The Successive Visibility of the Church, Letter 11
Reverend Sir,
THe noted sanctity, admirable integrity, and extraordinary charity so eminently appearing in your pious actions, (and as I have some cause to think, the indelible characters of your sacred function) hath animated me to make choice of your self rather then any of your coat to this present address: hoping your candour and tenderness will bear with what may be (by others less sensible of the value of immortal souls slighted) interpreted according to the candid and true sense of your supplicant by you. It hath pleased the great and terrible Iudge of heaven and earth to put me upon some thoughts more seriously then ordinary of my eternal estate, and to be somewhat doubtful (in the midst of external perturbations) of those internal grounds which I have formerly relyed upon; And truely Sir with all cordialness, my desire is clearly to know the mind of my God, which were I truely satisfied in, I should soon wave all other interests to entertain: and assuring my self according to what I have seen and read, the Church of Rome, to which I have long cleaved and adhered, to be the pillar and ground of truth, and that Catholike Church which the ancient Creed testifies, we are to believe in: My desire is to be as soon satisfied as may be of your thoughts, whether it ever were a true Church, which I suppose you will not deny, when you consider the first verse of the Epistle to the Romans; and if so, when it made its defection? The reason of my urging this is, because I think all other questions to be but going about the bush, and the true Church being proved, all arguments else easily are answered. I have heard Protestants aver the ancient maxime, viz. Extra Ecclesiam non est salus. Therefore I suppose it the only thing pertinent to my purpose, and necessary to salvation to enquire after. My occasions will suddenly draw me from these parts, unless I hear from you speedily: and doubt not Sir, but I am one who freely will resign my self to hear truth impartially. Therefore I beseech you to send something to me by way of satisfaction the next Saturday, after which you shall be more particularly sensible who the person is that applies himself to you, and in the interim subscribes himself, Sir,
A thirsty troubled soul, and yours to his power, Tho. Smith. Feb. 11. 1656.
Direct your Letter to me if you please to Mr. John Smiths house next door to the sign of the Crown in the broad street, Worcester. Good Sir, be private for the present; otherwise it may be prejudicial to some temporal affairs agitating at this time.
Sir,
THat you can have such charitable thoughts of one that is not of the Roman subjection, and of my function, being not received from the Pope, is so extraordinary, yea and contrary to the judgement of your writers, that I must needs entertain it with the more gratitude, and some admiration. And that you are so impartially willing to entertain the truth, (as you profess) though it be no more then the truth deserves of you, and your own wellfare doth require; yet is the more aimiable in you, by how much the more rare in those of your Profession, so far as my acquaintance can inform me: for most of them that I have met with, understand not well their own Religion, nor think themselves much concerned to understand it, but refer me to others for a Reason of their hope. For my part, I do the more gladly entertain the occasion of this entercourse with you (though unknown,) that I may learn what I know not, and may be true to my own conscience in the use of all means that may conduce to my better information. And therefore I shall plainly answer your Questions according to the measure of my understanding; most solemnly professing to you, that I will say nothing which comes not from my heart in plain simplicity, and that I will with exceeding gladness and a thousand thanks come over to your way, if I can finde by any thing that you shall make known to me, that it is the mind of God that I should so do. And therefore I am desirous, that if what I write to you shall seem unsound, you would not only afford me your own advice for the correction of it, but also the advice of the most learned of your mind, to whom you shall your self think meet to communicate it. But on these conditions. 1. That it be a person of a tender conscience, that dare speak nothing but what he verily believes. 2. That he will argue closly, and not fly abroad or dilate Rhetorically. And for any divulging of it to your danger or hurt, you need not fear it: For these two grounds of my following answers; I shall here promise, 1. That I am so far from persecuting bloody desires against those of your way, that their own bloody principles and practices where they have power (in Italy, Spain, &c.) hath done much to confirm me, that the cause is not of God that must be so upheld and carried on. 2. And I am so far from cruel uncharitable censures of any that unfeignedly love the Lord Jesus and his truth, that it is the greatest motive to me of all other to dislike your Profession, because it is so notoriously against Christian charity, restraining the Catholike Church to your selves, and outing and condemning the far greatest part of Christians in the world, and that because they believe not in the Pope, though they believe in God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and all that the Primitive Church believed. I am so Catholike, that (according to my present judgement) I cannot be of your Church, because it is so little Catholike. I am of the one universal Church, which containeth all the true Christians in the world: And you are of a Party which hath separated it self from most of the Christians in the world. I am of that one body that is centred in Christ the Head; you are of a piece of this body, that hath centred in a man, and oft a confessed heretical wicked man, whom you take while he lives to be the infallible Judge and foundation of all your faith and hope; and when he is dead, perhaps pronounce him to be in hell (as Bellarmine did Pope Sixtus, and others commonly.) I know, as every Sect hath a kind of unity among themselves, however divided from all the rest of the Church, so also hath yours: but nothing will satisfie me but a Catholike Unity, Church and Faith. So much being premised, I answer your Questions.
