The Sinful Shameful Lying and Ridiculous Discourse of Samuel Harshnet, Treatise · Book 1 · Chapter 9
OF CHAP. 9.
Of the ſignes whereby M. Darrell & others doe diſcerne (as they ſay) when ſathan is expelled.
M. Darrells ignorance maketh him (as it ſeemeth) in this point confident. He is peremptory,pag. 50. that becauſe it is ſaide in the ſcriptures: that the ſpirits of the lunatike, when he was caſt out of him did cry and rent him ſore, & that b… lay as one dead: that therefore theſe three are infallable ſignes appointed of God to knowe when one is diſpoſſeſſed, Nay rather then fayle hee will be content with one of them, as in his dealing with Thomas Darlinge heereafter will appeare.
VVhere-vponupon I houlde theſe three for ſignes whereby to knowe when one is diſpoſſeſſed, as ſignifying the egreſſe of the ſpirite. I hauehave before declared▪ it remayneth therefore only that I anſwer to thoſe obiections the Diſc. maketh againſt them. The firſt wherof is this: Some lewde knaue may eaſily counterfeyt theſe ſignes: ergo &c. I anſwer, that none can counterfeyt, that is, doe the like to any one of them, much leſſe can any counterfeyt them all. For the holy ghoſt ſpeaketh not of a naturall cry, ſent forth by mans voyce or power, the like wherevnto an other man may vtter and ſo counterfeyt: But of a ſupernaturall loud cry, ſent forth by a ſupernaturall power, I meane, the diuells: for it is ſaid,…ke 1. 26. the vncleane ſpirite cryed with a loud voyce and came out of him: in like ſorte it is ſaid, the vncleane ſpirit tare him: nowe one would thinke that both the hand and tongue of man were too ſhort to performe that is done by the diuell. It is beſides ſaid of the poſſeſſed childe mentioned Mark. 9.vers 26 that when the ſpirit was gone out of him, he was as one dead, in ſomuch that many ſaid he is dead. meaninge that howſoeuer he was not indeede deade, but had life remayning in him, yet he was in all things like to a deade body, without any appearance of life, ſtarke and ſtiff, the pulſes not beating, nor taking breath &c. like to a man in a ſwound. in whome although there be life, yet no ſuch thing appeareth to be. Euen ſo it was with the diſpoſſeſſed child, where-vponupon the people which thronged about him tooke him to be deade. Nowe this lewd knaue cannot eaſily nor yet poſſibly counterfeyt Howſoeuer then, were our 10. diſpoſſeſſed perſons counterfeites, as the Diſc. will hauehave them, there crying, renting, and fayning to lye as dead, an other as lewde might eaſily counterfeyt: yet to ſay that one may counterfeyt the crying, renting ſore, and lying as deade, mentiōed in the goſpell, and cauſed by the diuell, is both abſurd & impious. His ſecond obiection is ſet downe in theſe wordes. M. Darrell confeſſing, that in the Apoſtles times, ſome ſpirits were caſt out more eaſily then others, might in reaſon hauehave thought, that thoſe that went out ſo eaſily, did not ſo greuouſly torment the parties at their caſting out, as the reſt did.
True, not ſo greuouſly torment at theire going out, as the reſt did, therefore not greuouſly torment at all,…g. …1 and ſo of the other ſignes. This followeth not, as eueryevery childe may ſe. Two malefactors are whipped (ymagine) for one and the ſame falt, by two ſeuerall tormentors: the one being beaten by the more cruell man, hath 40. ſtripes: the other by him that is leſſe cruell hath but 20. By this reaſon now of the Diſ. this latter was not beaten at all, for he was not beaten ſo greuouſly as the other was.
His third obiection followeth: And ſomewhat it is that although there are diuers mentioned in the ſcriptures,…g. 51. to hauehave bene diſpoſſeſſed by our Sauiour Chriſt and by his Apoſtles: yet it is ſaid of none but of the lunatick Mark. 9. that when Sathan departed, the ſpirit either cryed, or rente him ſore, or that they lay as dead. To make therefore ſuch particularities in one, a generall rule to all, argueth greatly the weaknes of his iudgment.
