An Answer to Six Reasons of Thomas Pound, Part 2
The ſeconde Reaſon.
Your ſecond Reaſon I doe call falſe, for that you doe falſely reporte, that the holie Scriptures are full of harde and deepe miſteries. And for that you do falſely affirme, that S. Auſten did ſharpely reboke Honoratus▪ for ruſhyng ſo boldely into the holie Scriptures, where as he would not be ſo bolde, as to take vponupon him to vnderſtand ſuche a Poet as Terence was without a Maiſter.
Firſte, I would wiſhe you to weigh well the wordes of S. Paule, written to Timothie. Doe thou (ſaieth S. Paule to Timothie)2. Tim. 3. continue in thoſe thynges whiche thou haſt learned, and are committed vntounto thee, knowyng of whom thou haſt learned them, and that thou haſt known (euen from thine Infancie) the holy Scriptures, which are ſufficient to inſtructe thee to ſaluation, through that faithe whiche is in Chriſte Ieſus. EueryEvery Scripture that was written by diuine inſpiratiō, is profitable to teache, to correct, to reproue, and to inſtructe in righteouſneſſe, that the man of God maie be perfectly inſtructed to eueryevery good worke.
If all Scriptures, bee ſo full of harde and deepe miſteries (as you hauehave ſaied) then can not any Scripture bee ſo profitable to teache &c. As Sainct Paule telleth Timothie: That all Scriptures be, neither can the man of GOD bee thereby perfectly inſtructed to eueryevery good worke.
We reade,Luk. 24. that our Sauiour Chriſte, did ſharply reprehende his two Diſciples, as he walked with them towardes Emaus, for that thei were ſo dull and harde to beleeue, that whiche the Prophetes had ſo plainly ſpoken. Ought not Chriſte (ꝙ he) to ſufter theſe thinges, and ſo to enter into his glorie? As though he ſhould hauehave ſaied: are you ſo doltiſhe and blockiſhe, that you vnderſtande not ſo plaine ſpeeches as the Prophets hauehave vſed concernyng the ſufferyng es of Chriſte?
And appearyng to them afterwardes, as thei were altogether in Ieruſalem: He telleth them, that of neceſſitie, all muſte bee fulfilled, that had beene written concernyng him, either in the lawe of Moyſes, in the Prophets, or in the Pſalmes. And that thei might vnderſtande the Scriptures, he did then open their vnderſtandynges: Whereby it appeareth, that it was not the hardneſſe and deepeneſſe of the miſteries (wherewith, as you ſaie the Scripture is full) that helde them from the vnderſtandyng thereof: but the dulneſſe of their owne vnderſtandyng, becauſe thei were as yet but carnall: and therefore coulde not perceiue thynges belongyng to the ſpirite of God, as Sainct Paule hath written.1. Cor. 2. The naturall man, doeth not perceiue theſe thynges that doe belong to the ſpirite of God. Not that we bee of our ſelues, as of our ſelues,2. Cor. 3. ſufficient to thinke any thyng, but our ſufficiencie is of God. &c.
Now, for that whiche you hauehave cited, out of Austine, concernyng the reprehendyng of Honoratus: I would gladly knowe of you, what Honoratus it was that you ſpeake of. One there was of that name, to whom Sainct Austine wrote his .120. Epiſtle. But that Honoratus was not like to vſe any ſuche ſpeeche to S. Austine. Neither doeth Sainct Austine in that Epiſtle, vſe any ſuche ſpeeche to hym, as you ſaie he did. But in the laſte ende of the Epiſtle, Saint Austine ſheweth hym ſelf to be of an other mynde, then (by your reporte) your Austine ſeemed to be. For he ſaieth thus.
Habes librum, & ſi prolixum, tamen, quantum exiſtimo non ſuperfluum. &c. Thou haſte here a Booke (ſaieth Sainct Austine) whiche though it be long: yet, as I thinke, it is not ſuperfluous. But doe thou louelove the Eccleſiaſticall writinges alſo, and thou ſhalte not finde many thynges, which thou ſhouldeſt neede to ſeeke for at my handes. But by reading and ruminating or cuddyng (if thou doe alſo purely praie vntounto the Lorde, that is the giuer of all good thinges) thou ſhalt learne throughly, all thoſe thynges, or vndoubtedly very many of thoſe thinges, that are worth the knowyng, rather by his inſpiration, then by any mannes admonition: Although, euen in the ſame thyng wherein wee doe with right iudgement allowe that man that doth outwardly admoniſh vsus well: what other thing doe we, then teſtifie that we hauehave an inwarde light that doeth teache vsus, and is our Maiſter? Thus farre Austine. Lette your freendes iudge, whether it be likely, that this Austine, and this Honoratus, would vſe ſuche ſpeeches the one to the other, as you reporte yours to hauehave doen.