Quest. 1. Whether the Church of Rome was a true Church in the Apostles dayes?
Answ. The word [Church] signifies more things then one. 1. Sometime it is used to signifie the whole mystical body of Christ, containing all and only those that are justified, whom Bellarmine calleth living members. And in this sense the Church of Rome in the Apostles dayes was not the Church, but the justified members were part of the Church. 2. Sometime it is used to signifie all that profess true Christianity in the world: And thus the Church of Rome was not the Church, but part of it. 3. It is oft used by your writers to signifie one Church, that by Prerogative is the Head or Mistris of all Christians in the world, to which they must all be subject, and from which they must receive their name, as the Kingdom of Mexico, of Tripolis, of Fez, &c. are so called from the chief Cities of the same name, and from which they receive their Faith and Laws, as the body hath life and motion from the head or heart. In this sense the Church of Rome was no Church in the Apostles dayes. 4. Sometime it is used to signifie one particular Church, associated for personal Communion in Worship. And thus the Church of Rome was a true Church in the Apostles dayes. 5. Sometime it is used to signifie a Collection or Conjunction of many particular Churches (though not all) under the Bishop of one Church, as their Patriarch or Metropolitan. And thus the Church of Rome was no Church in the Apostles dayes, but about two hundred years after Christ it was.
It is only the Church in the third of these senses, that is in controversie between the Roman and Reformed Churches. Now to your next Question.
Quest. 2. When was it that the Church of Rome ceased to be a true Church?
Answ. In the first, second, and third sences it never ceased to be a true Church: for it never was one. In the first and second sence it never was one either in title or claim, (I hope.) In the third, it was never one in Title, nor yet in claim for many hundred years after Christ: but now it is. Therefore the Question between us should not be, when it ceased, but when it begun to be such a Capital Ruling Church, Essential to the whole?
In the fifth sence it never ceased otherwise then as it is swallowed up in a higher Title. It begun to be a Patriarchal Church, about two or three hundred years after Christ: and it ceased to be meerly Patriarchal when it arrogated the Title of Vniversal or Mistris of all.
In the fourth sence, the Question is not so easie, and I shall thus answer it. 1. By speaking to the use of the Question. 2. By a direct answer to it.
1. It is of small concernment to my salvation or yours, to know whether the Church of Rome be a true particular Church or not: no more then to know whether the Church of Thessalonica, or Ephesus, or Antioch, be now a true Church. In charity to them I am bound to regard it, as I am bound to regard the life of my neighbour: But what doth it concern my own life, to know whether the Mayor and Aldermen of Worcester or Glocester be dead or alive? So what doth it concern my Salvation to know whether the Church of Rome be now a true particular Church? If I lived at the Antipodes or in Aethiopia, and had never heard that there is such a place as Rome in the world (as many a thousand Christians doubtless never heard of it) this would not hinder my salvation, as long as I believed in the blessed Trinity, and were sanctified by the Spirit of Grace. So that, as I am none of their Judge, so I know not that it much concerneth me, to know whether they be a true particular Church, save for charity or communion.
2. Yet I answer it more directly. 1. If they do not by their errors so far overthrow the Christian faith which they profess, as that it cannot practically be believed by them, then are they a true particular Church, or part of the universal Church. 2. And I am apt to hope at least of most that they do not so hold their errors, but that they retain with them so much of the essentials of Religion as may denominate them a true professing Church. More plainly: Rome is considered first as Christian, secondly as Papal: As Christian, it is a true Church: As Papal, it is no true Church: For Popery is not the Church according to Christs Institution, but a dangerous corruption in the Church. As a Leprosie is not the man, but the disease of the man. Yet he that is a Leper may be a m…. And he that is a Papist may be a Christian: But 1. Not as he is a Papist. 2. And he is but a leprous or diseased Christian.
