A Survey of Dialogical Discourses, Title page – To the reader
A SVRVEY OF CERTAINE DIALOGICAL DISCOVRSES: VVRITTEN BY IOHN DEACON, AND IOHN WALKER, concerning the doctrine of Poſſeſſion and Diſpoſſeſſion of Diuels.
VVHEREIN IS MANIFESTED THE PALPABLE IGNORANCE AND DANGEROVS errors of the Diſcourſers, and what according to proportion of God his truth, every chriſtian is to hold in theſe poyntes.
Publiſhed by Iohn Darrell miniſter of the goſpell.
Titus 1.10.11. There are many diſobedient and vaine talkers, and deceiuers of mindes, teaching thinges, which they ought not, for filthy lucres ſake, whoſe mouthes muſt be ſtopped.
IMPRINTED 1602.
TO THE READER, VVITH ANSVVERE to the Diſcourſers two epiſtles.
It greiues me (chriſtian reader) I aſſure thee, still perforce to be thus troubleſome not onelyonly to my ſelfe, but alſo to thee. It muſt needes be enough, and more then enough for thee, to hauehave pervſed ſo many ſimple treatiſes already, all harpinge on one string. And as for my ſelfe, how can I after ſo great vexation by the B. of London, ſo long impriſonment, ſuch publicke producemēt into open courts, & laſtly my paynes to cleare the truth frō M. Harſnets ſlaunders, but like a tired & weather beaten bird, wiſh ſōe quyer corner to reſt my ſelfe in, & to dry my feathers in the warme ſūne? But it is not my lot, I thīke, to breath me, no not a litle: For behold two new chā pions, that hauehave been bucklinge on their harneſſe theſe two or three yeares, with a proud ſwelling volume like a Spaniſh Armada, challenge me afreſh to a new encounter. Wherin yet this comforts me, that this new on ſet … an open declaration to the world, that in theſe mens Iudgments at the leaſt, the Biſhop with his home forces hath bene to weake. Neither this onelyonly, but even the B. himſelfe by entertaininge this freſh ayde, doth as it were plainly confeſſe, his victory to be as yet vnperfect. Otherwiſe it were idle eyther for them to offer, or him to imbrace a needles ſupply, if they perceaved not their former platforms by that poore battery, which my cōtēned writīgs hauehave made, to be tottering & falling. Bleſſed be God which though he ſuffer his truth to be ſhrewdly preſſed, yet not to be altogether oppreſſed, to be ſhrewdly thruſt at, yet not vtterly caſt downe: to be laden indeed with heavie burdens, yet to grow vnderunder them like a prevailyng palme. Great i… the power I ſee of a iuſt cauſe, how ſimple ſo ever her taile be. But what? ſhall the matter now be put out of all doubt? Muſt it needes in theſe Dialogues be convinced by Logike, and perſwaded by Rhetorike, that all this brute of Poſſeſſion and Diſpoſſeſſion is but a mere deceit? O fooliſh and vnadviſed men, which thinke to overthrow that by fond Sophiſticall words, which by ſad wordes and deedes hath not hetherto beene vanquiſhed. No doubt men of iudgment will heerein deeme the Biſhop to hauehave failed in a great poynt of circumſpection, in committing the brunt & execution of a battayle to theſe the weakeſt and cowardlieſt companies he hath. For if himſelfe could not be ſatiſfied to hauehave wounded the cauſe to his power, with the ſword of his authority, but that he muſt needes race the memory of it with conſuminge fyre, he ſhould not for performance thereof have ſent vsus this Ignis fatuus, as every one may eaſily diſcerne this to be.
I pray thee Chriſtian Reader, hauehave patience with me. I will spare thy paynes, and myne owne, as much as I can. My purpoſe is not to man out an other Galeaſſe like this Diſcourſers gallant, but to ſet vponupon it with my poore fiſher boate, & yet I hope by God his aſſiſtāce to make her lay her top ſayle in the broth. Neither thinke thou, I endevour hereby a defence more for my ſelfe, then for thee. I could hauehave contemned their frivelous reproches, had it not bene thou wert greatly endangered by the manifold groſe errors wherewith they would poyſon thee. And therfore intending thy good, more then myne owne credit, I will take a breife view of their Dialogicall Diſcourſes, before I come to them which properly concerne me.
