Catholic Theology Plain Pure Peaceable — Richard Baxter

Catholic Theology Plain Pure Peaceable · Richard Baxter

THE Ninth Days Conference Between A. and B. OF PERSEVERANCE.

We are now come to that point, where I confeſs that the difference between you is real: But I maintain it to be ſo ſmall, as that no breach of Chriſtian Love or Communion ſhould be made for it; but it ſhould be taken for a tolerable difference among Brethren. If you think it greater, ſay your worſt of it.

The first Crimination.

By making it impoſſible to fall from Grace, they make fear, and care, and endeavour to be folly; or unneceſſary at least: For what uſe is there of fearing an impoſſible hurt? or of care and endeavour to prevent it? And ſo all religious Duties and diligence, as means, are made to be but vain.

1. You wrong them in your ſuppoſition: Except a few ignorant men Aegid: Colum. Rom. Quodlib. 3. qu. 3. p. 135. Verum eſt quod ita erit ſicut Deus praevidit: ſed non eſt quod non poſſit aliter eſſe: Propter quod ſi praedeſtinavit & videt me ſalvandum; verum eſt quod ego ſalvabor: ſed hoc non eſt verum, quod non poſſet aliter eſſe: poteſt ergo praedeſtinatus finaliter peccare, & poteſt damnari: Quia infallibilitas divinae praeſcientiae non imponit ei neceſſitatem: Attamen finaliter non peccabit nec damnabitur: Nulla eſt autem neceſſitas ſimpliciter, niſi conditionis, ſicut omne quod eſt quando eſt neceſſe eſſe: Ita & futura quae ſunt praeſentia praeſcientiae, divinae; Neceſſe eſt evenire, quae Deus praevidit: non neceſſitate ſimpliciter, ſed quia jam ſunt praeſentia Divinae praeſcientiae. Ita Malderus in 12. Tho. q. 103. a. 10. dub. 3. Jaſtus qui babet donum p…ſe…eran iae, excidere finaliter poteſt: ſed nunquam excidet. Yet ſaith that quodammodo it may be ſaid, Eum qui habet perſeverent a donum excidere non poſſe: eum autem qui non habet non poſſe non excidere. So Aug. de correp. & grat. c. 12. dicit, eos qui preſeverantiae donum non habet non poſſe perſeverare. So that this is but a ſtrife about equivocal words.that underſtand not the ſtate of the Controverſie, I meet with few or none that ſay, It is impoſſible to ſin or fall away; but only de eventu that it will never come to paſs. For they ſay (as I remember I heard Mr. Vines once preach) that our falling away is not only poſſible, but too eaſie in reſpect to us, and the habits of Grace which we have received: But they lay the certainty of our perſeverance on Gods Decree and Promiſe. Now, ſay they, God did not decree that it ſhould be non-poſſibile, but only that it ſhould be non-futurum. And ſo that he hath promiſed the non-futurity, but not an impoſſibility of falling away.

3. And yet they ſometimes uſe the term impoſſible here: But how? 1. Say they, There is a logical impoſſibilitas conſequentiae; And ſo there is on ſuppoſition of meer preſcience and prediction. For do but make this one of the premiſes [God fore-knoweth that Paul will perſevere] and it is impoſſible this concluſion ſhould be true: [Paul will not perſevere.] But yet this may be nevertheleſs true, [It is poſſible for Paul to fall away.] But this impoſſibility of conſequence in order of arguing, is nothing to the impoſſibilitas rei, in reſpect to the Cauſes.

2. And alſo they ſay, that there is impoſſibilitas hypothetica; ſuppoſing that man willfully reject not Grace, Gods Power it ſelf is ſo engaged to defend him againſt Satan and all Enemies, that it is impoſſible for them to overcome God, and deſtroy him: But here impoſſible is related to the power of Enemies only: It is a thing that Satan hath not Power to do, to conquer Grace.

3. But when the queſtion is of the Power of the Perſon himſelf, they ſay, It is unfit to ſay that he is unable to fall away, or that it is impoſſible in reſpect to his own Power. 1. Becauſe that to fall away is an effect of Impotency and not of Power. 2. Becauſe God will not ſo operate by his Grace, as to make a man unable to ſin, but unwilling, and actually to keep him from it. So that Grace doth not make us impotent to reſiſt it, and make it really impoſſible to us to fall away; but maketh us able and willing to ſtand, and cauſeth us freely de facto to perſevere.