The Diſc. is greatly deceaued, for of an other Mark. 1. (a man and not a childe, as the lunatike was Mark. 9.) it is ſaid, that when he was diſpoſſeſſed, the vncleane ſpirit tare him, and that he tare or rent him ſore appeareth by Luke 4. where the ſame ſtory is ſet down.mark… 1, …. vo… …. Secondly it is written, that he cryed with a laude voyce, and came out of him. And in the 8. of the Acts, that the vncleane ſpirits crying with al…de voyc…, came out of many that were poſſeſſed. And in that this is not ſaide heere of a particuler perſon, as Mark 1. & 9. but of many, it is therby playne, that it was an vſuall thing with the ſpirits, to ſend forth or cauſe loude cryes, when they went out of thoſe they poſſeſſed. Thus hath the Diſc. in ſaying that none but the lunatick Mark 9. either cryed, or was rent ſore, vttered vn-awares a manif…ſt vntruth, and therein ſhewed no greate learning or iudgment, who vpbraydeth others with ignoran…e, weaknes, and want of iudgment. VVe reade not indeeue in eueryevery place where mention is made of caſting out diulls, of theſe 3. effe…ts, that they cryed, were rent ſore, and lay as deade, but only in the 9. of Mark: nor in any place beſides, that they in that caſe were for a ſeaſon as dead, and had the Diſc. ſaid either of theſe, he had ſaid trulye: yet notwithſtanding it is very probable that thus it went with the diſpoſſeſſed generally: for in the 17. of Math. and 9. of Luke where the diſpoſſeſſion of the lunatick childe is ſet downe, there is no mention neither of crying * nor renting, Impliedvers. 1…. vers 42.nor lying as dead, yet by the 9. of Mark it is cleare that when the diuel went out of him he cryed, was rente ſore, and lay as deade. In luke. t…ere is mention of … of tearing. but that is to be vnderstoode of the time of his po…ſeſſion and not after that leſu… … the deuill, and comm…ded him to goe …orth & ſo of the acte ….In the 4. of Luke we reade of the diſpoſſeſſion of one of Capernaum, whome Chriſt met in the ſynagogue, but we heare no thing of any loude cry: that then was ſent forth, yet by the 1. of Mark verſe 26. where the ſame myracle is recorded it is playne there was ſuch a cry: for it is ſaid, the vncleane ſpirit cryed with a l…ud voyce. In that there is then no more mention in the goſpell of theſe I call ſignes of diſpoſſeſſion, it is not becauſe they which were diſpoſſeſſed, did not cry, neither were ſore rent, nor lay for a ſeaſon as deade, at the going out of the ſpirit, but only the luna…dke Marke 9. whereof fewe will doubt, the e…place compared and conſidered with that of the Act: But for that the holy Fuangeliſts labouring after breuity doe (vſuall:) … only the ſaid greate workes with ſome ſewe circumſtances, as out of whome the diuell was caſt,vers. 15. where and ſpecially by whome & in what manner it was done vi… by the word or commaundement of Chriſt: without deſcribing at large the manner of ſathans vexing the ſayde party, either while he held his poſſeſſion, or when he went forth, the 9: of Marke only excepted, where both theſe are performed… & therfore it is that elſ-where we reade not of all the 3. ſignes, and not becauſe other diſpoſſeſſed perſons did not cry &c. when the ſprit went out, but only he. And where the Diſc: ſaith that rather then fayle I will be content with anyone of them: I anſwer that howſoeuer I thinke theſe 3: ſignes were vſually heard and ſeene in the egreſſe of the ſpirits, yet it may be not alwayes, but ſometimes two or percaſe one did ſuffice to ſignify the ſame, and yet are not the other therefore in vaīe becauſe the more ſignes the more we are confirmed in the diſpoſſeſſion of one: for why may not this as well be true of the ſignes of diſpoſſeſſion as of poſſeſſion? where all the ſignes are not required. but ſome of many may ſuffice, as hath bene ſhewed before yea what & if we ſhould ſee one bowed togither, ſo as he could not lift vp himſelf, as the *vers 11. for it is very likelye ſhee was poſeſt.poſſeſſed woman was Luke 13. might we not well thence gather (eſpecially if we perceiued that it was not naturall) that he had a ſpirit cauſing the infirmity of body, and that he was ſo bound by ſathan? And yet this is but one effect or operation of ſathan: & ſo but one ſigne of poſſeſſion. And why one ſigne may not ſuffice to ſignify the ſpirits going out of a man, as well as this being in the body of mā I for my part doe not ſee neither doe I think that the Diſc. can ſhew any reaſon. And although be it one, or more, there is ſinguler vſe of the ſigne or ſignes, to ſignifye the egreſſſe, as I hauehave ſhewed before, treating thereof: Yet are the ſignes of diſpoſſeſſion of no ſuch abſolut neceſſity, as the ſignes of poſſeſſion are, as might eaſilye be ſhewed. And therefore I will not deny but that one may be diſpoſſeſſed, and none of theſe ſignes appeare, which is more: the health and eaſe of the party from all former vexation by the diuell, declaring his deliue rance from the diuell, as it is in naturall diſeaſes: yet I think it falleth out thus very ſeldome if euer, for the reaſons formerly giuen by me. Vnderſtand me of the eiection of ſathan by the finger of God,de Doemon. cap. 52. ſect. 20. & not of his voluntary egreſſe as is in the papacy, which may well alter the caſe. And ſo is Thyreus fully anſwered ſaying, non raro fit vt ſpiritus de ſcendant, nullis ſui diſceſſus poſt ſe datis ſignis. It is often ſeene that ſathan departeth, leauing no ſignes of his going: which the Diſc. in the ende of this Chapter obiecteth out of him againſt me.
