Counterpoison Considerations, Treatise 2 · Section 3
THE MINISTERS POSITIONS SHAKEN.
THere is added to Mr Bernards book, an other work intituled; CERTAIN POSITIONS held and maynteined by some godly ministers of the gospel, against those of the separation, and namely against Barrow & Greenwood. The groundwork whereof is thus layd;
That the Church of England is a true Church of Christ and such a one as from which whosoeuer wittingly and continually separateth himselfe, cutteth himselfe …ff from Christ
I will not stand vponupon the consequences that may be made of this position, whereby all that abhorr…ng the abominations in that church, and so separating from it, are quite cut off from Christ, whatsoeuer truth they profe…e and walke in, or whats…euer other church they ioyne vntounto: but I will insist in a brie… answer to that which these Ministers bring to proue this their peremtory sentence, and they be 4. reasons.
1, For that they enioy and ioyne togither in the use of those outward meanes which God in his word hath ord…yned for the gathering of an inuisible Church: that is, preaching of the gospel, and administration of the sacraments.
2. For that their whole church maketh profession of the true faith.
3. For that th…y hold and teach &c. all truthes fundamental.
4. For that all known churches in the world acknowledge that church for the…r sister, and giuegive vntounto her the right hand of fellowship.
These things hauehave been before handled in this treatise, and the weakne…e of them discouered: yet because it may be thought new men will make new arguments, and many heads together bring forth deep counsels, let us weigh what these godly ministers hauehave here sayd.
For proof of the first poynt,1 Reason, they doe allege that the meanes which they vse and enioy hauehave been effectuall to the vnfained conuersion of many: as may appear both by the other fruites of faith that may be found amongst them, and by the martyrdome which sundry hauehave endu…ed &c: yea euen we our selues are able to witnes with them, that if there be any true faith and sanctification in us, it was begun and bred in th…ir assemblies,
Secondly, that if Mat. …8.18.20 Eph. 4, 11.12.14 be well examined, it wil…e found that the meanes which Christ ordeyned for the gathering of an inuisible church are the very same which they enioy euen the preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments.
I answer; All this that they say will not proue their, Position,Answ. namely that the church of England which consisteth of the whole nation, diuided in to many dioceses and parishes, vnderunder one or two Archbishops &c. is a true church of Christ. For the Papists boast of all these things, as colourable and as truely as these ministers Their priests hauehave conuerted many from Pagenisme, Iudaisme, and profanenes of life; their church hath had many martyrs; Luther and others that first left them, had their faith begun in their assemblies; &c. and whatsoeuer Ministery is in England, from the Archprelate to the halfe priest, the Papists, hauehave amongst them yea Engl. had it from them. And it is to be admired that these godly ministers can allege nothing for their church, but such old popish stales.
How vainely they assume these things vntounto themselues, hath been shewed befo…e: aSee before p. 37.42.43.fruits of faith appear no… in their confuse assemblies wh…re God is publ…ckly dishonoured by false worship; his enemies (profane & wicked people) fostered and ble…sed with his most holy things, and Antichristian prelates, and Canons obeyed:
Were it as they say, that many hauehave been conuerted, is that …enough to make all the church? We hauehave testimonies from their bSee before p. 2.107.own mouthes that there be swarmes and thowsands of profane, irreligeous, atheists, blasphemers and open wicked liuers Mr Gifford a champion of their own hath confessed and printed it that cCoūtry divinity: in th… Epis… de dic.through want and absence of … sincere ministery, there is a flood of ignorance and darknesse ouerflowing the most part of the land: the fear of God is banished from the greatest part: the wonderfull heaps and piles of sinne, which should be washed and clensed away by the word, doe undoubtedly with one voyce cry alowd in the eares of the Lord for ve… geance vponupon the whole realm &c Shal now a few supposed conuerts, mak… all this rowt a Christian church? It is impiety, and an ouerthrow of the Gospell. Gen. 3.15. 2 Cor. 6.14, 18, Mat, 15.13. Reu. 21..2:3.27. and 28.15.
What meane these Ministers to boast so much of their martyrs whose blood cries against them, in the eares of the Lord of hosts. For did not their church kill them? Let one of themselues speake in this case, least we be thought partiall. dIos, Nich. Plea. of the innocent. p. 236.Who knoweth not (sayth Mr Nichols,) how much blood of Gods Saincts. was spilt in former ages, and how many howses were guilty of blood? And when did this land serio…sly and sincerely humble it selfe. & by …pen repentance make reconciliation for the same? Nay rather how many thowsands repined at the happy reign of her maiesty, for the casting out of the idolatrous and superstitious worship of God, and for the establishing of his holy nam… and the liberty in preaching of the G…spell? This testimony is known to b… true; the greater is their sinne that now plead for such a people to be a true Church of God. Shall the Cainites be honoured for Abels martyrdom; or the Iewes for crucifying Christ? then also may the bloody gen… tion of Papists be canonized for Saincts, and made members without r… pentance) of a christian church. And for these ministers, let them heart and make vse of Christs words to their predecessors. eLuk. 11.47.48.Woe unto you, for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them Truly y… bear witnes and allow the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and y… build their sepulchres. fMat. 23.3…,Fulfil ye also the measure of your Fathers.
It is a slight and simple kinde of reasoning, to tel us if those scripture… Mat. 28. Eph. 4. be well examined; it will be found that the meanes which Christ ordeyned for the gathering of an inuisible church, ar the uery same which they inioy. First, what doting Friar will not say this much, for his popish Synagogue? Then, why doe not these ministers bring the meanes they boast of to the examination by these scriptures: is it yenough (think they to the examination by these scriptures: is it yenough (thinke they) to cite a text or two, and then ran away; The scriptures they allege hauehave been aPag, 13 & 102, 103.before examined and the ministers of Engl. being put into the other ballance, are found all too leight. But if it were true that they had the mean… ; yet their argument is false if they conclude of the effect. Israel had farr better meanes; then England I am sure: for the Prophets, and Apostles and Christ himselfe preached among them Yet loe he complayneth bIsa. 49, 4.that he had laboured in vayne; for Ierusalem cMat. 23.37.killed the Prophets, and stoned those that were sent vntounto them, and the Lord by his Apostles dRom, 10.31.stretched forth his hand to a disobedient and gainsaying people. And shall we thinke that the Pr…ests of Engl. hauehave such power and grace tied to their lips, that because they hauehave …reached, therefore the whole nation is a true church? Or dot… there such vertue proceed from these ministers, as can make the multitu…e of swaggering professors, atheists, blasphemers, and all sorts of profane which swarme in the land, to be turned Christians. worthy to be washed and fed with the body and blood of, Christ. and yet continue atheists and profane as before? what wondrous effect shall we next hear of, but that their preaching hath conuerted the Diuils also.
But let us hear what testimony M. Gifford hath left beh…nde him, of the gra… & learned pr…achers of the church of Engl: among whom himselfe was one,) and of the people in their parishes, The Diull (eCoūtry diuinity fol. 48. sayth he) is content those preachers should ride vponupon his back because he is sure they will not spurg all him: they be very gentle riders. Doe ye not thinke, that if they should set forth Gods word as they ought, and spread the light: that all wicked, (of which their parish is full,) would storme and fret against them? the Diuill himselfe would fi…k about, if they should spur him but a little. But they can tell a smooth tale in the pulpit garnished with some merry story, for to make the people merry or els some old rotten allegory; or some far fetched matter out of some great writers, that their people may be at their wits end and eadmire,admit them. A man would thinke to see the people come out of the church blowing, that they were fed as ful as tikes: when they goe home with emty bellies. This I dare warrant, if it be not so let me loose both mine eares, that g…e through the parishes of these gra…e and learned Diuines and except such as run to fetch their victuals otherwhere, ye shall not finde fi…e among fiue skore, which are able to vnderstand the necessary grounds and principles of religion: and yet the People will say, they be excellent deep men. But I louelove not those welles which are so deep, that a man can draw no water out of them. Loe here the means which the, parishes of England doe enioy, and worthy effects that follow. If Mr Barrow. or any of vsus, should I hauehave written this, it would hauehave been counted s…ffing, r…yling, & blasphemy: but now that Mr Gifford, (so worthy a patron of the church) hath thus recorded, I hope the witnes wilbe thought irrefragable And now let these godly ministers examine Mat 28. & Eph. 4 and see if there they can finde these meanes which they enioy, iustified.
But they proceed and tel vsus in their second reason that fpag. 116.their whole church maketh profession of the true faith. 2. Reason.For the Confessiō of their church tegither togither with the Apologie thereof, and those articles of religion agreed vponupon in the Conuocation howse, anno 1562, doe proue this euidently. But herein they would deceiue the simple euidently: for first profession of the true sayth, when men in practise doe deny it, maketh them not a true church, but they are as the Apostle sayth, aTit. 1.16·abominable.
