Counterpoison Considerations, Treatise 2 · Section 2
Of his REASONS.
HIS reasons now follow, of more force (as he hpag. 44.pretends) then his bare probabilities. These are three fold, taken 1 from the evill of the entrāce, in to this way; 2 from our persons so greueously sinning in this way; 3 from our opinions which are altogether erroneous and false.
The first sort of reasons, hauehave this foundation.1. The evil of the entrance.
The entrance is very sinful and cursed. Because of these 2 great evils. 1 That we doe not onelyonly condemn corruptions and the notorius wicked, but also forsake ipag, 44,all former Christian profession amongst them. A man must cast off that word there with them which made them aliue; also the faithfull messengers of God, the Fathers which begat him: yea he must renounce all fellowship of the godly there &c.
But we may with the Prophet truely complayn of this man,Answer. that his mouth is lPsa. 10.7…full of cursing and deceit and frawd; for how often hauehave we in our publick writings protested our consent in all the holy doctrines that themselues professe: onelyonly because we cannot enioy them without Antichristian abominations; which the Prelates impose, and the Priests and people practise we hauehave separated from those assemblies, where idolatry is publickly set vp and maynteined from those blinde guides that would seem to make concord between light and darknes, Christ and Beliall, and vnderunder shew of many truthes, seduce mens sowles vntounto destruction. Did the church of England forsake all former christian profession among the Papists, when they left the Pope and some of his Prelates, Masse, images &c. If not; then neyther doe we that hauehave left but the remnants of Popery yet reteyned; and doe walke in the truth to our knowledge and utmost power as God inableth vsus; not casting off any jote of his word, nor any faithfull messenger of his, or other godly person, as this adversary calumniateth. His hart knowes better, though it sendeth forth such bitter waters.
2. Next this he sayth apag, 46.with such a renunciation of truth, must be reteyned, much vntruth: the particulars are 1 that men must beleeu our way to be the truth of God; 2 and then condemn their church as a false church.
Answer.Whether our way be not the truth of God, let the Godly iudge by his word; by it also let them try the estate of the church of England. But Mr Bern. begging the question, will hauehave things to be taken for untruthes, before triall or due conviction. To help himselfe he seekes advantage by that we hauehave published as he sayth vnderunder our hand, that the differrences between vsus and them, are onelyonly such corruptions as are by vsus set downe. Though the word onelyonly be not ours, but Mr Bern. own; yet to let this passe as ordinary with him, what gathers he from it? Corruptions saith he, doe not mak… a false church, but a corrupt church, (make the worst of it that can be;) as corruptions in a man, maketh but a corrupt man, and not a false man. First let the reader obserue that he speaks not a word of those corruptions which we set down; neyther indeed is he able with our corruption to plead for them. Secondly it is very corrupt and grosse that he would perswade, no corruptions can make a church to be false: for then rebellious Israel, though they bZeph. 3.7corrupted al their works, was a true chuch still; but Moses foretold that for cDeut 32, 5corrupting themselues, they should be none of Gods children but a froward and crooked generation. Now let Mr Bern make the best of it he can. His simillitude of a man is not fit in this case. A man is a substance, but a church consisteth in relation or reference to Christ, as a wife to her husband. But if a mans wife play the whore neuer so often and openly, she may be, by Mr Bern. doctrine esteemed a corrupt but not a false wife. Such distinctiō he may cary to the stewes. Corruptions there may grow in churches and they yet be true churches as at Reu 2.14 15.Pergamus, fver. 20. &c.Thyatira, &c. corruptions also there may be that will make true churches false; as in Israel and Rome, where first wre assemblies of Saincts; afterward they became gEze 23, … Chro. 11.15. Reu 17 1, &, 18, 2whores and habitations of Diuils. And there may be such corruptions in the constituting of a church that embraceth much truth, as will make it from the first a false church, as in Samaria, 2. Kin. 1…, 27.28. &c
2 The persons greeuously sinning &c. 1 Syn.HIs second sort of reasons, is from the greeuous sinns that are among v…, by reason whereof (from our own ground) we may not (sayth he) be ioyned with. The sinns he reckneth 6.
First, that woefull entrance before named. I answer, that Mr Bern. entred into this reason with vntruth, and continued in it with begging the question, as before is shewed. So that this his obiection is very wofull a…d the man deser…eth rather to be pitied then answered in his i…le … made without proof.
THe second is a hie degree of vnthankfulnes both to God that begat vsus…ly, …is word, and to our mother the church of Engl. that bar… vsus. I answer,2. Syn. … thank God for that knowledge of him wh…ch we atteyned vntounto in the Church of England, and are thankfull also (as is meet) to all the instruments which God hath vsed to bring vsus vntounto knowledge: but now when God hath shewed vsus a further truth, (as what ch…l…e of his, seeth not more dayly,) we should shew great vnthankf…lnes if we would not walk in it, much more if we should blaspheme and persecute it, as Mr. Bern. and many of his fellow Priests doe, strugling against the light that shineth vponupon them; A papist may hauehave occasion of thankfulnes vntounto G…d a…d men, for the knowledge of God and Christ which he hath get in th… Ro…ish church, farr abo…e that which he could hauehave had among Pagans: yet if vponupon sight of the errors in Popery, he forsake that false church and ioyne to some other true, no man can without vngodlynes, condemne him of vnthankfulnes. The Papists heretofore hauehave vsed such reasons as these aga…nst the Protestants; now they, for want of better apply them a…inst vsus.
T…e third sinne imputed to vsus is,3. Syn. that we are full of spirituall vnchariblenes First toward th…m that will not goe our way, nor be inclinable to vsus whome (he sayth) we deeply censure and deadly condemn.
First, this also is an old popish cauill,Answer. vsed often against the Protesta…ts. One aKellison, Suru…y 1 book 4 chaptelleth them, they deserue the punishments of Parricides, for scoffing, taunting, contemning and reviling their forefathers.
2. Our vncharitablenes, (if such it be) is this, that we pray for and wish vntounto all, as to our own sowles, even life and peace we seek to couer a multitude of sinns which then is done, when sinners bIam 5, 20are converted from going astray. And for this cause we speak that which we beleeue and know, though the world therfore hate vsus.
3 C…nsu… or condemn those that go not our way we doe not, we know every man shall stand or fall to his own master. It is the sinne onelyonly which we condemn, the sinner we seek to saue, leauing him to the Lord who shall iudge both him and vsus at the last day.
4. But how charitable the ministers of England are vntounto vsus let thei… continuall reproches and vituperies in pulpit and in print shew: and how they censure and condemn vsus and all that will not goe their way; let Mr. Bernards own book speake where by the sentence of his godly ministers, every one is damned, as cpag, 263.cutting himselfe off from Christ, whosoeuer wittingly and continually separateth from the church of Englād, where yet so innumerable abominations and idolatries doe abound.
2. Secondly our vncharitablenes (as dpag; 52,he sayth) is a most vngodly desire as ever was heard of, to hauehave the w…rd vtterly extinguished among them, Aegyptian darknes to come over them, rather then that it should be preachedly such as doe not fauour our course &c.
Answer.Our desire is, that the Aegyptian darknes which now couereth the land by meanes of the false Prophets that are therein, were done away; and that the true light of the Gos…ell were risen vntounto them. We are sory to see the prophets (which hauehave night for a vision and darknes for a divination, as aMic. 3.6,was threatned of God,) …o to deceiue the people, by preaching lyes in the name of the Lord, when he neuer sent them Christ hath no need of such falsers to help up h…s k…ngdome he hath wayes and meanes yenough, by his own ordināce & min…stery to build vp his …hurch, though Antichrists clergie be sent back to the bottomles pit from whence bRev. 9.they came. We know men gather not cMat 7, 16grapes of thornes nor figs of thistles. Lamentable experience these many yeres, sheweth what hurt and misery commeth by this false hierarchy and priesthood, which vpholds idolatry, profanenes, and humane traditions; pleads for sinne, and against the truth; to the destruction of mens sowles. We wish people therfore to beware of false prophets, though they come in sheeps clothing; and to seek the Lord by his own ministery, not by Ant christs: for the theefe commeth not dIoh 10, 10but to steal, to kill and to d…stroy. Let them see by the lamps of God in his own Sanctuary and Candlestick, and walke in the light of Ierusalem his church, which eIsa. 60.1, 2.3, Reu. 21, 24,hath the glory of God arisen vponupon it leauing Vr of the Chaldees, and walking no long…r in the light of the fire and sparks that men hauehave kindled to themselues least fIsa 50 11they lie down in sorow.
