Which is the True Church, Part 1 · Chapter 5
CHAP. V. Q. What mean you by TRADITION?
W. I. I Understand by Tradition the visible delivery from hand to hand in all cases, of the revealed Sect. 1…will of God either written or unwritten.
R. B. I suppose by visible from hand to hand, you mean principally of the unwritten (audible from ear to ear by speech). But all the doubt is, by whom it must be delivered, by the Pastors or people, or both? by the Pope, or Councils, or Bishops disjunct? by the major part of the Church, Bishops or Presbyters? or by how many?
W. J. By such and so many proportionably as suffice in a Kingdom to certifie the people which are the ancient universal received customs in that Kingdom, which is to be morally considered.
R. B. O wary Disputant! that taketh heed lest you should answer while you seem to answer! Reader, a Kingdom is not so big as all the world! The Customs of a Kingdom may be known by the constant consent of the people of that Kingdom; and if they differ about it, Records and Law-booke decide it expositorily, and judges by the decision of particular mens cases by such rules. But can customs be known as well over all the world? Yea, and can matter of faith and doctrine be as easily known as practised customs? Can we know as easily what are the Traditions of Abassia, Armenia, Syria, Egypt, &c. as of England? Can they of Abassia tell what are the true Traditions of all the Christian world, that have Traditions in their own Countrey so different from ours? They have many books as sacred among them by tradition, which we receive not. They have annual Baptism, and other ceremonies by Tradition, which we account to be unlawful.
Here I told W. I. 1. How certainly Tradition is against them, when most of the Christian world deny the Popes Soveraignty, and that as by tradition. And how lame their tradition is which is carried but by their private affirmation, and is but the unproved saying of a Sect.
To this he saith:
W. J. That this belongs to our Controversie, and not to the explication of our terms. And so I must pass it by.
R. B. Q. 2. What proof or notice must satisfie as in particulars, what is true tradition?Sect. 2.
W. J. Such as with proportion is a sufficient proof or notice of the Laws and Customs of temporal Kingdoms.
R. B. But you durst not tell us what that is that is proportionable. This was answered before. I added, Is it necessary for every Christian to be able to weigh the credit of contradicting-parties? When one half of the world say one thing, and the other another thing, what opportunity have ordinary Christians to compare them, and discern the moral advantages on each side? As in the case of the Popes Soveraignty, when two or three parts are against it, and the rest for it: Doth salvation lye on this?
W. J. As much as they have to know which books are, and which are not Canonical Scripture among those that are in controversie.
R. B. That these books were sent to the Churches from the Apostles, 1. Is a matter of fact. 2. And an assertion easily remembred. 3. And all the Churches are agreed of all that we take as Ca…cal. 4. And yet men that practically believe but the Creed and Summaries of Religion, shall certainly be saved, though they erroneously doubted of some of the uncontroverted books (as Chronicles, Esther, Canticles, &c.) much more that receive not the controverted Apocrypha.
But 1. Your Traditions in question are many particulars, hard for to be remembred. 2. And that of matter of faith and fact, where a word forgotten or altered, changeth the thing. 3. And most Christians in the world are against it. 4. And you would lay the peoples salvation on it; yea, and make it one of your cheating quibbles, to prove your religion safer than ours, because some Protestants say a Papist may be saved, but you say that Protestants cannot be saved (that is, because you have less sincerity and charity). Is not here difference enough?
If you hold that all they are damned that believed not that all the Apocryphal books were Canonical, peruse Bishop Cousins Catalogue of Councils and Fathers that received them not, and see whether you damn not almost all the Church. But if you confess that there is no more necessity to salvation for men to be the subjects of your Pope, than there is that they try all the Apocrypha whether it be Canonical, and know it; why then do you found your belief that Christ is the Son of God, upon your forebelieving that the Pope is his Vicar, or your Church his Church? And why do you make such a stir in the world to affright poor people to believe and be subject to your Pope?