Then for profession it selfe, if it be by constreynt, for fear of punishment, by m…n that otherweise are profan…, lewd, and dissolute and enemies to the gospell this is no true profession, such as will make men a true church, for they ought to receiue and professe the truth willingly and gladly Psal, 110.3. Act. 2 41. Now we know that with them, men were and are forced to the profession they make, and if it were at their own choise, many thowsands would professe otherwise. Their own acts and Monuments, (besides manifest experience) doe witnes this. For Mr Fox reporteth, that when K. Edward had established this church and religion many people bAct & monu. edi. 5. pag 11…7, 1190in Cornwal. Deuenshire and other places, not onelyonly misliked it, but openly rebelled for their old idolatrie. The Preists, though some allowed, yet others cibidem pa 1184.dissembled, and many carelessly con…emned all, and still excercised their old mon…ed Popery. The Iustices &c were not onelyonly dpag 1185slack in furthering of religion, but hindred so much as lay in them the Kings proceedings &c. So that ciuill force, not Christian zelo made men Protestants in that Kings dayes: wherefore at his death, hauing gotten Q. Mary, they so… vp agayn their Romish superstition, and persecuted the other vntounto the death. Til Q. Elisah came, and inforced them the second tyme to put away the…r Latin Masse and images, and receiue that English seruice and ceremonies, wh…ch since hauehave preuayled to this day, Wh…ch how willingly the people ye…lded vntounto, Mr Nichols testimony (to omit all others) before alleged, sheweth.
And How wel this religion is liked of now after so many yeres▪ let the multitude of church papists in England shew: together with the whole row… of rebels in Ireland, all which are of the communion of the church of Engl, hauing the same Bishops, Priests, service & … the English and Irish that dwel in the country, being ioyned togither in one body and brotherhood: Then adde to these papists, the profane time-seruers, such as M. Gifford deseribeth thus, Coūtry diuinity. fol. 2…I know there be many which care not for the Pope, but yet beleeue much of his doctrine: they be those which we call Atheists of no religion: but look whatsoeuer any prince doth set forth that they will profess and add vntounto them those other firarmes in the church of England that Mr Chaderton complayneth of; eronius and hereticall sectaries, witches, charmers sorcerers, murtherers, theeues, adulterers, liars, &c and all these togither being compelled by law into one church and brotherhood, can any man doubt now of that which these ministers,fSerm. on Rom. 12. p. 65.66. say, that their whole church maketh profession of the true faith?
The Confession, Apologie. and Conuocation-howse articles, are strange proofs of the peoples profession. If a few men in their Studies or Consistories, write books or articles of religion. and send them a broad; must all people that see or hear them, wil they nil they, needs be counted professors of that religion? yea such also as neuer heard of them in their liues nor cānot tel what they meāe? Surly these ministers ar eyther very ignorant, or carelesse what they say, when they call this an euident proof. The churches in France and Belgia hauehave published Confessions and Articles also, better then those in England: yet are there thowsands and ten thowsands dwelling among them, that neyther so professe, nor are members of their churches.
But if it were granted that the publicke writings, articles canons &c. are to be esteemed the faith & profession of all Engl. yet we deny them to make profession of the true faith; for their Seruice book, homilies. book of Ordination, with the impious canons confirming all the Romish idolatries, Antichristian clergie and ceremonies that are among them, excommunicating, aSee before p. 56.ipso facto, all that speake against them; this is no true Christian profession, whatsoeuer other truthes are mixed with them. For as the Papists holding many good grounds of religion in generall, yet by other additions and contradictions, do ouerthrow the truth: so is it in England, as before in this treatise, and in many others, hath been proued and after shall further appear.
Whereas these Ministers confidently deny that their church accounteth any one for her childe or member, that doth not professe the faith of Christ in some measure: it is nothing but a vayn flourish. For was there euer such grossnes in the deepest gulfe of Popery as to deney Christ utterly, and not to professe him in some measure? Nay it could not be the throne of Antichrist vnlesse he did professe Christ. It is wel known, none are baptised among the Papists, but they professe the very same faith that is now professed at the baptisme in Engl. namely that which they call th' Apostles Creed So then what hauehave these godly ministers sayd more then the simplest papist in the world could hauehave sayd for his church? Now in that they make this a colour, as if the profane and wicked were not accounted children of the church: they shew themselues to be bHos. 9.8the snare of a fowler in al their wayes: yet set they a snare so slight, that eueryevery man may breake it. For who knowes not that there be multitudes of profane and wicked persons in the land? Who knowes not that the whole land generally is baptised? Yea the baptisiing of the seed of the most wicked, is not onelyonly practised but befended in print, by their late Archbishop D. Whitg. who pleaded cAnswer to the admon. pag. 111.what if it be the child of a dronkard, or of an harl…t? what if the Parents be papists? what if they be heretiks? &c. shall not their children be baptised? Yes, he will hauehave it to be a common passage for all uile persons, Good and euil (sayth cDefense of the answer to the adm, pag. 621.he) clean and vnclean, holy and profane, must needs passe by it. And at baptisme their seruice book teacheth the priest to say of eueryevery one, we receiue this child into the congregation of Christs flock. Being thus receiued, not one of a thowsand wicked persons, are euer excommunicated: but are fostered in the church vntill their death; and then the priest is taught agayn to say that eSeruice a… burîall.it hath pleased God to take vntounto himselfe the sowle of their dear brother there departed, and so he committeth his body to the ground in sure and certayn hope of resurrection to eternal life. This being the generall state of the land, as all men know; what dissemblers are these Ministers to intimate. as if their church acknowledged not the open wicked for her children and members? Mr Gifford, when tyme was, yeilded farr otherweise. I confesse aDialog, betweē a Pap & a protes. fol 38.(sayth he) that our church, if ye vnderstand the whole assembly, is ful of al wicked vices. There are a number among vsus which are of your brood, speaking to a …apist,) wh…se euill life is seen wel yenough, there ar… a very great number of meer worldlings which doe not greatly esteem any religion although they seem now because of lawes, to allow and fauour our side. &c.
Now hauing sayd somewhat for themselues, such as it is, they cauil bpag. 167.at our description of a church, when we say, that it is a company of faithfull people that truely worship Christ and rea…ly obey him. This say these Ministers, is vtterly vntrue if it be understood of the visible church. This is strange. What would they hauehave vsus describe the Church to be a company of infidels; or a company of faithfull and of infidels togither: when Paul teacheth that there is no communion between such, 2 Cor 6.14.15 or should we say, a people that falsely worship Christ? Indeed if so we held, we might wel returne to their Church of England; for there is false worship more then yenough. The Apostle writing to the visible church of Ephesus, calleth them cEph, 1, 1.Saincts, and th… faithfull in Christ Iesus. Wil they say that this also was utterly untrue? Their own Articles of religion in England dAno 1562 art. 19.say thus; the visible church of Christ, is a congregation of faithfull people &c. and is this also vtt…rly vntrue? But let vsus hear their reason why this should be vntruth. For (say they) if eueryevery one that the church may account a visible member, be truely faithfull, how is our Sauiour to be vnderstood when he compareth the chur…h or ministery thereof to a draw net gathering aswel that which must be cast away as good fish &c. Me thinks these godly ministers f should be ashamed so to depraue not onelyonly our meaning, but our very words, that when we say of faithfull people, that truely worship, they wil turne and trans… lace them to truely faithfull, and then gather (as afterwards they doe,) as if men may not account any to be members of the church, by their outward profession, vnl…sse they know them to hauehave true faith, which the Lord onelyonly is able to dis…rne. Could any reasonable man thus construe our words, or gather from them, vnlesse he purposely would depraue? especially knowing (as these men know wel) our constant witnesse otherweise, who esteeme of all men, by their outward profession and walking; and hauehave long since published in our Confussion, eArt, 17·that many hypocrites will lurke in the church whiles it is on earth. But thus it pleased these men to abuse vsus, before the simple reader.
Their third reason for their church is, that fpag, 168they hold teach and maynteyn every part and article of Gods holy truth which is fundamentall. The proof of this,3. Reason, they would hauehave to be seen in their Confessions, Catechisnes and Articles of religion published and approued of in their church.
