An Answer to Two Treatises of John Can, Chapter 1 · Section 2

An Answer to Two Treatises of John Can · Chapter 1 · Section 2

p. 19SEC. II. CAN, Neceſsitie of Separation. pag. 29, 30.

NOne may heare, or joyne in Spirituall Communion with that Ministerie, which hath not a true vocation and calling by election, approbation, and ordination of that Faithfull people, where he is to administer: Id pag. 46. If their Parſons, Vicars, Pariſh Prieſts, Stipendiaries, &c. be, neither in election nor ordination made Miniſters agreeable to the Word of God, then is their Miniſterie falſe, unlawfull, Antichriſtian, and ſo conſequently they deale with the holy things of God. CAN. Stay §. 11. pag. 113. All theſe affirme, That whoſoever taketh upon him to preach, without a lawfull ſending, commeth in not by a lawfull election, and holy Church ordinance, but breaketh in againſt order, by force and favour of men, and by humane lawes, he is a Stranger, a thiefe, a murderer, according to Chriſts ſayings in Jolm 10. And thus have the old Writers expounded the places, as Iraeneus lib. 4. cap. 4 Clemens Alexan. lib. 1. Strom. Cypr. libs 1. Epiſt. 6. & 76. Didimus in Iohn 10. …upert in Iolm 10. & Theodoret ibid. and others.John 10But the preſent Ministeri… of the Eccleſiaſticall Aſſemblies of England, hath not a true vocation and calling by election, approbation and ordination of the Faithfull people where they Administer. Therefore none muſt heare, or joyne in Spirituall Communion with the preſent Miniſterie of the Eccleſiaſticall Aſſemblies of England.

Which of the Propoſitions the Non-conformiſts will denie I know not: but ſure J am, they are both theirs. Howbeit (it may be) they doe not ſo well weigh their owne Principles, as they ſhould; And hence it is, that their practice is not ſo strictly anſwerable to their Profeſſion, and therefore doe give just occaſion (I speake it with griefe) unto the Prelates, and their Paraſites, to inſinuate againſt them hypocriticall ends, in condemning ſo p. 20grievouſly the Miniſterie, worſhip, and government of the Engliſh Church, CAN. Neceſ. ſepar. Epiſt. to the Reader. What better ſhould we expect from them, who ſeek to put out the light againe, which hath been by themſelves chiefly revealed unto many. I know what I ſay, and have good experience of this thing.and yet to partake in the knowne evills and abuſes thereof. But for my part, I am otherwiſe minded than the Biſhops in this thing, and doe thinke, that they doe of conſcience condemne the ſtate of the Church, but doe not maturely conſider the responſive concluſions, which follow upon their Principles. For which cauſe I have written of purpoſe this Treatiſe, to prove they cannot juſtifie their Tenents againſt that Church, and stand members lawfully thereof.

ANSWER.

HANNIBAL ſaid once (ſaith M. Parker) There was not ſo much as one in all the enemies campe, that was called Giſco: In an Epiſt. publiſhed in the profane ſchiſ. of the Browniſts. Parker of the Croſſe. part 2. c. y. §. 2. As for thoſe of the Separation, who have confuted them more than wee? or who have vvritten more againſt them? Some things of truth they hold, with which we thinke it no more ſinne for us now to agree, than Cyprian once to agree with Novatianus in that which hee eſteemed right, &c. So whatſoever ſtirre or ſedition was moved by the unbeleeving Iewes, it was imputed to the Iews that were Chriſtians, who were thought to be all one with them. Caeſar. Baron. An…al. in anno 201. The impuritie of the Gnoſticks, was drawne to the defamation of all other Chriſtians, no difference being made between them Cicer. Parad. 2. M Sutel. tract. de diſc. ca. 15. pag. 165. Bell of Ch. Govern. cap. 12. pag. 151. 152. Bancroft, tract. of diſcip. cap. 33. pag. 430. 431. 432 Laus Querim. Eccleſ. pag. 62. 63. So whereas the Egyptians were diri, ventuſi, fa ibundi, jactantes, vani, liberi, nova um rerum cupientes: the Chriſtians, and all that are there dwelling, are thought to be the very ſame.So may it truly be ſaid now, Not ſo much as one of the Godly Miniſters, that ſuffer in England about the Diſcipline, that may deſervedly be called a Browniſt. And the Nonconformiſts doe no more lay the grounds of Separation, than the Reformed Churches ſowe the ſeede of Libertimiſme, and Anabaptiſtrie, which of all others they have moſt ſoundly confuted, and judiciouſly laid open to the world, without ſeeking to juſtifie ought, that elſewhere upon good reaſon they condemned to be evill. But it is no new thing to reproach them as the Authors of errors, hereſies, or ſchiſmes, who principally laboured the ſuppreſſing of them. No man cryed downe the Errour of the Manichees concerning a good God and an evill, ſo much as Auſtine: and yet their opinion is charged upon them that hold his opinion of abſolute Predeſtination. The poſitions of the Stoicks anſwere to the opinions p. 21of the Remonſtrants concerning Free Will and power in Man: but the contrary ſide is burdened therewith. The grounds of the Nonconformiſts ſtand directly oppoſite to the ſpeciall grounds of Separation, and yet they heare from ſome, that they be Separatiſts in heart, from others, that they have laid the foundation, and the Separatiſts build upon it, and that ſuch as have made anſwere to the Separatiſts, doe againſt conſcience put out the light, which hath been by themſelves chiefly revealed.

It is true, they complaine of abuſes in the Church (and not to excuſe humane frailty) ſometimes with heat and fervour exceſſive, and humbly ſue for reformation. But to ſeek redreſſe of what is out of order, is rather to endeavour the repaire of what is ruinous, than the plucking of it down. Jt is one thing dutifully to urge the proceeding of our Church unto perfection, another, ſchiſmatically to leave, and forſake her. Betwixt theſe two, there is as much difference, S. B. The raſing of the foundation, &c Epiſt. to the Reader.as is betweene that child that in tender affection reproveth, and laboureth the reformation of his Mother, whom he ſeeth by her indiſcreet behaviour to become a reproach among women; and him that under pretence of the hate of her uncomely behaviour, ſhould pluck out her bowells, and forſake her.

They complaine of abuſes remaining in the Reformation, not denying that a wonderfull and gracious reformation is already made, but moving to a through and perfect reformation of what is wanting and out of order. For willingly they confeſſe, that next unto the Lord God, every one of them is moſt deeply bound unto the Kings and Princes, whom he hath uſed as excellent inſtruments to deliver his Church here, out of the ſpirituall Egypt of Poperie. T.C. Repl. 1 fel. 155.This they willingly confeſſe before men, and in their prayers daily give moſt humble thanks to God for; And by their earneſt ſuite, and humble deſires, which they have for further reformation, they are ſo farre from unthankfulneſſe, that they deſire the heape of felicitie to the Church and Commonwealth.

