A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths, Part 2 (5 of 5)

A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths · Part 2 (5 of 5)

p. 171The B. of Saris.

To breake the holie Canons, Damasus sayth, i… blasphemie against the holie goste.

Harding.

The .72. vntruth. Damasus saith not so.

Dering.

This is one of Maister Hardings poore vntruthes, which, beside the assertion, hath neither colour, nor show. Damasus wordes are these. Tali… praesumptio manifeste vnum genus est blasphem…tis in spiritual factum. 25. q. 1. viola tores.Such presumpsion is manifestly one kinde of blasphemie, againste the holie goste. Yf these be not the wordes, then I lie. If these be the wordes, then Maister Harding maketh shamelesse vntruthes. And if those wordes of the decree are p. 172not plaine enough, then Gracian speaketh more plainely in the title, he speaketh, euen as Maister Iuell doeth, In spiritum sanctum blasphemant, qui sacros canones violant, it is blasphemie against the holy gost, to breake the sacred canons. Yea and the glose saith further, Eo ipso videtur excommunicatus, et hereticus, euen by the verie face, he is excommunicate,Ibid. in glosa and he is an heretike. And Gregorie saith, exors esto a nostro ministerio. Let him hauehave no part of our ministratiō.Dist. 19. nulli. Reade these places, & examine M. I. saying, thou canst not but maruell, at Maister Hardings impudencie.

The B. of Saris.

Soters decree commaundeth, that no Priest dare minister without the companie of some other Priest.

Harding.

The .173. vntruth. Soters decree is not so generall, it is limitted.

Dering.

How so euer Soters decrée be limitted, he were a wise man could limit al M. Hardinges wrangling. The canon is plaine, Summopere cauendum est▪ And necessarium duximus, we must especially prouide, and we hauehave thought it necessarie, to hauehave an other Priest in companie, and for the better credit of this decrée, Soter bringeth forth this scripture, Ve soli, wo be to him that is alone. But saith Maister Harding, this decrée was not generall, and it was growne out of vse: and how proueth he, that it was not generall. Forsoth Gregorie saith so, he might as well hauehave sayde, I say so, for if Gregorie might gesse at Soters meaning .400. yeares after Soter was dead, why may not M. Hard. gesse too. I am sure he is as good at a gesse as euer Gregorie was, and hath as good practise in them. But this is straunge dealing which Maister Harding vseth to gesse so at vntruths, p. 173then to aduouch them so boldly. But bicause the matter shall not go all by aime, here is another shift for Iohn Almonars Masse. This canon, saith Maister Harding, was growne out of vse. But this aunswere was scarce worth bringing. For if the breach of those canons were blasphemie against the holy gost, as Pope Damasus saith, what mēt Maister Hardings church to let them grow out of vse. But I thinke, the church was not so ouerseene, peraduenture Maister Hardings saying is false, peraduenture the decrée, neither had any limitation, nor yet was out of vse. Uerely the Pope him self, straightly commaundeth them,De cōs. dist. 1. apostolica. 25. q. 1. viola toris in glosa. with apostolicall authoritie, and in no case will hauehave them broken vnderunder paine of excōmunication. Then sith it is so, this vntruth was neither wisely numbred, nor yet well prouid.

The B. of Saris.

The councell of Laudicea saith, it is not lawfull for bishops, or priestes, to minister the communion at home.

Harding.

The .174. vntruth. The Councell saith not at home, but in their houses.

Dering.

We hauehave heard before many new distinctions, héere is yet an other, as new as the best. There is, saith M. Harding, a differēce betwene at home, and in their houses, and vponupon this distinction, it liketh him so well, he aduentureth this vntruth, and the two next, ensuing also. But I thinke, it will be long eare this distinction get any credit. Sure I am, in my countrey, to say he is at home, or he is at his house, is all a matter, and I dare say, M. Iuel thought of no difference betwene them. Seing then Maister Harding doeth see so cleare, too espie ambiguities, where none p. 174are. Let vsus sée how that decrée, and this distinction may stande.Conc. laodic. can. 58. Let no Bishop, or Priest, sayth the councell, minister the Communion in their houses. Yet saith Maister Harding, they may minister it at home. So this decrée standeth thus. Let no Bishop, or Priest minister the Communion to any man in his house, except he be at home. Yf so many Bishops made so senselesse a decrée, they had smal matters to think on.

The B. of Saris.

The same order was taken at the Councell of Acon.

Harding.

The .176. vntruth. It vvas not taken.

Dering.

The same order, saith Maister Harding, was not taken by them. Yet the .58. canon of the councell of Laodicea, and 80. canon of the councell of Acon, are the same words, and how should the same wordes not hauehave the same meaning? No distinctiō can make this matter whole, but M. Harding must néedes here say, he can not tell what he sayd.

The B. of Saris.

Likewise, Pope Foelix: It is not lawfull to minister the communion at home, but vponupon exceding great necessitie.

Harding.

The .175. vntruth. Foelix, speaketh neither of the Communion, nor of home.

Dering.

If M. Harding did either feare God, or reuerence the truth, he wold not deale thus vnfaithfully. Thou séest, good Reader, how boldly he saith, Foelix nameth neither y^e Communion, p. 175nor home, and who would not thinke, that such assertions should hauehave some coloure, or shew of truth? yet sure in this there is none. But marke his vntrue behauiour, he alleageth for his proofe, certaine wordes of Foelix, in which in deede these termes are not expressed, but how wickedly he doeth it, let the booke be iudge. It foloweth in the same decrée, within lesse than fiue lines.De consec. dist. 1. sicut non alij. In domibus ab episcopis, siue presbyteris oblationes celebrari nullatenus licet, yet in houses, either by Bishoppes, or Priestes, it is by no meanes lawefull, that the Communion be celebrate. Lo here is mention bothe of house, and Communion, yet saith Maister Harding, there is mention of neither. The best excuse that in this place may be hadde, is to saye, he was deceiued: there is no exception against the words, for they are plaine. No distinction of oblation. For the glose hath interpreted it. Oblationes. s. eucharistiae. The sacrifice,Ibid. in glosa to wit, of the Lordes supper. Now a little further, to view these vntruthes, M. Harding to proue his priuate Masse, hath sought for Iohn Almonar in a priuate Chapple, but the question is moued of the open church. This Iohn Almonar, liued at the least .610. yeares after Christ. The question is of .600. yeares onelyonly. So this fable may be well reiected, both for that it is nothing to the purpose, and if it were, yet it is without the compasse of .600. yeares. Yet Maister Iuel admitting the proofe, doeth proue that it is a verie fable. His reason is, bicause no man might saye Masse at home. Here let vsus make the best of Maister Hardings aunswere, and it is thus. They might not say Masse in theyr houses, but they might say them in their Chappels. This aunswere is very absurde. For who would say masse in his parlour, or hall, or kitchin, hauing a Chapple? And it is knowne to be false, and taken away by Gracian, saying. Vnicui que fidelium in domo sua oratorium habere licet, et ibi orare, missas autem ibi concelebrare non licet, De cōs. dist. 1. vnicui que .eueryevery man may p. 176hauehave a Chapple in his house, & pray there, but he may not hauehave Masse in it. Thus appeareth, how vaine Maister Hardings exception is, against these former authorities, for that they hauehave in Domibus in their houses, when Gracian alleaging the councell of Auleria vseth this word, oratorium, a Chaple, notwithstanding, Maister Harding concludeth thus, we must seeke for better stuffe, this is nothing worth, so much securitie hauehave these men promised them selues, that whatsoeuer they speake, they think it shalbe beleued.

The B. of▪ Saris.

Maister Harding translateth fals…ly, cum benedixisset sancta▪ when he had consecrate the Sacrament. Likewise, post finem orationum, after the prayer of consecration.

Harding.

The .177. vntruthe. That translation is true.

The .178. vntruthe. That translation is true.

Dering.

