A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths, Part 1 (1 of 3)
¶An Aunswere to M. Hardings Epistle, wrytten vntounto Mayster Iuel.
Hardyng.
¶Although M. Iuell, when you proclaimed your chalenge at the beginning, you promised to yelde and subscribe, if any man alyue were able to bryng anye one sentence out of any old Doctour, Councell, Scripture, or exāple of primitiue Church, for proofe of any one of all your articles: yet verily I am perswaded, no wyse man beleued, what soeuer, or how much so euer were brought, that you would stand vntounto your promise. &c. So then the largenesse of your promise, to others maketh shewe of your confidence, and to your selfe the regarde of it encreaseth stubbernesse.
Dering.
WHen king Alaxander had proclaimed war against Darius, a certaine boasting Persiā in stéede of more manhood, vsed muche vnreuerent talke agaynst them of Macedonia: and especially against Alexander hymselfe: But Memnon hys Captayne, perceiuing thys soldiours valiantnesse to be all in his railing tongue, at the last, strake hym wyth hys speare and sayde, Ego te alo vt pugnes, non vt maledicas, I retayne thée to fight, and not to speake euyll. The very lyke of thys is happined among vsus, and thys pratyng Soldiour doth play hys part agayne. The Byshop of Sarisburie our Alexander in Christian warre and godly courage, hath made proclamacion against the Pope that proude Prince Darius, & Kyng of Babilon. Now least there should want a Soldiour to speake euyll of Alexander, Maister Harding hath taken vponupon hym that part: and spareth no péece of hys cunning by all meanes possible to debase thys good enterprise. God (if it be hys wyll) once make hym know hym selfe, or if he shall continue in hys euyll speakyng, sende ouer hym some Memnon that may chasten hys intemperate tongue.
In thys beginning of hys Epistle, there is lyttle woorthy aunswering. He pronounceth boldly of M. Iuels entent: yet no man knoweth the things of a man, saue the spirite of man which is within hym.i. Cor. 2.11. Hys writing is like a Crowe in Peacocks feathers, or an ylfauored Ape in a purple garment. The handlyng of hys matter is very beautifull, and the substance is nothing woorth. And yet in hys maner of resoning bicause M. Iuell wyll not subscribe, he concludeth that he is both confident and stubburne. Hys confidencie I graunt. He hath learned the good lesson of hys heauenly Father, Confidite, Iohn. 16.33. Psalm.ego vici mundum, be confident, for I hauehave ouercome the world. The Lorde is his helper, and he shall not be moued for euer. He is guiltie to him selfe of no crime herein: he waxeth not pale with the memorye of any fault, and therefore in the feare of God he hath sayd vntounto hys soule, hic murus aheneus esto, stand fast as a brazen wall. Would God M. Hardyng had had the lyke confidence, the scornfull reproches of the proud should not hauehave proued hym stubburne.
Hardyng.
¶Our Lord yet (if it be his pleasure) once open your eyes, and giuegive you grace to see the daunger of the poole you wade in. Beware by tyme M. Iuell, you fall not into the horrible gulfe, that Salomon speaketh off. Impius, cum in profundum malorum venerit, contemnit. When the wicked man commeth into the bottom of euils, he becommeth careles, settyng all at nought. If once you fall into thys bottom, what hope is there of your recouery? For whereas none returneth from euyll, but he that repenteth hym of euil: How can he repent that hath cast away all care? Yea, how can he steppe backe from euill and be made good, that saith (whose miserable state Esay lamenteth) euyll is good, and good is euyll? How can he see the right way, that maketh darknes light, and light darknes? How can he delight in sweete thyngs, that taketh sowre for sweete, and sweete for sowre.
Dering.
From these vncharitable beginnings M. Harding falleth (as it may séeme) to a charitable prayer: but were the same acceptable in the sight of God, he himselfe should returne from all hys abhominations: now it procéedeth from the Minister of iniquity. We are put in minde of the country prouerb, that it is ill wyth the Géese when the Fox preacheth. If the prayers were ryghteous he pretendeth here, not our bloud, but their owne teares should hauehave watred their eyes. Nowe, bicause their prosperitie hath bene the slaughter house of Satan, this submission in aduersity can be but the Crocodiles teares: If God of hys iustice shoulde carye vsus agayne captiues into Babilon, we know the purple whoore, and the whyps of hir fornication. But God be praysed, the lynes are fallen to vsus in pleasaunt places: yea we hauehave a fayre heritage,Psal. 16.16 for the waye that Maister Iuell wadeth in, it is not that horrible gulphe, which M. Harding can not sée, wherein the bottom of all euyll abydeth. The spirite of God is our warrant, that it is the narrow way which leadeth vntounto euerlastyng lyfe, there is no cause why M. Iuell should repent him of this iourneying, he walketh in the way of health. God of hys good wyll and merciemercy shall giuegive vntounto hym that hys course be finished in the same. He maketh not good euill, nor euyll good,Esay. 5.20. he putteth not darknesse for light, nor light for darknesse, he saith not swéete is sower, and sower is swéete. And for as much as the whole controuersie betwéene vsus, doth rest in this, whether of vsus is in darknesse, it shall not be tedious vntounto the Christian Reader, if in the woord of God we doe séeke for triall, for that giueth vntounto the simple sharpnesse of wyt, and to the children knowledge and discretion,Pro. 1.4. neyther is it hydden but from the eyes of the scorner, neither yet peruerted, but of the wycked.Pro. 4. 2. Pet. 3.16. Let vsus aske of the same woord what is good, what is the lyght, and what is swéete.2. Pet. 1.19. Psalm. 19. It is good for thée (saith Peter) to harken vntounto the woorde. And thy woorde saith Dauid is a lantern vntounto our féete, & a light vntounto our steppes, and the same woorde is more swéete then hony and the hony combe. Then as thys same word is true, so we are assured of all goodnesse, all light, and pleasure, if we follow it: and therefore blesse onesse is pronounced ouer hym that readeth,Apoca. 1.3. and them that heare that prophecie. Now doe we call the world to wytnesse, whether they or we do set out thys woorde. We hauehave it in our churches and priuate houses, we expounde it to the people: we exhort them to reade it: we call the ignorant from their errours wyth the same voyce that S. Augustine was called, tolle lege, tolle lege, Take vp and reade: and thys is as the holy Ghost doth witnesse, good, lyght, and swéete. But these men that crake so of their goodnesse, what hauehave they done? They hauehave pulled thys woorde out of their synagoges: they hauehave not suffred it in the poore mans dwellyngs: they hauehave not expounded it as the whole world can iudge: they hauehave not made it the squire of their religion: And if in any place that little booke was séene, though in the houses of Bishops and Prelats, yea, in the verie palaces of Popes & Cardinalls: yet did it sléepe in the dust: or if the candle was light, it was set vnderunder a bushell. The people did not knowe the meanes of their saluation, the merite of Christes passion was mingled with mans good workes, his continuall intercession darkned with the mediation of saints, his bloudie drops wiped away with the remembring his holye martirs: his crying out on the crosse at the yéelding vp of his spirit, was not hard thorow the abusing the name of his blessed mother, and in steade of other vnderstanding, wherwith our soules are comforted, we harkened after the straunge sounds of vnknowen trumpets: in gadding on pylgrimage, in paynting of Tabernacles, in sensing of Idols: in setting vp of Candels before stocks and stones, in blasphemous Masses: in idolatrous Altars, in halowing of Temples: in christining of Bells: in selling of Merites: in turning of Roodes, in a thousand mo iuglings, inuented by Satan and practised by his ministers: that from the top to the toe, from the hill altars vntounto the church doore, ther was nothing whole in that froward generation. Neither they themselues can denie this though they like to dissemble it, cry out how they will, yt we make euil good, and good euill. And for the charging vsus with darknes, the thing so disagréeth, that the ignorant require a further proofe, and the learned doe sée ther much wrangling eloquence: doe we make darknesse light? I say as before, what shadowes doe we walke in? what darkenesse doe we preach? wherein are we blinde leaders of the blinde? Accusations may not goe for arguments, nor slaunderings for sufficient proofe. O Maister Harding turne againe to your writings, examine your authorities, consider your counsails, applie your examples, looke if any line be blamable in our seruice, & take hold of your aduantage. I think Maister Iuel will accept it as an article. No, no, this offer doeth not like you, you see to great a hazarde of your little estimation. Our seruice is good and godly, euerie title grounded on holie scriptures: and with what face doe ye cal it darknesse? Sure with the same that the prophecies of the holy ghost were sometyme called dreames, the doctrine of the Apostels heresies, & our sauiour Christ a Samaritan. But as for your Portuise which is your light, whether it be darknesse or no, I craue no Arbitrer, I require but triall, and as Elias saide to the priests of Baal, let vsus take eyther our bullock and laie the péeces on our aultars, and on which God sendeth fire, let that be the light. You hauehave halted to long on both sides, it is now time to walke vp right. Offer vp your Portuise to Maister Iuell, if he proue it not a heape of lies, a sincke of iniquitie, a déepe dungion of blasphemouse herisies agaynst the eternall sonne of God & his euerlasting priesthood, we will all subscribe. And for the assuraunce of our meaning, we saie with the Apostle, behold before God we lie not:Galat. 