A Defense of the Answer Made Unto Nine Questions, Chapter 14
CHAP. XIIII.
Poſition 5.
THat the power of excommunication is ſo in the body of the Church, that what the major part ſhall allow muſt bee done, though the Paſtors and Governors, and the reſt of the aſſembly be of another mind, and that peradventure upon more ſubſtantiall reaſons.
Reply. This queſtion is much miſtaken, for the demand is not, Whether in the Congregation matters ſhould be carried by number of votes againſt God, as you interpret the poſition, but whether the power of excommunication ſo lie in the body of the Congregation as that ſentence muſt proceed in externo foro, according to the vote and determination of the major part, and ſo in admiſſions of members, &c. and though they have no power againſt God, but for God, yet in execution of that power they may bee divided in judgement, and one part muſt err…. Now hence the queſtion is moved, Whether the power bee ſo in the people, that what the major part determine muſt ſtand.
Anſw. If our whole anſwer had been attended unto, it is ſo cleare and full, that it could not with any ſhew of reaſon bee ſubject to ſuch a miſtake: To omit the firſt part of our anſwer affirmatively, wherein wee cite Mr. Parker as conſenting with him. In the ſecond part to the poſition as ſtated, our anſwer is plainely negative, that excommunication is not ſo ſeated, neither ought to bee ſo in any of the Churches of the Lord Jeſus. What followes is our reaſon grounded upon the laſt clauſe of the poſition, becauſe Churches ought to carry things not by number of votes againſt God (as this poſition implies) but by ſtrength of Rule and Reaſon according to God, and for edification, 2 Cor. 13.8. 2 Cor. 10.8. Now let any judge whether the poſition doth not imply ſuch an abſurdity ſo oft as things ſhould bee carried by the major vote againſt the Officers, and the reſt having better Reaſons, and therefore wee are apt to think that if the learned author had been ſo ready to embrace any ſyllable that lends to diſlodge theſe thoughts of us as leaning to ſeparation, hee would have beleeved our plaine negation of this poſition, which indeed is according to our conſtant practiſe never following the major part of votes againſt the Officers, but counting it the duty of the Officers in ſuch caſes either to ſatisfie the conſciences of the major part (or leſſer) by the rule of the word, or to yeeld not to the vote but reaſons if they bee ſtranger; or to ſuſpend the buſineſſe, and referre to the counſell of other Churches, if they cannot agree but a diviſion ariſe according to the patterne, Act. 15.
Reply. Amongſt them that hold the power of the Keyes to bee given to the Church, ſome (as Fenner, Parker, I. D.) diſtinguiſh between the power itſelfe which they give to the Church, and the execution which they confine to the Presbytery, others give the power of the Keyes with the exerciſe thereof to the whole body of the Church; or if in the diſpenſation they attribute any thing to the Officers, it is but as ſervants of the Church from whom they derive their authority, and here lies the ſtone at which the Separation ſtumble, and which wee conceive to bee your judgement and practiſe, wherein wee required your plaine anſwer, but have received no ſatisfaction. You referre us to Mr. Parkers Reaſons to prove the power of the Keyes belong to the whole Church, who are of farre differing judgement from him in the point it ſelfe, and if your judgement and practiſe bee as the Separation (as wee feare) you diſſent from him and wee from you in theſe conſiderations.
Anſw. Wee are ſorry to ſee this Reverend man of God ſo ſtrongly poſſeſſed with a prejudicate opinion and feare of our concurrence with the Separation: (upon what grounds it is not ſaid, nor can wee apprehend) That neither our flat negation of the poſition, nor our reference to Mr. Parker as concurring with him, ſhould give him any ſatisfaction to the contrary. But if that bee the judgement, and practiſe of the Separation which is here imputed unto them, viz. That the power and exerciſe of the Keys is in the body of the Church, and what the Officers doe therein is but as ſervants of the Church from whom they derive their authority; if our profeſſion may bee of any uſe to ſatisfie, wee doe freely, and heartily profeſſe to the contrary: affirming that the authoritative power of tranſacting all things in the Church, is in the hands of the Officers who miniſter in the name and power of Chriſt to and over the Church, and that the power or liberty of the community whereby they may and ought to concurre with their guides, ſo long as they rule in the Lord, is to bee carried in a way of obedience unto them, and when upon juſt cauſe they diſſent from them, ſtill they are to walke reſpectfully towards them, and wee thinke our brethren are not ignorant that Mr. Parker and Fenner give as much to the Church in excommunication, as wee have pleaded for in any of our publique writings. But ſeeing wee are led by this learned author from this particular queſtion about excommunication to that beaten controverſie of the power of the Keyes in generall, and the firſt ſubject thereof, whereby wee are forced to declare our ſelves herein; wee ſhall briefly gleane up ſome few of our ſcattered apprehenſions, as may moſt concerne the caſe in hand.