Which of the Prophets doth not cry out againſt the Prieſts in time of the law? Againſt their pride, oppreſſion, covetouſneſſe, tyrannie; that they deſpiſed knowledge, oppoſed the true Prophets of the Lord, countenanced impietie and profaneneſſe, and ſhewed themſelves enemies to all goodneſſe? p. 22Did the Prophets then, who knew what it was to worke according to their owne Principles, teach a neceſſitie of Separation, or give preſidents to others to ſeparate by their example! In all ages of the Church, Platina in vita Marcellin. Hanc autem calamitatem, quam nostri paſſi ſunt, a Deo permiſſam refert. Euſeb. &c. Cypr. de duplici Marty…. Hic diſcrucior quod non paucos Pastores habeat eccleſia qui non ſolum non opponunt ſua corpora adverſus luporum incierſus, verum etiam ipfilupos agant, &c. Concil Nic. 1. ca. 2. Gratian. diſt. 48 ca 1. Leo ad Afri an. Epist. 85. Grat. diſt. 61. ca. 5. Hieron. ad O…e an. ep. ad. Nepoti. T.C. repl. 1. pag. 41. Ambr de offic. lib. 1. cap. 50 Grat diſt. 93. cap. 21. Ex quo i… Eccleſis, ſicut in imperio Romano, crevit avaritia, perit iex de ſacerdote, & viſia de Prpheta. Baſ in Aſceticis. Chry. deſacer.complaints have been made againſt abuſes of this nature by all ſorts, ancient and moderne, who never denyed the Churches where the true faith was profeſſed, to be the true Churches of Chriſt: Cyprian complaines thus, Here I am grievouſly troubled, that the Church hath many Paſtors, who not onelyonly doe not oppoſe their bodies againſt the incurſions of wolves, but alſo they themſelves doe play the parts of wolves, whiles they deſtroy the ſouls of the ſimple, they themſelves ſerving their bellies, gaine and ambition; and make merchandiſe of the Word of God, and adulterate it with ungodly opinions. The Counſell of Nic… makes complaint, That many things in the admiſſion of Presbyters and Biſhops was done contrary to the Rule. Leo, That the office of a Paſtor, and government of the Church was committed to men altogether unworthy. Hierom reproacheth the Biſhop of Ieruſalem, that he could, as himſelfe boaſted, make in one houre a thouſand Clarks: and condemneth it in others; That Clarkes run to the Biſhops ſuffraganes certaine times of the yeere, and bringing ſome ſumme of money, they are ordained, being choſen of none. Ambroſe ſheweth the abuſe in his time, to be this, If a man asked ſome of them who preferred them to be Priests, anſwers is made by and by, that the Archbiſhop for an hundred ſhillings ordained me Biſhop. Nazianzon in Apolog. That they which handle holy things with unwaſhen hands, and polluted ſouls, are more in number than they, over whom they rule; Miſeri in …iotate, miſeri in splendore. And ad Maximum. Ad Paſtoralis muneris adminiſtrationem nihil contulerunt, ui … quod comam quam turpiter alere studuerunt, raſerunt. And in the ſame place: De pecumiis jam in eccleſia bellum geritus. When Baſil: of an Heathen was made a Christian, he ſaith That he did greatly wonder at the diſſentions, which were in the Church concerning Faith; and the contentions of the Governors: becauſe every one leaving the doctrine of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, did challenge to himſelf, by his owne authoritie, certaine rules and orders: Alſo J perceived diſſentions to ariſe from hence, becauſe there was no diſcipline, no knowledge of God, or it was perve…ſe if any. Chryſoſtome; Neque immeritos ſolum adleg… ſed & idone foreign. The Toletan Councells complaine, p. 23that for eighteen yeeres, no Synod was held, Whence came groſſe ignorance, and corruption of the Miniſters. It would be too long to ſet downe at large the grave, ſharpe and lamentable complaints, that Nicholas de Clemang; Petrus de Aliaco, See Nichol. Clemang. speculum Eccleſ. Petrus de Aliaco. reformat. Eccle. Bern. in Conv. S. P. ſer. 1. Heu Heu Domine Deus. Ipſi ſunt in perſecutione tua primi, qui videatur in Eccl ſia tua primatum genere: Id. in Cant. ſer. 76. Parum est noſtris vigilibus, quod non ſervant, niſi & perdant, Gildas. See Vſſer de primord. Eccleſ. Br…. H…oper on the 8 Command. pag. 74 79. Whitaker. de pont. Rom. preſat. ad Audito res. In ſch ſmatis remedium hoc primo inven…um est, quod ipſo morbo magis pericudeſum fuiſſe, molti virt ſancti & prudentes judicarunt. Quod quamquam non ſtatim apparuit, tamen miſera experientia demceps demonſtravit. Tum enim ambitio irepſit in Eccleſiam, & Epiſcopi caeperunt non minus de dignitate ſuarum ſedium, quam de Chriſti grege cogitare, &c. Gregor. Nazianz. orat 2. pag 399. They intrude themſelves unto the moſt holy Miniſteries with unwaſhen hands and minds, as they ſay, and before they are worthy to come unto the Sacraments, they affect the Sanctuarie it ſelfe, & circum ſacraſanctam menſam premuntur & protenduntur, eſteeming this order not an example of vertue, but a maintenance and helpe of life.Bernard, and our Gildas, have publiſhed againſt the Eccleſiaſticall Governours of their times, for their ignorance, pride; luxurie, riot, drunkenneſſe, perſecution of all true godlineſſe, covetouſneſſe, rapine, contentions, brawles, ſimonie, and what not? And ſince the time of Reformation, not the Inconformiſts only, but the godly Biſhops, and Martyrs themſelves, have obſerved, bewailed, and reproved theſe abuſes. Father Latimer, in his Sermons generally, but in his Sermon of the Plough, is plaine and large againſt the pompe and idleneſſe of Biſhops, who Lord it over, but feed not the Flock of Chriſt, muzzle the people in ignorance and profaneneſſe, live riotouſly, hunt after preferment, but ſeek not the winning of ſouls unto God. Biſhop Hooper complaines, ſaying, It is great pity to ſee how farre that office of a Biſhop is degenerated from the originall in the Scripture, it was not ſo at the beginning, when Biſhops were at the beſt, as the Epiſt. of Paul to Titus teſtifieth; that willed him to ordaine in every Citie of Creete a Biſhop. And as ſharply and cloſely he cenſureth the Biſhops of his daies, for arrogating to themſelves ſo much witt, as to Rule and ſerve in both States, in the Church, and in the Civill Policie, and to the contrary, profeſſeth, That one of them is more than any man is able to ſatiſfie; and that it is not poſſible that one ſhould doe both well, and that it is a great overſight of the Princes, and higher Powers of the earth, ſo to charge them with two burdens, when none of them, as he ſaith, is able to beare the leaſt of them both. The accuſations which are brought againſt both the Miniſters and members in the Separatiſts Congregations are not few, nor light, nor ſuch as can be wiped away with reproaches. All theſe have borne witneſſe of the great diſorders and corruptions, p. 24which have been in the Church of God, but they never deemed the ſocietie was to be abandoned, becauſe of theſe great and erroneous blemiſhes, rather they ſought the redreſſe and reformation of what was amiſſe.

If ſome things of man be mixed with that which is of God, as humane ſuperioritie with divine Miniſterie, the pure wheat with ſome chaſſe, the holy Sacraments with rites ſavouring of ſuperſtition, a found Chriſtian is not to caſt away what is of God, as a nullitie, fruitleſſe, defiled, Antichriſtian, Idolatrous, becauſe ſomewhat humane is annexed unto them, nor in defence of the good to be charged or condemned, as going croſſe to that which he taught againſt the evill. Aug. de fid. & bon. oper. tom. 4.4. Nos vero ad piam doctrinam pertinere arbitramur, ut & canes in eccleſia propter pacem eccleſiae toleremus. Iun. animad. in Bell. contr 5. l. 1 ca. 3. l. 1. ca. 3. not. 24. Speaking of Popiſh ordination, ſaith, A parte ad totum non procedit argumentatio: In ordinatione aliquid nihil: fac…unt, ergo nihili faciunt ordinationem. Quod Dei, quod eccleſiae in ea eſt, permagni facimus; quod a malo eſt facimus nihilt. Calvinus autem eo in lo…o agit de rutibus adventitiis ſolum, non de ordinatione tota ſimpliciter. Impoſition of hands, whereby the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit were given unto Beleevers, was peculiar to the Apoſtles. Act. 8.14, 15.19.6. & vide Beza annot. major. in Act. 19. Synopſ. purior. Theol. diſput. 24. §. 32.33. Jus Paſtores …gend…, eſt penes Eccleſiam, ac …o…inde p…bi convenit cum Presbyteris. Ius eos ordinandi ſolis Presbyteris eſt propri…. CAN. Neceſ. of ſep. c. 1. p. 8. Jun. animad in Bell. cont. 5. l. 1. ca. 3. not. 9, 10. Bell. de Cler. l. 1. ca. 3. §. Accedat.Acts 8:14Acts 8:15Acts 8:19Acts 8:6Acts 19If an unmeet Miniſter be ſet in office, by whomſoever the election is made, he is of men, or humane: but forthwith there followeth not a nullitie of his Miniſterie. If a fit Miniſter be choſen diſorderly, in that choice there is ſomewhat humane, but the Office or Miniſterie is of God. In the body we can diſtinguiſh between the ſubſtance and the ſickneſſe which cleaveth unto it; betwixt the ſubſtance of ſome member, and a bunch or ſwelling, which is a deformitie, but deſtroyeth not the nature, taketh not away the uſe of that part or member.

But what anſwere can be given to the argument drawn from their grounds? which Propoſition in the ſyllogiſme propounded, can they denie, ſeeing they are both theirs?

If both be theirs, they cannot denie them, but he that hath ſeen you by your writings only, knoweth by experience, if he hath made any tryall, it is not ſafe to truſt your bare ſaying, or confident Aſſertion.

The Nonconformiſts diſclaime the Major, as none of theirs: and the Aſſumption, ſo farre as it is true, makes nothing againſt them.

