Reply to John Deacon, Addendum – To the reader
Here foloweth my anſwere to the Contradictions they charge mee with.
contradicti… 13.The Diſcourſers charging me with a ſhamfull companie of Contradictions, no leſſe then fiftie, I firſt framed an anſwere to them, with full purpoſe to publiſh it, & therein hauehave made it plaine there is not a contradiction. But this my Treatiſe prouing much larger then I intended, & the anſwere to them being of litle or no vſe, ſaue only to cleare my ſelfe of this ſlaunder, and to diſcouer their filthineſſe, which needeth not, I thought good rather to ſuppreſſe, then publiſh it: yet ſo as I will giuegive thee, good Reader, a taſte thereof, and of their vpright dealing herein, aſſuring, thee of my credit, that euen ſuch be the reſt of their contradictions.
Anſwere.Darell, ſay they, in his Doctrine pag. 54. ſaith, that prayer and faſting being vſed aright, will certainly proſper either to the remouing or ſanctifying of the iudgment. But pag. 56. he ſaith, their is no aſſurance to preuaile.
contrad. 23▪I anſwere. There is no aſſurance to preuaile, that is, we can not be ſure the partie ſhall be deliuered, the meanes being vſed, for ſo are my wordes. Had then I ſayd pag. 54. faſting will certainlie proſper to the remouing of the iudgement, and no more, I had contradicted that I ſay, pag, 59 but adding or ſanctifying, a child may ſee here is no contradiction. Such a contradiction is this: Certenly the Diſcourſers wil ether be aſhamed of their contradictions, or their ſinne is the greater: Aſſuredly they will not be aſhamed of their contradictions. And this: The ſun is either vnderunder a cloud, or ſet. It is not vnderunder a cloud.
In his Detection 163. Darrell ſaith, fire hath powe…r to burne, & in the ſame pag. hath no power to burne.
Anſ▪All that we reade Detection 163. is that Somers hand being in the fire was not burnt. Would euer any man, theſe two excepted, hence collect a contradiction? How many thouſands in this land hauehave ſaid the ſame, and among them not a few that be learned, & yet I dare ſay neither learned, nor vnlearned euer feared they ſpake contraries. Shadrach, Meſhech, & Abednego being in the fire were not burned, and yet they that caſt them into the fire were burnt. I truſt you wil not ſay here is a contradiction. But confeſſe both theſe to be true. Fire naturally burneth, but reſtrayned by God the ouer-ruler o nature, it doth not burne. Secondly, you ſhould firſt hauehave ſhewed where I ſay, Fire hath power to burne, before you told vsus that I ſpeake contraries.
…ntrad. 24.In his Dotrine pag. 2. he ſaith, that it ſuteth altogether with Satans …ature to be filthie or wicked in ſpeech. But Detection 175. he ſaith, that it ſutethe as well with his nature to vſe good and holy speeches.
My wordes Detection 175. be, Holy wordes hauehave beene vttered by ſatan. Tel me is this a falſe propoſition? Or yet this: vncleane and Anſ.blasphemous ſpeeches ſute excellently with the nature of the vncleane spirit. If both theſe be true, which none will deny, with what truth doe you ſay that I ſpeake contraries, whereof the one muſt needs be falſe? Theſe men ſure had forgot when they doted of this contradiction, that the diuel is as well by nature ſubtil, (and in his ſubtiltie ready to transforme him ſelfe into Angel of light) as vncleane and wicked. Of this ſtampe they hauehave 18 contradictions more.
In his Doctrine 47. He ſaith the diſciples by vertue of their ſo large …ontrad: 11,a commiſſion could caſt out a diuel of any kinde. But pag. 50. the Lunatike child was poſſeſt with one of the worſt kinde of ſpirits, and that thence it came the diſciples could not caſt him out.