Now that this Apostata, hath vomited vp a litle poisoned affection, against the blessed bishop of Sarisburie, he is laide downe againe, like a swine, to wallow in his former mire, and as blinde bayard, running forth he knoweth not whether, quoteth mo vntruthes of his owne making. My translation,Ambros. de ijs qui &c. cap. 9. Thom. in. 1. cor. cap. 10. lec. 4. saith he, is true. His reasō is this, some doctors doe expounde benedicere, for consecrare, therefore that is so. And the Grecians said, foreign, sancta sanctis, therfore sancta is the Sacrament. If Maister Harding, that in his long epistle would so faine hauehave ben Appelles, could with all his cunning picture out these argumentes, we should hauehave the right shape of a fooles bable. Benedicere, saith he, is construed of S. Ambrose by consecrare, ergo, it is so. But it is construed otherwise, by the Euangelists, p. 177therefore it is not so. Where S. Mathew, and S. Marke say,Math. 26. Mar. 14. Luc. 22. 1. Co. 11.Matt 26Mark 14Luke 221 Cor 11 foreign, when he had blessed, he brake, S. Luke and S. Paule say, foreign, when he had giuen thankes, he brake. Yea bothe Mathewe, and Marke them selues say of the cuppe foreign, when he had giuen thanks, he gaue it. Then if Benedixit be, he did consecrate, then Gratias egit is also, he did consecrate, and so the .180. vntruthe is verified, that master Harding calleth some things, that are not as if they were. And I would faine know why maister Harding cleaueth so to this worde foreign, it maketh nothing for his transubstantiation. It is written in the Scripture, foreign, God blessed the seuenth day, yet he turned not the nature of it. So God speaketh vntounto Abraham, foreign. Surely, in blessing I will blesse thée, yet God vsed no manner of consecration: so saith S. Paule, foreign.Ephe. 1.Eph 1 Who hath blessed vsus in all manner of spirituall blessing. In diuers other places of holy scripture, thisword is vsed, yet no where for this straunge manner of transubstantiation, or other consecration, than which we say in Latine consecrare, which is, to giuegive vp, to ordaine, to appoynt to an holy vse, though it may be well said of the sacrament, yet it is not in Gréeke foreign, but rather foreign or foreign or foreign, so that why he should translate foreign, to consecrate, there is no cause, except suche cause as will hauehave foreign after foreign, signifie nothing. But saithe maister Harding, some Doctors hauehave translated Benedicere by Consecrare. Let vsus graunt it, suche is the libertie of speache, that some worde is vsed in an impropre signification. Dothe it folow, bicause Benedicere may be to consecrate, therfore Benedicere sancta, is to consecrate the sacrament? This gathering is very childishe. Extruo is to builde vp. Therfore is extruere mensam, to build or make a table? Interpello, is to disturbe, or interrupt, therefore is interpellare debitorē to interrupt or disturbe your p. 178debtour? Expendere, is to consider, therfore is expendere poenas, to consider punishment? Sure this is a very idle proofe, though Benedicere were to consecrate, and sancta were the sacrament. But now it is shewed, that Benedicere is not to consecrate, and foreign is not the sacrament, as Maister Iuel sheweth out of Chrysostome. And in da de what reason is it, that foreign, sancta sanctis, should be the sacrament, & not foreign, sancta sanctorum, should be likewise the sacrament? Now for as muche as maister Harding cleaueth so vntounto the Doctors, that what so euer they say, he straight taketh it for an Oracle: we may say vntounto him, as our Sauior said vntounto the Iewes: Euen Moses, in whome you trust, shall be a witnesse against you, so the Doctors shall be witnesses against master Harding, and his felowes, that when the Doctors do require to be iudged by the scriptures, yet they without scriptures will ground their faith vponupon them. Cursed be he, saith the Prophet, that trusteth in man, and maketh fleshe to be his arme. For my parte I reuerence the Doctors, and praise God for them, they were good stewards, and dispensed faithfully the goodes, that were committed vntounto them, they were men of excellent learning, great diligence, and godly life, and hauehave sufficiently confuted maister Hardings religion,Aduersus praxeā. De gene. ad litter. lib. 10. but yet they were men, and had all their erroures. Tertullian sayd God had a body, and therefore he was reprehended of Augustine. He thought not well in all poyntes of our sauioure Christe, as appeareth in his bookes de Trinitate, and aduersus Hermogenem, & Praxeam, where he teacheth that Christe is a portion of his father. Origen in diuers places wryteth very wickedly, as appeareth by Epiphanius, annumbring him among heretikes,Lib. 2. Co. 1. haer. 64 In serm. de Elemos. In serm. de resurrect.2 Cor 1 Cyprian sayde, that Christe did satisfie onelyonly for Originall sinne. Methodius sayd, we are iustified by fulfilling the lawe of nature, as Epiphanius reporteth. These were wicked heresies. The doctors that folowed after, had also many, and great faultes. I néede not recken maister Hardings Doctors, Clemens, Abdias, Martialis, Dyonisius, p. 179Hyppolitus, and suche other, they confute themselues: these others are the most auntient of any credite. And as they hauehave these, and sundry other erroures, so from age to age in all writers erroures did still growe, great controuersies were betwene the Gréekes and Latine church. The matter is too plaine, it néedeth no further proofe, and no doubt the spirite of God foreséeing these daungerous times, that shold ensue, when men should make Gods of those holy Fathers, grounding their faithe on them, as on the true foundation, the holy Ghost I say, did leaue them to their owne fansies, and suffred them to erre, to declare that they were but men, and that we should builde no further on them, than they did builde vponupon Christ, but examine all sayings, bothe theirs, and oures by the euerlasting woord of God, the only lanterne vntounto our fée…e, and the onelyonly light vntounto our steppes, which thing God for his Christes sake graunte vsus euermore to doe, Amen. For this other translation, post finem orationum, after the prayer of consecration, which is the 178. vntruthe, it is as soone proued to be yll, as maister Harding hath aduenturously sayde, it is good. He saith, they are Orationes, that are after Consecration, and precationes, which are before, and for this distinction he alleageth S. Augustine. Héere, christian reader, thou hast to note two things. First the distinction, then maister Hardings argument. As touching the distinction, that there are no Orationes till consecration is past, that is very false, the Masse booke it selfe hath Oremus, I wote not howe many times before they are at their saccaring, and I trow he that made the Masse booke, knewe what was in the Masse. Nowe for the argument, sée how it hangeth.

This it is, Prayers after consecration, are called Orationes, Ergo, Post finem orationum, is when consecration is done, I may with as good a reason as that, argue thus. Pomeridianum tempus, is the after noone: Ergo, Peracto p. 180pomeridiano tempore, is immediatly after .xij. of the clocke. This is euen such an other argument, and master Hardings hangeth as losely, as it. Thus if we will graunt M. Harding all his proofes, he will bothe make his Massebooke a lier, and frame againe as euil argumēts, as he maketh in his answer.

The B. of Sarisb.

In these words, cum benedixisset sancta, there is no mention of any sacrament.

Harding.

The .179. vntruthe. It is necessarily implied, though not in precise words.

Dering.

Is not this a straunge kinde of dealing? The word is not there saith M. Iuel, that is vntrue saith maister Harding, the meaning is necessarily implied. What néede any answer, to such vntruthes, as hauehave nether shame, nor vnderstanding? Likewise the next vntruthe, which is the .180. whether maister Harding call things, that are not, as though they are, bicause it is once mentioned in the .177. vntruthe, I recken it not here worth the touching.

The B. of Saris.

I hauehave already proued by sundry aucthorities, that Missa is often times vsed for any kinde of prayer. &c. and it further appeareth also by the councell of Cabilon.

Harding.

The .181. vntruthe. It is not yet proued.

The .182. vntruthe. It appeareth not by the councel of Cabilon.

Dering.

Maister Harding shall doe well, to deny M. Iuels proofe…, p. 181when he hath reproued them, and till that be done, he were best say nothing. Men may not now be ledde with his bare woord. What master Iuels proofes are, let the Reply be iudge. For the other vntruth about the councell of Cabilon, maister Harding vseth a great deale of wrāgling, and litle learning. For maister Iuel dothe alleage Gratians owne woords, as he reporteth it out of the councell. O saith maister Harding, the councel hath it not. If it be so, then the vntruthe is Gratians, and not master Iuels, and so M. Harding falleth out with his friends. But to cloke the matter againe, where the words as Gratian reporteth them, are, & auditis missarum solennibus, & vespertinis officijs. De consec. dist. 1. solent plures.He saith it is ment of the feast of the foure times, whē it was lawful to say Masse at night. Those times were, as I suppose, the first wéeke of Marche, the seconde of Iune, the thirde of September, and the fourth wéeke of December, but these first times liked not Vrbanus, Dist. 76. cō stituimus. Dist. vt sup. statuimus. Capdines mundi. Dist. 76. huius.therefore he turned them into the first wéeke of Lent, and into Whitsuntide, and so we had the spring fast, the summer fast, the haruest fast, and the winter fast, that by these .iiij. bookes, or hingels of the world, we might be taught, euen as with the foure Euangelies, bothe what to preache, and what to doe. Thus hauehave maister Hardings holy Popes pulled out of Goddes Churche, Gods eternall gospels, and made vsus newe gospels of their owne, and of those times saith maister Harding, that decrée is ment, at which times Masse might be sayde at night. But yet, as I remember, in Lent we had not many Masses at night, but in the forenoone we had Euensong, and all least the Euening prayer should be to long. Then if it be so, what doe these fasts héere to make answer, for their Masse, notwithstanding suche obseruation of dayes and monthes, and times, yet Masse in this place must signifie common prayer, and so this is no vntruthe. Or Masse was celebrate at night, and then what meaneth the .81. vntruthe? Read it.

p. 182The B. of Saris.

M. Harding seeketh for his Masse at Alexandria, a thousand miles out of Christendome.

Harding.

The .183. vntruthe. Alexandria is not a thousand miles out of Christendome.

Dering.