Firſt, the Nonconformiſts never held Ordination by the people, where he is to adminiſter, to be neceſſarie or eſſentiall in the calling of a Miniſter. For in their opinion, ordination p. 25belongeth not to the communitie of the Faithfull but to the Presbyterie, or Colledge Eccleſiaſticall, and may and ought to be performed by the Presbyters of neighbouring Congregations, if they have none of their owne, or not a competent number. Thus you your ſelfe relate their Poſition. Moreover, every officer in the Church, muſt be ordained by impoſition of hands of the Elderſhip, the whole Church joyning with them in fasting and prayer.

Secondly, They give not the ſole power of Election to the communitie of the Faithfull, but require their conſent in the election, by the guidance and direction of their Governors, See Calvin Epiſt. 131. & Inſtit. l. 4. cap. 3. §. 15. T. C. repl. 2. pag. 1. 196.197. Iun. Eccleſ. 3. p. 1. Non ſolus judicat, ſed praeeunte & moderante Clero & Presbyterio: ſoret enim proclive labi in illud incommodum, ſi populus ſolus eligerit. Non eſt autem ab …o tantum periculum, ubi conjunctus est Clerus, & actioncan dirigit Presbyterium, praeſertim conſilio & auctoritate vicinorum Epiſcoporum eccleſiarumque accedente? Iun. contr. 5. l. 1. ca. 7. not. 24. Aurcolus in 4. Sent. diſt. 24. art. 2. ra. 3. ea quae ſunt ordi num omnes recipiunt immediate a Chriſto. Horb. Irenic. l. 2. cap. 11. prop. 13. pag. 179. Itaque potest cuiquam, &c. Fr. de Victor. in rel. de poteſt. eccle. Q 2. W E. The Church plea. §. 8. pag. 78. A diſpute. par. 3. cap. 8. pag. 167. Of him who is obtruded and thruſt upon a people without their owne election, it is vvell ſaid by Zanchius, That he can neither exerciſe his Miniſterie with a good conſcience, nor yet be profitable to the people. See Fulk in Rhem. in Ephe. 4.13. As ſome people be of that diſpoſition, that they know better to be governed, than to governe. Grat. de jure belli. lib. 1. c. 3. pag. 49. ſo it fareth with ſome Chriſtians, that it is better they ſhould be provided for, than left to provide for themſelves.Eccl 3Eph 4:13and the Eccleſiaſticall Colledge, to whom the Government of the Church is committed. They allow not that every ſmall companie ſhould doe as they pleaſe, or ſtand upon their owne bottome; But as the Church is to be governed by common counſell, and conſent of the Eccleſiaſticall Colledge, ſo the election and choice of the Paſtor or Teacher, is to be made by the direction and counſell of the Senate. A Paſtor ſhould not be thruſt upon the people without their knowledge and approbation, neither ſhould the people proceed therein without direction of the Governours.

Thirdly, The Miniſter doth not derive his power or authoritie, either vertually or formally from the people, but immediately from Chriſt, whoſe ſervant he is, for the Churches uſe and benefit, in whoſe name he muſt execute his office, whoſe meſſage he muſt deliver, whoſe ſeales he muſt diſpence, and to whom he muſt give account. This is that which Franciſcus de Victoria, the maſter of Canus affirmeth (though his words be ignorantly drawne to another purpoſe, I ſuppoſe you know by whom) That all Biſhops doe derive Iuriſdiction and power immediately from God.

Fourthly, If the people have given away their power of election, or be not fit to chuſe, through their ignorance or ſimplicitie, p. 26or that libertie be taken from them, they conceive it to be a maime or defect in the calling of the Miniſter; but this defect doth not make a nullitie of the office, or acts done by vertue of that calling, which he hath: For in every true Church, where the Word of God is intirely Preached, and received, and the Sacraments for ſubſtance rightly adminiſtred, there is a true Miniſterie, and a true calling to the Miniſterie, though in ſome things maimed and faultie. In the Church of God, and no where elſe, all ſound and ſaving truth is to be found: for the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth; and where the profeſſion of all ſaving Truth, with the right adminiſtration of the Sacraments is found, there is the Church, which ordinarily cannot be had, maintained or continued, without a true Miniſterie, nor that without a true calling.

The ſaving truth of God, Gratian. Decret diſt. 63. cap. 22, 23.and a true Miniſterie are eſſentiall to the true Church, conſiſting of all it parts, and partaker of the Ordinances of grace. Something of the ſe remaine in every complete ſocietie, Platima in vita Benedict. 2. In the Primitive Church, the people which were Laymen, choſe their Paſtors, and for a long time the Biſhops of Rome themſelves were not choſen without the conſent of the Princes, &c. and the Emperors were poſſeſſed of it as their right, ever ſince the daies of Ch…rles. Bilſon. Chriſt. Subject. part 3. pag. 168. Sol. Iarchi. 2 Mac. 4.7, 8, 26, 27. Ioſeph Antiq: lib. 20. cap. 18. & l. 18. cap. 4. Ctrnel. Bertram. de pol. Iudaic. cap. 18. Concil. Laed c. cap. 13. Non est permittendum turbis, &c. Iun. animadv. in Bl…. contr 5. lib. 1. ca 7, not. 16.17.2 Macc 4:72 Macc 4:82 Macc 4:262 Macc 4:27which hath any thing of the Church, and for ſubſtance and eſſence, they are true in every true and lawfull complete ſocietie; But as the profeſſion of the truth may be found in all fundamentall points, though mixed with many errours: ſo for Truth and exiſtence, the Miniſterie may be lawfull, though in many particulars delinquent and deficient.

In the true Church then, there is a true Miniſterie, But the true Church hath continued there by the bleſſing of God, where the Election of Miniſters hath been given away by the people, or taken from them.

In later times, the High Prieſthood was bought and ſold for monie, and ſomtimes it was made annuall, that every yeere new Prieſts were created, as thoſe Governours, whom Kings change every yeere: that as every man would lay out more or leſſe monie, he ſhould obtaine, or loſe the Prieſthood. Which may be ſeen in the examples of Iaſon and Menelaus. Nevertheleſſe, ſo long as the Church of the Jewes continued the Church of God the Prieſthood continued alſo.

In the Primitive Churches, when the people had a voice in the choice of their Teachers, oftentimes there were factions in the Church, the people ſtood againſt their Guides, and the Guides againſt their people, and the people were divided one p. 27againſt another. And ſometimes, either through ſloth, or for peace, the Paſtors left the election of Officers to the people, Ruffin. lib. 11. c. 10.11. Theod. hiſt. lib. 4. ca. 6. Auguſt. Epiſt. 110. & 225. Socrat. hiſt. lib. 7. ca. 34, 35. 39. Concil Antioch. cap. 18. Sozom. hiſt. l. 2. ca. 18, 19. Naziatrz. in Epit. patris. Euagr. l. 2. cap. 5.8. Theodor. l. 5. ca. 23. Gratian. dist. 63. ca. 11, 12. Cypr. l. 3. epiſt. 14. & 10. W.B. The Church. plea. §. 8. pag. 90. T.C. repl. 2. par. 1. p. 212. Cypr. l. 2. epiſt. 5. & l. 4. Epiſt. 5. & l. 3. epiſt. 22. and the like he did for Optatus, Satuus Caeſernius & Numidicus. Calv. Inſt. l 4. c. 4. §. 10. Auguſt. epiſt. 223. Theod. l. 1. ca. 23. Socrat. hist. l. 2. ca. 19. Sozom. l. 3. c. 20. Socrat. hist. lib. 7. ca. 28. W.B. The Church plea. § 8. pag. 80. Centur. 1. ca. 4. Centur. 6, 7. col. 591. Centur. 2. c. 7. p. 134. 135.and the people challenged it unto themſelves, and ſometimes againe they took it from their people, and challenged it to themſelves. But in the mids of theſe broyles, he was accounted a true Miniſter, who was elected, whether by the Guides, or by the people, or by the Emperour, ſo he taught the doctrine of Salvation truely. And if this be not admitted, what ſhall be done, when the people and their Elders be divided in the choice of a fit Officer or Guide. If the people prevaile againſt their Elders, he whom they chuſe is no Miniſter to them, becauſe not choſen by their Suffrages: if the Elders againſt the people, he whom they approve is no Miniſter, becauſe he wants the peoples voice. And if the people diſſent, they muſt ſeparate and excommunicate one another, becauſe to the one part he is no Miniſter, whom the other approve.