This reason is like (if not the very same with) the former, which s…ake also of professing the true faith, as was to be seen in their Conf…s…n, Answer,Apologie, & Articles. What meane these ministers to cloy their reader so oftē with one dish of meat, a little diuertly dressed? It is doubtlesse for want of better store. Yet this wh…ch they bring is very vnsauoury, for it is not seasoned with the salt of Gods couenant. First for that poynt of f…ndamentall truth, which they so long hauehave stood vponupon, and co…ld neu…r be gotten distinctly to shew what truth is fundamental, and what not: we hauehave now these ministers resolute judgement of it thus, apag. 174.The onelyonly fundamental truth in religion is this; That Iesus Christ the Son of God, who took our nature of the Virgin Mary, is our onelyonly and alsufficient Sauiour For proof of this, they first allege, that th…y receiue this truth are the people of God, and in the state of saluation: they that receiue it not cannot possibly be saued. Mat. 16.18 Mark. 16.16 1 I…h. 4.2. Col 2.7.
But first, none of these scriptures doe say, that this one article, which these ministers hauehave set downe in this forme of words, is the onelyonly fundamentall truth in religion. Neyther doth any other scripture, that I know of, so speake; for though Christ b1 Cor. 3.11.onelyonly is the foundation of the Christian church; and though (as they secondly allege) no other point of religion is necessary otherwise then as it tendeth necessarily to teach or confirme this one truth: yet foloweth it not, but other points also are fundamental truthes the denyall of which will abolish from Christ.
Secondly they hauehave altered, added to, and omitted some of the words of these scriptures, for their own aduantage: For fearing that we would (as indeed we mean to doe) presse them with the profession of the Anabaptists Papists and other heretiks; they thinke to preuent vsus. And first against the Anabaptists which deny that Christ took our flesh, these men hauehave added, who took our nature of the Virgin Mary. Then against the papists which hold merit of works, they adioyne these words, our onelyonly and alsufficient Sauiour. And this because the church of England mainteyneth the truth in these points, against those fore sayd heretiks. On the other hand to help themselues in their corrupt Antichristian walking, and false constitution; they omit and mention not th' Apostles words Col. 2. wher he sayth, cvers. 6.7.As ye hauehave receiued Christ Iesus the Lord, so walke in him, rooted and built in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye hauehave been taught &c The discreet reader may soon espy their purpose in this cunning cariage.dMat 16.16. For let the position be set downe in the scripture termes, and we shall see, how weake their plea will be. The onelyonly fundamentall truth in religion is this: That Iesus is e1 Ioh 4.2.the Christ, the sonne of the liuing God, fMark. 16 16.comen in the flesh in whom we must gCol. 2.6.7.beleeue and h walke, being rooted and build in him, and stablished in the faith as we are taught in the new testament.
If now these ministers will insist vponupon the three first scriptures onelyonly, and generall terms that are in them; it is apparant that the Papists, Anabaptists and many other miscreants, doe hold and professe them absolutely: absolutely: But if they joyne with them, Colos. 2. and compare the walking rooting, building, and stablishing in the faith taught by th' Apostles, with the Popish church, or with their own; it wilbe found that neyther of them hold the fo…ndation Christ aright. Themselues w…ll grant it of the Pap…sts and other heretiks. and for their own church, it is before in this apag, 74. &c.treatise proued▪
So then to come agayn vntounto their reason, that they hold, …e…ch and mainteyn eueryevery part of Gods holy truth which is fundam…ntall; whereby they woul… concl…de themselues to be a true chr…ch the ar…ument is deneyed. F…r first if …t were granted that th…y h…ld, …aught and mai…teyn…d every part of fund…ental truth, which yet with them is but one article onelyonly as we hauehave heard,) it w…ll not follow necessaryly that therefore they are a true ch…rch, or that they truely professe the Christ an faith. There wan… two things; 1 obedience to the truth professed; (witho…t which men bIoh. 3, 36 Mat, 7.21 23 Rom. 2, 6.8.shalbe damned, whatsoeuer they professe,) 2 and a right profession of the true faith onelyonly, without err…urs adioyned that ouerthrow the same faith, and obedience thereto For if a people profe…sing that onelyonly fundamentall truth which these ministers cpag. 174.speake of; should withall professe Mahomet the prophet of the Turks; or H. N. the God of the Familists; or any other like abomination: were this misceline profession of Christ and Belial togither. a true and sound profe…sion? I trow not. So then these ministers must alter their plea thus; that they hold teach mainteyn and obey every part of the fundamentall truth, and nothing els with it, that ouerthrowes the same. If now they say this they doe, I hauehave before in this treatise dpag, 74. &c.disproued it; and here agayn will briefly disproue it, thus. They professe to beleeu eIn the Creed,the Communion of Saincts; and that the visible church is fArt. 19, anno. 1562a congregation of faithfull people. Yet contrariweise they hold teach and mainteyne, that their own church is a true church of Christ; though it consists as wel of vnholy as holy, infidels as beleeuers and innumerable wicked persons openly seen and known. That this they hold & mainteyn, is pro…ed by their continual clamors and reprochful writings against vsus, that call vponupon them for a separation of light from darknesse. It is proued by Dr W…itgifts plea before mentioned, that the children of Papists, heretiks, and other wicked persons are and ought to be baptised amōg the… It is further proued by the visible estate of their church knowne vntounto all among them, and test…fied by her dearest freinds & fauourers. M… Gifford speaking to his brethren …f the Communion of Saincts in Engl. sayth, gCoūtry, diuinity, fol. 19.Yee would euen powr out your stin…ing and r…t…en p…yson, like blaspemous and venemous beasts: ye would speake after this manner, you that are so full of the spirit; you that are Saincts, and su…h like. What are you Di…ils; are ye of the flesh? No do…ut ye are, vntill God convert ye. But we may se how diui…ishly men ar become wicked: when a man cannot make any appearance to be godly and holy, but it is reproched as though it were a shamefull thing to be lead by the spirit &c. These and the like records, with the continuance continuance in this confused estate, plainely proue an ouerthrow of that article of the true church; which is the body of Christ: and the body being disanulled, Christ the head cannot soundly be reteyned.
Agayn, they professe in Engl. that aArt. 19. anno 1562the pu…e word of God is to be preached, the sacraments duely administred &c. also, that bibid, art. 17,in our doings, that will of God is to be followed which we hauehave expresly decleared vntounto vsus in the word of God. Yet withall, they professe and practise in that church, to cBook of cō mon prayerread the Apocrypha …criptures (in which are found vntruthes and errors, when many parts of the authentik scripture, are neuer read among them.) they hauehave also written dArt. 35. anno, 1562homilies, in sted of preaching; a written Le…tourg…e, Letany, collects &c. in sted of praying; which eConsti. & canōs, 1603Leitoargie with all the popish contents therein. must be approued and vsed by all the Priests and people, and God serued by it eueryevery day. They hauehave also an antichristian clergie, ca…led and ordeyned according to their pontifical, or book of ordination, which …n their beleef,fArt. 36, ano. 1562 hath not any thing that of it selfe is s…perstitious and vngodly &c. Finally all the Romish reliques yet in England to be seen in the hierarch…e, worship, ceremonies, ordinances church constitution &c. (which things can neuer be approued by the word of God,) are yet gCanōs, anno 1603. & their practise according.held and vpheld, taught and mainteyned in the church to the excommunicating and persecuting of all such, as speake against them, or refuse to communicate with them. This sinfull mixture, and maintenance of so much ant…christian error, with the christian truthes that they profe…e; is no true Christian profession and practise of our obedience vntounto the fundamentall truth of the gospell: neyther can the ministers proue, that these contraries will stand together, when account shalbe giuen before the iudgment seat of Christ.
