The Utter Routing of the Whole Army of All the Independents and Sectaries, Pages 401-500 (2 of 3)

The Utter Routing of the Whole Army of All the Independents and Sectaries · Pages 401-500 (2 of 3)

p. 434Firſt, That all the Apoſtles and Presbyters, were all equally Depending upon God and his Word, and that all the Churches we read of in the New Teſtament were all likewiſe Dependent one upon another, and upon their ſeverall Presbyteries.

Secondly, That the people neither brethren nor ſiſters in thoſe dayes were to have their Votes or ſuffrage in the Government of the Churches, and admiſſion of members and Officers, much leſſe in Synods, that imployment belonging wholly to the Presbyters in each Church, whom God had made Rulers in his Church over them, and commanded the people to yeeld obedience unto them, Heb. 13. and therefore that all the new gathered Churches, affecting an Independency, and challenging their Votes and ſuffrage in the Government of their Churches, are all tranſgreſſors againſt both precept and example. And this ſhall ſuffice to have ſpake in way of Anſwer to Mr Knollys his vain jangling againſt my third Propoſition.

And now I will briefly Anſwer to what Sir I. S. hath to ſay to it, whoſe words are theſe, pag. 11. In aſſerting, That the Presbyters p. 435did rule the Church, and ordinarily other Churches, whom do you hit (ſaith he) ſure not the Independents, as you call them; we grant it is their part to rule: but we diſtinguiſh (ſaith he)? between Authority and juriſdiction on the one hand, and power and intereſt on the other: this latter (ſaith he) belongs to the people, the other is proper to the Officers, which yet they exerciſe in the name of the Church: ſo they (i) the Officers ordain, they excommunicate (i) pronounce excommunication, they lead and direct in all government and diſputes, they have executative power as you demand pag. 93. but the people have a power and intereſt too, as thoſe places alleadged by your ſelfe ſhew expreſly, Act. 15. for though ver. 2. Paul and Barnabas are ſaid to be ſent by the Apoſtles and Elders onelyonly, yet ver. 4. they are ſaid to be received of the Church, and Apoſtles and Elders; therefore they were ſent unto the Church alſo; and that word foreign with one accord ver. 25. imports a multitude met together; and this to be the reſult of that multitude, elſe it were no great commendation of the reſolution that it was convened and iſſued forth foreign. And though onelyonly the Apoſtles and Elders are mentioned, as comming together to conſider of the queſtion, verſe 6. yet it is ſaid, verſe 22. that it pleaſed (not onelyonly the Apoſtles and Elders) but the whole Church alſo; therefore the Church alſo came together to conſult; or the Apoſtles and Elders as a Cnmmittee, firſt prepared the diſpute, as not counting it ſo ſafe perhaps to admit the weake to the ſame, while it was intricate, and then reported it, and had their aſſiſtance and concurrence; and the Letters of reſolution run in the name of the brethren (i.) the Church as well as the Apoſtles and Elders, ver. 23. and ſo in Ordination foreign (i) Election by lifting up the hand belongs to the brethren, though foreign (i.) impoſition of hands be proper to the Officers, where there are officers as in a Church conſtituted and compleat.

Thus ſpeaks I. S. in the name of all his brethren in way of anſwer to my third Propoſition, the errors of whoſe expreſſions ſhould I but only name them all ſeverally they would take up ſome time and a great deal of paper; but ſhould I undertake the ful confutation of them all and diſcover all the impiety, evil and wickedneſs that lyeth couched in theſe his words, I might make a juſt volumn and ſpend ſome moneths in the imployment: for groſſer errors my eyes never beheld, and ſuch as are more contrary unto the holy Scripture, and to the honour and dignity not onelyonly of the Apoſtles p. 436and Presbyters in the Church at Ieruſalem and in all Churches, but to the very dignity and honour of Chriſt himſelfe the King of his church who the Independents moſt ſhamefully diſthrone) as I ſhall by and by make appear God aſſiſting me whiles notwithſtanding they make the greateſt noiſe of ſetting him up King in his Church: And to ſpeak the truth, though the Independents ſeem to hate Popery, their doctrin is Popery it ſelf only the upſide of it turn'd down and the reare made the front, otherwiſe there is no great difference between their Tenents, but that the Independent doctrine is more ſhamefully erroneous (as will be made evident) and more derogatory to the honour and dignity of Chriſt the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and to the honour and dignity of the Apoſtles and Presbyters and more tending to confuſion and the overthrow of all Government in Church and State, all the which aſſertions that they may be made a little more evidently manifeſt, I will briefly run over and examine ſome of the paſſages in this his anſwer; for to diſcover but halfe the errors of it, they would weary the Reader to hear them; and to ſpeak but the verity, he that ſhall have to do with ſuch whibling and unlearned fellows as I. S. and Hanſerdo Knollys are, had need to be a man of intolerable patience.

But before I begin with him, I ſhall deſire the Reader to conſider, whether I. S. be not guilty of interferring tautology and great confuſion, crimes he layes to my charge to uſe ſome of his own language Page 15. and 16. if not contradiction, and be not great of his own ſenſe, and a very catechumenos, and one that hath as well need of inſtruction as of refutation, for as much as to me it ſeems unmeet, that a man ſhould be polemically exerciſed before he be poſitively principled: theſe things I refer to the Readers conſideration and now I go to my work.

In aſſerting (ſaith I. S.) that the Preſbyters did rule that church, and ordinarily other churches, who do you hit? Not the Independents as you call them; (ſaith he) We grant it is their part to rule: but we diſtinguiſh between avthority and juriſdiction on the one hand, and power and intereſt on the other: this latter belongeth to the people; the other is proper to the officers, which yet they exerciſe in the name of the Church: So they (i.) the officers ordain, they excommunicate (i.… pronounce excommunication, they lead and direct in all governments and disputes, they have the executive power, but the people have a power and intereſt too &c. And in the 12. page. In p. 437Ordination (ſaith he) Election belongs to the brethren, but impoſition of hands is proper to the officers, where there are officers as in a Church conſtituted and compleat. Thus profound I. S. I ſhall intreat the Reader here to take notice, what he grants, and what he denyes, and how at every turn he juggles.

Firſt he grants that the Preſbyters did rule the Church of Jeruſalem and ordinarily other Churches, and ſaith, that my Argument hits not the Independents; for they, as he in the name of them all aſſerteth, grant that it is the Preſbyters part to rule. So that if he had ſtayed here, there had been ſome ingenuity in him, but with the ſame breath he blaſteth yea bloweth down all that he had formerly ſet up, and that with a windy vain American diſtinction (which he hath borrowed out of ſome of thoſe monſtrous Pamphlets that come from thence, called the way and the keyes, &c. which are fraught with nothing …ut Peacocks, Parrets, and Jackanapes or more miſchievous things though gayly ſet forth) with the which he befooles himſelf and amaſes yea deceives the poor and ignorant people whiles they go gazing after them: For ſaith he, We diſtinguiſh between authority and juriſdiction on the one hand and power and intereſt on the other, and this latter belongs unto the people, the other is proper to the officers, &c.

But before I come to my anſwer, I muſt tell I. S. that from whom ſoever he hath borrowed this diſtinction it is groundleſſe and has no Warrant for it in ſacred writ; yea I hope to make it good that it is contrary unto it, and therefore it was well ſaid by a learned Profeſſor of Divinity in the Univerſity of Oxford, that it was an eaſie thing to finde diſtinctions in ſchoolmen to mocke God and deſtroy their own ſouls, and thereupon exhorted all his Scollers to be very carefull leſt out of reſpect to mens perſons and from the conceipt they had of their piety and abilities in learning they were not deceived: And the ſame exhortation may now in theſe our dayes be of very good uſe, eſpecially when a lying ſpirit is gone out into innumerable falſe Prophets as it did in Ahab his time and when a ſpirit of error is gone out into the world and is to be found in every houſe of the Independents in all theſe regards, I ſay the caveat and exhortation of that reverend Divine may now be very uſefull and ſerviceable for theſe our times. And therefore it ſtands all men upon to prove and examine all things according to the Apoſtles rule 1 Theſſ. 5. ver. 21, and hold faſt that which is good. p. 438Now in Divine matters and in the matters of our God we muſt be eſpecially careful that we ſee a ground & warrant out of his word, or from excellent reaſon or good conſequences deduced from thence; for whatſoever opinion or diſtinction in ſacred things ſhall be brought and propounded unto us, and if it have not its authority or ground from thence or ſome example or preſident or ſollid reaſon or good conſequence out of the ſame word to warrant and confirm it, it is to be rejected by all good Chriſtians, eſpecially if it conſiſt of captious, doubtful and ambiguous expreſſions, and which will admit of various and different interpretations, and to all the reſt be found contrary to the word of God, as this grolliſh diſtinction brought by I. S. doth: for he makes a diſtinction between authority and juriſdiction on the one hand, and power and interest on the other, as if there were ſome vaſt difference between them when all learned men know, that authority, juriſdiction and power are all one, as when a Magiſtrate making uſe of either of theſe words ſays ſuch an one is under my authority or juriſdiction or power, all men know that either of thoſe words ſignifies his authority over him and thoſe expreſſions intimate one & the ſame thing. But as for the word intereſt which he makes a Synonima with power, it is a meer grollery, for that is a word of ambiguity and of various ſignifications, and admits of divers interpretations, and therefore cannot be the ſame with power, the meaning of the which I am confident that I. S. himſelfe knoweth not, but this word ſerves the turne of our American brethren and thoſe of the Congregationall way here to juggle withall: But if a man would but ſeriouſly conſider and weigh what the meaning of this word intereſt ſignifieth in their dialect, and what they underſtand by it, if they would ſpeak out, they ſhall finde that by that diſtinction of power and intereſt in the people, by intereſt they mean and underſtand a title or right or due in the people, both to the property and poſſeſſion of all the power in Church and State and beleeve that it is originally and radically in the people and that it is properly their due and right, and from them onelyonly delegated to the officers of Church and State, whom as they do betruſt with it, ſo they may at pleaſure take it from them again; and this that I now ſay the Pamphlets of theſe times many of them can witneſſe is their meaning by intereſt; amongſt others that of Englands birth right and John Lilburns learned Letter who in the 14 Page of the ſame hath theſe words.