3. The last poynt of our vncharital lenes, wh…ch M. Bern. gpag. 56.sayth is the highest degree of all, is that we are sorry and en…ious that the good things of God doe prosper with them. &c.
Answer.That the good things of God doe prosper with them, and the truth preuail manger all opposition; we hauehave cause to reioyce for, and doe reioyce, Yea and we doubt not, but the enuious writings and dealings of Mr. Bern and his fellowes, against the gospell, God will turne to the furtherance of the same; and the generation hPsa 112.2of the righteous shalbe blessed which the wicked ivers. 10,shal see and fret and gnash their teeth and pine away; when their desire shall perish. But what are the good things Mr. Bern. meaneth? Not the truth of God indeed, for that he blasphemeth and writeth against as Schisme and Brownisme. Nor the reformists cause, called Puritanisme; for that prospereth not, as all men see, but decreaseth dayly. The Prelates are the men that prevayl, for a wh…le; their canons are confirmed, their ceremonies flourish, and their hornes are exalted. Whether M, Bern, himselfe (who wrote not l…ng since a book against them, which also he was willing a gentleman should hauehave printed in his own name, that M, Bern. might hauehave slept in a wh…le … whither himselfe I say, and his fellow Reformists who are disa…oynt…d of their hope, be not sorry for this prosperitie, let themselues say. As for vt we hauehave learned *…sal. 37.not to fret or en…y when we see the wicked flourish; for they shall so…n be cut down as grasse, and wither as the green herb. Sory we are indeed for their lamentable estate and desire that they may find mercy, at the hands of the Lord.
Our fo…rth kind of sinne, he sayth is, our abusing of the werd, misaleging and … it, &c.The 4 syn. This was the third of his probabilities before ‡pag. 90.answered, and is here for a shew mustred agayn among our sinns; but nakedly and without all proof: I leaue it therefo…e to the reproof of God; and to the godly iudgements of all that shall read our writings and allegations of the scriptures.
The 5. sinne is our wilfull persisting in our schisme. The 5. synThis is agayn to beg the question, first let it appear to be schisme that we are in, let the reasons a…d grounds of our separation be orderly dealt in, and soundly convinced by Gods word: then if we yeild not, let vsus be holden wilfull. Otherweise, to persist in wel doing is good And as easily do the Papists cal Protestants schismaticks, as they vsus. Whether M Bernard with all the helps that he hath had from other men, hath conuinced vsus of schisme, let the godly judge. If reproching of vsus, and idle excursions into by matters, be a conuiction; doubtle…e he hath done it better then any before him.
The 6. syn, is our rayling and s…ffing, The 6 synand (as he sayth) Henry Barrowes blasphemies, who hath …gr…giously abused all their holyest exercises of religion, &c. I answer, if such sinne be in any of vsus, it is even by our selues condemned; and …f by humane infirmity any hauehave been ouertaken with vnseasoned speeches, we desire the Christian reader to bear with and pardon it in vsus, as himselfe would hauehave pardon of God The like hath Mr. Barr… earnestly intreated in his Preface to his Discouery, as the reader may see; so farr was he from delighting in such wayes.
Secondly I answer (howsoeuer I will not justify all the words of another man, nor yet mine own, for in many things we sinne all;) that many of the th…ngs which this man counteth raylings, scoffs and blasphemies, are no other speaches them the hol… Ghost hath vsed before vsus in the scriptures, and appl…ed to like persons; and seemed as harsh to men of those times, as these doe to men now.
Thirdly it is l…kely that some be rather the printers fault (vnlesse Mr. Bernard hath forged them himselfe), then Mr Barrowes.
Fourthly the Reformists themselus, amongst whome Mr Bern. sometimes seemed one, hauehave uttered as hard speeches against the Prelate… & other corruptions of their own church; though now like time seruers they gloze with their reuerend Fathers; as this man maketh the first of Mr Barrowes raylings scoffs and blasphemies to be his caling the Bishops ”It would be knowne what Mr B…rn, counted & caled them in his book that of late he wrote against them.Antichristian. But how many volum…s hauehave themselues heretofore written of this argument? And who amongst vsus hath euer dealt as did Mar…in Marprelate among themselues?
Finally Mr. Barrow did sharply in … against the reforming preachers, as being the greatest deceiuers of the people, vnderunder shew of holines. This maketh them a…ayn so e…er agai…st him; but whither he spake not right of them, may in part be seen already, & time will shew more; they can no longer halt as hitherto they hauehave; but eyther they must rec…ncile them to th…ir Fath…rs, or quite forsake them: and a ble…sed work of God it is, that the most dangerous seducers should thus first be discou…d.
THe third and last sort of reasons which M. Bern. *…ag., 78 &c. 1. Error.vseth against vsus, is, Our errors, and (as he sayth) the matter of our s…hisme.
The errors which he reckneth vp, and vndertaketh to confute ar… ten. The first of them is that we hold the constitution of their church to be a false constitution. To this he sayth,
1. That we cannot proue this simply by any playn doc…rine of scripture &c. 2. That it is against the euidence of the scriptures, which maketh the word, (Mat. 28.19. Mar 16 15. 2 Cor. 5.19. &. 11 2. Iob, 23.23.24. Act. 2.14.37.38. & 16.32.33.) the externall profe…sion Act. 8.12.37.38.) and Sacraments (Mat. 28, 19. 1 Cor. 10.16.) the visible and true constitution of a company so gathered and kn…t together; and so was theirs constituted: as that book of (Mr. Ber.) sheweth; and as in another ere long shalbe plainly manifested &c.Answer.
First Mr Ber. setteth down barely this as our position and doctrine, not name…ng place or bo…k where it is written, nor the proofs that we make of it, but perem…torily sayth we cannot proue it. Whereas it hath in ‡Discouery Resut of Giff. Confessiō Apology. Answer to Mr. Iacob &c.many books by many playn doctrines of scripture been euidently proued, so as Mr Bern. and all his fellow priests could neuer yet, make a playn and direct answer And if when book is writen after booke, no refutation be made, but a bare deneyall, as here M. Bern. sayth we cannot proue it, I say the ministers of Engl. may so turne away any thing; but with what credit or conscience, the wise will judge.
Secondly, for M. Bernards reason, it selfe wanteth a good constitution, being to confu…edly set down, as a man knowes not what he makes the constitution of a church; or how he would conclude that their church is constituted aright. He pretends the word to be the Constitution of a church; whereas the scriptures that he quoteth, and reason it selfe might teach him, that the word is the instrument or meanes of Constituting, & conseruing the church constituted; so also be the sacraments. But as the constitution of a common wealth or of a city is a gathering and vniting of people togither into a ciuill polity: so the Constitution of the common wealth of Israel, (as the church is ”Eph. 2, 12called) and of the city of God the new Ierusalem, is a gathering and vniting of people into a diuiue politie: the form of which polity is Order, as the heathens acknowledged, calling polity, †foreign Arist, 3. Polit, c. 1.an order of a city: which Order is requisite in all actions and administrations of the church as the Apostle * sheweth, and specially specially in the constitution thereof: so that next vntounto faith in God, it …s to be esteemed most necessary for all holy societies Wherefore Pa…l rejoyced for these two things in the Church at Col…ss…, *C…lo. 2.5euen their order, & their stedfast faith in Christ. Now whereas to the constit…tiō of a ch…rch there belong … a people, as the matt…r whereof, and 2 a calling, gathering and vniting togither, as the form whereof the church consisteth. in both these the Constitution of the Church of Engl. hath (in sundry treatises) been …roued false. For with them all sorts of profane worldly and wicked …ersons, are receiued as the matter whereof the church is builded, contrary to the …layn and manifest doctrine of the scriptures. Leu. 20.24 1 Kin 8 53. Act. 2.40, and 19.8 … Iohn. 17.16. 2 Cor. 6.14, …7, 18. The form and order of their v…iting is als… strange; for these profane people, euen all persons in a fam…ly, an… all families in a parish, are vnited into one parish church, as it is called; not voluntarily, …as ought to be ‡Act 2.4…in the true ch…rch, but by constreynt, not by any due profe…sion of repentance from …ead work… and faith in God; but by the priests readin… a Confession absolution, and such like popish st…ff as is to be seen in their seruice book, not vnderunder the guidance of Chr…sts officers, but of a Parson, Vicar, Curate or other like creature of the Bishops, who in many places can but read English vntounto them. And this with the other Par…shes of the Dioce…e so gathered also, are vnited into one See or D…oces… church vnderunder a Lord Bishop and his Co…rtiers, and all the Dioces into two Pro…inciall churches, the Prouinciall, into one nationall church, called the Church of England, ouer all which there is a most reuerend Father and spirituall Lord, Archbushop, Primate, and Metropolitan: vnderunder whome al Bishops and Priests of the land are subiect; and all people and parishes in the land bound to obey the dead canons and decrees, which he the Ach Lord with his brethren of the gouerning clergie, agree of in their repre…atiue church in the Conuocation howse, if once the Ciuill Magistrate giuegive life vntounto them. This forme and order of a church is not to be found in Chr…sts Testament; but receiued it is from the church of Rome by heritage or succession; as the Papists boast of (to the dishonour of Protestants) when they say; ”Supplic to the king anno 1604. Reason of r…ligion. 6.A religion &c. that distinguished the multitude into, p…rishes …roportiōed …he tithes, ann…xed th… Glebeland, fon̄ded the Bishopricks, …mitted the Dioceses &c, So, as the mother is the daughter is, false in her c… stitutiō; though in the doctrin which she profeseth she is far better & purer thē that whoremother of Rome. The discussing of thes things. as Mr Bern. refereth to other places & books, so also do I; seing in thi… place …e hath brought nothing of weight to proue his cōstitutiō. For the script…re that he alegeth, & the 3. things that he colecteth from thē; do make against his pur…ose. The word is not by Christs m…nistery ri…htly; reached & applyed to the people, but vnsufferabley abused to the maintenance or the confusion and idolatries that are among them: the sacraments are highly profa…ed and prostituted to the most vngodly and thir seed, and popishly administred, and the externall profession which the people, make is by constreynt, and therefore nought worth: besides it is corrupt and idolatrous, being a mixed profession, partly of the truth of God, & partly of their own inuentions, as appeareth by their Communion book Canons, and the like.
