A Defense of the Answer Made Unto Nine Questions, Chapter 3

A Defense of the Answer Made Unto Nine Questions · Chapter 3

p. 40CHAP. III.

2 Poſition.

That it is not lawfull to joyne in Prayer, or receive the Sacraments, where a ſtinted Liturgie is uſed: Or, as wee conceive your meaning to bee in this as in the former, &c. viz. where and when that ſtinted Liturgie is uſed.

Reply. IF we miſtake not your judgement and practiſe both, you have born witneſſe againſt both that you call the rigid ſeparation, and this more moderate alſo; and wee humbly wiſh that the moderate doe not degenerate into the rigid ere long; it is very ſtrange if they take not great encouragement upon your grounds.

Anſw. If you will needs account not joyning in that ſtinted impoſed Liturgy, to bee a moderate ſeparation, wee muſt confeſſe, we have witneſſed againſt ſuch ſeparation; yea, not onelyonly conformed to that corrupt Worſhip, but alſo to divers of the Ceremonies thereof, ſome of us with ſhame before the Lord may confeſſe it: But we deſire that may be no prejudice to the truth ſince diſcovered to us: but wee have ever conceived, that the ſeparation witneſſed againſt, both by your ſelves and us, have been ſuch as to ſeparate from the Churches of England as no true Churches, the Miniſtery, as no true Miniſtery: their ſeparations from corruptions in Doctrine and Worſhip, their endeavour to enjoy all the ordinances of the Lord Jeſus in purity, if wee bee not miſtaken, your judgement and practiſe with ours, have alwayes approved; and the queſtion now in hand is not about a new kinde of ſeparation more moderate, from the Churches and Miniſtery of England; but whether the Liturgy of England be not indeed one of thoſe corruptions in Worſhip, which you and wee had need reject, as well as the ceremonies, and no longer conforme to the ſame. And wee heartily wiſh that the growing endeavours of the godly, after more purity of Worſhip, and to bee purged from all the pollutions of the man of ſinne, bee not too raſhly branded with the odium of ſeparation: and breach of peace and unity of the Church. As for degenerating into the rigid ſeparation, wee think you need not feare it, upon our principles, no more then upon the common grounds of Non-conformiſts, and you know what they inferre upon thoſe principles, p. 41now juſtly it concernes you to conſider, as well as …; but as it is truly obſerved in England, it was the juſtification and preſſing of ceremonies and other corruptions, that drave many to ſeparation, not the endeavour of further Reformation; ſo you may feare, the too too much conformity of Miniſters to humane impoſitions, and juſtification of the Liturgie, &c. have and will more dangerouſly alienate godly minds from your Churches and Miniſtery, and ſo drive to ſeparation; then all the principles and progreſſe of the godly in wayes of reformations: and wee ſhall refer it to the judicious and common experience, whether the diſcovery of the corrupt worſhip in the Liturgy, or contrary conformity to it, be the greater block of offence, and ſtrengthens the hands of the Separatiſts moſt, which yet you after object unto us.

Wee ſuppoſe the Worthies of this renowned Parliament, together with thoſe of the reverend Aſſembly, would not ſo ſoone have removed the whole frame and fabrick of this Book, nor wholly ſtopped up this pit, if building of battlements about it, and keeping watchmen neare it, to bid paſſengers take heed, had been the readieſt way to cure ſeparation: nor doe wee thinke that this reverend man of God, would have been in more jealouſie and feare of us (if hee had conſidered how tenderly we returned our anſwer to the queſtion) then of thoſe faithfull witneſſes in Scotland, who ſeparated their lives into the hands of death, rather then communicate in the uſe of this Booke; and yet wee thinke they deſerve a better place, then to bee ranked ſo neare to the rigid ſeparation; notwithſtanding for our ſelves we are heartily thankfull for what he humbly wiſheth, and for his jealouſie over us ſo farre as it is godly; but ſo farre as ſuch wiſhes caſt a cloud of evill ſuſpition over us in the hearts of others, as if we were going faſter then we knew where to ſtay, we wiſh humbly ſuch words had been ſpared till ſome other time.

Concerning this diſtinction, a letter of this ſubject is cited, printed without the Authors knowledge, that put a difference indeed between the reaſons of the Separatiſts proper to them qua tales, and other reaſons uſed by himſelf, common to others ſtudious of Reformation. To which we anſwer.

1 That letter acknowledgeth no ſuch diſtinction of ſeparation, rigid, and moderate, onelyonly (if you will) a ſeparation from Churches, and ſeparation from the ſins and corruptions of Churches, which latter is all we profeſſe.

p. 422 Thoſe Reaſons which the letter aſcribes to them, qua t…les, will wee ſuppoſe bee found in their Books thus farre, that the Prayers, Preachings, Sacraments, &c. are unlawfull, becauſe offered in a falſe Church by a falſe Miniſtery for the ſubjects of Antichriſts kingdome.

That there ſhould be no Separatiſts in the world, becauſe none, it is ſaid none▪ plead againſt the Booke of Common…prayer as unlawfull, becauſe offered up in a falſe Church; is ſtrange to us, that this learned Author ſhould not read or obſerve the ſame, exceeding frequently in the Separatiſts writings; take but a taſte in the firſt pages of Mr. Smith againſt Bernard in his parallels, cenſures, and obſervations, his words pag. 9. are theſe, Hee would prove that an erroneous conſtitution of a Church, is a reall Idol; and the prayers they offer with the prayers of the wicked, comming from that falſe conſtitution, are tainted with the Idolatry of that conſtitution. And pag. 10. It is Idolatry to offer up ſervice to God in a Church of a falſe conſtitution. And pag. 13. Tell mee Mr. Bernard ▪ can there be a true Miniſtery, true baptiſme, true faith, true prayer, true preaching and adminiſtring the ſupper, true excommunication, in a Church which is falſly conſtituted? Did the Lord accept the ſacrifice of the Church conſtituted by Jeroboam? ſo page 14. A Church falſly conſtituted, is not accepted of God, neither are their actions eccleſiaſticall, as prayer, preaching, &c. acceptable in the ſight of God. And againe, a falſe Miniſtery, Worſhip, government, may bee in a true Church, through ignorance, and the like: but a true Miniſtery, worſhip, government cannot poſſibly bee in a falſe Church. We thinke it needleſſe to recite more teſtimonies; Aliquando honus dormitat Homerus, A good memory may ſometimes fall aſleep, and not ſee that, which is ſometimes moſt obvious and viſible. But what other arguments they have, are, or may bee common to others ſtudious of Reformation; as their arguments againſt ceremonies are common with Non-conformiſts, and therefore if ſome of our grounds bee found in them, it doth not follow, they are …afts taken out of the ſame quiver, and peculiar to them, as you object.

Reply. Theſe reaſons ſhall be common to all, that plead for the purity of Gods Ordinances, which were never taken to bee ſound and true, either by the Reformed Churches abroad, or by the godly Brethren at home, dead or living, or yet by the most of the Brethren amongſt whom they live, and …old ſociety, or by any Miniſter and ſociety holding the unity of the p. 43Spirit in the hand of peace, th…ſe 1400▪ years and upward, unleſſe within theſe few dayes, and that by a few onelyonly.

Anſw. Here is a great colour of Novelty and ſingularity objected to be in the grounds and reaſons of the Letter, uſed againſt conformity to the Liturgy: but it is eaſie to conceive that the ſame common grounds of all Reformers, may be juſtly carryed on againſt ſuch further corruptions, as they never …aw: not attending their owne principles in ſuch particulars, as was ſaid before of the firſt Reformers, that purged out ſalt, creame, oyle, &c. not the croſſe, &c. and ſo here it may fall out, that as the Lord is pleaſed to let in more light in this or that particular corruption; ſo upon common grounds it is rejected, though yet but one or few apply thoſe grounds to ſuch a particular caſe. Neither here was the number ſo few as is pretended, when this Reply was drawn up, or elſe at leaſt, it is much increaſed of late time, ſince the Aſſembly and Parliament in England have ſo openly in their Directory witneſſed againſt ſuch ſtinted Formes, and generally the Churches of Scotland renounced that Liturgy of yours, as a piece of Popery. Beſides all the Orthodox Churches in New-England, and Holland, and many godly in England.

Reply. As yet wee thinke moſt of them, that have ſeparated are not ſo farre gone, as to condemne all our Aſſemblies as no Churches of Chriſt.

Anſw. By this you ſeeme to inſinuate, that notwithſtanding our acknowledgement of your Churches and Miniſtery, wee may juſtly bee accounted amongſt thoſe wee properly call Separatiſts: but it is but your thought of moſt of them, without ground, contrary to their generall profeſſion in their publique confeſſions and apologies. And therefore we ſee no reaſon of it, or that it toucheth us; but paſſing theſe generalls, let us come to the matter more particularly.