1.20. if you dare not doe this, the Christian Reader must remember you are woorse then Baals prophets. Consider then Maister Harding in what waters you wade, and looke better what is light & darknesse. For the ignoraunce of gods worde the Gentiles were said to sit in darkenesse and in the shadow of death, the vnbeléeuing Iewes to be blinde leaders of the blinde, and he that knewe it not, to go he wist not whether. But the darckning of that worde hath bene your chiefest light, and ignoraunce the mother of your deuotion: and as in the sacrifices of Isis and Serapis you hauehave made Harpocrates image with his finger on his lyps in token that your misteries must be kept secrete, and as the Egiptians you hauehave your two diuers caracters, that Robin Hoode and Gui of Warwick and Beuis of Hampton & such like shoulde be had of the people in english letters, But the misteries of our redemption, & the glorious tidings of the death of Christ were in straunge figures, & for the hasarde of deuotion they might not be made common. So that of Launcelot Dulake, of Lamorake de Galis, of Sir Tristram de Lyones, or Marlin the Prophet we could tell many weary tales: but of Paule, of Peter, Iames or Iohn▪ besides the bare names, not one among a hundred could tell a lyne, not withstanding the continual crying of wysdome in the stréetes,Prou. 1.20. Math. 19.14 the callyng of our Sauiour for the sielie lyttleones. O M. Hardyng, this is no light. It was the tyme of Dioclesian, when the Scriptures were burned, the abhominations of Manasses when they were hyd in the Temple, the kingdome of Antiochus when they were cut in péeces: and to compare lyke with lyke, your Antichristian iurisdiction, where they are kept in couert. Wherin you shew that great plague to rest vpō you, which who so heareth,Iere. 19.3. Amos. 8.11. eyther eare shall tingle that you hauehave the famine of the woord of God. When the cogitacion of mās hart euen from hys youth was euyll, & the worlde ouerrun wt couetousnesse,Gene. 7. God purged that iniquitie with his drowning waters: when the crie of Sodome and Gomor did ascende to heauen, God quenched their filthie lustes wyth fire and brimstone: the frowardnesse of hys people, the breach of his lawes,Gene. 19. the bloud of hys prophetes, with pestilence, famine, banishments, & such other sundrie and diuers plagues: but the death of hys onelyonly heire,Math. 21.41 wyth the letting out of the Uineyard to others: and the bloud of hys beloued Sonne, with the scourge of ignoraunce: that vntounto this daie they beleue not his glorious Gospel. And how must the Popes kingdom néedes tremble & feare that acknowledgeth the punishments of Christes death to maintaine their religion? Now for our deliuerie from the maintenaunce of darkenes,Galat. 1.8. S. Paul biddeth vsus not beleue an Angel of heauen that bringeth an other Gospell, therefore we dare not be led with any blinde custome to shadowe the same light we hauehave receiued. If you shall otherwyse be alway minded, I se in an Etnick hart, the effect of that etnicks praier virtutem vt videant intabes…ant que relicta, that you might sée vertue and pine away with want of it. After this foloweth a sober excuse that Maister Harding maketh of him selfe, that although through infirmitie he oftentimes offend yet in matters of faith he hath no peruerse iudgement: The reason is bicause he doth submit him self to the church of Rome ▪ Much better this argument would hold the other way: bicause he is in the church of Rome, he is in all filthinesse & superstition of a sinfull lyfe and of a corrupt religion, hauing the heauie hand of God ouer him, that except he repent: the same woe shall light vppon him, which so vnwisely he hath deriued to other.
Hardyng.
¶This matter is well to be weighed, the case you stand in is deeplie to be considered. This much you cannot denie: you hauehave for your parte broken the vnitie, that is so much commended vntounto vsus in the scriptures, and all holy fathers. The Catholicke churche (sayth Saint Cyprian) can be one, it can not be cut and deuided a sunder. The catholicke Churche alone is the bodie of Christ, saith S. Augustine, whereof he is the head, the sauiour of his bodie. Without hys body the holye Ghost giueth life to none. Therefore in an other place he saith: whosoeuer is seperat from the catholick churche, how lawdable so euer he thinketh himselfe to liue, for this onelyonly wickednesse that he is deuided from the vnity of Christ, he shall not hauehave lyfe, but the wrath of God remaineth vponupon him.
Dering.
Here is a sad admonition, concerning the catholike Churche, which we acknowledge to be the bodie of Christ, and he the onelyonly heade of it, so that without it there is no saluation. But for the triall of this Church we go to the Scriptures and doe examine ech spirit whether he be of God or no:1. Ioh. 4.1.2. and such as saie they be Apostles and be none, we hauehave founde them lyars:Apoca. 1.2. therefore we run out from among them, as out of the middest of Babilon; out of their wicked assemblies and donne of théeues, from their abominations of Moab and spirituall fornications, and ar come againe to our merciful Father that hath prepared his fatlings for vsus, and put on vsus our wedding garment, and placed vsus at his great Supper in the felowship of his church, where we abide thorough his merciemercy, and looke for our resolucion, that our ioy maie be full. And for our assurance to be of that number we hauehave the warrāt of the Scriptures: first for that we harken onelyonly to Christ, and heare not the voice of any stranger:Iohn. 10.3. then for that we confesse that they alone can saue our soules.Ia…o. 1.21. …. Tim. 3.16. And as S. Paul saith, can make the man of God perfit to all good workes. And considering that Prophecie came not in the olde time by the wyll of man,2. Pet. 1.21. but holie men of God spake as they were mooued by ye holy ghost: we dare not admit any priuate interpretation, but take héede vntounto the worde, as vntounto a light that shineth in a darke place, for that is the daye starre which is risen in our harts. Therefore we presume not to vnderstand aboue that which is méere to vnderstand, but that we vnderstand according to sobrietie, as God hath delt to euerye one the measure of fayth, and we prophesie according to the proportion thereof, sith the Scripture may not be interpreted by other spirit,Rom. 12.3. then it hath bene deliuered. For as no man knoweth the things of a man, saue the spirit of man, which is within him,1. Cori. 2.11. euen so the things of God no man knoweth, saue onelyonly the spirit of God. As for the exposition of the holy Fathers, and Doctours, the same holy Fathers, and Doctours them selues hauehave taught vsus soberly, and with reuerence to leaue them, if in any wise they thinke other then the truth reporteth. Neither yet of counsails hauehave we any fore iudged sentēce, to be led by the counsel of Nice, or Areminum, but confer matter with matter, cause with cause, reason with reason, according to the scriptures. And vppon this ground we more esteme one laye man bringing scripture for his defence, than a whole assemblie without the like assuraunce. For were it not extreme madnesse vponupon the credit of men to goe carelesse in the mire, we knowe not whether, sith the thinges are written whereby we may liue? Euen as our sauiour Christ gaue aunswere to him, that sought life, referring him to the scriptures, and asking what he read:Luke. 10.36 so we vponupon those scriptures hauehave buylded vp our church wherin, we hauehave rather chosen to be dore kéepers, than to dwell in the prowd palaces of vngodlie buildings. But here M. Harding crieth out for the Apostles constitutions, and with rumours, and heresies, & deceitful traditions, bringeth battred weapons against our Church walles. But alas infelix puer at que impar congressus Achilli, O vnhappie child, and vnméete match for Achilles. This ordinaunce is but quilles, these pellets are but paper, this powder is but winde, and all these engines are but rotten wood. Thanks be to God that hath made vsus our dwelling places, and indewed vsus with hope, that shall not be confounded. We hauehave left to walke in their slipperie wayes, we hauehave left of to go after them in their vnfruitfull iourneis, we hauehave left of our gaping so long after flyes: would God Maister Harding you would so tourne from your follie, but you are drounken,Esay. 29.9. though not with wine, and you stagger, though not with strong drinke: for the Lord hath couered you with a spirit of slumber, and hath shut vp your eyes. Concerning traditions, I saye breifly, such turning of deuises shalbe estemed as the potters claie, yet meane I not this of all, but of popish traditions, of forbidding mariage, commaunding to abstaine from meates, which S. Paule sayth is the doctrine of Deuills:1. Tim. 4.1 of lying Legendes, which are the tokens of Antichrist, of massing garments, which for all new gloses muste néedes signifie the loking for of a new Messias. To be short of all such traditions rites worshippings as at this time set forth the superstition of this romish seruice, concluding this place with S. Paul Phil. 4. what so euer things are true, what so euer things are honest, what so euer things are iust, what so euer things are pure, what so euer things pertaine to louelove▪ what so euer things are of good report, if there be any vertue, or if there be any prayse, thinke on those things which you both learned, & receiued, and heard, & sene in me, those things doe, and the God of peace shalbe with you. Nowe he that can bring most aūtient profe what these traditions were, it is best reason he should be beleued. Speake now for your churche Maister Harding, and if you winne, for my part I will yeld. Speake out therefore alowd, and tel vsus your witnesse names. Ignatius, Martialis, Abdias, Hippolitus, Amphilochius, Leontius, Dyonitius. Olde witnesses sure euen moulded with their manie yeares: yet such is your fortune, euen these are to yong. Call for your Clemens the Appostles felow, yet he will not serue: Ther is one commeth aganist them longer of continuance, & more trauailed in the world, yet not worne with his yeares, nor w…ried with his labour: he is as good as Moyses, Deut. 34.7.his eyes are not dimmed, nor his naturall force abated: he is like vntounto Caleb as strong now as when his Moyses first sent him, as strong as he was then,Io…. 14.11. euen so strong is he now for warre or gouernment: a companion of S. Paules iourneis: whose prayse is in the Gospell thoroughout all Churches: who saluted the Collossians: who onelye was with Paule at Rome the .xiii. yeare of the raygne of Nero, 2. Cori. 8.18 Collo. 4.14. 2. Tim. 4.11.(though you say Peter was then Bishop) an excellent Phisition, and one that can cure the very hardnes of your hart: If you care not for hys commendacions, yet regarde his name: I doe meane S. Luke the holy Euangelist. Let vsus stande to his iudgement, what were these traditions? These traditions, sayth he, are the Gospell and the Actes which I wrote to Theophilus. For these are his very woordes. It séemed good also to me most noble Theophilus, Luke. 1.1.as soone as I had searched out perfitlye all things from the beginning, to wryte vntounto you thereof from point to point. All these things thus exactly written, he receiued onelyonly of his Maister Paule: And therfore, as it is thought, the same Apostle, speaking of S. Lukes writing, calleth it his owne Gospell. So that what so euer Luke reporteth not written by S. Paule, it is Paules preaching, and that is his tradition, yea euen from poynt to poynt.