Secondly I answer (as to their former reason that although some Bishops and Priests hauehave written Articles, Catechismes &c. yet are not these approu…d, much lesse walked in, by the church of Engl. neyther are the people rooted, b…ilded, and stablished in the faith according to Colos. 2. but are di…olute and profane in their conuersation, rooted in uices, and stablished in iniquitis as lamētable experience teacheth all men; as the test…mon…es of their own ministers before alleged proue, and many other we might allege, and must; if these men still continue to vrge that, which is knowne to be farr otherweise. For how well their people doe walke in the faith of the foundation Christ, and approue of all fundamentall truthes in the scriptures; let these testimonies of their own freinds shew. The most part of your honest men (saith Mr Gifford hCountry Devinity fol. 73to and of his brethren) now a dayes, delight so much in the word of God, and meditate so much in it, that they care not a button though they neuer heare it. they louelove it: and set as much by it as they doe by an old s…e. EueryEvery man (sayth iPreface to Mr, D. Fenners Coūterpoysan other) followeth the pride couetousnes, whordome, dronkennes, of his owne hart, and no man remembreth Ioseph. The barrs are filled with pleadings, & the streets are full of cries of the poor, fulnes of meat, and contempt is among vsus, and who considereth! Yet if this our sinne were onelyonly against men, and not against God there …ight be some hope. But when the mouth of the bl…spemous swearer is not ti…d vp, and the hands of the idolatrous generation of Atheists and profane persons be not chained, when the most holy and precious word of God is manifestly contemned, the ioyfull and heauenly tidings of saluation so negligently and vngratefully troden vnderunder foot, the true and faithfull messengers pursued, arraygnned and diuers wayes …fflicted: then if the old world for malicious imaginations Sodome and Gomora for pride fulnes of meat and vnmercifulnes: if Ierusalem for abusing Gods Prophets and wilfulnesse were woefully destroyed: what may we poor carelesse People look for it we doe not repent, but (as it is almost vniuersally feared sp…edy ruine and vtter desolation,
The exceptions which these Godly ministers take against Mr Barrowes writings, and yet professe apag, 169.not to answer them; need not now to be stood vponupon, till the particulars whereby he hath discouered their errors and euill dealings, be by them taken away. They further taxe & note it in him as bpag. 173.a strange opinion and an error full grosse, mainteyned in pag. 156.157. of his Discouery, vidz that eueryevery truth conteyned in the scripture is fundamentall. But the grossnes or crossnes wilbe found in themselus for that which Mr Barrow there inueigheth against, was this, cDiscouer. Pag. 156.that though transgressions and errors be obstinately continued in, and openly taught. after they be reproued and conuinced by the word of God, yea and the parties dye in that estate without repentance of these transgressions or errors: yet may they hold the foundation and be vadoubtedly saued. Of this minde were, and still continue (sayth he) fiue of the very principal and best esteemed ministers of Engl. both for learning and conscience: although there were alleged against the same these expresse scriptures, Num. 15.30 31. Exod. 23.21. 1 Sam. 15.22.23. Ezek. 18.26 Mat. 5, 18, 19 Iam. 2 10. &c.
This was the thing that M, Bar. there bet down, shewing further, that if the whole scripture was giuen by inspiration of God, and is profitable to teach, to conuince, 2 Tim 3, 16 Prov. 30.5 Psal. 19.8. & 12.6. Psa. 119 entyre. Eph, 2 20.to correct, to instruct in righteousnes; if it be the groundwork and foundatiō of the church, of our fayth: if it be the law and rule of our life, the light of our eyes &c. If eueryevery word of God be holy, pure, perpetuall; then is this deep learning of theyrs, diuilish and blasphemous, that thus to colour and couer their wickedness. make some part of gods word fundamentall. substantiall, necessary, other accidentall, superficiall, needlesse, especially where it sheweth reproueth and condemneth their doings &c
Now what say these ministers against this plea? they plainly yeild in effect to th'truth, which they could with no coulour gainsay; we beleeu (say dPag. 174they) and teach, that there is no Part of holy scripture, which eueryevery Christian is not necessarily bound to seek, & desire knowledge of so far sorth as in him lyeth. Very wel sayd &; had they added also this word obeyed, (which I suppose they would be thought to intimate,) there would be no difference between M, Barrow and them, though thus they would traduce him. But least they should seeme to condemne themselues, they except. yet dare aibid…m.we not cal eueryevery truth fundamentall; that is, such as if it be not knowne and obeyed, the whole religion and fayth of the church must needs fall to the ground; and agayne; bpag, 173,we doubt not that some parts are of more vse, and more necessary for men to know, then othersome. In these things (excepting the word fundamentall which seemeth to be but strife about a word,) We agree with them; neyther doth Mr Barrow, that I can perceiue disagree for it is one thing not to know and obey eueryevery truth, as they speake, and another thing to know, as hau…ng reproofe and conuiction by the word of God, and yet to disobey and rebel against the truth, and continue obstinately in transgre…sion▪ which was the poynt in hand. And for the world fundamentall, seing all Gods testimonies are true; and Dauid sayth that the Lord hath cPsal. 119 152.founded them for euer; I see no cause why we need be afraid to call eueryevery tr…th fundamentall that is such as is firme and stable. and on which we shovld ground and builde our faith and actions vp on alwayes. Yet seing now what these ministers vnderstand by the word, I will not striue. Also M, Barrow himselfe in his Obseruations vponupon Mr Giff…rds last reply telleth him that he dAnswe to Artic 5denyeth not in vse of speech such distinction, so much as withstand such eronius abuse of that distinction, which M. Gifford and other deuines of these tymes would infer thereof. And in deed the simple are much beguiled by this subtile distinction. For when the sinns and idolatr…es of these Priests are blamed: answer is made, though they be sinns, yet are they not fundamentall, they cut vsus not off from Christ we hold him the foundation, and beleeue to be saued by him alone and by this colour, men continue in transgression and idolatrie stil. which is as if a theef, dronkard, whormaister, blasphemer, or other vicious, liuer, being blamed by the lawes of God which condemne these sinnes, should say; These are petty faults I confesse, but they are not fundamental: for the onelyonly fundamentall truth and ground of all Gods law is LoueLove, and that is the fulfilling of the law. Rom. 13.8 9.10. Gal. 5.14. 1 Tim. 1.5. Now this foundatio… I hold, for I professe to louelove God aboue al, and my neighbour as my s…lfe, on which ground as Christ sayth eMat. 22.40.the law and prophets doe depend; and this I doe, howsoeuer I cannot keep my tongue from swearing, lying and …i…auldrie, nor my hands from picking and stealing, nor my body chast, &c. yet my hart is good, I louelove God and my neighbour, and hope to he saued as well as the precis…st puritan of them all, And now what will these ministers say to the…r profane parishioners, if thus they pleaded? for doe not themselues thus plead for the trans…reossins of the first table, and violating of the testament of Christ, in their own false ministery, idolatrous rites, ceremonies, and forged worship. But as eueryevery true Christian hart knoweth that such profane ruffians, howsoeuer they say they louelove god, yet in deed they hate him, and howsoeuer the s…mme and end of all the Law is LoueLove onelyonly, yet that louelove implyeth obedience to every particular precept, and he which breaketh the least commandement and teacheth men so, shalbe called the least in the kingdome of heauen; as Christ fMat 5.12sayth: so know they likeweise, or should know, that such superstitious idolaters, false and Antichristian Prelates and priests, howsoeuer they boast of true fayth, yet by theyr works they deney it; and although Fayth in Christ be the foundation of Christian religion, yet in im…lieth necessarily Ioh 3.36. Rom. 1.5.obedience vntounto the ordinances of his Testament, euen bIoh 13.14 Mat 28.20whatsoeuer is commanded them therein; and as the curse is denounced against all the transgressors of Moses law Gal 3.10in any part thereof; so they shall not escape vengeance dHeb 2.2.3 & 3.7.8 & 10.26 &c. &. 12, 25.that wilfully despise the law of Christ or any part of his testament, confirmed with his precious blood. And if thus we vnderstand not and interpret those scriptures which sum vp al christianity in Christ; we must needs confesse that many false churches, euen Rome it selfe is a true church; seeing they doe professe such generall grounds of Christ, as by playn evidence of scripture seem sufficient vntounto saluation, as appeareth by Council Trident. Se…s, 3. compared with Rom. 10.9. Act. 8.37, 38. 1 Ioh. 4.2. Mark. 16.16. also Rhemes testam annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5. wher they professe, Christ by nature to be truely both God and man, to be that on eternall priest and redeemer, which by his sacrifice and death vponupon the crosse, hath reconciled us to God, and payed his blood as a full and sufficient ransome for all our sinns, &c.
How beit, that these ministers stumble no more at that we professe, let them know, we hold eueryevery generall head and ground of doctrine more necessary to be known, then ech particular branch of the same? & an error ouerthrowing a whole ground of religion, to be much more wicked then that which ouerturneth but a part thereof. Also that many of Gods church, are ignorant of sundry particular doctrines of the Gospell yea Psa… 9.12all of vsus in some, for none is perfect; yet that in some generall grounds, ignorance is damnable; and further that the wilfull and obstinate refusall or contempt of the least evident truth of the Gospel, is fIan. 3.2.deadly and damnable of it own nature. Neyther see we, how we should beleeue otherweise, vnlesse with the Papists we think some sinns veniall some mortall As for Mr Barrowes words from Ioh. 16.13. which also, these ministers mistaking doe gRom 6.23 1. Ioh 2.4.6 & 3.6.8.9 … pag. 171,mislike; it is evident by his own writings hSee cōfer. in th' Fleet with Mr. Hutch and D'Andrews 4 Reason,to the contrary otherwhere, that he meant not so erroniously as they collect. But that promise made to the Apostles, he applieth vntounto all the members of Christ by proportion, though not in like measure. Which that it may be done, we learne of the Apostles themselues in other like cases. 2 Cor. 4.13. from Psalm. 116. Heb. 13.5.6. from Ios. 1 & Psal. 118. &c.