3. And I muſt tell you, that your Crimination is grounded on a lame and faulty recitation of their Opinion; you name but half of it, inſtead of the whole: which is, [That the ſanctified never fall away from the due fear, and care, and endeavour of perſevering, and conſequently not from Sanctification or Juſtification]. And will you infer that [a man needeth not fear, care or live holily, if certainly he ſhall do ſo?]

Yes! what need I take care of that which I ſhall certainly do?

That is, what need you take care if you certainly ſhall take care!

What need I trouble my own head about that which God will do, what-ever I do? If he undertake to aſcertain it, I may leave it to him.

You talk contradictions! God doth not undertake to ſecure your Salvation whether you will or not, or care or not, or labour or not: But to cauſe you to will, to care and labour. And you ſay, If God will make me willing I need not be willing: If God will make me think of it, and care and labour for it, I need not think of it, or care or labour for it. The Sun need not ſhine if God will make it ſhine! You need not eat if God decree that you ſhall eat. Are not theſe weak Contradictions?

But as weak as you make it, the Contradiction is their own: For they firſt make God to make their falling away to be impoſſible or certainly non-futurum, and yet ſay, that he will make them fear it: that is, to perform an Act without the proper Object: As if God decreed that they ſhould fear Good as Good, or love Evil as Evil: No man can fear that which neither is, nor is taken to be fearful: An impoſſible (or certainty non-future) hurt is not fearful, or an Object of fear, unleſs to a mad man.

There were much weight in what you ſay, but for that which you leave out: 1. That objective certainty may be ſeparated from ſubjective certainty: that is, men may be uncertain of that which is certain in it ſelf. 2. Yea few of the Godly have a ſtrong aſſurance of their ſincerity and Juſtification. 3. And no man in this life hath a perfect aſſurance, no more than other perfect Graces. 4. And every mans faith it ſelf in Gods Promiſes and fidelity is imperfect. Therefore while all theſe are imperfect, and not only ſo, but liable to ſad aſſaults, and interruptions, and decays. 5. Yea and the perſon liable to ſuch hainous ſins, as look terribly towards Apoſtacy, you cannot ſay that fear is needleſs. For though God decree the certainty of their perſeverance, that proveth not that they are perfectly certain of it.

But God will not found our Duty on our Sin, nor command men to fear, becauſe through ſinful weakneſs they do fear.

God will not make our Sin to be our Duty, (in ſenſu conjuncto). 1. But God will make Duty on ſuppoſition that Sin maketh it neceſſary. If you ſin, God will make ſorrow and confeſſion your Duty, which would elſe be none. 2. Yea more, the ſame Act may be a Duty and a Sin in ſeveral reſpects. And ſo may fear of Hell be.

Stay there! Do you not then make God the Author of Sin? For if he cauſe the Act as a Duty, when it is cauſed it will prove a Sin too.

You miſtake: Two Cauſes may cauſe two Modes and Relations of the ſame Act, and one not at all cauſe that which the other cauſeth. God cauſeth every Act in genere act us which is ſinful, and yet cauſeth not the deficiency or exorbitancy of it: As the Rider maketh the Horſe go, but not to go lamely. God knowing our uncertainty of our own Election and Sincerity▪ may make it our Duty, by a wiſe and careful fear to avoid our own danger: And yet that fear may not only come alſo from ſome ignorance and unbelief in our ſelves, but have ſinful degrees, and ſo have that in it which God is not the cauſe of.

The ſecond Crimination.

Their Doctrine tendeth to the indulgence of all ſin: *One would think that the Doctrine aſſerting the loſs of Juſtification by mortal ſin were ſtricter than the Calviniſts: But judge by the Jeſuites Doctrine, who teach that a man in mortal ſin or unconverted may de congr…o merit Juſtification, Ruiz de praedeſt. exad. d. 19. …ect. 4. p. 242. Ad meritum congrui non requiritur perſonam eſſe ſimpliciter Deo gratam; quin poti…s propter peccatum mortale fit inimica Dei; nihil… minus actus fidei & alii qui ex ſide procedunt ſecundum ſe, grati ſunt, quantum ſufficit, ut juſtificationem de congruo mereantur opera nam que fraternae charitatis, Heb. 13. & miſerccordiae ſunt ut ſacrificia, quibus Deum per mortale peccatum amiſſum promeremur reconciliatum accipere: & 1 Joh. 1. ſi confiteamur, &c. So that Gods Juſtice is bound to be reconciled to, and Juſtifie a wicked enemy, for an Alms or for Confeſſion: Is not this an eaſie cure of enmity? But the promiſe is made only c…teris patibus, to true Believers, already juſt, but needing a particular remiſſion.For if a man cannot fall away however he live, he may give up himſelf to lewd carnality, and ſay, I cannot fall away.