To make this contradiction they hauehave detracted part of my words Anſ,in either propoſition. In the former theſe, if their faith failed not: which words, or words to the ſame effect in the aforeſaid pag. 47. & the two pages precedent I vſe no leſſe then twelue times. In the latter propoſition where I ſay, thence partly it came, they detract this word partly: wherby I intimate the Diſciples faith did at that time faile them, when they could not caſt the diuel out of the lunatike child, ſo that their incredulitie was one let, which oft els where I expreſſe. And this you well knewe, as appeareth by your next contradiction, the twelft I meane. What meant you then thus to ſeparate and rent aſunder thoſe words which of purpoſe I had coupled together? And by detracting that which in either of the propoſitions i… ſo materiall, and in the one I inculcate ſo often, to pretend a contradiction where you knew none was? Who hath bewitched you to vſe ſuch curled deuiſes, for the compaſſing of your contradictions? A curſed pretence muſt this needes be, ſeeing it can not be done in ignorance: For you cannot be ignorant hereof, that the wordes detracted by you I vſed, ſpcially thoſe ſo oft iterated, and that in thoſe pages from whence yee hauehave the ſa de contradictorie propoſition: conſidering alſo that to make another contradiction you aleag the very ſame words you omit here, & that frō the ſame page, as witneſſeth the contradiction here following. Neither can you be ignorant of this, that theſe wordes being vſed and added by me, I am not contrary to my ſelfe, yea hence it is that you did omit them. It muſt needes therfore be that you knowing here was no contradiction, hauehave againſt that knowledge of yours (by this deuiſe of detracting theſe words) made yet a faire ſhew to the world of a contradiction. Here is no contrarietie except theſe be propoſitions contradictory: The Diſciples could caſt out a diuell of any kind, if their faith fayled not: The Diſciples their faith failing could not caſt the diuell out.
contrad, 31In his Doctrine 47. he ſaith the Apoſtles faith failed not: But pag. 48 he ſaith it failed at this time when Chriſt ſpake to them and in this very worke.
Anſ,Theſe wordes, the Apoſtles ſaith failed not, you could omit, when ſuch omiſſion ſerueth for your purpoſe, as appeares by the former contradiction. But now when they muſt ſtand you in ſome ſteade, they are not to ſeeke. He wanteth the vſe of one of his ſences, that ſmelleth not here your ſtinking breath. My wordes be theſe. They were able to caſt out al diuels, if their faith fayled not: which imply not that the Apoſtles faith neuer failed them, as you would hauehave it, for otherwiſe here is no contradiction, but rather the contrary, that their faith did at ſome times faile them. Again, though theſe words The Apoſtles faith failed not, with the former are mine, yet thus rent and ſeparated from their fellowes, I may trulye ſay they are not mine. In your Diſcourſes you ſay, if the skies fall we ſhall hauehave larks, By your wiſe rule you there affirme, that the skies do falle & in the ſāe booke pag. 24. where you hauehave theſe words: If Angels be vncreated then are they eternall: you affirme, that Angels be vncreated: yet pag. 28. you ſay Angels be created. Theſe propoſitions be contradictorie, and the former of them abſurd, and ſo here is a contradiction (forſooth) and an abſurditie, when indeed there is neither. Here is paltrie and childiſh ſtuffe. If I would walke but in this one crooked ſtep of yours, how eaſily could I make a booke of your contradictions, and another of your abſurdities. But ſuppoſe I had ſaid no more then you produce. vz. The Apoſtles faith ſailed not frō thence ye could not inferre a contradiction, except I had ſpoken of the ſame time mētioned in the latter contradictorie propoſition. Their, faith might not falle them at one time, and yet ſaile them at another time.
contrad, 15,In Doctrine 52 Abrahams prayer is made a ſole meanes of conception and procreation of chidren: But pag. 60 another meanes is found appoīted of God for that purpoſe, or els it would proue a miracle.