In the .171. vntruthe, where maister Iuel saith, about which time Mahomet spreade his religion in Arabia, maister Harding quoteth his vntruthe, and saith, Mahomet was not about that time, and yet he was at the vtmost within .xix. yeres of that time, now almost .1000. yeres past. And this is strange dealing, that of things done .1000. yeares past, within. xix. yeares compasse, we may not say, they were done about one time. Yet as though maister Harding there had done very well, he doeth againe the like in this place, sayth he, Alexandria is not a thousand mile out of Christendome, and bicause he will appeare constant, he maketh this againe, the .218. vntruthe, so little is he ashamed of his owne folly. And nowe what skilleth it whether it be iust a thousande mile off, or else want a mile or two of it? Is maister Harding euer the neare his priuate Masse? Yet take away two poore Ilands, Cyprus and Creta, a .1000. mile a sunder, and either of them .500. miles from christendome. And M. Harding cannot proue y^t any part of Alexandria is not a .1000. mile from christendome, then this exact computation of miles in so néedelesse a matter, may rather argue wranglyng, than proue an vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

In the Tripartite historie, it is written thus, Gregorie Nazianzene in a little Oratorie at Constantinople foreign made assemblies of people.

p. 183Harding.

The .184. vntruthe. It is not written so.

Dering.

This curious inquisition about words, which preiudice no partie, which way so euer you interprete them, declareth a great want of good matter to proue the thing it selfe, which lieth in controuersie. If these woords be not in the same place, yet the very allegation of the gréeke text is a sufficiēt proofe, they are found in the author. And therefore if false quoting the place, be the greatest fault, let it go for me, it is not worthy no answere.

The B. of Saris.

It was forbidden by many decrees, to mynister the sacrament in priuate houses.

Harding.

The .185. vntruthe. It was not forbidden.

Dering.

Untruthes may wel grow in number, where one may be reckened so many times. Read the .176. vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

M. Harding hath violently, and of purpose falsified the trāslation.

Harding.

The .186. vntruthe. My translation is true.

Dering.

Tell on in a circle M. Harding, and then your vntruthes shall neuer hauehave end. Read the .177. vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

The life of S. Basil hath bene set for the fully, and faithfully, p. 184by Gregorie Nissene, Gregorie Nazianzene, Gregorie Presbyter, Socrates, Theodoretus, Sozomenus, and Nicephorus.

Harding.

The .187. vntruthe. His life is not set out fully by them.

Dering.

God be mercifull vntounto vsus, and when his good will, and pleasure is, deliuer vsus from such wranglers. Is not a mannes life set out fully, when it is shewed what he hath done openly in the congregation? How he hath remoued from place to place? What doctrine he hath taught? What diligence he hathe vsed? What trouble he hathe suffred? What enimies he hath had? Whose companie he hath frequented? What learning he hath studied? What promotion he hath gotten? How many yeares he hath liued? And what euer else he hathe from time to time openly done, or suffred? All this is declared onelyonly by Gregorie Nazianzene in his Monodia, in his Oration De laudibus Basilij, and in sundry his Epistles, so that what soeuer maister Iuel saith, he alone hath done it, and that he ment so to doe, it is plaine inough, for as much as he entituleth his booke De vita Basilij, and yet though Nazianzene had not done so muche, but all these among them, had written this so fully, maister Iuels woords had bene true. So there is nothing héere to be said for maister Harding, but either he wrangleth, or misse vnderstandeth.

The B. of Saris.

None of them was so impudent, once to make any mention of this pieuishe tale of M. Hardings Masse.

Harding.

The .188. vntruthe. Vincentius maketh mention of it.

p. 185Dering.

Reade this tale of Amphilochius & Vincentius his words, and thou maist hardly think, that Vincentius, being so full of olde wiues fables, as he is, would so lightly hauehave passed ouer this wonderous matter of S. Basill. Maister Harding him selfe, who is much more temperate in such maner of miracles, than Vincentius is, by no meanes could let it passe without much practise of his eloquēce. By this it may be thought, that Vincentius neuer knew it, or if he knew it, he was ashamed to write it, being so manifest a lie, least he should hauehave discredited his whole fardle of newes. Thus much yet he saith, that may sound toward it, that God did teach Basil in a vision,Vinc. in speculo. Lib. 16. cap. 94. to offer vp sacrifice with his owne words. And vponupon this saying, Maister Harding aduentureth the quoting of his vntruth. To discharge this, it were vnnecessarie labour, considering the tale is so foolish, yet for Amphilochius and Vincentius sakes, that one of them may be founde a lier, I will a little lay these authors togither. Amphilochius saith, the next daye after this Masse was done, Basil made a golden doue to hang ouer the altar, and he put the third part of the host into it: Vincentius sayth, Basil being at that miraculous Masse, Columba aurea, In speculo. li. 14. ca. 44.quae cum sacramento domini super altare pendebat &c. the golden pigeon, which did hang ouer the altar with the sacrament of the Lord, did not moue thrée times, as it was wont to doe. &c. Bicause a certaine deacon was talking with a womā. Héere we sée Amphilochius saith, the pigeon was made the next day, Vincentius saith, if hong long before, ouer the altar. And that the tale may hauehave one … of Vincentius office, he saith, at euerie sataring, the pigeon was wont to moue thrice. Againe Amphilochius saith, there was no bodie but Eubulus, that looked in at a creuise. Vincentius saith, there was a deacon talking with a woman, and therefore the pigeon could not moue: and so either one of these two p. 186Doctours make a lie, and then Maister Harding proueth his priuate Masse, with a lie, or else Basil said Masse twice after his owne fashion, and then this is no vntruth. But saith Maister Harding, Antonius doeth also report this Masse,Par. 2. tit. 1. ca. 4. saying. I graunt he doeth so. And so doth Aesope, that apes, and asses spake. But I trow Maister Harding doeth not beleue him, no more doth any wise man his Antonius. He y^t list to hauehave y^e fabler reproued, let him reade the booke.

The B. of Saris.

Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith, that after Basils retourne from Pontus, Ensebius knew him not.

Harding.

The .189. vntruth. I assure you, my booke hath it not.

Dering.

Belike Maister Hardings Amphilochius, is but a patched boke. But if he wil go to that other at Verona in Italie, which is faire written in velem, there sure he shal finde it.

The B. of Saris.

Nazianzen saith, that Basil was not Bishop of Caesarea in Iulianus time.

Harding.

The .190. vntruth. Nazianzen saith not so.

Dering.

Maister Harding in his Reioinder, saith thus. Perhaps it is true, that Nazianzen was not then Bishop of Caesarea, but yet Nazianzen …aith it not. Now sure, good Reader, without all perhappes Maister Harding is a verie wrangler, that when he can not denie the thing, yet will stick so dainely vponupon the words. But say M. Har. what he say wil, p. 187both Nazianzen, & al other writers, which do speke of Basils doing, doe beare witnesse of this matter.Nazianz. in oratione de vita. Baesilij. Nazianzen reporteth, how vponupon dissention betwene him, & Eusebius, he went into Pontus. And when Valens for y^e furtherāce of Arrian heresie, came to Caesarea, and vexed much the faithfull; Nazianzen was sent to Basil, to call him home, for the aide of the church, vponupon which returne, he was reconciled to Eusebius, & in like authoritie gouerned the church. Now this being done, in the time of Valens, who was after Iouinian, and Basil, yet no Bishop, is it not then plaine, that Amphilochius is a lier, which sayth, Basill was Bishoppe in Iulians time, which was Emperour next before Iouinian? Yf there were no more to say, but this, yet this would proue Maister Harding were impudent in this vntruth. But Nazianzen speaketh yet more plaine, he saith, Basil was made bishop in Eusebius roome, after the death of Valens, In Monodiaabout the yeare of our Lorde .380. And for an vndoubted proofe, that he was no Bishoppe in Iulianus time, Basill him selfe writeth, that he was made chiefe of the church of Caesarea, when the Arrian heresie was in the greatest rage,Bas. ep. 61. et 69. which was after that Valens hadde raised the great persecution, for it. And this also thou shalt finde written in Socrates. Li. 4. ca.. 26.Now these authorities standing thus, as thou shalt finde them by examination, what will Maister Hardings perhaps, excuse him? Sure, that these manie vntruthes stande vponupon no grounde, but his impudent facings.

The B. of. Saris.

Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith, that Basil foretolde the death of Iulian, Theodoretus saith, it was one Iulianus Sabba, and not S. Basil.

Harding.

The .190. vn. Theodoretus saith not that Sabba foretold it.

The .192. vn▪ He saith not that Basil did not tell it.

p. 188Dering.

