The English Nonconformity Under King Charles II and James II, Chapter 45
Chap. XLV. Point II. Whether Parents have not more right than our Patrons to chuse Pastors and Church Communion for their Children.
M.
II. THE next fault of Lay-Conformity is, That they are deprived of due Family-government, while a Stranger called Patron, and not the Parents, must chuse who shall be Pastor to their Children when they are at Age; and to what Church their Family shall go.
L.
Did not you say before that the King may settle Teachers in all the Parishes, and force Men to hear them? why then may he not force you and your Children, and Servants to hear them, as Catechumens?
M.
I told you that he ought to take care that no Parish want a fit Teacher, whom the willing may hear. 2. And that the negligent and unwilling be forced to hear either them or some other allowed, or justly tolerated Teacher. But I never said that 1. Because the Catechumens may be forced to hear their Parish Teacher, who are Free-men, therefore those that are Wives, Children and Servants may be forced to go to one Church, when the Husband, Parent or Master commands them to go with him to another. 2. Nor yet that those Masters that are Communicants, and not Catechumens, may be forced from hearing their own Pastors, approved or tolerated. It's enough that they be forced to hear either. And Men ought not to be deprived of the due Government of their Families.
L.
Is not the Patron as fit to chuse a Teacher or Pastor for your Wives, Children and Servants as you are?
M.
No; 1. A Mans Interest in, and power over his Wife and Children is earlier and greater than a Patrons is. It is natural, and by a Law, which no Men have power to abrogate: Self-government and Family-government are antecedent to Princes or States Government, and they have no right to dissolve it.
2. I shall gain or lose more by the welfare or misery of my Family than the Patron will.
3. Nature hath given me a greater Love to Wife and Children, and bound me to a greater care for them, than it hath done a Patron.
4. I know them better, and therefore know what they need, and what Teacher and Communion is fit for them, better than a Patron that never saw them or me.
5. Supposing that I am allowed to chuse my own Pastor and Communion, it will be inconsistent with Family-government, that my Wife, Children and Servants be forced to go to another place, where I can have no account of them what they do, and how they behave themselves.
6. If no Man may justly chuse for my Children a Tutor, a Trade, a Physician, or Diet, or Cloathing, rather than my self, (much less a worse when I chuse a better;) nor may impose Husbands or Wives on them, much less may any chuse for them against my will and choice, an Office on which their Salvation is so specially concerned.
L.
But if you may force your Wife and Children to what Pastor you chuse for them, it seems then a Man may be forced to one Pastor, rather than another: And then why may not the Magistrate force you, as well as you may force your Family?
M.
You mistake me; I do not say I may force my Family to any Pastor: I say, if they that are not Communicants but Catechumens, may be forced to one Teacher, it…s meeter for me to force them, than for a Patron or any other.
2. But as to Communion I will not force them to it at all; nor to this or that Pastor: But because different Places and Pastors for Communion, signifieth different minds, and will be a great distracting inconvenience to a Family, I will use all my reason and loving interest in them to bring them all to one place for Communion: And its very strange if I prevail not; having better advantage to satisfie their reason, and to perswade them, than a stranger hath; so that such Breaches will be very rare.
But if I be as injurious to them as some Patrons are, and would draw them to chuse an intolerable Pastor, or false Teacher, it is their Interest and Duty not to be perswaded by me to their hurt.
L.
What confusion will this make in the World, when all people, even Wives and Servants may chuse on what Pastor they will depend, and where they will Communicate.
M.
It were a happy World if you, or any did deliver it from differences, yea, or confusion. But perfect concord is no where but where is perfect knowledge, holiness, righteousness and love. If it breed confusions in the World that every Man chuse his own Dwelling, Trade, Diet, Cloathing, Wife, Servants, Travels, Company, Physician, Counsellor, Tutor, Master, Books, &c. And so that their Life, Death and Souls be more in their own power than anothers, there is no remedy: If you would devise any other Chuser for them of all these, you would cure that disorder with madness and destruction; who is it that should chuse all these for all other Men? He that chuseth for them must answer for them, and must be accordingly saved or damned for them. If God had appointed some Pope that he would always make wise and good, to chuse for the Kingdoms of China, Pegu, Tartary, Iapan, Sumatra, and all the rest of the World, what Religion they should be of, and what they should love and hate, speak and do, it would have brought the World to a happy state, if all would stand to that Mans choice: But who can teach God how to Rule the World, and say, Thou shouldst have made Man otherwise.