Their last reason is from the approbation of all the known churches in the world, which acknowledge this church (of Engl.) for their sister, and give vntounto them the right hand of fellowship. This poynt is handled before in this treatise, pag. 9. &c. & 48 & 51. &c. vntounto which places I refer the reader. Many scriptures and reasons these ministers allege from the primitiue churches examples, that reioyced for. and saluted one another; & of and of the comfort that a church may hauehave in the communion and approbation of other churches. All which we grant; and d…e obserue, how fast …hey can cite scriptures for things that we deny not. But they say nothing for the controuersie between them and vsus. which consisteth of these 3. poynts; 1 whither a people may not separate from euill and professe and walke in the truth vnlesse or vntill other churches allow them 2. whether it be a necessary and vndenyable argument, that whomsoeuer other churches approue, they are true churches, and so must be esteemed of all men; 3 and whither the reformed churches at this day, doe approue of the church of England, in all or any of the differences for which we s… parate from them. The first of these is proved by all Gods commandements, which require eueryevery man particularly to refrayn all evill, and doe that which is good: Exod. 20. The second is disproued by themselues in their writings against the Papists; who pressed them with such reasons. Let councels (sayth aIn the answer to Mr Raynolds preface.Mr Whitaker) be esteemed as they deserue: let their decrees be examined by Gods word; and if they agree let them be receiued for that agreement: if not, let them be reiected for the contrary. To this agreeth their own Bishops Articles, ano 1562. Art. 21. and also their Apoligie; before alleged in bpag. 92.this trea…ise; and finally Mr Bernards own counsel. (though perhaps he knew no more then Caiaphas what he sayd.) saying; cpag. 8.See into the glasse of the word by thine own sight, without other mens spectacles &c. For the latter poynt, we know the reformed churches (as their constitution and writings shew) are for vsus and against them; of which see before pag 10, &c. and it shall hereafter be further confirmed, if these ministers will deny it.
Hitherto of the reasons alleged by the godly ministers wherein how they hauehave proued and setled their first position; let the godly wise judge. Next follow their answers to the obiections made by vsus. And these they make two.
First, that their church of Engl. was not gathered by such meanes as God in his word hath ordeyned and sanctified for the gathering of his Church. dpag. 18…Secondly, epag. 191.that they communicate together in a false and idolatrous outward worship of God, which is polluted with the writings of men, vidz. with read slinted prayers, homilies, catechismes, &c.
Here let it first be obserued, that whereas Mr Barrow (whose books they would seem to answer,) hath fRefut. of Giff pag, 1.giuen 4. causes of our separation, namely the 1. false worship, 2. profane people, 3 false ministery, and 4. Antichristian hierarchie; these godly ministers like the vniust steward gLuk 16, 6that set down fifty for fiue skore, hauehave contracted the 4. causes into 2. for what cause let him that readeth consider.
Secondly in the two which they professe to answer, they keep not the words by Mr Barrow there set downe; as to begin with the first; he sayth For that the profane vngodly multitudes without exception of any one person are with them receiued into and reteyned in the bosome of the church TheseRefut pag 1 ministers set down the poynt to be about the not gathering by due meanes. Whereas if it were granted that they had due meanes of gathering, yet the exception made is of force against them, rather more then lesse for they that hauehave the true meanes of gathering a church, and yet gather it amisse; the greater is their sinne.
Now to the particulars, whereas Mr Barrow had first aDis, p, 8.shewed by many scriptures and reasons what manner persons were to be the matter of Gods church; and then compared here with the people of the church of Engl. where all sorts of wicked persons are admitted & kept in communion: to this the ministers answer, bpag. 182.183, Ioh 20.19.First that they might lawfully be accounted a true church, though it could not appear that they were at the first rightly gathered. For euen as the Disciples might be wel assured of Christs bodily presence amongst them when they saw and felt him, though they could not hauehave discerned which way or how he could possibly come in. so may we esteem them a true church, of whose present profession and faith we are wel assured, though we cannot see by what meanes they were first gathered. This answer of theirs is full of errour and frawd; for, (not to speake how they corrupt Mr Barrowes words in the places which they quote; by leauing out things of speciall importance,) first they blamed because all profane & wicked persōs ar of the mater their church; they tel us, they may esteem them a true church of whose present profession and fayth, they are wel assured. If this answer be direct and to the purpose then we must beleeue that the godly ministers are wel assured of the present profession and faith of all the lewd, profane. irreligious and wicked persons in the realm, which are members of the church of Engl. Against these was the exception made; for these the answer is giuen, vnlesse they answer their own fansies. and now what assurance the ministers have of such mens faith, let the faithfull iudge.
Secondly the similitude which they bring, is a great abuse of the reader, whome they would blinde with a false comparison; which if it were duely made, would make against them thus. As the disciples might be wel a…ured of Christs bodily presence when they saw and felt him &c. so men may he wel assured of the wickeds bodily presence in the church of Engl: when they see and feel them, as who doe not? But now as these men hauehave made the parable, what likelihood of truth is there in it, for iustifying the vngodly? If a man seeing a Priest in bed with one of the Popes courtizans, should blame him for this fornication, and an other to defend him should plead thus; As we are sure that Sarah was Abrahams wife, though we cannot tell when or how they were married. so may wee esteeme these two (of whose present chascity we are wel assured,) to be lawfull man and wife, though we cannot tel how they came together; would this be a sufficient defence? Yet loe when Mr Barrow blamed Dis. p. 10.the Priests of England for linking themselues in the bed of spirituall louelove, with the idolatrous Papists and all other wicked of the land, at the beginning of Q. Eliz. and continuing in like sinful commixtur vntounto this day: these Ministers now, to saue their credit, tel vsus an example of Christ presence, &c. as before is seen. Yea the indignity of it stayeth not here; for as the Apostle by the Ministery of the gospell prepared the church of Corinth, as a pure virgin for her husband Christ, so these men pretending to be true Ministers,2 Cor 11.24 will hauehave Papists, Atheists, profane and wicked persons, to be Hephzi-bah aI…a. 62, 4.people in whome God delighteth; they will bring this sinfull and adulterous generation, even all the vngodly in the land, vntounto the bed of Christ in his church, whether he will or no Which high transgression, is the ouerthrow of the mayn ground of the gospell; which euer since it began to be sounded in the world, hath proclamed a separation of the children of God from the children of Belial, as before hath bene proued. This being thus obserued, how these ministers hauehave missed at first o… the question; the further they goe, the further they stray, and run themselues out of breath in vayn. For neyther the examples of Melchisedek, Iob, Cornelius &c. nor their reasons following of 2 other meanes of gathering the church then by the preaching of the Gospel; 3 of the preaching of Mr. Wickliff. &c 4 & 5 of the course that Q Elizab. took for bringing the Gospell in agayne &c. none of these (I say) will proue eyther that open profane and wicked persons, may be receiued and kept in the bozome of the church; or that there be not multitudes of open profane and wicked, members of the church of England. Their present lamentable estate proclaymeth this latter to all men that hauehave conscience; their own writings also heretofore doe strongly confirme it: and all the scriptures cry out against the former & teach a separation as before in this treatise, and in sundry other books is manifested.
As these ministers have thus passed by the mayn controuersie; so hauehave they in their pretended answers, inserted some things corruptly and fraudulently: which I will briefly touch First, for to bolster out the constreyned profession of faith, and ioyning to the church which their people are compelled vntounto, they plead; bpag. 185.that Synce Kings became noursing fathers &c. to the church; their lawes hauehave been means to bring men to the outward society of the church; and the parable proueth, that men may be compelled to come; Luk. 14, 23.
This doctrine openeth a dore in the church to all the profane in the world, contrary to the scriptures; Isa 25.2 & 35.8, 9.2 Chron. 23.19. Reu. 21.27. Leuit. 10.14. Zac. 14.21, 2 Cor. 6.14, 17. Act. 2.41. & 19.9. For if a prince may compel some of his subiects to be members of the church, he may compel al; and if one prince may doe it, all may. So if there were such an Emperor as Augustus that commanded cLuk. 2.1,all the world to be taxed, he might also command and compell all the world to be ioyned vntounto the church. And thus the world and the church, between whom there hath been perpetuall warr, mought soon be reconciled. If this be a lawfull and orderly course, it is strange that Christ sent forth poor fishermen to conuert sowles by preaching, and set not the princes, (which he could as easily have done, seing he had aMa 28, 18al power in heauen, & in earth) to make disciples by compulsion and penalty.