2. ErrorOur second error should be, that we hold their Constitution a real idol, and so them idolaters. To confute this, Mr Ber. sayth that he h…th perused in any scriptures, and can see none that take an idol or idolaters in any such s…nse; aga…n, that Marlorat mentioneth 47. idols, and not one of them in …he s…nse.
Answer.Whether this article be of Mr Bernards own forgin…, or where he hath had it, I cannot tell; his reader must take all of his cred…, for he lets not down his author. As for his confutation hereof, it is very slender, that beca…se he seeth it not, or Ma…lorat nameth it not, therefore it is no idol. For it is no sure position that Mr Bernard seeth all that …he scriptures; teach; and both he and Marlorat may as soon number the hayres of their heads, a… all the idols that are in the world. Wel therefore yet may …t be a real idol, for o…ght that this man hath sayd to saue it. And if it be a false constit…tion (as before is pro…ed) set vp in stead of a true, what is it better then a very idol. In the end he t…rneth and renteth vsus for making o…r own constitution (as he sayth) an idol or goddesse; and feighneth that we may say, Great is the Goddesse Constitution; great is Diana of the B… nists B…t seing this is but a re…roch of a scorner, and the reproch reacheth vntounto Christ himselfe who hath appoynted the frame order and constitution of h…s own ch…rch, which we hauehave laboured for I leaue him for this calumniation, vntounto his rebuke, who will teach him one day no more to blaspheme.
And whether (may we think) tendeth the inuectiue of this vayn man, who thus skoffeth at the Constitution of Christs church, but to bring in a mere ataxie or conf…sion, worse then was at Babels tower-building: for take away the orderly framing and constituting of a church, and there will be but a Tohu, (as the scripture *foreign Ier. 4.23 Gen, 1.2.3. Errorspeaketh,) a rude indigest heap or confute Chaos, more beseeming the wild beasts of the wood, then any humane, much les…e diuine pol…ty.
That such as are not of a particular constituted church, (to weet such a one as ours is,) are no subiects of Christs kingdome.
Answer.Neyther is this position set downe in our words; (to my knowledge;) neyther doth Mr B…rnard take away, but confirme rather the thing that we hold; for he ‡pag. 81,granteth that they offend God, which may and doe not ordinarily, (hauing … canes offred) liue in a church rightly constituted; and we grant that many of Christs subiects, for want of meanes, doe not liue in a true constituted church, If therefore he were not a caviller, he would not hauehave reckned this among our errors.
That all nor in our way, are without: and we apply against them (in Engl.) 1 Cor. 5, 12, Eph. 2, 12.4 Error
The first part of this position, you must impu…e to Mr Bernards charity, who w…ll needs frame our assertions for vsus,… because he thinkes we cannot speake for our selues; we might leaue it vntounto him to frame an answer also. But if he would let vsus tel, what we hold, it is, that all not in the way …f Ch…ist, are without: and if this be an error, let him make the most of it.
The applying of those scriptures against them, he must be content to bear, til he or his brethren can proue thēselues a true church; for though there b… great differences of peoples professing religion, some with more truth, …ome with lesse; yet all not w…thin Christs church, are without, as th… A…ostle speaketh. Mr Bernards exception, that those places are meant of s…ch as neuer professed Christ at all; is childish: why doth he not except a…a…n…t the holy Ghost himselfe, who *Reu 18, & oftē in that book.ap…lieth against the false Christ…ans of the R…mish Church, words and s…eaches meant first of heathen Babylon, that profe…ed not God or Christ at all.
His boasting of the word, sacraments, effects and deliuerances; are before in this traatise taken away. And Mr Bernards proofs, are but a begging of the question, which he blameth in other…, as before is obs…rued.
That onelyonly Sayncts, that is, a people forsaking all known sinne, 5 Error.of which they m…y be conuinced, doing all the known will of God, increasing and abiding euer thr…, are the onelyonly matter of a visi…le church.
Th…s Position I de…ey,Answer. and disclaym also the errors which he gathereth from …t: and therefore will spend no time in answering it; but refer Mr Ben to them that hauehave so spoken or writen, if any be. This we hold (… let vsus se what Mr Bernard can say against it,) that ‡1 Cor 1.2. Rom. 1, 7. Eph 1.1,Saincts by calling are the onelyonly mater of a true visible church. Yet withall we hold, that …any be calle…, †Mat. 20.16. & 22, 14.but few chosen.
That …he power of Christ, that is, authority to preach, to administer the sacram…s, and to exercise the censures of the Church, belongeth to the whole Ch…rch, yea to eueryevery one of them. And not the principall members thereof.6 Error. Answe..
This opinion, he calleth the A, b, c, of Brownisme: but he may put it if he please in the Criss-crosse rew of Bernardisme; he himselfe being the first that I euer heard to vtter such a position. This point he much vrgeth and …relleth vsus with; he mentoned it in his For…speech to the Reader, thus, Th… Pa…ist sayth, Christs ruling power is in the Pope; nay, sayth the Protestant. i… is in the ecclestasticall gouernours, Bishops, may sayth the Puritan, it is in the Presbyterte; nay, sayth the Brownist, it is in the body of the Congregation, the multitude, called the Church. And in this beginneth Brown…sme. &c.
Here first I require of Mr Bern. that he produce his autors, and shew the book, or writing, where we hauehave auouched such things. He tells his reader of all the errors that he ch…rgeth vsus with, that ”pag. 78.we hold & cannot deny them, being already auouched vnderunder our hands: and that he will not wrong vsus in setting them down, &c. Yet durst he not (as every honest writer writer in su…h controuersies vse to doe; an… if he doe not in his next, the reader may est…em of his truth and honesty as it is.
Next, for the poynt it selfe, I answer, Christs ruling power, which the Papists say is in the Pope; we say not (as this man calumniateth vsus) that it is in the body of the Congregation, the multitude, but in Christ himselfe; and that the Pope is Antichrist, not for taking into his hands the power of the mul…itude, but of Chr…st, to rule and gouern the church as Head of the same.
Agayn, Christs ruling power, which the Protestants say is in the Bishops the Prelates, we doe not say it is in the multitude; but in Christ himselfe: for he onelyonly is *1 Cor 8, 6. & 12.5.Lord of the Church, he onelyonly is ‡foreign. 1 Pet, 5, 4,Archbishop or Chief pastor; he only walketh among the seuen gol…en Candlesticks, as Ouerseer of the seuen ch…rches; ruling them by his lawes can…ns and decrees. Whereas the Bishops of England are s…irituall Lords, and one is Arch…ishop and Primate over all: they rule many ch…rches and min…sters, mak… new canons and decrees in their Conuocati…n howse;Reu 1.13 & 2.1. prescr…be formes and words of prayer, and of preaching, by their leiturgie and homilies, and other like spirituall jurisdiction, apperteyn…ng to Chr…st alone, thus are they very Antichr…sts; and to …ther with their exorbitant usurped. power, ought vtterly to be abolished out of all Chri…t…an churches.