From theſe ſignes he proceedeth to certayne other, which my ſelfe hauehave obſerued in experience, whereof we hauehave heard before, & ſaith that it may not be omitted of whome I hauehave learned them, euen of Thyreus forſooth. But how can this poſſibly be true? ſeing Thyreus tretiſe de doem…niacis, from which by my handes theſe counterfeyts ſhold hauehave receaued their directions concerninge the ſignes, came not to England vntill the yeare 1598. they ſuffring or doinge the ſame, the one of them I meane Darling 1595. and the other viz. the 7. in Lancaſhire 1596.? How greatly alſo in this reſpect did the Diſc. f…rget… himſelfe to make (almoſt) a whole *I meane the firſt bodke of the Diſco…trisbooke to this end, to perſwade the world, that I hauehave learned all my ſkile (forſooth) concerning poſſeſſion, of Thyreus the leſuite, and in the ſame booke eueryevery where alleadge him to conſute me: whe…eby appeareth that Thyreus and I diſſent in iudgment as much almoſt as two can diſſent about the doctrie in queſtion: & therefore it is very vnlikely that I hauehave learned I know not what from him. He procedeth to obiect againſt the ſignes heard and ſene at the diſpoſſeſſion of the parties controuerted as followeth.
The cheif aſſurance,pag. 53. that M. Dar. and M. More had, that ſathan had left lane Aſhton, was her owne wordes, viz. when riſing from her ſit, ſhe ſaid he is gone, he is gone, I am well, I thank god. And hauing wept in the ſaid fitt, ſhee alſo ſaide, that then Sathan departed from her. So as heere we hauehave a newe ſigne of Sathans going out of one: viz. the wepinge of the party.
That M. More hath ſaid no ſuch thing, as the truth is, ſo it is probable heerby, for that the Diſc. in the margent hath not noted the article and page, as his vſuall manner is in other places, which if he could hauehave done, he woulde neuer hauehave omitted. And truly for my owne part (god is my witneſſe) I neuer ſaid ſo, yea it was farr from me, much leſſe did I depoſe ſo, as the Diſc. affirmeth, yea what need it, ſeeing beſides her moſt extreame tormentes at that time, I (with many more) ſawe her lye as dead for a ſeaſon: which had I forgotten as it is not likely, yet thereof the ſtory of the 7. in Lancaſhire written by M. Dickons (one of the coppies whereof I had) would hauehave put me in minde: …. heereof alſo I was neuer depoſed nor examyned, no nor yet concerning the 7. in Lancaſhire, ſaue the firſt time I was befor the Biſhope a worde ar two, concerning them all in generaall, as whether I had not ſeene them before M. Starchy writ vntounto me, and whether M. More had not bene there before he went with me. VVherby appeareth the corrupt dealing of the Diſcouerer, who in the margent hath Darrell ad art. 17 pag. 144. And whereas in the Lancaſhire ſtory penned by M. Dickons, from whence (and not from M. More nor me) the Diſc. hath both this and a great deale more in this ſaid chapter, and elſwhere ſcattered heere and there, there is mention of her increaſe of torment (which as I conceaue is ment by thoſe words Mar. 9. rent ſore) where-vponupon theſe wordes are vſed: Now in this time they were all greeued to ſee how pittifully ſhe was tormented. & togither with that he heere mentioneth this, viz. ſhe was caſt into a traunce, and lay as one deade for a while: he hath of purpoſe omitted both theſe: that ſoe he might weaken that it is ſaide by me concerninge the ſignes of diſpoſſeſſion, and withall bring the reader ignorant herefo, to ſuſpect h…r diſpoſſeſſion, and togither with hers all the reſt. To which purpoſe he proceedeth to the diſpoſſeſſion of Margares Byrom, and the ſiges thereof: wherein he dealeth more playnlie and leſſe corruptly, I meane eſpecially in that he telleth in the argument from whence … had the ſame: not from M. Mores depoſiuons & mine, but from the hiſtory of the 7. in Lancaſhire.