Reply. Your judgement concerning the Poſition, you deliver in three Propoſitions (for ſo many they bee for ſubſtance) in reſpect of the perſons reading the Liturgie, or the thing in ſelfe that is read; as if any part of the Liturgie be read (put caſe ſome few ſelect prayers onelyonly) by an unable and ungodly Miniſter, it is unlawfull (ſay you) for the people to joyne in that caſe. But if unlawfull for the people to joyne, when an ungodly Miniſter readeth ſome few ſelect prayers, it is either in reſpect of the Miniſter, or the prayers themſelves; not of the Prayers themſelves, for they be ſelect and choyce, faultleſſe, in reſpect of matter p. 44and manner, … is taken for granted▪ unleſſe th… diſtribution bee is no purpoſe; if in reſpect of the Miniſter; then it is not lawfull to joyne with ſuch an one, in any ordinance of God whatſoever.

In that you analyſe our two Propoſitions into three, we ſhall not contend, but follow your method, yet wee cannot but marvaile at the liberty that is taken in ſtating the firſt Propoſition, both leaving out and adding ſuch things as will not ſtand with the termes in our Anſwer; and indeed this is too frequent in divers places of this Reply, which gives a great colour of ſtrength unto the arguments; but when they come to be ſcanned, it will diſcover the impertinency of them.

For, 1 Although the Anſwer diſtinguiſheth of the Liturgie, either of the whole, or of ſome ſelect prayers which may bee conceived to bee leſſe offenſive, yet the application of this of ſelect prayers, is onelyonly made in the ſecond propoſition of the Anſwer, no way intended in the firſt. Neither doth the Anſwer confeſſe thoſe prayers, as you ſay, to bee choyce and faultleſſe for matter and manner, but which may bee conceived leſſe offenſive.

2 Whereas the Propoſition is of an unable and ungodly Miniſter, ſuch unlearned Idol-Prieſts that are countenanced and eſtabliſhed by the Liturgie, and can doe no more then read the ſame, to the unſpeakable hazard and ruine of a multitude of ſoules; you carry along your arguments onelyonly in the terme of an ungodly Miniſter, which leaves out one chiefe ground of our propoſition, viz. unable.

To reduce therefore this propoſition unto its true ſtate which the anſwer puts it in, which is thus, If the queſtion bee of joyning in prayer with, and when that whole Liturgie is read, or where that which is uſed, (viz. though not the whole) is read by an unable and ungodly Miniſter: wee ſee not how it can bee lawfull to joyne, &c. where that which is read by an unable and ungodly Miniſter, cannot have reference to the ſelect prayers, but onelyonly was put in, to reach the whole caſe, leſt any ſhould ſay, may we not joyne, therefore if they read not all, (as ſometimes ſuch doe not, for haſte to the Alehouſe, Beare-baitings, &c.) And the caſe is ſo well known to our ſelves and others, what the manner of ſuch Prieſts is, how farre they are from making any choyce of ſelect prayers: or having any skill indeed ſo to doe; that if any bee more ſuperſtitious then others, they would p. 45ſooneſt chooſe them; ſo that it was farre from our thoughts to impute it to them, to read the ſelect prayers onelyonly. The queſtion being rightly ſtated, the argument will halt very much; For wee ſay, it is unlawfull in both reſpects, and the rather, when jointly conſidered; and therefore you ſhould firſt have juſtified the whole Liturgy, or ſo much as ſuch Idol-Prieſts uſe to read to bee lawfull, and alſo the ſtanding and calling of thoſe men, before the argument can hold, both which you have wholly left naked without proofe, and argue onelyonly about the lawfulneſſe of joyning with an ungodly Miniſter in the Ordinances of God, which will not reach this caſe. If one ſhould affirme it is unlawfull to goe to Mattens or Evenſong, when the whole is read, or that which is read, … done by a popiſh Prieſt, and you ſhould anſwer then, it is either becauſe of the Prayers or the Prieſt. Not the firſt; for the prayers (if ſelect) may bee good, and faultleſſe, and not becauſe of the Prieſt, for then wee may never joyne with an ungodly Miniſter in the Ordinances of God: The anſwer would bee very imperfect and impertinent, and juſt ſo it is here in the frame of the reaſon, though the corruptions in that ſervice and this be not alike we grant. But before wee anſwer to the ſecond part of your diſ-junction, let us conſider a little here once for all, the act of the people in joyning with the reading of this Liturgy, or ſo much of it, as is read uſually by ſuch Idol-prieſts. Firſt, concerning the Liturgy it ſelfe, if you reſpect the matter and forme, or manner of it, it would bee too tedious to rip up, what for matter hath been objected by the godly Reformers. Conſider but two things objected ſtrongly by Mr. Cartwright againſt the forme or manner of it. Firſt, that it is taken out of the Popiſh Maſſe-book, concerning which hee affirmeth, that although there were nothing in it unlawfull, or againſt the Word of God, (which ſaith hee) I wiſh there were not, yet no Word of God, no reaſon, nor example of the Ancient Churches, Jewiſh or Chriſtian, will permit us to uſe the ſame formes and ceremonies (viz. with Papiſts) being neither commanded of God, nor ſuch as there may not bee as good as they, and rather better eſtabliſhed, yea, conſidering how neare the Papiſts live amongſt us, it were more ſafe to conforme to the Ceremonies of the Turks that are farre off. And this hee ſpeaketh of the forme of Liturgy, as well as Ceremonies, Cartw. reply to Whitgifts anſwer to the admonition to the Parliament, pag. 131, 132. And although you ſeeme to make p. 46light of this objection, after page 15. end, yet in a like caſe, when Whitgift had ſaid, it is not materiall that Deanes, Canons came from the Pope; Cartwright replyeth thus; It is as if hee had ſaid, it skilleth not, if they came out of the bottomleſſe pit; for whatſoever commeth from the Pope, who is Antichriſt, comes firſt from the Devill, Cartw. Reply, pag. 204.

Secondly, hee objecteth that abſurd manner of chopping and interrupting the prayers, of which Mr. Cartwright ſaith, That if any man ſhould make ſuch a ſupplication to a Prince, he would thinke him to make his ſupplication before hee knew what to ask, or that hee had forgotten ſome piece of his ſuit;Ibid. p. 138. or that he were diſtracted in his underſtanding. Much more might bee added, but wee have onelyonly touched this ſore, and in the words of that learned and zealous Reformer, that it may appeare, neither the opinion of that Booke, nor the reaſons againſt it, are ſo new or proper to the Separatiſts, as is pretended. Now what comfort can any godly conſcience have to joyn in, or conform unto ſuch a form of Worſhip as this is?

Further conſider the adminiſtration of the Sacraments, according to the Book (as we ſpeak ſtill of joyning in it) who knows not, that ſuch muſt ſubject their children to that groſſe Idol of the croſſe, and ſee and approve the pollution of Gods Ordinances with the ſame: and at the Lords table joyne in that Idolatrous geſture of kneeling; and therefore how the godly can joyn lawfully in the whole, or ſuch parts as thoſe Idol-prieſts diſpenſe, let all Non-conformiſts judge; and it is well knowne, how ſuperſtitiouſly preciſe ſuch are, in preſſing all conformity to every geſture and ceremony preſcribed in their Booke, which they ſo idolize, as they have good cauſe, being that which maintaines them.

Secondly, if wee conſider the impoſition hereof by the Prelates and late ſtrict preſſing thereof upon the people to be preſent and conforme fully to it, as well as upon Miniſters to uſe it. The very yeelding of conformity thereto, doth miſerably caſt away the liberty purchaſed by Chriſt to his Churches, inthrall the Churches to Antichriſt, and lift up the power of Antichriſt in his tyrannous uſurpations upon the Churches of Chriſt.

Thirdly, we might adde the dangerous conſequences and ſcandals that follow from admitting this Liturgy, which being touched in our anſwer to the firſt Poſition, we here paſſe over.

p. 47Theſe things conſidered, it appeares, not onelyonly that there was need to diſprove the firſt part of your disjunction, which you declined in ſtating the queſtion; but alſo the truth of the Poſition it ſelfe is confirmed. Now let us conſider your proof of the ſecond part of your disjunction; which is thus,

Reply. If in reſpect of the Miniſter, then it is not lawfull to joyn with ſuch on one in any Ordinance of God. For if the Miniſter make it unlawfull, then all communion in any part of Gods Worſhip with ſuch Miniſters is unlawfull: and ſo the Churches in all ages of the world, the Prophets, our Saviour Chriſt, the Apoſtles, and the faithfull in the Primitive Church, … in holding communion with ſuch, whe… the Prieſts were dumbe dogs, &c. but we never read that the Prophets, our Saviour Chriſt, the Apoſtles did ever forbeare themſelves, or warne the faithfull not to communicate with ſuch in the ordinances of Worſhip. Our Saviour charged the Diſciples to beware of the leaven of the Scribes and Phariſeas, but never forbad them to communicate with them in the ordinances of God.