So much to your Questions.
By this much you may see that it no way concerneth me to prove when Rome ceased to be a true Church. For if you mean such a Church as Corinth, Philippi, Ephesus, &c. was, that is, but a part of the Catholike Church, so I stick not much, saving in point of Charity, whether it be true or false. But if you mean as your party doth, a Mistris Church to Rule the whole, and denominate the Catholike Church [Roman,] so I say, its Vsurpation is not ceased (that's the misery) and its just title never did begin: and its claim was not of many hundred years after Christ: so that your Question requireth no further Answer.
But what if you had put the Question, At what time it was that your Church began to claim this universal Dominion? I should give you these two answers. 1. When I understand that it is of any great moment to the decision of our controversie, I shall tell you my opinion of the man that first laid the claim, and the year when. 2. But it is sufficient for me to prove, that from the beginning it was not so. Little did the Bishops of Rome before Constantines dayes, dream of governing all the Christians in the world. But when the Emperours became Christians, their great favour and large endowments of the Church, and the greatness and advantage of the Imperial City did give opportunity to the Bishop of Rome (as having both riches, and the Emperours and Commanders ears) to do so many and great favours for most other Churches, in preserving and vindicating them, that it was very easie for the Bishop hereby to become the chief Patriarch (which he was more beholden to the Emperour for, then to any Title that he had from Christ or Peter.) And then the quarrel with Iohn of Constantinople occasioned the thoughts of an universal Headship; which Gregory did disclaim and abominate, but Boniface after him, by the grant of a murdering trayterous Emperour, did obtain: But so as the See swelled before into a preparatory magnitude.
And if we could not tell you the time within two hundred years and more, it were no great matter, as long as we can prove that it was not so before. For who knows not that even some Kings in Europe have come from being limited Monarchs, to be absolute, and that by such degrees, that none can tell the certain time. Nay I may give you a stranger instance. The Parliaments of England have part in the legislative power: And yet I do not think that any Lawyer in England is able to prove the just time, yea or the age, (or within many ages) when they first obtained it: which yet in so narrow a spot of ground may be easilier done, then the time of the Popes usurpation over all the world. For it could not be all at once: for one Country yeilded to his (late) claim in one age, and another in another age, and many a bloody battle was fought before he could bring the Germane Emperours and Christian Princes to submit to him fully.
3. But let me tell you one thing more; Though as to an arrogant claim, the Pope is Head and Governour of all the Catholike Church, and Rome their Mistris, (as the Pope makes Patriarchs of Antioch, Alexandria, and Hierusalem, that never come near the place or people,) yet as to any possession or acknowledgement on the Churches part, he was never universal Head, nor Rome the Mistris to this day. For the greater half of the Christians did never subject themselves to him at all, nor come under his power. So that the Pope even now in his greatest height, is only the head of the universal Church by his own claim, and naming himself so, without any Title given by God, or acknowledged by men, and without having ever been possessed of what he claims. The King of France doth scarce believe that the King of England was King of France, for all that he put it into his title: nor do the Swedes take the Pole for their King, because he so calls himself. I am sure if the Turkish Emperour call himself the Emperour of the world, that doth not prove that he is so. Rainerius the Popes Inquisitor (in catal. post. lib. cont. Waldens.) saith plainly, That the Churches that were planted by the Apostles themselves (such as the Abassines, …) are not subject to the Pope. Once he … the Government of no Church in the world, but Rome it self: After that he grew to have the government of the Patriarchate of the West: since that he hath got some more, and claimed all; but never got neer half the Churches into his hands to this day. Do I need then to say any more to disprove his universal Headship, and that Rome is not the Catholike Ruling Church?