Anſ,As before by detracting ſo here by adding you abuſe both mee, and the Reader: The words I vſe be theſe Who will deny but that as the ſinne of Abimilech (in taking Sarah, Abrahams wife vntounto him) had ſhut vp eueryevery wombe of the houſe of Abimelech, ſo the pray…r of Abraham was the meane whereby they were opened. & that iudgement taken away? Do I here make Abrahams prayer a ſole meanes of procreation? That I meane & affirme is, that by Abrahams prayer as a meanes Abimelech his wyfe & women ſeruants, were made able to conceiue, which before they could not, not excluding, but including the knowlege and ſeede of man: which no man in his right minde would hence gather, this couple excepted.
…urad, 46,In his Doctrine pag. 2. he ſaith, it is abſurd to affirme that the diuel▪ being without a man) can diſpoſe of the whole or any parte of mans bodie: but Detection, page 11. he ſaith that thediuel (in all probability) did vſe Sommers his tongue, notwithſtanding he was eſſentiallie and ſenſiblic playing boe peepe vnderunder the couerleed.
Anſ,The former propoſition is not mine, I ſay eueryevery part, you ſave, any part. And ſo by altering a word you hauehave made a contradiction where none is: except there be no other part of Sommers his body, beſides his tongue.
And thus to thee Reader, but for breuitie, I would make it euident, that of the diſcourſers fiftie contradictions, being examined one by one, there is not ſo much as one to be found. The greater is their ſiune and ſhame who charged me with ſo many.
And here we are to obſeruefirſt, that of theſe contradictions there are aboue 20. wherin there is no contradiction at all, taking them at the huckſters hand, euen as themſelues hauehave quoted them. And namely theſe: contradiction 4. 6. 7. 8. 13. 14. 17. 18. 19. 21. 23. 24. 26. 28. 31. 35. 38. 36. 37. 41, & 45
Secondly, to marke the ſeueral deuiſes or ſleights whereby they make ſemblance of contradictions when there are indeed none if you take the words as they be ſet downe in my treatiſes. I his ſemblance they make.
1 By forging that I neuer affirmed (but often the contrary) as in contradiction 1. 9. 17. 19. 20, 23, 25, 26, 27, 35, & 46.
2 By omitting or detracting ſome worde or words material, as in contradiction 3, 11, 12, 25, 27, 30, 31, 33, 36, 39, & 40
3 By adding, and thus hauehave they done in contradiction 15. 43. & 47.
4 By altering, as apeareth by contradiction 6, 17, 27, 29, 49
5 To this ſaid end alſo, when both their contradictory propoſitions are in the ſame page, and ſomtimes in the very ſame ſentence, they runne notwithſtanding for the one of them to a page far off, or happelie to another booke: Hereby (I meane by alleaging two diſtinct pages of mine, ſomwhat alſo aſunder) pretending, that what I ſay n one place, forgetting forſooth my ſelf, I gaynſay in another. As appeareth by contradiction 1. 3▪ 5. 22▪ 26. 36. 42. & 47.
Thus hauehave theſe men ſo accuſtomed and taught themſelues to falſife my writings in whole or in part: by forging, detracting, adding, & altering, as they hauehave alleaged very litle of mine truly: & no marce: becauſe truly alleaged they would not make for their purpoſe Yet notwithſtanding they hauehave by theſe curſed meanes compaſſed their contradictions, I doubt not but that they pleaſe themſelues greatly, and glory in them, ſpecially in the great number of them, and doe thinke therein they hauehave ſhewed not a litle wit. But I will tel you, a very foole that will giuegive libertie to himſelf to adde, detract and alter but here & there a letter, may eaſily make, a thouſand contradictions, where none are: much more he that wil do thus by wordes & ſomtimes by ſentences, as you hauehave done.