Maister Harding hath but a little way to go, and hath yet a great manie vntruths to make. Therfore taking good holde in time, in these words Sabba foretold it, and not Basil, he picketh it two vntruths. One that Sabba tolde it not, the other, that Basil tolde it. He might with as much facilitie hauehave made the thirde that and is a coniunction, & should couple two wordes and sentences together. But here by the way note, that Amphilochius telleth a fowle popish tale & an ilfauored vntruth, which Maister Harding thinketh good to skip ouer for shame, and with a good courage, goeth forward, making the reader beleue, al is wel. Reade the Replie. Fol. 83. Now to these vntruthes. If Sabba dyd foretell the death of Iulian: then notwithstanding Maister Hardings numbring, yet Basil foretolde it not. Then héere is the controuersie, whether Theodorete saith, that Iulianus Sabba, did tell it first. Then reade the place, and thou shalt finde it thus. When Libanius doeth aske of Sabba what the Carpenters sonne was now a doing,Theodoretus li. 3. ca. 24. Sabba aunswereth, that the maker of the worlde, whome he in mockage dyd call the Carpenters sonne, was making sandapilam, a héere to carie dead bodies, and sone after the Emperour dyed. Then it foloweth in y^e next chapter, that the same day that Iulian died, Resciuit cecidisse, Sabba knew he was dead, and tolde it vntounto his felowes. Now iudge who was the first teller of these newes, before the Emperour was dead, Sabba tolde Libanius his beare was a making, & the same daye that he died, he tolde it abrode. Now Basil being then not present with the Emperour, as likewise Sabba was not, but did know it miraculouslie, how could S. Basil tell it before him. No doubt, good Reader, when Maister Harding made two vntruthes of this, he had either slender iudgement or verie yll choise.

p. 189The B. of Saris.

Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith, Nazianzen was present at Basils death. Nazianzen him selfe saith, he came afterwarde.

Harding.

The .193. vntruth. Nazianzen saith not so in his Monodia.

Dering.

Maister Harding saith in his reioinder, he will not denie, that this is true. Reade his booke, & is not this a strange matter, y^t he noteth that for an vntruth, which he will not denie, but it is a truth. Yf he hauehave no thing to say, but that it is not in his Monodia, what skilleth it, so the thing be truely reported, whether the place be noted at all or no? I doe easely graunt, that Maister Iuel may be well deceiued in keping iust reconing of bookes, and chapters, but that is a slender fault, when he reporteth all, that is written, truely: Now to proue that this is true, and that Nazianzen was not at Basils death, it is manifest that he was at Arianzum, his owne patrimonie, and made his Epitaphe, and oration vponupon Basil, one whole yeare after Basil was dead. And whē he hadde done, he went home againe, as it is sufficiently proued by Grigorie Nissene. And Gregorius Presbiter doeth witnesse the same,Grego. presb. in vita Nazianzen. that Nazianzen came long after that Basil was dead, thus graunting that it be not founde in Nazianzens Monodia, yet by other good witnesse, Amphilochius is proued a lier. Now for misnaming the place, alleaging the authoritie truely, I shall néede to make no longe aunswere. The fault is so small, that it doth excuse it selfe.

The B. of Saris.

Maister Hardings, Amphilochius is so impudent, to say Nazianzen came in all hast, and saw the blessed bodie, and fell vponupon it, when it was buried.

p. 190Harding.

The .194. vntruthe. Amphilochius saith not, he fell vponupon him vvhen he vvas buried.

Dering.

In this vntruth is nothing but a little wrangling, about this saying, when he was buried. Which wordes whether they be in Amphilochius or no, I meane not yet to go to Verona and looke. Sure it is, he could not fall on him, when he was couered with moulde, and sith the matter is no weightier, let it rest for me. Now Maister Harding skippeth ouer one other lie, and maketh no defence of Amphilochius writing it, but leaues that altogither vntouched, for a testimonie, what him selfe thinketh of Amphilochius. After all this a doe about him, he giueth him ouer, with this round conclusion,Reioind. fol. 267. be he as he is, I neither defend him, nor condemne him, he is ashamed any further to defende him, bicause he is a shamelesse lier, and yet he wil not condemne him, bicause he maketh a tale for Maister Hardings Masse. In the meane season, we hauehave some gesse what the author is, when his great friendes dare not defend him. Now Maister Harding skippeth ouer two leaues at once, and so draweth to an ende.

The B. of Saris.

Chrysostome saith, some are called, and some are brought to receiue with the Priest. diuis. 34.

Harding.

The .195. vntruth. Chrisostome saith not so.

Dering.

If M. Harding did now begin his wrangling, it were peraduenture requisite more at large to blame it, but bicause p. 191it is common, y^e reader I trust, is alredie forewarned to beleue nothing that he saith, without some other witnesse. Therefore his credit being thus broken, & the proofe of this vntruth being so slender, there is no great daunger least any man should take hurt by it. I will omit therefore further proofe of Maister Iuels saying, and I onelyonly require to consider this maner of vntruth. Thus Maister Iuel alleageth Chrisostoms words. Some are called, some brought to receiue with y^e priest. That is not so, saith Maister Harding, they are not called to receiue with the Priest. This then must be iudged by Chrisostome, he writeth thus. The Deacon standing vpright in the sight of all the people.Ad pop. Ant. hom. 61. &c. Some he calleth, to communicate, and some he putteth off. Now how can any indifferent man say▪ that Maister Iuell misreporteth these wordes? But so it is, Maister Harding hath shut from him all indifferencie, and doeth let affection miserably blinde his vnderstanding, and by that meanes, hath espied this vntruth, and the vntruth is, that Chrisostome hath not these wordes, with the Priest,Reioind. …o. 281. but they are Maister Iuels owne addition. But what meaneth he? Doth he think the people did receiue without y^e priest? or if they did not, when Chrisostome saith, they were called to receiue, how is it vntrue to report his saying, they were called to receiue with the priest? Doe these vntruths néede many words to iustifie them? or were not silence the best aunswere to so great folies? Let the Reader iudge.

The B. of Saris.

If no bodie receiued, then is it not true, that some receiued.

Harding.

The .196. vntruth. Chrisostome saith not that, some receiued.

p. 192Dering.

If the last vntruthe, were not worth the noting, then what store hath he, that is faine to number it twice? Yet so it is, this purposed number hath driuen M. Harding to such inconuenience. The former vntruthe was, Chrisostome said not, some receiued with the priest, this is, he saith not some receiue, if he would make the third, that some receiue not with, it had euen as good reason as either of these. But let these vntruthes alone, they cannot doe much harme. OnelyOnly I must admonish thée, that after this long ado with Maister Iuel, Maister Harding for his exercise, will fights little with him selfe. Here he saith, that Chrisostome saith not, that some receiue, yet out of this same place of Chrisostome alleaging these wordes,Hard. diuis. 34 et reioind. fol. 290. Cum timore dei, et fide, et dilectione accedite, he doeth english them thus, come you vp to receiue, with the feare of God &c. These cōtrary sayings without one vntruth, cannot be reconciled. If there he wel translated it, come vp to receiue, then this is no vntruth. If this be vntrue, then that was a false translation. One of these can not be denied.

The B. of Saris.

He saith, the people in the Cities were daylie taught by sermons.

Harding.

The .197. vntruthe. I say not so, let my booke be iudge.

Dering.

Maister Harding by like, doth say, and vnsay, and careth not, what he say. These are his verie wordes. Now if Chrisostome had cause to complaine of the peoples slacknesse in that great, and populous citie of Antioche, where the scriptures were daily expounded,Diuis 34. and preached. &c. And here I p. 193say as Maister Harding saith, let his booke be iudge. And why then is this vntruth scored vp with other? Would he hauehave vsus think, that this preaching were onelyonly in Antioche, and no where else? This might well be, if papistrie hadde ben then in vre, and preaching not regarded. But to think it of that world, in which good religion florished, and Gods word was plentifull, it is an vncharitable gessing. Thus much I speake, graunting Maister Hardings wordes, that in Antioche, the people were daily taught. And then if it were so, the same vse had ben likewise kept in other cities, so Maister Hardings owne wordes going for true, this can be no vntruth, but how true those wordes are, Maister Iuel doeth sufficiently proue, reade his Replie, he doeth alleage Chrysostomes owne wordes, to proue, that in Antioche they had sermons but once a wéeke, and therevpon he saith further, thus.

The B. of Saris.

I note this, not for that I mislike of daily preaching, but for that vntruth so boldelie presumed, should not passe vntouched.

Harding.

The .198. vntruth. It is no vntruth.

Dering.

I am sorie to trouble the reader, with aunswering to so vaine vntruthes, but so it is, if nothing should be said, they would be thought of some force. Maister Harding vseth this reason, to proue his priuate Masse. In Antiochie there was but a verie few to communicate sometime. Therfore in the countrey belike there was priuate Masse. Of this argument, Maister Iuel saith thus, to aduaunce the citie, & to abase the countrey, he saith, in cities they had dayly sermons, but this is vntrue. For in Antioche, they had not so. Now rise M. Hardings two vntruthes. 1. I say not they p. 194were taught so in cities. 2. They were taught so in Antioche. Who could hauehave scraped out these vntruthes, but he? Or what force is there in them? For this second vntruth, where he still affirmeth, they had dayly preaching in Antioche, that is a very false lie, and yet how impudently doth be persist in it.