1 There are divers Keyes that are diverſly diſtributed to ſeverall ſubjects in reſpect of execution, and therefore the queſtion ſhould have beene firſt ſtated: and what Keyes are denied to the people and appropriated to the Officers. And what to ſome Officers, not to others, ſhould have been ſhewed before Arguments were preſſed.
Pet Mart. de Excom. Loc. Com.2 The ſtate of the Church being mixed of an Ariſtocracy to which belongs Office, and Democracy to which belongs priviledge; hence the power of the Keyes is twofold. 1 *Officiall.Officiall power. 2 Fraternall. The firſt belonging to the guides of the Church, the other to the fraternity thereof.
3 The officiall power of the Keyes is a power to act with authority in the name of Chriſt miniſterially in opening and ſhutting, binding and looſing, &c. In reſpect of which Office (while the Miniſter acts according to the will of Chriſt) he is over the Church in things properly Eccleſiaſticall, becauſe hee ſtands in the roome of Chriſt, and comes in his name, and hence in thoſe Church acts which are not proper to him, but common in ſome caſes to the fraternitie, yet there is an office-authority upon them, which is not upon the like acts materially done by others. Ex. gr. Any brother may and ought to exhort and rebuke, 1 Theſ. 5.14. Heb. 3.13. Titus a Miniſter is exhorted to doe the ſame thing, but with all authority, Titus 2.15. ſome able and gifted, though not in Office, may occaſionally open and apply the word, yet not with an Office-authority. But an Officer preacheth as an Ambaſſadour of Chriſt, 2 Cor. 5. So alſo in admiſſion of members, and caſting out of offenders (wherein though the fraternity have a power whether in conſenting or otherwiſe) yet they act obedientially in reſpect of their guides, declaring the rule, going before them in example, and commanding them (if need bee) in the name of Chriſt to doe his pleaſure. But the Officers act in theſe things in the name and authority of him in whoſe roome they ſtand, and hence wee thinke that in caſe the fraternity without Officers ſhould caſt out any, yet it is not altogether the ſame with that which may bee diſpenſed by the Officers thereof, it being no officiall act.
2 Fraternall power (in publike Church acts) is a joynt power of liberty or priviledge (in ſome ſenſe, & in ſome caſes) to open, & ſhut, which power is not in any one or more ſeverally; but in the whole joyntly, for as they have power to combine, and ſo to receive others into the communion, ſo by like reaſon to ſhut out offenders from their communion; but thus they do fraternally, not officially: and as they have ſuch a power of election of Officers to them, ſo they have alſo a fraternall power (due order being attended) to ſhut them out (when there is juſt cauſe) according to the common received rule, Cujus eſt inſtituere, ejuſdem eſt & deſtituere.
Theſe things which might bee more fully explained and confirmed, wee have onelyonly briefly ſet downe both to waſh off the blot of popular Government from the wayes of Chriſt, as if all authority were taken from the Miniſters, or nothing left them but to diſpenſe the ſeales, and in all other things to …it meerely as a moderator in the Churches of Chriſt, which wee utterly diſclaime.
And alſo to make way for our more cleare anſwer to what is objected here in the Reply: Wee grant therefore the firſt argument and the concluſion thereof thus farre, that the officiall power of the Keys was not given to the whole multitude, but onelyonly there is given to them a power to chooſe Officers, which Officers ſhould execute the ſame.
Reply. 2 If Chriſt gave this power to the community, was it from the beginning of the Church, or tooke it effect after the Church was planted? Not the firſt, for then the Apoſtles themſelves ſhould derive their power from the community, which they did not.
Anſw. This reaſon is anſwered before (ſo farre as concernes our tenent) in the ſecond conſideration, where it is alledged, to which wee referre the Reader; neither doe wee ſay the officiall power is ſo given to the community, but ſuch things as are here added, wee ſhall conſider ſo farre as concernes us.