Neyther, that ruling power of Christ, which the P…ritans (whereby I supp…se, Mr Bern. meaneth the Christian reforme… churches in other coū tries,) say is in the Presbitery; doe we say, is in the multitude for we acknowledge Christ to hauehave ordeyned a *1 Tim 4, 14Presbit…ry; or Eldership, and that in ‡Tit. 1.5. 2 Co, 12, 28. Act, 14 23.every church, for ”1 Tim 5, 17to teach and rule them by his own word and lawes, vntounto whome all the multitude, the members. the Sain…ts ought to †Heb 13, 17 1 Pet. 5.5obey and submit themsel…es, as the scriptures teach And for the particular branches of this 6. Error that Mr Bernard chargeth vsus with, That the power of Christ, that is, authority to pr…ach, belongeth to the whole church, ye… to every one of them, &c. we deny it, a… he setts it do…n, and for the help of t…e reader whome he abuseth, will distinctly set down our opinion.
The word of God, is giuen to all and every member of the Church to read, and exercise priuately: but publickly in the Church there is a double vse, 1 in prophesie, and 2 in office, as the Apostle *Rom 12, 6 7·distinguisheth. The office of teaching is layd vponupon some few chosen & ordeyned therevnto Into this office may no man intrude, or vsurp it, without a lawfull calling. This we hauehave long since published, as a pa…t of our faith Confess, Art. 19.20.21. Teaching in way of prophesie, (which the Apostle treateth of 1 Cor, 14) is absolutely vsus lawfull ‡1 Cor. 14 34.for all women in th… church, but men, so many as hauehave the gift and ability from God, may … 31, 24all pro…hesie one by one, of which poynt see our Con…ss Art 34. And this is that we hold concerning preaching, which whether it be an error and Mr Bern. hath so proued it, let the indifferent reader judge.
For the second poynt, authority to administer the sacraments, that it sho…ld belong to eueryevery one of th… church; we vtterly deney; and maruell at Mr Bernards vnconscionable dealing with vsus, for in o…r Confession he co…ld not but see, (vnlesse he winked,) this plainely expressed, *Art. 34.no sacraments to be administred vntill the Pastors or Teachers be chosen and ordeyned int… …heir office.
The third and last, that eueryevery one hath authority to execute the censures of the church we also deny; but hold, that eueryevery member hath authority to ‡Luk 17.3reb…ke h…s brother for sinne, and if he repent to forgiue him, if not, to take w…tne…es; if yet he repent not, to tel it ”Mat. 18.15.16.17.to the church, which church hath Christs †1 Cors. 4 12, 13.power to iudge all within the same, and cast out from among them all wicked men: Now that every one hath not this power, nor yet any member or members apart, we hauehave plainly signified in our Con…ssi…n, Art. 24. If this be an error in Mr Bernards account, let him by the scriptures confute it, not onelyonly in vsus but in a principall minister of his own ch…rch D, F…lk, who hath written *Treatise of Popes pard. part. 2. c 3,that the keyes of the kingdome of h…auen whatsoeuer they are; be committed to the whol church, and not to one p…sō only, as C…rian, Augustine, Chrysostome, Ierome, and al the ancient Doctors agrea…ly o…ly to the scriptures doe confesse.
So then for popular gouernment, (which Mr Bern. would traduce vsus by,) we hold it not, we approue it not, for if the multitude gouern, then who shalbe gouerned? Christian liberty (which ‡1 Cor. 7.23 Gal 5.1all hauehave) is one thing, the raynes of gouernment (which ”1 Cor. 12 28.some hauehave) is another thing. Now how farr t…e peoples right and liberty and benefit thereby eytendeth, would require a larged scourse to shew, which is not my purpose here. It is ye no…gh to mainfest the iniquity of this aduersary who would father such err…rs on vsus, dealing like his predecessors the Papists, who in this weise re…roched the Protestants, as labouring †Apolog of the church of Engl. 1. part c, 2 divis. 7.to bring all things vnderunder the rule of the rash vnconstant people and vnlearned multitude; and to make the church *Suruey of the new relig, 1 book, 3 chap.democraticall and popular, because every one of the people by his priuate spirit, is supreme iudge and head in matters of religion.
Our different judgement and practise from the church of Engl. wher all …y men as they call them, are forbidden all speaking or expounding of the word in the publik assemblies, and where a Bishop, Chancellor, or Commissary, hath power to excommunicate by a Latin writ &c. Our difference also and dislike of the Presbyteries practise, whereby people are excluded, and depriued of a great part of their Christian liberty and benefit thereby, is in other books ‡See mōng other. the Discouery of the false church; pag 165. & forward. Apology against the Oxford DD. pag. 60 &c.largely treated of, with scriptures & reasons many, which M, Bern. neyther orderly handleth, nor soundly confuteth, as the wise reader may see; but ignorantly and confusedly shuffleth them ouer; running into by matters, and vniust calumniations. I will end therefore with the words of one of his fellow ministers, who touching this poynt of Church gouernment writeth much more soundly then by Mr. Bern. in his blindenes, hath done, Mr Iacob I mean, which sayth, aNecess. of re…orm, pag 28.It is childish, and without all wit, to cry out aganst vsus …us our adue… saries doe▪ Popularity, Anarchie &c. for our so▪ wel grounded and so approued an assertion.
7 Error.That the sinne of one man publ…ckly and obstinately stood in, b…ing not reformed nor the offender cast out, …oth s… p…llute the whole congregation, that none may commu…cate with h… same in any of the holy …hings of God, (though it be a church r…ghtly con…ituted, till the party be excommun…cated.
Answer.I deney agayn this to be eyther our iudgement or practise Mr. Bern. sayth the form…r position is the ground of this; and so it seemeth, he c… lumniating vsus in the for…er, thou…ht he might doe likeweise in this. We professe and hauehave long since publ…shed, that bConfess. …, 3…,none is to separate for f…lts & corru…tiōs, which may & so long as the Church cōsist…th of m…rtall men will fall out and aris… among them; but by due order to s…k r…dresse th…reof
Now that eueryevery Chr…stian not onelyonly may b… tought to rebuke his neighbour for sinne, we ha…e playn lawes both …n the old Testament and the new Leuit. 19.17. Luk. 17.3. That sinners not repenting, are after the second admonition to be signified vntounto the church, is also Christs ordinance, Mat. 18, 15.17.
But what …f …he church will not cast him out? I answer; Synns are eyther con…rouertible or manifest. If controuertible and d…ubtf…ll; men ought cRom 15, 1 Phil, 3 15, 16. Eph, 4, 2, 3to bear one with anothers different judgement; if they doe not, but, any for this make a breach or separation, dHeb 10, 25they syn.
But if the sinne be manifest, as for example a man is conuict of adultery, blasphemy, theft or the like: and the church will not rebuke him nor cast him out, but suffer him obstinate and impenitent in his wickednes; and plead for him aga…nst such us call vponupon them for iudgem…nt: then are all such abettors of the wicked, sinners themselues; and that in a high degree, as th' Apostle noteth Rom. 1 31 the whole lump is leuened, 1 Cor. 5, 1, 6. &c. and now not that one mans sinne, but the sinne of them all, is that which polluteth them: for they fauour and iustify a wicked man more then God; therefore eIsa. 5, 20 23,woe is vntounto them, and Solomon sayth, He that sayth to the wicked, thou art righteous him shall the people curse, and the multitude shall abhorr him. Prou, 24 24
If M, Bern think the sinne is the lesse, because a church maynteyns it; he is much deceiued; evill, the more common it is▪ the worse …t is; because God is more dishonoured, and mens sowles more endangered.