The B. of Saris.

Yet saith Maister Harding, in small countrey churches, either the Priest let cease the dayly sacrifice, or else he receiued alone.

Harding.

The .199. vntruth. I say not so. This is altogether falsified.

Dering.

I pray God, Maister Harding be not altogether without grace. He so vnreuerently speaketh euill of authoritie, so boldely denieth his owne sayings, that his cause is much to be feared. Marke here Maister Iuels wordes, I will lay M. Hardings wordes with them, then iudge whether here be any vntruth. Thus he writeth, of such countrey churches,Diuis. 34. it must be sayd, that either the sacrifice ceased. &c. Or that the memorie of our Lords death was oftentimes celebrated of the Priestes in the daily oblation, without tarying for others to communicate with them. Marke now how Maister Iuel chaungeth these wordes, either the daily sacrifice ceased, saith Maister Harding, either the priest let cease the daily sacrifice, saith Maister Iuell. What is here falsified? If it dyd cease, the Priest ceased it. For, I trow, the lay man might not say Masse, if he would. The other péece of Maister Hardings saying is this, or else the memorie of our Lords death was often times celebrated of the priestes, in the daily oblation without tarying for other to communicate with them. These many words, bicause oftedious writing, Maister Iuell reporteth this, or p. 195the priest receiued alone. Now iudge of this place, which Maister Harding saith is altogether falsified, and praye that Maister Harding may once hauehave eies to sée. The .200. vntruth. Here Maister Harding noteth an vntruth in the margin, that is not in the text. When he telleth vsus what it is, we will better examine it.

The B. of Saris.

The Masse, that is so glorious, can neither be founde in churches, nor chappels.

Harding.

It is found both in churches, and chappels.

Dering.

It is not yet found, neither in church, nor chappell, within .600. yeares of Christ.

The B. of. Saris.

Thus saith Chrysostome, if thou stand by, and not receiue, thou art malapert, thou art shamelesse, thou art impudēt. 2. thine eies be vnworthie the sight herof, vnworthie be thine eares. 3. O thou wilt say, I am vnworthie to be partaker of the holie mysteries: then art thou vnworthie to be partaker of the praiers. 4. Thou maist no more stay here, than an heathen, that ueuer was christened.

Harding.

The .202. vntruthe. Chysostome doeth not say these vvordes.

The .203. vntruthe. Chrysostome saith not then an heathen vnchristened.

Dering.

Sure good Reader, the numbring of these vntruthes, p. 196is verie straunge, here is one. Chrysostome saith not these wordes, an other he saith not, then an heathen. &c. I would faine know here in the first vntruth, what Maister Harding meaneth by these words. If he meane the whole sentence, why maketh he an other truth? If he meane all the sentence going before this latter vntruth, why doeth he not make of it thrée seuerall vntruthes. For it is distinguished into thrée seuerall sentences, or if he think, but one of those sentences is false, why doeth he not tell vsus which it is? Certaine it is, Maister Harding did know, that these former partes of this allegation, were all true. Yet bicause they had so many members, he thought he might conuey one vntruth verie well amongst them. For the truth of this allegation, reade S. Chrysostome. hom. 3. ad Ephe. and thou shalt beleue thine owne sences. I will alleage for thée certaine words. Reade y^e place, thou shalt finde moe. Thus be saith of those, that are by, and will not receiue. 1. Tu vero impudenter astas, thou standest by verie impudently. 2. quisquis mysteriorum particeps non est, impudens est, et improbus si adstat, he that is present, and will not communicate, he is impudent, and wicked. 3. Indigni sunt videntium oculi, indignae aures, thine eies are not worthy to see it, thine eares are not worthie to heare it. 4. Nihil hic tibi qùā, cathecumeno, plus licet. Thou hast no more to do here, thē cathecumeni, they that are vnchristened, and not yet brought to the perfect faith of Christ, & here is this second vntruth also proued. Marke now these wordes, and sée whether Maister Iuel report any thing that Chrysostom saith not. Thē Maister Harding with shame enough, hath noted these vntruths, and, for his these words, except he meane his owne wordes, here can be none found that are not in the author. Ad. Eph. hom. 3. and make but little for his Masse.

The B. of Saris.

Chrysostome saith, in vaine doe we come to offer the daylie sacrifice, in vaine doe we stand at the alter, meaning thereby as may p. 197appeare, that if he saide priuate Masse for lacke of companie, it was in vaine.

Harding.

The .140. vntruth. These are not Chrysostomes vvordes, nor this his meaning.

Dering.

Here M. Hard. séemeth to be somewhat more liberall in numbring his vntruths, he might well hauehave made two vntruthes of this, one, these are not Chrysostomes wordes, an other, this is not his mening. Sure he is not wont to let go such aduantage, but peraduēture he saw here so little hope, that he would be content with one vntruthe, quietlie. Yet bicause we defende the truth, we may not alow him that. First, for Chrysostomes wordes, thus they are, Frustra habetur quotidiana oblatio, frustra stamus ad altare. Hom. …. ad. Eph.In vaine doe we offer the daylie sacrifice, in vaine doe we stande at the altar? Here is this vntruth verified concerning the words, say Maister Harding what he say will. If these be not the wordes, then accompt me for a lier. If they be the wordes, then iudge of the vntruth, as touching y^e meaning of these wordes, were it not for Maister Hardings faultfinding, it shold sure hauehave escaped without blame, he saith,Reioind. fo. 289. y^e meaning is this, it is in vaine, as touching the people, not as touching the Priest, this meaning is vntrue, for Chrysostome saith, Frustra stamus, we that be the ministers stande there in vaine. But for my parte, I would this distinction were good, then we should know throughly, what marchandise these Masses were. Saith M. Haridng they are in vaine for the people except they come and receiue. Good Lorde, how do they then mock the people that teach them to come dayly, and gase vponupon their Masses, blessed be truth, that breaketh out. All priuate Masse is ill, and all Masse gasers doe wickedlie, the frute of Gods sacraments are not applied, p. 298to those, that will not come, and be partakers of them. If Maister Harding hauehave lost so much of his cause by noting one vntruth in this place, what would he hauehave done, if he had noted a couple?

The B. of Saris.

Here Maister Hardyng seing that his Masse, euen by his owne testimonie, is shreudly crackt, assayeth to salue it as well, as he may.

Harding.

The .205. vntruth. I see not, that the Masse is crackt.

Dering.

In this vntruth, we hauehave two things to note, Maister Hardings sight, and the cracking of his Masse. As touching his sight, I can say little. But I doe easely beleue it is not verie good. There are a great many authorities in this first article, which he can not sée to aunswere one whit, sometime two, or thrée leaues together, in which he can not sée to cōfute one word. His owne writings are so ful of darknesse, and cloudes of errours, that he can not sée to come nigh the truth, and yet in this great shadowe of his eies, he proueth effectually the common prouerbe, who is so bold as blinde bayard? For the cracking of his Masse, he can say but little, onelyonly in defence of that mishapen strumpet, he vseth vncomly language against the Bishop of Sarisburie. But how can a wicked cause be better defended, than with euill speaking. For his Lady Missa, she is as she is. Thanks be to God for the victorie, she is well crackt of late, she hath glorified hir selfe, and liued in pleasure, she hath ben full of triūphes, & signes of victorie, she hath dwelt carelesse in hir fensed cities, she hath said in hir heart, I am, & none else, I am no widow, & I shall sée no morning. Now whether this glorie be yet crackt, or no, and these proude pecocks feathers falne downe, hir owne heauie lookes doe sufficiently p. 199witnesse. Hir widowhed commeth fast vponupon hir, and manie of hir louers are run away, hir owne barrennesse increaseth daily, and hir children wax few in number, the multitude of hir diuinations hauehave brought euill vponupon hir, hir fornications, and idolatries hauehave seperated betwene God, and hir. And can Maister Harding yet think, that his Masse is still vncracked, hir dominions were verie large, & wide, and hir kingdomes plentifull, hir buildings were costly, & verie sumptuous, and hir cofers rich, hir apparell was gorgious, & of nedel worke, set out in most pleasant colours, hir ornaments of inameled golde, bewtifull with manie iewlls, and precious stones, and for the full measure of hir accomplished glorie, she had the Princes of the earth to minister hir cuppes vntounto hir, Kings to be hir waiting seruants, and Emperours to hold hir fotestoole. If this estate were yet in hir woūted royaltie, then might Maister Harding well say, that his Masse were not cracked. Now seing all is lost, hir buildings are pulled downe, hir fortresses batered, hir treasuries spoiled, her estimation lost, and she hir selfe set without the quire, we giuegive thankes vntounto God, that hath giuen this victorie, and we are sorie for Maister Hardings blindnesse, that can not yet sée how his Masse is crackt.

The B. of Saris.

If none communicate, yet saith he, the Masse is not vaine in it selfe, but onelyonly as touching the people, that will not come.

Harding.

The .206. vntruth. I say not so.

Dering.