Now for the parable they allege, it is apparant, that the same seruant was sent to bvers 17.21.22, 23.compell, that was before sent to call the inuited: and if this be meant of the Magistrate then, kings must leaue gouerning and goe to preaching. We finde in the scripture, that compulsion is not alwayes by the ciuill sword, but sometime by instant and earnest vrging of the word and doctrine; as they that cGal 6, 12compelled the Galatians to be circumcised; and he that dGal 2, 14compelled the Gentiles to Iudaize. And from this word compell, to vrge or gather a ciuill forced compulsion, is with no more reason or colour, then as if some factious rebells should take vp armes for to stablish religion; and allege how it is written eMa 11, 12the kingdome of heauen suffreth violence, and the violent take it by force For as force and violence here, is not ciuill but spiritual; so is compulsion to be taken in the parable. But a throne (sayth Solomon) gets vp in a dronkards hand; and a parable in the mouth of fools. Prou. 26.9.
They allege fpag. 185.that the first conuersion of our land to the faith of Christ, was by preaching of the gospell. Whether this were so or not, remayneth for them to proue in their next book for in this they doe it not. They must (I suppose) take the preaching of the gospel in a large sense, if they will proue it. For as it is vncertayn what was the fayth of the ancient Brittaines, or how they were converted; so for the English Saxons which were conuerred from Paganisme, Mr Bale one of their own writers) saith gIohn Bale Cent. 1. scri Brit, fol. 35that Austen the Roman was sent as an Apostle from Gregory 1. to conuert them to a popish fayth. And by an other Chronicler we learne hChr. Ranulph, Ci…er.that Pope Gregorie 1. sent this Austen the monk into Engl. with fourty monks moe, which entred the ile of Thennet on the east side of Kent, with a crosse & with banners displayed, hauing a crucifix painted vpō every one of them singing the Letany, with Orate pro nobis. to al Angels, Archangels, Patriarches, Prophets, Priests, Apostles, Martyrs, Confessors, Virgins, Monks Nunns, Heremites, and finally to all hee Saincts and shee Saincts, that they might hauehave good luck, and wel to fare, in setting forth their Romish religion. But howsoeuer the conuersion of English men was then (which is not now to be stood vponupon till we hear the testimony of the best approued histories, which these men ipag, 186. Rom, 1. 1 Cor 1 &c.say they hauehave for their assertion) it is sure by the scripures, that the churches in Rome. Corinth, and many other places were conuerted by the gospell: yet remayn they not true churches still. But (say these ministers) since that time many hauehave from age to age been called by the same means, And so say I, hath there been in Rome: yet is she a kReu, 17,harlot and not Christs spowse. Great numbers (say they) were effuectally called in K. Edwards dayes. I answer, the whole land was compelled by ciuill force to change their forme of seruice in part; and sundry true doctrines were taught in some places, which some beleued: but many disobeyed and rebelled. as before lpag, 120.is shewed. Neyther was that confuse popish multitude with a few conuers therein, a true visible church. Mr Fox describeth the estate thereof by a similitude; a aAct. and monū, edit, 5, p. 1180.a new face of things began now (sayth he) to appear, as it were in a stage, new players comming in, and the old being thrust out. Thus vponupon that old stage of the popish church, came new players, to weet, new Bishops & Priests; and the bibid. pag. 1181.masse was then (at first) still by law reteyned, but the gospel and Epistle read in English; yet were not all new players for (as is ther noted) the preists and clergie that yeilded to the kings lawes, were suffred to keep th…ir places, liuings &c. After this the king appoynted the c Archbishop of Cant, with other Bishops &c. to make one conuenient and meet order, rite and fashion of common prayer and administration of Sacraments &c. who did so. Then in the Parliament following, it was agreed that all ministers in the realm should be bound to say and vse the mattins, euensong celebrating of the Lords supper &c. in such order and form as was mentioned in the sayd book and none other or otherweise. But the players, it seemeth, played not their parts well. for after complaint is made, how ibidem. pag 1186.by the cloked contempt, wil full winking, and stubborne disobedience of Bishops and old Popish curates; the book of common prayer was long after the publishing thereof eyther not knowne at all, or els very irreverently vsed through many places of the realm. Yet was there no great cause why the people should so despise it; for (as the K. answered to the rebels of Deuonsh.) ibidem, pag 1189.if the seruice in the church was good in Latin, it remayneth good in English; for nothing is altered, but to speak with knowledge, that which was spoken in ignorance. Now let the reader minde what was the estate of the church in those dayes; and see if the word of God will approve it.
But there were say fpag, 186,these men) great numbers by preaching so effectually called, that in Q Maries reign, many sealed the truth with their blood: I acknowledge it; and say also that as there hauehave many martyrs died heretofore in the Popish church, so I doubt not, but great numbers at this day are by preaching so effectually called, in Rome, Spayn &c. that if Turks or Pagans should preuayl ouer them, they would mainteyn & seal Christian religion with their blood, rather then submit to Mahomet. For (as one of your best ministers hath truely sayd) M Dering 23, Lectur on Epistle to the Hebrewes, pag, 186.187God of his infinite goodnesse who c…lleth thyngs that are not as though they were, even in that ministery, hath giuen grace vntounto his Saincts; &, it was impossible that the man of sinne should so much adulterat the word of God, but that it should be to the faithfull a gospel of salvation. It is further alleged, h there were sundry secret congregations all Q Maries dayes which gladly receiued the gospell offred by Q. Eliz. & (say thes ministers) if it be sayd that they ceased to be the tru churchs of Christ, becaus they ioyned & became one body, with such as were newly come (and that not of conscience but for fear onelyonly) from idolatrie: we answer, that they rather that-had fallen from the Gospel in Q. Maries dayes were moued by Q Eliz: proclamation, to ioyne themselues vntounto them, that had stood faithfully all that while,
Here is still building vponupon the sands, for the profane & popish multitude had not receiued the gospel before, but (as hath been shewed) wer… constreyned by K. Edw. against their wills to hear English Mattins in their churches, where they were wont to hear Lati… Latin masse; and were glad with all their hearts when their old blind devotion did agayn take place, and they might suck the blood of such as spake against it. So they cannot rightly be sayd to fall from the gospel, which they neuer receiued. And what secret congregations there were in Q. Maries dayes, I know not: but if they were so secret, as onelyonly they met now and then in priuate, and ordinarily went to church openly with Papists, they were not a true church of Christ. And that constreyned, vnion of Papists and of Protestants at the beginning of Q Eliz reign, vnderunder Archbishops, Bishops, Priests &c. with most of the same mattins, evensongs, rites, ceremonies &c. that before had been imposed; this order can neuer be warranted by the testament of Christ, nor such a commixture proued to be a true church.
And whereas it is noted for apag. 187.an other vntruth that Mr. Barrow and Greenu…. should say, that in one day by the blast of her Maiesties, trompet at the Beginning of her reign, all sorts of men were drawne to a prof…ssion of the gospell, without any further means vsed: these ministers may be seen to be mere cauillers, and bent to depraue. For the words euen as themselues hauehave set bpag. 182.them down, (whereby the reader may espy their falshoode) were these, where such profane multitudes were all immediately from publicke idolatry at one instant receiued or rather compelled to be members of this church, in some parish or other, without any due calling to the fayth, by the preaching of the Gospell going before, or orderly ioyning together in the faith, there being no voluntary or particular confession of their own faith &c.
Now these men to reign an vntruth, yea an other vntruth when non… was afore, hauehave among other things, changed without any due calling to the faith into without any further meanes vsed; and then to conuince this their own fictiō, they tell vsus of sundry preachers sent betweē Nouember & Midsommer that called many. But his neyther cleareth them of corrupt dealing, nor proueth that the whole realme which at Midsommer was compelled to this church, worsh…p, ministery, &c. was duely called vntounto the fayth: much lesse that they orderly ioyned together in the same. So that the vntruth must rest in their own bosome.
pag. 188.This being proued (say these ministers) that there was a true Church in thi… land, before her Maiesties reign; the question must not be whether the meanes she vsed were the right meanes for the first calling and conuerting a people in the faith; but wether she took not a lawfull course for the recalling and reuniting of her subiects vntounto those true professors, whose fellowship they had forsaken.