Anſw. To this we anſwer; Firſt, that if you ſpeake to the caſe in hand of thoſe unable and ungodly Miniſters of England, Readers (as they are called) of the Common-ſervice, wee grant it is not lawfull to communicate in a ſtated way with them, in any ordinance of Worſhip properly Miniſteriall; in any act that private perſons may performe, wee may communicate with them, but not in Miniſteriall worke, as Sacraments; for although being impoſed on any Church as Miniſters, and ſo received by them, their Miniſteriall acts are not a nullity; yet if wee ſpeake of the lawfulneſſe of ſuch their act of receiving them, then the Church ſinneth in chooſing them, or being impoſed, in receiving them, and ſubmitting to their Miniſtery, being ſuch as are utterly contrary to the rule of Chriſt, and rejected of him. And by the like reaſon the godly ſinne in receiving Sacraments, &c. from them, as Miniſters of Chriſt, knowing they intrude into that office, and have no authority by the rule of Chriſt ſo to doe. Wee may heare a private gifted Chriſtian prophecy, but if hee intrude without a lawfull calling into the Miniſtery, we may not receive him, nor approve of him therein.

Cyprians ſpeech is commonly noted, that Plebs maxime habet poteſtatem vel eligendi dignos Sacerdotes, vel indignos recuſandi; yet the occaſion of it is not ſo generally obſerved, which is this, Plebs obſequen… praeceptis Dominicis, Deum me…uens, à peccatore propoſito p. 48ſeparare ſe debet, nec ſe ad ſacrilegia ſacerdotis ſacrificia iniſcere, cum ipſe maxime habet poteſtatem eligendi, &c. that is, the people obſerving divine precepts, and fearing God, ought to ſeparate themſelves from a wicked Miniſter, neither joyne themſelves to the ſacrifices of a ſacrilegious Prieſt, ſeeing they chiefly have power of chooſing worthy Miniſters, and rejecting unworthy.

Secondly, wee ſee no demonſtrative argument that the Prieſts and Phariſees were wholly unable for the worke of thoſe times, as theſe wee ſpeake of are for—: though the Prieſts, Eſay 56.10. were dumb dogs that cannot barke; yet it ſeemes by the place to be meant actually, rather then habitually, through their ſlumbering or ſecurity there mentioned, not telling the people of their ſinnes, nor warning them of judgements, rather then of their totall inability. Men of good parts and able gifts may be actually ſuch dumb dogs, as ſeldome preach, or never to purpoſe, and bee ſpiritually ignorant through much prophaneneſſe, yet not totally deprived of common gifts: It is moſt evident that the Phariſees were blinde, yet taught the people, and hence the Diſciples were permitted to heare them; but what is this to the queſtion, which is of unable, as well as of ungodly Miniſters?

Peter Martyr in 1 Kings 12. verſe 31.1 Kgs 12:31Thirdly, ſuppoſe ſome of the Prieſts and Levites were unable, yet the Miniſtery of the Old Teſtament was limitted by God himſelfe to the tribe of Levi, and that by ſucceſſion, which is farre otherwiſe in the New Teſtament, being left to the Churches election, and therefore they had no power to reject them, or withdraw from them, when they had miniſtred the ordinances of God.

Fourthly, ſuppoſe ſome of them were not called of God, being not lineally deſcended of that tribe, yet thoſe things wherein the faithfull, Chriſt and his Apoſtles, and others did communicate with them, were neceſſarily commanded of God, viz. ſacrifices, offerings, &c. in the Temple, which ſeale of God we ſee not ſtamped upon this Liturgy in queſtion, to make it currant. And thus Peter Martyr anſwereth in the like caſe,Pet. Mart. Com. Loc. de Idol. in prae…. l. 1. that though there were many pernicious doctrines taught by Scribes, Phariſees and wicked Prieſts, yet ſacrificandi ritus, &c. the rites of ſacrificing were not changed; for the ſame oblations were offered, which the Law commanded, and therefore the Saints might uſe them, having the word of God conjoyned with them.

Fifthly, what you grant concerning Chriſt his warning his p. 49Diſciples to take heed of the leaven of the Scribes and Phariſees, no doubt hee did the like, concerning the corruptions of the Prieſts in their adminiſtrations of Gods ordinances, and wee doubt not,Iohn 2.15, 16.John 2:15John 2:16 but you will acknowledge that the Prophets and Apoſtles did or ought to abſtaine from all actuall communion with thoſe corruptions, and the Lord Jeſus out of queſtion did abſtaine: which being ſo, wee may retort this argument thus in regard of conformitie to ceremonies, If it bee not lawfull to partake in the Ordinances of God, where wee muſt actually joyne with ſuch ceremonies, then Chriſt, the Prophets and Apoſtles muſt not have joyned in any ordinance of God in ſeverall ages of the Church, when worſe or as ill corruptions were admixed with that worſhip: But they never refuſed the ordinances of worſhip for ſuch corruptions; Therefore wee ſhould not now for theſe ceremonies abſtaine; put caſe for kneeling at the Lords Supper, &c. If you pleaſe to ſolve this knot, the ſame anſwer will ſerve our turne as well.

Reply. It is not for private Chriſtians to withdraw themſelves from the ordinances of worſhip, and communion of the Church, becauſe ſuch are permitted to deale in the holy things of God, whom they judge or know unfit; when men joyne in the worſhip of God with unworthy Miniſters, they doe not countenance them, their place and office, but obey the commandement of God, who requires their attendance upon his highneſſe in that way and meanes.

Anſw. Firſt, wee grant it is not alwayes for private Chriſtians ſo to leave the communion of a Church in the ordinances of God, for ſuch a reaſon, but if they have firſt done their part according to their place to reforme or caſt out ſuch an unworthy and unable miniſtry, and cannot, or ſee no hope to procure one ſufficient to edifie the Church, hee may and ought to betake himſelfe to ſome other Church, where hee may bee edified, and it is a great miſtake to thinke, (in the conſtitution of the Goſpell) that a Chriſtian cannot reject all fellowſhip with ſuch Idoll Prieſts, but hee muſt forſake the ordinances of Chriſt, or rent off from the Church, when indeed hee deprives himſelfe of many ordinances in joyning with them▪ and attaines them in forſaking of them.

Secondly, if we conſider wherein the outward call of all Church Officers in the New Teſtament lies, viz. in a great part in the choice of the Church, or at leaſt in their after conſent and receiving of them, being choſen by others for them, Act. 1. and 6. and 14. how can any godly man receive, ſubmit unto, or acknowledge p. 50ſuch unable wretches by receiving Gods ordinances from them, as Miniſters, but they muſt needs countenance them in their places, and ſet up to themſelves an Idoll or meanes of worſhip to edifie themſelves, which God never appointed; for let it bee proved that ever God appointed readers of a Liturgie to edifie the people.

Anſw. Thirdly, but that to joyne in worſhip with ſuch ſhould bee to obey Gods command, who requires attendance upon himſelfe in that way and meanes, wee thinke it a ſpeech not ſo throughly digeſted, if wee carry in our eye the caſe now in hand, concerning theſe Idoll Prieſts and Silver ſhrines. For where can they ſhew any ſuch command? or why hath it been ſuffered by any of our Brethren, that the godly living under ſuch Prieſts, have been ſo frequently abſent from them, reading the liturgy, to heare their Sermons? Nay why have they not told them, they were bound to attend upon God in hearing their Sir John read at home? Wee appeale to all conſciences, whether they would approve of any godly man, that would reſt in ſuch meanes, and not call him to leave all his outward conveniences, for ſome godly able Miniſtry: or at leaſt not to attend on them, but get where they may bee better edified.

Reply. To goe no further then the Text you quote, Hoſea 4.6, 7. Becauſe thou haſt deſpiſed knowledge I have rejected thee; properly the Text ſpeaketh of the ten Tribes and the Prieſts amongſt them, who worſhipped the Calves, &c. whom the Lord threatens to reject; but neither this nor any other Text proves, that people joyning in worſhip with ſuch, doe countenance them in their places.

Anſw. The Text proves that God rejects ſuch Prieſts as theſe are, (juſt like Jeroboams Prieſts of the meaneſt of the people) and that was all it was alledged for, and that receiving ſuch as Miniſters doth countenance them in their places, was proved before. And if it bee meant of Jeroboams Prieſts, as you ſay, the approved practiſe of the godly in thoſe dayes, 2 Chron. 11.16. will well juſtifie and lead us to reject and leave theſe alſo.

Secondly, there ſeemes to bee foure arguments, why the people ſhould withdraw from theſe kind of Prieſts: Firſt, in regard of their miſerable periſhing for want of knowledge by their meanes. Secondly, becauſe the people in receiving them, rejected knowledge, as Calvin notes upon the place. Thirdly, becauſe God would take a time to disburthen the Church of them, whence Druſius p. 51in locum wiſheth, utinam tales hodie à miniſterio a…verentu…. Fourthly, becauſe the Lord would caſt off their children from being his, for this ſinne, as Calvin alſo notes upon the place; the promiſe of ſhewing mercy to a 1000. generations, being chiefly annexed to the obſervers of the ſecond Command, and the inſtituted meanes of worſhip, which thoſe Prieſts never were.