p. 439For my part (ſaith he) I looke upon the Houſe of Commons as the ſupreme power of England, who have reſiding in them that power that is inherent in the people, who yet are not to act according to their owne wils and pleaſures, but according to the conſtitutions and customes of the Land, &c. out of whoſe words it is apparently evident, that they make all power to be inherently in the people as their birth-right, to which they may at any time make as good title and claime as to their inheritance, and that they in their language call intereſt, & this alſo can be proved out of many of the Independents Pamplets, and from their words, that if they conceive the Parliament uſe not that power they are intruſted with, according to the conſtitutions and cuſtomes of the land, they may at any time by the people be deveſted of it, or at leaſt queſtioned; I am confident I ſay there would be no great difficulty to prove as much as I now ſay has beene uttered by the Sectaries of theſe our times, and I am moſt aſſured if they increaſe but to a little greater number, that unleſſe the Lord ſhew his mighty power in preſerving the Parliament, if they ſhould in the leaſt diſpleaſe them, and not humour them to their content, they would put that in execution, and really act what now they but mutter in corners, and ſet forth in libellous Pamphlets, and in warning peeces, as in Londons late Warning-peece; ſo that this truth is very wel knowne that by power and intereſt in the Independents language, which they place in the people and not in the officers, they meane the ſoveraigne and ſupreme authority, and all ſay that it is their peculiar birth-right, and that they are the Parliament and Iudges, and that the officers are but their ſervants, either to prepare matters for their hearing, or for executing of what they would have them to doe, and that whatſoever they ſpeake of authority and juriſdiction in the officers, it is onelyonly to pleaſe them a little by putting a rattle into their hand that may looke gayly, and make a little noyſe but have no ſtrength in it: for they keepe all power in their owne hands, and this I hope to make good out of I. S. his diſtinction, and that to the diſhonour of God himſelfe, as well as to the overthrowing of all authority in time through the world, and therefore this diſtinction muſt neceſſarily be againſt the word of God. But that my charge againſt I. S. and thoſe of his party, (for hee writeth in the name of them all) may the better appeare to all that ſhall reade this Booke, I will here againe repeate his anſwer to p. 440my Argument with his diſtinction: The Jndependents (ſaith hee) grant that it is the Presbyters part to rule, but (ſaith he) wee diſtinguiſh betweene authority and juriſdiction on the one hand, and power and intereſt on the other: this latter belongs unto the people, the other is proper to the officers which they exerciſe in the name of the Church, &c. If hee had ſaid in the name of Chriſt it had been better; but all error is like unto ſinne, it ſeldome goes ſingle and alone, for here I. S. commits a multiforme error in robbing not onelyonly the Presbyters and Miniſters of Chriſt of their due honour, but in robbing alſo the Lord of life himſelfe of his dignity and royaltie, and making all the Miniſters and Officers of Ieſus Chriſt, and his peculiar ſervants but the vaſſales and ſlaves of the people who they call the Church, ſo that according to I. S. his learning all the Officers and Miniſters of Chriſt are at the peoples diſpoſing, for they are all of them to act as the Church directs them, and they muſt doe it alwayes in the name of the Church, and this is the Hyſteron Proteron Divinity of the Independents, in all which they deale moſt wickedly on every ſide, ſo that when they ſeeme to ſpeake the Miniſters faireſt, they abuſe them to their face; for here I. S. by that diſtinction of his would perſwade the world that the Independents give great honour to the Miniſters, in ſaying that authority and juriſdiction belongs unto them and is theirs properly, and that only power and intereſt belongs unto the people, and yet in the ſame breath before hee hath paſſed two ſteps, by his owne deſcription of the power and intereſt which hee grants unto the people, hee gives away all that authority and juriſdiction that hee ſpake of a little before, not onelyonly from all the Miniſters and Presbyters of the Goſpel, but from Chriſt himſelfe the King of his Church, and inveſts the people with it, which hee cals the Church, ſaying, that the Officers are to exerciſe their authority and juriſdiction in the name of the Church, ſo that it is evident according to his Divinity that the Miniſters of Ieſus Chriſt are but the ſlaves of the people; and that all men may ſee that this is his meaning, he in the 12. page ſaith, that the very Apostles and Elders in the Councell and Synod at Ieruſalem were but as a Committee to prepare the diſpute, and then to report it for the aſſistance nnd concurrence of the multitude; theſe are his owne words, by all which, if hegives not the people, by his diſtinction of power and intereſt, a greater authority then hee gives unto the Apoſtles and Presbyters, p. 441and to Chriſt himſelf, let every ingenious man judge, which is not only a horrid impiety, but abominable in juſtice & ſacriledge: yea every man may plainly perceive, & that out of his own words, and from the language of al the Independents, that he inveſts the people with all authority under that diſtinction of power and intereſt; for in ſaying in the ſame pag. that in ordination, election of officers belongs unto the brethren, and impoſition of hands to the officers, where there are officers, as in a Church conſtituted and compleate, by theſe words hee inveſts the people with all full and ample authority as any men are capable of or can be betruſted with: for amongſt many of the Independents to my knowledge, they make nothing of ordination and impoſition of hands, and count it but a complement that makes nothing to the eſſence of any officers (as they ſay) for they aſſert that it is ſufficient to make any man an Officer or Miniſter if hee be once choſen by the people, and it is the election of the church, and their call as they ſay that makes officers, without which they affirme they can bee no true officers; ſo that if election be the maine and eſſentiall buſines required for the making of Church-officers, and as they teach their followers, and they give the power of election to the church or people, and affirme that all things are ever to be done in the name of the church, it matters not with them whether they be ordained, or have any impoſition of hands or no; that being in their dialect but a complement, or a needleſs ceremony (for ſo I have heard them ſpeak) the which ordination alſo, though they ſay it belongeth unto officers, notwithſtanding the church and people make no ſcruple to exerciſe it at any time and to put it in execution if they thinke it fit, as the practiſe of the new gathered Churches daily teaches all men; yea, wee may gather as much out of I. S. his owne expreſſions, that the power of ordination as well as of election reſides in the people and lies in their hands, who ſaith, that impoſition of hands is proper to the officers where there are officers in a Church conſtituted and compleate, intimating that if they have no Church-officers they themſelves may then ordaine them, and this is the practiſe of ſome of the churches of the congregationall way, by all which their language and proceedings, if by their diſtinction of power and intereſt they doe not aſſume & arrogate all power to themſelvs, and take it into their owne hands, and inveſt the people with plenary authority over all Miniſters in Church and State, I know not what it is to conferre p. 442authority on any people. It is moſt notoriouſly knowne, that our Independent Gentlemen would place all authority in the people, and would have the Magiſtrates and Miniſters in Church and State all dependent upon them, and expect their election and ordination from them, and they onelyonly would be independent; and all this may be gathered not only from their words and practiſes, and out of all their Pamphlets, but even from I. S. his owne diſtinction of power and intereſt, which hee ſaith belongs unto the people: having thus from their owne Principles ſufficiently elucidated that by the Independents doctrine, and by their diſtinction of power and intereſt they aſſume all authority to themſelves, whiles they pretend they give authority and juriſdiction to the Ministers; I will now ſet forth their wickedneſſe in ſh…wing how they rob Chriſt of his honour, and the Apoſtles alſo and Presbyters of Ieruſalem of their dignity and power as well as they doe all other ordinary Presbyters of their due honour and authority.