This is the ſame ſhameleſs ſelf-contradicting Accuſation, and needs no other Anſwer. As if you ſaid, [If a man cannot fall away, he may fall away.] To give up himſelf to carnality is to fall away; And you ſay that he may do this, becauſe he cannot. The Doctrine of your Adverſaries is, That God will certainly keep the godly from turning from him to an ungodly fleſhly life: And how doth this conduce to ungodlineſs?

The conceit of ſafety will make them careleſs.

Not if they conceive that their ſafety and their carefulneſs are equally decreed. The bad and ignorant will abuſe any thing. But I am perſwaded that very many live the more holily for this belief: 1. Becauſe as Prophecies conduce to their own accompliſhment, in that what men believe will certainly come to paſs, they all promote, and will not oppoſe: So it is in part in this caſe. 2. And when they believe that God will have it be, it greatly animateth their endeavours by hope, and taketh off their diſcouragements. 3. And when they find that God hath in his Decree conjoyned their care and labour to the end, and hath no more decreed their perſeverance, than that they ſhall carefully avoid ſin and temptations, it maketh them fear that they are not Elect, when they find theſe ſigns of Election to be doubtful, and ſo preſerveth them from preſumption and ſecurity.

The third Crimination.

Their Doctrine is uncomfortable; in two reſpects, 1. In that it alloweth no man to be ſure of his preſent Juſtification, Pardon and Adoption, who is not ſure that he goeth further, yea that he is not quite in another ſtat… than any man that ever fell away: which it is not poſſible that many, if any one at all ſhould be. 2. In that it alloweth no man to be ſure of his Justification and Adoption, till he have ſo much Grace, as that no Temptation, how great ſoever, would turn him from Chriſt if he were tried by it.

Wherein is the uncomfortableneſs of theſe?

I. I have known my ſelf ſome fall to Socinianiſm, Arrianiſm, yea Infidelity, denying Christ, or his Godhead, (which is his chief Eſſence) and the Scriptures, (and therefore ſure had no ſaving Grace then, and died ſo) who had forty years lived in as eminent Piety, Humility, diligence in all religious Duties, charity to others, neglect of the World, and patient ſuffering for their Religion oft times, as almoſt any men that ever I knew. And that they did not diſſemble, not only their constancy, ſuffering and whole Converſation ſhewed, but my own intimacy with them aſſured me, by which I knew the very thoughts of their hearts. Some of them were not of judgments clear and ſtrong enough to diſcern the fallacies of Deceivers: Others of them were naturally too haſty in judging; And ſome were carried away by the advantages of the conſtant company of extraordinary able and inſinuating Seducers. But divers of them, even after they apoſtatized, did continue ſo much ſtrictneſs of life and charity to all men, and religiouſneſs in their Theiſm, and Infidel way, and neglect of the World, as convinced me, that it was more the inſufficiency of their judgments, than the hypocriſie of their hearts, which was the cauſe of their Apoſtacy. Now by the Calviniſts Doctrine, none of theſe men were ever in a ſtate of Grace: And of the ſtrictest Profeſſors round about us, there is not one of many hundreds that goeth ſo far as they did. And all theſe muſt be left uncertain of their Justification, till they are certain that they went beyond them all? yea and certain that they are unjustified, while they are certain that they came ſhort of any one of them.

The caſe that you deſcribe I have known, and it is ſad: But we know not the hearts of other men: There might be more ſin and hypocriſie in them than we know of.

Though God only be the ſearcher of hearts, yet long intimacy and near experience may make us ſo confident of ſome mens thoughts, as that I confeſs to you, you will never change my mind, if you plead againſt ſo great experience. I know their judgments were inſufficient. But I will never believe that their hearts were falſe, as to what they knew.

God hath made his Word, and not other mens hearts, the rule for us to judge our ſelves by.

But if you think that his Word tells us that we are the Children of the Devil, till we go beyond any that ever fell away, we must look both to that Word, and to ſuch Apostates.

