The Buckler of the Faith, Part · Article 24
THE XXIIII. ARTICLE.
We beleeue, that seeing Iesus Christ is giuen vntounto vsus for our sole Aduocate, and that he commandeth vsus to come with confidence vntounto God the Father in his name, and that it is not lawfull for vsus to pray but according to that forme which God hath set down vntounto vsus in his word, that all that which men hauehave imagined, touching intercession of Saints that are dead, is nothing but an abuse and a deceit of Sathan, to make men erre out of the forme of praying well. We also reiect all other meanes which men presume vponupon thereby to redeeme themselues before God, as derogating from the sacrifice of the death and passion of Iesus Christ. Lastly, we hold Purgatory to be an illusion proceeding out of the same shop, from whence also are proceeded monasticall vowes, pilgrimages, prohibition of mariage, and the vse of meates, the ceremoniall obseruation of dayes, auricular Confession, Indulgences, and all other such things whereby men thinke to deserue grace and saluation. Which things we reiect, not onelyonly because of the false opinion of merit which is ioyned vntounto them, but also, because they are humane inuentions, which impose a yoke vponupon mens consciences.
Of Inuocation of Saints.
ARNOVX.
Section. 71 The Sonne of God is the onelyonly Mediator which maketh intercession for vsus, and he alone it is who speaking for vsus cannot be denied or refused; and he onelyonly, without whose mediation all others can preuaile nothing before God; and he onelyonly that neuer ceasseth to intermediate for vsus, and that by his onelyonly and proper merits. But whither do they runne which thinke or imagine, that none others but onelyonly the Sonne of God can implore the bounty and mercy of God by the merits of Christ: seeing they agree with vsus, that we may obtaine all whatsoeuer we aske for our selues in his Name and that we shall not be denied for others?
MOVLIN.
He speaks according to his accustomed manner, which is, neuer to report the truth of our beleefe. We say nothing of all that which he maketh vsus to say; we know well that others besides Iesus Christ may implore the bounty and mercy of God by the merits of Iesus Christ.
ARNOVX.
Section. 72 Why sooner, or rather in this life then in the other, shall we hauehave this credite?
MOVLIN.
This also makes vsus say things farre differing from our beleefe. Our Confession defineth not what we shall do in the life to come, nor whether we shall pray for those that are liuing after vsus vponupon the earth. That is not our difference. The question is, whether when we shall be in heauen, men that are on earth ought to pray vntounto and call vponupon vsus. It is one thing to enquire or to seeke to know what the Saints do in heauen, and another thing to know what we should do here on earth. But M. Arnoux not vnderstanding the question, mixeth those two things together, which are much differing one from the other.
ARNOVX.
Section. 73 HaueHave the Saints in heauen lesse knowledge of our necessities, or lesse charitie then we?
Whether the Saints vnderstand our prayers, and all whatsoeuer is done vponupon earth.
MOVLIN.
The Saints that are in heauen hauehave more charitie then we, and more knowledge of those things which belong or serue to their blessednesse. But it is not necessarie nor conuenient for their blessedness…, that they should hauehave an exact knowledge of all particular things which are done here vppon earth, nor that they should know eueryevery processe that is handled in Courts of Law, the troubles and businesse in a Faire, or for how much eueryevery oxe is sold in a market. I speake not of many filthy & dishonest things: as also of diuers other things which might trouble their blessednesse: as if a father should see the vices and afflictions of his children, one sent to the gallowes, another vponupon a scaffold to be executed, another cast downe into hell, and another kneeling before an Image to pray vntounto it.
The holy Scripture makes it euident vntounto vsus Salomon in the 9. of Ecclesiastes, 5.6. saith, that the dead know not any thing, neither hauehave they any more a reward. And a little after, Neither hauehave they any more a portion for euer in any thing that is done vnderunder the Sunne. And Iob 14.21, speaking of a father that is dead, saith, His sonnes come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiueth it not. And 2. Kings. 22.20. God promiseth king Iosias, to let him go peaceably downe to his graue, that his eyes should not see the euill which God intended to bring vponupon the Iewes.
Againe. If the Saints vnderstood our prayers, it is necessary that they should know the imaginations of our hearts, to know whether we pray with a good affection. But the holy Scripture, 2. Chron. 6.30. saith, that God onelyonly knoweth the hearts of the children of men. It is to no purpose to say that God onelyonly of himselfe knows the hearts of men, & that the Saints know them by reuelation: for besides that this is to diuine and affirme a thing which is vnknowne vntounto vsus, and whereof the Scripture speaketh not, in this distinction there is a contradiction. For they giuegive vsus a reason why the Scripture saith, that the Saints know not our hearts, which is, because God hath giuen them vnderstanding to know them: they say, that they know not our thoughts, because God hath made them know them. As if I should say, I hauehave no money because you gaue me some: by the same reason I may say, that God onelyonly knowes that Iesus Christ died for vsus, because he knoweth it from, and by himselfe; but we know it not, but by reuelation. He that hath taught a thing to another man, cannot say that he onelyonly knoweth it. I confesse that God sometimes reuealed the thoughts and counsels of some men vntounto his Prophets: but that knowledge was seldome giuen vntounto the Prophets, and onelyonly in as much as it was necessary for the execution of their charge. And 2. Kings 4.47, Elisaeus saith that God had hidden the death of his hostesse the Sunamites sonne from him; how much more the hearts of all men? And by consequence, that cannot be alledged for the Saints that are dead, to whom God hath not giuen any charge in the Church. For to say that men giuegive the Saints charges and offices in Paradise, making one the protector of women in childbed, another a Physition to heale the toothach, another to cure horses, another Patron of a towne or a whole countrie, is a thing no lesse absurd then if the flies should take vponupon them to distribute and giuegive the charges and offices of the Empire of Rome to whom they would.
And this may serue also for answer to the argument drawne from the example of the Angels, amongst whom the Gospell teacheth vsus, there is ioy for the conuersion of a sinner, Luke 15.10. God hath appointed the Angels to be gardians of the faithfull. Psal. 34.7. The Angell of the Lord encampeth round about them that feare him, and deliuereth them: and Heb. 1.14. They are ministring spirits, sent forth to minister for their sakes which shall be heires of saluation. It is no maruell then that God reuealeth vntounto them the interior repentance of a sinner, and that they reioyce at the effects thereof which appeare outwardly.