Though Cyprian teach, That Ministers ſhould be choſen by the people, yet this forme of Election was not in ſome Churches in Cyprians time, who were eſteemed true Churches, and true Miniſters. And Cyprian himſelfe appointed Aurelius a Reader, without advice of the Church, by the authoritie of his fellow-Miniſters then preſent.

Pinianus was ordained of the people, Elder of the Church, againſt Auguſtines minde and will. Athanaſius made Frumentius Biſhop, and ſent him to the Indies, he created Presbyters in other Churches, and when he came into Egypt, as many as he knew addicted to the Arian haereſie, hee put them out of their place, and whoſe Faith he tryed and approved, to them he committed the Churches. The Church of Cyzicena gave this honor to Atticus, that without his conſent, it could not chuſe a Biſhop. You will not denie but the Miniſterie of the Church for the firſt, ſecond, and third, and fourth hundred yeeres after Chriſt, was true, and might be joyned withall. For thus writeth a friend of yours (and as it is ſuppoſed by your aide.) It is affirmed by the Centuries of Magdenburg, that from Chriſts aſcenſion, unto Trajans time, which is about an hundred yeers, every particular Church was governed by the Biſhops, Elders and Deacons, and deſcribing the ſtate of Christian Churches, from Trajans reigne unto Severus (that is, from the yeere of Chriſt 100 to 195) thus they write, The order of Government was popular, for all Churches had equall power of teaching purely the p. 28Word of God, adminiſtration of the Sacraments, excommunication of hereticks and wicked perſons, looſing the penitent, the election and ordination of Miniſters, and the depoſition of them againe for juſt cauſe. And even unto Conſtantines time, The Primitive purity of Church Government was not yet defloured, with the dregges of mans invention. …ig…em. in Apoc. 12. pag. 505. 506.Rev 12Neither had Satan brought in Prelaticall pride into the ſheepfold of the Lord; but Paſtors looked every one to the health of his owne flock. And a litle after he citeth Epiphanius, …. …. Ibid. pag. 90.Hierome, Ambroſe, Cyrill, Hilarie, and Gregorie Nazianzene, as making for him in the matter of chuſing Miniſters. But moſt certaine it is, within this ſpace of time, many things were done, in the election and ordination of Miniſters, which are directly croſſe to that which you require as eſſentiall in his calling, See Iun. eccl. l. 3. cap. 1. See S…crat. l. 4. …. … 21. Gr…e. 16, 17. &c. 35. Gr. lat. 29. & ca. 36. Gr. ca. 30. lat. Sozom. l. 6. ca. 18.20. Evagr. p. 2. c. 8. Socr. hiſt. 13. l. 4. c. 10.33. & Theo. l. 4. c. 6. Ambr. offic. l. 1. Bilſ. Chriſtian Sub. part 2. pag. 28 2. Sozom. l. 7. cap. 8. Socrat. h…ſt. l. 5. ca. 8. Iust in Novel. Inſt. 223. cap. 28.9. Concil. To…an. ca. 2… Greg. epist. l…b. 40. ca. 78. To Conſtantia the Empreſſe. The Biſhop of Salona was ordered, neither …, nor any reſponſarie witting thereof; which thing was never attempted under any of the Princes, your predeceſſors, &c. Yet I obeying their graces Precepts, did from my heart remit unto the ſaid Maximus, this his preſumption, as freely, as if he had been ordered by my ſelf, &c. Concil. tom. 2. Concil. Pariſien. can. 8.if at any time you can prove that all things were obſerved; which I doe not beleeve.

Ambroſe himſelfe was choſen Biſhop, when he was onelyonly Catechumenus, before he was baptized; ſo that he was conſtrained to teach that which himſelfe had not learned; yeſterday catechiſed, to day a Biſhop. The Election in all things not to be approved as conſonant to the rule (for the Canons were ſtrong againſt it, and Saint Paul ſeemeth not willing that a novice ſhould be a Biſhop) but never thought or eſteemed to be none at all. Of the election of Nectarius, ſee Sozomene and Socrates. Iuſtinian ordained, If any man build a Church, or houſe of prayer, and would have Clerkes to be planted there, if hee allow maintenance for them, and place ſuch as be worthy, they ſhall be ordained upon his Nomination. And the Toletan Councel decreed. That as long as the founders of Churches doe live, they ſhall be ſuffered to have the chiefe and continuall care of the ſaid Churches, and ſhall offer fit Rectors to the Biſhop to be ordained: And if the Biſhop neglecting the founders ſhall preſume to place any others, let him know, that his admiſſion ſhall be voide, and to his ſhame, but if ſuch as they chuſe be prohibited by the Canons as unworthy, then let the Biſhop take to promote ſome whom he thinketh more worthy. In theſe particulars, the cōſent of the people is too much abridged, as in ſome other particulars they tooke too much upon them, or they gave their right away, when yet the p. 29calling of the Miniſter, or the office whereunto he was called in thoſe caſes, was not a nullitie. Jn many things (ſaith the Councell of Paris, which was the complaint of the Nicene Councell long before) the old cuſtom is neglected, and the decrees of the Canons are broken. But the Miniſterie of the Word, and Sacraments was not made voide thereby.

The godly learned, conſonant to the Scriptures, have evermore diſtinguiſhed betwixt an error in admiſſion into an office, and a flat nullitie of the office it ſelfe. The Miniſters election into his office, Neque tamen ubique ea in parte felix fuit Eccleſia: alicubi enim haeretici locum docendi adepti ſunt: alicubi etiam omiſſa accurata diligentia, invocatione & electione, minus idonei rerum habenis ſunt potiti, ut Irenaeus ad Victorem ſcribens teſtatur. Illiric. catalog. test. lib. 2. tit. Eccleſ. Gubern. Hatina in vita Dam…f 2. Adeo enim inolevera… hic mos, ut jam cuique ambitioſo liceret Petri ſedem inv dere. Id. in vita Benedict. 4. Vbi cum ipſis opibus laſcivire caepit Eccleſia Dei, verſis ejus cultoribus a ſeveritate ad liſciviam, &c. T C. repl. 1. pag. 23. Ibid. Leo. Epist. 40. Concil. Ni…. 2. Auguſt. oper brev. collat. cap 5. & …i. 2 con…r ep…ſet Parmen. ca. 13. Georg. P…nce An…t ſol. 66.ought to be according to the Rules of the Word: before he enter into the Miniſterie, he ſhould be blameleſſe, apt to teach, ſound in Faith; and much more is he to approve himſelf to be ſuch a one in the execution, conſidering that falls in the execution are much more dangerous to the Church, than before. But defects in the election doe not make the calling it ſelfe utterly unlawfull. If one blame-worthy be elected or tolerated after, he is not to be reputed as one that miniſters altogether without a calling. Therefore the Non-conformiſts never taught that the Miniſter is not to be heard, or that wee muſt not hold communion with him in the Ordinances of Worſhip, who is not elected and ordained by the ſocietie where he is to adminiſter; though they maintain the conſent of the people to be eſſentiall to the full compleat call of a Miniſter to that place and people. Thus they doe profeſſe in anſwere to this and ſuch like accuſations. Where (ſaith T.C.) doe they reaſon thus, The Word of God is not preached, becauſe the Mniſters are not rightly proved and elected, &c. Is it all one to ſay it is not purely preached, & it is not truly preached, &c. They nver ſaid, that there is no Miniſterie in England, nor yet doe ever conclude, that there is no Word, nor Sacraments, nor Diſcipline, nor Church.

Herein they affirme or teach nothing, but what the godly learned in all ages have acknowledged. Anatolius conſecrated of Dioſcorus, was approved of Leo and Tharaſius. The Orthodox Fathers profeſſed, ſo the Donatists would returne to the Catholike, true and Apoſtolicall Faith or Doctrine, they would not diſallow their Biſhops, that they might underſtand (ſaith Augustine) that Catholikes did not deteſt Christian conſecration, but humane errour. We uſe this moderation (ſaith George Prince Anhalt) That they who are called forth to Parochiall offices, if they promiſe that they for the time to come, will preach the Word purely, and adminiſter the Sacraments, according p. 30to Christs inſtitution, we receive them, Horumque contenti vocatione, See Grat. Decret. 2 part. ca. 2. Qu. 7. ca. 8.18, 19, 20. &. ca. 1. qu. 1. ca. 52. Socrat. hist. l. 1. ca. 9. Art. Smal. par. 3. art. 10. Stay. §. 11. p. 133. Par. in Heb. 5.4. & Stay. §. 4. p. 30. Par. in Rom. 10.14, 15. Legitima autem vocatio eccleſiae eſt, quae in quâvis eccleſiâ publica authoritate ordinis cauſâ ad aedificationem inſtituta. Dan. in 1. Tim 5. pag. 363.364. & pag. 343. Stay. §. 4. pag. 30. & §. 11. pag. 113. For. Iren. l. 2. cap. 11 prop. 13. tit. de Haeretic. Certe ad agnoſcimus de omnibus clericis haereticis, quoad jus liciti exercitii, & quoad alios u…ab corum communione abſtincant, & cis non obediant: ſed non eſt accipiendum de onmibus haereticis quoad valorem exercitii in Sacramentorum administratione: licet iniustae eorum cenſurae, etiā ipſo iure nullae ſint.Heb 5:4Rom 10:14Rom 10:151 Tim 5& muneris demandati commiſſione, ordinationem & manus impoſitionem non iteremus. So Art. Smal. Si. Epiſcopi ſuo officio recte fungerentur, & cur am eccleſiae & Evangelii gererent, &c.