Will you mark this: Either it is only to command Men what to chuse, or else to make them chuse by efficient determination of their wills; or else to move them by force without or against their wills, that you would have the World saved from sin and confusion. There is but these three ways.
And I. To move them against or without their wills, is natural motion or violent, and will make none of their actions good or bad in a Moral sence: Nil nisi voluntarium est morale: Thus a Horse, a Watch, a Ship is governed: And you may lay them in what order you will, when they are dead.
II. To make them good by Physical efficient determination of Mens wills, God can do it and doth not, at least, with most. Man cannot do it: It's madness to pretend to it. And I hope you will not accuse God, who only can do it, for not cureing the sin and confusions of the World this way.
III. It is therefore only the Moral way of Cure that remaineth, by Laws, Rewards and Punishments: And hath not God made better Laws for Religion than Man can make? More infallible and perfect, with more aweful Power, and with ten thousand fold greater Rewards and Punishments? And now what mean you by saying that every Man must not be left to chuse what Religion he list? 1. Every Man is a rational voluntary Agent, and not a Stone or Brute. 2. Every bad Man is left undetermined by efficiency of God or Man in all the evil that he doth. 3. Every one in the World is left by God and Man to chuse Salvation or Damnation in the means, and to speed as he chuseth. 4. No Man is left Lawless to chuse what he will without the Obligation of a perfect Divine Law.
L.
But Men that believe not a God, and a Life to come, must be moved by temporal punishment which they can feel. Let them stay till death, and they will deride Religion, and live in wickedness.
M.
You are too confused while you talk against confusion.
1. Do you think Men that believe not a God and a Life to come are fit for Church Communion, and may be forced to it? No nor any that do not desire Christ, Grace and Glory before all the Baits of sin.
2. Did you think I had pleaded that Men may without punishment do what they list, and live in wickedness? It's one thing to restrain them from sin, and another to constrain them to sin under the name of Religion.
3. Nor did I speak against constraining Atheists and Infidels and Malignant Enemies to hear the Gospel.
4. But your force cannot constrain them to believe. And
5. You ought not constrain them to Lie and say they believe.
6. And you ought not prophanely to Lie in Christ's Name, by telling an unwilling Communicant that all his sins are pardoned, and that you Seal it to him.
Do as much good by force as you can, but do no mischief.
L.
But hath not the King more power over your Family than you have? Sure the highest power is the greatest, and containeth all the lower in it.
The last words are a great mistake: Political Power doth not contain Natural, Personal and Oeconomical, and Ecclesiastical in it; but supposeth them all unalterable and pre-existent, and only useth them to Political ends, that is, the safety and good of the Common-wealth: And as far as this end requireth, the King hath more power of my Wife, Children, Estate, Life, than I have: That is, He may see that I use my Personal and Family Government so, as may not hurt the Common…wealth, and do more harm than good.
But that Politick Power doth neither contain nor abrogate the other is evident. 1. The King doth not eat and drink for me, nor digest my Meat, nor rejoice or grieve for me. 2. The King doth not sin by my sinning, nor shall be judged, saved or damned for me. 3. The King may not chuse my Wife, Diet, &c. As aforesaid: Nor hath he right to lye with your Wife as you have, nor to dispose of your Children or Propriety. 4. The King that ruleth Priests may not do what the Priest doth, administer Sacraments, use the Church Keys, &c. So that all that he can do, is to over-rule Personal, Family and Church Governors, to the common good, without destroying them.
L.
It is for the Common good that all be forced to Communion.
M.
Yes, if you can first force them to Faith and Holiness, else it is for the common Church-confusion, Corruption, and Mens deceit and damnation, and not the common good.