Reply. The Apoſtles and other Governours were given of Chriſt to the Church as for their end, and all their authority was given unto them for the Church, as for the whole: but the authority it ſelfe was immediatly derived from Chriſt, and is not in the Church as the immediate ſubject, nor derived from the Church, but from Chriſt the King of the Church. The authority of Governour is given of Chriſt for a gift to the Church, but not a gift abſolute. That it may reſide in the power of the whole Church, but for a conditionall gift communicated to the Governours for the good of the whole. Parker, pol. lib. 3. cap. 8.
Anſw. 1 Concerning the power of the Apoſtles, and extraordinary Officers wee now diſpute not, it was anſwered before; and for the authority of other Officers, wee doe not affirme that it is derived from the Church, but from Chriſt for the good of the Church; but if the queſtion bee of the application of an Office, and the power of it to ſuch and ſuch perſons in the Church, wee would demand whether Chriſt doth this to ſuch a Paſtour and Teacher immediatly or mediatly: if immediatly, then their call is not (in this) different from Apoſtles, which Paul expreſly diſtinguiſheth Gal. 1.1. Paul was an Apoſtle, not of man, nor by man, but of God, and by Jeſus Chriſt; falſe Teachers are of man, and by man. True Paſtors as Thomas, Iohn, &c. are of God by man, and if Chriſt communicate this Office, and the authority annexed unto it mediatly by man, not immediatly, the queſtion is, Who is the ſubject of this power to call, and ſo to apply this office in the name of Chriſt to this or that perſon, John, Thomas, &c. Wee hold this fraternall miniſteriall power (under Chriſt) is in the Church, and ſo farre wee ſhall defend this poſition, and where-ever it be elſe placed it will be ſubject to all the abſurdities that are imputed to us. To the ſentence of Parker we anſwer, that the miſinterpreting one word of his ſentence doth pervert his whole meaning, his words are Pro dono conditionali ut Rectoribus communicetur, i. e. that the Church might not communicate that power to Officers, nor keepe it in her owne hand. Or that it might bee communicated from Chriſt by the Church. And this will appeare his meaning, and it agrees with that poſition hee holds ſo ſtrongly, that the Church is the firſt ſubject of the Keys.
Reply. After the Churches were eſtabliſhed, it tooke not effect, for it is no where found in Scripture that Chriſt firſt committed this power to the Apoſtles, and after to the community; the Miniſters and guides were immediately of Jeſus Chriſt from whom immediately they derive their power and authority, by whom they are ſet over their charge, in whoſe name they execute their Office, &c. Yea Paſtorſhip is the gift of Chriſt as well as Apoſtleſhip; and every Paſtor is not immediately called, but the office and order of Paſtors, the calling, authority and jurisdiction is immediately from Chriſt, not from the Church.
Anſw. Firſt, the power of the Keyes (in a right ſenſe given to the Church) tooke effect from the beginning in Chriſts inſtitution, and in the frequent practice of the Church, as is ſhewed before, and therefore this is needleſſe to bee proved, that it tooke effect after. Secondly, that Miniſters and guides were immediately from Chriſt, (if you meane ordinary officers) and that every Paſtour is not immediately called, ſeemes to be a contradiction: the places, Act. 28.8. Epheſ. 4 8. &c. doe not prove that all Officers are immedately from Chriſt, though they bee ſet in the Church by Chriſt and over the Church by the Holy Ghoſt, &c. This the Lord can doe, and doth doe by the meanes of his Church walking according to his rule and inſtitution, and therefore you muſt come at laſt home to our tenent, (as here you doe) that Paſtorſhip, the office, power, jurisdiction, &c. annexed to it, is immediately from Chriſt, viz. by his inſtitution in the Goſpel: but Paſtors every one that receive this office, hath it from Chriſt, but by his Church calling them to the ſame, and in the name of Chriſt applying it to them: and thus far we agree with you.
Reply. The Steward is appointed of the Maſter of the family alone, and hath all his authority from him. Every Embaſſador in the cauſe of his Embaſſage doth immediately depend upon him from whom he is ſent: but if the function, order and authority of Paſtors and Teachers bee immediately from Chriſt, then it is not received from the Church as the immediate receptacle.
Anſw. Anſw. Firſt, though Paſtors in reſpect of the exerciſe of their function diſpenſe the Word and other Myſteries of Chriſt as from him immediately, and ſo are fitly compared to Embaſſadors and Stewards, yet in the call of the one and other to that work there is a plaine diſſimilitude, the one being called Mediately, the other Immediately by their Maſters, and therefore in this caſe it proves nothing.