The truth is, aſſurance of Juſtification and Salvation is not eaſily nor commonly attained: And it is not Opinions alone that will procure it: And while we have that ſin and weakneſs, which is the cauſe of doubts, which Opinion ſoever we hold, we ſhall find occaſion for our doubtings: But let us hear your ſecond part of the Accuſation.

II. They hold that if any man fall away, by what temptation ſoever, it is becauſe he was never ſincere: And conſequently that he is not ſin…ers, that would fall away by the ſtrongeſt temptation that poſſibly may aſſault him. So that every poor weak Chriſtian, whoſe Infant-ſtrength is not proportioned to the greateſt temptations, muſt needs take himſelf to be ſtill but an Hypocrite.

We ſtand not by our own ſtrength of habitual Grace, but by the upholding Love and Will of God.*Carbo ex Aquin. 1. 2. q. 137. a. 4. Si perſev… rantia ſumatur pro ipſo habitu, indiget dono habitualis gratiae, ut caeterae virtutes infuſae; ſi autem accipiatur pro actu perſeverantiae durante uſ que ad mortem, non jolum indiget habituali gratia, ſed etiam gratuito Dei auxilio conſervante hominem in bono—praedeſtinatis per gratiam Chriſti, non ſolum datur ut perſeverare poſſint, ſed ut perſeverent, ut Auguſtin. Per ſe poteſt perſeverare in malo, non autem in bono. Bradwardine who holdeth that no temptation can be overcome without ſpecial help, that is, a divine Volition or Decree, doth yet hold that the ſame Will of God which ſaveth one man by overcoming his temptations, ſaveth others by keeping temptations from them.

1. When we diſpute againſt their Doctrine, it is from the immortal quality of the ſeed of God abiding in them, that they plead for certainty of perſeverance. 2. Who findeth not by conſtant experience, that God worketh on all things according to their Natures: And ſo on man as man, and ſo on Saints as Saints, and on the weak as weak, and on the ſtrong as ſtrong. Do we not ſee that he giveth men wiſdom and all Intellectual abilities, before they ſpeak and do as ſuch abilities muſt fit them to do: When did you ſee Gods Grace make ignorant, injudicious, fools, or weak perſons, judge, ſpeak and live, in equality with the wiſe? Do we not ſee that as man is, ſo is his ſtrength and work, operari ſequitur eſſe: The ſtrong do as the ſtrong, and the weak judge and do as the weak. Why elſe doth God give men ſtrength of Grace? ſure they that think the habit of Grace muſt needs be before any act, will not hold that all our lives after, the Acts (from immediate divine production) go beyond the degree of the habits. We know that God is the chief cauſe of our perſeverance, and all our works that are good: But he cauſeth them by diſpoſing and quickening, ſtrengthening, illuminating and ſanctifying our faculties to do them; which is habitual Grace.

What is your own judgment in this point?