And I will firſt begin with their dealing towards Chriſt the King and Lord of his Church which is his Kingdome. All thoſe that know how the Kingdomes and Empires of the world a…e governed, know that all their Councels, Embaſſadours, Judges, Rulers and Officers under them, either in the time of peace or warre, in all their acts of government▪ and in all their precepts and mandates, whether Imparative or Prohibitive, and in all their Courts of Judicature, tranſact and paſſe all things with all their writs and ſummons in the name of the King or Emperour▪ and for any Magiſtrate or any Court to iſſue out any writ, warrant, mandate or ſummons in their owne name, and by their owne authority makes them fall into a Praemunire, and makes them guilty laeſae majestatis; ſo that all warrants run in the name of the King or Emperour; and whoſoever fayleth in this kind, as not to command in the Kings or Emperours name, doth make himſelfe a Delinquent, and this if I am not miſtaken was one of the charges againſt the Prelate of Canterbury, that hee iſſued out writs and ſummons in his owne name, or in the name of his Court.

Now Chriſt is the eternall King of his Church, that immortall and mighty Potentate, in whoſe name all the Prophets of old …ſſued out all their warrants and mandates, ſpeaking ever to the people in the name of the Lord, ſaying, thus ſaith the Lord; nothing p. 443was done in the name of the Church, or in the name of any creature in thoſe dayes, and God never changed the ſtile of iſſuing out his warrants, neither did Chriſt reſigne his regall dignity, or put it into the hands of the Church, but is ſtill their King, and he keepes the ſame tenure ſtill all through the New Teſtament as well as through the old, commanding that all ſhould be done in the name of God, ſaying, Matth. 28, 19. Goe ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Sonne, and of the Holy Ghoſt; teaching them to obſerve all things whatſoever I have commanded you; and loe, I am with you all even to the end of the world, amen.

By the way take notice the very Apoſtles themſelves were limited what to preach, they might not exceed their bounds, they muſt teach nothing but what Chriſt the King of his …hurch commanded them; but Chriſt never taught his Apoſtles or any of his true Miniſters, to iſſue out any thing in their owne name, for that was the cuſtome of all falſe Teachers; neither did hee ever teach them to iſſue out any thing in the Churches name, or ſay unto them at at any time, what you doe in all Adminiſtrations let it be done in the Churches name; Chriſt I ſay taught nothing of all this; that is but the new blaſphemous ſtile of our new gathered churches, and of our new church officers, who J. S. ſayes muſt exerciſe their authority & Iuriſdiction in the name of the church; whereas Chriſt our King and Law-giver, as in the place above quoted, ſo in Mark 16. v. 17. In my name (ſaith he) they ſhall caſt out Devils, &c. all in the church was to bee done by all the faithfull Miniſters and people of God in Chriſts name, the King of his church. And ſo S. Peter accoring to his Maſters command in his Sermon in the 2. of the Acts, preaching unto all the people and new converts, ſayes nothing to them in the name of the Church, but in the 38. verſe ſaith, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of the Lord Ieſus Chriſt, &c. H…e was a faithfull officer, and did nothing in the churches name: hee was not acquainted with our new Divinity; and in the 3. chapter, when hee cured the Creeple. verſe the 6. In the name of Ieſus Chriſt of Nazareth (ſaith hee) riſe and walke; and ſo Saint Paul had learned his Leſſon well, who when hee caſt out the ſpirit of Divination out of the Damoſell in the 16. of the Acts, verſe 18. ſaith unto it, I command thee in the name of Ieſus Chriſt to come out of her, and hee came out at the ſame houre. p. 444Nothing was done in thoſe dayes in the Churches name, but in the name of their King Ieſus Chriſt; to omit many other places, we have a ſpeciall command in the 3. of the Coloſſ. verſe 17. whatſoever you doe (ſaith the Apoſtle) in word or deed, doe all in the name of the Lord Ieſus, giving thankes to God, and the Father by him: all Chriſtians are bound to doe all in Chriſt their Kings name. Yea, the Apoſtle in the 1 of the Corinth. the fifth chapter, verſe the 3. and 4. teaching the Corinthians, and in them all Chriſtians, in whoſe name all acts of Church governemt ſhould be managed and exerciſed, ſaith I verely as abſent in body but preſent in ſpirit have judged already, that hee that hath done this doed, in the name of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt when ye are gathered together, and my ſpirit, with the power of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, to deliver ſuch an one unto Satan for the deſtruction of the fleſh, that the ſpirit may bee ſaved in the day of the Lord Ieſus. Here the Apoſtle teacheth all Miniſters of all Churches, that as all beleevers are to be received into the Church in the name of the Lord Ieſus their King; ſo when any for their diſorderly walking are to be caſt out, they are to exerciſe all thoſe acts of government, and to caſt them out in the name of the Lord Ieſus Chriſt their King, hee knew nothing of this new ſtile, that our Independents and learned I. S. publiſh to the world, who in terminis ſaith, that that Authority and Iurisdiction that is proper to the officers is to be exerciſed in the name of the Church; theſe are his words, in the name of all his brethren, ſaying, the Officers ordaine, and they pronounce excommunication, they leade and direct in al government & diſputes, & have the executive power, but the people have a power and intereſt too; that is in his learning, the officers muſt yet exerciſe their power and Iuriſdiction in the name of the Church, ſo that the Miniſters are but the churches ſervants at pleaſure, and their executioners. This is our American Divinity, ſo that whereas wee are taught by Chriſt himſelfe, and all his bleſſed Apoſtles to doe all in the Church in the name of Chriſt our King, theſe our confiding brethren, and our Itinerary Ill-dependent Predicants have brought in a new ſtile of exerciſing all acts of church government, and that not in Chriſt the Kings name, but in the name of the Church; and whereas the Church of Jeſus Chriſt is the moſt abſolute Monarchy in the world, in the which all things ſhould be done and acted according to his command, and in his name, they have changed this Monarchy into ſo many thouſand p. 445ſucking Democraſies, or rather ſo many Anarchies, in all the which they tranſact all things, and ſend out all their Writs & Warrants in the name of their ſeverall new Churches, and ſo have diſ-throned Chriſt, whom notwithſtanding they pretend to ſet up as King in his Church. But whether in this their ſo dealing with Chriſt, and with his people and ſubjects they are not more Independently and arrogantly blaſphemous, then the Pope himſelfe, or any Prelates that ever the world yet ſaw, I leave it to the ſaddeſt thoughts & deepeſt conſideration of all ſuch as truly love the Lord Ieſus, and deſire from their ſoule the glory of his Kingdome, and that hee may be our ſole Monarch and eternall King, and may perpetually rule in his Church, and have all things done in his alone name, and according to his owne appointment; to the judgement I ſay of all ſuch cordiall ſubjects of Ieſus▪Chriſt, and to their ſeriouſeſt thoughts and cenſures I leave the conſideration of this weighty buſines: I am confident they will conclude their blaſphemy was yet never paralleld by the very Pope himſelfe, or by any of his ſhavelings, who were never yet ſo notoriouſly uſurping and iniurious to Chriſt the King of his Church, as to ſend out their Mandates in their owne name, but all things iſſued out in in nomine domini, hence came up the Proverbe, when they heard of any thing from the Pope, that they uſually ſaid in nomine domini incipit omne malum, for he always pretended to do al in the name of Chriſt the King, for that ſtile notwithſtanding did that man of ſinne ever obſerve and keepe, continually ever ſetting forth his grolleries in nomine domini, whereas our Independent Brethren act all their baggatelly and trifling buſines in the name of their ſeverall churches, their officers ever ſaying, when they carry or bring any learned Meſſages one from an other, that they come in the name of the churches, and what they doe, they would have them know they doe it as officers in the name of the church; Chriſts name the King of his church is never ſo much as heard amongſt them in the tranſacting of their church affaires, ſo that wee may truely ſay, that whatſoever they pretend of ſetting up Chriſt as King upon his Throne, their practiſe ſheweth the contrary; for in the government of all their ſeverall churches, they act all not in the name of Chriſt, but in the name of their ſeveral churches; ſo that Chriſt the Kings name is not ſo much as mentioned amongſt them (as wee have learned not onelyonly from their p. 446daily practiſe, but from I. S. and our American monſtrous Divinity.