If he think men should regard and reuerence the church in this case▪ the law teacheth every man not to follow fExo. 2…, 2the many (or, the mighty) to doe euill, nor agree in a controuersie to decline after many, and ouerthrow (the right.) The …round of all this is playn in Gods law, if any one of the people sinned against any of the commandements of the Lord, gLeu 4 (27 28. &c,and one shewed him his sinne which he had committed, he was to bring his sacrifice, a testification of his repentance. If a ver 2….23 &c,ruler sinned, or the high iverse. 3.priest himselfe, they were to doe likewise. If the whole kuerse. 13. &c.Congregation sinned, the like law was for them: God respected no persons; but if they that sinned were greater or moe in number, they were so farr from being sauoured, as they had the greater sacrifice inioyned them, a priuate man offred avers. 28.a shee-goat, a ruler a bvers 24,hee-goat, the high Priest, and the Congregation, a cve 3 & 14yong b…llock. These lawes were giuen to all sorts of persons, for all manner sinns‘ and the law was agayn repeated and stablished from that day forward throughout their generations, Num. 15.22.23. &c. But if any man despised this law, and sinned with a high hand, the same blasphemed the Lord, and was to be cut off from among his peo…le. Num. 15.30.31 Now further, that the whol congregation taking Part with wicked men in syn, after due admonition, are all defiled and subiect to like iudgement, we hauehave a playn example in the whole Tribe of Beniamin,dIudg, 19, where in Gibe…h one of their towns filthines was committed, the Tribe was called vponupon to deliuer eIudg. 20.13. &c.th…se wicked men to death, that evill might be put away from Israel, …t when they would not deliuer them, all the other tribes warred against that tr…be, and almost rooted out every man of the same. Likeweise the tr…bes of Israel in an other case, sayd to some of their brethren, fIosh. 22.18.20.seeing ye rebel to day against the Lord; euen tomorrow he wilbe wroth with all the Congregation of Israel. Did not Achan sinne, &c. and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel and this man alone perished not in his wickednes. What Mr Bern. seeth or how he readeth the scriptures I cannot tel; but if he knew the contagion of sinne or guilt of the same, he would neuer hauehave writien as he hath done Now where he pleadeth that men should not for the offender, refreyn the holy things of God, abh…rr the sacrifices &c. We grant it. The holy things are alwayes to be reuerenced, Gods house and sacrifices frequented, when we may without sinne But we deny such an assembly to be Gods church, as with a high hand sinneth, and blasphemeth the Lord. The sacrifice of the wicked is gProu. 21.27.an abomination. And it cannot be said that any holy thing is lawfully administred in such a society where all agree together to mayntein open iniquity, and doe despise the word of the Lord, calling them to repentance If they doe not thus, we hold it not lawfull to separate from them, nor in any weise at any time, till all holy and orderly meanes be vsed for their reclayming.
That eueryevery of their assemblies are false churches.8 Error.
This we hold indeed,Answer. being vnderstood of the ordinary cathedrall & parish assemblies of England, which all are by one line. For defense of these churches Mr Bern. refers the reader to an other treatise after, and so doe I to the answer of the same, following. Yet least he should seem …o say nothing, Mr Ber excepteth 1 That they hauehave no false head, for, they hold Iesus Christ. I answer, so might Ieroboam hauehave pleaded for himself & his people, that they had no false head, but h1 Kin. 12 28.the true God which brought them out of the Land of Aegypt. Yet were they a false church The Papists Papists and Anabaptists at this day, hold and professe Iesus Christ: yet such errors are among them, as Christ in deed is deneyed: the parishes of England professe him also, but such is their estate otherweise, that they hauehave him not truly for a head, prophet, priest, or king vntounto them; as befor apag. 74.is proued. But it is yenough for Mr Bernard to affirme without proofe: and correction with him is a bpag. 111.needfuller argument in this case t…ē i…struction For when the Priests li…s preserue not knowledge how should men be answered but by the gaole or gallowes?
2. The matter (sayth he) is not false: and to shew this he noteth a difference between No matter, true matter, and false matter. No matter are th…y which make no profession of Christ at all; as Iewes, Turks, and Pagans, True (visible) matter are all such as openly professe this mayn truth, that Iesus the sonne of Mary is the sonne of God▪ Christ the Lord, by whome onelyonly & alone they shalbe saued. And cpag 116.false matter is contrary to this true matter.
I answer; this false matter is very rawly set down, for being contrary to the former true, it may imply Iewes, and Turks, whome he made no matter: and then it confoundeth his own distinction. But if he mean that they which professe not Christ rightly and truely, as he setteth downe, are a false matter, then, say I; …t will euince the matter of their Churches to be false, seing there is not aright and true profession of Chr…st, made by their parishes▪ But Mr Ber. leauing out this word rightly & truly, tels vsus dpag 113.they all professe this fayth, as is apparent 1 by the doctrine of their church (vidz. that in the Harmony of Confessions,) 2 by the same publickly preached 3 by the same mainteyned by their lawes, writings and blood of holy martyrs. I answer, if all this were granted▪ yet will it not proue Mr Bernards purpose, for some may write and preach the truth, the Magistrate may establish it by law, and some may seal it with their blood; and yet not al the nation be a true matter for Christs church, except they also make l…ke profession Which that the parishes of England doe not, the profanenes of the multitudes shew. But least I be thought to speake of envy, let vsus hear the testimony of their own ministers and such as were no fauourers of vsus at all▪ as their malicious writings of vsus sheweth Mr Nichols esteemed a forward preacher among them▪ sayth, ePlea of the inn…ēt. p. 218. &c.We finde by great experience, (and I hauehave now fiue and twenty yeres obserued it,) that in those places where there is not preaching and priuate conferring of the Minister and the people; the most part hauehave as litle knowledge of God and of Christ, as Turks and Pagans. To confirme this, he giues vsus an example in his own flock For I hauehave been in a parish sayth he) of fowr hundred communicants, and maruelling that my preaching was so little regarded, I tooke vponupon me to conferre with eueryevery man and woman, before they receiued the communion. & I asked them of Christ, what he was in his person; what his office; how firme came into the world; what punishment for sinne; what becomes of our bodies being rotten in the graue and lastly whither it were possible for a man to liue so vprightly, that by wel doing he might winn heauen. In all the former questions, I scarse found ten in the hundred to hauehave any knowledge, but in the last question, scarse one, A sayer prof…ssion.but did affirme, that apag. …20.man might be saued▪ by his own wel doing, and that he trus…ed he did so liue, that by Gods grace he should obt…yn euerlasting life by ser…ing of God and god prayers &c. Now then, this being so, tell me I pr…y y…u (sayth Mr Ni…hols▪ first for Ath…isme, whether these be any bettor then A…h…is…s, whi…h know not Christ? And tell me I pray you Mr Bernard whether th… be a …rue matter, such as Christs church consisteth of? But you would …a… vsus beleeue the Bishops and Priests of Engl. are wondrous men; for i… …hey write books, or preach sermons to the people, their whole Dioceses and Parishes must needs be estemed conuerts and profelytes. Such effect & grace was neuer heard of before, since the world began. More absurd it is to say, that the good lawes of the Magistrate, doe make a profane idolatrous multitude, true professors: but most of all, that because some few were martyrs, therefore they that killed the martyrs, professe Christ truly. If these be not pregnant reasons, then M. Bernards book is little worth. 3. But he proceedeth and sayth, The visible form is not false; which is the vniting of vsus unto God, and one to another uisibly. This he would proue by 3, reasons 1 because the word is preached and offred to the people; 2 Because of the peoples open profession of their fayth, vntounto the doctrine, God working in them a will to receiue it. 3 because the Lords supper is in vse among them. Sundry scriptures are alleged to shew that thus the primitiue churches were planted and constituted; all which we grant; but when he comes to apply bpag. 121.these to themselues; he barely assumes, that thus is their case; neyther answering any reason of ours to the contrary, nor shewing any reason of his own, to confirme that which he sayth. And what cause in the world, what church is so bad; but may thus be pleaded for? He knowes wel, that we except, (and the visible estate of that church, their own monuments, records, complaints, &c. doe bear witnes with us,) that they were planted in this religion and profession by force of the Magistrates law; that multitudes are profane; that many thowsands want the preaching of the word; that they ar al compelled to come to church, be baptised, receiue the communion, and the like; and what profession the poor ignorant people make, is before manifested. If he would heare more of their profession, and subiection to the word and ministery, Mr. Nichols shewes it thus; cPlea of the innocēt pag, 246·How little hauehave they esteemed the godly and learned ministers! How content they be with simple and ignorant men! How hardly are they drawn to pay duties which law hath appoynted! How many quarrels they pick against painfull ministers! And how little reuerence they giuegive to any that are faithfull! How they follow their couetousnes and pleasures! How they fil al sorts of courts with brawles, foolish and wilfull strifes, and sutes, and demurres in law with murthers, whordomes▪ dronkennes, and all disorder. Loe this is the commendations of the professant people of the Church of Engl, whome Mr Bernard pleadeth for.
As for their constitution and vniting together into parishes▪ dioceses, pro…inces, and at last in to one nationall church with an Archbishop & his high court ouer all it is apag. 99,before shewed to be a R…mis… …t…o…, and antichristian, n…t iustifiable by the law or testament of Christ.