Here M. Hard. willing to stop that great inconuenience, p. 200that riseth of his .204. vntruth, maketh a flat deniall of his owne wordes, and lest this contrarietie should bréed any péece of discredit, he goeth about with a distinction to salue the whole matter, whereby he hath got this double commoditie, a plaister for his Masse, which before he hadde wounded, & an vntruthe to make vp his proposed number. And his distinction is this. I say not y^t the Masse is in vaine, but that the oblation is in vaine,Reioind. fol. 260. making a great difference betwene his Masse and oblation. But this matter doth not so well thriue, as Maister Harding wéeneth his Masse and oblation must néedes be both one, else how could his Masse be saide to be a sacrifice propitiatorie for quick, and dead, sith the sacrifice can onelyonly be ment by the oblation. But let vsus take Maister Hardings words, as they are. The oblatiō, saith he, is in vaine to the people, that will not come. Here he speaketh not onelyonly against his companions, but against the Pope, and against his Masse booke. The decrée saith the oblation is good, that is offred for Iudah and Ierusalem, that is for them that cōfesse the Lord.Dist. 50. et purgabit. And the masse booke saith, Hanc oblationem offerimus pro ecclesia tua sancta catholica. We offer this oblation for the whole catholike church. Yet saith Maister Harding,In canone. this oblation is in vaine. If he him selfe will thus speake against Pope, and portus, he may peraduenture, crack his Masse, ere he be ware. But it is well. We take that Maister Harding graunteth, except the people receiue, the celebration, or sacrifice made by y^e priest is in vaine, so his priuate Masse is quit… condemned.

The B. of Saris.

If Maister Harding will stand vntounto the authoritie of Chrysostome, let him not dissemble, but speake plaine vntounto the people, as Chrysostom spake. Let him say to thē that come to heare his masse, if ye receiue not, ye are shamelesse, ye are impudent, you are not worthie to be partakers of the common prayers. Depart you from p. 201the Church: ye hauehave no more place here than Turks and heathens: your eyes be vnworthy to see these things, vnworthy be your eares, our Masses can not profite you, they are not meritorious for you, they please not God: they prouoke his anger, they are all in vaine, This is Chrysostomes sense, and plaine meaning.

Harding.

The .207. vntruthe. These are not his words.

The .208. vntruthe. Nor his meaning.

Dering.

Héere I must craue of the indifferent Reader, to note this manner of quoting vntruthes. Of these very words of Chrysostome, before he made two vntruthes the .202. and .203. Here of them all he maketh but one. Yet if there be but one, nowe there was but one afore, and so one vntruthe is made thrée. Againe, before he made no vntruth as touching the meaning: now he maketh one. Yet if there be one now, there was one afore, & so of two vntruthes, which is very vnlike, he will nū ber but one, againe in the .204. vntruthe, he maketh but one vntruthe bothe of the words, and meaning, héere seuerally he maketh one of either: this diuersitie of gathering must néedes shewe a matter of little waight. Now as touching these two vntruthes, and the wordes héere saide of maister Iuel, he neither saith, nor meaneth that they are al in Chrysostome. But alleaging certaine, as is shewed in the .202. vntruth, he héere addeth more. For example to shew the Massing priestes how they should speake vntounto the people? What, troweth maister Harding to persuade the people, that maister Iuel maketh Chrysostome to speake of their Masses? Héere in these words the Masse is plainely named, yet y^e good father did neuer know what suche spirituall whoredomes did meane. And yet héere M. Harding to cary away the readers vnderstanding, in his railing spirite he speaketh great blasphemies against Gods electe, and calleth him the forerunner of Antichrist, whome p. 202God hath appointed one to be an ouer runner of the Romish Idolatries. But God be praised in all his saints.

The B. of Saris.

Now let vsus examine this inuincible argument, wherwith eueryevery childe, as Maister Harding saith, is able to proue the priuate Masse.

Harding.

The .209. vntruthe. I say not so, let my booke be iudge.

Dering.

These are his woords of this most euident place of Chrysostome: Diuis 34.eueryevery childe is able to make an inuincible argument against master Iuel for the priuate Masse: these are his very w…ords, I say, as he saith, let the booke be iudge, and he that is found a lier, let him hauehave the blame.

The B. of Saris.

This is M. Hardings argument. The sacrifice in Chrysostomes time, was daily offred. But many times none came to Communicate. Ergo, there was priuate Masse. Heere the Maior is apparant false, the Minor is proued at aduenture.

Harding.

The .210. vntruthe The Maior is true.

The .211. vntruthe. The Minor is well proued.

Dering.

In the .133. vntruthe maister Iuel proued by S. Augustine ▪ that in some place the people receiued eueryevery day, there maister Harding dothe note that for vntrue, héere maister Iuel proueth by S. Augustine, that in some place they receiued not euerye day. H…ere likewise maister Harding noteth p. 203this for vntrue. And yet howe can bothe these be vntrue? More circumspect behauioure in so false dealing hadde bene necessary. Now as touching bothe these sayings of maister Iuel, that somewhere the people did receiue eueryevery day, somewhere only on certaine dayes, let S. Augustines woordes be witnesses. Thus he wryteth. The Sacrament of the body of Christ, is receiued somewhere eueryevery day,Aug. in Ioh. tract. … alicubi certis inter…allis dierum, somewhere on certaine dayes only. As long as this aucthoritie may stande for good, maister Iuels saying hath a good warrant. And though it were not good, yet maister Hardings two vntruthes must néedes one ouerthrow an other. As touching this other vntruthe, that none came to receiue with the priest, sée whether it be proued at aduenture or no. Thus maister Harding saith, if there were but fewe to Communicate in that great, and famous Churche of Antioche, what may be thought of a thousand lesser churches.Diuis. 34. &c. Nowe whether this proofe be at all aduentures, and a bare gesse, it is soone iudged. Concerning Chrysostomes aucthority here, read the Replie.Fol. ….

The B. of Saris.

As for the Maior it is plaine by the .6. councell of Constantinople, by S. Augustine vponupon S. Iohn, by S. Basil, ad Caesariam patritiam, by the Epistle of the councel of Alexandria in defence of Macarius, and by the councell of Laodicea, and by sundry other aucthorities to that purpose before al…eaged, that the sacrifice was not daily offred.

Harding.

The .212. vntruthe. S. Augustine hath the contrary.

Dering.

If S. August. speake contraries, he is sure the more to blame, p. 204but who séeth not by S. Augustines plaine woordes in this former vntruthe alleaged, that where he saith the sacrifice is daily offred, it is to be ment of certaine places, not of all. This vntruthe is directly contrary to the .83.133.14-5.156. vntruthes. But what skilleth that, where M. Harding may be beleued? Héere note that all these other aucthorities are cōtrolled, and yet notwithstāding M. Harding presumeth vpō his vntruths. Sure the number was appointed too large, that coulde not be made vp, without suche foule shifts.

The B. of Sarisb.

Maister Harding saw that this is but a slender proofe: Chrysostome ministred eueryevery day, therfore he receiued alone.

Harding.

The .213. vntruth. Maister Harding could not see that in Chrysostome, vvhichwhich Chrysostome hath not.

Dering.

What M. Harding séeth only, M. Harding knoweth. But what a fonde vntruthe héere is quoted, that I trow eueryevery mā may witnesse. Thus saith M. Iuel, M. Harding séeth this is but a slender proofe, master Harding saith, he can not sée it in Chrysostome. In déede that is true, who saith it is in Chrysostome? He was too well learned to make such lose argumēts. I would faine heare of some of M. Hardings friends, how he could excuse this vntruthe, and what it meaneth.

The B. of Saris.

M. Harding hath deuised a way how two priests, saying their Masses in diuers countreis, may yet Communicate together in breaking bread.

Harding.

The .214 vntruthe. I doe not say they can communicate in breaking bread.

p. 205Dering.

This vntruthe was numbred once before. Reade the .107. vntruthe. There are M. Hardings plaine woords. What he meaneth héere againe to recken this vntruthe, saue onelyonly for numbers sake, no man I trow knoweth. And yet how fondly, and with what a blinde distinction he dothe it, it shall not be a misse to tell thée. He saith héere, they doe not breake bread together. But saith he, they participate of one bread,Reioinder. fo. 300. and communicate together, be the distaunce betwéene them neuer so great. This plain saying he hath in his Reioinder, intermingled with a few other woords. Read the place. Now if maister Harding do thus vnderstand M. Iuel, as if he ment that two priestes many miles a sunder might breake the same loafe: that imagination is too grose, and no wise man wil alow it. If he meane any spirituall breaking, then his owne words alowe the saying for good, then this vntruthe proueth nothing against M. Iuel, but reproueth M. Harding either of foly, or else of falshoode.

The B. of Saris.

Lay people, wemen, sicke folkes, and boyes, are brought in to proue his Masse.

Harding.

The .215. vntruthe. They are not brought to proue the Masse.

Dering.