O maister Harding, you thinke not reuerently of the spirite of God, if you can imagine that S. Luke, after such a promise vntounto Theophilus, pretermitted anye thing that séemed necessarie: there is nothing sufficient, if this be not sufficient. And yet there is an other witnesse, more auncient then Luke, and yet more fresh, then all your withered Doctours, and that is S. Paule him selfe, who in the .xv. to the Romaines, as maye well be gathered, saith,Rom. 15.17· that he wrote vntounto them that same that he preached. Now sith we hauehave so sufficient warrants, call vsus not into law, for reiecting your dreamings: but acknowledge, we say truly, in deniyng that Churche, whose faith you professe to be the catholike Churche.
For a briefe aunswere to your order of Bishops, I say it is a token, that maye faile in the Churche, or else was there no Church from the death of Christ, till S. Peter was a bishop, and so like in all vacations of Popes, be they long, or short. The church must be tried by the woord of God. Let Augustine be the Iudge,Aug. ep. 166 Chriso. in Math. hom 49. Epist. 166. and Chrisostome vponupon Mathew, hom. 49. Now for the better discharge of Luther and Zuinglius, which in Gods cause hauehave bene Symeon, and Leui, to reuēge the adulteries of Sichem: I wyll laye foorth your argument, and make it no woorse then it is. S. Augustine saith, if the order of Bishops may prooue the Church, there was neuer yet Bishop of Rome a Donatist, ergo saith maister Harding, ther must néedes be an open succession of Bishops. Let who wyll be cheyned in such bandes of yarne.
Hardyng.
¶But as it is certayne, you will faile in proofe of your church of the Caluinists, so I doubt not, but the world ere it be long shall see, how weake are the other partes of your doctrine. A man would thinke, who hath herd or read your Chalenge, that either you were well furnished with substantiall learning, to defende what you tooke vponupon you, or that you were a man of passing impudencie, or of extreme madnesse. Your Chalenge was aunswered, you hauehave replied. What you could doe in this Replie, you hauehave done. What helpe might be had among that whole side, you hauehave not wanted, Schoole maisters, Greke readers, Lawyers, Canonistes, Ciuilians, Summystes, Glose searchers, Diuines of all your sortes, and all others, that could do ought, hauehave put to their hands. The whole forces of your side into your booke, are brought together. God be thāked for it. All shall turne to the ioyfull victorie of truth, and to the glorie of God, and to your owne confusion at length.
Dering.
Now M. Harding, as though you had gotten the victorie, you do vntimely blow vp the triumphe, hasting, as it séemeth to Paris to syng Te Deum for the battell of Aging… court: wyth an odious rehersall in your manner of eloquence, of Schoolemaisters, Gréeke readers, Lawyers, Canonistes, Ciuilians, Summystes, Glose searchers. &c. with whom as with Maister Iuels helpers, like the lusty gréene Knight you wyll néedes encounter. But why doe you vse such vntrue demeanour, to iudge of any other by your owne doing? Touchyng this Reply, against which such a troupe hauehave sent out theyr papers, I speake as I hauehave sure knowledge, that if all these were helpers, yet doth it not shame the doing. If it be maister Iuels owne in good proofe, in elequence, in memorie, M. Harding is farre behind him. And for further declaration of this, they that hauehave séene the former aunswere, & this Reioynder, do know, that if M. Harding cōfesse it, he hath taken by force, if not, he hath stolne of his cunning.
But, saith M. Harding, this Chalenge was aunswered. I graunt he hath written, when the offer was once made vastis cum viribus offert, ora Dares, he for his part hath done what he could. But, saith he, you hauehave replied: O maister Harding why did you not before consider the fame of the Chalenger? Why saw you not those tokens of victorie hanged vp in hys houses? Though during the silence, your aunswere did séeme so plausible, yet now this replie hath shadowed all your prayses, your tentes are spoyled, your defences are weakned, your holdes are ouerturned, and your Captaines slaine. Iames and Chrisostome do say no moe Masses: Dionysius hath renounced the ordering of Angels: Clement hath no more acquayntaunce with the Apostles: Hippolytus beginneth with enim, Abdias is a Lyar, Amphilochius is a Dreamer, your Massing, or rather masking Priests, are sought for, and beholde women, boyes, children, laymen, fables, dreames, and visions, your Church, and Minister for your halfe Communion, and they are deathbeds, sickfolkes, infants, and madmen: Proofes for your Lattin seruice, and surmises, gesses, coniectures and likelyhoodes: In your supremacie he hath marked your wandrings, and seldome or neuer he hath founde you in the right way. In the other Articles he hath opened your forgeries, layd abroad your fallacies, vntied your cunning knots, losed euerye ioynt: and your aunswere is fallen. What resteth now, but that you bewéepe your faire Turnus, and cry wyth the pensiue Father, gnate vbi forma vitens niuea que in fronte Serenus ille decor, O aunswere, aunswere, where is nowe thine olde shining beautie?
Surely M. Harding, the paintings are rubbed awaye, the goodly feathers are gone, and the Crow appeareth: The Lions skyn is pulled of, and the séely Asse is bewrayed, therefore it is no maruail though you complaine of his helpers, as the Cowarde that hath béene once beaten in the darke, thincketh euerye bushe to be a Man, so your aunswere being shaken with eueryevery line of that Replie, made you thincke eueryevery leafe to be a new aduersary, notwithstanding yet you hauehave grauen a fresh in your buckler foreign with good lucke at aduenture, and in a desperate cause maintaine a litle hope with a new Reioynder. But alas, Fortune is deafe, and can not heare, or if she wil do any thing for you, & make this reioyning labour serue worthy aunswere, then alas little booke, cui te fortuna reseruat exitio, what misery shall come vponupon thée?
Hardyng.
¶Many thought ye were inuincible: By this it is well perceiued, ye are easy ynough to be conquered. Men supposed some great thing to be in you. Nowe all is seene what ye hauehave. And when it shall be made manifest that you hauehave nothing in substaunce, but onelye certaine shewes of things: your craking and boasting shal ende in your contempt and shame.
Dering.
The opinion of Maister Iuels learning hangeth not vponupon M. Hardings commendation. Men be not now led so far into errour, that if M. Harding say anye thing, they will strayght beleue him. As God hath lightned our harts with the knowledge of his heauenly word, so he hath ioyned vnderstanding vntounto our senses, least vaine talking should deceiue vsus. And therefore it skilleth the lesse how much M. Harding or his fellowes write. Concerning that Challenge, that hath so much enflamed them, I prayse not the Challenger, he hath nothing that he hath not receiued, the glorye doth belong vntounto God, the praise vntounto God, thankes geuing is due vntounto God: Mayster Iuell hath no more to boast of his tenne talents, then hée that hath but two: But this much I dare truly affirme, that as by Elias God destroyed the Prophets of Baal, by Micheas found the Prophets of Achab lyars, by Elizeus killed the railing Children: so by M. Iuell he hath well confirmed vsus against all idolatrous Priestes, all lying Prophets, and al railing Companions.