Reply. On the contrary, if you will extend this Text to all unworthy Miniſters of what ſort ſoever, whom the Word of God condemns, as not approved Miniſters of God, &c.

Anſw. Wee intended no other ſorts then ſuch as wee have in hand, the unable and ungodly Idoll Prieſts of England, and therefore this diſcourſe concernes us not. For wee freely confeſſe, that it is lawfull in divers caſes, at leaſt for a time, to communicate with ſuch unworthy Miniſters as may bee contained in your deſcription: but that people muſt and ought to joyne with ſuch in the worſhip of God, and ſinne, if they ſeparate from the ordinances, (as you ſay) the Scriptures alledged teach not this ſo evidently, that wee can ſee, as 1 Sam. 2.12, 13.17.24. that imputation, Verſe 24. They make the Lords people to tranſgreſſe, doth. not depend immediatly on Verſe 13, 14.17. but on Verſe 22.23. where they are charged to have layne with the women, the other paſſages being interrupted by the ſtory of Samuel and his Mother, Verſe 18, 19.20, 21. So Jer. 8.8, 9. Micah 3.11, 12. containe onelyonly threats againſt wicked Miniſters, but not a word to prove people ought to joyne with them, &c. Phil. 1.15. ſpeaking of ſuch as preach and preach Chriſt, though not of ſinceritie, doth not reach ſuch Miniſters as the word condemnes: for many ſuch may be approved Miniſters by the Word, having a call according to the ſame; but wee ſhall not contend in this caſe, wherein wee doe not diſſent, ſo that Chriſtians bee left to their lawfull libertie of withdrawing from Miniſters groſſely wicked, and Teachers of falſe Doctrin, or idle and unſufficient, when they cannot reclaime them, or remove them in the uſe of all lawfull meanes within their power.

Reply. The reaſons whereby the ancient Churches condemned the Donatiſts and Cathariſts for their voluntary and ſeditious ſeparations, and the moderne Churches condemne the Anabaptiſts for their renting from the body of Chriſt, will hold againſt ſeparation from the Prayers of the Congregation, becauſe they are read by an ungodly Miniſter.

Wee deny that wee teach or hold ſuch ſeparation, becauſe read by an ungodly Miniſter, as is ſufficiently ſhewed before; but what p. 52we ſpeak is againſt conformitie to and communion with the corruptions of the Liturgie eſpecially uſed by an unable as well as ungodly Miniſter, and therefore the arguments mentioned will hold againſt our propoſition, juſt as the accuſations and imputations of Donatiſme, Puritaniſme, Anabaptiſme, which the Prelates caſt upon all Non-conformiſts and men ſtudious of reformation, will hold and faſten upon them, which is nothing at all.

Reply. The ſecond Propoſition, where the whole Liturgie is uſed though by an able and godly Miniſter, it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer in that caſe; Wee cannot bee of your judgement herein, for in the times of the Prophets, and our Saviour Chriſt as great abuſes no queſtion were found, &c. but they never taught people to ſeparate from the holy things of God.

Anſw. Firſt, wee muſt ſtill mind the Reader of the true and full ſtate of the queſtion, which in our anſwer is of joyning in prayer, with, and when that whole Liturgy is uſed, and hee that joynes with that whole Liturgie muſt needs bee ſuppoſed to have actuall communion with all the corruptions thereof what ever they bee, and therefore though this Propoſition reach to the practiſe of able and godly Miniſters, yet let none thinke wee plead herein ſeparation from their miniſtery, but onelyonly that people may not conforme with them to any corruption in worſhip, and by this propoſition alſo the Author might eaſily have ſeene that wee denied the other (which was woven in with this) not becauſe of the ungodlineſſe of the Miniſter alone as hee carried his diſpute, but chiefly in reſpect of the corruptions of the worſhip, together with the unlawfulneſſe of ſuch a miniſtery that is both unable and ungodly.

Secondly, concerning the argument it runs as full for conformitie to all the corrupt ceremonies of the booke as the corrupt worſhip it ſelfe therein, as was ſaid before, cleare the one, viz. nonconformitie to ceremonies, ſhew a reaſon why you will ſeparate from the Sacrament, becauſe you will not kneele according to the booke, and you anſwer your argument here alledged againſt us: but the reply proceeds.

Reply. And if preſence at formes of prayer bee not lawfull by reaſon of the corruptions alledged, there can bee no viſible ſocietie named, ſince 200. yeeres after Chriſt or thereabout, wherein a Chriſtian might lawfully joyne in prayer, reading the Scriptures, hearing the word, or participation of the Sacraments; their Doctrines, prayers, rights being leſſe pure then ours: but no man wee hope will bee ſo bold as to affirme the ſtate of the Churches p. 53within 200. yeers after Chriſt to bee ſo miſerably decayed that the faithfull could not without ſinne hold communion with them in the foreſaid ordinances of God.

Anſw. Firſt, this argument holds as ſtrongly for conformitie to the ceremonies as to the whole booke of Common Prayers, as was ſaid before.

Secondly, this is a dangerous kind of reaſoning from the practiſe of the faithfull in corrupt times of the Church, eſpecially when they are declining, and growing clouds of darkeneſſe, and ſuperſtition overſpread the Churches. It is no breach of charitie to thinke that through the iniquitie of the times, the godly lived in many evils through ignorance and weakeneſſe which after light is come into the Churches wee ought to abandon wholly; theſe are times of light and of the conſumption of Antichriſt, and time for us to aboliſh his Liturgies and corrupt formes of worſhip as well as Images, ceremonies, &c. Who doe not pitie the weakneſſe of godly Bilny and others that ſeeing ſome groſſe corruptions were yet ſo devoutly obedient to the Church (as they called it) in many groſſe ſuperſtitions? and the like may bee ſaid of thoſe former times, and wee ſee not but this reaſon will goe farre in juſtification of communion with many falſe worſhips of Antichriſts that are not groſly idolatrous.

Thirdly, it is a great charge upon thoſe times to ſay no viſible ſocietie throughout the world can bee named ſince 200. yeeres after Chriſt, that was not leſſe pure then England in Doctrine, rites, &c. It may bee, that as generally Churches were corrupt, ſo they contemned and cenſured ſuch as profeſſed more puritie: but that there were ſome viſible aſſemblies more pure may bee conceived by that teſtimony given to Aerius and many orthodox Chriſtians with him, though condemned for a Hereticke, in that which wee all now hold to bee an undoubted truth; alſo after the Waldenſes caſting off the Pope and his will worſhips, and the following reformed Churches, thoſe of Scotland, Geneva, and divers others in France and Switſerland, &c. whoſe Doctrines, rites and adminiſtrations wee doubt not will bee confeſſed more pure then Engliſh Churches. It would bee too tedious, and in theſe knowing times needleſſe to ſearch all records and to compare the puritie of the prayers, and rites of theſe with former times, wee read of very few formes uſed for 300. yeeres, ſome ſhort ones they had which are retained yet in our Liturgie, with many more, and p. 54theſe formes they had, not impoſed nor ſtinted, which is the great offence of this, untill about the yeere 406. and there wee read in the Milevitan Councell that no prayers ſhould bee uſed in Churches but what were either compoſed of able and ſufficient men, or approved by the Synods, and this was determined onelyonly in regard of the ignorant Miniſtery of thoſe contentious and hereticall times,Conc. Miliv. Can. 12. as Chemnitius obſerves, ne forte aliquid contra fidem vel per ignorantiam, vel per minus ſtudium ſit compoſitum. If the Roman Biſhops did multiply (as indeed they did exceſſively (unleſſe their owne admirers erre groſſely) rites and formes of prayer, yet it is well knowne how long it was ere the Churches in other places ſubmitted to their power, ſo that this compariſon might well have beene ſpared. To conclude, though wee ſay not that all Churches ſince 200. yeeres after Chriſt were ſo miſerably decayed, that the faithfull might not without ſinne communicate with them, yet wee may bee bold to ſay many of them were ſo corrupt, that the faithfull did not, nor could not communicate in many parts of Gods worſhip without ſinnes of ignorance conforming to the corruptions themſelves; and that if they had ſeene and diſcovered the evill of them, they ought, and we beleeve would have abſtained from divers ordinances in regard of the corrupt adminiſtrations of them; yea after all meanes uſed to purge them out, and not prevailing, they ought and would have withdrawn themſelves to more pure Churches, or erected ſuch amongſt themſelves.

Reply. The prayers of the Miniſters conceived or ſtinted in a ſet forme bee not his private prayers, but the publike prayers of the aſſembly; but you will not ſay the people ought not to joyn with their paſtour therein if ought bee amiſſe, for matter, manner, or both.