But having gone thus far in opening my thoughts to you, I shall forbear the adjoyning the proof of my Assertions, till I hear again from you. If I understand it, The Question between you and me to be debated, must be this, [Whether the Roman Church was in the Apostles dayes, the Mistris or Ruling Church, which all other Churches were bound to obey, and from it were to be called the Roman Catholike Church?] This I deny: and you must maintain, or else you must be no Papist. The motion that I make is, that by the next you will send me your Arguments to prove it (for it belongs to you to prove it, if you affirm it.) To which I will return you (if they change not my judgement) both my Answers and my Arguments for the Negative. And if you do indeed make good but this one Assertion, I do … promise you, that I will joyfully and resolvedly turn Papist: and if you cannot make it good, I may expect that you should no longer adhere to Rome as the Ruling or Catholike Church, and the Pillar and Ground of Truth; though charity should allow it to be [a Catholike Church] that is a member of the Catholike Church, which is indeed the Pillar and Ground of Truth, wherein Rome may have a part as it is part of the Church: But I would it were not a most dangerously diseased part. I crave your reply with what speed you can, and remain,
An unfeigned lover of Truth and the friends of Truth. Rich. Baxter. Feb. 12. 1656/7.
The two following Letters, with the Narrative, are annexed only to shew the effect of the former.
Sir,
THough the business in agitation betwixt your self and me, be the one thing necessary, and so to be preferred to all obligations, and businesses of what concernment soever; yet a resolution formerly taken up, hath diverted me somewhat from the present earnest prosecution thereof as it deserves. Temporal credit, though it should give way to things of eternal moment, yet it often sways the minds even of good men to neglect very important opportunities; which though I cannot excuse my self of, yet I desire it may be candidly interpreted, and that this may be accepted as a pledge to an answer of what you have inserted. And I desire your next may be directed to me to London, to one Mr. T. S. who is a kinsman of mine, and no small admirer of your self. My thanks in the interim I return for the pains you have taken, which I hope through the mercy of God will not prove successeless for the future one way or other: the truth is, I have not divulged my self, or intentions as yet to any of my own way, which I know will be very troublesome; and I know I shall be beset with enemies from the ignorant, that way affected, as I doubt not of help from the learned. Yet as I told you in my former, without any carnal interest respecting, or outward troubles regarding, or inbred enemies combating, I resolve by the grace and assistance of God to be guided by truth impartially where I shall find it lye clearest: and shalt make it my work to implore the throne of mercy, that my understanding may be so enlightned, as to discern truth from heresie. I desire Sir, if it may be no prejudice to your more earnest occasions, that I may have two or three lines from you by way of advice to meet me at London at the place aforesaid, and assure your self, however God shall direct the successe, I shall rest, Sir,
A thirsty desirer of truth, and yours unfeignedly, Tho. Smith. Feb. 16. 1656.
If what you write to me be first sent to Mr. John Smiths of Worcester as before, it will be safely sent to me. Good Sir, think not I slight a business of so eternal consequence by my neglect for the present; for none shall for the future be found more earnest to find out the mind of God, and he assisting, I hope, as chearfully to close therewith.
Sir,
THe speed of your former applications to me by way of answer, incites me to the confirmation of those thoughts of your worth which were at my first addresses to you harboured in my brest; but the substance of your discourse is a stronger motive. Although peradventure it may seem somewhat wonderful, that I should so soon be brought over to the serious apprehensions of the weight of what you have written to me; yet when you consult the divine providence, and the Almighty direction which prompted me to the choise of your self above others, upon grounds not altogether insufficiently established, which will be further made good when I shall have the happiness of a personal entercourse of communion with you, it will be certainly concluded upon by your self and whosoever it shall be communicated to, that the truth, which I have already seriously pondered, was the full aim of my intentions: which truth I shall impartially and joyfully entertain wheresoever I find it, without any thoughts at all of temporal or external discouragements, of which I have already contested with some, and expect (the Lord arm me against them) far greater. It is no small thing that I shall be lookt upon as an Apostate, and so worthy of excommunication utterly; but I conclude according to St. Augustine (I guess) that it is no shame to turn to the better, and withal I add (although I could insert some small exceptions) I am to the main satisfied, but yet in some doubtful suspence, wherein I expect full satisfaction by your book, which I received intimation from you is in the Press, and quickly to be published. If I might receive two or three lines from you in the interim, by way of establishment, it would be very gratefully accepted, in relation to the comfortable taking off those obstacles which I am certain to meet with in my change of judgement. I am very sorry that a person whom I know to be so tender of eternal souls in general, should be so continually taken off your important business daily by particulars. But being likewise sensible that you value a soul according to the worth of the same; I am encouraged to think, yea I verily believe, these rude things proceeding from a soul that is to rise or fall according to what is now determining between us, it will not be unacceptably received from, Sir,
The admirer of your worth, Tho. Smith. March 24. 1656/7.