Pareus is prayſed by your ſelf, as an interpreter one of a thouſand, and oft cited by you in this matter, as one that condemneth the hearing of them that are unlawfully ſent. But according to Pareus. He is lawfully ſent, who is called, according to the order which is instituted by publique authoritie in every Church, for order ſake, and to edification. Danaeus ſharply taxeth the manner of calling Miniſters, which be conceived to be in uſe in England, and is againe and againe alledged by you in this queſtion: but he doth admoniſh withall, that we muſt diſtinguiſh betweene a calling maimed, and none at all, Ex his autem omnibus (ſaith hee) apparet quam nulla ſit, vel non legitima eorum verbi Dei Ministrorum, vel eccleſiae Pastorum vocatio, qui ſolius regis, vel reginae, vel patroni, vel epiſcopi, vel Archiepiſcopi authoritate, diplomate, bullis, juſſu & judicio fit vel eligitur. Id quod dolendum eſt, adhuc fieri in iis eccleſiis, quae tamen purum Dei verbum habent & ſequuntur, veluti in media Anglia. Nam Anglos homines alio qui ſapientiſſimos, acutiſſimos, & pientiſſimos, in iſtis tamen papiſticae idololatriae, & tyrannidis reliquiis agnoſcendis & tollendis, ſcientes prudenteſque caecutire mirum eſt. Itaque praeclare ſentiunt, qui omnem illam chartulariam & epiſcopaticam curionum & paſtorum Eccleſiae creandorum rationem, item ex ſolo epiſcopi conſenſu, & diplomate miniſtrorum verbi caeleſtis vocationem, approbationem & inaugurationem damnant, tollendamque ex reformata ad Dei verbum Eccleſiâ cenſent: quòd ordo Dei verbo praeſcriptus in ordinatione hujuſmodi perſonarum ſit praetermiſſus, ac violatus, ſicut perspicue apparet. Denique & Senatui Eccleſiaſtico & populo Chriſtiano jus omne ſuum atque ſuffragium miſere ſit hac ratione & in hoc genere vocationum eccleſiaſticarum ademptum, & in unum quendam Epiſcopum magnâ tyrannide atque abuſu tranſlatum. Dominus Deus talibus corruptionibus, quae adhuc in Eccleſiis ipſius ſuperſunt, & defenduntur, mederi magna ſua miſericordia dignetur & velit, quae tandem certè magnam eccleſiae Dei ruinam ſecum trahent & ipſum ſacroſanctum verbi miniſterium reddent efficientque vel mercenarium, vel omnino contemptibile & abjectum. Quod Dominus avertat.

p. 31Ʋna modo Quaeſtio ſupereſt in hoc argumento, Nimirum quid de corum adminiſtratione ſit ſentiendum, qui non ſunt legitime vocati, atque utrum iis ſana conſcientia adhaerere debeamus? In quâ certe diſtinguendum eſt, Aut enim eſt omnine illegitima vocatio ejus, qui eccleſiam aliquam adminiſtrat, vel non eſt omnino illegitima, ſed tantum ex parte. Illegitima omnino eſt ea, in qua omnia Dei verbo praeſcripta, ſunt praetermiſſa vel violata, ut ſi quis ſeipſum intruſerit privatâ authoritate. Non omnino, ſed tantum ex parte illegitima eſt ea, in quâ tantum quaedam ex illis non obſervata fuerunt, ſed praetermiſſa. T.C. to his Siſter An. Stubs. This is the ſtone that you often, or rather alwayes ſtumble at, That if there be any thing wanting in the Church, which the Lord hath required, that in ſtead you ſhould thereof conclude, that the Church is with us imperfect; you conclude it is no Church at all. Whereas in the conſtitution of a mans body, ſome parts are required to the being of a man, as the Head, heart, &c. and ſome to comelineſſe, as hands, &c. So it is in the body of a Church: ſome things are required to the being of a Church, and other things to the beauty and perfection of it. If it be not of the being of a Church, alwayes to have a Miniſterie, much leſſe is it of the being of the Church, alwayes to have the free choice thereof.Ergo cujus omnino illegitima vocatio est, is certè pro privato habendus eſt, ac hujuſmodi vocatio pro nulla. Itaque neque ſacramenta conferrè poteſt, neque reliqua negotia eccleſiae gerere, & quae geſſit pro nullis habentur, niſi fortaſſe eſſet extraordinaria ejus vocatio, id est, quae ſignis teſtimoniiſque certis a Deo confirmata eſſet. Solaenim propagati Evangelii & fructus qui inde multus emergit, conſideratio non confirmat hujuſmodi omnino illegitimam vocationem, utique neque faetus enatus illegitimam copulam, quae interceſſit inter adulteros. Vitium autem illud tolli poteſt, ſi poſtea ordine & legitime vocetur is, qui primum illegitime in Miniſterio verſabatur. Qui autem ex partetantum illegitime eſt electus & vocatus, veluti ſi per Simoniam quis munus adeptus est, & non legitimo populi vel Senatus eccleſiaſtici conſenſu, conſenſu tamen gradum obtinet, non eſt habenda pro omnino nulla hujuſmodi vocatio, ſed vitium illud est corrigendum. Itaque isti Sacramenta conferre poſſunt, quia utcunque non omnino veram & ſatis legitimam vocationē habeant, habent tamen aliquam. Sic Scribae & Phariſaei in cathedra Moſis ſedebant. Sic Caiaphas in Pontificatu ſummo crat, quem pretio redemerat. Itaque exemplo & Apoſtolorum & Chriſti ipſius, qui eos monuit & reprehendit, non autem ſeceſſionem a corpore Eccleſiae fecit, ab iis nos ſegregare in alium caetum non debemus, nec a toto Eccleſiae corpore (Jd enim eſſet Donatiſtarum haereſin revocare) ſed pacem Eccleſiae, quantum in nobis est, colere nos oportet, etſi illud vitium quod in eorum perſonis & electione inhaeret, damnare oportet, & quantum poſſumus tum emendare, tum etiam emendatum velle.

Hac ratione fit, ut etiam a ſacrificulis Papisticis collatus Baptiſmus non ſit in Eccleſia Dei repetendus, & pro nullo habendus. p. 32Etſi enim in Eccleſiae Dei illegitimam vocationem Papistici Sacrificuli habent, tamen ex conſenſu populi habent aliquam. Eſt autem aliud (ut ait Auguſt.) Auguſt. contr. Parmenian. l. c. 13.aliquid prorſus non habere, aliud autē aliquid pernicioſè habere; aliud autē aliquid ſalubriter habere. Quod tertium ſolum nobis eligendum eſt. Sed tamen, uti Magiſtratus vitio creatus, Magiſtratus tamen eſt propter populi conſenſum, Lib. 5. de l…ng Latin.quemadmodum docet Varro: ita iſti Sacrifici, etſi vitio creati ſunt Epiſcopi & Presbyteri, ut foreign, potius quam foreign, ſint meritò appellandi, tamen quadantenus Presbyteri ſunt & Epiſcopi, praeſertim apud eum populum qui in eo conſenſit. Thus farre Danaeus, whoſe teſtimonie I have rehearſed at large, that every man may ſee with what fidelitie you quote Authors, 1 Admonit. p. 1. CAN. Neceſ. of ſep. c. 4. §. 2. p. 173.as making for you. You cite out of the admonition, that the Non-conformiſts complaine, That they have not ſcarce the face of a Church. But this accuſation, long ſince hath been anſwered, that in ſaying the face of the Church doth not ſo much appeare (for ſo the whole proceſſe of their book doth declare, that they meane when they ſay, That we are ſcarce come to the outward face of the ſame:) T. C. repl. 1. p. 175. Albeit I have ſhewed how u… true it is, that the admonition affirmeth, that there is no Church in England, yet I cannot paſſe by the ſecret Philoſophy, whereby Mr. Doctor would prove that the Authors of the admonition affirme it T.C. repl. 1. p. 23. T.C. repl. 1 p. 51. & 2. repl. par. 1. p. 369. Hoſ. 4.6. CAN. Neceſ. of Sep. p. 9. & 31. T.C. repl. 2. par. 1. p. 273.Hos 4:6they grant that wee have the true Church of God: but that for want of thoſe ordinances which it ſhould have, and through certaine the deformed rags of Poperie, which it ſhould not have, the Church doth not appeare in her native colours, and ſo beautifull, as it is meet ſhe ſhould be prepared to ſo glorious an Husband, as the Son of God.