Hardyng.
¶The euent of your vanitie putteth me in remembrance of one Megabysus a great Captaine vnderunder the Kyng of Persie. This Megabysus came on a time vntounto the shop of Appelles, that most famous Painter at Athens. Beholding the Tables, & geuing his verdite of those excellent workes, he praised, & dispraised, liked, & found fault, as his fantasie blundered, not as skill directed. Apelles that while standing behinde a cloth, and hearing what he said, stept forth, and spake thus vntounto him. Hitherto Megabyse thy purple, gold, and precious stones, and the trayne that wayteth on thee, made vsus beleue, thou were a man of great worthinesse: now these boyes here that grinde my colours, hearing thee to speake so foolishly, set nought by thee, and laugh thee to scorne. Verily, though I be not like to Apelles, yet is your case M. Iuell, not muche vnlike to Megabyses. Heretofore your Rochet, and your square Cap (for I trow you be not yet come to be one of the Roūdcap Ministers) your Bishoprick of Sarisburie, your sightly state and condition, your Rhetoricall perswasions in the pulpit, with a holy holding vp of the handes, and casting vp of the eyes to heauen, and with your lamentable crying out of your Oos, which you vse very commonly, weening thereby to perswade the simple, your stoute asseuerations, your fauour of the common people, and others, that clap you on the shoulder, your vaine Pulpet buzzing, your Gloria patri at Pauls crosse: all this hath made many a one beleue, that M. Iuell was a great Clarcke, a piller of the Gospell, a peerelesse fellow. But now that you hauehave sayd all that you, and your whole side had to say, now that you hauehave discouered that lay hid before, now that your best stoare is laid abroade, now that you hauehave made the world witnesse of the proofes you hauehave for your doctrine: they that hauehave but meane skill behold a further weakenesse to be on your side, then before they had conceiued. Better it had beene for you, ye had mayntained your opinion and estimation among your own deceiued brotherhed with silence, and with your accustomed craking, without shewing forth any proofes.
Dering.
Now is M. Harding come to his pretye solace with one Megabises, a great man, & of little name, & in his own deuice lyking him selfe, well forceth much his eloquence, as if the Owle were the fairest bird in the wood. But we shoulde doe him much wrong to barre him of his pastime, that hath nothing else to comfort himselfe withall. His cause is nought, his bookes are contemned, his credite is lost, and that whych gréeueth him most of all, he hath made an vnequall matche. In these extremities, what if he vse his tongue at will? Megabises & he both can do but litle harme. The one doth but milke an hée Goate, while the other doth holde vnderunder a syue. It is now no time to spreade abroade anye cunning, to prooue my Lord of Sarisbury is not learned, as long as his Replye lyueth, and it shall lyue till his aduersaries be confounded. Neither his square Cap, nor his Rochet, nor his sightly state, nor his Bishopricke, shall at all commende him. We hauehave the testimonies of his minde, which God hath made so bewtifull, that all his other ornaments are knowen to be to fewe: yet concerning his good estate, I doe aunswere with Salomon, God ouerthroweth the wicked, and they are not, but the houses of the righteous shall stand. For thys description of hys maner of preaching, first it becommeth Diogoras better than a Diuine. Then what skilleth it, though Zoilus or Zerophanes doe scoffe at Homer. Pardon me, M. Harding if I say the truth foreign, it is easier for you to mocke at it, then to doe the like. But what meane you thus bitterly to raile at his preaching? Why iest you at his lamētacion for the peoples disobedience? HaueHave you lost both your cause and your learning togither? Uerily whē your Pope was Deane of S. Paules, there was then neither lifting vp of handes, nor bringing downe of hartes, neither crying out of Oos, nor inward grief of Iis, neither yet gloria patri, nor mors praedicata filij. You might heare the heauens harmonie, for anie pulpet noyse, yet loftye descant within amonge the Balamites, organe pipings at pleasure, and although no pulpet, yet goodly chauncell buzzing. I maruail you durst make mention of his preaching? But such is the blind mans hap, that séeth not his way, by making haste, goeth ouer his shooes, ere he be aware, in the mire.
Hardyng.
¶Howe little truth you hauehave for your side, and howe many vntruthes you hauehave vttered by your replie, partlye by this Reioynder, and more largely by the labours of other men, it shalbe declared.
Dering.
Nowe after this long a doe, what proofe bringeth Maister duplicate page duplicate page Harding against this Replie? for sooth he referreth vsus partly to this Reioinder, partly to the bird in ye bush, that is, to other proofes that shall come hereafter. I knowe not well in thys case what to write. If I shoulde vnrippe this Reioynder, and shew all the faultes it hath, then os & impudentia a bande of Louanistes, cry out in the ayre of lyings, corruptions, misconstruings, alterations, and a thousand such other. Some sende ouer their pamfletes, some returne their vntruthes, some whet leaden hatchets, some séeke reall presence, some make blinde discourses, some hunt out their Purgatorie, some fight for their images: some stumble on their rocke, and suche as can doe nothing else, cry, beware of M. Iuell. But truth must not be still for feare of the sclaunderer. God giuegive vsus grace to take héede of thys Reioynder, in vttering of an heresie, it is more talking, thā the Turtle, in speaking out the truth, more dumme, than a Fish: in auoiding authorities, more winding than the Serpent: in resisting Gods spirite, more hard than yron: in substance, an open market of all maner of euill. We that sée it, doe giuegive God the prayse, that maketh his truth to shine through so many cloudes: They that fauour their doings, may bewayle wyth Andromache, lifting vp Astionax handes, Spes nullas habet Troia si istas habet, Troy hath no hope at all, yf it hauehave no hope but this. Concerning those other proofes that shall come hereafter, I can say but this, pro boscide vnius abscissa monstratum est mori posse belluas, we know by this Reioynder, all your other bookes are soone aunswered.
Harding.
¶As concerning your aunswere to my preface, it is lyke the rest of your booke, all together voyde of truth, and plaine dealing. &c. that you hauehave discouered our wants therein, you speake vntruly.
Dering.
Now is M. Harding come to the defence of his Preface, and as his manner is, blaming M. Iuels whole writing, reioyneth, as hée séeth good, where it liketh him best, and first boldlye ynough denieth, that M. Iuell coulde discouer anye wants on their side. But alas, this is but a bragge. Is there no want on their side? Why then doth he handle his friends so vngentlie? Why turneth he them ouer to their owne defence? Why dissent they one from an other? If perhaps he say, their Church hath no wants, his owne fellowes are against him. Scotus sayth,Can. Apost. ca. 6. …t. 6. synodus. ca. 12. the Churche hath somewhere the harder part. Their Councels conclude some, one against an other, some against the Apostles them selues. Their Popes hauehave extremelye hated one an other, in suche sorte as neuer Turke or Infidell hath done the like. Yea, such is the impudencie of their Church, and so little account they make of disagrement, that they would make Christes Apostles teache one contrary to other. The .6. Canon, and the .40. Canon, and the .50. Canon of the Apostles, alow the mariage of priestes, the .25. Canon forbiddeth them to marrye. The .80. Canon of the Apostles doth straightlye charge and commaunde that no Bishop or Priest do debase him selfe to any worldlye labour, and alledge for their purpose this scripture: No man can serue two maisters.Const. Apost. lib. 3. cap. 67. And yet the cōstitutions of the same Apostles doe quite contrary, and commaund that the Priests do labour, vsing their own example, of which some were Fishermen, some Tentmakers, some Husbandmen, and suche like, this contrarietie of Apostles could neuer be in Christes Apostles. Then by like M. Hardings Church, that is faine to make them Apostles, hath some wants. And yet bicause M. Iuell sayd thus much, he falleth out in a rage, that his Challenge was foolish, his Replie without learning, his arrogancie much, his Gospell false, his weakenes discouered, his modestie stained, and I wot not what. A heape of shamelesse lies in halfe a side of a lease. The Challenge was foolish: yet Harding, Dorman, Rastell, Marshall, Stapleton, Heskins, Saunders, and Shacklocke, doe sweate these .iiii. or .v. yeares about it, and are neuer the neare. The Replie was vnlearned. Yet M. Harding in a yeare, could reioyne but with a few leaues, and that non absque theseo, Summysts or Glosesearchers, euerie one doth helpe a little. Concerning these other sclaunders, his pride can not be much, that alwayes commendeth his aduersaries cunning. His Gospell is not false, that embraceth nothing but the Gospell of Christ. His weakenesse is litle, that is vpholden with so manye authorities. His modestie is not stained, whose enimie euill reporteth him. Nor his bragges are manie, where the victorie abideth. Therfore this filthie fome of such vncomely railing, doth rather bewray the sicknes of the wryters mynde, then reproue the person against whom it is vttered.