Theſe Diſcourſes be fronted with a double epiſtle, one to the Right H. the L. Keeper, and cheife Iudges of the land, to which we will anſwer anone: the other to the Reader: wherin omitting their earneſt care to find out the truth in this doctrine, proceeding even to diſſention betwene thee two, otherwiſe ſworne brethren in matters of fact, firſt we hauehave a large rehearſall of ſundry reaſons for the edition of this treatiſe, both wherfore it hath beene hitherto ſuppreſſed, and alſo for what cauſes now at laſt it is publiſhed. For ſuppreſing the regard of your owne imperfectiōs were not to be miſliked, if you had not repented of this humilitie ſo ſoone. But I can hardly beleeue you conceaued ſo meanely of your owne facultie, as to feare the cenſure of any for ſcholaſticall forme, your whole diſcourſe is ſo Analyticall, & your Phiſiologus & Othodoxus ſuch ripe & pregnāt concluders, beſides your continuall vpbrayding me with my Hotchpotch and vsus all which hauehave dealt in this cauſe with our intricate riddles. Neither can I thinke you diſtruſt your eloquence as you pretend, wherein you braue it ſo every where. Whether it be Ciceronian verniſh or no, I cannot tell, my ſkill is not great. In my poore iudgment, to giuegive you your right, the ſentences are well stuffed with good ratling wordes, able to ſtill the babes crying, & repleniſht eftſoones with many Timely epithites, ſweetly buzzing in every corner like a ſwarme of flies. I graunt you that therebe many buyſy controlers of other mens labours. But why ſhould you feare a quippe for a poynt of learnyng, which hauehave inured your faces not to bluſh at greater matters? No doubt your compaſſion and care of me was great: leaſt by publiſhing this worke, you ſhoud increaſe my afliction, ſuch is the charitable regard you carry towards me in this you hauehave publiſhed, in every page imbracinge me no leſſe tenderly then the Ape her young ones. Laſtly you hoped, Authoritie might hauehave cauſed ſilence: for which purpoſe you remember the obeydience of the prophet to Amaziah his commaund, after he had done his meſſage though not ſo fully as he would, yet ſufficiētly: ſuch is your great ſkile, or at leaſt your fidelitie in reaſoninge, that by your rule, the hungry man muſt patiently faſt, becauſe he doth ſo which hath his belly full. Withall you would faine charge our ſtirringe in this cauſe, with want of reſpect to her Maieſties Princely prerogatiue, but in anſwere to your Queres this imputation ſhall appeare to be no leſſe abſurde, then malitious, and your ſelues rather pernitious Sycophants, then wee in the ſmalleſt allegyance vndutifull. And thus hauehave wee theſe worthy reaſons for ſuppreſſing as forcible to this end, as if one ſhould ſuppreſſe water with a …iue.
Now what great motiues thruſted forward the publiſhing? forſooth, for that ſome Ma… contents vndermined the authoritie of the high commiſ…ion: when as only the bad dealing of ſome in the commiſſion was iuſtly reproued, the Commiſſion it ſelfe not once eyther touched, or ment. But heere your eyes daſeled, and could not diſcerne the wood for the trees: the Perſon, and the office with you muſt be all one, you knowe no difference betweene M…ſes chayre, and a phariſaicall life. But Buſie ſay you muſt needes hauehave a band: Well M. Deacon, and M. VValker, make much of this band… y…u that might hauehave re…ted q…ietly in forgetfulnes, if you take not good heede, may hau… mo…e vſe of …t ere long your ſelues, then you would. Theſe are great motiues, y…a this caſe is ſo waighty, that we muſt hauehave a iuſt half… ſcore reaſ…ns more to ſatiſfie the world …or ſend…ng this treatiſe abroad. Should we runne ouer theſe ſeue…ally? It were but miſpendinge the time, to hunt the wyld gooſe cha…e with you. Therefore to gloane here and there one. Your ſecond and third allegations, to croſſe the opinion of a Neceſſarie perpetuitie of Miracles, is to be frighted with your owne ſhaddowes, and as be…em…th men of you… quality to f…are, where no feare is, who v…geth Perpetuitie of Miracles? HaueHave I any where affirmed it? Nay, hauehave not I earneſtly opp…ſed my ſelfe aga…nſt it? Eyther prooue me vntrue if you can, or confeſſe your ſelues t… be past all ſhame, who will needes father that vponupon me. I neuer affirmed, but the contrary, which your ſelues alſo teſtify co…tradictiō 15. Y…ur …ourth reaſō hath ſome more ſubſtāce in it, then all the reſt. You feared my credit would be too great. To free you from this feare: I hauehave learned by God his goodnes not to glory in this, or the like things, and to my poore abillitie I hauehave alwayes enform…d my auditours accordingly…. And ſurely you, if there be any glory in ſuch like actions, and your ſelues ſoūd