4. Lastly, the visi…le properties are (he sayth) not false …ut true, namely th…se, 1 Con…inuance in heari…g of the d…ct…ine of Christ receiued, and vsing of th… sacraments and prayer. 2 The hol…ing out of this truth an… … sacra…ents as … displ…ed, against the ene…y▪ 3 A care for the welfare of all, and eueryevery one for … and ech for o…her.
But all this build…ng is on a s…ndy ground: for their esta…e (as before is m…nif…sted▪ be…ng euill: the long…r they continew in it, the worse it is f…r them Cont…nuance to read …he seruice book, and homilies, to …rostitute t…e Sacra…ents to the profane, to administer them after a …opish m…nn…r, by a false m…n…ster…; these are the banners and ensignes of Antichrist▪ dis…layed …n al his a…emblies; that poor sowles hauehave cause to complayn a… in the Psalm, bPs. 4.4.they hauehave s…t vp th…i… banners for signes. As for the care of the wel…are of all, &c. which Mr. B…rn. boasteth of: let Mr. Nichols foresayd complaynt of the people on the one hand▪ and the Bishops, & Preists open neglect & contempt of the people on the other hand, shew what care they hauehave one of another. For how many sowles are miserably famished by dum, negligent, and non resident priests evill beasts and slow bellies. How many preachers are put out for not subscrib…ng and using the ceremonies, &c. These, that I g…ue no other instances, shew what care there is of mens sowless am… them; which he that commendeth, shewes himselfe carelesse what he speakes or writes.
9 Error.OVr 9. error is, that we say, Al th…r minist…rs are false ministers. Against this Mr Bernard allegeth for the truth of their ministery, that they are sent of Christ according to his ordinance in his church, as is manifested by th…, th…t th…y are quall…fi…d with good gifts, they are called by the church, & such also as d…e diligently, and faithfully preach, and so preach Christ as many th…reby doeth ar and bel…eue, euen confirming their calling by the blessed successe and eff…ct of th…i… lab…urs. Rom. 10.14.15. 1 Cor. 9.2.
Answer,First, if Mr Bernard would indeed hauehave refuted our error, if such it be he shoul… hauehave answered the reasons which in many writings we hauehave br…ught a…inst the…r min…stery B…t he found that, all too heauie.
The… for the reasons that …ms…lfe alleg…th, they are naked and without all co…firm…ti…n; such as Pa…ist…, Anabaptists or any other Antichristians might …llege for the…sel…es F…r, a Papist wil …oast as wel as he, that their Priests are qu…lifi… wi…h go…d gifts, called, by the church, doe deligently an… faithfully pre…ch, so as … h…r an… beleeue. B…t I will answer ech of …is part…c…l…r… Their q…alificatiō is wi…h Good g…fts, is no proffe of a lawful minist…ry; seing … many priuate men ha…e as good gifts as they; …vsurpers and intr…der… may al…o hauehave as excellent gifts, as lawfull officers: … Iesuites, S…mm…ries and ther instuments of Satan, are knowen to be as learned and well furnished with gifts, as Mr Bern. and his brethren. 4 Moreouer I deny that the principall ministers of England are qualified or able to execute their office; the Archbishops, Bishops Arch dea…ons, &c. that hauehave whole Dioceses and Prouinces vnderunder their charge cannot possibly performe the duty▪ of true ministers vntounto them. 5 And fi…lly a number of ignorant Sir Iohns can read their Leiturgie vntounto their paris…es; and hauehave no other good ministeriall quallity.
The second thing, their calling by the church; which afterward he expl…yneth th…s; apag. 141.bei…g examined, found fi…, and so are elect and ordeyned; this … vponupon the sands; for the church of England not being a true ch…rch of G…d, as is before manifested, hath no power from God to call and …rdeyn mi…isters▪ But besi…es this, I would fayn learne of Mr Bern. what Ch…ch it is that examined, elected, and ordeyned his Lords grace of Canterb…y, for Ar…hb…shop… then whether the same or some other ch…rch examined elected and ordeyned the Diocesan Bishops, the Deans the Archdeacons, and the rest of that Lordly priesthood, then what church ordeyned the parish Priests, and Deacons. These things if he dare vndertake to deal in, and bring to the triall: will be found more agreable to the Canons of the Pope, then to the testament of Christ.
Their office it selfe, Mr Bern. balketh quite, and tels vsus not what functions this pompous clergie hauehave to execute, yet is it most needfull to be known, for how els shall men discerne their administration? To begin… therefore with his Arch Lord of Cant. the Angel of the church of Engl. what office …ath …e to execute, of a Pastor; or of a Pope? If he be Pastor of this …rch, what be the inferior Bishops; pety Pastors, or Pety popes? what offices … the Suffragans, Chancell…rs, deanes, Archdeacons Commiss…s, …ffi…ials, D…ctors Proctors, and the residew of that army? what offices hauehave the Preb…ndaries, Canons, P…ti…anons, Chanters, Subchanters, and other like b…rds of the cloister? what offices hauehave the Bishops bay lifts the Priests, the half priests or Deacons, the Parsons, and Vicars, the Churchwardens, Clerks, & Sextius? Mr Bern. affirmeth that bpag. 131▪the Lord onelyonly ordeyneth offi…s in his church 1 Cor. 12. and that the church it selfe cannot doe this, but Iesus Christ both Lord and King. Now seing he hath ouerskipped in this book, al the stately offices that are in his church: let him in his next shew (if he can) the offices that Christ in his testament hath appoynted this troup of horsemen and charrets vntounto.
Now for their administration, he telleth cpag. 142.vsus, they preach the true doctrine or Christ, administer the sacraments, performe their office faithfully, and liue c…ns…i…nably, and Christ doth assist such graciously in conuerting soules, and …h… pe…ple doe approue of them.
Fayr words, and such as it seemeth Mr Bern. useth to feeed his flock with: but if one deny that thus it is, he must tary for proof, till an other treatise come forth; it was yenough in this, to affirme it so to be; and for his Lords grace to confirme it. Wel, to let passe the multitude of compl…ints and testimonies to the contrary in their own books, let him shew how it is possible for the Archbishop of the church of Engl. or the inferior Bishops, to preach and performe their office faithfully, vntounto so many hundreds of parishes, & thowsands of people, as are vnderunder their charge. Let the infinite number of soules that are famished vnderunder them speake, how often their Chief-shepheard of Cant hauehave fed them with the word and sacraments, (vnlesse perhaps he hath blessed some of their youthes with the Sacrament of Confirmation;) how many of their soules he hath conuerted, yea let them say whether euer he saw their face…? As for the Bishops Deputies the paris…h priests, many of them are dumb by nature, and cannot preach; many are made dumb by their spirituall Lords power, and silenced for disobed…ence; so preaching wexeth geazon, and people perish for want of Instruction. In the mean tyme, this painful Clergie feedeth the Lay weekly, with their mattings, Euensong, and Homilies; and sometimes in a year with sermon, and reading the Bishops canons. They discipline their notorious sinners, with reading curses and Comminations out of the pulpit, till the Lent penance (which is much to be wished) be restored agayn: they solemnize the holy dayes of Angels and of Saincts; they giuegive ech man the sacrament at Easter deuoutly vponupon his knees, they baptise with water, and a signe of the crosse in the a…er; they wed their parishioners with a ring, & teach the man to worship his wife, in the name of the Father and of the Son & of the holy Ghost: they church the women after childbirth: they visi… the sick, and absolue him from all his sinns, and howsel him with a Communion: and last of all, they bury the dead, in sure and certayn hope of resurrection to eternall life. And this is yenough for priests to doe in the country parishes; but in the Cathedrall churches, where Bishops, Deanes; and other great Doctors do reside; there the Queriste…s and Organ-pipes, make sweeter melody. Mr. Bern. confesseth apag, 121.that the Lord onelyonly prescribes the duties to be done in eueryevery distinct …ffice: now he that knowes not these dutiess to belong to Christs ministers, or these works to be a faythfull performance of ministeriall office, let him read Mr Bernards book, for there bpag, 139.140.he hath quoted many scriptures, the end of all which is to raise cpag, 141,an euident proof of the truth of their ministery and administration; as if one should cite the second commandement, for to vphold idolatrie.