Anſw. There is a wide difference betweene the whole Liturgie, ſo impoſed, and ſo clogged, as is before ſhewed: and ſuch prayers of the Miniſter having ſomething amiſſe. But you may put the caſe ſo, as it would bee unlawfull for people to joyne in ſuch prayers alſo: as if the Miniſter for matter uſually pray to Saints; for manner, turne himſelfe, and fix his eye on a Crucifix.

Reply. It is all one to the people in this caſe, whether the fault bee perſonall (as ſome diſtinguiſh) or otherwiſe; knowne beforehand or not knowne; for if ſimple preſence defile, whether knowne before hand▪ … not, all preſence is faultie, and if ſimple preſence defile not, our preſence is not condemned by reaſon of the corruptions knowne, whereof wee ſtand not guiltie.

Anſw. p. 55Firſt, we diſtinguiſh not here between perſonall and miniſteriall faults, but object againſt the perſonall act of him that joynes with that whole Liturgie, and ſo in the corruptions of it, as hee muſt needs doe, that joyns with the whole, not onelyonly ſaying Amen to them, but as is knowne he takes his ſhare in thoſe ſhreds of prayers, Reſponds, &c. which in Mr. Cartwrights judgement is ſo abſurd, as makes a man ſeeme out of his wits. And therefore his perſonall, actuall conformitie muſt needs carry guilt, and therefore there is more then ſimple preſence in this caſe, as is cleare to any underſtanding.

Secondly, it is not all one whether the faults bee knowne, or not knowne beforehand, as appeares plainely, 1 Cor. 10.27, 28, 29. where wee ſee, if a man come to a feaſt, and know not they eate with reference to the Idoll, nor that any take offence, he may eate without asking any queſtion: but if hee know ſuch things, he may not eate.

Beſides, publique ſinfull actions of Miniſters are either, 1 Accidental & occaſional, or 2ly. known & appointed in a ſtated ſervice; now the frailties of a Miniſter, which accidentally fall in and are not known before, nor are any part and eſſence of the ſervice, unto which men that come, doe or ſhould take themſelves to bee called, hinder not communion; becauſe they doe not prae ſe ferre by their preſence to attend and obſerve them, but the corruptions of the Liturgie are knowne and appointed, and to which and with which the impoſers call others to joyne as in a ſtated ſervice to God; the uſe of which if it bee an humane frailtie in Gods Miniſters, not yet convinced of the evill thereof, yet for thoſe to communicate herein, who know ſuch evills, have ſurely paſſed the bounds of frailtie and infirmitie; becauſe in this action of prayer there is not onelyonly communion by way of preſence, as it is in hearing the word, but communion of action: publique prayer being the common action of the whole Church towards God. There can be no prayer by any man offered to God, but there will be ſome humane frailties attending on it; if therefore for this cauſe wee ſhould reject communion in prayer, wee ſhould reject the ordinances of God, and never joyne in any prayer in this world; but the corruptions of the Liturgie are not ſuch, but that they may bee more eaſily caſt off, then kept.

This caſe ſtands not in tolerating faults in another (as the reply makes it) but in actuall joyning with the ſinnes of another, p. 56wherein hee that joyneth is involved, and therefore whether they bee corruptions, that may bee tolerated or not in another, yet if ſinnes, they may not bee practiſed and ſo joyned in with another. And therefore the caſe you put of communion with any perſon obſtinate in errour, till hee may bee convinced, is nothing to this purpoſe. For wee muſt not joyne with him in his error, no not an houre, though wee may tolerate him a monethmonth.

Reply. Hath not Chriſtian wiſedome and experience of humane frailties leſſoned you (deare brethren) to beare one with another in matters of greater conſequence, then any have, or can bee objected truely againſt the forme of prayer in uſe among us?

Anſw. The Lord hath leſſoned us to tolerate and beare with many humane frailties not onelyonly in one another, but alſo in our deare brethren abroad; but to joyne with the beſt of men in conformitie to knowne and groſſe corruptions in worſhipping God, or to ſtoop ſo low, to the inſolent tyranny of uſurping Prelates, as to beare on our backs their whole Liturgie, and the corruptions thereof, wee confeſſe wee have not yet learned, and now wee hope never to goe to that ſchoole againe to learne the ſame.

Reply. And why ſuch corruptions ſhould not bee aſcribed to humane frailtie, we ſee not. For if a godly Miniſter make uſe of a booke, in things which hee judges lawfull for matter and manner, the corruption of him that uſeth it, according to his judgement, from what cauſe can it ſpring but humane ignorance and frailtie?

Anſw. Firſt, the learned replier is very apt to forget the termes of the Propoſition, which is of the whole Liturgie, not of ſome things in it, that hee may judge lawfull, to judge the whole lawfull, wee thinke none of thoſe who ſent the queſtions doe.

Secondly, our queſtion is not whether the Miniſter uſe the book of humane frailtie, but whether the worſhip offered therein, bee not ſo corrupt for matter and manner, as puts a great difference betweene it, and the prayers of a Miniſter that may bee ſubject to faylings of humane frailtie. Wee doubt not, but Bilney, Latimer, &c. uſed the prayers and ceremonies of the Church of Rome, out of humane frailtie, yet the ſervice it ſelfe and thoſe ceremonies of holy water, holy bread, &c. which Latimer turned to as good uſe, as hee could, were evill and no way to bee conformed unto by the godly.

Thirdly, there are many things done of others through humane, p. 57frailtie, that is, ignorantly and in ſome meaſure perverſely, yet ſuch frailties, though they are to bee very long tolerated in the man, yet every humane frailtie is not ſo to bee tolerated, as to bee communicated with; for the groſſeſt Idolatry in Popery may in this ſenſe, if ignorantly done, bee accounted humane frailtie. It is true, wee may bee freed from communicating in anothers ſinne two wayes. 1. By bearing witneſſe againſt his ſinne, or 2ly by withdrawing from the perſon committing it. There were times wherein the Lord raiſed up witneſſes againſt the growing abominations of Antichriſt for many yeeres; and there are times (as Cameron well obſerves) wherein the Lord commands his people not onelyonly to beare witneſſe, but to come out of Babylon. The caſe may be ſo put as that wee may quit our hands from communicating with other men, in their ſinfull worſhip, by bearing witneſſe onelyonly againſt the ſinne, yet communicating with them in the reſt; & è eonira the circumſtances may bee ſuch, as that wee beſt free our ſelves from ſinne, by withdrawing from them in ſuch acts. And wee freely confeſſe wee know not how to acquit others that communicate in the whole Liturgie, without the one or the other.

Reply. Wee reſt aſſured you queſtion not the integritie of many, who make much more uſe of the looke, then onelyonly in a few ſelect prayers.

Anſw. You may ſo doe, and wee reſt aſſured you queſtion not the integritie of many that have conformed to the ceremonies, yet wee hope you will not juſtifie them in that act, no more then we doe any in this.

Reply. From the bottome of our hearts, wee pray that the Lord would remove out of his Church what ever offends, and yet all things might be ſo done, as might be approved in the conſciences of all.

Anſw. Wee not onelyonly joyne with you in this hearty deſire, but bleſſe God that wee live to ſee the ſame ſo farre accompliſhed in a good part of England, as it is; but as wee are perſwaded the growing light and zeale of many godly Miniſters and Chriſtians, that have diſcovered the evill of the booke it ſelfe, as well as the ceremonies thereof, and their reſolute rejection of the ſame, was one bleſſed meanes hereof, ſo wee feare the pleas and indeavours of ſome brethren to excuſe it and the uſe of it, will be a dangerous meanes to uphold in the hearts of many too good an opinion of it, and loathneſſe to caſt it quite away to the Moles and Bats, from whence it firſt came.

Reply. p. 58To aggr…vat… faults, eſpecially when it tends to draw away people from the ordinances of God, is no leſſe evill then to excuſe them, it may bee greater.

Anſw. Wee grant at ſome times and in ſome caſes it may bee ſo, but in matters of corrupt worſhip, wherein God is ſo jealous and at ſuch a time as this was; when the burthenſome corruptions of humane traditions ſo violently impoſed on the Churches, grew to ſuch a number and unſupportable weight to the conſciences of ſo many, wee doubt not to affirme, that now extenuations were farre more dangerous and offenſive to the Lord: wee cannot but with ſad hearts conſider and call to minde how many weake Chriſtians have ventured to ſwallow downe all manner of humane traditions and worſhips impoſed upon them, imboldned much (wee feare) by the examples, if not the reaſonings of many godly Miniſters, which ſcandall ſome of us with many amongſt you have have cauſe to bewayle before the Lord and give ſatisfaction before the world; And wee hope our departure from theſe burdens, and flight into theſe wilderneſſes to enjoy Chriſt in more pure ordinances of his worſhip, and the witneſſe wee have thereby borne againſt them, have not been in vaine through the grace of Jeſus Chriſt.