members of that body you make ſhew of, would rather hauehave reioyced in the fellowſhip of it, then hauehave greiued through envy, & diſgraced the ſame by all the meanes you can, Faſtly yov doubted leaſt the conſcience of ſome might be trouble… with ſcruple, if iuſtifying fayth be the inſtrument of ſuch workes, ſith all endewed with that faith bring not the lyke to paſſe. But I pray your great learning tell me, by what faith obtaine w…e daylie bread? Was Lazarus to doubt of his faith b cauſe he was not ſat ſfied with the trummes of the Rich mans tabl…? Hath the Lord bou d himſelfe to beſtowe all corporall bleſſings vponupon ea…h of the faythfull, and in the ſame meaſure alſo? Or are you only ignorant in this A B C, which eueryevery common Chriſtian knowes? I will not dispvte this matter further with you for ſhame. Wheras you ſay eightly, we hauehave beene cōvinced for groſſe malefactors, I ſholde marvaile at your impvdency, but that I knowe with what mett…l your forheads beſteeled. If we were cōvicted for ſuch as you ſay, what was the ſentence of our condemnation? what was the puniſhment? what be came of the execvtion? As for ovr deprivation frō the myniſtery, was this an inflict…d payne for teaching to counterfeite, wherewith M. More was neuer charged, and yet depryued as wel as I? or rather the Bb. only pleaſure, who leaſt they ſholde ſeeme to make all this ſtyr for nothing, & not finding ſuch cauſe as they deſyred, choſe rather by layinge this vppon vsus to maintaine the repvtation of their owne wiſdome, then to puniſh vsus for the defers of ſuch a crīe. If they had found our fact worthy thus to be he cenſured, I hope they wolde not be ſo partiall, as to ſuffer all the reſt of the practiſers, in the ſame ranke of guiltyneſſe with vsus, eyther not to be called to accompt at all, or being examyned to be diſmiſſed againe without any correction. I wolde deſire you (if any honeſt requeſt may prevaile with men of your ſtampe,) that if you mvſt n…edes be lying, you would lye with more probability leaſt all the world cry ſhame of you. Tenthly your Scorpions ſting is ever wagging, in obiecting diſobedience to the Maieſtrate, and printinge without pryuilege: you ſhall receave anſwer in your Queres where you vrge this matter more importunatly. And thus mvch for the wynde that moved the Aſpen tree, of whoſe leaves it ſeemes, for all your reaſons yet alleadged, your tongues are made.
The reſt of the Epiſtle is ſpent in preventinge lauiſh tongues, againſt whom you fence both your Perſons, and your Cauſe. For your Perſons, and firſt for your learning, It is ioy that men of your ſkyll can be ſo humble. Howſoever you in modeſty deeme your ſelues Minimi Apoſtolorum, the leaſt of ten thouſand: yet for my part when I conſider the multitude of good Authors prefixed before your Dialogues, and ſcattered ſentences in them, & how little you are behoulding to any of them in the cheefeſt points you handle, having through the quicknes of your owne conceit found out that, which they neuer once dreamed of.
When I ſay, I conſider theſe things, I am forced to yeild this praiſe vntounto you: that you are profound Rh…pſodiſtes, & men expert in Tablatine, which by the helpe of an Index are able in ſome few yeares to marſhall a troope of ſentences and Authors to ſome terrible ſhew. Beſides who can but cōmend, as your multiplicity of reading, ſo your faithfulnes in alleging, which would not vſe the phraſe of Dare manus, but cite your Author M. Tullius Cicero for it? which phraſe only, hath put Cicero in the liſt of Authors to make vp the nomber: and the like diligence hath afforded vsus the names of diuers others. Nay me thinkes I ſee in you the ſkil of prudent Captaynes, which to terrify their enemies, can make an handfull of men ſhew like a great multitude, ſome one ſeeming two, yea ſometimes three. This ſtratageme hath placed Ariſtotle in A, & Philoſophus for the ſelfe ſame author in the letter P. So Iohannes Darrell beeing a great learned mā, firſt makes one in the ranke of I, & the Narration of Darrell an other in the troopes of N. But Gregorius in G keepes a terrible ſtyrr: for firſt he is part downe ſimply Gregorius, then againe Gregorius Magnus, and the third time Gregorius 1. Rom. and yet all theſe are but one. You muste needes ouercome, which are ſo full of pollicie, not inferiour to Cyrus, that by certain Idols made for the nonce, and men of ſtraw, tooke Creſus at Sardis. Feare not therfore ye learned Diſcourſers, howſoever the ignorāt may lightly paſſe over your Table, painted margēt, & many autho…ityes without due regard, yet the Iudiciall Reader (able to diſtinguiſh betweene a counterfeyt, & a grounded knowledg,) will giuegive you ſuch commendation as you deſerue.