Margaret Byrom ſaide that at her reuerting…, after ſhee had lyen as dead half … her belly towards her breſt,… thence to her throat &c. as followeth the hiſtory before. It le…t behinde it ſaid …heea … throat, and a filthy …, that a weeke after her meate was vnſau…ry. Heere wee hauehave the Ieſuite, ſtinche. And beſides the muſt infallable mate among…e I. … dipoſſ…ſſi…, viz. …ying for dead is heere confuted, for this party was … was gone.
This obiection ariſeth onlye of the miſplacinge of one worde which the writer of this ſtory M. Dick…n … which being placed in his right place the obiection is ea…y an …: for wheras it is thus ſet downe.This word … …etto. M. … (a) that at her … after ſhee had lyen as dead … &c. it ſhoulde hauehave bene thus Margaret Byronſay … had lye as dead … an houre, that ſhe felt the ſpirit come vp &c. neither can the firſte in any ſence or reaſon be Byron, as they muſt needes it we take the wordes as they are … reported: for ſhe knew not how long …he lay dead, no more then a deade body: But very … they belong to the writer of …, as appeareth by the right placing of the word that. From Margaret Byro… he proceedeth to the … and out of the Lancaſhi… ſtory, ſetteth downe at large the ſeuerall thapes that the euill ſpirits (as it ſhoulde ſeeme) cauſed preſently vponupon their egreſſe from them, and preſented themſelues into theire eyes. as if they had gone for… of them indued with ſuch bodyes and there-vponupon pla…eth vppon Darlynges m…wſe. And all this to make their diſpoſſeſſion odiou…, or ridiculous if he could, whereas indeede it conf…ometh the ſame. But he ſaith neuer a word of their moſt extrame torments, for renting ſore, their cryinge … their lying all … they had bene ſtarke dea…e, which in the … downe with their ſeuerall circumſtaunces: The…e thinges he thougt good to omitt:
… all the ſignes of diſpoſſeſſion, and therein the diſpoſſeſſion of o…r Demnia …k…,… confirmed by the ſignes thereof, hee … they may ſhewe them, and yet not ….… cap. … ſect. 4. I anſwer … and graunte that … as the putting out of a c… die, the breaking of a quarry in the glaſſe-windowe, and ſuch like ridiculous ſignes, it is moſt true▪ the ſignes alſo which of their owne accord they giuegive, as the ſenſible and vi… (as I may ſay) going out in ſuch … as we heare, vomiting &c. I doubt not but they may at theire lunt… pleaſure omitt: but that they may ſhew them and keepe their poſſeſſion. eſpecially the ſignes mentioned in the goſpell, as the …eſuite will hauehave it, and that alſo after the meanes is vſed arig…t, which god …ath or…e, ne… for the caſting out of diuells I deny. …or it cannot be that god will ſuffer the ſpirites thus to delude & mock his people, which ſhall be heereabouts occupied in faith and obedience to his owne ordinance: wherein as the wicked ſpirits would delight exceedingly, thus (I meane) to di…emble an egreſſe, in handling the perſons poſſeſſed in ſuch manner as ſome times they did when they wente out of men, and eſpecially at the time we ſpeake of, ſo woulde they vſe the ſame full often: yea I truſt if it were ſo, & left to then pleaſure, and that the diuells were not in this caſe ouer ruled & brydled by that ouer & allruſig had of god, all England ſhold hauehave heard of it before this. Againe were it thus that the ſpirits might giuegive theſe ſigns & tarrie in men, or that the ſpirits might omitt all the ſignes metioed in the ſcripture whē they goe forth of men, we could not know that the poſſeſſed were diſpoſſeſſed as hath bene ſhewed, but muſt needes ſtand in doubt therof at leaſt for a time, & that time wherin we are affected with the works of god, it euer: whereby it would come to paſte, that when this wonderfull worke of god ſholde at any time be wrought, the lord ſhould neither be hattely prayſed, for the ſame, and receaue that glory that otherwiſe would be giuen him, nor man receaue ſound profit therby. And it is a wonderfull thing to conſider how ready the papiſts are to affirme that their Exorciſ…s can & doe compell the ſpirits to giuegive ſuch ſignes as they pleaſeof their departure, and neuer once thinke of gods compellinge them to giuegive the ſignes mentioned in his word at their egreſſe, for the a…s;ſurance of his people, that they are gone out, who without the ſame cannot poſſible knowe … much nor of his reſtrayning them to ſhewe the ſaid ſignes whē yet they remaine within them.