Reply. In them that joyne according to Chriſts command (and libertie of abſence from Chriſt hath not been ſhewed) notwithſtanding the corruptions, wee hold the prayers to bee an holy and acceptable ſacrifice to the Lord, and pleaſing to Jeſus Chriſt.

Anſw. How any man can joyne with this whole Liturgie according to Chriſts command, who in the ſecond commandement forbids all humane devices in his worſhip, whereof this Liturgie is ſo full; it is hard for us to conceive, and ſtrange to ſee it affirmed: and that Libertie from Chriſt to bee abſent cannot bee ſhewed. The whole ſentence as it ſtandeth, wee confeſſe to us ſeemes an high juſtification thereof, which wee little expected.

Reply. The corrupt ſacrifice is that which the deceiver bringeth voluntarily, and out of neglect, having a male in his flock, but the godly bringeth himſelfe and godly deſires according to the will of God, and the corruptions in matter or manner are not his, they cleave not to his ſacrifice to ſtaine and pollute it. The Text in Malach. 1. is miſapplyed, and wee deſire ſuch as alledge this paſſage againſt ſimple preſence at the prayers of the Liturgie, adviſedly to conſider whether God allow them to make ſuch application of his truth, which we much doubt of, to ſay no more.

Anſw. p. 59That people joyning in the whole Liturgie, voluntarily offer up the ſame, wee thought had beene no queſtion: If any joyne by feare and compulſion (though the will in this caſe is not forced, for …i…ta actio is voluntaria) [wee thinke that will not eaſe, but aggravate the evill, arguing a reluctancy or doubtfulneſſe at leaſt in his conſcience; and ſo what hee doth is not of faith, and therefore ſin, Rom. 14.] 2ly. What you ſay of the faithfull here, might be ſaid for the faithful in Malachi his time, if any godly man came with godly deſires to Jeruſalem to worſhip, and then careleſly buy and take a corrupt ſacrifice for cheapneſſe, eaſe, &c. ſhall hee not bee counted (at leaſt in part) this deceiver, and beare the curſe? And why not ſo here in this caſe? Let a man bring himſelfe, and never ſo godly deſires, yet if hee will joyne in a knowne corrupt ſervice, will his godly deſires excuſe him? ſhall not his broken abſurd reſponds, his ſtanding at the Creed, kneeling at the Sacrament, &c. all which hee muſt doe, if hee joyne in the whole Liturgie, ſhall none of theſe cleave to his ſacrifice? what though the Miniſter offer the ſervice? ſo did the Prieſt the ſacrifice; But both in the name of the people, and they joyning with him in offering the ſame to God. 3ly. Concerning Malach. 1.13, 14. the more adviſedly wee conſider it, the more perſwaded wee are, the Lord allow us to make ſuch application of the truth contained in it, and wee thinke others will bee of our mind, not onelyonly in reſpect of the ſimilitude that i… in this caſe, with that in Malachi, but alſo if wee conſider, what an argument the Lord uſeth to convince them of their corruptions and careleſneſſe in his ſervice, Verſe 11. wherein the Lord upbraids the Jewes and provokes them to Jealouſie, as the Apoſtle Paul ſpeakes, by declaring the reverend eſteeme of his name amongſt the heathen, and that every where Incenſe ſhould bee offered and a pure offering to his name. And what is that Incenſe, and pure offering, but the pure prayers, and worſhip of God that ſhould be in all Gentile Churches under the Goſpell? as Tertullian, Euſebius, Jerom and Auſtin with others expound it. And hee applies it againe, Verſe 14. I am a great King, and my name ſhall bee great amongſt the heathen: If then the Lord oppoſe the pure prayers and worſhip of Gentile Churches to the corrupt careleſſe ſacrifices of the Jewes, the application is not onelyonly ſutable, but the place containes a ſad admonition to all Gentile Churches, that by their corrupt worſhips, and Incenſe, ſo farre fruſtrate (as it were) Gods p. 60expectation and glorying of their pure oblations.

Reply. Your third Propoſition. That as you are very tender of imputing ſinne to thoſe men that joyne in ſome ſelect prayers read by an able and godly Miniſter, ſo on the other ſide, you are not without feare, leſt ſuch joyning may bee found unlawfull, unleſſe it may appeare, that the Miniſters with whom they have communion, neither give ſcandall by reading them, nor give unlawfull honour to a thing abuſed to Idolatry and Superſtition, nor doe ſuffer themſelves to bee ſinfully limited in the reading of them.

1 Wee cannot conceive how you ſhould imagine the practiſe of a godly Miniſter in reading ſome few ſelect prayers to bee ſcandalous, or offenſive in the Congregations, when the people generally in their aſſemblies and in the whole land were perſwaded of the lawfulneſſe of that courſe, till now of late times ſome have beene drawne away to ſeparate; who yet by warrant of Scripture produce nothing of weight, to countenance that practiſe.

Anſw. Concerning this Propoſition, wee doe ingenuouſly confeſſe, that it may ſeeme over rigid and tending to ſeparation, and therefore we will not wholly juſtifie the ſame: yet diverſe things there bee, which may much mitigate the ſeeming rigidneſſe of it.

1 In the words of the anſwer, where wee doe not determine any thing poſitively, wee doe not impute ſinne to any in ſuch a caſe, wee ſay onelyonly that wee are not without feate, leſt it may bee found unlawfull, where any ſcandall, unlawfull honour, or ſinfull limiting bee found in the Miniſters: and if our feares bee needleſſe, wee hope, ſuch as know how jealous the Lord is in matters of his worſhip will eaſily forgive us.

2 Becauſe you marvell wee ſhould bee ſo timerous in this caſe, wee ſhall give you ſome reaſons of it, which perhaps may abate much the marvell or wonder.

Firſt, let it bee remembred that theſe ſelect prayers are yet a part of that Liturgie, which is acknowledged to bee corrupt in matter and manner and clogged with ſuch evill conſequences as are afore touched; Taken out of the Maſſe-booke, &c. And Maſter Parker (who was no ſeparatiſt) doubts not to affirme, that the touching of Antichriſts things maketh uncleane, for which hee cites, 2 Cor. 6.17. Haggai 2.14. John 4.23. Park of the Croſſe, part 1. pag. 137.

Secondly, let it be conſidered that this booke is impoſed by an unlawfull Antichriſtian authoritie of the Prelates, to whom to give place and ſubjection in any thing is juſtly to bee queſtioned. p. 61And wee know that a man may acknowledge his fealtie and hold his Lands of the Lord of the Manner by a ſmall rent, as well as by a greater.

Thirdly, conſider this corrupt Service-booke hath beene overlong tolerated and borne withall in the Engliſh Churches: it deſerveth not ſo honorable a buriall as the Jewiſh worſhip: but hath ſtunke above ground twice 40. yeeres, in the noſtrills of many godly, who breathed in the pure ayre of the holy Scripture, being witneſſed againſt by the writings and ſufferings of many godly Miniſters and Chriſtians in England and Scotland.

Fourthly, many godly men (it is well knowne) have been (of late times eſpecially) offended at many good Miniſters ſilence in theſe things, that they would no more plainely and boldly diſcover the corruptions in that booke, and at their compliance with the ſame.

Fiftly, theſe are times of more light, whereby the Lord is conſuming Antichriſt, with the breath of his mouth. And therefore we have cauſe the more to feare how we meddle with any thing of his.

Sixtly, conſider the ſeaſon when this anſwer was ſent, was it not at a time, when ſuperſtitious opinions of the whole booke and the ceremonies thereof, were growne to a great height in the mindes and hearts of very many? when divers ſuperſtitious Popiſh worſhips, as bowing at the name of Jeſus, reading at the Table ſet Altar-wiſe, &c. were added to the heape of former corruptions? when the tyranny of the Prelates raged in the preſſing of the booke, and their other humane inventions? when many Miniſters and people (well thought of by the beſt) were carried away ſhamefully with theſe things? when many weake Chriſtians were ſtaggering and wavering and looking at the judgement and practiſe of their guides, ready to ſtand or fall with them?

Laſtly, conſider that things lawfull in themſelves may bee inexpedient; becauſe offenſive in their uſe, and ſo farre unlawfull; which offence wee chiefly looked at in this act, as appeares by our anſwer.

Let all theſe things bee laid together and weighed in an equall ballance (which wee hope our brethren are now at ſome libertie and leaſure to doe) and let the conſciences of all ſpeake, whether it was not high time, for all the godly in England to take unto them that zeale and courage, which was ſoone after in our Brethren p. 62of Scotland, to caſt off and wholly abandon the book it ſelf and all the formes of it, and uſe of the ſame in every part and peece thereof? At leaſt wee hope you will ceaſe to marvell at our timerouſneſſe of ſuch a ſeaſon, how ever wee confeſſe, wee have ſometime been more bold in the darke.