Loe how these men run on, as if they had proued that, whereof we hauehave yet heard scarce any shew of proof. And altering closely the question, they say there was a true church in the land; whereas they must prou… a true church of the land, as now it is and long hath been esteemed the Church of England, hauing an Archbishop and other officers ouer it, which …re in their Conuocation house, the Representative Church of England. So it no… not being a true church the examples, they allege of reformation by the Kings of Iudah, fit not their turnes; for Iudah was a true church, though some corruptions had crept in, as will easily doe into the best.) Abijah the predecessor of Asa, mainteyned Gods true religion, and worship against idolatrous Israel both a2 Cro 14.8 9.10. &c.by word and sword. So Asa found not his kingdome a false church, as K. Edw: & Q Elizab. found England: yet vsed he that great care for reformation, mentioned, 2 Chro. 14. & 15. and his son Iehoshaphat after him greater care both to reforme and teach the peo…le. 2 Chron. 17. Afterwards when abominations had ouerspread the land, H…zekiah laboured a godly reformation, and opening the dores of the Lords house, he b2 Chr. 13 2.3.brought in the Priests and Leuites, not the Chemarins or Baals Priests, as the popish clergie (which their own notes on Reu. 9.3. acknowledge to be the Locusts of the bottomlesse pit) were brought in or rather reteyned still in this church, as Mr Fox sheweth, Hezekiah sent c2 Chr. 30 6.ouer all the land to conuert the people from idolatry; who dvers. 10laughed the messengers to scorne and mocked them howbeit evers. 11.divers submitted themselues and came to Ierusalem; and it was God that gaue evers. 11.Iudah a hart to obey the King and rulers according to his word Neyther were any admitted to the Passeouer but such as had voluntarily yeilded, repented, and eyther sanctified themselues, or els (being preuented through want of time) were fvers. 12.healed (or clensed) of the Lord, at the Kings prayer. The other disobedient. Israelites God punished gvers. 18 19.20.by the sword and slauery of Asshur, because they would not obey the voyce of the Lord their God. Finally Iosijah h2 Kin. 18 10.11.12: 2 Chr. 34.purged the land of idols & false worship, reduced his people vntounto the true seruice of God; which they with himselfe had ivers. 30.31.32.couenanted to walke in.
These examples we acknowledge al Christian princes should folow, hauing equall power with these Kings of Iudah, to abolish all idolatry within their dominions; yea and to punish obstinate idolaters, and not suffer any superstitious worship among their. subjects,Fides suadē da est non imperanda. Bern. in Cantic. but to procure their conuersion by the word, yet not to compell them to be members of the church, because they cannot giuegive them faith and repentance, which is the onelyonly dore into kvers. 30.31.32.Christs kingdome, and cannot be opened to any but by lMar 1.15 & 16.15.…6 Act, 2.37.38 & 8.36.377. Act 11.18. E…h. 2.8God alone. Which doctrine and practise these ministers (if they would not learne out of holy writ) mought hauehave seen set forth in their own book of Martyrs; where when Ethelbert King of Kent was conuerted and Christened, and after him innumerable other daylie came and were adioyned to the church yet the King (mAct and monum. edi 5 pag. 105. sayth Mr Fox) compelled none; for he had learned that the faith and seruice of Christ, ought to be voluntary and not coacted.
I acknowledge the Godly and gratious disposition and care of K. Ed. & Q Eliz. at the first for restoring of the Gospel; to be worthy of purpetuall praise and memory: and the error that was, in reteyning the popish profane multitudes, the Antichristian clergie, the Romish worship worship turned into English, (some few grosse things left out;) and th… other euils yet to be seen in the ecclesiasticall estate; these I iudge are rather to be im…uted vntounto the false clergie men, which were trusted too much in thes matters & dealt not according to the trust reposed in them but sought to inrich themselves with the spoyles of Bable and of Iericho the Bishopricks benefices, and other like Romish reuenues, rather the… for the build the howse of God, vponupon the foundations of Sion. And this sin cleaueth fast vntounto these priests, euen to this day; who cannot endure to hauehave their portion spoken against, but thinke all aAs appeareth by D Downams. Serm. on 1. Tim. 3.1. 2 pag. 80.81.86.87.too little that they inioy; when as for discharge of their functions in teaching the people, the most conscionable among themselues hauehave complayned to the Parliament b2 Admon fol. 43.that the word of God is negligently, fantastically, profanely and … thenishly preached; and all the land knoweth, that many ministers preach not at all.
Whereas these ministers tel vsus cpag. 190,of diuers congregations, that hauehave publikly professed their repentance for their former idolatry; it is well if so it be; & God giuegive them grace to goe forward in wel doing. But they tell vsus not of any congregation that professeth repentance for their present idolatrie, or that renounceth the communion of the other impenitent and profane parishes: which they should also doe if they would be d2 Cor, 6, 1…, 18.the sonns and daughters of the Lord almighty. Nay we know that if any among them doe this, they ar excommunicated ipso facto out of the church of England, by force of their canons, anno 160….
Finally, whereas these Ministers doubt not to affirme, that the whole land in the parliament held in the first year of her Maiesties reigne, did enter into a solemn couenant with the Lord for renouncing of Popery, and receiuing the Gospel. First they set not downe what couenant the Parliament then made nor how they renounced Popery; and therefore that is to be iudged of, when it shall more particularly be produced Secondly if then the Parliament house so did it is commendable in them but that the whole communialtie of the realm can be sayd to doe it with them, I vtterly deny. For howsoeuer all subiects are and ought to submit to the good ciuill lawes there enacted: and obedience may be inforced by eRom. 13the sword, if any man resist: yet in cases of conscience eueryevery man must liue by fHab. 2.4his own faith; men must gAct 2.4.gladly receiue the word out of which all religion must be gathered all Kings and kingdomes hPsal. 2.submitting vntounto the lawes and ordinances in Chr…sts Testament if they would hauehave blessing and saluation by him. And as the honourable in the Parliament, could not be baptised for the commons; so neyther could they repent or couenant with God for them: but the people must yeild their own willing consent, which they neuer did; but were and still are compelled by law and penalty to be of the church and religion established. Which how well they hauehave brooked, let the testimonies of the ministers before alleged, and the irreligious walking of many thowsands euer since manifest. For now our land is a reprouch to the idolatrous Papists aKe…. Sur 8, book in the preface 2 Obi…tio…for the multitude of Atheists and Machevillians that are therein.
The second thing (which these Ministers say) we obiect against the whole body of their assemblies is, That they communicate together in a false and idolatrous outward worship of God, which is polluted with the writings of men, vid. with read stinted prayers, homilies, Catechismes and such like. To which they giuegive this answer.
First it is euident by the word, Answer.that the church hath vsed and might lawfully vse in prayer, and Gods worship, a stinted and set forme, of words. And here …hey allege Num. 6 23.24. Deut 26.3.15. Psal. 22. & 92.1 Chro. 16.8.36. Luk. 11.2.
Very strange it is, that after so much time and consideration;Reply. men that professe to be ministers of the Gospell, should giuegive such an answer. The thing obiected against their worship made of the inuention of the man of sinne, was in the first answer to Mr Gifford (who shut his eyes, and would not see th' abominations of the same). bRefut. p. 8.shewed in sundry particulars; as the Romish fasts; feasts and holy dayes, Comminations, Rogations, Purifications, &c. blasphemous & hereticall collects &c. which cRefut. pag 29. &c. Discouer, p. 62. &c.after were more plainely refuted These and the like evils conteyned in their Leitourgie translated out of the Massebook, and imposed vponupon their parishesr being by Mr Barrow blamed: now come these ministers and tel vsus of Psalmes that Dauid made, of formes of blessing and prayer, that God and our Lord Christ prescribeth to his church; and these must countenance and bear our all the popish trash that is in their seruice booke.