To thinke that the Angels and the Saints in the presence of God, know all things, or to say with Pope Gregorie in the three and thirtieth chapter and fourth booke of his Dialogues,Quid est quod ibi nesciant, qui scientem omnia sciunt? What know not they there, where they know him which knoweth all things? is to giuegive their rash coniectures for lawes, and without the word of God, to speake of that which is done in heauen, as if they came newly from thence: and it is contrary to the word of God. For Iesus Christ, Mat. 18.10. saith, that The Angels alwayes behold the face of the Father which is in heauen: and yet they know not when the day of iudgement shall be, Marke 13.32. By the publication of the Gospel they hauehave learned things which before they knew not. For Saint Paul, Ephes. 3.10. speaking of the publication of the Gospell among the Gentiles, saith, that it was done, to the intent that the manifold wisedome of God might be made knowne vntounto principalities and powers in heauenly places. Whereupon Saint Peter in his first Epistle, 1.12. saith, that The Angels desire to see those things; as desiring to learne them.
Touching Pope Gregories words, they may well be borne withall, if he speake of the knowledge that the Saints hauehave of things belonging to their blessed state. But if he speake of a general knowledge of all things, his words are as full of absurdity; as if one shold say, that he which seeth Philip, necessarily seeth all that which Philip sees. If standing on the ground I see a man vponupon the top of a steeple, do I see all that which he seeth? If the sight of him that looketh, is to be measured according to the sight of him on whom he looketh, he that sees a blind man shall see nothing at all.
To be short, to affirme that the knowledge of the Saints should be of the like extent that the sight of God is, it is to make the creature infinite. For first, it is necessary that the Saints (in that respect) should know the infinitie of Gods essence, and in a finite spirit should containe an infinite knowledge: and also that in a moment they should know all things: and that Saint Nicolas in an instant should see all the thoughts of men, and vnderstand all their prayers. Things which repugne the essence of creatures, whose essence as it consisteth in a currant for a time, so the actions thereof are successiue, and are done one after another, and not all in a moment. The ancient Fathers speake of the state of the Saints, and of the memory of things which they hauehave seene and knowne in this life, and of the knowledge which they hauehave had of things here below, sometimes with certainly, and some times doubtfully and vncertainly. Saint Hierome *Licet possit dici, quod in coelo nouo, & in terra noua, omnis conuersationis pristinae memoria deleatur, ne hoc ipsum pars malorum sit, prioris angustiae recordari.vponupon the sixty fiue chapter of Esay saith, It may be said, that in the new heauen and in the new earth, all the memory of forepassed conuersation is defaced: lest that the same might be an affliction vntounto the Saints, to remember affliction past. And in the Epitaph for Nepotian he saith: We know that our friend Nepotian is with Christ, and in the company of the Saints. And yet he saith that Nepotian neither saw nor vnderstood that which he said and did vponupon the earth.**Quicquid dixero quia ille non audit mutum videtur. Cum quo loqui non possumus de eoloqui nō desinamus. Felix Nepotianus qui haec non videt, qui haec non audit. foreign. All this that I say in a manner is vaine, because he heares it not. And let vsus not ceasse to speake of Nepotian, with whom we can speake no more. And, blessed Nepotian which neither seeth nor heareth these things.
Gregory Nazianzen in his Orations maketh many apostrophes, and sundry oratory compellations, not onelyonly to the Saints that are dead but also to things without life. In his first Oration against Iulian, after he hath spoken to heauen and earth, he speaketh also to the soule of Constantine, dead long before, saying, * Hearken ô thou soule of great Constantine, if thou hast any feeling: not knowing whether he vnderstood him or not. He speaketh also with the same vncertainty of the soule of Basil.
The booke of the Spirit and the Soule attributed to Saint Augustine in the**Ibi quidem sunt spiritus defunctorum vbi nō vident nequeaudiunt quae aguntur aut eueniunt in ista vita hominibus. Ita tamen est eis cura de viuis, quāquam quid agant omnino nesciant, quemadmodum est nobis cura de mortuis, quāuis quid agant vtique nesciamus. nine and twentieth chapter saith, that the spirits of the dead are in a place where they neither see not heare that which is done, nor what happeneth in this life vntounto men. Neuerthelesse, they hauehave a care of the liuing, although they know not by any meanes what they do, in the same manner that we hauehave a care of the dead, although we know not what they do. Yet he saith, that it may be that the dead know something that is done here on earth, by the report of those which die here and go vntounto them: or that the Angels tell them somewhat, or that God reuealeth something vntounto them, not all, but that onelyonly which they must vnderstand. Thus this Doctor diuineth, speaking by coniectures onelyonly, as men do when they speake without the word of God. All this is taken out of S. Augustines booke, of the care that we ought to hauehave or the dead where he holds for an assured opinion that if the dead knew what is done here, his good mother Monicha would not hauehave forgotten him.
There are diuers places found in Chrysostome wherein he saith, that the Saints do not yet enjoy celestiall glory; and others wherein he saith that they do enioy it. And there are some places found in him, wherin he seemeth to approue the inuocation of Saints, and others in much greater number, wherein he condemneth it. Which is a proofe, that of malice some places hauehave bene thrust into the writings of that holy man.
Whether Iesus Christ is our onelyonly Mediator and aduocate.
ARNOVX.
Section. 74 Places of the Scripture set downe in the margent of the Confession. 1. Tim: 2.5. For there is one onelyonly God, and one onelyonly mediator betweene God and man, which is the man Iesus Christ, who gaue himselfe a ransome for all men.
In this place the word Aduocate is not there, and the word Mediator is an equiuocation, for that it may be taken for a mediator of intercession, and for a mediator of redemption. Besides this, the text in the Ministers Bible is false: for in the Greeke, (which is the originall,) the word onelyonly is not there.
MOVLIN.
The word Aduocate is not in the place of the 1. to Tim. but it is found in Ioh. 2.1. his first Epistle. If any man sinne, we hauehave an aduocate with the Father, Iesus Christ the iust. It is from thence that our Confession hath taken the word Aduocate. And if that word were not there, yet by the word Aduocate we vnderstand nothing but a Mediator, which is the very word vsed by Saint Paul. Touching that which Master Arnoux saith, that the word mediator is an equiuocation, he accuseth Saint Paul to hauehave equiuocated. He saith, that the word mediator may be taken for a mediator of intercession, or for a mediator of redemption. But the coupling of these together, God is one, and the Mediator is one, confuteth this distinction. For as the Apostle maketh not two sorts of Gods, so he alloweth not of two sorts of mediators towards God. If it be lawfull to make distinctions vpō the word Mediator, why not vponupon the word God, and so to induce diuers Gods? For although we do not denie that the Saints pray for vsus, yet they are not called mediators of intercession, because we call him the Mediator of intercession that receiueth our prayers to present them vntounto God: which the Saints cannot do, because they vnderstand not our prayers, as we hauehave already proued.