Theſe conſiderations premiſed, as they may in a great meaſure abate the ſeeming rigour of the propoſition: ſo they will much take off the edge of the Reply. For it will appeare that all conformitie of Miniſters and people to any parcells of that booke, at ſuch a ſeaſon as this was, is a farre differing caſe from thoſe that are put in ſome of the replies.

1 To the firſt reply then, wherein you put it beyond imagination, that ſuch a practiſe ſhould bee ſcandalous or offenſive, wee know not what you have obſerved in ſome particular congregations neere you: but what ever have beene the opinions of men formerly concerning this practiſe, yet you know that the booke in generall hath been condemned of all godly reformers, and the uſe of any part of it hath been counted burdenſome to many for the reaſons named. But of later times, as the booke and conformitie thereto was urged more hotly, ſo the ſpirits of very many grew more zealous againſt it, and began to loath it, and to withdraw wholly from it; many very inquiſitive about the lawfulneſſe or unlawfulneſſe of joyning with it at all, and your ſelves complaine of the withdrawing of many, from joyning in the ordinances, where it was uſed, ſo that wee ſee not, but at leaſt in ſome perſons and at ſome places and times it might probably bee offenſive and ſcandalous ſo to practiſe.

2 Wee looked not onelyonly to the offence of thoſe in your owne congregations, but to the imboldning and hardning of Papiſts in honouring any part of their portuiſes, above the formes of other reformed Churches abroad; and you cannot bee ignorant how many of the Lords witneſſes now aſleepe have teſtified of the offence and danger thereof.

Reply. 2 You ſay if the booke were an Idolothyte, yet latent offence doth not oblige.

Anſw. The offence in this ſeaſon, and as all things ſtand, cannot bee latent, complaint is made of the offence taken by many, and therefore it is evident.

Reply. 3 The booke ſo farre as it is ſound and good (by your confeſſion) is no Idolothyte, nor taken out of the Maſſe booke, in ſuch ſenſe as you object▪ p. 63but rather the Maſſe and other prayers added to it; Popery is a ſcab cle… ving to the Church, and many truths belonging to the Church, as her proper Legacy, were ſtolne, and heaped together in that Denne; And why the true man may not challenge his goods where ever hee finde them, or the theefe plead title to the true mans goods by preſcription wee know not.

Anſw. Firſt, wee judge the whole booke an Idolothyte, and whence you gather, that wee confeſſe the contrary of any part of it, as it ſtands apart in relation to that whole, wee know not.

Secondly, that it was taken out of the Maſſe booke, was proved by the confeſſion of King Edward; and other evidences are many; but you ſay, not in ſuch ſenſe as wee object. But rather, è contra Maſſe, &c. added to it, &c. But where to finde ſuch a legacy bequeathed to the Church in the Teſtament of our Lord Jeſus Chriſt, wee could never yet ſee: So that wee rather feare all thoſe formes of prayer, of marriage, burialls, viſitations of the ſick, confirmation, &c. are rather the copper counterfeit coyne, of a well growne Antichriſt, whereby he couſened the Churches, when hee ſtole away the golden Legacy of Chriſt, rather then any part of the true Churches Legacy: and therefore it had been more happy for the Churches that they had never challenged the ſame, but let the theefes preſcription to have been a good plea to hold them ſtill: this further we adde, when we ſay it was taken out of the Maſſe-booke, wee underſtand Maſſe-booke in a large ſenſe, (as it is commonly taken) for to ſpeake narrowly it was collected out of three Popiſh bookes, the firſt part of publique Prayers, exbreviario; the ſecond part, viz. the order of adminiſtring Sacraments, Matrimony, viſiting the ſick and burialls, è Rituali; 3. the order of conſecration in the Supper, the Epiſtles and Goſpels, and Collects, è Miſſali, as the forme of conſecration of Biſhops and Prieſts was taken è Pontificali, as the Author of Altare Damaſc. ſhews, pag. 612.

Thirdly, becauſe thoſe words, Popery is a ſcab, &c. may bee a ſeed of much evill, an Egge out of which a Serpent may bee hatched, if men zealous of mouldy formes may but have time againe to ſet upon it, if the wheele of theſe evill times, (through Gods judgement on this wanton age) turne the Prelates or other zelotes for this Liturgie uppermoſt, wee ſhall therefore crave libertie to examine this ſpeech more narrowly. And becauſe (as it is ſaid) unumquodque ex ſuâ origine rectiſſime judicatur, wee ſhall trace the ſteps of the firſt times and ſo downeward, to ſee what p. 64ſound parts of Liturgie there was, on which this ſcab is ſuppoſed to grow.

1. Our bleſſed Saviour taught his Diſciples a bleſſed forme, which though it may bee lawfully and comfortably uſed, the rather, not being of mans, but the Lords compoſing: yet it is evident hee never appointed his people to uſe it as their onelyonly forme, and therefore the Apoſtles in the primitive Church, in that heavenly prayer, Acts 4. did not attend to the words and forme of this prayer, though they might have this in their eye, as the comon rule and direction how to powre out their prayers to God, for particular things, which may be an everlaſting witneſſe againſt their uſurpations, that will limit the Churches to their formes which the Lord Chriſt would not doe to his owne.

2. In the firſt 300. yeeres after Chriſt, wee read of few formes, that the Churches uſed, and thoſe rather ſhort ejaculations, then ſet formes, but contrarily wee read frequently of the exerciſe of their gifts in prayer. They prayed ſine monitore, quia de pectore, ſaith Tertullian, Tertull. Apol. cap. 30.i. e. They prayed without a Promptour, becauſe from the heart, which as Zephirus obſerves was in oppoſition to the prompted formes then in uſe amongſt the Pagans. Wee read alſo what they prayed for, viz. pro inimicis, pro imperatoribus, pro ſtatu ſeculi▪ pro morà finis, &c. but of any ſet formes we read not. Their perſecutions and dayes of afflictions preſerved them from formalitie in prayer, and taught them how to finde their hearts and knees, and tongues, to poure out their ſoules to God, while under the Altar they were pouring out their blood.

3. But after the Churches had enjoyed peace for ſome ſpace of time, (wherein ſecuritie uſually makes inſenſible, and inſenſ… bleneſſe formall) then indeed wee read of ſet and impoſed formes, which the rather prevailed in regard of the groſſe and palpable ignorance of a blind miniſtry, under a more learned Prelacy, and therefore it is well obſerved by Chemnitius that the third Councell of Carthage decreed this; ut nemo in precibus, &c. viz. that no Miniſter in his prayers either names the Father for the Sonne or the Sonne for the Father, but when hee comes to the Altar, to direct his prayers alwayes to God the Father, and that no man uſe his owne formes, till hee have conferred and ſhewed his formes to men more able, which wee finde ſometime to bee the Synod.

p. 654 After theſe times they added the commemoration of Saints to their Prayers and Letanies,Vid. Chemnit. Ex. de Innoc. Sanctorum. as appears from manifold inſtances, whereof take but this one imputed to Chryſoſtome: Sanctiſſimae Deiparae & ſemper Virginis Mariae, cum omnibus ſanctis, memoriam agentes, nos ipſos & omnem vitam noſtram Chriſto Deo noſtro commendamus. Which Letanies at firſt being uſed more ſeldome at ſome times of the year, afterwards grew into ordinary uſe, to every end of which the people added, Lord have mercy upon us, and Exaudi Domine, We beſeech thee to hear us good Lord.

5 From commemoration of Saints, (being ſo near the brink) they ſoon came on to invocation of them, firſt in private prayers, then in publick, and that by degrees. For firſt, they called upon Chriſt to hear their interceſſions for them. Interceſſionibus Sanctorum tuorum, Salvator, ſalva nos: and thence they fell to direct and immediate invocation of them. Maria Deo ſupplica, ut animas noſtras ſalvet.

6 At laſt they became ſo ſuperſtitious in their Letanies or Liturgies, that praying was magnified above all preaching, and almoſt all preaching was changed into formall, corrupt, and blind praying; and thus it was generally in the Churches, till about the ſixt Century, as (if need were) might be ſhewed at large.