Our judgment is, 1. That he that truly at the preſent preferreth the pleaſing of God, and his Salvation, before all this World, is ſincere, and justified. 2. That of theſe ſome have well ſetled apprehenſions and reſolutions; but others have ſuch ſhallow Conceptions, and weak Reſolutions, as that a very ſtrong Temptation would change their minds, and overcome them. 3. But if they eſcape ſuch Temptation and be not overcome, they ſhall be ſaved: For God will not damn men for poſſible Sin and Apoſtacy, which they were never guilty of, but only for that which they did commit. 4. And that it is no certain ſign of hypocriſie, that they would have fallen away, had their Temptations been great, but only a proof that they were weak: 5. Elſe to pray [Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,] ſhould be rather [diſcover not our ſincerity or hypocriſie by temptation]. 6. Therefore God uſeth to proportion mens trials to their ſtrength: And that young and weak Believers may perſevere, he expoſeth them not (antecedently to their provocation) to great Temptations as he doth the ſtrong. Even as while a young Tree hath little rooting, it hath alſo but a little top: elſe had it the top of a great Tree, and but the roots of a Plant, the firſt great Wind would overturn it. 7. Even ſtrong Chriſtians might poſſibly have ſome Temptations, which would overmatch their ſtrength, and turn them from Christ, if God ſhould not keep them from ſuch Temptations. 8. Therefore there are ſome Temptations ſo far above the very nature of man, by ſuch Grace as is not a meer Miracle, to be overcome, as that God doth not ſuffer Mankind to be tried with them: As to be moſt exquiſitely tormented many moneths, or a longer time. And in that unuſual trial of the poor Chriſtians in Japon, though many endured thoſe torments many weeks, yet nature could not ſuſtain them to the laſt; but when they had ſuffered as much as many Smithfield burnings to death, at laſt almoſt all denied Chriſt, ſo that Christianity is now there extirpated. Now if Rogers, Bradford, Hooper, ſhewed ſincerity by ſuffering death, why ſhould we not think that theſe did ſo that ſuffered far more than they, though afterward the degree was greater than their ſtrength. 9. We hold that Gods Puniſhments and Mercies to men in this World, are very much exerciſed in either permitting or not permitting great Temptations. *The ſame Bradwardine, l. 2. c. 16. holdeth that the cauſe of the damneds obſtinacy in ſin, is not only themſelves, and Gods notwilling to cure and ſave them, but alſo Gods poſitive Will by which their obſtinate wills are for ever continued in the act. But I ſee not why we ſhould aſſert Gods poſitive Will of Sin in Hell or Earth, when his not-effectual willing to cure it is enough.And that for great ſin, he oft delivereth men up to Satan, and giveth him the greater power over them. Yea that the nature of ſin it ſelf is ſuch as giveth greater advantage to the Tempter: As he that will with Achan look on the wedge of Gold; or that will pleaſe his taſt with delicious Drinks and Meats▪ or that will permit his eyes immodeſt Spectacles, hath thereby let in the Devil into his Imagination, and will not eaſily thence cast him out: And on the other ſide, he that pleaſeth God, and conquereth one Temptation, obtaineth that Grace by which he is much ſaved from the next, and the Tempter is the more diſadvantaged and reſtrained. 10. Laſtly, We therefore hold, That ſeeing Temptations do not only try our ſincerity or hypocriſie, (elſe we ſhould deſire them, for ſelfexamination) but alſo tend to change mens minds, and make them worſe, the way to perſevere is to pray againſt and avoid Temptations, and reſiſt thoſe that cannot be avoided.

This is our judgment: In which you ſee that we hold that all weak Chriſtians that are ſincere, may have aſſurance of their preſent Juſtification, though they are not ſtrong enough to ſtand the greatest trials. And that they may well hope that God will ſave them from over ſtrong Temptations, while they ſincerely do his Will.

But Chriſt ſaith, That he that forſaketh not all that he hath, and hateth not his own life, cannot be his Diſciple. And what greater trial can there be, than the loſs of life it ſelf?

Though ſome taking it to be hard that none are true Chriſtians, that would not be Martyrs were they tried, have ſaid that this Text ſpeaketh de neceſſitate praecepti, non medii, [You muſt grow up to this at last, if you will be my Diſciples]; yet I will not ſo force the Text, but ſay as you do. But 1. There are far ſtronger Temptations than the love of Life: Though not from Intereſt, yet from falſe reaſonings, which may deceive the judgment: And one that would die for Christ while he believeth in him, may poſſibly have ſo ſtrong Temptations to unbelief as ſhall exceed in danger, his fear of death. 2. And all men that at the preſent would forſake Life and all for Chriſt, yet have not the ſame fixedneſs of Reſolution, nor the ſame degree of Faith and Love. No doubt but the Martyrs in the ſame flames had various degrees of Grace. Now a leſs firm and fixed meaſure may be looſened by degrees, or ſhaken by Seducers, and mutable man may after be overcome by that ſame Temptation which once he could have overcome.

So that I accuſe their Doctrine, as utterly inconſiſtent with true Chriſtian Comfort, on both theſe account. And ſuch is the ſucceſs of thoſe men that will overdo, and deviſe means of their own, for extraordinary comforts, which God never gave them.

The comfort of poor Chriſtians it ſeems ſtandeth but on ſlippery terms in the Opinion of both ſides, while each Party thinks that there is no true comfort in the others way. *Whether we may be morally ſure of our preſent Juſtification, the Papiſts Doctors agree not among themſelves, Bellarmine and many others affirm it, and others deny it: as Aureolus (cited by Brianſon, in 4. q. 4. fol. 36.) and others that ſay, no man can know whether his Habits are infuſed?But doth not experience confute you? Do you not ſee that many have true Chriſtian comfort that are not of your mind?

That is becauſe of ſome better Principles which they hold, and becauſe they ſee not the contradiction and inconſiſtence.