Adde hereunto, that this distinction maketh the Saints to be but mediators of intercession, contrary to the Church of Rome, which beleeueth that the Saints do not onelyonly mediate for vsus, but also pay, merite, and satisfie for vsus. Witnesse the doctrine of Indulgences or pardons, by the which the Pope distributeth vntounto Christians the superabundance of the satisfactions of the Saints to serue thē to obtaine remission of sins before God. Witnesse also the Masse, which asketh saluation of God by the merits of the Saints,Quorum meritis precibus{que} rogamus, &c. as if they had merited for vsus. Whereupon Bellarmine also in his first booke and fourth chapter of Indulgences, makes no difficulty to say, that the Saints in some sort are our redeemers.
Now for the imputation laid on vsus, to hauehave falsified this place, and to hauehave put in our text, one onelyonly God, and one onelyonly Mediator, otherwise then it is in the Greeke, where the word onelyonly is not found, this accusation argues, that our aduersarie either hath no vnderstanding in the Greeke, or else that he hath no conscience. According to the Greeke, it is thus,foreign. There is one God, and one Mediator. Is not that as much to say, as There is one only God, and one only mediator? And when we translate, There is one onelyonly God, our aduersaries dislike it not; but when in the words following we translate, There is one onelyonly Mediator, they accuse vsus of falshood; and yet the manner of speaking is all one in the Greeke, and in the same line. The French Bible translated by the Doctors of Louain iustifieth vsus therein; for in the third chapter of the same Epistle, verse. 2. Where there is vnius vxoris virum, they hauehave translated the husband of one onelyonly wife, because that foreign in Greek, as also vnus in Latin is as much as alone, and by consequence onelyonly.
The ancient Doctours did not reiect this word alone in this matter.*Ipse qui solus praestat & ego sum cui impetrare debetur, famulus eius qui eum solum obsecro. Tertullian in the thirtieth chapter of his Apologie saith, We cannot aske these things of any other but of him of whom I know I shall obtaine them. For also it is he onelyonly which granteth it, and I am he who am to be heard, that am his seruant, which call vponupon him onelyonly.
Origen in his eight tome against Celsus, saith,*foreign We must pray to none but to God onelyonly for all things, and to his onelyonly Sonne.
Saint Ambrose in his oration vponupon the death of Theodosius, correcting that which he had said in the booke of Widowes, made when he first beganne to be a Christian:*Sed tamen tu solus Domine inuocādus es. Thou neuerthelesse, O Lord, oughtest onelyonly to be called vponupon, and praied vntounto.
As touching making Saints our mediators, Saint Augustine in many places is expresly against it: in his two and twentieth Treatise vponupon Saint Iohn, That is it which thy Sauiour saith,*Non est quo eas nisi ad me, non est quo eas nisi per me. Lib. 2. cap 8. Nam si esset mediator Paulus essent vtique & caeteri Apostoli, ac sic multi mediatores essent nec ipsi Paulo constaret ratio qua dixerat vnus Deus vnus mediator. Thou hast no where to go but vntounto me, thou canst not go but by me.
And in his epistle against Parmenian he saith, If Saint Paul was a mediator, so should al the other Apostles be mediators; and so there should be diuers mediators: and Saint Paul also should hauehave mistaken himselfe in saying, that there is but one God and one Mediator. You must note,*Non dixit habetis, nec me habetis dixit, nec ipsū Christum habetis dixit, sed Christum posuit non se: & habemus dixit, non habetis. Maluit se ponere in numero peccatorum vt haberet aduocatum Christum, quam ponere se pro Christo aduocatum. that in that chapter he speakes but of a mediator of intercession, for he disputed against Parmenian, that had called the Bishop mediator betweene God and men.
And in the first Treatie of the first Epistle of Saint Iohn, the second chapter, vponupon these words of Saint Iohn, We hauehave an Aduocate with the Father; he saith thus: This great person said not, You hauehave an Aduocate with the Father, but, if any man hath sinned, we hauehave an Aduocate with the Father; he saith not, You hauehave, nor also, you hauehave me, nor, you hauehave Christ: but he hath put Christ, and not himselfe, and said, we hauehave, and not, you hauehave: he chose rather to put himselfe into the number of sinners, that he might hauehave Christ for an Aduocate, then to put himselfe for an Aduocate in stead of Christ, and so to be found among the proud damned crue.
Among ancient writers there are some places found which speake of the intercession of the Saints. There are also wishes found that were made by liuing men, that the Saints would pray for them: but we hauehave already said, that our difference is not, whether the Saints pray for vsus, but whether we must pray vntounto, and call vponupon them. And although that in ancient Writers there are particular examples to be found,Concil. Carthag. 3. Can. 23. Cum ad altare assistetur semper ad patrem dirigatur oratio. who by disordered rules called vponupon Saints, yet it is not long time since the inuocation of Saints hath bene put into the common Seruice, and is established by lawes and rules of Councels.
But alwayes they are such men that speake, in whom our Aduersaries themselues note diuers errours: and therefore their allegation makes rather against then for the inuocation of Saints. Hauing the holy Scripture for vsus, it sufficeth vsus; wherein our Aduersaries themselues confesse, that the inuocation of Saints is not commanded: and now they beginne to say, that it is not necessary: contradicting Pope Innocent the third,Necessarium nobis est in via sanctorum suffragium. who in the third booke of the mysteries of the Masse, chapter 9. saith, That the Suffrages of Saints are necessary for vsus, as long as we are in the way.
ARNOVX.
Section. 75 Iohn 1. Epistle 2.1. If any man sinne, we hauehave an Aduocate with the Father, Iesus Christ the iust, and he is the reconciliation for our sinnes.
He saith not, that we hauehave but one Aduocate, he is farre from that. But speaking of the excellencie of the Aduocate, without whom all the others are not to be receiued; he saith, We hauehave an Aduocate, without excluding others.
That the Saints are not our Aduocates, and that the Church of Rome inuocateth diuers Saints that neuer were, and whose holinesse is very questionable.
MOVLIN.