For the carriage of your liues precedent & preſent, we hauehave a whole page perſumed with many ſlonenly tearmes. And herein you lay about you mightely, bragging your ſelues like butchers mastiues with their collers of iron pykes, & daring any to ſet vponupon you. If your hornes peepe out of the buſhes whether you are fled for covert, you may thanke your ſelues which hauehave eaten away the leaues. Yet I will paſſe by you, as though I ſawe you not: not for any feare of your vrchins ſkyn, wherewith you thinke you are ſufficiently armed, but for that I thinke it better to paſſe by you in ſilence, then to vtter that which you deſerue to heare, and to lay you open in your colours. I will only demaunde this of you, how you durſt dedicate your treatiſe to the Right Honorable Lord Keeper, to the Lorde Cheife Iuſtice of England, and other the cheif Iudges of the land, by this meanes to occaſion them to enquyre of your perſon? I ſay no more, let this ſuffice for anſwer of that Epistle of yours to their Honours, as I promiſed you. Yet I muſt needes tell you, that wher you ſay, we ſport our ſelues in brāding our brethren, with the odious name of Formaliſts, you ſay vntruly. We accoūt them Formaliſts, which forme and fāſhion themſelues like vntounto this world: & not they which are crucified vntounto the world, and the world vntounto them, albeit in ſome things they diſſent from vsus in opinion. And inſtead of brandinge ſuch with this or any other odious name: if they be of the auncient, we call and reverence them as fathers: if others, we tearme and louelove them as brethren. From theſe and the cauſe they speake of, it beinge holy and good, if this couple be with D…mas quite fallen, to the embracinge of this pre…ent w…rld, & become Apoſtates, reuolters and back-ſlyders, whereof they ſay they looke eueryevery hower to heare, let thē know that this Apoſtacy of theirs, is not the least of their ſinnes, nor eaſyest repented of. But to let all this paſſ…, con…erninge your cauſe, if you will as you ſay, be content that it be tryed by the fire of God his truth, you ſhall d…e well. For y…ur forme by Dialogue and other order in followinge the cauſe it is as your pleaſure, I know none ready to excepte againſt it. If you bring truth, it ſhall be acceptable in what forme ſo ever.
For your Queres, whether her Maieſty hath authority to eſtabliſh in her dominions an order for printing with priuiledge, belike you were at lea…ure when you mo…ued this Quere to spend words in a need leſſe queſtion, neuer denied, or d…ubted of. All Princes hauehave authoritie in their ſeuerall kingdomes to conſtitute ſome conv…nient order in this behalfe, and this care is both holy and good. How can the whole lump poſſiblie not be ſowred, if everie man might thru…t in his leav…n at his pleſure? But then you demaund furthe…, whether eueryevery one be not ſtri…tlie bound to obſerue this order? I anſwer every one is ſtrictlie bound to obſerue the meaning of the law, wh ch is, to ſuppreſſe falſhood & wickednes: But when ſuch officer… ſhall come in place to be ſett ouer this …harge (as no Prince to the world can alwaies avoyd it) which inſteade of ſuppreſſing error & ſinne, will according to their ow…e deceaued hum…rs ſupp…eſſe truth and v…rtue: heere the meaning of the law is to be looked in to, & practiſed, and the letter is not preciſely to be stood vp…n, which is abuſed by vnworthie perſons to a wrong purpoſe. Is not the end of all lawes the good of the common wealth? Should one, …r ſome few mens abuſed authoritie spoile all the ſubiects, yea & the Prince herſelfe of the cleare vnderſtanding of any neceſſarie profit? If nothing may come to the governors eares, but what it priuiledged by the high Preists, the ſoldiers may ſay Chriſt was ſtol…n away by his diſciples, or what they will elſe. Therefore when m…n fa…le in care to examine before printing, it is requiſite ſuch bookes ſh…uld be examined after printing, that the meaninge of th… law may be obſerved, and the people with …rrour not ſeduced. You ſee in the c…urts there is a writ of errour, and the honorable Iudges ſuffer willinglie a ſentence wrung from them by any deceipt, vponupon better proceeding to be reverſed. Yea there is an appeale to the high courte of Chauncery, though law hath eſtabliſhed a determination in t…e ſeverall Courts. Neither doth her Maieſty her ſelf (of her gratious go…dn…ſſ…) diſdain to receaue the ſupplications of her poore