You come near to this truth; Indeed there are Principles better than either of your controverted Opinions, common to both ſides, which may afford us great Conſolation, and which ſound Chriſtians live upon. And I doubt your Diſputes on both ſides do more diſturb than comfort moſt. But this muſt be granted, that Opinions are not true, becauſe they are comfortable, nor all falſe that have any thing in them apt to trouble men, who have the ſinful matter of trouble in themſelves: no more than Phyſick is naught that maketh men ſick. We muſt take our Comforts on Gods terms. The truth is, your Doctrine ſeemeth more comfortable in the reſpects which you have named, as to the aſſurance of preſent Justification, and theirs more comfortable in another reſpect; viz. as to the continuance of it when they have it. But if this Doctrine were to be choſen by the comfortableneſs, yea and uſefulneſs of it, there is a middle way (of ſome Schoolmen) which would be preferred before both. That is, that neither any of the Elect, nor any that have attained to confirmation …r a fixed degree of Grace, do ever fall away: But that there are ſome not-Elect, who are ſincere and juſtified, but weak and mutable (as Adam in Innocency) and not confirmed, who fall away and periſh: And this Voſſius thinketh was Auguſtine's Opinion. And Grotius in his excellent Epiſtle againſt Molin: lately tranſlated into Engliſh by Mr. Barksdale, affirmeth it to be the common judgment of the Fathers: which will be no ſmall advantage to it with me. And 1. This avoideth the uncomfortable Doctrine which you charge on them; For this holdeth that a weak Chriſtian may have the comfort of preſent Juſtification, that is not certain to perſevere, nor that he is any better than ſome that fall away. 2. And it avoideth the uncomfortableneſs which they charge on you, viz. that no man can be aſſured of his Perſeverance and Salvation: For theſe hold that all the conſ…med may be aſſured of it; And that all weak Chriſtians may poſſibly attain to confirmation. 3. And it only leaveth weak unconfirmed Chriſtian… uncertain of Salvation, which both ſides are agreed in. For they confeſs that weak Chriſtians are ſeldom if ever ſure of their preſent ſincerity and Juſtification: And you hold that they are uncertain to perſevere: And ſo both of you hold them to be uncertain of Salvation. But proceed.

The fourth Crimination.

They do reproach the Holineſs of Gods people, and his …mage, and encourage moſt horrid wickedneſs, while they make all the ſ… that ever was committed by any man after his Regeneration, to be conſiſtent with Holineſs and Juſtification: not only Noah's Drunkenneſs, Lot's being Drunk and Inceſtuous two nights together, David's h…rrid Murder and Adultery, Peter's denying and forſwearing his Lord; but (for instance) Solomon they ſay was a Saint, and juſtified, when he gave up himſelf to all manner of pleaſure, and denied himſelf nothing, (and Paul ſaith, The carnal mind is enmity to God, and if ye live after the fleſh ye ſhall die,) when he clave in love to many Idolatrous women; having ſeven hundred Wives, and three hundred Co…cubins, and his Wives turned away his Heart after other gods, and his Heart was not perfect with the Lord—but he went after Aſhtoreth, the Goddeſs of the Sidonians, and after Milcom, the abomination of the Amorites, and built an High Place for Chemoth, the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of Ammon; and likewiſe did he for all his ſtrange Wives, which burnt Incenſe and ſacrificed to their gods: his Heart was turned from the Lord that appeared to him twice, 1 King. 11. 1, to 12. All this ſay the Calviniſts you may do, and yet be Saints, and juſtified and ſaved. *Bradwardine, li. 3. c. 27. having maintained that all things come to paſs by neceſſity, and cap. 29. p. 734. anſwering the Objection that this will make men caſt all their ſin on God, and be ungodly, anſwereth that it will do ſo by none but the Reprobate, and confeſſeth that ſo one of his Monaſtery did argue, and turned thereupon to a wicked life; but that he cannot help that, for he cannot predeſtinate men that are reprobated.All this may ſtand with Gods Image, and true Holineſs.

As to all the reſt, except Solomon, the ſin being one or two particular Acts contrary to the main bent and ſcope of their lives (which were holy) you ſeem, 1. To deny an evident truth, viz. that the habitual love of God was not extirpated by thoſe Sins: Can you think that habitually (though the act was hindred) Noah, Lot, David, Peter, did not then love God and Holineſs better than ſinful Pleaſures? And the Papiſts confeſs, that Sin is not mortal (that is, an evidence of ſpiritual death) till it conquer the habit of the love of God.