Whosoeuer knoweth what it is to be an Aduocate with God, knoweth also that the same tide belongeth not vntounto the Saints. He is an Aduocate with God for vsus, who receiueth our prayers, & presenteth our requests to God, and accōpanieth them with his intercession. The Saints vnderstand not our prayers, as we hauehave already proued, and by consequence cannot present them to God. And if they vnderstood our prayers, God hath receiued them before the Saints hauehave any leisure to ioyne their recommendations with them. And in the same place, Saint Iohn hauing said that we hauehave an aduocate with God, addeth, For it is he which is the reconciliation for our sinnes: Shewing how he is our Aduocate, that is, because he maketh reconciliation for our sinnes. Then to be an Aduocate for sinners, is to be their reconciliator; and if Iesus Christ be our onelyonly reconciliator, then also he is our onelyonly Aduocate.
Our Sauiour Iesus Christ decideth the question in manifest words, Iohn 14.6. saying, I am that way, and that truth, and that life, no man cometh to the Father but by me. Then not by the Saints, nor by the intercession of creatures.
If the Saints be aduocates in heauen, who hath made them such? who hath receiued them for such? who commanded vsus to pray vntounto them? HaueHave children any need to vse intercessors for them to speake vntounto their fathers? And seeing that God frames and inspires our prayers, must we hauehave intercessors to recommend that prayer vntounto God which he himselfe hath put into our hearts and mouthes? If I present my prayer vntounto God by the intercession of Iesus Christ onelyonly, shall my prayer be lesse acceptable vntounto God, then if I had employed the Saints to make intercession for me?
If we throughly consider of this matter, it will be found that our aduersaries seeking to go to God by the intercession of the Saints, draw mens spirits into an endlesse labyrinth. For they say they go to God by meanes of the Saints, but in effect they go to the Saints by Gods meanes: for they confesse that God reuealeth our prayers to the Saints. Then they bring in God aduising the Saints, as if he should say to Saint Francis, Blessed Saint, know that such an one that liues below in the earth in such a place, asketh such and such things of thee, whereof I tell thee, to the end that thou shouldest pray vntounto me for him, and then I will take aduice whether I will heare thee or not. Which is an hatching of goodly conceptions, which make God mediator to the Saints, rather then the Saints mediators to God.
Now if by the Saints we go to Iesus Christ, and if they be mediators to the Mediator, the prayers that we shall make to the Saints shall first go to God, and from God to the Saints, and from the Saints to Iesus Christ, and from Iesus Christ to God. A man that is in danger of drowning, may sinke foure times at the least before his prayer shall hauehave passed through so many hands.
And yet there is some difficultie, for before we make the Saints our mediators, we must be well assured that they are Saints. Now the church of Rome calleth vponupon many Saints that neuer liued in the world; and many whose blessednesse may iustly be called in question.
The three Kings, Saint Longinus that pierced Christs side: Saint Martiall cosin to Saint Peter, that waited on the table when Iesus Christ celebrated the Eucharist, that draue Pagan religion out of France, in the time of the Gothes, when there were no Gothes in France: Saint Vrsula daughter to the King of England (when there was no King in England) captaine of an army of eleuen thousand Virgins: Saint Katherine daughter to Costus King of Alexandria, when there was no King in Alexandria, who in the Emperor Maxentius time, conuerted Queene Faustina and fifty Philosophers: are persons that neuer liued in the world, as we may easily proue, and whose liues (by Baronius confession, in his booke of Martyrs) are stuffed with a number of fables. The witnesses which they produce for their liues, are Ʋsuard, Simeon Metaphrastus, Molanus, Euthymius, the Calendar of the Grecians, and such new fabulous authors, which Baronius wholly contradicts. But no good ancient author that liued fiue hundred yeares after the time which is named, wherein they say these imagined Saints should liue, doth speake of them. Baronius maketh account that Saint George and Saint Christopher are symbolicall pictures, in the same sort that we paint the vertues: and yet men call vponupon these Saints; and it is found that Saint George was an Arian Bishop, enemy to Athanasius. The like of Saint Margaret, whom the diuell swallowed downe into his belly, and burst therewith, which is a kind of lying in childbed, and therefore they reade her Legend to women lying in childbed. They make these Saints to liue vnderunder kings that neuer were; and in a time and in a country wherein there were no Martyrs, nor the name of Christianity knowne. They begin to be borne sixe or seuen hundred yeares after they died. There are a thousand absurd and ridiculous actions attributed vntounto them. A man should sooner make cleane Augias stable, then cleare the liues of these Saints of fabulous tales.
Adde to these imagined Saints, the Saints which the Popes canonize, and place in the rolle of Saints, commanding the Church of Rome to call vponupon them,Lib. 1. Sacr. Cerem. Sect. 6. cap. 1. Papa tunc quodammodo cogebatur ad canonisandam quendam contra suam opinionem, & propterea protestabatur. and attribute an holy day vntounto them. An innouation whereof there is not one footstep to be found in all antiquity. The cause is pleaded in the Popes Consistory, and sometimes it happeneth that the Saint for whom they pleade, loseth his cause, and hath not men that pleade well for him: sometimes he partly wins his cause, and is declared to be blessed, which is a degree to sanctification, insomuch that many Saints are much bound and beholding to the Popes. And the booke of Sacred Ceremonies saith, that sometimes it happeneth that the Pope is constrained to canonize some Saints against his will: and that, for that cause at this day he yet maketh protestation to discharge his conscience.*Cap. 1. & 2. de reliquijs & sanctorum inuocatione. The Popes, Innocent the third, and Alexander the third forbid calling vponupon any Saints without the Popes approbation. But how many Saints are called vponupon, of whose holinesse the Pope neuer made declaration, and of whom he neuer heard speaking?
To acknowledge those for Saints with certainty of faith, a man must be of a very light beleefe: seeing that all those which say that the Pope cannot erre in faith, confesse that he may erre in matter of fact, and that he may be deceiued, Now the canonization is made at the solicitation of Princes, or of Prelates, or of Commonwealths, with manifest dealing vnderhand, and dependeth vponupon the honesty and vertue of him that is canonized; which is a question which consisteth vponupon information, wherein men may vse deceit and false witnesse, because thereon depends a profit and aduantage to some towne or village, by the assembling and repairing of people to visite a new Saint, who presently doth miracles.