Maister Harding is very nigh at an ende, & his number is not yet ful. Therfore being enforced to take vntruthes as he may, he is lighted on suche a place, as he could not light on a worse. This vntruthe is reckened .v. times before, the .87.101.126.128.129. and now the .215. It had bene requisite to hauehave ben better, that should serue so many turnes.

p. 206The B. of Saris.

Heere be brought in a company of petie Doctors, all of doubtfull credite.

Harding.

The .216. vntruthe. They be not of doubtfull credite.

Dering.

Now we be at the bottome of these vntruths, M. Harding is faine to draw out dregges, and all. There was inough said before of Amphilochius, and his fellowes, and some of them M. Harding had quite turned, and that he would neither defend them,Reioinder. Fol. 267. The .194. vntruth. nor condemne them. But now necessity doth make him breake his promise, rather than he shold lose an vntruth, they must be all of good credite againe. They that list, let them so accompt them.

The B. of Saris.

This matter is made good by visions, dreames, and fables.

Harding.

The .217. vntruthe. I proue it not by dreames.

Dering.

Héere saith M. Harding this tale of Amphilochius is neither dreame,Reioinder. Fol. 300. Reioinder. Fol. 262. nor fable, but it appeared vntounto him good aucthoritie. Yet he saith before, that whether it be a vaine fable, or a true story, he wil not determine wel, let this contrarietie goe. Whether it be a fable or no, iudge thou. Here further as touching maister Hardings Philosophy in so exacte defining of dreames and visions, bicause he taketh vponupon him to control a better Philosopher than him self. And in this word, dreame, wil hauehave the force of his vntruthe, saying it was a vision, and no dreame which S. Basil saw, that distinction is more curious p. 207than learned, for the two Gréeke woords foreign and foreign, that is a dreame, and a vision, doe bothe signifie those things which be true, vnlesse he wil say, that a dreame dothe signifie more largely, then foreign or somnium, and yet if it doe, a vision must néedes be a dreame, though eueryevery dreame be not a vision, so this vntruthe by no meanes can be iustified.

The B. of Saris.

He hath made searche for his Masse at Alexandria in Aegipt, at Antioche in Syria, at Caesarea in Cappadocia, a thousande miles beyonde Chrystendome.

Harding.

The .218. vntruthe. These cities are not a thousande miles beyond Christendome.

Dering.

This vntruthe was not worthe twise numbring. Read the 183. vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

Bicause he had no hope to spede in townes, he hathe sought out little churches in the countrey.

Harding.

The .219. vntruthe. I hauehave proued that the Masse was celebrated in townes.

Dering.

This vntruthe is soone gathered, but when M. Harding dothe proue it, not only maister Iuel, but all other, that impugne their superstitious vanities, will soone subscribe. In the meane season he must not builde vp his vntruthes with suche sayings, as we openly maintaine bothe in worde, and wryting.

p. 208The B. of Saris.

Likewise S. Paule willed one to waite for an other in the holy ministration.

Harding.

The .220. vntruthe. These words are not ment of the ministration of the Sacrament.

Dering.

These words of S. Paule goe very nighe M. Hardings priuate Masse, and therfore it behoueth him for his Masses sake, to stande stiffely in it, that they belong not vntounto the ministration of the Lords supper. For if they doe belong vntounto it, then no doubt M. Hardings Masse is a sinke of iniquitie, that is so contrary vntounto S. Paules woords.1. Co. 11.33.1 Cor 11:33 Now for better discussing of this, bicause in trying it this priuate Masse shall be better knowne, let vsus examine. S. Paules woordes. Thus he saithe. Wherfore, my brethren, when ye come together to eate, tary one for an other. This saith M. Harding, is to be vnderstand of certaine Churche feastes, which they had, called foreign, and not of the Communion, and as though this were not said with shame inoughe, he saith in an other place, that in that chapter, S. Paule dothe not rebuke them for the manner of ministring this Sacrament, but for their abusing of their church feasts.Reioinder. fol. 99. Now for proofe of this interpretation, he onelyonly alleageth the bare names of Chrysostome and Theodoretus, and this is al he can bring. Read Reioinder. fol. 306. Now let vsus sée againe what on the other side may be said to proue that S. Paule meaneth of the ministration of the Sacrament. And this we may sée bothe by the testimonie of all the old Doctors, and most vndoubtedly by examination of the place it selfe. Athanasius applieth all that place to the Communion in plaine woords, Occumenius saith only the Lords supper is there spoken of, and vponupon this place inuicem expectate, tary one for an p. 209other. Thus he writeth. Itaque: Quamobrem. Ne indigne corpus domini, & sanguinem participare probemini. Therefore saith the Apostle. Wherefore: Least you should be proued to participate the Lordes body, and bloud vnworthely. By this Doctor he receiueth vnworthily, that in the congregation receiueth alone. Theophylacte a later wryter vponupon the same place, saith: Why should we pray our selues? Quia haudquaquam meritò id mysterium sumunt multi, bicause many do receiue that mysterie nothing worthely. By all these Doctors this place is ment of the Communion. S. Ambrose saith: It any man be impacient, domi terreno pane pascatur, Let him eate earthly bread at home. And againe, we come to gether, vt multorum oblatio simul celebretur, that the Oblation of many might be made together. But S. Ambrose calleth not prophane meats, suche as their common feasts were, either heauenly bread, or our oblation. S. Chrysostome saith, qui hoc non faciunt, indigne communicant, they that tary not one for an other, doe communicate vnworthily. And héere againe, we sée this Doctors minde of priuate Masse, or as M. Harding wil hauehave it, of the priestes sole receiuing. Beda saith likewise, alleaging S. Augustine. Ad Ianuar. Epist. 1. that this,Aug. de sal. docu. cap. 33. Bas in reg. cōt. q. 310. Greg. exposi. in. 1. Sacu. lib. 2. ca. 10. which the Apostle writeth in this place, is ment of the Communion. S. Ierome also dothe so enterprete it. Read all these vponupon the xj. chapter of the first Epistle to the Corinthians. Of the same minde are also Augustine, Basil, Gregorius Romanus. And if thou rest vponupon the aucthoritie of men, examine all the olde Doctors, that hauehave written vponupon the same place, & not them only, but suche as are of yonger age, as Thomas, Scotus, Lyra, Hugo, gloss. ordinaria, and suche other. They all agrée: this saying of S. Paule, tary one for an other, is ment of the Communion, Dionysius Carthusianus on the same place speaketh very plaine, when ye come together to eate, saith S. Paule. Panem coelestem, saith Dionysius the heauēly bread, videlicet corpus Domini, that is to say, the body of the Lord. And Nicholas of Gorram vponupon these woordes, tary one for an other, p. 210wryteth thus. Docet modum in hora communionis ordinate accedendo, he teacheth howe to come orderly in the time of Communion. What plainer aucthoritie can there be, than these? Who séeth not that all antiquitie hauehave vnderstande S. Paules words of the Communion? If thou search them, thine eyes shall be thy witnesse. Yet saithe maister Harding, (as he were priuiledged, without blame or discredite to speake what he would,) that Martyr, Caluine, Cranmer, and suche other, hauehave deceiued maister Iuel:Reioinder. Fol. 92. but it is wonderfull to sée howe he speaketh against the truthe, the Lord knoweth whether against his owne conscience. Read the Replie. Fol. 94. thou shalt further sée▪ how in the Communion, the people came togither. But as touching this place, bicause the spirite of God is not tied to any man, or age, we will leaue our witnesses, and examine the place. First, S. Paule blameth them, bicause they come togither, not with profite, but with hurt. And then teaching how they ought to come togither, and in what sorte to hauehave their méetings, he teacheth them by the example of our sauior Christ, and his doctrine: saying▪ that which I hauehave receiued of the Lord,…. Cor. 11.18. that I hauehave deliuered vntounto you, that Iesus Christ in y^e same night y^t he was betrayed, tooke bread. &c. making a full description of the Lords supper: whereunto be adioyneth for this cause, many of you are weak. &c. foreign For this cause, which is the vnorderly receiuing the communion. Yet saith M. Harding, it is ment of their feastes. After this it dothe folow in Paule: Wherfore my brethren, when you come togither to eate, tary one for an other. Now if this be not yet plaine inough, that he meaneth of the Sacrament, then looke what foloweth, an vndoubted proofe of the whole matter. Least saith S. Paule, you come togither to your condemnation. Is this at any time pronounced of any manner eating, but of the vnworthy eating of that blessed sacrament? Yet for the priuate Masse sake, this plaine scripture must be denyed, and impudently wrested into a straunge sense. And marke héere how maister Harding would hauehave S. Paule reason, p. 211the woordes before are plaine of the Lordes supper. Of those words S. Paule concludeth: wherefore my brethren. &c. Then by maister Hardings meaning, S. Paule should reason thus: A man must prepare him selfe to receiue the Communion, Ergo, they must tary one for an other, at their common feastes: such lose arguments, the spirite of truth doth not vtter. But suche is M. Hardings fashion, he dothe not consider how he wresteth Gods scripture, while he thus defendeth his vngodly Masse.