Anſ. Epiſt, to the Reader fol, 4VVhether now you hauehave pretermited any thing material, and by ſuch omitting, and taking what parte of my writings might make moſt for your purpoſe, euen purpoſely maymed my writings, which you deny and I affirme, iudge thou indiſſirently betwene vsus good reader. And whether you will acknowledge and redreſſe the offred wrong, whereof I complaine, and which I truſt to be a wrong I hauehave made manifeſt by this my Replie, vntounto all men, & to your owne conſciences, as you pretend you will, nay, ſeeme to abhorre not to do it, if once the wrong ſhal be made to appeare, ſaying: God forbid that we ſhould not doe it very willinglie: in time both thou and I ſhall know. And thus much for anſwer to their ſuppoſed contradictions. For breuitie ſake I omit my reply to the Abſurdities wherewith you charge me, and your ſlaunders conteined in them.
Here not vnfitly may I charge you with the contradictions & Abſurdities I find in your writinges: and if it fall out ſo that your ſelues be found faultie in that, wherof vniuſtly you accuſe another, then thereby learne henceforward to plucke rather the beame out of your own eyes, then buſie your ſelues ſo much about leſſe then a mote in your brothers eye.
In their Anſwere page 55 and page 179 of their Diſcourſes, they ſay, that the manifeſtation of Chriſt his deitie, and declaration of his glorious & ſpell, were the maine ends of poſſ…ſsion: and a little after, that the poſſeſsion of diuels were especially for theſe two ends: therby in ſinuating that there were ſome other ends or end. Yet page 67 of the ſame booke they ſay, that theſe were the two only ends of this vonderfull iudgement.
2 In their Dial. diſ. page 58 they ſay, angels doe euermore worke after an inuiſible, inſenſible, and spirituall maner. And the next leafe, page 60 they ſay, that angels in all their ambaſſages they do other manifeſt themſelues by ſeeing and hearing, or aſſiſt vsus eſtſoon…s by ſome other ſenſible means. And they bring Auguſtine flatly affirming that the angels do outwardly helpe vsus by certaine viſible apparitions or ſights, which they propoſe and offer before our eyes.
3 In their Diſcourſes pa. 42 they ſay, the mind it ſelfe, and it only is that wherein motion conſiſteth: and the body is but the minds organon or inſtrument, hauing naturally in it ſelfe no motion at all, or no further motion at the moſt, then for thoſe only actions wherin the ſaid mind (whoſe organon it is) imployeth the ſame. But in pag. 74 of the ſame booke they affirme, that the body it ſelfe hath, and may accompliſh or effect corporall operations and motions by it ſelfe alone, without anie the direction, moderation, guidance, or … of the ſoule.
4 In their Diſcourſes pag. 116 they ſay, the diuell did ſo bewitch and charme the Serpent, as that (through his craftie ſuggeſtion) ſhee was very wel able to propound ſuch a diuination or ſoothſ…ing, as d…d preſently circumuent or deceiue Fuah. And in the ſame booke page 1 9 they ſay, that a reaſonable speech cannot poſsibly bee framed or vnderſtood of anie but of a mind hauing vnderſtanding and reaſon.
5 In their Anſwer pa 50 they ſay. Theſe eight d…moniakes might be poſſeſſed, though the diuell was not eſſentially inherent in anie one of their bodies: But page 43 of the ſame booke they ſay, The p…ſſeſsion of diuels whatſoeuer is ceaſed long ſince.
6 In their Diſcourſes 173 they ſay. The Apoſtles might authētically auouch for inſallible truth whatſoeuer they preached. But in their. Anſwere page 126 128 129 130 they ſay, that the apoſtles ſometime failed in doctrine. And a little after: all theſe were their err…urs in doctrine and iudgement. And againe. It was expedient for the apoſtles to erre in ſome things, that is, ſome points of doctrine. And this they vnderſtand after the holy Ghoſt fell vponupon them, as is plaine by the aforeſaid pages.
7 In their Anſwer pag. 7, they ſay, that wonders and miracles are flatly confounded: but in their Dialogicall diſcourſes 209, they ſay, the diuel may worke wonders, but can effect no miracles. And pag, 310, thus, A thing effected by eſſentiall means, howſoeuer it may be a wonder, yet no miracle in any respect.