Maſter Cartwright ſeverely reprehendeth the abuſes of the Ignorant Miniſters, which in reſpect of the place which they occupie, are Idols: becauſe they ſtand for that, and make ſhew of that, which they are not: and therupon he addeth, admit you them as often as you will, the Lord pronounceth, that they ſhall be no Miniſters to him, which have no knowledge. This you cite many times. But in two things, Maſter Cartwright explaineth himſelfe: firſt, That through ignorance of that which they doe, ſome of them may be good men, and ſecondly, that his meaning was to note, how unworthy they are, as of the office, ſo of the name of a Miniſter of the Goſpel; not to make void their Miniſterie? ſuch as it is, in the adminiſtration of the Sacraments, which faith hee, I confeſſe, as in the Popiſh Prieſts Baptiſme, for that they be the publike officers appointed thereto, although unduely adminiſtred, to be the holy Sacraments of God.

Out of Maſter Brightman, B…ight. in Apoc. 3.Rev 3you make a large diſcourſe of the baſe and ſhamefull beggerlineſſe of the Clergie; as that the p. 33Curates are both in very deed, and in all mens account, a company of beggarly fellows, and thoſe that by means of their more full purſes, walke more luſtily, they run up and downe, bribe, impudently, importunately begge, and flatter, CAN. Neceſſ. of Sep. p. 19, 20.21.to compaſſe Eccleſiaſticall promotions, &c. But you tell us not, how he doth immediately after, in many words, and with ſtrong reaſons, conſonant to the Non-conformiſts Principles, diſprove and cenſure your Separation, as wicked and ungodly, which becauſe you omit, I will preſent unto the Reader. Sed nunquidergo (ſaith he) deſtituti ſumus ab omni bono? nequaquam; ſed gemino adhuc fruimur electis ſalutari: quorum primum est, introitus Chriſti ad …os qui aperiunt, Secundum ſuaviſſimum, eorundem apud Chriſtum accubatio. Illud eſt dulciſſimum ſolatium recipiendi Christum, quod percipiunt Sancti, quoties ad verbum praedicatum aperiri corda per fidem opera Spiritus ſentiunt. Tunc enim ingreditur & nobiſcum caenat, Parker of the Croſſe p…t 2. cap. 9 § 2. pag 113. The ſecond ſlander of the ceremonies …ccuſeth us for Dona…iſts, whom the Anabaptiſts …vive, with either of whom have we to doe? For beſides that wee make no Separation, as they did then, and there doe now we are as for both from h…ir judgement, and from their practice, as our …ſers, &c. The firſt poſition of the Donatiſts was, That the Church is pure, without ſpot, and without wrinkle in this life, and whereas Chriſtian Churches tolerated famous men, advanced alſo one Caecilan, accuſed of re…a, ſe, they held it their duty to ſeparate from them, as being no true Churches. … ſee here a perfect image of the Browniſts, and of the Anabaptiſts, but not ſo much as any li…ament of any Engliſh Proteſtant Preacher, that is deſirous of reformation.impertiendo ſeipſum benigniſſimè & jucundiſſime; quemadmodum quidem Zachaeum cupientem illum videre, & in Sycomorum aſcendentem deſcendere juſſit, & ſibi parare apud ſe hoſpitium. Luk. 19.5, &c. Nec foreign caenat, qui ſic amplectentibus eum hoc iis tribuit, ut filii Dei fiant. Joh, 1.12. Ille viciſſim nos excipit, ut un… cum eo caenemus, quoties integris animis accedimus ad Sacramentum caenae. In qua perfidem nos carne ſanguineque ſuo paſcit, lautiſſimis deliciis, ſupra omne quod vel dici vel cogitari poteſt. Quo ſenſu dictum eſt apud Lucam, cap. 13.29. Tunc venient ab Oriente & Occidente & Borea & Auſtro, & diſcumbent in regno Dei, i. e. homines ex omnibus oris ad Evangelium confluent, amplectentur doctrinam regni, veréque Chriſti participes fient, cujus pignora capient, Panem & Ʋinum, diſcumbentes ad ejus menſam in c…lebrandâ Sacrâ caenâ. Loquitur enim de vocatione Gentium, qu… rum fidem & aſcenſionem in totam veritatem per un…m ſacramentalem actionem deſignat. Hos jam convivas Chriſtus vocaret, cum interin, Judaei, de quibus agitur in illâ parabola, prorſus a ratione ſalutis abhorrerent, uti factam jam vidimus per multa ſecula: Quo pertinet etiam illud, quod ibidem afferunt excluſi Judaei, postulantes p. 34ſibí aditum, propter priſtinam familiaritatem edendi bibendique in ejus conspectu, ſupra. V. 26. q. d. Nos ſaep…, Domine, communicati menſâ tuâ hilare convivium tecum agitavimus, eden do ex tuis ſacrificiis: an fores nunc contra nos obſerabu? Haec enim ratione Iudaeis idem erat cibus ſacrificiorum, quod panis & vinum nobis. Neque tamen haec ita ſunt accipienda, quaſi gaudium electorum finibus hujus vitae circumſcriberetur, ſed quia caena quae peragitur in terris, eſt pignus aeterni convivii in caelis. Haec igitur docens duplex adbuc & ingens bonum in Anglicanae Eccleſia reſidere, Praedicationem nimirum verbi, & legitimam Sacramentorum adminiſtrationem. In quibus utriſque ſe Chriſtus ſuis impertit, mutuum convivium cum eis celebrans, ipſe primum per auditionem a nobis exceptus, deinde caena ſui corporis nos viciſſim excipiens. O nos igitur ſordidiſſimos, quoties a verbo audiendo refugimus, Chriſtum enim convivam respuimus. O nos impios contemptores, quoties recipiendo Sacramento cum fratribus nos ſubducimus: Chriſtum enim vocantem ad Caenam ſpernimus. Sed haec adiiciuntur in ſingulare ſolatium piorum: Etenim qui non trepidarent & de fugiendo quamprimum ab hac Eccleſiâ cogitarent; cum audirent exoſam eſſe Chriſto conditionem miniſtrerum, quos brevi non reſipiſcentes ev…miturus ſit ex ore, niſi verbis ipſius Chriſti certiores fierent de ſuâ cum co cōmunicatione? Laus igitur tibi, mitiſſime Agne, qui fores occluſas contra offendens, non ſtatim te proripis furore percitus, noſque pro meritis omni ratione ſalutis orbas, ſed luculentam adhuc tui copiam relinquis omnibus, qui tibi per verbum pulſanti aperiunt, & ſuaviſſimam tuam invitationem per Sacramenta non spernunt: Igitur ſceleſtus & blaſphemus eſt corum error, Parker de polit Eccl. lib. 1. ca. 14. Quo … pr…eſe… cum Anglia …ba vitae aeternae …a…eat. Ioh 6.68. Ibid. Non in …urid… jectione, ſed i… fundament… ipſius elemolitione ſeparatio dunt axat licita. J…id. Aquibus vos ſeparate? 1 Tim. 6.3.5. Ac loquitur Paulus de fund… … corr…ptione doctrinae ill us quae eſt ſecun. pietatem. Separavit Diſcipu…os Paulus? Act. 19.9.28. Athae ſeparatio a Iudaeis erat ipſa Evangelii fundament… blaſphemantibus. Poſtremò ſiparationem illam … praec pitur. 1 Cor. 5.11. Pſal. 17.4. 2 Pet 28. 2 Tim. 3.5. At nulla in …is Script… locis … privata praecipitur, quae ſamiliaritate abſtinct mal…feri…torum hominum … Nullam igitu ſeparationis veſtrae in Scripturis, a… exemplum piorum homin…m, aut precept… ophetarum & Apostolorum …x…at, &c.John 6:681 Tim 6:31 Tim 6:5Acts 19:9Acts 19:281 Cor 5:11Ps 17:42 Tim 3:5qui ſic ab ha… eccleſia deficiunt, quaſi Chriſtus hinc prorſus exularet; nec ulla ſpes ſalutis manentibus eſſe poſſet. Cogitent hic Chriſtum convivantem cum ſuis. An pudebit eos illic diſcumbere, ubi vident Chriſtum non pudere? An illo ſanctiores & mundiores erunt? Sed quare ſe non convincunt ſuo ipſorum uſu? Non poſſunt inficiari, quin prius in Chriſtum creded runt, quam fecerunt a nobis divortium: unde haec fides? Annon ex praedicatione in noſtra Eccleſia? Numquid ergo p. 35praedicare quis poteſt niſi mittatur? Rom. 10.13, &c. Quid ergo verbum propter labem aliquam externae vocationis tam perverſe respuunt, cujus vim divinam in cordibus ſentiunt? Etiamſi fructus ipſe non magis culpâ liberat depravationes noſtras, quam vera proles adulterium. Nec igitur nobis in iis acquieſcendum eſt, nec iis. a nobis propter aliquos naevos deficiendum. Quamobrem redite ad unitatem Eccleſiae, quae vos genuit & aluit. Si fugiatis hunc Chriſtum, qui cum electis in noſtris caetibus caenat, ac eos viciſsim excipit, profectò nuſquam invenietis. Interim cogitemus etiam nos, quantum nobis ipſis malum accerſimus, qui mordicùs retinendo ſuperſtitiones noſtras, fratres in tantum periculum coniicimus. Certe ſi quid momenti habet, quod olim confirmavit ipſa veritas, praeſtaret hujuſmodi hominibus ſuspenſa mola aſinaria in collis, demergi in profundo maris. Matth. 18.6. Vtriſque ſanitatem mentis precor.