To all that I have ſaid for proofe that all the Independents by their doctrine diſthrone Chriſt and ſet themſelves in his place whiles they moſt of all pretend they ſet him up upon his Throne, I may for a corallary add their new traditions and practiſes which they impoſe upon all the Members of their ſeverall new gathered churches as the commandments of God and as the practiſes of the Saints of old, and injoyne them and urge them as the ſtatutes, ordinances and decrees of God; yea I might here farther ſhew how they practice contrary unto Chriſt's the King and Lord of his Church commands: For whereas he ſending out his Diſciples and Apoſtles ſetting down the conditions upon which all men ſhould be admitted into the Church, which were to repent and beleeve and to bebaptized in token of their belieſe and repentance, which whoſoever ſhould accept of and imbrace, they ſhould thereupon be received into Church fellowſhip; the Illdefendents notwithſtanding regard not Chriſts commands, but unto it add their own vain traditions, for the which they have neither precept nor preſident in all holy writ nor the practice of any well reformed church; and they force men to conforme unto them, or elſe there can be no admiſſion; howſoever they offer themſelvs to do as much as Christ their King commands them to do. And whereas Christ the King of his church layd the Government of it upon the ſhoulders of none but his Miniſters, to whom he had given the Keyes; the Ildependents not onelyonly dispenſe with this law at pleaſure, but abſolutely oppoſe it; for contrary unto this law is their doctrine and practice who teach that the power and intereſt lies in the people, and that is their part, and that the Miniſters are to exerciſe their authority and juriſdiction in the churches name, and ſo they ſpoile the Miniſters of their power and inveſt the people with it, and give lawes unto the people of God, yea unto the Law…iver Chriſt himſelfe; whether all theſe dealings therefore of the Illdependents with many more paſlages of the like nature that might be produced, if not worſe, be not to diſthrone Chriſt, when they ſlight his Laws and prefer their own traditions before the commandments of Chriſt the King of his church and revile and reproach his ſervants and officers offering all the indignity that can be committed againſt men to them all, I leave it to the judgement of the p. 447wiſe and godly. Again I refer it to the wiſdome of any diſcerning ſpirit to conſider and judge what difference there is between the Sectaries and the Pope and his conclave in this point, whenas they both aſſume all authority to themſelves and take it from the Miniſters, and make them but their executioners: Surely they will finde them both equally guilty and both Antichriſtian in rebelling in all things againſt Chriſt; For Chriſt ſaith to all men that they that deſpiſe his Miniſters deſpiſe him, and they that despiſe and ſlight Chriſt, in as much as in them lies they diſthrone him, and therefore when all the Independents dayly practice all the malifices above mentioned, and that in a higher manner and ſtrain, pretend they what they will of ſetting up Chriſt upon his Throne, they plainly diſthrone him & diſhonour him; which may yet further appear if we conſider ſome of their other paſſages; for it is well known that ſome of the chiefe pillars in their houſes and churches thoſe Atlaſſes that ſome of them confide ſo much in for their ſtrength and ſo much extoll for the preaching up of Chriſts Kingdome and for the ſetting of him up upon his Throne, I ſay ſome of theſe as it is well known have upon the Frontiſpices of their Pamphlets ſet this title Againſt Jeſu Worſhip.

Now although it be praiſe worthy in any in maintenance of Gods true worſhip and ſervice to write againſt all Idolatricall or Superſtitious worſhip of the true God or Jeſus, yet it is a thing no way beſeeming any Chriſtian to write agaiſt God Worſhip and Ieſu-Worſhip which are both commanded becauſe that ſome faile and erre in the manner of the Worſhip of either God the Father or God the Sonne: Yea, it would have been thought in any Chriſtian Nation an unſufferable thing to have tolerated the very reading or publiſhing of any books with ſuch a title and inſcription though the matter in them might have been good: for no man much leſſe a Chriſtian o…ght to write againſt Ieſu-Worſhip no more then he ought to write againſt God-Worſhip, for Ieſus alſo is God bleſſed for ever, the eternall Son of the eternall Father, who hath commanded all his Diſciples Iohn 5. To worſhip the Son as they worſhip the Father; Now then if it be an unſufferable thing to write againſt God-Worſhip, no leſſe intolerable is it in any to write againſt Ieſu-Worſhip, and all ſuch as write ſuch books and all ſuch as allow of them and approve of them and their authors, let them pretend what they will of ſetting up Chriſt upon his Throne, all p. 448ſuch as theſe are I ſay, make Chriſt a Pagent King and ſalute him with haile Master as the Jews did, to uſurpe ſome of their own rhetorick and learned elequence, but indeed they diſthrone him: For what is it to diſthrone a King if writing of Warning Peeces, and Pamphlets againſt Kings▪ſervice and Kings-honour be not? And what I pray is it to diſthrone a King▪ if this be not to paſſe all acts of Government in the peoples name, and to ſend out all their warrants and mandates in the peoples name, and to command all their officers to manage all their imploiments in the peoples name, never ſo much as mentioning or taking notice of the King in a publique act of Government? Are not all theſe actions and paſſages to any rationall creature a ſufficient demonſtration that the King in that Kingdome is either abſolutely diſthroned or is but a King to them in ludibry as Chriſt was to the wicked Jews? I am confident that all underſtanding men will ſo conclude. Now when in all the new congregations thoſe new gathered churches the Ildependents there have ſuch amongſt them that write books and that with their approbation againſt Ieſu-Worſhip, that is, againſt the Worſhip of Ieſus who is the eternall King of his Church, and when every day in all their particular churches they exerciſe all the acts of Government in the name of their churches, and not in Chriſts the Kings name, and that againſt the command of Chriſt and his Apoſtles; I affirm and by the grace of God I hope ever to make it good, that all this is not onelyonly a robbing Chriſt our Lord and King of his due honour, but a blaſphemous and more then a Papall uſurpation and derogating from his Kingly dignity and royalty, yea it is indeed a plain diſthroning of Chriſt their King and thruſting him out of his place and putting themſelves in it, which whether or no it be not the higheſt point of contumacy, rebellion and blaſphemy, I leave to the judgment of others; as for my ſelf, I know not what either of theſe things be if they be not blaſphemy; for when I learned Divinity I was taught that blaſphemy conſiſted in this, either to give unto God that that belonged not to him and to the excellency of his Majeſty & divine nature, or to detract from him that that peculiarly belonged either to the eſſence, perſons or glorious attributes of the diety, or to give the honour properly and peculiarly due to God the Father, Sonne, and Holy Ghoſt or to any perſon in the glorious Trinity, to any creature, or malitiouſly or wickedly to speak evill of God his eſſence, attributes, word, works, &c. or to do or act any thing obſtinately p. 449and wilfully that is or may be derogatory to the dignity and honour of the Divine Majeſty of God bleſſed for ever; any of theſe things, when I ſtudied Divinity, were thought blaſphemy and worthy of ſevereſt puniſhments, and thoſe that perpetrated any of thoſe crimes were reputed unworthy to live, and proclamed blaſphemers and men unſufferable: and yet there are many ſuch kind of creatures in our new gathered Churches who are guilty of all that can be called blaſphemy, and that rob Chriſt the Lord of his Worſhip and write againſt Ieſu-worſhip, & blaſpheme the holy Scriptures, and deny the diety of Chriſt and the bleſſed Trinity &c. and diſthrone Chriſt in their new Congregations whiles they cry hail Maſter, exerciſing all acts of Government amongſt themſelvs in the name of the Church, never ſo much as mentioning the name of Chriſt the King▪ and many more intolerable inſolencies they dayly commit againſt the Soveraign Majeſty of heaven and earth the Lord Jeſus Chriſt our Lord and King; and all theſe notwithſtanding are counted Saints that commit theſe vices and malifices; and great books are writ in defence of all theſe wicked blaſphemous wretches, and both their errors and their perſons are countenanced, and that by their great Rabbyes and Champions, all which notwithſtanding are in Gods dialect and in his holy Word both old and new counted abominable creatures, and men unholy and diſpleaſing unto God, and the acters and abetters and countenancers of all ſuch blaſphemies and wickedneſſes were thought equally guilty, and great and fearfull judgements were denounced againſt them all as it is apparently evident out of Gods holy Word, and yet theſe great evills are counted but the infirmities of the Saints amongſt our Independent maſters. Now then I ſay when the Illdefendents are guilty of all theſe crimes, as partly acting them, partly tolerating ſuch as are both actors and abetters, or conniving at them and countenancing them, pretend they what they will of ſetting up Chriſt upon his Throne▪ I hope to be ever able to make it good, that they all of them diſthrone Chriſt & manifeſt to the world that as much as in them lies they would not have him raign over them, and ſo make themſelves guilty of that crime they lay to the Presbyterians charg whom they dayly accuſe to be enemies of Jeſus Chriſt & his Kingdom and ſuch as would not have Chriſt rule over them, when notwithſtanding the Presbyterians do and ever will by Gods divine aſſiſtance ſet up Chriſt King upon his Throne, and ſhall ever deſire p. 450that all honour and glory and praiſe may be given for ever and ever to the King eternall, immortall, inviſible the only wiſe God the King of Saints and King of Kings, and that he may ſolely rule for ever, and that all his enemies and ſuch as rob him of his honour and dignity may be made his footſtoole, in the number of which the greateſt part of the Sectaries are and all ſuch as comply with them.

And this ſhall ſuffice to have ſpoken concerning the firſt part of my undertaking againſt I. S. which was to ſet forth the wickedneſſe of the Independents and to ſhew how by their doctrine they rob Chriſt of his honour and Kingly dignity when they pretend they ſet him upon his Throne, which is an unſufferable blaſphemy in them.

And now I come to prove againſt I. S. that I undertook in the ſecond place to make good: viz. that by their doctrine they not only rob Chriſt of his honour, but all Chriſts bleſſed Apoſtles, Miniſters and Servants of their power, and leave them nothing but the name and ſhadow of authority▪ which is a horrid injuſtice and wickedneſſe in the Sectaries and Independents to do; which although I have briefly proved before, yet I ſhall here again for the more full elucidation of the truth and for the better ſetting forth of the Illdependent wickedneſſe a little further expatiate in this buſineſs and anſwer to all that I. S. hath materially or with any colour to ſpeak in behalfe of his cauſe, where I preſume he hath ſpake as much as he and his complices thought and conceived made for it and for which their vain and impious jangling they muſt one day give a dreadfull account.