A Narrative of the case of T. S. by his friend.
Reverend Sir,
Mr. Thomas Smith late of Martins Ludgate London was brought up in the Protestant Religion, and for some years accounted an affectionate professor thereof, by those who were acquainted with his diligence and pains in writing out at large the notes he took of (Mr. Calamies and others) pious Sermons: but afterwards (not living up to the knowledge he had) he grew more remiss in his practice, and in his company; and became a great affliction to his Father in his life-time by reason thereof, but a greater to his Mother after his Fathers death: which I suppose Mr. Iacomb, Mr. Fauller and others of her acquaintance cannot forget. But when she understood the company he most frequented were Papists, who did at length take the boldness to resort to her house, she was very much perplexed, fearing that they had prevailed with her son to turn Papist, which she soon found, as she told me, to be so indeed. I was not willing to believe her report, but desired to satisfie my self by discoursing with himself, hoping that I should not have found his judgement determined that way, as I did to my great trouble find it to be, especially in his justification of the Jurisdiction and Authority of the Pope, and other tenets of the Church of Rome. By this time he had wasted his Patrimony, and had run himself into debt so far, that he durst not walk up and down the streets as he had done: he went a Voyage to the Barbadoes, but returned thence in a worse condition then he went, yet continued still in the opinion he had received, notwithstanding the great offence and trouble it was to those from whom he expected relief and maintenance, whose hearts and hands were in that particular somewhat shut up against him, in so much that he was reduced to manifold extremities here. Afterwards, hopeless of any livelyhood here, he went over to Ireland where he had a kinsman; but meeting with disappointment there of what he expected, he returned again into England, and steered his course to Worcester, where he had another kinsman lived; during this Voyage I exchanged several letters with him, being desirous to make him sensible of the hand of God eminently out against him, hedging up his way with thorns everywhere, which I desired might be in order to his return to God, looking upon his condition to be manifestly desperate for ever, if he should refuse to return, and harden his heart against him. At Worcester he fell sick, which through Gods blessing brought him to a more serious consideration of his everlasting state which he apprehended to approach near. And it wrought some kind of doubt in him, touching the truth of some of the chief of those things which he had entertained as true about the Church of Rome, as he informed me by his letter; whereunto for his conviction and better satisfaction, I did advise him to apply himself unto Mr. Baxter of Kederminster (who I told him I did believe was a great lover of souls) which he by letter did as he told me, and that Mr. Baxter did return him an answer thereunto in writing, with liberty to shew it to any the most learned of his way; which when he came to London he shewed me, acknowledging himself much convinced by it: and the more taken, for that so large and full an answer with that liberty should be dispatch't to him with so much expedition, which as I remember he said he had the next day after he sent his. Yet was he confident, as he said, that it would be answered, and as he told me, he had left it with one that had undertaken it; He spake of its being shewn to Embassadors or an Embassador, and that within fourteen days he should have an answer to it; but enquiring after it, I could never see any answer, nor could he notwithstanding all his solicitations and provocations used, prevail to have an answer; which he seemed to be very much offended at; and at length, as he told me, those with whom he had to do about it, were much offended with him: in so much that he intimated himself to be apprehensive of danger from some of them: yet he seemed resolved to adventure whatsoever might befall him in that respect, rather then he would stifle those convictions, which by Mr. Baxters letter had been begotten in him; This letter of Mr. Baxters, together with [The Safe Religion] a Book which he did refer him to, either then or near that time in the press, which he went for and had of the Stationer upon Mr. Baxters account, (which I had almost forgot) gave him such resolution and satisfaction, that he thereupon altered his judgement and practice, and waited upon the Ordinances here in London in our Congregations for some time; I my self having seen him at the morning exercise in London: what further effects it wrought upon him I know not; for that he left the City and went over into Flanders as his Mother hath informed me, and is since dead:
Sir, Your affectionate friend to serve you, T. S.