I here asked him. Must all the people here take the words of their present Teacher? And he Sect. 3. This se…ms to confess that your people have no …ivine faith for our belief of a Priest, saying, This book is canonical, is but humane.durst not answer yea or nay, but as much as they do for the determination of Canonical Scriptures.
Ans. If it be no more, it giveth them no certainty: but by the belief of one man as a Teacher, they are broug… …o …cern themselves those notifying evidences by which the Teacher himself … books are …. And if they attain no higher than to believe fide D… the … Doctrines, the doubting or ignorance of some texts or books, will not … in the Scripture that impress of Divine authority, which to a prepared hea… o… reader will … convince him that they are of God, though not r…e him of every particular Text and Book.
R. B. Then most of the world must believe against you, because most of the teachers are against Sect. 4.you. Tradition quite …eth P…er).
W. J. There is no Congregation of Christians united in the same profession of faith, external Communion and dependance of Pastors, which is contrary in belief …o …, any way to be parallel with us in extent and multitude. Prove there is, and name it. All our adversaries together are a patcht body of a thousand different professions, and as much adversaries one to another as they are to us; the one justifying us in that, wherein the other condemn us; so that no beed is to be taken to their testimonies; non sunt convenientia.
R B. They agree not with your interest: But if the Testimonies and Tradition of two or three parts of the Christian world, be not to be heeded. I doubt the testimony of your third or fourth part will prove much less regardable. Let us try the case, for here you are utterly confounded, 1 Indeed none that our ordinary language calleth a Congregation, that is, men that meet locally together, are so big as all your party: But a Church far better united than you are, is far greater than yours. Those that have all the Essentials of the one Church of Christ, ☞are that one Church of Christ: But the Reformed Churches, the Greeks, Armenians, Abassines, Syrians, Iacobites, Georgians, Copties, &c. have all the Essentials of the one Church of Christ▪ Therefore they are that one Church of Christ. The Major is undeniable. The Minor is thus proved, They that hold the same Head of the Church, believing in the same God the Father, Son and …ly G…st, and are devoted to him in the same Baptismal Covenant, and believe all the Articles of faith, desire and practice essential to Christianity, in the Creed, Lords-prayer and Decalogue, and recei…e all the …re as Gods …ord, which i… …y here received by us as Canonical, these have all the …ls of the one Church of Christ (and much more) But such are all the forementioned Christians: Ergo, &c.
The Head and the Body are the constitutive parts of the Church: The Head is Christ, the Body are Christians 1. They are united in the same profession of faith; viz. the same Baptism …reed and Scriptures. 2. They are united in the same external communion, if you mean external worship of God in all the Essentials of it, and much more. They have the same Scriptures read and … they preach the same Gospel; they use the same Sacraments of the Covenant of Grace, viz. Baptism and the Lords Supper; yea they are commonly for some Confirmation, Ordination … of penitence and absolution of P…nitents, Matrimony, &c. though they agree not whether the name of Sacraments be fit for them all, much less Sacraments of the Cove… Grace; they observe the same Lords day for publick worship; they pray, confess sin, give thanks and praises to God; and hold the communion of Saints, and communication to each other in want. This is their external communion. 3. They have the same depen… of the people on their Pastors, as the Ministers of Christ, authorized to … and guide the Churches, and to go before them in the publick worshipping of God. But if you mean that they have not the same ext… communion of Pastors in dependance on one as the … Pastor or Governour of all the rest; indeed there is none such but you. For it is in that that they differ from you.
Reader is not here an excellent Disputer? I affirm that the judgment of most of the Christian world is against the Papists▪ in the point of an Universal Head or Governour of all Sect. 5.Churches. He saith that no one party which is for an Universal Governour, and yet is against an Universal Governour, is so big as their party. I grant it. Had they all dependance on one as an Universal Governour, they were not against on Universal Governour. The Abassines have one Abuna, but he claimeth no Universal Government. The Armenians have their Catholick Bishop but he claimeth no Universal power. The Greeks have their Patriarch at Constantinople, but he pretendeth not to govern all the World. We are all against any Head of the whole Church on Earth but Christ, and therefore are united under no other.