Harding.
¶That you loked fiercely, and shoke your sword terribly, I sayd it not, as you reporte me. &c. from thence to digresse to the odious vpbraiding vsus with crueltie. &c. it was more spitefull, then pertinent to the matter.
Dering.
Maister Harding much blameth the racking of this example, but he may not nowe well discemble his meaning. His owne writinges, and Maister Shacklocks old withered trée, doe showe howe gladly they woulde bring vsus into hatred o… bloudinesse, and when they secretly insinuate it, is it not wisdome to bring open remedies? They may not well discharge them selues of such secrete doinges. Maister Harding was but little gone in this Epistle, when he would closely séeme to be Appelles. But his painting was not singular, and therfore I passed it ouer. After that he hath saide in this matter what he can, he commeth to his woonted rhetorike of Runnagates, Apostataes, Forsakers, and Rebels, as if he were talking of him selfe or Staphylus and such companions. But Maister Hardings mouth is no slaunder, our constancy is yet vnblamable. He blameth much our vncourtesy towarde our aduersaries, but he sheweth not wherin we do so euill entreat them. We neither tye them vp in cheines, nor shut them vp in cole houses. Perhaps he will saye they are in …uraunce. Yet that is but his own false surmise. Their great good lyking is a token of little hard handling. As touching these manye yffes of the beginning of Maister Iuels profession, they néede no aunswere. What he ment, a godlye man maye iudge, in seing gods blessing of his proceadinges. He findeth not hym selfe guilty with Core, Dathan, and Abiron, in gods mercies he feareth not the fall of Lucifer. And as you Maister Harding, hauehave regarde to the saluation of your soule, for Christes sake, he requireth you, to enter into your owne conscience. If promotion made you shrinke, remember Ieroboam, that made Israel to synne. If shame make you cōtinue, remember Pharao, that would not yéeld to Moyses: What euer kepeth you back from the true ioye of Gods gospell, remember Iulianus. You shall crye in time, vicisti Galilee, O Galilean thou hast the victory.
Harding.
¶That you were enforced therto by our importunity, as you say, who can beleue you. For who of vsus al troubled you? Who prouoked you? Who did so much as pull you by the sleue? Had you not before shut vsus vp. &c.
Dering.
Where he denieth that M. Iuell was prouoked by their importunitie, and thereto rayseth a heape of his idle questions: what priuate cause he had, I know not. Of their great importuniti, all the world is witnesse. What if M. Bonner were in prison, that had tied vp so many? What if testie M. Watson held his peace? Or what if M. Harding were quiet? Are there no moe enimies of Gods truth, but they? Was all at rest? Was al husht? Was not the world dayly seduced by their popery? Was not Christes merites darkned? Antichrist stil fighting for his seate in the temple? And will not this importunitye stirre vp a good Byshop? I pray you M. Harding (I speake it not to vpbraide you, but to admonish Gods people) what if your watchmen, were blinde and had no knowledge? what if they were domme Dogs, and they would not barke? what if they laye a sléepe and delited in sléeping, doo you thinke therefore that the vigilant pastor of Sarisburie coulde sée the woolfe come and runne awaye, sée the théefe, and kéepe silence? Your great murderer Hosius was buste, your Sorbonists wer occupied, your Louanists at their labour, this might moue the byshop, though a few of you foxes dyd not much trouble y• fold, dissemble not your knowledge for shame anie longer, confesse this was great cause both of griefe and vehemency.
Hardyng.
You finde fault with my want of modesty for shewyng forth your bosting, for my part I pray God I be neuer found more faulty for want of modestie.
Dering.
Maister Harding excuseth him selfe, that he hath not passed modestie, and prayeth God that therein hée be neuer founde more faultie: but whosoeuer readeth ouer his writing, and raketh vp togither the scourings of his modestie, shall finde such a heape of railings, that if he yet feare, going ouer them: it is very true that he that is once past shame, is like to proue notoriously impudent. But it skilleth not much, how immodest he be in writing, that defendeth such a shamelesse cause.
Hardyng.
¶If the truth you meane were manifest and knowen, why could not Luther see it, by whose spectacles you hauehave espied many pointes of your Gospel, by his minde, the truth of you that be Caluinistes, is not manifest.
Dering.
Now M. Harding falleth into his common place of Luther and Caluine, and those men, the more excellent their vertues were, the more opprobrious…ye he reporteth them. I could hauehave wished in the one lesse vehemencie. But it was a froward world when he first preached, the people coulde not be wonne with entreatie. The other may be a spectacle in al posteritie, to behold the great mercies of God, that endued his sinfull creatures with so rare vertues. He preached so often, and wrote so many bookes, that if the truth bare not witnesse, it might séeme incredible. He expounded the scriptures in such vertue of the spirite (giuegive me leaue to speake as I thinke, seing all is to the glorye of God) that neither S. Augustine nor S. Ierom the great lightes of Gods church hauehave euer done the like. But let such men rest in the peace of the Church, Maister Hardings reuilings can not blemish their good names.
After this he expoundeth his meaning in calling Maister Iuell Goliah, which he saith he did not for his strength, but for his craking. I maruail he hath so sone forgot his Philosophie, Aristotle sayth, that craking is to boast of that thing which a man hath not, but Goliah had more strength, then any one Israelite, had not God of his mercy toward Israel confounded it: so take away this comparison, and he must confesse his ouersight: let it stand in force, and he must acknowledge M. Iuels strength: which strength, seing that God doth not ouerthrow, but encreaseth it with his merciemercy, it is not Goliathes boasting, but it is Dauids faith, against which, bicause M. Harding hath so aduentured, both his strength is weakened, and his ignorance bewrayed. By Dauids slyng and hys scrip (he sayth) he knoweth not what is ment: yet me thyncketh, a man of his yeares, should not be ignorant, that by denying one mans things, to appertaine to an other: We saye the persons are not like. But M. Harding, bicause you know not what is ment by this sling and scrip, you must remember Dauid came against this Philistine, in the name of the Lord: but you come girt with Saules sword, and his Target, that is, with mens deuises to counteruaile Gods word. Dauid came to shew, that Israel had a God. But you come to declare that there is a Pope in Edom. Dauid confessed that the battaile was the Lords. But you woulde helpe win the field with your own merits. So sith you neither hauehave Dauids minde, nor his purpose, Maister Iuell saide you had nether his scrip nor his sling. And you shall neuer hauehave them, till you cast awaye your owne armour, and in matters of faith take vntounto you the furniture of the woord of God. Wrest not therfore against the sayntes of the Lord this saying of our sauiour, obmutesce, et exi de homine. We can abide your sayings with the comfort, that we hauehave receiued, blessed are you, when men reuile you, and saye all manner of euill against you.Math. 3.11.
Hardyng.
¶For that I, and certaine learned men by sundrie treatisies hauehave wrought to the cōfusion of your goliathship, we looke not for the praise of ladies. The loking after such rewarde we leaue to you, whome the hope therof entiseth to sustaine this wicked trauaile. &c. How you hauehave knockt Goliath in the forehed, as you crake, let it be iudged by that is of late returned vponupon you, by him, that wrote a returne of vntruthes vponupon your Replie.
Dering.
Maister Harding is very good in insinuations, euen nowe by Appelles, & now by learned men. He would hauehave vsus wéene him selfe is sombody, but what he is God knoweth. Héere he doeth grosely imagine of the ladies of Ierusalem. But wyth better aduisement he will forget this fancied pompe, and remember a spiritual triumphe. So he shal not be very hasty to sing before the victory. He saith he will dissemble Maister Iuels vaine, and ministerlike talke of the Pope. In déede it is his fashion in most partes of this Reioinder, when he can not aunswere the auctority, to passe it ouer with dissimulation. But why doeth he with such disdaine name this ministerlike talke? Doeth the name of a Minister so muche offende him? God graunt he once looke better to his féete, and sée where he wadeth. Let him remember the Prophets prayer, make the hart of this people fat, make their eares heauy,Esay. 6.10. and shut their eyes, least they vnderstand, and be healed. It is to be feared, God hath giuen him vp to a reprobate sense, he is pleased with the name of a priest, and the thing belongeth not vntounto him, he misliketh the name of a minister, yet all the Apostels of Christ so named them selues. But neither the Apostels names, nor yet their religion can please a popish prelate.