I undertake therefore now to prove that by this their doctrine, they not onelyonly rob Chriſt the King of his Church of his honour and dignity, which I made good before, but all the holy Apoſtles and Presbyters his Miniſters and Servants alſo of their honour, power and dignity, which the King of his Church the Lord Jeſus had inveſted them with and beſtowed upon them, all which will clearly appear if we ſhall again briefly conſider and but take notice, Firſt what power and authority God gave unto his Apoſtles and to his Miniſters, which was the power of the Keyes Matth. 16. and Matth. 18. that is all power in his Church under him Matth. 28. and Mark 16. I ſay if we ſhall duly in the firſt place but conſider that all the Apoſtles Chriſts speciall Miniſters and Servants were by Chriſt himſelf inveſted with all authority and guided in their preaching p. 451and writing by his holy spirit, ſo that whatſoever they taught or writ as his Miniſters, were the dictates of his ſpirit, and the commandments of God, and were for ever to be the rule of his Church to all ſucceeding ages to the end of the World; and if we conſider alſo what he promiſed to his bleſſed Apoſtles and all his Servants and Miniſters that ſhould ſucceed them: viz. that he would be with them to the end of the World; to all which Miniſters likewiſe he had given the keys and made them ſtewards and overſeers of his houſe which is his Church; I ſay if we but duly weigh all theſe things we ſhall finde them all inveſted with plenary authority, and by the very commiſſion of God for ever inabled to exerciſe all acts of Government in the Church, and that by themſelves without the aſſiſtance and concurrence of the people who were never joyned with them in commiſſion, but received commands from heaven to obey thoſe that God had made guides over them and made Rulers in his Church; I ſay if we maturely conſider all theſe immunities and priviledges and the power that the Apoſtles and Miniſters of Chriſt were indued with and that from Chriſt the King of his church: And on the other ſide ſhall but conſider what learned I. S. in the name of all the Independents his brethren declareth concerning not onelyonly all the ordinary Miniſters of the church, but what he delivereth concerning the bleſſed Apoſtles, we ſhall clearly perceive that herobbs them all of that honour, dignity and power which God hath given them, and inveſts the people with it, which is a double injuſtice▪ Firſt in taking from the Apoſtles and Miniſters that which was their due and which God had beſtowed upon them. And ſecondly, in giving unto the people, that which pertained not to them and to which they had no right nor could lay no claime and with which they were not to meddle.

But take notice of his Doctrine, what hee holds and beleeves concerning the ordinary Miniſters, page 12. In ordination (ſaith hee) election belongeth unto the brethren, Jmpoſition of hands is proper to the Officers, where there are Officers, as in a Church constituted and compleate, otherwiſe if the Church be not compleate, according to his learning the people may doe it. Thus I. S. ſpeaks there, and in the 11 page hee grants it is the Presbyters part to rule. But as ſoone as hee hath ſpake the word, as if hee repented of what he had ſaid, hee comes in with a but, ſaying, but wee diſtinguiſh betweene Authority and Iuriſdiction on the one p. 452hand, and Power and Jntereſt on the other: this latter belongs unto the people; the other is proper unto the Officers, which yet they exerciſe in the name of the Church. The Officers (ſaith hee) ordaine, they excommunicate, they leade and direct in all government and diſputes, they have the executive power, but the people have a power and intereſt too, that is, in his dialect as hee declared himſelfe in the words going before, the Officers muſt exerciſe all their authority and juriſdiction in the name of the Church, and muſt doe as the people ſhall direct them, for their power is onelyonly the executive power, they are onelyonly the executioners of the church, they can neither elect any officers, nor excommunicate any without they have the leave and good liking from the people; for the radicall and originall power lyes in the people and church, which if it be not utterly to overthrow the authority of the Miniſters, and to make them nothing but cyphers in the Church, and moſt ſacrilegiouſly to rob them of that power Chriſt the King of his Church hath given them, and to arrogate it, and aſſume it unto themſelves, and whether this be not the greateſt wickedneſſe and injuſtice in the Independents that can be committed againſt men, I leave it to the conſideration and judgement of all conſcientious and learned men: and whether ſuch temerarious and bold impudent theives and Church-robbers ought not with greateſt ſeverity and juſtice to be proceeded againſt for this their malefice and unſufferable wickedneſſe, who doe not onelyonly take from the Miniſters of Ieſus Chriſt, whom they ought ever to have in great reverence for their workes ſake, 1 Theſſ. 5. that honour, power and authority Chriſt hath given them, but labour likewiſe now with all their might to take from them alſo that that God hath put into the hearts of men his ſervants to give them, viz. their tythes and lively-hood, and all that by which they ſhould ſupport themſelves and their poore Families, which is as intolerable an in juſtice and ingratitude, both towards God and men, as can by mortall creatures bee committed, which wickedneſſe of the Independents and Sectaries, if the Magiſtrates ſhall ſuffer to goe unpuniſhed, I moſt confidently beleeve, that the Lord and King of his Church, the Lord of heaven and earth will take the quarrell of his righteousſervants into his hand, and will poure downe his plagues, both on them and all their complices and abettors.

And now I have made it evident, how they rob all the ordinary p. 453Miniſters and Presbyters of the Goſpel of their due honour and power, I will make it likewiſe appeare that the Apoſtles alſo are by their doctrine in the ſame predicament, and that they deale no better with them whom they have robbed alſo and ſpoyled of their honour, power and authority, and count of them all no otherwiſe then of ordinary and common Miniſters, and but as of a company of Executioners: for wee muſt take what I. S. ſpeakes in this buſines, to be uttered in the name of all the Independents; for hee is but their mouth, and his booke came forth by the authority and approbation of them all, and was eſteemed of as a goodly peece, and he highly honoured amongſt them for it. His words are theſe, page 12. The Apoſtles and Elders (ſaith he) as a Committee, firſt prepared the diſpute, as not counting it ſo ſafe perhaps to admit the weake to the ſame, whiles it was intricate, and then reported it, and had their aſſistance and concurrence; and the Letters of reſolution run in the name of the brethren (1) the Church as well as the Apostles and Elders: theſe are his words.

And for confirmation of this his opinion, that the Apoſtles and Elders were but a Committee, and onelyonly prepared the buſines and then reported it, and could not without the aſſiſtance and concurrence of the brethren have ratified the Decrees made in that Councell, hee in the ſame page produceth his reaſons for this his fond conceit, ſaying, that Paul and Barnabas were ſent unto the Church and brethren as well as to the Apostles and Elders, for they were received of the Church; withall (ſaith hee) the word foreign with one accord, verſe 25. imports a multitude met together; and this to bee the reſult of that multitude, elſe it were no great commendation of the reſolution that it was convened about and iſſued forth foreign, and in verſe 22. it is ſaid, that it pleaſed (not onelyonly the Apostles and Elders) but the whole church alſo: therefore the Church alſo came together to conſult: or the Apoſtles and Elders as a Committee, firſt prepared the diſpute, &c. Thus worſhipfull I. S. ſayes and un-ſayes, determines and concludes, and then goes from his reſolution againe, affirming that Paul and Barnabas were ſent unto the Church alſo, and that the multitude was with one accord together, or elſe it had beene no great commendation of the reſolution; and he aſſerteth that the whole Church came together to conſult; and yet in the ſame breath as if hee had forgot himſelfe, hee comes in with his perhaps p. 454as a man doubting and wavering in his opinion, and altogether in uncertainties, ſaying, that perhaps the Apoſtles did not count it ſafe to admit the weake to the diſpute while it was intricate, ſo that here all men may ſee that hee makes it ſuſpicious and doubtfull, whether the brethren, the multitude, the whole Church were preſent there or not, and that for a double reaſon, both in reſpect of the Apoſtles diſcretion and wiſedome, as alſo in regard of the weakneſſe of the Brethren, ſaying, that the Apoſtles and Elders were but as a Committee to prepare the diſpute, and after reported it for the churches aſſiſtance and concurrence, and ſo hee learnedly concludes and determines by all this his babble that they were all there, and they were not there; where can any man find this creature, and what man of underſtanding is hee that ſhall behold the levity, vanity, raſhneſſe and ignorance of this fellow, to ſay no more, that would not conclude that hee is a meere Catechumenos, and that one had need to inſtruct him inſtead of confuting him: for as much as it may ſeeme to any man unmeet that a man ſhould be polemically exerciſed before hee be poſitively principled; theſe are I. S. his wiſe expreſſions concerning mee in his 16. page, which whether or no they may not fitly be applyed to himſelfe, I leave to the judgement of the wiſe and learned, who whiles hee will bee a Teacher of the Law, according to that of Saint Paul, 1 Tim. chap. 1. verſe 7. underſtands not neither what he ſayes, nor whereof he affirmes. I am moſt aſſured there ſcarce ever in the world appeared upon the Theater of learning a more unlearned payr of wicked triflers then this I. S. and Hanſerdo Knollys. But it will not be amiſſe to conſider the reaſons of I. S. by which hee laboureth to prove that which hee himſelfe had firſt poſitively ſet downe to be a truth; to wit, that all the brethren, the multitude and the whole Church were together in the Synod; and yet he after doubteth whether they were preſent there or no, I ſay it will not be amiſſe to conſider the reaſons, by which hee affirmes theſe two things; the firſt, that all the whole Church were preſent in the Synod; the ſecond, that they all had their vote and concurrence, without which there had beene no great commendation of the reſolution of the Councell as hee prattles, and without which the Decrees of the ſame had not beene ratified; his firſt reaſon is this, becauſe (ſaith he) Paul and Barnabas were received of the Church, Ergo, they were ſent unto the Church as well as to the Apostles and Elders p. 455as if one ſhould thus conclude, the Embaſſadours of France and Swede were ſent unto the King and Parliament, and the Citie of London entertained them, Ergo, they were as well ſent unto the Citie of London as to the King and Parliament; againe, the Citie of London aſſented unto whatſoever the King and Parliament accorded unto to gratifie thoſe Embaſſadours after they had made them acquainted with what they had done, Ergo, all the Citie and the whole multitude of Citizens had not onelyonly their votes and concurrence in thoſe great buſineſſes, and were Iudges alſo in the Parliament, but they were altogether in the great Councell, and that the Parliament could have ratified nothing without them; would not all men that ſhould heare any man thus argue, gather that that man that ſhould make ſuch inferences from ſuch premiſes, and ſhould ſo conclude, that hee were craſed in his braine, or elſe a very Ninny, and void of all reaſon?