The B. of Saris.

The like decrees are found vnderunder the names of Calixtus, Anacletus, Martinus, Hyllarius, and others: by which it is certain that the whole church then receiued togither.

Harding.

The .221. vntruthe. It is not certaine by those decrees.

Dering.

Sée the .151. vntruthe. It is the same in effecte, that this is. But let vsus sée héere also, how truely M. Harding speaketh. It doeth not appeare by these decrées, saith he, that all receiued togither: this shall be best tried by the words of the Decrées. Calixtus saith thus. When consecration is done,De cōs. dis 2. peracta. De cōs. dis. 1. Episcopus. De cōs. dis. 2. Si non. De cōs. dis 2. Si quis. Lu…uria, vide glossam. let all communicate, which will not be excluded out of the Churche. Anacletus hath the very selfe same woords, but how it cometh to passe, let the Decretal epistles sée, that hauehave this agréement very often, and yet it is very straunge, that diuers menne should speake the same woordes. Hylarius saythe, if thy sinnes be not so great, that thou must be excommunicate, thou must not seperate thy selfe, from the body and bloude of the Lorde. Martinus sayth. If any man heare the scriptures readen, and of a superstitious minde, doe thinke he should not Communicate, sette him be excommunicate: p. 212now iudge whether these decrées teach, that the whole church should receiue together. M. Harding can answere nothing, but bringeth two distinctions, one olde, one, which we had before in the .151. vntruthe, an other he maketh more to answere Pope Hilarie, and that is this, where Hilarie saith: If he be not excommunicate, let him not abstaine from the sacrament. We may abstaine, saith M. Harding, sacramentally, though not spiritually. If these distinctions may be alowed, ther is no aucthoritie so good, but let M. Harding slip, and he wil answer it. But S. Paule saith, take héede y^t no man spoile you through Philosophy, and vaine deceit.

The B. of Sarisb.

Chrysostome saith, we are all of one worthinesse to receiue the mysteries.

Harding.

The .222. vntruthe. He saith not so.

Dering.

These are Chrysostomes words. Est autem vbi, nihil differt sacerdos a subdito, vt quādo fruendum est horrendis mysterijs. Similiter enim omnes, vt illa percipiamꝰ, digni habemur, there is a time saith he, when the priest dothe differ nothing from the lay man, as when they must enioy the dreadful mysteries. For we are al accompted of like worthinesse to receiue them. And that we should not doubt of his meaning, he maketh afterward along discourse to proue this same. Yet saith master Harding, it is false, it is vntrue, Chrysostome saith not, we are all of like worthinesse to receiue the mysteries. And what saith he else? How doeth M. Harding otherwise interprete him? Forsoth saith he, these woords, similiter omnes, vt illa percipiamus, digni habemur, must be thus Englished: We are accompted worthy of the selfe same things in like sort, not we are all of one worthinesse to receiue them. Who hath hearde p. 213one in so graue a matter, speake so childishly, the very woords of Chrysostome, vt percipiamus, he wil not hauehave Englished as they lie. And bicause M. Iuel doth so English them, (suche is his impudencie) he notes it for an vntruthe. But suche to whome God hath giuen the spirite of knowledge, and truth, they will confesse how he doeth wrangle: and if he hauehave any grace himselfe, as oft as he remembreth these vntruthes, he wisheth they were againe vnderunder his file.

The B. of Saris.

Missa in the time of Tertullian, and Cyprian, was especially applied vntounto the Communion.

Harding.

The .223. vntruthe. It is not so, as you meane.

Dering.

M. Hard. harpeth much on M. Iuels meaning. But vntruths must not be built vponupon gesses. Read the .169. vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

Cataechumeni were present at the Communion, till the Gospell was done.

Harding.

The .224. It was not the Communion, they were present at.

Dering.

I graunt it, wrangle on: M. Iuel confesseth when the Gospel was done, they were bid depart, what a single vntruthe is this? What troweth M. Harding we doe not know, that that part of seruice, which they heard, was called Missa cathechumenorum? Or doeth he thinke that the gospel was not red in that seruice? This vntruthe ariseth, bicause he wil not vnderstand, not bicause he doeth not. M. Iuel calleth that the Communion, p. 214which was the whole seruice appointed for the celebration of the Lordes supper. At the beginning whereof, the Nouices in the faithe of Christ, might be present, till the deacon cried, Exeunto catechumeni, which was after the gospell was red.

The B. of Saris.

We pray not aide of sicke folkes for the proofe of our holy Communion, as M. Harding is driuen to doe for his Masse.

Harding.

The .225. vntruthe. I proue not the Masse by them.

Dering.

This vntruthe is before sixe times, Read the .215. vntruthe. ¶Thus are we come to an ende of this weary Reioinder, wherein we sée to what issue M. Hardings great vaunts are come: his tragicall exclamations in how small matters there be ended: and his multitude of vntruthes, how without truth they be gathered. He tolde vsus that this Replie was altogither corrupt and false, yet are there a great many leaues in this first article, of which he hath not confuted one word: what he would hauehave done in case it had bene blameable, this Reioinder dothe sufficiently witnesse. He cried out of corruptions, alterations, manglings, and I wote not what of the olde fathers, but quid dignum tulit hic tanto promissor hiatu, what hath he brought forthe, worthy of so wide gaping? These vntruthes that were so many in number, are now proued none. The controlling of so many aucthorities, is found nothing but wrangling. The often blaming of diuers interpretations is tried either childishe or wilful ignoraunce. And some of his owne Doctors, on whome with much boasting, he had grounded his priuate Masse, in the ende he hathe turned to their owne defence. With so ill successe he hath impugned truthe: And with so slender proofe, he hath defended falshood. Of these p. 215225. vntruthes which he hath brought, some he saithe may be coloured, some be shamelesse lies. And in déede his testimonie well applied, is true. For most of them, without shame, are impudently gathered. Some as he hathe vsed them, may bring suspition of ouersight. But what they are, and howe voide of deserued blame, it shall appeare if thou reade this Confutation, in the which for thy contentation, good Christian Reader, I must assure thée, that I hauehave not alleaged one aucthoritie, wherein I either abridge the authors wordes, or enterlace any other of mine owne, either else misconstrue his meaning. Only sometime, bicause the wryting is tedious, I alleage the sense, and referre thée vntounto the place, where thou maist examine the wordes. If any one of all the lande of Louanists be able to reproue me, I wil not let openly to preache it that I hauehave offended. God giuegive them and vsus bothe grace to consider, that it is now no time to dally. The matter is not suche, that it may abide any wrangling. The cause is Gods, and he néedeth not to be defended with lies. If in his cause we goe about deceite, by vttering falshoode, or by concealing truthe: by making moe distinctions, or by framing Latine as we liste, God is not mocked.

How so euer we will paint our doings, or what clokes of shame so euer we will vse, it is true that the Poete saythe: Ille dolum ridens, quo vincula nectitis inquit? He laughing at oure deceitfulnesse, shall aske to what purpose we hauehave tied suche deuises? He is truth, and he will be defended by truthe, and he hateth all those, that doe speake lies. Therefore good Christian Reader persuade thy selfe, that as we hauehave our accomptes to make vntounto him, that iudgeth truely, so wittingly, and willingly, we will speake nothing that shall burden oure owne Consciences before his iudgement seate. True it is we be menne: and as menne we may be deceiued. The Prophet hath pronounced the vniuersall sentence, and we be all borne vnderunder the lawe of it, that eueryevery manne is a lier, p. 216therfore, to chalēge vntounto my doing any such absolute veritie, as though no piece of it might be blamed, it wer great arrogā cie, and extreme folly: this is sufficient to the indifferent mā, and a full contentation vntounto mine owne conscience, that the Lord is witnesse, I know not of any one vntruth, I hauehave vttred. And for this great number wherewith M. Iuel is charged, better it had bene for M. Harding to hauehave made them fewer, & more it might hauehave hindred M. Iuels cause. To deny, that any wher he might be deceiued, were to exempt him out of the condition of man. But these .225. vntruthes in one article, while they must be multiplied, M. Harding telleth one many times, maketh straunge interpretations, diuiseth new distinctions, in suche sort, that eueryevery man may espie his folly. God for his mercyes sake lighten once his heart, y^t yet again he may sée, whether he goeth, and leade them the way back… againe vntounto rightuousnesse, before whome he hath runne so long towarde the kingdome of iniquitie, that in the day of anger, when eueryevery one shall giuegive accompt of his doings, we may be all founde together in the way of obedience, and by grace receiue that eternal kingdome, which is not due vntounto our workes. Which kingdome God graunt vsus, through the death and passion of his sonne, our sauioure Iesus Christ, to whome with the father, & the holy ghost, be al honor and glory, world without ende. Amen.

Ierem. 8.9.

The wise men as ashamed, they are afraide and taken: Loe, they hauehave reiected the word of the Lord, and what wisdome is in them?

FINIS.

End of the text · Edward Dering, A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths (1568)