Here wee ſee the Non-conformiſts agreeable to the Scripture, ſound reaſon, the conſent of all Antiquitie, and their own Principles doe plainely diſtinguiſh betwixt a maime or defect in the calling of a Miniſter, and no calling at all: that it is great ignorance, or (to ſpeak moſt favourably▪) inconſiderateneſſe to charge them, as if they went againſt their own Principles, in holding Communion with the Churches of England in the ordinances of Gods worſhip.

And if haſte had not blinded, Robinſon againſt Bern. reaſons diſcuſſ. p. 285.this you might have obſerved out of the Separatiſts themſelves. There is (ſaith one ſpeaking of Baptiſme) in this point a further conſideration to be had, unto which both the Scriptures, and our owne experience doe lead us: namely, that as the Lord hath his people in Babylon, his I meane, both in respect of election, and of perſonall ſanctification: ſo hath he for their ſakes there preſerved (notwithſtanding all the Apoſtaſie and confuſion which is found in it) ſundry his holy truths and ordinances, amongſt which Baptiſme is one. But if his ordinances be preſerved, or any one of them true for ſubſtance, of neceſſity ſome truth of Miniſterie, whereby thoſe ordinances be adminiſtred, muſt bee preſerved alſo.

It is an injurie to the people (as the Non-conformiſts hold) p. 36Whitak, de pont. Rom. contr. 4. qu. 1. cap. 1. Si velimus Chriſtum ipſum reſpicere, fuit ſemper eccleſiae regimen monarchicum, ſi eccleſiae Praebyteros, qui in doctrina & diſciplina ſuas partes agebant, Ar…ſtocraticum: ſi totum corpus eccleſiae, quatenus in electione epiſcoporum & presbyterorum ſuffragia ſer…bat, ita tamen foreign ſemper Praesbyteris ſervaretur, Democraticum. Dan. in 1 Tim. 5. pag. 352.1 Tim 5that a Miniſter ſhould be thruſt upon them againſt their wills, or whom they never ſaw, nor heard of. But if the people be few, ſimple, apt to be deceived, unable to judge of the fitneſſe of a Miniſter, they ſtand in need of direction, not onelyonly from their owne Elders, but from other Churches. The practice of the Apoſtles will confirme this: for ſometimes men were propounded unto the Church to be choſen, and ſometimes the choice was wholly left unto them. And was not this for our direction, that more libertie may be given, where the danger is leſſe, and more caution and reſtraint uſed, where the danger is apparant, that if they be left unto themſelves, either an ill, or an unfit choice ſhall be made? In reaſon it is evident, for the childs conſent is required in marriage, and the more able he is to chuſe for himſelfe, the more liberty may Parents grant him in his choice, but if he be not able, or leſſe able, the more watchfull muſt they be over him; and ſo in this matter.

The Presbyters are to goe before the people in the examination, Heb. 18.7. Tert. in …pol. c. 39.approbation and deſignement of a man fit for the Miniſterie: for they are guides, to whom the chiefe care and direction of things Eccleſiaſticall doth belong. As for the people, it is not their office, and for the moſt part, they are unable to judge of thoſe things. To the people therefore it pertaineth onelyonly to give their conſent to him that is choſen, or to ſhew their reaſons why they cannot approve of him, who is propounded, but no teſtimonie of Scripture, no example, no reaſon teacheth, Kuclin. Catech. Hollant. de legit. …ocat. Miniſt. Th. 10. Pleb…damus p…teſtatem propanendi ſi quas habet…e uſa…ion…s ca…ſas.that the whole buſineſſe ſhould be committed to the deſires and requeſts of the whole and ſole multitude.

The conſent of the people is not required to the common election, whereby a good, godly, learned, fit Man was choſen to the Miniſterie, but to the ſingular election of a Miniſter, whereby he is choſen to be ſet over this or that congregation. Or if that expreſſion be lyable to ſome exception, Ion. animad… in Bell co…. 5. l. 1. ca. 3. not. 3. & ca. 7 …ot. 7. Ibid. not 24.26.The conſent of the people is not required in this, Whether ſuch a man be fit for the Miniſterie and meet to be ſet apart for the worke of the Lord: but whether he be fit or meet to be their Miniſter, by whom they may be edified, and builded up in Faith and holineſſe. Of the former, they have no calling or right to judge: but in the latter they have great intereſt.

Brotherly ſocietie requireth, that we mutually admoniſh, exhort, reprove and comfort each other, as occaſion is offered, and when need requireth, it is the duty of neighbour-Churches p. 37to lend helpe to their brethren, in the choice and election of their Miniſter. Iun Eccleſ. l. 3. ca. ….Sir 50:3For if Churches have not fit men amongſt them for the Miniſterie, nor able men to make choice for themſelves, they are to be holpen in love, without prejudice to their libertie, and not to be diſcarded and caſt off as unworthy the name of a Church: When the Scripture willeth, that one ſhould admoniſh another, it is not only a cōmandement to every ſingular man towards his fellow, Heb. 3.13. Rom. 15.14. Rom. 12.12 Car…w. repl. 2. par. 1. p. 23 1.Heb 3:13Rom 15:14Rom 12:12but alſo to one whol company towards another ſociety. St. Paul, when he teacheth that all the faithful are mēbers of one myſticall body of Chriſt, who ought to have a mutual care one of another, laid the foundation of this policie. Bellar asketh, Quo jure unus populus epiſcopum alterius populi eligere potest? Junius anſwereth; Bellar. de Cl…r. l. 1. c. 7. Iun. Ibid. cap 7. not. 13. & eccld. 3. c. 1. Not 24.Certè charitatis jure & communionis ſanctorum: nam populus infidelis ipſe non poteſt eligere, utpote nondum vocatus, ſed poſtea vocandus ad Chriſtum. And a little after, to Bellarmine, objecting the dangers which may follow in popular elections, hee anſwereth. The danger is not ſo great, ubi conjunctus eſt Clerus, & actionem dirigit Presbyterium, praeſertim conſilio & auctoritate vicinorum Epiſcoporum & Eccleſiarum accedente. And after that, Et boni vicini quoque accedant ex ordine, Not. 27.& fratres alti ex communi officio charitatis, ſi quando opus eſt, prout Ambroſium feciſſe Nediolanenſi Eccleſiae narrat Theodor. hiſt. lib. 4. cap. 7.