Chap. 26. of the first book of the Institution.Touching this matter, Cotton the Iesuite saith, that to doubt that those (whom the vicar of Iesus Christ hath declared to be blessed) are not Saints, it is to make a challenge against the booke of life, to oppose against the manifestation of the booke of Predestination, and to belie the booke with seuen seales which was opened by the Angell. Words which he placeth rather to make ostentation of his high conceits, then for any beleefe that he hath of that which he saith. For a man must be a flatterer in the highest degree,…. .1 … to make the Pope beleeue that the role of his Canonizations is the booke of life, or the booke sealed with seuen seales, whereof there is mention Apocalips 5.1. And it is hardly to be thought, that the Pope should be assured of another mans predestination, seeing he is not assured of his owne: there being so many Popes which our aduersaries themselues say are damned. By this meanes a man registred among the damned, puts whom he will among the Saints.
Experience manifestly sheweth it: for the Popes oftentimes put not those into the role of Saints that hauehave most conformed their liues according to the word of God, but those that supported and aduanced the Papall Empire, as Thomas of Canterbury, and Anselmus, who suffered not for the defence of any of the Articles of the Christian faith, but for the inuestitures and other rights and temporall profits which the Pope attributed to himselfe in England. From this spring it floweth, that those that hauehave sought to kill and to murther kings, are at this day put into the role of Martyrs. By this meanes Saint Dominicke became a Saint, who for the maintenance of the Papacy caused diuerse thousands of good Christians to be massacred,*Antoninus Archiep. Flor. Parte 3. Tit. 23. in vita Catharinae Senensis. Pater Dominicus in adiutorium sumpsit quasdam deuotas personas zelantes pro fide, quae corporaliter illos haereticos gladio materiali expugnarent. preaching the croysado, to roote out the true faithfull people, which then were iniuriously termed Albigenses, in the same manner as we are called Huguenots, because we receiue not, nor allow of any other doctrine then that of Iesus Christ and the Apostles. This is that Saint which Saint Antoninus Archbishop of Florence compared with Iesus Christ, and found but very little inequality betweene him and Iesus Christ.
ARNOVX.
Section. 76 Contrary places of Scripture. Iames 5.14. Is any sicke among you, let him call for the Priests of the Church, and let them pray for him. And 16. Pray one for another, that you may be healed. Colos. 1.3. We giuegive all thanks for you vntounto God, which is the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ, alwayes praying for you.
Here are diuers aduocates: Then Iesus Christ is not giuen vntounto vsus for our onelyonly Aduocate: and if praying here on earth one for another, do no way preiudice his office of Aduocate, how and wherefore should the Saints praying in heauen diminish the glory of his intercession? But rather is it not greater, seeing that all their prayers are grounded vponupon his merits?
That the mutuall prayers of the liuing, praying one for another makes nothing for inuocation of Saints that are dead.
MOVLIN.
M. Arnoux will proue, that the Saints pray for vsus in heauen, which is not in controuersie betweene vsus. The Saints may pray generally for the Church, without knowing the thoughts and the necessities of particular persons.
But let vsus see how he proues it. He produceth three places out of the Scripture, which speak of the prayers which the liuing make one for another. Which is nothing to the purpose. For here the question is not touching the prayers of the liuing, which God hath commanded to be made, & which are made by those which particularly and mutually know our necessities. But the question is here touching the prayers which the Saints that are dead make for the liuing, whose particular necessities they know not, and we know not what commandement God hath giuen them touching the same. Moreouer when we recommend our selues to the mutuall prayers of the faithfull one for another, it is a reciprocall dutie among vsus, which is not so betweene vsus and the Saints.
And withall, when we pray our neighbours to pray for vsus, we do no religious seruice vntounto them. We kneele not downe before them in the Church. We do not acknowledge them to be the searchers of our hearts. We esteeme them not to be our Patrons or gardians. We light not vp candles before them. We are well assured that they vnderstand vsus when we speake vntounto them. To be short, the prayer of the liuing one for another hath no affinity with the intercession and calling vponupon dead Saints.
If a man should aske whether the liuing praying one for another may be called aduocates with God, I say, that the word of God giues them not that title, to the language or speech whereof it is requisite for vsus to be conformable. It giueth that title to Iesus Christ onelyonly, because that to be a mans aduocate, he must exactly know the cause, and the depth of a mans griefe: & must not only intreate the Iudge for the party, but also debate and defend his parties cause to be iust and well grounded. Now there is none but Iesus Christ to whom this appertaineth. For men praying one for another, do not well know the ground of their neighbours griefe, because they know not their hearts; nor the nature and greatnesse of their sinnes, nor of their repentance. And they cannot argue with God touching our cause, because they hauehave nothing to satisfie and pay for vsus. Their prayer for vsus is a simple supplication, and not an action of an Aduocate. There is no body but Iesus Christ who pleading our cause, can confute the diuels accusations, which is that accuser spoken of in the twelfth of the Reuelation, which accuseth vsus day and night before God.
Of the credit and reputation of the Saints in heauen.
ARNOVX.
Section. 77 In the same Article somewhat lower. All that which men hauehave imagined of the Saints that are dead, is but an abuse and a deceit of Sathan.
They thinke to make a sacrifice of praise to Iesus Christ, by giuing him credit (as they suppose) by the excluding of all his seruants, which should be hardly welcome into heauen, and but meanely entertained, if they had lost the credit they had vponupon earth.
MOVLIN.
The question betweene vsus and our aduersaries is twofold; one, whether the Saints know our hearts; the other, whether we must call vponupon, and pray vntounto them. These two questions M. Arnoux toucheth not, but moueth a third, which is not in controuersie, to know whether the Saints pray for vsus in heauen.
This discourse, although from the purpose, is neuerthelesse stuffed with prety conceits: he saith, that the Saints should be hardly welcome into heauen, and but meanly entertained, if they had lost the credit that they had vponupon earth. This diuinitie is delicate, and serues but for those that are of generous spirits, whereby he placeth Saints in Paradise, that are not welcome thither. For it is certaine, that there are many Saints in Paradise that are vnknowne to vsus; and many, that hauing liued holily, hauehave bene forgotten, or defamed after their deaths: in such manner, that it resteth in the power of the liuing to make a Saint, whether he be welcome or not into heauen. If men care not whether they serue them, and presently forget them, then it is maruell that such a Saint is suffered to enter into Paradise, and that the gate is not shut against him, seeing he cannot stand God in stead with his credit on earth. For Saint Peter at the gate might aske him, What account art thou of on earth? hast thou any of credit in thy country? For God hath need of Saints that are of credit among men. What should Saints do in Paradise, to whom men burne no tapers on earth? Yet M. Arnoux will hauehave those Saints to enter therein, but to be hardly welcome thither, and to receiue a disgrace at their entring into heauen. Therefore we hauehave reason to pittie Abraham, Moses, and Dauid, whose credits are much diminished, so farre as that at this day he should be laughed at that should say, Saint Moses, or Saint Abraham. They passe onelyonly in the prease among the Patriarkes. No man makes any particular prayer vntounto them. No man lights the least waxe candle that is before Abraham the father of the faithfull. They speake of Saint Geneuesses and Saint Anthonies Masses, but not of Saint Moses nor of Saint Abrahams Masses. And eueryevery Saint hath his charge, one of a sicknesse, another of a towne: but Moses and Abraham neuer receiued any charge or commission from men. This also is iniurious against the Popes: for I see not that Innocent the fourth, Boniface the eight, nor Alexander the sixt, which were great men on earth, keepe their credits after their deaths. Therefore they are hardly welcome into heauen, and were but meanly entertained there.