The effects of their administration, in conuerting sowles, is but a vayne boast, as their idolatrous estate, with the lamentable ignorance and profanenes of the people every where sheweth The reasons brought by others (for Mr Bern bringeth none,) to perswade such effects, are before in this dpag 54. &c.treatise answered.. It maketh also against the estate of this church and ministery; for if these preachers hauehave conuerted and wrought faith in some of their hearers, then it followeth that before that conuersion they were infidels, yet were they of the church and had this ministery set ouer them, as all men know. Which how it can stand with the r…les of Gods word, hath neuer yet bene shewed. The example which Mr Bern. allegeth of th' Apostle 1 Cor, 9.1.2. helpeth him nothing: For Apostles were sent Ma… 28.19,to conuert heathens, but Pastors are set for to b1 P…t …, 1 Act. …0.28feed conuerted Christians. And the Priests of England challenge to be Pastors, I ween, and not Apostles. Agayn the work and seal of Pauls Apostleship was seen in Corinth, by c2 Cor, 6, 4 &c.separating the beleeuers from infidels; and g…ther…ng the d1 Cor 1.2Saints onelyonly into the communion of the church, vnderunder the officers e… Cor. 12gi…en of Christ but in England the vnb…leeuers and wicked, were receiued and are reteyned in the church. So that Mr. Bern. is but a …alse Apostle (as his work shewes) if he be any at all. But in the end he tels vsus fpag. 144.we forget to iustifie the lawfulnes of our own ministers, who are made …i…ist…rs …y s…ch as are no ministers, contrary to the constant practise of the church of God, from the dayes of Adam hitherto. &c. In which dispute, Mr. Bern. teacheth playn apostasie from the Gospell unto Poperie, from wh…ch he deriueth the min…stery of his church of Engl. For seing all the examples that he allegeth from scriptures, are of Diuine persons and approued ministers of the true church; and comming gpag. 145.to his church of England, he fetcheth her ministery out of the Popish church and from the Prelates thereof, it cannot be (if his last words agree with his first) but the po…ish church is a true church, and their prelates true ministers. Otherweise h…s reasoning is absurd, to say, God ordeyned Adam, Moses odeyned Aaron; Christ ordeyned the Apostles; the Apostles ordeyned orther m…nisters in churches: therefore Antichrist of Rome, his synago…ue of Satan, & h…s eldest son…es the Prelates, must or may ordeyn mini…ters in the church of Christ. If this be a good consequence let al men iudge: if …s it be not, then Mr. Bern. holdeth the popish church, and the …opish ministers true ministers; and so himselfe and his church of England must needs be schismatiks for leauing that church of Rome. When he hath cleared himselfe of this his absurd doctrine, then (if he cannot see that the church of Christ hath power to ordeyn her own ministers) it shalbe shewed h…m by the scriptures, T…ll then, what should we do folowing of a wauering reed, whome we cannot tell by his writing, whether he be Papist or Protestant. And that the reader may see into what an intricate Labyr…nth the ministers of England hauehave brought themselues, about this matter of their ministery, by writing as they hauehave do… both of the Papists and of us: I will set down a Papist argument against them: from which how handsomely they can defend themselues, I would fayn see. There came out, in anno 1602 a book called A detection of diuers notable vntruthes &c. wherein the author hauing to deal wit Mr S… cliff, who as (he sayth) had reasoned thus, hIn his chalenge, p: 85.The true church is a societie of faithfull people vnderunder lawfull Pastors &c But the Church of Rome hath long wanted true Pastors and Bishops; for the Romish Bishops hauehave no authority …r missiō but frō the Pope, to whome also they swear feally: but he hath no authority to send them or ordeyn them, …eing himselfe no Bishop, &c. This argumēt of Mr Sutcliffs the Papist idetestion, &c. p. 100.retorteth v…ō thē thus. The true church of Christ hath alwayes true Pastors and Bishops: but the English Congregation wanteth true Priests and Bishops: Therefore the English congreagation … not the true church of Christ. The fi…st proposition (sayth the Papist) he must not deny, being of his own making, &c. The 2, proposition is apparant according to Mr Sutcliffs diuinity. For most certaine it is, that their first Bishops receiued their orders and consecration from our catholik Bishops, as his brother Bel confesseth, Suruey. pag. 201. And the thing it selfe speaketh: seing when L… ther begun, there was not any protestant Bishop or Priest &c. And if Mr Sut…liffe dare deny that their Bishops were c…ns…cratedl… ours, then let him name who they were that did lay hands vponupon Mr Parker the first of Cant. that deriued not their mission authority and consecration from the Bishop of Rome. Certayn it is, th…t …yther none at all can be named, or els none b…sides: therefore if our Bishops be no Bishops, then doth it follow most euidently, that all the English Bishops, be no Bishops at al, as hauing no other cōsecratiō then from them: And if our English Prelates be no true Bishops, then surely n…yther be they Pri…sts or Minis…ers or Deacons, that be ordeyned by them, and so consequently the congregation of E…g…, by Mr Sutcliffs argumēt, not th… tru church of Christ. This is the Catholi…s argument and plea: which how Mr Bern. or his brethren will wel answer, and stand also to that which they hauehave written against vsus; I cannot tel.
Finally, against that often boasting of the work and effect of the ministery of Engl, I will oppose a testimony of one of their chief mi…isters, yet our professed aduersary, that it cannot be thought he was partial for vsus at all. Mr Gifford is the man that thus hath aDialogue between a Papist & a protestāt: in the Epistle dedicatory:written. Som… d…e wonder how it should come to passe; that among vsus there should be so many which being borne since the gospell was restored in this land are so zealously addicted unto Popery, which th…y neuer did know. and so utter enemies to the Gospel which they hear. But if they weigh the causes of this deadly mischeef, they will cease wondring at that, and rather wonder that there be no more. For how can it b… so long as there be so many abuses in the ministery, but that many shall stumble and loath the Gospell. For from thence as it is manifest, the cheife cause of this euill doth spring. True it is that our ministery doth fight against them but yet in such sort, that it doth greatly increase them. Seeming and pretending to tread vponupon those cockatrise eggs, for to breake them, and so …o destroy utterly th… viperous generation: when as indeed they sit vponupon them, and so hatch the bro…ds of this euill kinde, and bring them forth in great plenty. For behold a number cry out against popery, and proclaym vtter defiance in speach: but their doings are such, that for eueryevery one which they conuert to the g…spel, they cause an hundred to reuolt, to be hardned in their errors, or to fall into flat Atheisme. While many cōtrary to the professiō w…ich they made when they entred, setting aside the care of sowles, not esteeming nor regarding what become of them, studie most how to clime high, and to satisfy their ambitious desire of honour: taking togither liuings couetously and greedily: not caring who feed the flock, so they may …me by the fleese, Moreouer the door hath been opened also …o let into the church … and swarme of such, as are more like the priests of Ieroboam, then minister… of the gospell: not onelyonly unlearned idols, which hauehave mouthes and speake n…t; which being weary of their occupations, and couet to liue easily, and to that end are entred; but also riotous, dicers, gamesters, quaffers, quarrellers, adulterers and such like. If the matter were secret I should doe amisse to make it manifest; but when it is open in the sight and view of all men, who can complayn iustlie when it is spoken of? Let this record of Mr G…ffords, for the effect of their administration and their good quallities besides, togither with Mr Bernards former doctrine for their first calling and ordination by the popish prelates; shew whether it be not like, that this ministery will ere long make accord with the mother church of Rome that hatched it, and for whom it againe hatcheth cockatrices eggs.
The tenth error that we should hold is, 10 Errorthat their worship (in Engl.) is a false worship. To proue this to be an error, Mr Bern. bringeth these reasons.
1. That they worship no false God.
I answer.Answer. Neyther did Ieroboam the son of Neba… who made Israel to syn: yet vsed he a false worship 1 King. 12.
2. That they worship the true God with no false worship; for they hauehave the true word preached, the true sacraments, and their prayers are such as ma… be warranted by the word. &c.
I answer, this is but taking for granted, that which he should proue; for he knowes well that we deney th…se things, and by many reasons in sundry bookes (none of which Mr Bern. answereth) hauehave disproued their preaching, ministring of Sacraments, booke prayer &c. Seing he will answer nothing before written by vsus, let him in his next booke, prooue that the Apocrypha scriptures and homily bookes, which they read in Gods worship are his true word; that the sacraments which the vnpreaching priests minister to their profane parishioners by their popish leitourgie, are true sacraments; let him approue by Gods word the obseruation of all their holy dayes, fasting dayes, with their prescript peculiar seruice; briefly, let him shew warrant for his seruice book, the making and vse thereof with all the popish contents therein. These are strange incense, new forgeries of their own, neuer appoynted by Christ or his Apostles: wherefore we doubt not to affirme their worship to be false, euen an humane inuention. With these things Mr Bern. medle…h not, but bringeth proof for other matters, which we neuer denyed; and referreth vsus to an after treatise. which now next followeth to be answered. Yet ere he leaueth us, he will utter all his hart, and from his inner store powreth out against vsus 12. errors moe, wh…ch he will not spend time (he saith) in con…ut…tion of, they are so absurd and false; being also (as he thinketh) con…ured by the former. Though nothing need be answered where no shew of proof is made: yet to satisfy the reader and shew him the vanity of this aduersary, I will briefly touch them all; and they be these.