After this Maister Harding commeth to the issue of thys controuersie, and howe he hath handled his matter, he doeth appeale to the censure of the retourne of vntruthes. Why sir is Thomas Stapleton made Pope of late? You told vsus euen now Maister Iuell had challenged all the learned men in the world, and shall this yong man sit Arbiter in so great a controuersy? May he now iudge, and be iudged of no man? Take héede you make not two heades of your synagoge. Good Lord, to what issue is Maister Harding come? Diruta sunt aliis vni tibi pergama restant, though other might well scale the ghostly walles of Ierusalem, yet to you they stand stronglie fensed. When he hath giuen sentence, you may hauehave roume for your history of Megabises. Apelles hath set out his tables, and you bring the Shoomaker to be iudge, but if he passe the slipper, we may not then forbeare him, we will not set to his decrée, the note of the tribune, in token that we agrée as he decideth in his cheyre. But an euyll cause, feareth an indifferent Iudge.
Harding.
¶But to what purpose is it to stande long in ripping vp your aunswere to my preface? you start from place to place, and seriouslye prouing nothing, fill your paper with much matter impertinent. &c.
Dering.
Maister Iuell (saith M. Harding) doth start from place to place. I perceiue it is ill halting before a Créeple, who soeuer starteth aside, he soone espieth him: In holes, creauises, corners, & bywaies, he hath made many a scape in this Reioynder, he is seldome long togither in the right way. Whosoeuer séeth the great skyps in this article, would muse how he came headlong so soone ouer it: and yet seing his stayes in many places one would thinke surely he had no further to go, so Tigellius like he walketh in his Reioynder. As touching M. Iuels maner of confuting his preface, seing it is no part of their purpose, it skilleth not much whether he confute all in order or no. If M. Harding can saye no woorse by hym, let him hauehave his saying. For the matter, whether it be impertinent or no, the booke is his own Iudge, and let it rest vponupon triall.
Harding.
¶You make much a doe about your negatiue, and beare the world in hand, you may lawfullye, and reasonablye stand vponupon the negatiue in denying manye pointes of our faith, and religion, bicause S. Gregorie vsed a negatiue proposition agaynst Iohn B. of Constantinople. What though S. Gregorie sayd by way of Negatiue, no B. of Rome euer tooke vntounto him this name singularitie? Agayne what though S. Augustine by a negatiue said, In this order of succession, there is founde no B. that was a Donatist, what though I wold sai, as I might say truly, if the whole number of them, that hauehave bene B. of Sarisburie before this time, ther can be none foūd that was a Caluinist? Likewise, that of all the Bishops, that euer were in Englande, none was maried before Cranmer? Bicause these things are said by way of negatiue, in defence of the truth, shall it therefore be lawful for you to vtter your heresies, and sclaūderous doctrine by a negatiue, to impugne the truth?
Dering.
In this long tale of M. Harding, we hauehave to note many things, first how vnwares he speaketh, contrarie to him selfe. He confesseth flatly that this negatiue of S. Gregorie, wherin he denieth any ought to be vniuersall Bishop, is in defence of the truth. Yet Maister Harding in the fourth article goeth about to proue that the pope is vniuersal B. so by his own confession he goeth about to proue a lye. Secondarely, he confesseth at the last, that Maister Cranmar was a Byshop, and Maister Iuell with other his felowes are Bishops, yet at other times, he, and his fellowes wil in no case graunt it. Thirdly, he saith, no B. of Sarisburie was a Caluinist, before Maister Iuell, and that is a manifest lye. Fourthly, that no Byshop of Canterbury was maried, before Cranmar, and that is an otherlie. So in al this former péece, either he speaketh nothing but lyes, or if it be true, it is such truth, as by open writing he hath impugned. But Maister Harding bicause he can not deny this contrarietie, he will bid vsus proue the other, that any B. of Sarisbury hath bene of one religion with Caluin, or that any B. of Cant. hath bene maried. In déede this is the ground of their whole religion, bold asseuerations without any manner warrant, and then they bid vsus proue the contrary. But although this vnequall dealing be not good, and he that teacheth anye thing, shoulde proue the same to be true: yet I am content for truthes sake, to reproue in fewe woordes these negatiues of Maister Hardings.
First, this forbidding mariage, was vniuersally established by Pope Siluester the seconde, who was made Pope by the meanes, and woorking of the deuil, as their own writers confesse, in the yeare of our Lord 980. Yet I graunt,Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 11. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 11. Sozom. lib. 1. cap. 11. through the folly of vnlearned bishops, about .400. yeares after Christ, matrimonie in the cleargy began to be misliked, especially in the West church. For in the East church, they made no account of it, yea they thought it was no hinderaunce to the minister for perfourmance of his dutie in Gods church. But as I hauehave said, the West church in many places forbad it. And S. Ierom, although in many places he speake reuerently, and well of it, yet in some places, vponupon his owne priuate affection, he misliketh it. But as touching this purpose, more then thre hundred yeares after Christ, Priestes mariage was thought verie lawfull. But the English men receiued the faith of Christ in the latter time of Nero, as Gildas witnesseth, an olde writer and a Britan, who liued in the yeare of our Lord .580. and will Maister Harding say, that the thing being lawfull, yet in .300. yeare togither, there was neuer a Byshop maried?
And let Mayster Harding héere make no exception, either that in those dayes ther was no Byshops of Canterbury, or Sarisbury,De curand. gra. affect. li. 9▪ or that Gildas auctority is not good. Theodoretus saith, that S. Paule him selfe preached héere in his latter time. Nicephorus and other moe, say they receiued the fayth in the yere of our Lord 63. by Ioseph of Arimathia. Pol vir. angl. hist. lib. 2.After this supersticion began againe to bréede, then an .179. many preachers were sent, for to call them againe to their former profession. Whervpō Tertullian, speaking of this age, saith, Britānorum inaccessa Romanis loca, Christo fuerin… subdita. And Petrus Cluniacensis, Ad D. Bernhard.speaking of the Scots, calleth them christianos antiquiores, the most auncient christian men. And the story is knowen, how Lucius then King of England, was very diligent in setting out the Gospell. Thus it appeareth the true faith hath bene in Englande almost euer since our sauiour Christ died. Now yt in those daies ther wer bishops in Englād, it is likewise manifest.Naucl. vol. 2. gen. 7. When Eleutherius the Pope 177. sent preachers into England, they found here .3. called archiflamines, and .25. called flamines, which he turned in to thrée archbishops, & .25. byshops. Thus much then is clere, that in England were Christian bishops, and they might mary. Now to proue that they were maried,Gildas de excidio Britan. it is plaine by Gildas, in the latter ende of his booke, where he reproueth the Bishops, their wiues, and their children. So this lying negatiue of M. Harding is reproued, that sayth, no Bishop was euer maried in England, before Bishop Cranmer. For the other negatiue, that there was neuer B. of Sarisburie, of that religion which Caluine taught, it appeareth by M. Iuels Replie, which sheweth, that not onelyonly in England, but in all Christendome that religion was in the chiefest articles professed. And yet bicause it is here brought with the suretie of M. Hardings warrant, we wyll speake a little of this negatiue. It is boldlye auouched of manye popish Priestes, that Christianitie was placed here by Augustine, which is called the Englishe Bishop. He was sent from Rome, and landed in the Ile of Tenet in Kent an. 596. But it is alredy shewed, that we had the faith of Christ long before. Then what did Augustine here? I will tell thée Christian Reader, and I wyll tell thée that, which M. Harding shall nener be able to confute. He did first perswade the King and Quéene, not to enforce his new religion, but to leaue it fréely to men to follow, if they would. Afterward, being made Bishop of Canterburie, by consent of a Synode, he thrust into that Church altars, vestiments, images, Masses, challices, crosses, candlesticks▪ sensers, banners, processions, holy water, holy bread, funerals, tithes, and such other stuffe, whych before that time was neuer séene in England. Then he changed their kéeping of Easter day, taught them manye ceremonies in Baptisme, and when he coulde not bring all men to his diet,Beda. lib. 2. cap. 2. hist. Anglic. Bed. lib. 1. cap. 29. & .33. he moued great persecution against such as defended the libertie of the Church. Then he receiued from Rome relickes of diuers Saintes, buylt a Monasterie to Saint Peter, wrought many fained miracles, and so at the last he died about the yeare of our Lord .610. Now for further proofe of this, that Augustine marred, and not made our religion, it is verye probable, that we neuer receiued our faith from Rome, but from the East Church. First, bicause we (vntill Augustine came among vsus) kept our Easter after the manner of the Gréeke Church. Now it is well knowen,Pet. Clunia. ad D. Bernard. what mortall hatred there was for that matter, so that he which was enstructed of the one, would in no wyse vse the order of the other. Agayne when Augustine should be sent vntounto them, he came backe for feare, and the Britaines would not receaue him,Cal. card. de Brit. hist. lib. 8. cap. 4. nor acknowledge anye authoritie of Pope Gregorie ouer them. Which sure they would neuer hauehave done, if they had receaued theyr fayth from Rome.