What doth this argument conclude? if onelyonly that the function and order is not from the Church as the firſt ſubject, we readily grant it; if the application of the office to ſuch a perſon, (ſo farre as may bee done by an outward call) it followes not at all, for the function and office may bee from Chriſt, and the application thereof by the Church.
Reply. Thus Proteſtant Divines diſpute againſt Papiſts, if Biſhops receive their power and authority of exerciſing immediately from Chriſt by Mandate, Miſſion and commiſſion from him, then not from the Pope, and ſo for Presbyters in regard of the Biſhop.
Anſw. The reaſon and ground of that diſpute is becauſe the Pope claimes a plenitude of power from Peter, whence all muſt …ee derived to all Biſhops, &c. bee they never ſo orderly choſen and ordained in their owne eſteeme, and ſo indeed uſurps the Prerogative of Chriſt the head of the Church. The like uſurpation i… its degree was in the Biſhops over Presbyters: But here the caſe is farre different, the Church claming no ſuch power, but onelyonly Miniſteriall in the outward call of officers according to his direction, and ſo the application of that office unto the perſons, which hath ſufficient ground of Scripture from Chriſt, and therefore we grant the concluſion. viz. That they derive not their power from the people, but from Chriſt: by meanes of the Church Miniſterially and inſtrumentally applying that office to them, whereunto Chriſt hath annexed that power. Laſtly the like argument may be objected againſt any other ſubject of this power you can or will ſuppoſe, even the Presbytery it ſelfe.
Reply. It is uſually obj…cted that the Church cannot convey what ſhe never had: but the people may elect their Paſtor.
Whereunto the anſwer is direct and plaine, nothing can give that it had not formally or vertually, unleſſe it give it as an inſtrument miniſtring to one that hath it, but ſo it may give what it never had, nor is capable of. A Steward may give all the offices in his Maſters houſe as miniſterially executing his Maſters pleaſure.
Anſw. This anſwer doth not ſatisfie, for wee cannot put off our old principles of Reaſon, that every inſtrument miniſtring to the principall cauſe doth Conferre vim ad effectum: and ſo farre, or in what ſenſe it gives any thing to the effect in that ſenſe, and ſo farre it muſt needs have vertually or formally the ſame in itſelfe. If a Conduit convey water miniſterially from the fountaine to the houſe, it hath water in ſuch a ſenſe, as it doth concurre to the effect: and ſo the Church cannot give the Keys to the Officers as an inſtrument of Chriſt, but it muſt be granted ſhee received them from Chriſt vertually to give them to the Officer. Secondly, for the inſtance; if it bee meant of a Steward giving the offices to ſuch perſons as his Maſter hath named thereunto, and he inſtals them into the ſame, the caſe is not alike yet, here hee muſt have ſome power and authority ſo to doe ſo that he hath theſe offices vertually in his hand, but if it be his Maſters will, he ſhall chooſe what perſons hee ſees fit according to rules given him, (which is the caſe here) then hee hath this power vertually in his hand.
Reply. Thirdly, if Eccleſiaſticall and ſpirituall power be in the multitude and community of the faithfull, the Church doth not onelyonly call, but make Officers out of power and vertue received into her ſelfe, and then ſhould the Church have a true Lordlike power in regard of her Miniſters.
Reply. Anſw. If there be any ſuch that hold the Church hath ſo the power of the Keyes in her ſelfe, as that ſhe may derive from her ſelfe authority to the Officers, let ſuch looke unto the concluſion; as for Mr. Robinſon, though wee doe not approve the ſentence you cite out of him, yet we doubt whether you doe not goe beyond his ſenſe & meaning: but according to our ſenſe of this poſition before layd downe, neither this abſurdity of Lordſhip over the Officers, nor any others that are inſtanced in, under this reaſon doe at all follow; and they may bee as ſtrongly urged againſt the Presbyteries, Claſſes, Synods, Catholick Church, or any ſubject of the Keyes that can be named: And the objection, viz. That God will have the Church chooſe Officers to execute the power committed to her, is ſo anſwered in the ſame page, as will ſerve us as well as you, viz. God will have her elect Officers of his deſignment (that is, ſuch as the rule directs her to chooſe) to doe his worke according to that Power which hee hath given them, and by his direction, and then they are Gods ſervants and not the Churches, and receive that charge and function immediatly from God, and not from the people; wee meane no otherwiſe then by that outward call inſtrumentally applying that Office unto them; and in this ſenſe wee cloſe with you herein: and indeed this power of electing Officers doth not ever include authority over them whom they chuſe, but rather willing ſubjection unto them, and ſetting them up to rule; as when a woman chooſeth a husband, ſhe makes him her husband in a ſort, but withall her head and ruler; ſo when a people chooſe a Major, &c.