For Mr. William Johnson.
Sir,
WHen I was invited to this Disputation with you, I entertained hopes, from your profest desires of close argumentation, that we should speedily bring it to such an issue, as might in some good measure answer our endeavours, in taking off the covering that Sophistry and carnal interest had cast upon the truth. When my necessary employments denyed me the leisure of reading over your second Papers for some weeks; and when the loss of my Reply by the Carrier, and the difficulty of procuring another Copy, had caused a little longer delay; you urged so hard for a Reply, as put me in some further hopes that you were resolved to go through with it your self. But after near a twelve months expectation of a Rejoinder, and of the Proof of your own succession from the Apostles, being here at London, I desired you to resolve me, whether I might expect any such Return and Performance from you, or not: And when you would not promise it, I took up the thoughts of publishing what had past between us: But upon further urging you, some moneths after, you renewed my hopes, which caused me to make some stay of my publication, and to desire you to give me your sense of the most used terms; (promising you that I shall do the like, when you require it; which I am ready to perform.) But yet I hear nothing to this day of your Answer to my Papers, or the Performance of what is incumbent on you for the justification of your Church: And therefore having waited and importuned you in vain so long, and finding by your last, that you cannot or will not so explicate your terms, as to be understood (without which there is no disputing;) and also perceiving, that my abode in London is like to be but little longer; my discretion and the ends of my writing have commanded me, to forbear no longer the publication of what hath past between us: For, though the work be not copious and elaborate, yet being on a subject, which your party do so much insist upon, I am assured it may be of common use. And I know that the publication is no breach of any promise on my part, nor do I perceive how it can be any way injurious to you; and therefore I see nothing to prohibite it: And I am not willing to be used as Mr. Gunning and Mr. Pierson were, by the partial unhansome publication of another.
If yet I may prevail with you, to justifie your cause, as you are engaged, I must entreat you specially to try your strength for the proof of your own succession: for we are most confident that its a notorious impossibility which you undertake. Our Arguments against it are such as these.
1. That Church which since the time of Christ hath received a new essential part, hath not its being successively from the Apostles. But such is the Church of Rome: Ergo—
The Major is undenyable. The Minor is thus proved. A Vice-Christ, or Vice-head, or Governour of the Universal Church is an essential part of the now Church of Rome. But a Vice-Christ, or Vice-head, or Gove… of the Universal Church, is new, or a …ove…, (or hath not been from the time of Christ on earth:) Ergo, the Church of Rome since the time of Christ, hath received a new essential part. The novelty I have here and elsewhere proved: And Blondel and Molinaeus against Perron have done it more at large.
2. That Church which hath had frequent and long interceisions in its head or essential part, hath not had a continued succession from the Apostles. But such is the Church of Rome: Ergo—
The Minor is here proved: and some hints of it are in the Appendix.
3. That Church which hath had many new essential Articles of Religion, hath not had a continued succession from the Apostles: (For if the essence be new, the Church is new.) But such is the Church of Rome. Ergo—
First it is commonly maintained by you that all Articles are Essential or Fundamental: and you deride the contrary doctrine from the Protestants.
Secondly, that you have had many new Articles of Religion (of faith and points of worship) is proved by our writers, and your own confessions. See Molinaeus de Novit. Papismi. Prove a succession of all that is de fide determined in your Councils, or but of all in Pope Pius his Creed, and the Council of Trent alone; or of all that with you is de fide of those two and thirty points which I have named in my Key for Catholikes, p. 143, 144, 145. Chap. 25. Detect. 16. and I will yeild you all the cause: or I will profess my belief of every one of those points of which you prove such a succession, as held by the Catholike Church, as you now hold them.
Read and answer my Detect. 21. Cap. 33. in my Key for Catholikes.
And how far you own Innovations, see what I have proved, ibid. cap. 35. and 36.
But these arguings being works of supererogation, I shall trouble you here with no more; but wait for such proof of all your essentials, as we give you of all ours. In the mean time, I shall endeavour so to defend the Truth, as not to lose or weaken Charity, but approve my self
An unfeigned lover of the Truth and you. Richard Baxter. Sep. 1. 1660.
FINIS.
End of the text · Richard Baxter, The Successive Visibility of the Church (1660)