Thus much then followeth, we had the faith of the Gréeke Church, without all superstitious ceremonies of the Church of Rome, and so it is manifest our bishops were then of Maister Caluines profession, in the whole substaunce of their religion. And so is this other negatiue of M. Harding prooued a lye. This I hauehave sayd the more at large, bicause M. Hardyng and his fellowes, woulde hauehave vsus beleue, that our faith came from the Pope, and Dan Augustine the Moonke, was the messenger. Now to quit these negatiues, with which M. Harding is so well pleased, with like negatiues we may well and truly ouerthrow all popish religion, taking example of our sauiour Christes doing. For he neuer alowed of their ceremonies. He neuer celebrated his last supper alone. He neuer ministred in one kinde. He neuer made any vniuersall bishop. He neuer named Transubstantiacion, Masse, Mattens, Euensong, Dirige, nor Trentals. He neuer went a procession, with cope, crosse, or candlesticke. He neuer …ensed Image, nor sang Latin seruice. He neuer went to shrift, nor sat in confession. He neuer preached of Purgatorie, nor pardons. He neuer honored Saintes, nor praied for the dead. He neuer fasted Friday, Uigil, Lent, nor Aduent. He neuer hallowed Churche, nor chalice, ashes, nor palmes, candels nor bels. He neuer made holy water, nor holy bread. He neuer wore Rochet, nor Tippet. He neuer had Crosse nor Myter, Corporas nor Portas, shepebooke, nor Massebooke, Frankincense nor Peterpence, wax, nor flax, nor any such trumperie. And therefore by these negatiues we may well conclude, that M. Hardings religion is not of Christes institution.
Harding.
¶VponUpon this negatiue it liketh you well to dally, and bicause (say you) it offendeth vsus, you wyll turne it on our side. &c. And when you hauehave made all your turnings, you doe as muche for vsus, as if you gaue a Snake for an Adder. &c. What proofes we hauehave, and how iustlye we confute your Obiections, and Replies, let our treatises be examined.
Dering.
Maister Iuels negatiue is this, that they can not prooue by Scripture, Doctour, Councell, or anye example, anye one of these articles, which are called into controuersie. This negatiue misliketh them. Therfore sayth M. Iuell, we will take the affirmatiue, and prooue their religion not to come from Christes Apostles. This I trow is not to dallie, but plainlye, and vnfainedly to séeke … the truth. Yet, saith Maister Harding, this is a Snake in stede of an Adder, & in deede it is true, the calling of these articles into question, hath stoonge that whorish religion euen vntounto death. And that Aesculapius Adder, that hath lurked so long in Rome, for all his quicke sight, is by this meanes discouered, God be praysed for it, for euer and euer. Wher Maister Harding saith further, let this matter be tried by treatisies, I feare not such iudges, for sure of all mens doinges their owne lyinges, dreamings, visions, oracles, coniurings, and such deuises, hauehave giuen their religion the greatest ouerthrowe.
Hardyng.
¶You report my wordes vntruly, as your common maner is, making men beleue although, I sayd all these articles were of light importaunce. &c. The lightest of them is of weight to drawe you downe to the rufull state of damned soules, if for maintenaunce of your priuate opinion, you feare not to breake the vnitie of the church. Yet, as though I had said, what you faslie report me to say, you procede, and scoffingly demaūd whether ye may thinke that our religion encreaseth, and vadeth, waxeth and waneth as doth the moone.
Dering.
These be Maister Hardings woordes, in his Preface to his aunswere. Why treate you not of matters of more importance, then these be of, which yet lye in question betwene the church of Rome, and the Protestantes? As the presence of Christes bodye and bloude in the Sacrament, of Iustification, of the value of good woorkes, of the Sacrifice of the Masse. &c. Thys obscure manner of speaking maye séeme to make light of these waightye mattters, and therefore who so euer should say so of them, deserued litle blame. But héere Maister Hardings choler is to much inflamed, bicause Maiste Iuell noting their inconstancie, asketh whether their Religion encreaseth, and vadeth, waxeth and waneth, as doeth the moone. And hath he not, thinke you, good occasion to aske this question? Doeth not Maister Harding saye in many of these articles, that they be no keyes of their Religion? Yet héere he saith, if a man denie them, when they be receiued, they are of value inoughe to dampne him. Where is his wit become? What is so contrary to it selfe, as this? What is waxing, and waning? What is increasing and vading, if this be none? And what Christian eares can abide this saying, that suche trifels as they be of them selues, and such filthy whooredomes as they be now made of, should condempne vsus, if we shoulde speake against them? He paide not the price of soules, that so easily sendeth them away from ther maister, vntounto Satan. The casting awaie such scourings of the Romish vncleannes, shall neuer doo it, nay it is a witnesse vntounto our consciences, that we be the children of the highest.
Hardyng.
¶Concerning the rest of your aunswere, wherin you treat certaine cōmon places, & vtter much spite against the Pope &c. against transubstanciatiō, against inuocation of saints, against aultars. &c. Prayer for the dead you condemne, and shew no cause why. &c. I thinke good to let passe, and contemne it.
Dering.
Now sure well done maister Harding, where you can not reade, skip ouer, but take good héede least in your l…aping you hurt your selfe, and do your cause no good. If men shal vnderstand, that you wil not alow the authority of Pope Nicolaus, Pope Leo, Pope Boniface, Pope Sergius, and the common Law, all which Maister Iuell alledgeth, you shall make the Pope that now is, beshrew you, and so peraduenture you shal get a curse, and you shall make all good Christian people mistrust you. Of transubstantiation, & aultars, we will say more héereafter. Prayer to saintes is now nighe forgotten. You aske in the margine, why we doe not aunswere the booke of Purgatory. In déede now you come to the point. This article is very auncient about .1900. yeares a gone. Plato spake of it in his booke de animo, where this your cleansing place hath his first ground, & foundation. And therfore for our good, and sufficient discharge in this matter, I aunswere out of the same booke of Plato. We meddle not with your booke of purgatory, bicause we feare not our shadowes. You know, that ye yōg nouice in Philosophy feared not ye three hedded Cerberus, the roring of Cocytus, the rolling stone of Sisyphus, and how shoulde we feare your painted paper walles of Purgatory? Christ is our Sauiour. God engraffe in vsus a desire to be with him, and for my part, sith purgatory hath no graunt in Gods woord, I recken it scarce woorthy aunswer. Yet bicause you ar importune, somwhat shall be sayd hereafter.
Hardyng.
¶You hauehave piked out, or set some a worke, to pike out for you, all the tearmes and woordes vsed in my booke, which a good man may iustly bestow in rebuke of vice vponupon euill men. &c.
Dering.
Héere Maister Harding is fallen into a very shamelesse veine of writing, and thinketh good at large to excuse his own modesty. The woordes, in which he séeketh after it, are these, Thersites, Goliath, Heathens, Publicanes, sacramentaries, Lucians, scoffers, rashe, presumtuous, ignorant, péeuishe, and such lyke these, he goeth about orderlye to applie vntounto Maister Iuell. To aunswere them all in order, were to enter into néedelesse labour, and to contend in woordes, with those, which delight in rayling. But bicause Maister Harding for some proofe of thys matter, bringeth this authority of Doctor Luther against vsus, & so vseth our cōtention against our selfes, let vsus all praye vntounto the God of peace, and consolation, that he would giuegive vntounto vsus to be all like minded, that with one hart, and one voyce, we may prayse God, euen the Father of Iesus Christ.Rom. 15.5. Our agréement shall soone spread abroad Gods glorious Gospell, and stop the euill mouth of the sclaunderer. It shall defend the common hold of all good men, and turne ouer the refuges of the Papists. There is no way so straight to set out Gods glory, as where the Preachers go al togither. There is no perswasion so effectuall, to pull the people from ydolatrie, as the Ministers to louelove, one an other. Happy were those times of the Israelites, when the people were in Ierusalem ▪ as if they had bene one man. Happye was the condition of the Apostles, when they were al with one acc…rd in the same place.1. Nehe. 3. Then did Israel buylde an altar vntounto the Lord. Then did the Apostles receiue the holy Ghost, when they were all of one minde in Salomons porch,Actes. 2.4. manye signes and woonders were shewed by them. When the Philippians did continue in one spirite,Actes. 5.12. and in one minde, helping forward the labouring faith of the Gospell, they did well become the Gospell of Christ.Phil. 1.27. If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of louelove, if any fellowship of the spirite, if any compassion,Phil. ….1. and mercy: let vsus fulfil our ioy, that we be like minded. Christ pleased not him selfe, but euen, as it is wrytten, the rebukes of them, that rebuked, they fell on me,Rom. 15.2. and shall we abide strife, and contention? He was wounded for our transgressions, and broken for our iniquitie,Esay. 63.5. and shall not we beare the infirmities of our brethren? A brused réede he dyd not breake, and the smoking flaxe he did not quench,Esay. 42.3. and shal we treade them downe, that we thinke are a little deceiued? Where is that voyce of Saint Chrisostome, Chrisostome.Charitie is more strong, than a wall of Adamant stone? Where is the voyce of S. Paule the Apostle, beare one an others burthen?Paule. Where is the voyce of our sauiour Christ, by this all men shal know, you are my Disciples? HaueHave we forgotten the cōmaudement, that was so lately giuen vsus, be you one, as my Father, and I am one? Consider, I beseche you, O my fellowe seruaunts, howe daungerous times are come vponupon vsus of the Christian common wealth. Consider the great perils,Iohn. 15. whereinto wée are fallen. In the heades of a verye fewe, very manye of our weake brethren hauehave great daunger. The wicked doe triumphe, and reioyce, when the bold, and vngodlye Louanis…s hauehave nothing to obiect vntounto vsus, they set our owne contention in the eyes of all men, w…en they hauehave no testimony of scripture to bryng against vsus, & (such is the mercy of our God) are not vpholden with the fauor, & aucthoritie of our Prince, yet they hauehave a certaine confidence in our disagréement. Take from them this hope, which yet they leane on, and it shal come to passe, that either they shall leaue their popish thraldome, & with the lost Childe returne vntounto the mercyfull Father: or if they will still abide in those papall tempests, they shall be broken with the rockes of errours, and perish in the shipwrackes of their own deuises. God the Father of all mercy, giuegive vntounto vsus for his Sonnes sake, that with one will, and agréeable mindes, we may all prayse hys name. And thus farre of thys argument.