Anſw. Fourthly, if the Power of the Keyes be given firſt and immediatly to the community of the faithfull, what reaſon can bee alleadged why in defect of Officers the Church might not rule, feed, bind, looſe, preach, and adminiſter Sacraments; or if any faile in Office, why ſhee might not ſupply that want by her power, for the power of the Keys doth containe both authority and exerciſe, power being given that it may bee exerciſed, as it is vouchſafed: but the Church cannot exerciſe theſe acts of rule. Ergo.
Anſw. The reaſon is, becauſe the Church hath not received ſome of the Keyes formally but onelyonly vertually, and (as was ſaid out of Parker) not as a gift abſolute but conditionall, that it might bee communicated to the Officers. Such power as the body of the Church hath received formally ſhee may and doth exerciſe, as a power of chooſing Officers, a power of judging in cenſures, 1 Cor. 5.12. and the like, the power of preaching properly ſo called & diſpenſing Sacraments, &c. being acts of authority, the Church hath them onelyonly vertually, and therefore muſt chooſe Officers, to whom Chriſt her Lord hath given authority in the Church. A Corporation that by Patent from the King hath many Priviledges, the power is given to the Body incorporated, and ſo it is the firſt ſubject of it, yet many acts cannot be put forth, but by Officers duely choſen: and ſo here.
Reply. For theſe Reaſons (not to inſiſt on any more) wee judge the community of the faithfull, not to bee the immediate receptacle of eccleſiaſticall authority, and ſo the Power of excommunication, not to belong unto them.
Anſw. By this concluſion it appeares that how ever the author began profeſſedly againſt us as Separatiſts in this point, yet he followes the cauſe againſt Mr. Parker, with whom hee ſeemes to be friends. Secondly, the power of excommunication may belong to the Church or community in reſpect of a fraternall power of judging, though officiall authority bee not formally given to the Church but to the Officers.
Reply. If conſent of Churches bee asked in this point, to omit others, the Churches of Scotland ſpeake fully and expreſly for us in the ſecond booke of Diſcip. Cap. 1. The Church as it is taken for them that exerciſe ſpirituall functions in the Congregation of them that profeſſe the truth, hath a certaine power granted of God according to which it uſeth a proper juriſdiction, &c. Beza de Presb. pag. 60. Helv. Confeſſ. Cap. 18. Belgick, &c.
Anſw. If conſent of the learned, godly, and zealous reformers were asked, a cloud of witneſſes might bee produced that hold the Church the firſt ſubject of the Keyes, as Fulke, Whitaker, Parker, Peter Martyr, Muſculus and others, beſides many of the ancient Divines and Councells, Gerſon and the Pariſian Divines well known to the learned concerning quotation of the Scottiſh diſcipline, the firſt words lay ſo weake a foundation as leave the building ready to fall, in theſe words. The Church as it is taken for them that exerciſe ſpirituall functions hath a certaine power, &c. but where is the Church ſo taken? not in all the New Teſtament that can be proved with any ſolid Reaſon, notwithſtanding all wraſtling of men to find it out; but generally for the company of the faithfull, either the univerſall or particular Church; and this ſometime conſidered with her Officers: and divers times as diſtinguiſhed from them, as Acts 14.23. and 20.13.28. Jam. 5.14. Revel. 2.1.8.12. &c. but never contra, for the Officers diſtinguiſhed from the Church or body of the Congregation; and therefore if the Keyes be given to the Church, and the plea of the power of the Keyes to be given immediatly to the Officers be in and under the name of the Church, it will fall to the Church of the faithfull, if the Scripture may judge: indeed among the Papiſts, and ſo the Prelates, the Clergy have long got and held poſſeſſion of the name of the Church, but the teſtament of Chriſt will not beare this foundation, but wee will not trouble the Reader farther about humane teſtimonies.