And yet this is the manner of I. S. and Hanſerdoes diſputing, and which is more to ſhew the vanity of this man, he underſtands by the brethren, the multitude, and the whole Church, agreeing and according with Hanſerdo in this ſottiſh opinion, who holds that by brethren, the multitude, and the whole Church, all the beleevers in Jeruſalem both men, women and children are to be underſtood, and that they all had their Votes in that counſell and ratified the Decrees, without the which they had not been valid, whereas it is moſt certain, as I ſhewed before in my Anſwer to Hanſerdo, that there was not only an impoſſibility that ſuch multitudes of beleevers as were in Ieruſalem ſhould all meet in any one place, but that by multitude there and the whole Church muſt neceſſarily be underſtood ſome choice and ſelect men ſuch as Iudas and Sylas were, who are called Prophets and Miniſters of the Goſpell, of which the Church of Ieruſalem was furniſhed with good ſtore, and of which that great councell onelyonly conſiſted, and who debated and argued con and pro about the buſineſſe in controverſie, which is manifeſt from the ſeventh verſe, where it is ſaid, when there had been much diſputing, Peter roſe up &c. and in the 12. verſe for farther confirmation of this truth, it is related that then all the multitude kept ſilence and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul &c. And that Iames after they had held their peace gave in his judgement, to which the whole multitude and Church aſſented: ſo that out of all theſe words it neceſſarily and undeniably p. 456followeth that by the brethren there, the multitude and the whole Church are to be vnderſtood, not the common people, men and women in the Church of Ieruſalem; For it is ſaid they were brethren and therefore all the ſiſters were excluded, who were not at any time permitted to vote in churches 1 Cor. 14. And therefore the whole multitude of beleevers were not there, for women were part of the multitude; neither were the weak brethren to be admitted to doubtfull Diſputations by a ſpeciall command from the Apoſtle Paul Rom. 14. v. 1. and this is accorded to by the wiſe I. S. that confident diſputant, who ſaith that the Apoſtles and Elders as a Committee firſt prepared the diſpute and after reported it, not counting it ſafe to admit the weak to the ſame, whiles it was intricate, ſo that from Saint Pauls Doctrine there were neither women nor weak brethen there, and from I. S. his own conceſſion, the weak were not admitted all the time of the diſpute: and therefore the whole multitude of beleevers that were in Ieruſalem were not in the Councell, by all which it is apparently evident, That by brethren, and church, and multitude there, the whole company of Beleevers in Ieruſalem cannot be underſtood, and therefore by Brethren, Multitude, and the whole Church, we are neceſſarily to underſtand the learned and godly Prophets, Miniſters and Members of that church chiefe and eminent ones ſuch as Judas and Sylas were, and with them are to be joyned the other Presbyters that came out of all the Churches of Iudea, with thoſe that came with Paul and Barnabas from Antioch, which being all confidered together, made up a great number and multitude, all the which are called the Church, v. 3. the Scripture there ſpeaking Synecdochically, and taking a part for the whole, I ſay, of all ſuch as theſe are did that Synod conſiſt, and not of all ſorts of believers w^ch were not members fit for a Synod and Councell, which was to be managed and ordered and conſiſt of ſuch men only as had received the Keys, and upon whom the government of the Church was laid, which was never committed to the people, much leſſe to women; & therfore I ſay in all theſe reſpects, by the Brethren and Multitude, and the whole Church, we are to underſtand it Synecdochically as before, for all thoſe that were in the councell which were but a part of the whole, for the eminent Miniſters and Prophets that were Commiſſioners there, and aſſiſtants to the Apoſtles and Eld…rs, he which yet is more eviden… from this reaſon, That they p. 457onelyonly could bee Iudges and Voters in that Synod, which had heard the whole debate and the full dispute on both ſides; for none can be Iudges in any cauſe to give righteous judgement, that have not fully heard the allegations and probations on both ſides, which I. S. acknowledgeth, the weak neither heard, nor could judge of, becauſe they were intricate; ergo, they could not be Iudges, nor give their voices there upon no terms: for they could not be Judges of things they had not fully & underſtandingly heard; now the weake neither heard, neither could they have underſtood if they had heard (both which I. S. accordeth to) and therefore by multitude and the whole Church the weak brethren cannot be meant, much leſſe the ſiſters: and if men would but with deliberation weigh and conſider of things as they ought to be pondered and conſidered of, very reaſon without the warrant of holy Scripture would perſwade every rational and wel grounded chriſtian that none could or can be Iudges in any cauſe but ſuch as have heard the pleading of the whole buſines, and controverſie from the beginning to the ending, which none but the apoſtles & presbyters, and the Commiſſioners, and ſuch as Sylas and Iudas and Barnabas were, did; for the Scripture ſaith verſe 6. that the Apoſtles and Elders came together for to conſider of this matter; and when there had beene much diſputing, &c. out of which words wee may gather, that none but they that managed the diſputation, and heard the whole debate, were or could be Iudges, which all the people neither did, nor poſſibly could doe; neither may we conceive of the Councell of Ieruſalem that they had any raw headed boyes, or giddy braind creatures, or Minors in it, or any ſuch as were ever running out and in; for wee may not imagine, that that great Councell was like a pigion houſe, where they are continually fluttering out, and fluttering in; for that Councell conſiſted of ſuch men onelyonly as were holy, grave and approved; all Prophets, ſuch as Sylas, Iudas and Barnabas were, ſuch as for gravity and experience, were thought fit companions to ſit with the Apoſtles and Elders in conſultation; ſo that it is apparently evident, that Councell conſiſted of none but venerable, pretious, godly and ſtaid men, of whom wee can not by the Law of charity thinke that they did the worke of the Lord in that Synod negligently, or to the halves, or that they did not all ſit cloſe, and diligently to the worke from the beginning of the Seſſion to the concluſion of the ſame, and therefore that as they met altogether at a ſet p. 458houre or time, ſo that they continued and kept together in conſultation and diſpute as long as any other ſate, and till they in their wiſedome by their joynt conſents and agreements thought fit to ſit to the full determination of the whole buſines, and till the Decrees were made, were it fewer or more dayes or weekes, and although it be not recorded how long the Councell continued, yet wee reade no where in the 15. chapter, but that they ſate altogether in judgement, the Apostles and Elders, and Commiſſioners, till they had heard the whole debate and di…pute, and none but they: This truth may be gathered, not only from the holy Scripture, and from that I have formerly ſpake, but from I. S. his owne words above ſpecified, viz, that there were neither weake brethren, nor the ſiſters; and therefore it is a great wickedneſſe in I. S. from ſuch uncertainties as hee goes upon, to raiſe and make ſuch concluſions as he doth, which tend to no other end, but for the taking away all the authority and power from the Apoſtles themſelves, which God notwithſtanding had inveſted them with, and to put it into the hands of the people, which they had nothing to doe with; for as his words declare, hee accounteth the Apoſtles and Elders but a Committee onelyonly, to prepare the diſpute, and then to report it, that they might have the aſſiſtance and concurrence of the people, without the which (as hee affirmeth) there were no great commendation of the reſolution, that is to ſay, if the people had not aſſented unto the Decrees, they had beene of no effect, which if it be not wholly to deveſt the Apoſtles of all power and authority, and lay it and place it upon the people, I leave it to the judgement of the learned, then the which there cannot be a greater ſacriledge, and injuſtice perpetrated againſt Miniſters and ſervants of God in the world by any; and as this dealing and proceeding of I. S. is moſt injurious to the Apoſtles, ſo this his doctrine is contrary to all divine and humane learning; yea, contrary to the very opinion of the learnedſt of the Independents: for this I. S. his judgement is, that the Apoſtles and Presbyters without the concurrence of the people and Church, could not have made the Decrees valid and binding, whereas all the Independents (beſides himſelfe) joyning with the Papiſts againſt the Proteſtants, affirme, that the Apoſtles onelyonly in that Synod and Councell, by their infallible authority ratified thoſe Decrees; and ſo they exclude all the Presbyters, ſaying, that the Apostles acted not as Presbyters in that Councell, but as Apoſtles p. 459ſtles with a tranſcendent power, and were onelyonly the men who were led and guided in that Seſſion by the Holy Ghoſt, and by a ſpirit of infallibility (which ſay they) the Presbyters were not indued with; and therefore their preſence onelyonly as Apoſtles made their Decrees binding, which opinion of the Independents howſoever it is very erroneous, as I have often ſhewed in the foregoing Diſcourſe; yet it is point blanke againſt the Doctrine of I. S. who places all the power in the people, robbing both the Apoſtles and Presbyters of their authority; and on the other ſide his brethren, they place all authority upon the Apoſtles, and deprive the Preſbyters of it, and count them but ordinary men, and not infallibly there aſſiſted by the Holy Ghoſt; both which opinions as they are contrary unto the word of God, ſo they ſufficiently prove that theſe men are but Babel Builders, whoſe tongues and language are divided, and tend to confuſion; for they are diametrically fighting one againſt ano ther; ſo that all the world may ſee that thoſe men that begin once to fight againſt the truth, like the Midianit…s they deſtroy one an other.