1 That their congregations, as they stand, are all and eueryevery of them vncapable before God to chuse them ministers, though they desire the meanes of saluation.
Al such as desire the means of saluation in what congregations soeuer, hauehave,Aswner. ower and liberty from God to separate from all euill, and ioyne togither in good, and so to enioy Gods blessings in his ministery, or any other part of the Gos…el But, we hold that no false church, hath power from God to chuse ministers: which he hath ordeyned onelyonly for true churches. 1 Cor. 12.28. E…h. 4, 12 R…m. 12.4, 5 &c. & we wonder with what face any Christian can say otherweise. If Mr Bern. make the error to be in holding them false churches; then is it the same with the 8. error before answered, and is here b…t idly of him repeated.
2. That God in their best assembli…s, is worshipped after a false manner.
Answer.An other idle repetition of that which before he made our Tenth error, which there was answered.
3. That baptisme is not administred into the fayth of Christ simply, but into the fayth of Bishops, and Church of Engl.
Answer.This I think is Mr Bernards vncharitable collection, not our Position. Though we hold baptisme among them to be administred neyther by a true minister nor after a lawfull manner, but according to their own prescript Leitourgie and to the seed of the w…cked, with great dishonour of the precious blood of Christ; and therefore to be no true seal of Gods couenant vntounto them.
4. That their faith and repentance is a false faith, and a false repentance.
Answer.Faithfulnes and repentance is desired in Mr Bernard himselfe, who careth not to calumniate us We professe to iudge no secret things such as true faith and repentance are. We are perswaded many in true churches may hauehave a false fayth and a false repentance, because there are many hypocrite… also that many in false churches may hauehave true faith and repentance, for there are Gods elect But who these are on both sides, we leaue vntounto God that knowes them. Of Mr Bernards church this is that we say, they walke not in the true fayth, they bring not forth fruites of tr…e repentance, in the publick estate wherein they stand.
5. That th…ir Ministers conuerting men to God there, doe it not as Pastors but as Teachers.Answer.
This distinction which Mr Bern. skoffeth at▪ must rest, skoff and all, in his own bosome, till he bring out another father. I know not who begat it.
6. That their church standeth in an adultrous estate. A strange assertion (sayth Mr Bern.) what idol worship we?
Answer.False worship is spirituall adultery Ier. 3. If Mr Bern. were not a stranger in Christ fold, he would so acknowledge it, and not count it our errour. If he say the error is in holding their worship to be false; then say I, he repeteth now the third time, that which before he made our 10. & agayn our second Errors, and if he goe forward thus, he may multiply it to a thowsand, and teach us new Arithmetik. If he would know what idol he worships! let him take his Ordinary for one among many, who standeth for a spirituall Lord ouer many churches, vsur…ing Christs place: to him doth Mr Bern. with his flock, bow and stoup. An other idol he may …nde in his pue.
7. That we cannot say certaynly by any warrant of Gods word, that any of them hath eyther faith or fear of God.
A hard speech, If that man whome he mentioneth in the margine,Answ. so sayd; let not one mans word be imputed to our common cause He may see it otherwise minded by others of us, before in this treatise pag. 39 and our Apolog. pag. 91.92.
8. That n…ne of their ministers may be heard.
Not heard in the execution of their ministery, for it is of Antichrist.Answ. Christs sheep hear his voyce, not a strangers Ioh, 10 All Antichrists ministers are strangers. So are all ministers of eueryevery false Church. Such their church and ministery hath bene proued to be in many treatises.
9, That it is not lawfull to ioyne in prayer with any of them,
As a false church generally, so the members thereof particularly,Answ. may not be communicated with in spirituall actions. Such we hold, & hauehave proued their church to be. Til Mr Bern. take away this foundation, he fighte…h but with shadowes; and sheweth his ignorance in the communion of the Saincts.
10. That ministers may not celebrate mariage nor bury the dead.
There wanteth a third thing to make vp the error,Answ. Churching of women These and the l…ke ministerial functions, we know the Romish Antichrist layeth on his priests, and the Prelates of England on theirs: But in Christs testament we finde no such duties imposed vponupon his ministery Let Mr. Ber therefore bury his dead still; for he will quicken but a few by his popish doctrine.
11, That ministers should onelyonly liue of voluntary contribution, and not eyther of set stipends or tithes.
Against this Mr Bern. allegeth Gods wisdome who allowed a setled maintenance under the law: and there is nothing against it in the Gospel,
God in wisdome appoynted tithes, first fruites & other particulars for his Prirsts liuelihod ūder the law:Answ. Christ in wisdom appoynt…th nōe such for his ministers under the gospell; but Pope Paschalis about 827 yeares after Christ aQu 19. ca. 1. Decima… a populo.decreed that tithes should be giuen to the priests. This Popes wisdome Mr Ber. preferreth before Christs. It cannot be deneyed but tithes were a part of the Law, and that Chris… abolished the legal Priesthood; whervpon it followeth by the playn doctrine of the Gospel, if the priesthood be changed, then of necessity must there be a change of the law. Heb. 7.12. But Mr Bern, had rather any shadow should be done away then this of Tithes, for it hath much substance with it. and there be moe siluersmithes of Demetrius minde which sayd, aAct 19.15Siroye know, that by this craft we hauehave our goods. But what sayth one of their own ancient Martyrs against Mr Bernards predecessors. bActs and Monumēts, Wiliā Thor in his testament.This Priesthood is blown so high and borne vp in pride and vayne glory of their estate and dignity, and so blinded with worldly couetousnes, that th…y disdayne to follow Christ in uery meeknes and wilfull pouerty, liuing holily, and preaching Gods word truely freely and continually, taking th…ir liuelihood at the freewil of the People; of their pure almose, wher and when they suffice not for their true and busy preaching to get their sustenance with their hands To this true sentence grounded on Christs own l…uing, and teaching of his Apostles, these foresayd worldly and fleshly priests, wil not consent effect ally, &c. If this martyr were now aliue, the Clerg…e of England would sooner condemn him for a Brownist then appro…e of his doctrine; albeit now that he is dead, they garnish his toomb.
12. That their churches ought to be raced down, and not to be jmployed to the true worship of God.
Answ.To repayr this ruine, M. Bernard telleth us; there is great difference between Antichristianisme and Paganisme. He might tel us also there is great difference between Paganisme & Paganisme, some Pagans worshipp…ng the true cAct 17.23God ignorantly; some the Sun and Moon and host of heauen, some the Diuil himselfe. But what were this to the purpose? The thing he should shew is that God more estemeth fauoureth aloweth or tolerateth antichrists idol howses, then of the Pagans. Till he doe this, we know that by Gods word and in his account, as Pagans d1 Cor, 10 20.worship Diuils, so Antichristians eReu 9 20, & 16, 14. and 18.2.worship diu…ls Let men feign to themselues what difference they l…st. But it must be proued (sayth Mr Bern.) that our churches were built by Antichrist. First God in his law required no such proof, when he commanded utterly to destroy al the places wherein the nations which Israel should possesse serued their Gods;fDeut. 12.2.3. whether it were in the groue which Abraham himselfe had gGen, 21, 33,planted, or on the altars which he had hGen 12, 7 8. &, 13, 4 &c,builded; the law of God made no inquiry Secondly, If M, Bern. will seek the records of his temples, he may find many to hauehave been builded by Papists, if he will grant that they be Antichristians: or if he will goe f…rther, he may finde some of them builded by heathens, and dedicated to Diuils. But though the Records sayd nothing, yet the form and shape of these masse howses, proclayme them to be the uery shrines of idols, and lyable to the Curse.
Thus are we come to an end with M, Bernard; passing by his impertinent discourses, which in his rouing he ran into: leauing him also for his unchristian reproches, and iniurious calumniations, to the mercy or iudgment of the Lord, who iIude vers. 14.15.behold commeth with ten thows…nds of his Saincts to giuegive iudgment against all men, and to rebuke all the vngodly among them, of all their wicked deeds which they hauehave wickedly committed, and of all their cru…l speakings, which wicked sinners hauehave spoke… against him.