Yet M. Arnoux should be borne withall, for that by a recreatiue dexteritie he likeneth or compareth the kingdome of heauen to the formes and complements of the Courts of Popes and Kings. From thence it proceedeth that the Papists dresse God the Father like the Pope. From hence it cometh that father Gonteri called Iesus Christ the Dolphin of heauen.Barradius in Concordiam Euangelicam. Tom 1. lib. 6. …. 11 Fortassis Domine, ne tuae coelesti curiae veniret in dubium cui potius occurreret, tibi Domino suo, an ipsi Dominae suae. And that the Iesuite Barradius made that goodly obseruation, after Anselmus, who asketh of Iesus Christ, Why he tooke not his mother with him when he ascended vp into heauen. But the answer is of his owne deuising, saying: It may be, Lord, for feare lest thy heauenly Court should be in doubt which of the two they should go to meete first, whether thee Lord, or her which is their Lady. Then it was well aduised of him to leaue her behind him on earth. But lest any man of a hard beleefe might doubt that which is said before, the Iesuite brings forth Aristotle to helpe him.
Proofe of Inuocation of Saints by Aristotle.
ARNOVX.
Section. 78 These seruants of God should be depriued of one part of humane felicitie, which consisteth, (as Aristotle noteth in his Morals,) in the care and remembrance which the soules of the dead should hauehave of their frends which they leaue vponupon the earth.
MOVLIN.
The place in Aristotle which he alledgeth is in the first of his Ethickes, 11. chap: where there is nothing of all that which M. Arnoux makes him say. For in all that chapter,foreign, Aristotle disputeth, whether the affaires of the liuing touch or concerne their parents and freinds dead, whereof he speaketh so vncertainely, that he saith, that it is to be doubted whether the dead hauehave any feeling or participation either of good or euill; and in the end concludeth like a man that had no sight therein at all, That if the affaires of the liuing concerne the dead, it is very little, and not of force to alter their beatitude. This place therefore is falsly alledged.M. Arnoux falsification. It was ill aduised of him to take on him to teach vsus what the blessednesse and knowledge of the Saints in heauen is, by the coniectures of a heathen Philosopher; and much more, to imagine that a part of the felicitie of the Saints consisteth in hauing a remembrance of their friends that they left behind them vpō the earth. For if the remembrance of their prosperitie and vertue augmenteth the blessednesse of the Saints that are in heauen, the remembrance of their aduersities, and of their vices will also diminish their felicitie. Yet this doth not stretch the care and the knowledge of the Saints but vntounto those whom they knew here vponupon earth, and left them behind them liuing in the world, which is a restraining of their knowledge into very streight limits.
ARNOVX.
Section. 79 Places of Scripture quoted in the margent of the Confession, Acts. 10.25. and 26, where it is said, that Cornelius met Peter, Peter lifted him vp, saying, Stand vp, for I am a man.
MOVLIN.
Places of Scripture cut off in the middle by M. Arnoux.This place is set downe in the margent of our Confession, to confute all the religious seruice and adoration that men giuegive to creatures: which if M. Arnoux had not cited by halues, and had not taken away the words wherin the force of that place consisteth, eueryevery man might hauehave perceiued how fitly it was alledged. Thus the text hath: As Peter came in, Cornelius met him, and falling downe at his feete, worshipped him, but Peter tooke him vp saying, For euen I my selfe am a man. M. Arnoux hath cut off these wordes, he fell downe at his feet and worshipped him. And see here the like falsification.
ARNOVX.
Section. 80 And Acts. 14.15. Paul and Barnabas said, Men why do ye these things? we also are men subiect to the same condition.
MOVLIN.
Places of Scripture cut in the middle by M. ArnouxYou omit that which is said a little before, that they of Lystria would hauehave offered sacrifice to Barnabas and Paul, as if they had bene gods: which the said Apostles would not suffer them to do.
ARNOVX.
Section. 81 And Apocalips 19 10. And I fell before his feet to worship him, but he said to me, See thou do it not, I am thy fellow seruant, worship God.
All these three places teach, that we must not giuegive vntounto men that worship which belongs vntounto God, nor to liuing men, the honour which we owe vntounto the Saints that already enioy part of his glory. Where then is Sathans deceit, in the adoration of Saints?
Confutation of the Inuocation of Saints by the holy Scriptures.
MOVLIN.
Our Confession condemneth the intercession of Saints, that is, it condemneth those which imploy them for intercessors, and pray them to be intercessors for them: which prayer is a religious worship. Now the Church of Rome commandeth the adoration of Saints and their reliques, but setteth downe distinctions of adoration, one proper to God, which they call Latria, the other (which is referred to Saints) they call Dulia; which are both religious worships, and an act of religion. For the inuocation of Saints which is vsed in the Church of Rome, is a part of the publike Seruice; and when men pray kneeling before their Images, they hauehave their recourse vntounto them, as to those to whom men owe a religious seruice, that know their hearts, and that hauehave power to heare them.