In the Primitive times, one Church might elect and chuſe a Paſtor for another, and the Governours of one Church were choſen by the confent and ſuffrage of others. Ignatius writeth thus to the Philadelphians, It behoveth you as the Church of God, to chuſe a Biſhop. Of what Church would Ignatius have the Philadelphians to chuſe a Biſhop? Not of their owne, The Church of Chriſt was guided by the common con…en…, and mutuall agreement of both parts, as well Eaſt as Weſt, as a peares in the caſe of Athanaſiu… … Arian. Haec quidem Aegyptii ad omnes & ad epiſcopum Roman… I…l um ſcripſ…e. … apol. 2. Sozom l. 3. c. 7.10, 11. Ignat. ad … foreign. Theod. l. 2. ca. 4. Baſil. Ep. 48. … Athan. & …1. occiden… … & 69. … & Gallis & 70. Gall. et Jtal. ep…ſe. & 74. occident. ep ſe. See … … Or to fend ſome ſufficient legate to heale the breach that was made, and quench the flame that was kindled in his Church at Antioch. … Govern. ca. 7. pa. 76. … 13. Cyyrian meant this of ſuch mutuall a…d and concord, as might profit the Church, and well beſeem the ſervants of Chriſt, but allows not that men ſhould run to … for helpe, againſt the judgement and acts of their Paſtors. Cypr. … Epiſt. 3. & 4.for in the beginning of his Epiſtle, he greatly commendeth the Biſhop which they had already. But he exhorteth them to elect a Paſtor of the Church at Antioch, as the words before going p. 38doe make it evident. All Biſhops (ſaith Cyprian) ſunt mutuae comcordiae glutine copulatae, that if any one hold haereſie, the reſt ſhould helpe: and therefore he moved Stephanus the Pope to write to the Biſhops in France, that they ſhould depoſe the Biſhop of Arles, and to the people, that they ſhould chuſe another in his roome. Theod. l. 5. c. 23. Cypr. l. 4. epist. 8. See Iun. Eccleſ. l 3. c. 1 Amb epiſt. 82. See what Socrates reporteth of the election of Chryſost. Socr. hiſt. l. 6. ca. 2. Theod. hiſt. l. 4. c. 6 See Theod. buſt. l. 5. c. 8. Sozom. l. 7. c. 8. Socr. l. 6. c. 2. Iun. eccleſ. l. 3. c. 1. Erat ſanetum talis politia in Eccleſia, ſicut membrorum in uno corpore, ubi omnia uni compatiuntur, prespuiunt & medentur. Illitici catal. teſt. lib. 2. p. 109.Sir 50:3Theodoret teſtifieth, In the ordination of a Biſhop, All the Biſhops of a Province ought to be called together: Cornelius, Biſhop of Rome, was confirmed of the Biſhops of Africk. Gregorius Presbyter, in the life of Nazianzene, affirmeth of the Biſhops of Macedonia and Egypt, that they contradicted the election of Nazianzene, becauſe he was made Biſhop before they came: Ambroſe writeth, That his election was confirmed of all the Biſhops of the East and Weſt: and Theodoret, That Valentinian the Emperor confirmed it alſo.

Election therefore was not ever made by the particular congregation, where the Paſtor or Teacher was to adminiſter, but other Churches, and ſpecially the Guides, by common conſent were called to aſſiſt the Church in that weighty buſineſſe. And this the Non-conformiſts judge not only lawfull, but meet, expedient, neceſſary in ſome caſes. And therefore in many particulars, they except againſt the propoſition, as none of theirs, and againſt your confident aſſertion, that you were ſure the propoſitions were both theirs, when as it is neither found in them, nor in any writer, ancient or moderne, nor in the holy Scriptures.

And when you peruſe the teſtimonies alledged, Rhemists annot. in Ioh. 10. §. 1.John 10be judge your ſelfe, whether you did not groſſely miſtake, or abuſe your Reader, when you cite the Rhemiſts, as if they pleaded for the Parochial election of a Paſtour, as onelyonly lawfull.

As for the Aſſumption, It is true, the Miniſters of the Church of England are not ordained by the particular Congregations, where they adminiſter, nor is it neceſſarie to a true and entire calling, that it ſhould be ſo. That they be not approved of the particular ſociety, is falſe in many of them: for they are choſen by their conſent, to be their Miniſters, though not abſolutely to the Miniſterie it ſelfe. And in caſe they be not ſo called, it is a maime and defect, Parker de polit. Eccl. l. 1. c. 14. Deducere quidem conantur illi ex majoribus noſtris minores quaſdam, ſed & abſurdas & inconſequentes. Neque enim ſi neceſſaria diſciplina ſit, & in verbo Dei tradita idcirco, ſeparatio ſicubi corrumpatur, ſacienda ſ…atim est, nulla connexionis vi hoc poriſina ſequitur.Sir 50:1which ſhould be reformed, whether it p. 39be through the ignorance of the people, or the Lawes of the Kingdome, or the pride and covetouſneſſe of them that thruſt themſelves into that calling, or neglect of Patrons, or what elſe ſoever: But this maime doth not make a nullitie of their calling, nor the Word and Sacraments diſpenſed by them to be ineffectuall. For in every Church where the doctrine of ſalvation is ſoundly and intirely preached and profeſſed, the calling of the Miniſterie is for ſubſtance true and lawfull. The Nonconformiſts therefore in reproving the abuſes of the Miniſterie and yet holding communion with the Church of England in the ordinances of worſhip, See Calvin. Inſtit. l. 4. c. 1. §. 12, 13, 14, 15, &c.doe walke according to their own Principles, the doctrine and practice of the Churches of God in all ages, and direction of the holy Scritures.

The Non-conformiſts reprove the tumults of the people in election, without the direction of the Presbyters, Whitak. de pont. Rom. contr. 4. qu. 1. c. 2 p. 16. I…a v. admiſſa eſt populi multitudo, ut vitaretur omnis foreign, ne eccleſia eſſet foreign. ut Act. 19.32. Bilſon. perpet Gov. Epiſt. to the Read. Right Apoſtolick Biſhops were ſuch as were left or ſent by the Apoſtles to be Paſtors of the Church, and Governors of the Presbyteries in every city that beleeved, ſo long as they ruled well: and in their ſtead, as their ſucceſſors, to receive charge of ordaining others for the worke of the Miniſterie, and guiding the Keyes with the advice and conſent of ſuch as laboured with them in the Word and Doctrine. Id. ca. 4. Without proofe, the Church muſt not beleeve, nor regard thy ſpeech: and proofe thou haſt none. One and the ſame perſon cannot be both Accuſant and Deponent: and in the mouth of one witneſſe, though his teſtimony were received, yet may no man be condemned. See Beza annot. Maier. in. Matth. 18.7.Acts 19:32Matt 18:7both their owne and Neighbouring Churches: ſo did the Ancients. The Ordination of Biſhops by themſelves alone, or their Chaplaines, and that of many at a clap: ſo did the Ancients. The thruſting of Miniſters upon the people without their knowledge or conſent: ſo did the Ancients. The ordination of Miniſters without cure or charge: ſo did the Ancients. The ignorance, idleneſſe, pride, luxurie, pompe, covetouſneſſe, contention and ſchiſme of ſuch as thruſt themſelves raſhly, ambitiouſly, profanely into offices, by favour, monie, flatterie, or other corruption: ſo did the Ancients. They reprove theſe, and ſuch like abuſes, and humbly ſeek and ſue for reformation, but tolerate what they cannot amend, and hold communion with the Churches of God in the Ordinances of Religion: and ſo did the Ancients.

And if the Ancients did neither lay the grounds of Separation, nor walke contrary to their owne Principles, in holding communion, it is great ignorance, at leaſt, to charge the Nonconformiſts, as if they walked not according to their owne rules, when they doe not ſeparate.

p. 40Nay, if the Non-conformiſts ſhould not diſallow both your poſitions and practice of Separation, they ſhould not walke agreeable to their owne Principles, or the truth of Scripture. For you hold, the power of the keyes originaliter, and executivè, is given to the community of the faithfull, many or few, yea though but two or three joyned together in a Church way. This the Nonconformiſts approve not: You hold it is neceſſary and eſſentiall to the calling of a Miniſter, that he be approved, choſen and ordained only by that congregation, where he is to adminiſter. This the Nonconformiſts altogether diſlike. You hold all Miniſters that be not choſen and ordained after your forme propounded, to be unlawfull, Idol, Antichriſtian Miniſters. This the Nonconformiſts judge to be Antichriſtian. The conſequence of your Poſitions is this, That ſince the Church of the New Teſtament was eſtabliſhed upon the earth, there was ſcarce a true lawfull Miniſterie to be found, where with the faithfull might lawfully hold communion in the worſhip of God. This the Non-conformiſts doe deteſt and abhorre. Of other your poſitions in the Sections following.