8 In your Diſcourſes pag. 352. for your parts you aſſure me, that you are very farre from all ſuſpition of a precompacted confederacie betweene Sommers and me. Yet in page 42. of your Anſwere you ſay, why ſhould we wonder at all, that two …unning compan…ns (Meaning Sonnners and my ſelfe) conſed…rate together before ſhould conclude ſuch a courſe betweene themſelues, as the one (by the helpe of the other) ſhould progmſ…icate ſtrange and mered…ble euents.
9 In pag. 39. of their Diſcourſes, they tell vsus, There is not anie one ſound Diuine that d…th…n t vnderstand Poſſeſſion as they doe, and none as I fondly imagine and yet in the …piſtle to the Reader prefixed before that booke, that which they deliuer concerning poſſeſſion and d spoſſ ſſion of d…uels, they call, th…t priuate opinion: and in page 195 of their Anſwere, The Lord his lately revealed counſels.
Part of their abſurd and vnſound Poſitions
1 Godby good Angels may effect fantaſticall, vaine, and filthie effects Anſwers 15.
2 Good …ngels may effect vaine and filthy effects▪ ibid.
3 VVhereſoeuer the Scriptures ſpeake of Angels or diuels, they ſpeake only by metaphore▪ ibid.
4 The Diuel hath no deſire to be in any mans body. Anſ. 22
5 The Iewes in Chriſts time did (partly) know the parties which were poſſeſſed, from the often reuelation of the parties themſelues. anſw. 32
6 Godby his Spirit inſtructed the Cananitiſh woman (mentioned Matth. 15, 22) of her daughters malacie. anſw▪ 33
7 The manifeſtation of Chriſts deitie, and the confirmation of the Goſpell, the only ends of Poſſeſsion. anſw. 67
8 Chriſt hath put a finall end to the poſſeſsion of diuels by his death and reſurrection. anſw. 66
9 The ſupernaturall actions or effects of the Diuel in Demoniaks, cannot poſsibly be comprehended by humane ſenſes. Anſ. 69
10 The working of miracles was only in Chriſt and his Apoſtles dayes, anſw. 90
11 God hath appointed plowing and ſowing for a meanes of abundance or barrennes vponupon the ground, anſw 172
12 Good angels do euormore worke after an inviſible, inſenſible and ſpirituall manner, Dialogical diſcourſes 58. This is to bee refuted by all thoſe places where angels are ſaid to hauehave appeared and ſpoken in viſible formes vntounto men.
13 The body hath, and may accompliſh by her ſelfe alone, corporall actions and motions, without anie her ſoules direction, moderation, guidance, or conſent, Dial. diſc. 74
14 The dead carcaſſe of a man, or the body being ſeparate from the ſoule, may and doth alſo effect corporall actions and motions. ibid.
15 The Diuel did ſo bewitch and ſo charme the Serpent, as that (through his craftie ſuggeſtion) ſhee was very well able to propound ſuch a diuination or ſoothſaying, as did preſently circumuent and deceiue Euah. Dial. diſc. 16. Abſurd, that the Diuell ſhould not onelyonly thus make the Serpent it ſelfe to ſpeake, but alſo argue the matter like a reaſonable creature
16 The apoſtles erred in ſome points of doctrine, after the holy Ghoſt fell vponupon them: Yea, it was expedient for them ſo to erre anſw. 126, 128, 129, 130
17 It is verie erronious for able to imagin, that the eyes may poſſibly be deceiued, in diſcerning betweene ſpirits (that is, bodies aſſumed by ſpirits) and true naturall bodies. Dial. diſc. 157. You forget that Abraham and Lot were deceiued, as appeareth by Gen. 18. and 19.
FINIS
I am to craue thy patience good Reader, ſpecially the authours, for the late comming forth of this booke: for I confeſſe it hath layen in my hands almoſt this halfe yeare.
End of the text · John Darrell, Reply to John Deacon (1602)