But it would farr better hauehave fitted their estate and worship,cPlatima … vitis pootie Damasus 1 f if they had cited the Popes in sted of the Patriarches, Prophets and Apostles, who were altogether vnacquainted with this Rom…sh seruice. For howsoeuer Dauid made many Psalmes, yet not he but Pope Damasus (as writers say) dBlat. Vtalimus. 1. iordeyned Glory be to the Father &c. to be added vntounto them, and they to be sung by tournes, (as the church of Engl. yet vseth;) and Pope Vitalian eGuil Durammus.to make vp the musick, brought in the Organs, Yea the foresayd Damasus fAct. and monū. edi, 5 pag, 1184.inioyned Hierom to make an order of seruice for churches, and appoynt what prayers should be sayd on eueryevery day, and how many Psalmes &c. which being done, the Pope commanded al churches should vse that order and none other And a much like exploit was performed by the Archbishop of Cant. and his brethren in K. Edwards days (as Mr Fox gGuil Durandus Ifidorus.reporteth) for the seruice now vsed still in Engl. Agayne, for the particulars, who framed the Anthemes, Responds, Collects, hIoan. Laziasdus,and Kyries, that are sayd at mattins? neyther Prophet nor Apostle, but as iPlatiua de vit. Marcus 1,some say pope Gregorie I. and Pope Gelasius. And the same Pope Gregory put k the Pater noster into the masse. and commanded it to be sung; and Pope Mar…us I would hauehave the Nicene Creed sung after; the Gospell. Pope Anacletus thought it fit the priest and people should salute one another another in seruice time, and therefore …appoynted the one to say. T… Lord hear…th …, and the other to answer, And with thy spirit. Pope … …put i… at the Sacrament O lamb of God that takest away the sinns of the w…rl…, …h…u… mercy on vsus; Pope Symmachus…d added the hymme Glory be to G…d on high; and the other Popes b…ought in their parts, and patched together the…r Letani…, & Leitourgie out of which the English seruicebook is taken, Likewise for the fasting dayes and holy festiu…ties, though the Apostles appoynted them not, yet the Popes did: Telesohorus dPla…ina. Tel…sphorus & Celistus 1.woulde hauehave the Lent to be fasted; and Pope Calistus the fowr times in the year, or Imbring dayes. Pope Syluester 1. eBergomen sis.added the Wednesdayes, Frydaye… and Satur…ayes weekly; and Pope Innocen… 3. fLyb 3 decretal. Grego.put vntounto the former almost all the Apostles eues. The Saincts and Angels were also beholding to these Reuerend fathers for hallowing their dayes. For generally all the Saincts found such fauour with Pope Boniface, gVolator, Platina. Bonif. 4.that they had not only a catholik holy day giuen them, called All-hallomes, but a famous Temple in Rome once ded…cated to all the D…uils and called Pantheon, was turned by this holy Father into the name of Maria rotunda. and consecrated to the hono…r of the B Virgin‘ and all martyrs Pope Felix 3, iFasci, temmad holy the day of the archangel Michael, hLib ConBoniface the 8. kPap, suppl anno 1604 Reasō of religion, 13.shewed like honour to the 4, Euangelists, and many other memorable gests are recorded of the Fathers of the See of Rome, whereof there is not a word in the Testament of Christ, that he or his disciples did euer the like. For they appoynted not priests apparall, long gownes, tippers 4. horned capps, as did Pope Zacharie; nor a white linen surplice at seruice time, as did Pope Syluester 1. They hallowed no Temples or Churches as did P. Hyginus, nor Churchyards, as did P. Calistus 1, Neyther ordeyned ringing of bells to call the people to diuine seruice, as did P. Sabinian. They appointed no Rood-loft to part the Chancel from the church, as did P. B… niface 2, nor hallowed Font to Christen in; or Godfathers and Godmothers at baptisme, as did P, Pius 1. and Hyginus. They commanded not the people to goe procession as did Pope Agapetus 1. nor appoynted any Bishoping or Confirmation of children, as did P, Clement. 1. with a great number more of like pranks vsed in the Romish seruice. which Christs Apostles knew not, as their writings shew. But the church of Engl. (as next heir of Romes constitutions,) reteyneth these reliques, obserueth these rites and a many moe; for which the Papists doe insult and say that from their treasure house, the religion now established hath learned the forme of christening, Marrying, Churching of women, Visiting the sick, Burying: and sundry other lik… as the books translated out of theirs, doe declare. And now what sayth Gods law for all such things vntounto his people? I am (sayth he) lLeu 18, 2 3, &c,the Lord your God. After the doing of the land of Aegypt wherein ye dwel, shall ye not doe: and after the doing of the land of Canaan whether I will bring you; shall ye not doe; neyther walke in their ordinances. My iudgments shall ye doe; and my ordinances shall ye keep, to walke in them: I am the Lord your God, Thus he forbad them not onelyonly the worship of false Gods: but euen the imitation of idolatrous worship rites and ordinances in his seruice: wherfore he charged them againe, that they should not so much as inquire or aDeut, 12, 30, 31,ask how the nations serued their Gods, that they might doe so to the Lord their God. But whatsoever he commanded them, bvers. 32,they should make heed to doe it; putting nothing thereto, nor taking ought therfrom. Yet the Bishops and Priests of Engl. hauehave almost all things in their Lei…ourgie, according to the doings of that spiritual cReuelatiō 11, 8,Aegypt the Romish church wherein they dwelt, and hauehave imitated her worships‘ orders, ceremonies &c. reteyned her ministery, prelacy, courts, and canons: th… Latine being turned into English, and some grosse superfluities left ou…. And in defense of this worship, hauehave these godly ministers written, & Mr Bernard published their work: wherein if the reader see not a so…nd proof of the things that Mr Barrow (whose errors they pretend to confute) reproued; he must impute it to the badnes of their cause, which wil scars admit of any colour from the booke of God. For (besides the abuse of holy scriptures alleged to iustify these popish stratagems,) how sound & diuine, (or rather how fond and corrupt) is the reasoning of these men, from Gods example and authority, vntounto their own practise and power that because the Lord God gaue formes of blessing, prayer and psalmes to his people, (as the scriptures which they cite doe shew) therefore their Lords the Prelates may giuegive them also prescript words for blessing, prayer, and Psalmes &c. as is to be seen in their seruice book. Can we thinke that Ieroboam had so slender a reason for his goldē calues? Why doe not these men also plead, that God gaue a law by Moses? therefore ther may a law be giuen likewise by the Bishops: or, th' Apostles wrote a new Testament, therefore the Conuocation house may also write a Testament or Gospel; & bring it into the church? If the Prophets practise will bear them ovt in the one: I see no cause why it may not vphold them in the other. Wel, seing neyther Mr Gifford heretofore, nor these ministers now, can bring better defense for the work of their own hands wherewith they worship or rather prouoke the Lords I leaue them to consider of those lawes that eueryevery where cry dDeu 5, 8, 9, 32, 33 & 6 14, 15, 25 & 7, 25 26, & 12, 2 3.30 &c Isa 1.12.13 & 29, 13.14. Ier, 1, 16. Reu. 17.2. & 18.3, 11 12, 20,ovt against and shew the punishment of idolatrie. Neyther is it needfull to keep the Reader with longer answer, seing Mr Barrow in the fornamed books, and Mr Greenwood in a peculiar treatise against these stinted prayers, and se… worship hauehave proued the vnlawfulnes of them by many reasons, which neyther these ministers nor any other hauehave yet taken away. And when they write agayn, let them not bring proofs for things that we deney not; as that Daunds Psalmes may be sung in the church; and that in our prayers we may vse or apply, the words that other holy men before vsed in their prayers, vponupon like occasions; both these we grant and practise: but let them proue, (if they be able and their right hand can help them, that their own writetnn prayers, psalmes &c. may be read and sung in churches, church…, as Gods true worship and then also they may command the clowdes to rayn no more, and may cause to cease the bottels of heauen.
Like to their former plea, and maintenance of their seruice booke, is also their answer for Catechismes; as for Homilies it seemes they leaue the the defense of them to the simple priests that read them, but Catechismes are vsed euen by the learned preachers, therefore somewhat they say for them, as apag. 196.that the principles of religion were taught in the churches of old, Rō 2.20, & 6 17.2 Tim, 1 13, Heb. 5.12.13, 14 and 6, 1.2. But these ministers are eyther simple or very deceitfull, so to turne away from the question For we neuer deneyed that the grounds and heads of Christian religion should be taught to the people; far be it from vsus: but this we say, the Prophets and Apostles are not found to prescribe set words for the minister to teach, or the people to answer being examined. And that therefore these Bishops and Priests are very presumptuous, that wil take vponupon them to doe that which Christs Apostles neuer did in the churches. Agayn, that if those men of God had to done; yet seing the writings of Prophets and Apostles are canonicall scriptures, and so are no mens writings now: it will by no meanes follow, that if they wrote catechismes to be vsed in the Church, therefore men may writ some for like vse now. Yea rather why are they not content with that which is already written in the scriptures, but run to erroneous catechismes of humane writers, such as is that authorized catechisme in the book of common prayer, commanded to be vsed in the church of England?
Hauing heard what these godly ministers say for their people, and seruice book; I exspected somewhat also, for defense of their own minister, and the ecclesiasticall gouernment of their Lords the Prelates; which were the other two …eads of error excepted against, in the forenamed books. But in both these they are silent; and reason there may be for it: for the inferior ministery hangs vponupon the superior, the hierarchie, and now the godly ministers are in a great strayt, for eyther they must loose their ministery, and then what boots it to plead for the same, or els they must, (though they be loth) be buxome and submit to their Fathers the Bishops; and when this is done, it may be we shall see some such defense of two later, as we hauehave already of the former. Mr Bernard himself hath begun fayrly; for whereas a while since he was hot against the Bishops. he now cannot endure they should be bpag. 71,called Antichristian proud prelates or the like; and thinks cpag, 142.it can neuer be proued, that the entrance into the ministery by the Prelates, is a false entrance. So it is not to be thought but his Ordinary and he will agree wel yenough. Wel howsoeuer it be, God (I doubt not) wil turne all things to his own glory and furtherance of his truth; yea euen the writings of these aduersaries, shalbe a meanes to stir men up vntounto a consideration of their wayes, which God giuegive them grace for to doe, and to turne their feet into the pathes of life and peace that they may finde rest vntounto their sowles.