You say that … … patcht body of a thousand different professions, &c.
Ans Reproach not the Body of Christ▪ they are far more united than your Church as Papal. Are not the se…en points of … mentioned by Paul … …, 4, 5, 6, 7▪ as good as yours▪ 1. They have one …ead that never …arieth, and whom all receive▪ you have a Head rejected by most Christians, and oft turn'd into two or three Heads, one saying I am the Head, and another I am the Head, and setting the world in blood and contention to try it out which of them shall get the better, as your forty years Schisms shewed. 2. Therefore this Church which you reproach as patcht, is but one: But yours is really many and not one, specifically, as well as oft numerically; when there were two or three Popes, you had two or three Churches. For it is the pars imperans that individuateth the Society. And de specie, you are still three Churches, as holding three several heads: one holdeth the Pope to be the Head, another a Council, and a third the Pope and Council agreeing: And these Heads have oft condemned and deposed one another, Councils namned Popes as Hereticks, Infidels, Simonists, Murderers, Adulterers; and Popes accused Councils of schism and rebellion at least. And to this day there is no certainty which were true Popes, nor which were true Councils, some being called by you Reprobate, because they pleased not the Popes, and some approved. But our Head of the Church is not thus divided, nor schismatical. 3 Our common faith is still the same, and its rule the same; but yours is mutable by new additions, as long Councils will make new Decrees, and no man can tell when you have all and your faith is come to its full stature: Nay, and your Decrees which are your rule of faith are so many and obscure, that you are not agreed your selves in the number or the meaning of them. 4. It is a notorious truth that all these Churches which you say have a thousand professions (as they all agree in one Christian profession, so) do less differ among themselves, than your seemingly united Church doth with it self; whether you respect the number or the weight of differences.
1. For the Number, sint libri judices; all the Christian World besides hath not so many (nor I think half so many) Volumes of Controversies, as your Writers have written against one another, (as far as is come to the notice of this part of the World.)
2. And for the Weight, 1. I have shewed that you are divided in your very Fundamentals, the Supremacy; you confess here that your Church is not at all agreed what the Christian faith is, or who is a Christian: some say, he that believeth the Church, and that God is a rewarder; others say, a Christian must believe in Christ, &c. 2. Your Commentators differ about the sense of hundreds or thousands of Texts of Gods own word 3. Your Disputers about Grace and Free-will, accuse one the other of making God the cause of Sin, and of denying the Grace of God. 4. Your Moralists differ about many instances of Excommunicating Kings, and then killing them, and of the Popes power to depose them; and of perjury, lying, murder, adultery, fornication, false witness, yea about loving God himself, whether it be necessary to love him once a year, or whether attrition, that is repentance from bare fear, with penance, may not serve turn to Salvation, with abundance such. And we confess that other Christians have their differences! And what wonder while they are so imperfect in knowledg, and all grace? And now if Concord or Discord must tell us whose Tradition or Judgment is most regardable, let the Impartial judg whether the mo… …egardable Tradition of the far greatest part of the Church be not against you? and whether your reproaching them for discord, condemn not your selves much more than them. If a subject should stile himself the Kings Vicegerent, and claim much of his Prerogative without his Commission and a third part of the Kingdom should unite in receiving and obeying him, and have otherwise a thousand contentions among them; Qu. Whether these or the rest of the Kingdom were the more and better united?
When I next questioned, Whether the vulgar that know not Councils, resolve not their Sect. 6.faith into the belief of the Parish-priest? he saith no. And saith, That the Priest is but the means by whom we come to believe, and tells us that else we know not whether there were any Christians 500 years ago, &c.
Ans. But if they will be content with Ministerial teaching, and Historical proof of things past, we would not differ from them; we do not only assert these as well as they, but we say that as we have sounder teaching, so we have far better Historical Tradition of our faith, than that which dependeth on a pretended fan…tick Infallibility, or authority of their Pope and Sect; even the Historical Tradition of the whole Christian World, and of many of the enemies themselves.