2. You ſeem to take your offence at the Mercy of God himſelf, becauſe he will not diſown men for ſuch a particular ſin, contrary to their general will and life. As if you provoked him to deal hardlier alſo with yourſelf, leſt he deal too eaſily or mercifully with others.

3. But they are in theſe reſolved that no man hath true Grace, that loveth not God and Holineſs above the World and ſinful Pleaſure: And they and you are agreed in this: And in the hypotheſis, if you can make them believe that any of theſe loſt that predominant habitual love, they would grant that they fell from ſaving Grace. So that thus far you agree.

4. And as for Solomon's caſe, it is too hard for us all: Some think that he had but common Grace, till that Repentance which he publiſhed in Eccleſ. And that ſo much might produce his Proverbs, which ſay they were but ſpoken by him, and written long after by others (as ſome by Hezekiah's men). Others think that he did but tolerate his Wives Idolatry, and that he aggravated his own ſenſuality in hyperbolical words, and ſo that his ſin did ſtand with true Grace: Others think that he fell into a ſtate of damnation (in which had he died he had been damned) but yet neither totally (from all feminal Grace) nor finally; and that others may do the like. In a word, the caſe is too hard for us: But our comfort lieth not in being ſure what condition Solomon was in, either firſt or laſt.

And alſo, as Means and Grace are greater under the Goſpel than they were to Solomon, and Life and Immortality more brought to light, ſo more ſpirituality and heavenlineſs is now required of us than was then of them. As long as Chriſt hath fullier deſcribed to us the title-conditions of Salvation, we have better means to judge of our ſtates, than the deciding of theſe Difficulties about Solomon would be.

This is true, but nothing to the purpoſe: we prove by Solomon that a man may fall from Grace.

How will you prove it againſt them that think Solomon had but common Grace, till he wrote Eccleſiastes, or repented of his Fall?

He was a pen-man of the Scripture (the Proverbs) before; And he was beloved of God, and excelled all others in Wiſdom.

1. Whether he wrote, or only ſpake the Proverbs, you prove not? 2. You cannot prove that writing part of the Scripture, is a more certain ſign of a Saint, than ſpeaking part of it. And Balaam ſpake part of it (what Job's Friends were, I know not.) And if many Workers of Iniquity did by the Spirit propheſie and caſt out Devils, in Chriſt's Name, how prove you that they may not write part of the Scriptures? (To paſs by that, Pilate, Feſtus, Cla…dius, Lyſta…, and other ſuch, wrote part of it.) And an ungodly Preacher may now ſpeak and write excellent things. 3. His Wiſdom which he begged, and is magnified for, is deſcribed objectively to be political, phyſical and ethical; but how far ſpiritual the Text doth not ſpeak. 4. God might be ſaid to love him, as Chriſt did that man that was not far from the Kingdom of God: Complacencially, according to the good that was in him; And benevolently, as he purpoſed his future Sanctification and Salvation.

I write not this as my own Opinion, but to tell you that you cannot prove ſo much as you think you can.

The fifth Crimination.

*Even Bradwardine, l. 2. c. 15. who goeth as high againſt Free-will as Hobs, or any man doth, yet confidently holdeth the Apoſtacy of Saints, though not of the Elect; and queſtioning what cauſeth perſeverance in Glory, he conſuteth all th…t lay it on any thing as ſufficient but Gods Will, which he calleth his Love, and the Holy Ghoſt. 1. Them that lay it on the nature of Grace. 2. Or the degree of Grace. 3. Or the ſight of God. 4. Or the intenſeneſs of that ſight. 5. Or the delight in God. 6. Or the degree of that Delight. 7. Or on uniting adheſion to God. 8. Or the degree of that adheſion. 9. Or on our not ſeeing any good which we want. 10. Or the fear of miſery by ſinning. 11. Or that the joy taketh away Free-will. 12. Or on a perfect beatitude in all theſe: All which he ſaith are inſufficient, and Gods Will is the cauſe, though uſing theſe. And ſo in this life, men ſtand or fall, not becauſe God giveth ſome his inward Grace (for that may be loſt) and others not, but becauſe God willeth the perſevering and obedience of one, and willeth it not to another]. This is over-doing of the Champion of Grace againſt Free-will.They ſhew exceeding much immodeſty, 1. In holding an Opinion which is contrary to the Doctrine of the univerſal Church, from the Apoſtles till of late times: neither Orthodox nor Heretick, being ever known to hold it, unleſs perhaps Jovinian alone, till above a thouſand years after Chriſt. No not Auguſtine and his Diſciples, who were thought by many to run towards an extream in over-pleading for Grace; ſo that they were called by ſome Predeſtinarian Hereticks. 2. And yet they have the face (inſtead of being aſhamed of their own ſingularity) to revile others as heterodox, if not heretical, who will not be as ſingular as they, and ſet as light by the judgement of Christs Church.