Hardyng.
¶There was neuer any Hickescorner, that ieasted more pleasant at any toy in an enterlude, then Maister Iuell scoffeth blasphemously, at the most holy and dredful Mysteries. And may no man be so hardy, as to name him a Lucian, or a Scoffer?
Dering.
Surely, a man woulde thinke by these procéedings, that Maister Hardings newe Dioclesian, hath enstructed hym in olde Genesius learning. He would defend his modestie, and yet neuer was ther a more sawcie gester, against a Christian bishop. But let him come forth on the stage, and beholde his vnnourtered gestures. Maister Iuell scoffeth, saith he, at the dreadfull misteries. And how proueth he it? Is his woorde an oracle? No, no Maister Harding, he is no Lucian, that abhorreth your vngodly sacrifice. Hée is no Scoffer, that speaketh by the spirit of God, against your wicked misteries. Ezechias called the brasen serpent nehushton, 2. Reg. 18.yet he iested not at Gods institution.2. Reg. 23. The scripture calleth moūt Oliuet, the mount of corruption, yet blameth it not Gods creature. S. Paul calleth circumcision ouerthwart cutting,Phillip. yet doeth he not scoffe at Gods sacrament. Christ saide, the Temple was a denne of théeues,Math. yet he confessed it ought to be a house of prayer. And may not a man call your misteries by their name, in which is as great abuse, as euer was in the brasen Serpent, in moūt Oliuet, in Circumcision, in the Temple of God? Yea M. Harding your Misteries are Idolatrous, though you crye out, that Ezechias hath taken away the high places of God, and his altars.Para. 2.32 But who can let Achabs Prophets to speake ill of Micheah?
Hardyng.
¶What mad man euer ouershot him selfe so farre, as to make such a hasty Chalenge, specially in matters of religion, by so long practise of the Churche determined? Who euer presumed so to make defiance, as it were to al learned men, yea to al men aliue? who euer defended a matter so stoutly auouched, with lesse learning? Who in so weighty pointes made Argumentes of lesse pith, so light, and so childish? And yet this ioly felow standeth so high in his owne conceit, that whiles he laieth about him, flingeth, and stryketh at all men, spareth not the reuerence of his Mother, no not the Maiestye of the holy Ghoste, and Christ our Lord, he may not be touched, so much as it were with a venue of these most deserued termes.
Dering.
Now is Maister Harding come to his last, and least reason, and wyth a company of braue Interrogations, of what mad man? and who euer? wythout anye aunswere made, concludeth at aduenture, that these, & many moe modest termes were well applied. But softe syr, a hasty Bitch bringeth forth blinde whealpes. If you come to this issue, by my former graunting of eueryevery question, let the fault be mine, if by your owne presuming, you are neuer the neare. You hauehave roled vp Sisyphus stone, and it is fallen downe againe, and therfore you must begin a freshe. What mad man say you euer ouershot him selfe so farre? &c. Maister Harding, when he tooke vponupon him to aunswere the Chalenge. Who euer presumed so to make defiance? &c. God, when he sayde, come nowe, and blame me, if you can, Esay. 1.18. And his sonne Christ,Esay. 1.18. quis vestrum arguet me de peccato, which of you can conuince me of sinne? Who euer defended a matter? &c. Your doctours at Oxford against these reuerend Fathers D. Cranmer, D. Ridley, and M. Latimer. Who euer in so weighty pointes? &c. You, in your aunswer, and héere in defence of your modesty. And yet this ioly fellowe, &c. I will speake nothing of this modesty. For vndoubtedly it is far spent. But this is a Popes disputation, to aske vsus first our mindes, and then to conclude whether we wil or no. But fare you well Maister Harding, nowe you are off the stage, giuegive vsus leaue a little to speake to the audience. Marke christiā reader this mans intemperancy. He hath purposed to defend his vaine, and beastly Religion, and thou shalt sooner ouerturne the whole estate of his lyfe, then bring him from it. Hée hath woorshipped so long in the church of Rome, that Elizeus, the Prophet cannot call him out of it. He careth not, what he saith, nor how boldly he affirmeth, and he is not ignorant of this him selfe, but he is so far of from hauing any thing for him selfe, that he thinketh he must not onelyonly speake against vsus, but euen against nature, against the warnings of reason, against the opinion of al men, against the scriptures of God. He defēdeth his modestie, with mostim̄odest woordes. He shameth not to saye Maister Iuels Booke is foolish, which is a looking glasse of learning to al that vnderstand it. He saith his arguments be péeuish, which yf they be not grounded in Gods woorde, I require thée beleue them not. He saith, he spareth not the maiesty of the holy ghost, and Christ our Lord, and yet in so great blasphemy, bringeth no one coniecture. And how doeth he handle all this? With so good, and chosen woordes, so handsome colours, so whole sentences, that although he hath made warre against God, and his Church, yet he séemeth to speake déepe diuinity. God giuegive vsus grace to beware of him. He is a blinde leader of the blinde. But he is come againe, & let vsus sée what he hath more to say.
Harding.
¶You would hauehave men thinke, this were Vetus Comoedia. No M. Iuell, it is Zelus Dei, it not Vetus Comoedia. The imitation of Vetus Comoedia, hath euer bene takē for a badge of men of your profession. &c. You mocke, and scoffe at our persons, as the naughty boyes of Bethel dyd at Elizeus, but at our auncient Religion, & at the church of Christ. Yet wee curse you not in the name of our Lord, as he did those euill nourtered children, that ye might be toren of Beares. &c. With your wicked doctrine you hauehave so brought the people from God, as now for a great number, they may seeme not to halt on both sides, but to be fallen downe right. Yet doe we not call for fire to discend from heauen, and burne you vp. Neither doe we stirre the people to take you, and destroye you, as Elias bad the people to destroye the false Prophetes.
Dering.
HaueHave you not left iarring of this vnmodest string? Belike it is very pleasant musicke in your eares. This manner of behauiour, say you, is not Vetus comoedia, no open naming of men vponupon stages. What is it then? It is Zelus Dei. I may not iudge directly what you are within. Paule was a persecutour in defending their traditions, but sure your zeale is not according to knowledge, you louelove darknesse, more thē light, and therfore you dwell in ignorance, you seeke not after wisdome, as after siluer, and gold, and therfore you finde hir not. You saye we scoffe at you and your Religion, as the. &c. At your persons we scoffe not, God is our witnesse, we wéepe to see the temple of the holye Ghost to be the temple of an Harlot, it gréeueth vsus, that in the Image of God shoulde appeare Sathans vglye visage. And you want not our prayers for your returne. But your auncient Religion we hate, and abhorre it. It is so olde, that it is rotton, and one péece wil not hange with an other, it is a smoke, that at the flaming out of gods woord is vanished, it is a stinking mist, it is ouerblowen with the swéete windes of the holy spirit. And therfore doo not blame vsus, if we cannot abide it. Your Religion is as good, as your vaunt is true, when you commende your selues for clemencie aboue Elizeus, or Elias. You saye you praye not, that we maye be torne of Beares, nor that fyre from heauen maye come downe to destroye vsus. What your prayer is inwardely, I say it oft, I know not. But for your good will towarde vsus, if you coulde commaund either beastes, or Elements, we should not escape neither Beare, nor fyre. The aboundance of our bloode crieth out to heauen, that you are as mercifull as the woolfe, or the Tyger. But O passi grauiora, dedit deus his quoque finem, his name be praysed for euermore.