But this has generally beene obſerved, that ſuch men as theſe are, that ſtudy to invent Engines to beate downe the truth, yet all the vapours of their braine cannot ſo much as cloud ſo bright … Sunne, but it will evermore gloriouſly ſhine forth to the dazeling of the eyes of all the enemies of the ſame: So that it is a wonder of wonders to mee to ſee the people generally ſo hardned by obſtinacy, that they cannot yet diſcerne into the craft and juggling of the Ill-defendents predicants, who whiles they give the people or Church power and intereſt, to humour them (it is not ſo much out of love to them, as hatred to the Presbyterians) to build up their Diana Temple of Independency, hoping by rayſing it to ruine the truth it ſelfe, and to overthrow the whole Fabricke of Presbyterian government, which Chriſt the King of his Church hath appointed, and in fine by this meanes to bring in a confuſion of all things, and a m…re Anarchy in Church and State.

But howſoever the Ill-defendents ſeeke to put out the light of the truth by this their ſnuffing at it, they make it burne the brighter, as I. S. and Hanſerdo Knollys have done by their ſnuffing at it.

And this ſhall ſuffice by way of Anſwer to have replyed to what both theſe Gentlemen Maſter Hanſerdo and I. S. had to ſay to my third Propoſition▪

p. 460I come now to my fourth, which I will firſt ſet down with their Anſwers to it, and then make my reply as I have done to all their former cavills; and I will go on in the ſame order, firſt anſwering to Hanſerdo and then to I. S.

My fourth Propoſition is this, viz. That the Church of Jeruſalem and the government of the ſame, is to be a pattern for all Congregations and Aſſemblies in any City or Vicinity, to unite into one Church; and for the Officers and Preſbyters of thoſe congregations to govern that Church joyntly, in a Colledge or Preſbytery.

And for the proofe of this there needs no great diſpute; for all men acknowledge that the mother Church muſt give an example of government to all the daughter Churches; now then when it doth evidently appear, that this mother Church of Jeruſalem, in her moſt flouriſhing condition, and by her firſt conſtitution, was conſiſting of many Congregations and ſeverall Aſſemblies, and that they were all governed by a Presbytery, or a joynt and common Councell of Presbyters: then it followeth, that all other Churches ſhould be governed after the ſame manner as the mother Church was, to the end of the World; neither doe the brethren deny, but the government of the church of Jeruſalem, muſt be the patterne of government to all churches; and therefore out of that miſpriſion and miſtake, that ſhe was conſiſting of but as many as could meet in one congregation, they take the church of Ieruſalem, for imitation, and teach all their ſeverall congregations to do the ſame, and to exerciſe the ſame power among themſelves Independent, and to govern with as abſolute an authority in their ſeverall Congregations, as the whole Colledge of the Apoſtles and Presbyters did in the church of Ieruſalem, and from the which they allow of no appeale, as all that know their tenents can witneſſe: So that this laſt Propoſition being ſtrengthned both by reaſon and the conſent of the brethren, needs no further proof.

Now to this my fourth Propoſition and the Arguments contained in the ſame, Maſter Knollys thus replyeth Page 14. Neither do the Brethren deny, but the Government of the Church of Ieruſalem muſt be the pattern of Government to all Churches. But the Doctor knows, that the brethren deny that the Church of Ieruſalem conſiſted of divers Congregations and ſeverall Aſſemblies under a common Councell, Conſiſtory, Colledge, or Court of Preſbyters. p. 461And this they have not granted, neither hath the Doctor proved. And this may be ſufficient to be ſaid in Anſwer to the four Propoſitions touching the firſt Question.

This is all Mr Knollys hath to ſay by way of Anſwer to this my laſt Propoſition; in the which Anſwer of his, I deſire the Reader to obſerve what he in the name of all the brethren granteth and aſſenteth unto, and what both he and they all deny (at leaſt as he ſaith); for he perſonateth them all. He grants in behalfe of them all, that the Church of Ieruſalem muſt be the pattern of Government to all churches: And this is as much as I deſire.

But by the way take notice that Maſter Hanſerdo reckons before his hoſt; for I. S. is one of the brethren, and yet he Page 13. aſſerteth that the example of that Church is not bindingly preſidentiall. Now what he and all the brethren deny, if Mr Knollys be worthy of credit, are theſe two things, viz. The firſt, That the Church of Ieruſalem conſiſted of divers congregations. Secondly, they deny that the Doctor hath proved it.

That all the brethren deny (as Mr Knollys ſaith) that the church of Ieruſalem conſiſted of many congregations, is not altogether to be believed: For my brother Burton, none of tne meaneſt of the Brethren, doth not deny it: yea he not onelyonly grants it, but by arguments proves that there were many Aſſemblies of Believers in the church of Ieruſalem: and therefore Mr Hanſerdo in this alſo his aſſertion reckons before his hoſt.

But whereas in the ſecond place he ſaith that the brethren deny that I have proved there were many congregations of Believers in Ieruſalem, he being better acquainted with their denyalls then I am, may ſpeak according to his information, and ſo is not ſo blame worthy as in the former of his concluſions; but if it were any thing materiall, or to the purpoſe, I could name ſome of the Brethren of the congregationall way, that told me diſcourſing with them, that by reading of my book they were convinced that there were many Aſſemblies of beleevers in Ieruſalem: and therefore to my knowledge all the Brethren do not deny that I have proved it: But whether or no I have not abundantly evinced there were many Aſſemblies of Beleevers in Ieruſalem, and that not onelyonly out of the holy Scripture, but from my brother Burtons and Hanſerdoes own words, I leave it to the judgement of all ſuch men as have any underſtanding and without prejudice ſhall read the foregoing diſcourſe p. 462courſe, whither I ſend them, intreating them likewiſe with diligence to peruſe it: and then I doubt not, but whatſoever they have beleeved concerning that buſineſſe, or whatſoever they have formerly denyed, they will be convinced that I have ſufficiently proved both from Scripture and from my brother Burton and Saint Hanſerdoes own conceſſions that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church at Ieruſalem, and withall I am moſt aſſured they will alſo for time to come take heed how they beleeve Mr Knollys and thoſe of his fraternity upon their bare words without other ſufficient and approved witneſſes.

And this ſhall ſuffice for Anſwer to Maſter Knollys.

Now I deſire the Reader to hear what learned I. S. hath to ſay; He in the 13. Page anſwers thus:

Firſt, ſaith he, They are not (meaning the Congregations and ſeverall Aſſemblies) an example of uniting or aggregation, except it be found that there were many Churches aggregated, which a very facile and ſwaſible Reader may well doubt of, for any thing that hath yet been ſaid to make it good.

For Anſwer to I. S. I ſay that he that is but a very facile and ſwaſible reader, that will vouchſafe to peruſe and conſider but what I have wr…t in way of Anſwer both to himſelfe, Hanſerdo Knollys and my learned brother Burton, will never doubt but that I have ſufficiently made it good that there were many Aſſemblies and Churches aggregated in Ieruſalem: and therefore I ſhall ſend all ſuch as are ſtudious to finde out the truth, and to ſhun error and to decline all trivall and fond ſeducers, to what I have written in the foregoing Treatiſe.

And this ſhall ſerve for Anſwer to his firſt Reply.

Secondly, ſaith he, If this were granted that many Churches did aggregate and unite in the beginning, yet would not this example be bindingly Preſidentiall, &c.