7 Though other Churches were thus over-grown with Forms of Worſhip, yet the Roman Biſhops eſpecially, did multiply Forms and ſuperſtitious▪ Rites exceſſively. Rome being (in Gods ſecret Providence) left to become the very ſeat and throne of Antichriſt. The Biſhops themſelves alſo finding it exceeding hard to bring in the …ligion of Chriſt, without conforming to the Pagan rites, as Caſaubon obſerves. For it appears even in the time of Theodoſius, wherein Chriſtianity was riſen to a great head,Vid. Birth of Hereſies, out of Elaſopolitans Comment. the Senate being ſent unto by him to renounce their Pagan Religion, and receive the law of Chriſt, they returned anſwer that they would not, but that they would obſerve the ancient law Pompilian, to avoid the ruine of the Common-wealth, which they feared might come by the change of Religion. The Roman Biſhops alſo for 400 years together, could never obtain of the Senate, nor multitudes of the Roman Idolaters, to renounce their inveterate Idolatry, and receive the Goſpel. Hence they conformed their Rites and Ceremonies to the Pagan and Idolatrous cuſtomes, the better to allure them to Chriſt according to their carnalll policy. p. 66We finde all the principal parts of the Maſſe to be borrowed from the Idolatrous Pagans, and to have their originall from Numa Pompilius that Conjurer, who lived 700 years before Chriſt, to adorn and deck (as the Biſhops thought) the Religion of Chriſt Jeſus, to the which with much ado at laſt the Romans were converted. To which principall parts, viz. Veſtments, Holy-water, the Confiteor, Organs, Incenſe, Offertory, &c. other deckings were added alſo, as divers Letanies, and the Kurie Elyſon to be ſung nine times, invented by Gregory a Monk at firſt, well-ſtudied in the laws of Numa and Tullus Hoſtilius: Damaſus (as Platina and Sabellius ſhew) inriched it with Gloria Patri, &c. i. e. Glory be to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghoſt. Sergius, with an Agnus Dei, to be ſung three times. Alexander and other Biſhops added the Canon of the Maſſe; others, the Epiſtles and Goſpels: The Graduall and Collects were added by Gelaſius, anno 493. The Gloria in excelſis by Symmachus 508. At laſt came the Hoſt in about 1062. Much more might be ſaid. All which when we conſider, we confeſs we are puſled to diſcern the difference between the ſound part and the ſcab. For if the principal formalities of the Maſſe (out of which our Liturgy was taken; as is confeſſed) aroſe out of a politick puſh to conform the Chriſtian to the Pagan Religion, and the deckings of it, from the itching humor of the Roman buſie Biſhops, admirers of humane inventions and Ceremonies▪ let the Reader then judge what ſound parts are left beſide the ſcab. We do not ſpeak this to condemn every thing for the matter of it that is in the Common-Prayer-book: Yea, we honor the affection and piety of the firſt Reformers, and the godly then, that were glad to hear Prayers in their own to…e, and according to the glimmering light of thoſe times, aymed at the winning of Papiſts to the true Religion by ſuch a Form of Worſhip. But now ſince experience hath taught, it rather hardens them againſt the truth, then draws them toward it; when we ſee the preſſing of it is rather a temptation to conform to Popery, then otherwiſe; we verily beleeve, if they had lived in theſe times of further light, they would have born witneſſe againſt it, as others have done.

Laſtly, though the originall had been good (which yet is contrary) we may anſwer in the words of Peter Martyr, to ſuch as did plead for a lawfull preſence at Maſſe,Pet. Mart. loc. …om▪ de Idol. becauſe the originall was good; who anſwers thus: In hiſoe rebus non origo, &c. In p. 67theſe matters, not the Originall, but the Nature is to be conſidered; for the braſen Serpent had its originall from God, and was honored with miraculous works: yet when abuſed, Piis hominibus redditus eſt deteſtabilis, it became (moſt) loathſome to godly men.

Reply. It is no hard task to ſhew, that our Service-book was reformed in moſt things, according to the pureſt Liturgies which were in uſe in the Church, long before the Maſſe was heard of in the world. And if that could not be ſhewed, yet forms of ſpeech generally taken (we ſpeak not of this or that ſpeciall word or phraſe) is no more defiled by Idolatry, then the light, air, or place where Idolatry is committed, &c.

Anſw. It is juſt cauſe of grief unto us, that this reverend Author ſhould thus uſe the Prelates plea for Surplice and other Ceremonies, to juſtifie this corrupt Liturgy; for theſe were before the Maſſe, and many other Idols of the Papiſts: and though a phraſe or word be not polluted by their uſe of it; yet a needleſs Ceremony, and ſo a deviſed Form of Worſhip, and a bundle of Ceremonious and corrupt Wor…s, muſt needs be polluted by the uſe of them; better to uſe t… Forms of Turks then Papiſts, ſaith Cartw. ſupra.

Reply. Fourthly, put caſe the Miniſter in reading give offence, give unlawfull honor to a thing abuſed to Idolatry, and ſuffer himſelf to be ſinfully limited in reading? what is that to the faithfull? This can be no ground that the people may not joyn, &c.

Anſw. We doe not conclude that they doe ſin, but fearfull we are leſt they may ſo do; all things conſidered in this caſe, as have been before propounded. If indeed the caſe ſtood as formerly it hath done in England, we would have been leſſe ſcrupulous and doubtfull of the matter: but if by the out-breaking of light, after ſo long toleration of the book, we ſee ſo many evill effects of it, and ſee ſuch ſuperſtitious opinions of it increaſing, and ſuch preſſing the ſame to the oppreſſion of the Churches, ſo many fall, ſo many weak ones ſtagger, and look at the example of their Guides: if now when all are called of God to riſe up againſt it with zeal and deteſtation, a Miniſter godly and able will uſe any part of it with offence, &c. we ſuppoſe we had cauſe to fear and leave it doubtfull, whether the godly might lawfully joyn with them therein, and therefore we deſire you to call back your ſharp cenſure of ſuch withdrawing, as you conclude this paſſage withall, or elſe we ſhal appeal to the reverend Aſſembly of Miniſters, and their late and godly Directory herein.

Reply. p. 58Fifthly, If theſe, and ſuch like ſcruples make it unlawfull to joyn in the ordinance of Worſhip, we muſt hold communion with no ſociety under heaven. For may not the brethren which hold all ſtinted Liturgies and ſet Forms unlawfull, ſay with like reaſon, it is not lawfull to joyn with others inconceived Prayers, if they give too little honor to it, as conceiving the other lawful, or ſinfully limiting themſelves to one ſtinted Form, though conceived at firſt by themſelves, &c.

Anſw. We muſt intreat the Chriſtian Reader ſtill to carry in minde with what tenderneſſe we offered our ſelves in this point, and upon what conſiderations we durſt not wholly excuſe and cleare ſuch joyning as the caſe now ſtood, and therefore we think theſe reaſonings would be far differing from the caſe in hand, and we would not be taken ſo as to juſtifie ſuch rigid principles as theſe are. We heartily joyn in the concluſion, that ſuch advancing of ſmall differences, would indeed bring all to confuſion, and we are far (we hope) from any ſuch meaning. If our anſwer in this or any other paſſage, give juſt advantage to ſuch ſeparations, we are heartily ſorry for it; but we hope what hath been ſaid will ſatisfie the ingenuous and Chriſtian Reader.

Reply. Sixthly, we have credibly heard, that you hold fellowſhip with profeſſed rigid ſeparatiſts, without acknowledging of their error, and receive them as members, or communicate with them in the priviledges of the Church, though you profeſſe you approve not their opinion or practice: and if in godly wiſdome you can ſee grounds to joyn with them, we marvail you ſhould be ſo timerous in this particular.

Anſw. Although in many of our Churches we know not that there be any ſuch profeſſed rigid Separatiſts, that reject the Churches of England, as no Churches; and their Miniſters, as no true Miniſters; yet we deny not but ſome ſuch there may bee in ſome of the Churches. Whence we grant it may follow that we can have communion in Gods Worſhip with men of ſeverall judgments, yet we may be juſtly timerous of joyning or approving others to joyn in any part of a corrupt Worſhip, in caſe of ſcandall, &c. we think theſe things have not the ſame face or ſhew of reaſon in them; and therefore ſo long as they live peaceably with us, we can well have fellowſhip with them, as we have alſo with other, that think (it may be) better of the Churches and wayes of it, then there is cauſe, in regard of the corruptions thereof; ſo we be not bound to approve their opinions, nor conform to any of their corrupt practiſes.

Reply. p. 69Seventhly, if to adminiſter in a ſtinted Form be ſcandalous to ſuch as ſeparate, it is ſcandall taken, not given; and we ſhould do it the rather, that they be not confirmed in their error, the truth be not prejudiced, needleſs ſcruples occaſioned, &c.

Anſw. 1 This is from the queſtion, for we diſpute of your Liturgy, not of any Liturgy or ſtinted Form.

2 Take in the caſe in all its circumſtances, (as before declared) and it will appear ſcandall may be given; at leaſt we put the caſe of a ſcandall really given.

3 How far a man in ſome caſes of clear and undoubted truths may do a thing, the rather for ſuch reaſons, though others take offence, we will not diſpute: but if for meat (or by uſe of our liberty by eating of ſuch meat, as another accounts unclean) we may deſtroy the work of God, and therefore muſt not eat fleſh, nor drink wine, nor any thing whereby a brother ſtumble, &c. Rom. 14 14, 15, 20, 21. how dangerous then to uſe ſuch corrupt Forms of Worſhip, or any part thereof, ſo much the rather, when a weak brother ſtumbles at them, we leave it to the Chriſtian Reader to judge, we doubt it will not agree with the rules of charity preſcribed Rom. 14. 1 Cor. 8.