Against this abuse our Confession quoteth these three places of Scripture, wherein are condemned, the worship which Cornelius would hauehave giuen to Peter, that which the Lystrians would hauehave giuen to Paul, and that which Iohn would hauehave giuen to the Angell. In which places there is no mention made of two sorts of worshipping, but generally all religious worshipping of creatures is forbidden. And withall there is no apparence, that Cornelius a man which feared God, was so dull to thinke Saint Peter to be the soueraigne God, or that an equall honour (due to the soueraigne God,) belonged vntounto him. Touching Saint Iohn, that would hauehave adored the Angell, that spake vntounto him, for the which the Angell rebuked him, saying, Take heede thou do it not, I am thy fellow seruant, worship God: you must know, that twise Saint Iohn would hauehave worshiped the Angell, one Reuel. 19.10. the other 22.9. And that after the first time that the Angell rebuked him, saying Worship God, I am thy fellow seruant, it is an euident proofe, that the second time when Saint Iohn would hauehave worshiped him, he knew well that it was not God, seeing the Angell told him so before: but being afraid, he would hauehave giuen him some inferiour worship, which neuerthelesse the Angell refused. If that Angell had bene a Romish Catholike, he would hauehave spoken to Saint Iohn in this manner: The worship which thou giuest me, is too high for me, I will be content with a meaner worship, and an adoration of Dulia: for that of Latria belongeth onelyonly vntounto God. But the Angell had not learned so farre. So when the Orthodoxe Diuines called the Arians Idolaters because they worshipped Iesus Christ,Reade Athanasius in the life of S. Anthony. whom they held to be but a creature; the Arians might well hauehave excused themselues by saying, that they worshipped Iesus Christ with an inferiour worship. But then they acknowledged but one religious worship, and that due to God onelyonly.
2 Saint Iames the Apostle, 1.6. will hauehave vsus to pray in faith and wauer not. But the prayer made to Saints cannot be made in faith, seeing that God hath not commanded it in his word. For faith is by hearing of the word of God, Rom. 10.17. Now that prayer vntounto Saints is not commanded in the word of God, M. Cotton the Iesuite in the first booke of his Institution, in the chapter of Inuocation of Saints, confesseth it saying: Touching a commandement to pray vntounto, and to call vponupon the Saints, the Church neuer taught that there was euer any such commandement. Then if it be not a commandement of God, it is a commandement of men: seeing that in the publicke Seruice of the Romish Church, and in the Letanies, the Saints are called vponupon, the people are bound thereunto, and it is not in any particular mans power to dispense with himselfe therein.
3 The Apostle Saint Paul, Rom. 10.14. maintaineth, that we cannot call vponupon any other then on him in whom we beleeue, saying; How shall they call on him, in whom they hauehave not beleeued? Our Creed teacheth vsus to beleeue in God, Father, Sonne, and holy Ghost. And Iohn 14.1. You beleeue in God, beleeue also in me. Then it is manifest, that Saint Paul without exception reproueth all inuocation of creatures. And if any man will induce a second religious inuocation, he ought to proue it by the word of God.
4 The same Apostle, Galat. 4.8. saith, Then when ye knew not God, ye did seruice vntounto them which by nature are not gods. The Church of Rome seruing Saints and Angels, serueth those who by their nature are no gods. Now it is to be noted, that in the Greeke there is foreign, that is to say, you giuegive Dulia, which is the seruice which the Church of Rome giueth vntounto Saints. The Apostle reproueth the Galathians for giuing Dulia to any other but to God.
5 The Scripture is full of places which command vsus to addresse all our prayers vntounto God. The Apostles desired Iesus Christ saying, Teach vsus to pray, and he said vntounto them,Luke 11.1.2. When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heauen. We must teach this lesson to those that pray vntounto Saints, and say vntounto them, When you pray, say, Our Father which art in heauen. God in the Psalme 50.15. saith, Call vponupon me in the day of trouble, and I will deliuer thee: and in the same Psalme, verse 14. Offer vntounto God thanksgiuing, and pay thy vowes vntounto the most High. How many are there in the Church of Rome, that make vowes to Saints, or that vow to go on pilgrimage to them, or to offer vntounto them? Deut. 6.13. Thou shalt feare the Lord thy God, and serue him, and shalt sweare by his Name. The Catechisme of the Councell of Trent teacheth the contrary, saying, We sweare by the crosse, by relickes, and by the names of Saints.In the exposition of the third commandement. To sweare by any one, is to acknowledge him to be a witnesse of the integrity of our consciences, and a reuenger of periury; which agreeth not with relickes. To say, that swearing by the relickes of Saints, we sweare by God that loueth the Saints, is to accuse the Prophets & the Apostles herein, that knowing well, that God loued Abraham, Isaac, and Iacob, they did not sweare by their relickes. By the same reason I might worship the Sunne, and sweare by heauen, and say, that I do it to honour God that made it.
6 Iesus Christ, Matthew 4.10. said to Sathan, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him onelyonly shalt thou serue: Thereby confuting Sathan, that offered him all the kingdomes of the world, if he would worship him. Who doubts not but that Sathan would hauehave bene content with an inferiour worship? Our Sauiour might hauehave confuted Sathan by telling him of the dignitie of his person, as being the Sonne of God; or by shewing Sathan of his own indignity, as being the principall slaue or diuell in hell. But he chose rather to send him to that rule whereby all adoration of creatures is forbidden.
7 But seeing that our aduersaries make two sorts of good workes, one commanded by God, the other onelyonly counselled, and perfecter then those that are commanded, I would gladly know in what place they put the inuocation of Saints. For seeing that our aduersaries do acknowledge that God hath not commanded it, to be a good worke it must be counselled, and by consequence, the inuocation of Saints is a perfecter worke then calling vponupon God. In the meane time there is no man so brutishly superstitious, that seeing two men kneeling on their knees, whereof the one prayeth vntounto God, the other to Saint Francis, but will confesse, that he which prayeth vntounto God, doth a better worke then the other.
8 Particularly for the inuocation and seruice of Angels, we hauehave an expresse passage of the Apostle, Colossians 2.18. Let no man at his pleasure beare rule ouer you by humblenesse of minde, and worshipping of Angels, aduancing himselfe in those things which he neuer saw. Let men as much as they will diuine the meaning of Saint Paul in this place, yet it is certaine that he generally prohibiteth the seruice of Angels, and by consequence that which is practised in the Church of Rome. And in the Church of the old Testament, when Angels appeared vntounto men, and visibly did those messages and commissions wherein God employed them, yet the faithfull neuer did ordaine any religious seruice to be done vntounto them. In all the publike Seruice prescribed in the bookes of Moses, there is nothing spoken of any seruice done to Angels in the Tabernacle. And I would gladly know why now, when their ayde is lesse sensible, they ought rather to be serued and called vponupon. Theodoret in his commentarie vponupon this place, saith, Those that forbad the Law, induced them so to serue Angels, saying, that the Law was giuen by their interposition. This vice continued a long time among them of Phrygia and Pisidia. Therefore the Synode assembled in Laodicea, the capitall citie of Phrygia, by expresse ordinance forbad them to pray vntounto Angels; and yet at this day we see among them and their neighbours Oratories or Chappels to pray in to S. Michael: which those that maintained them, said they did in humilitie, saying that the God of the whole world is inuisible, incomprehensible, and vnaccessible; and therefore that they had need to make God fauorable vntounto them by Angels. And that is it which Saint Paul said, in humblenesse and seruice of Angels. There are three things to be noted in this excellent place. The first, that Theodoret beleeued that the Councell of Laodicea forbad prayer to Angels. The second that he condemned the Chappels made to pray to S. Michael, which neuerthelesse are vsed in the Romish Church. The third, that those heretickes whereof he speaketh, vsed the same words that the Church of Rome doth, which is, that to make God fauourable vntounto them, they hauehave their recourse to Angels and Saints, with deuotion and humilitie of spirit. Baronius is angrie, and chideth Theodoret for writing in this manner, in the first Tome of his Annals in the sixetieth yeare.*§ 20. Ex his videas Theodoretum haud feliciter (eius pace dictum sit) assecutum esse Pauli verhorum sensum By this (saith he) we may see that Theodoret did not well vnderstand the sence of Saint Pauls words. In such manner our aduersaries respect the Fathers.