I am not one of them that will cite any ſcraps of the Fathers, contrary to their current expreſſions, to contradict you: Voſſius hath copiouſly related their judgments in his Pelagian Hiſtory, and that as favourably for perſeverance as there was cauſe; And Dr. Twiſſe, who frequently ſpeaketh his diſtaſt of him, ſaith nothing to prove his Hiſtory falſe. Which in this, he that readeth the Fathers muſt confeſs to be true. But this ſhould ſomewhat moderate you in your cenſure, 1. That the Writers of the firſt three hundred years are few, and their Writings (except Tertullians, Origine and Cyprian) very ſhort; (even Clements, Alexand. and Juſtins not long). And few of them very learned and accurate Writers; who are the common Managers of Controverſies: nor was this Controverſie ſtarted in their times, and therefore not accurately ſearcht into. 2. And if you ſay that this is the more for your cauſe, if it were not ſo much as made a Controverſie; I add that the Platonick Philoſophy which then moſt prevailed, might do ſomewhat to diſpoſe them that way: For as Grotius de fato hath copiouſly proved (out of above thirty Philoſophers and philoſophical Chriſtians) moſt of all the Philoſophers, eſpecially Platonists were for Free-will, and moſt learned Chriſtian Doctors came out of Plato's School, (and moſt of the learned Hereticks too). 3. And yet Laertius in Zenone tells us, That the Stoicks were againſt falling away, and taught that no truly virtuous man did ever ceaſe to be ſuch.

2. But above all, I would have you conſider, 1. That this Point was not held by theſe conſenting Doctors for an Article of Faith, and neceſſary to Church-Concord and Salvation; but as one of thoſe many Opinions which were left free. 2. And that many or moſt of theſe Fathers did agree in ſome Opinions that are not true. 3. Yea that the greater part of them are by the Papiſts themſelves charged with ſeveral Errors, and ſome and not a few with Hereſies. 4. And that therefore the holy Scriptures being the only and ſufficient Rule of Faith, we need not be ſo much aſhamed as you intimate, in ſome things to differ from the generality of thoſe Fathers, if the Scripture be more for us than them. There is many a Text of Scripture which Papiſts themſelves interpret contrary to moſt of the Fathers, notwithſtanding their Trent Oath to the contrary. Therefore your heavy Accuſation of immodeſt ſingularity is too keen. But as for their Croſs-Accuſation of you as heterodox, I now meddle not with the truth, nor excuſe any uncharitableneſs therein.

The ſixth Crimination.

They contradict abundance of expreſs Scripture, which aſſerteth that the godly may fall finally from true Grace.

And they think that you rather contradict abundance of Texts that ſpeak expreſly for the contrary: It is none of my work now to defend either them or you: I have long ago written a peculiar Tractate of my own Opinion herein: Who is in the right I am not now determining: But that you over-magnifie the difference on both ſides uſually, I ſhall ſhew you in the end. No doubt but the Scripture is of it ſelf ſufficient to decide all Controverſies, as a Rule of ſound Doctrine, ſo far as God would have them clearly decided. But yet he that denieth that ſome things in Scripture are hard to be underſtood, will contradict not only Peter's words, but his own and all mens experience. For as it pleaſed God to make up the World of variety of Creatures, ſo alſo to make up the Scripture of Truths of various degrees of neceſſity and evidence. And in this Point there are ſo many Texts, that both Sides think do favour their Opinions, that we have not the ſame certainty as in many other Points, and therefore not the ſame conſent and concord among the learnedeſt Divines, and the godlieſt Chriſtians: And in my Obſervations moſt on each ſide are more moved to their Opinion in this, from the congruity that they think it hath with other Verities or the Analogy of Faith, than from the proper plain ſenſe of the Texts which they themſelves alledge. So that though no doubt the Truth is to be found in the Scriptures, yet not with ſuch eaſe and certainty as will allow us to make the deciſion of this Point, any part of the terms of our neceſſary Concord.

Catholic Theology Plain Pure Peaceable, Conference 9

p. 198THE Ninth Days Conference Between A. and B. OF PERSEVERANCE.