Here I ſhall deſire the Reader to take notice of the vanity of this Novice, and worthleſſe man who is ſo farr from all learning and knowledge, as he is not acquainted with the very principles of any ſound reaſon or with the Independents doctrine; for he hath the whole Army of the Independents againſt him in this point as well as the Presbyterians, who all acknowledge that the church of Ieruſalem is for its Government to be the patterne of Government to all churches to the end of the World; and that hath been all the p. 463controverſie between the Presbyterians and the Illdependents, whether that Church conſiſted of many Congregations and Aſſemblies, which if it could be proved they profeſt that then the cauſe was loſt and the day was the Presbyterians; for they all acknowledge that the Church of Ieruſalem muſt be a pattern of all Churches; and this Maſter Knollys in the name of all the brethren aſſented unto in the foregoing words, ſo that theſe brethren are not ſo well acquainted with one anothers minde and principles as they perſwade others they are.

Now profound I. S. denyeth that were it ſo that the Church of Ieruſalem conſiſted of many Aſſemblies, yet for all this that it could not be bindingly Preſidentiall, theſe are his words by the which he beats up all the Independents Quarters, to uſe his own rhetorick, and utterly overthroweth that cauſe he as a Champion came out to maintain. Neither hath he onelyonly beat up the Independents Quarters, but indeed all the Apoſtles Quarters: For that Government they eſtabliſhed in Ieruſalem and in all the other Primitive Churches, was left for a patterne of imitation to all Churches in all ſucceeding Ages, as not onelyonly the Independents but all orthodox Divines doe accord, yea the Scripture it ſelfe hath commanded it, Iſaih 2. ſaying, out of Zion ſhall come the Law, and the word of the Lord from Ieruſalem: Ieruſalem therefore muſt be a paterne, both for doctrine and government, and this al the Independents themſelves acknowledge, and the Scripture in many places ſaith, whatſoever was written was written for our inſtruction; therefore the government of all the Primitive Churches, eſpecially that of Ieruſalem, and the example of all the Apoſtles, are left for our imitation, Phil. 3. Now when the Apoſtles conſtituted all churches after one way, and aggregated many Churches or Congregations all under one Presbyterie, in each of them ſeverally, as in that at Ieruſalem, that Church principally, and all the reſt are left for a paterne of imitation of Church government to the end of the world, and this is confirmed by the Holy word of God, and aſſented unto by all the Learned, from all which when J. S. moſt raſhly and wickedly diſſenteth, I leave him to the cenſure of the ſeven new Churches, who I hope will whip him out of their Aſſemblies, with his fooliſh Flagello flagelli, for thus ſottiſhly beating up of all their quarters, and renouncing all the Independents Principles, p. 464whiles hee laboured to maintaine them; and this ſhall ſuffice for anſwer to I. S. his grolleries to the former Propoſitions concerning the firſt Queſtion.

Now before I come to my ſecond queſtion, concerning the gathering of Churches, I will ſay thus much by way of Preface concerning Hanſerdo, I. S. and my brother Burton, that as they are very confuſed in their replyes, jumbling things together, that are heterogenious, leaping backward and forwards, picking and chooſing, ſnatching and carping, yea, and trifling about words, as the cuſtome of all the Ill▪defendents is, ſo they deale not fairly with mee, nor ingenuouſly, nor Saint-like with the people, whom they deſire to delude, and therefore they paſſe over the moſt materiall Arguments, never ſo much as making mention of them, and ſlighting all as not worthy the anſwering to, and by ſuch arts as theſe are, they moſt prodigiouſly abuſe the well minded people, and by theſe their unchriſtian, unbrotherly, and wicked dealings, they every day broach their errors with more facility, and abuſe all their ignorant and credulous followers, to the utter deſtroying of many of their poore ſoules, ſome of the which as I am able to prove, were men eſteemed of to be godly, as walking unblameably, being alſo diligent hearers of the word before they knew them, yet after their acquaintance with them, being firſt by their meanes ſeduced from our Churches, after ſome time they fell from their congregations alſo, into wicked and deſperate opinions, and in a ſhort time after, became ſo prophane and beaſtly; yea, ſo atheiſticall, as it would exceed ordinary beliefe to relate, and truly if I had not very good witneſſe to prove what I ſay, beſides my owne knowledge and experience, I would not have mentioned it; but becauſe if occaſion ſerves I ſhall be able to produce many Preſidents of fearefull Apoſtaſies, even amongſt thoſe that were their Schollers, and the Diſciples of the Independent way, I am the willinger to ſpeake of it, that I might arme all men with ſome caution in reading their Pamphlets, which they write againſt the Presbyterians; for they never deale candidly, neither with them, nor with their own brethren: for firſt they either wholly diſſwade them from reading our bookes, or elſe by their emiſſaries, and rayling Libels they moſt ſhamefully vilifie and belye them ſo, that they come prejudicated to them, and then they ſend their owne putrid and corrupt ſcriblings amongſt thoſe p. 465of their Fraternity, whom they miſerably cozen and abuſe with their fraudulent jugglings, and that againſt all the Lawes of piety and common honeſty, to the diſturbance, both of Church and State. This I thought fit (I ſay) to ſpeake before I come to my ſecond queſtion and ſeverall Queries ariſing from it, concerning the gathering of Churches, and their anſwers unto them, wherein they rather trifle then diſpute, as will by and by appeare; I ſhall therefore in my replying unto them, firſt ſet downe the queſtion fully with all my queries, and then anſwer to all the materials of their fond cavils and evaſions, with their ſilly reſponſals to them, and after I have done that, I will ſet downe Gods method, and the Apoſtles practiſe in the gathering of Churches, with the manner of their admitting of Members, and then reply to whatſoever they have to ſay againſt my Arguments and Reaſons deduced from holy Scripture; and for further confirmation of the truth, I will adde many more Preſidents, and them undeniable ones of the Apoſtles receiving of Members, and that into Churches formed after the New-Teſtament forme, according to their owne deſcription; beſides, thoſe that were received into the Catholike viſible Church, and all without any of thoſe conditions they now require of their Members, and I ſhall by Gods aſſiſtance evidently make it appeare, that God by his holy Apoſtles and Miniſters uſes but one way of admitting of members into the church, whether it be the catholike viſible church, or any particular presbyterian church, whether they be admitted in an ordinary or an extraordinary way, I ſay by thegrace of God I ſhal clearly elucidate this truth, that God uſeth one and the ſame method in gathering his people out of all nations into Church fellowſhip, and the communion of the Saints, which ought to all Miniſters to be a rule to walke by in the receiving in of Members into their Congregations.

Having thus ſet downe what order I will proceed in, I come now to the ſecond queſtion betweene us and the Brethren, which is, concerning the manner of gathering of Churches and admitting of Members and Officers, viz. Whether Miniſters of the Goſpel may out of already congregated Aſſemblies of `Beleevers, ſelect and chooſe the moſt principall of them, into a Church-fellowſhip peculiar unto themſelves, and admit of none into their ſociety, but ſuch as ſhall enter in by a private covenant, and are allowed of by the conſent and approbation of all p. 466the Congregation. And this queſtion brancheth it ſelfe into theſe ſeverall Queries: The firſt, whether for the gathering of Churches there bee either Precept or Preſident in the Holy Word of God, that the Preachers and Miniſters of the Gospel did ever leave their owne ordinary charges, to which they are called, and whereto they are fixed, with a command not to leave them, and under pretence of a new way, or a new borne truth, or a new light, did runne about and alienate the minds of the people, well affected formerly to their ſeverall Miniſters, as of duty they were bound, as who had converted them to Chriſt by their Miniſtery, and fed them ſtill with the ſincere milke of the Word, and built them up in their moſt holy Faith: I ſay, the firſt Quere is, whether there be precept or example in the Word of God of any true Ministers ſo doing? and whether it was ever heard of in the Apoſtles and Primitive times, that any beleeving Chriſtians were in great numbers congregated from among other beleeving Chriſtians, and moulded into ſeverall Congregations and Aſſemblies, as ſeparate and diſtinct bodies and Churches from them, and who had no Church-fellowſhip with the other Congregations, nor communicated with them in the Ordinances, but were independent from them, and abſolute among themſelves? and whether this way of gathering of Churches was ever heard of before theſe dayes? and whether this be to ſet Chriſt upon his Throne, to make diviſions and ſchiſmes in Churches, and among Beleevers and brethren, and that upon groundleſſe pretences.

The ſecond Quere is, whether for the making of any man or woman a Member of the Church, it be requiſite or neceſſary, to the beleeving and being baptized, that they ſhould walke ſome dayes, weeks, moneths, perhaps yeares with them, that they may have experience of their converſation before they can be admitted, and after that, a confeſſion of their faith ſhould be publikely made before the Congregation, and the evidences of their converſion, as, the time when, the place where, the occaſion how they were converted, ſhould likewiſe openly be produced for ſatisfaction to the Church before they can be admitted to be Members, and if any, either men or women ſhall except againſt their evidence, that then they are not to be admitted; this is the ſecond Quere.

The third is, whether for making any man or woman a Member, or an Officer of a Church, the conſent of the whole Congregation p. 467or the greater part of them beſides the Presbyters and Miniſters be requiſite?