The Canon of the Councell of Laodicea whereof Theodoret makes mention, is the fiue and thirtieth Canon, the words duplicate page duplicate page whereof are these: Christians must not leaue the Church of God to go to worship Angels, and to meet together in congregations apart, which are things prohibited. If any one shall be found to vse this secret idolatrie, let him be accursed, because he hath forsaken our Lord Iesus Christ. Those Fathers esteemed and thought, that men could not call vponupon Angels without leauing the Church and renouncing Iesus Christ.*foreign, Ecclesia non inuocationibus Angelicis faciens aliquid, sed mundè, purè & manifestè orationes dirigens ad Dominū, &c. For that cause also Saint Augustine in his booke of Heresies, putteth the Angelicans among the heretiques, which were Angelorum cultui inclinati inclined or bent to the seruice of Angels.
Irenaeus in the second booke, 58. Chapter, ioyneth with the Apostle Saint Paul, saying. The Church doth nothing by Angelicall inuocations, but purely, simply, and manifestly addresseth her prayers to God which hath made all things, in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ.
The ordinarie excuse is, that men hauehave accesse to God by the Saints and Angels, as they hauehave accesse to kings by their officers and attendants. But the case is not all one. For kings are not in all places, neither vnderstand all things, and it is not fit that eueryevery man should speake vntounto them, and they hauehave need to be informed of the truth of things by others. In God it is cleane contrarie. And which is more, it is God which frameth prayers in our hearts, Rom. 8.25.26, Whereupon it followeth, that the prayer which God himselfe inspireth into our hearts, is pleasing or acceptable vntounto him without the recommendation of the Saints. Should not the voyce of the Spirit of God speaking in our hearts be pleasing vntounto God? Besides that we hauehave already shewed our aduersaries do cleane contrary ro that which they say, and hauehave recourse by God to the Saints. And albeit God were in all things like vntounto kings, yet when the king cals, we must go directly to him. But he saith, Come to me, Matth. 11.28, and call vponupon me, Psal. 50.15.
Places of the Scripture for the Inuocation of Saints.
ARNOVX.
Section. 82 Contrary places of Scripture. 2. Peter 1.15. I will endeuour to hauehave you often after my departing, to the end that you may hauehave remembrance of these things.
Here is Saint Peter which promiseth to pray for them after his death. And Geneua seeing the force of this place, set downe in these termes, according to the originall and the common translation, hath changed the order of these words by a manifest deprauation: putting this particle that before these words, before my departing, which is not found in the Greeke originall.
MOVLIN.
The onelyonly reading of this place of Saint Peter as M. Arnoux alledgeth it, prooueth the falshood:foreign, for there is neither sence nor reason in these words. I will indeuour to hauehave you often after my departing, to the end that you may hauehave remembrance of these things.
This is the place according to the Greeke: I will indeuour therefore alwayes, that ye also may be able to hauehave remembrance of these things after my departing. This word may in Greeke is foreign, which signifieth to hauehave meanes. Yong scholers that hauehave but a little vnderstanding in Greeke, may easily comprehend, that this is the sence of the Greeke in the Apostle. And if it were so that we had no vnderstanding of the Greek at all, the whole sence of the place it selfe forceth vsus to vnderstand it so. For Saint Peter in the verses before, and also in this, yeeldeth a reason vntounto the faithfull why he wrote vntounto them, which was, that perceiuing himselfe to be neare his death, he would leaue a remembrance of his instructions, that they might hauehave a meanes after his death often to remember that which he had said vntounto them in his life time. This is the whole place: For I thinke it meete as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stirre you vp, by putting you in remembrance, seeing I know that the time is at hand that I must lay downe this abernacle, euen as our Lord Iesus hath shewed me. I will endeauour therefore alwayes, that ye also may be able to hauehave remembrance of these things after my departing. And so the greatest part of our aduersaries which hauehave translated or written Commentaries vponupon this Epistle vnderstand it, as Arias Montanus, Cardinall Caietan, the ordinary Glosse. And aboue all, Thomas the Prince of Schooles,Quia cito transiturus, ideo dum viuo dabo operam vos cōmonendo, non solum semel, sed & frequenter, id est, instanter & diligenter, habere vos, id est, vt habeatis memoriam praedictorum post obitum meum. is very formall in his Commentary vponupon this Epistle: Because (saith he) that I must soone depart, therefore while I liue I will indeuour my selfe by aduertising you not onelyonly once, but often times also, that is to say, instantly and diligently, that you may hauehave a remembrance of the things aforesaid after my death. Oecumenius saith, that this exposition is the plainest, and that the other is hyperbaticall that is to say, ouerthrowing and troubling the construction.
Neuerthelesse, if it were as true, as it is false and absurd, that Saint Peter promised the faithfull to pray for them after his death, what is that to the purpose? If Saint Peter being in heauen prayeth for the Church, doth it follow that we ought to call vponupon him? doth it follow that he knowes our hearts?
ARNOVX.
Section. 83 And in Reuelation 5.8. The foure and twenty Elders fell downe before the Lambe,M. Arnoux hath put two harpes. hauing eueryevery one harpes and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the Saints. Reade, and it is sufficient.
MOVLIN.
The reading of this passage sufficeth to shew that the same toucheth not the question. The question is, whether we must pray vntounto and call vponupon the Saints. Whereupon M. Arnoux alledgeth a place which saith, that the Saints presented their prayers. This place saith, that the Saints prayed in heauen, but saith not, that we must pray vntounto them here on earth.