ſubiects, tha… think the… ſelues iniured elſwhere. And yet ſtrict courſe of law doth not allowe ſuch proceedings, but rather inhibiteth it: commaunding vsus to stand to the definitiue ſentence of the Iudges. Now what elſe is a truth publiſhed in print without priu…ledge, but a ſupplication to the Prince and people for re…ſſe of herThat is truths iniu ies? nay rather for redreſſe of their ow…e iniuryes, which are endaungered by allowance of trumpery to abandon truth, & ſo …o caſt themſelues into thoſe manifould miſcheifs which proceede from errour. Good men and wiſe and most obedient to their gouernours, hauehave in all ages, and do at this day in all places of Christendom, practiſe acc…rding to this rule, or elſe God his truth w…uld be in pittifull caſe. Are not you then egregious Sycophants which doe vehemently con…emn all the godly vponupon ſo fooliſh a c…nceyt? Are not ſuch as you a flattering poyſon to Princes, which would tranſforme them from gratious gouern…urs, into …atefull Tyrants? It were not amiſſe that ſuch ſkilfull workm…n, which cā m…ke a Bull for Phalaris, ſhould ta…t of their cunning firſt themſelue. What Tirant when he hath done one iniu y, will not ſuffer him ſo much a to greiue for his wrong? would you hauehave truth wounded, & not allow her to complayne? Indeed Tereus when he had deflowred …hylome…a, cut out her tongue: and this earnestnes of theſe Diſcourſers in this b… half giuegive ſhrewd ſuſpition, there is ſomething in the winde, wher fore it ſhould be beho…vefull for them, that not only mens hands might be kept from printing, but alſo the mouthes of all that know them might be ſurely lo…ked vp, & that them ſelues might keepe the keyes.
The remainder of your Epiſtle ſhewes the order of the Diſcourſe. Your Alphabeticall table, with the Seuerall names of the Seuerall Aut…ors, and their Seuerall authorities we hauehave touched b fore. Yet further take this with you, that as Iehu cauſed the heads of the 70. ſo…nes of Ahab to be layd on two heapes in the gates of Iezrehel, ſo theſe names you produce be no bands of frends, ready to ſtand in your def…nce: but ā h ape to ſhew how many you hauehave expreſly ſlaine in this cauſe, infinite others being alſo wounded in them. Your arguments wil ſaue me a labour: for I ſhall neede no other collection of your abſurdities, iuſt ſ… many in gr…ſſe, (your firſt dialogue excepted) as your arguments be. Your Analiſis is hanſomly checkered one part within an other, like a motley cloke h g. For firſt you ſay, the diuel his power, is either a power of poſſeſſion or obſeſſion: when poſſeſſion & Obſeſſion in ſuch mens writings as treat theis poynts a…e vſed for all one. Then Poſſeſſion in your diſcourſes you make only to be outward, and yet Mentall Poſſeſſion muſt grow from it, as figgs vponupon thornes. If you ſay you m…an… poſſeſſiō vulgarly, neither is that true, for vulgarly it is applied to that vexation which appeareth in the torture of the body: But your Mentall affliction is ſev…rally & ſolely by it ſelfe a Poſſeſſion. The next diuiſ…on is either Reall, or Actuall. What? hauehave we now a Reall poſſeſſion, wherein is no action? This indeede is a gentle poſſeſſion. Againe, Corporall poſſeſſiō is either by aſſuming true bodies, or tranſforming: whereby good angels ſhalb… made poſſeſſ…rs & tormenters of men, as ſhall be ſhewed more in due place. You hauehave preſented vsus heere therfore with an analyticall bable, inſtead of a table: laboring to ſtop our mouthes with one gallimawfry ſerued vp in diuers diſhes, as if any two words vnderunder a pare of gemmall lines were ſufficē for ſuch a purpoſe. For your Speakers in the Dialogues Philologus tattles prittily & anſwers his name well, but Phyſiologus might better be tearmed Phiſialogus, for he is but a Dun…e in Phil…ſ… phy, & your Orthodoxus is as rightly ſo called, as Iohn Deacon was ſometimes A. VValker. Your Tables in the end might well hauehave beene spared. I thinke he which hath once read your treatiſe, wil not be greatly deſirous to finde out a…y point to reade it againe. And thus at last we hauehave an end of the Epiſtle, to be cōmended cheifly in t…is, that not …nlie by the length it with-houldeth ſometime the Reader from the treatiſe it ſelfe, but alſo by the fondnes might iuſtly bring him in diſtast with the reſt, and ſo cauſe him to ſpare his paynes fr m proceeding any futth…r, which perha…p… he ſhall perceaue to be no ſmall benefit.
I. D.