One other Honoratus there was, to whom our S. Austine wrote his .161. Epiſtle. This man helde with Donatus: and in that Epiſtle Saint Austine doeth exhorte hym, to render a reaſon quietly in writing, wherefore the name of the Church ſhould at that time remaine onelyonly among the Donatiſts.
There was alſo a thirde, Honoratus, to whom our S. Austine wrote his .179. Epiſtle. This man Saint Austine calleth brother and fellowe Biſhop, and doeth inſtruct hym at large in the libertie of fliyng perſecution: wherein he vſeth not one worde, that maie bee wreſted to that meanyng that you hauehave reported.
But you will ſaie, there is yet one other, to whome Saint Austine wrote his Booke, De vtilitate credendi.
Suche an Honoratus there was in deede. But when you ſhall reade that Booke with more indifferent iudgement: you ſhall not finde, that Austine to bee of your mynde. Not muche before that place that you take holde of, writing of the truth of the Scripture, and noting that we ought to louelove the Scripture before wee learne it: he writeth thus. Quicquid eſt (mihi crede) in Scripturis illis, altum & diuinum eſt. &c. Beleeue me (ſaieth Saint Austine) whatſoeuer thyng is in the Scriptures, the ſame is deepe and diuine: truthe is in it altogether, and a diſcipline that is moſte meete for the refreſhyng and reſtoryng of myndes: and vndoubtedly, ſo moderated, that eueryevery manne maie drawe therehence, enough to ſatiffie him ſelf, if ſo be that he come to drawe after a deuout and Godly ſorte, as true Religion requireth. And immediatly before the place that you ſeeme to take holde of: he page missing
By that interpretation that you make of the wordes that are written in the ſixteene of Mathew: ye maintaine the groſſe errour, of buildyng Chriſt his Churche vponupon Peter the man,Aug. de verbis. Domini. ſer. 13. and not vponupon Chriſt the Rocke: not withſtandyng, that the beſt of the Catholique Doctors hauehave written to the contrarie. Yea, and herehence come all your Indulgencies and Pardones, with abſolute power for your Pope to doe what he will▪ without checke or controulement.
I might here take iuſt occaſion, to rehearſe all thoſe errors, that hauehave bene, and are holden by your ſorte, and aſcribe them all, to that whiche S. Austine ſpeaketh of in the wordes that you cite: that is. That by your ſort, the good Scriptures, are not well vnderſtanded. But ſtudiyng to be breefe, I paſſe them ouer.
To proceede in mine Aunſwere: you eatche holde of S. Peter. And he muſt needes helpe you to face out your lye.2. Pet. 3. If S. Peter will hauehave your fauour, he muſt needes beare you recorde, that the Scriptures are full of harde and deepe miſteries, as you hauehave taught S. Austine to ſaie. But when the place that you cite ſhalbe weighed, with indifferent iudgement: it will be founde that S. Peters meanyng, was not as you take is to be.
Sainct Peter hath written thus. But wee looke for newe heauens, and a newe earth, accordyng to his promiſe, wherein dwelleth righteouſneſſe. Wherefore beloued, ſeeyng that ye looke for ſuche thinges thee dilligent, that ye maie be founde of hym in peace, without ſpot, and blameleſſe. And ſuppoſe, that the long ſufferyng of our Lorde, is ſaluation: euen as our beloued brother Paule (accordyng to the wiſedome giuen vntounto hym) wrote to you, as one that in al his Epiſtles, ſpeaketh of thoſe thinges, amongſte whiche, ſome thynges are harde to be vnderſtanded, whiche thei that bee vnlearned and vnſtable doe peruerte, as thei doe alſo other Scriptures to their owne deſtruction.
If you reade theſe wordes of S. Peter in the Greeke tongue (wherein the Apoſtle wrote them) you ſhall finde that the Relatiue foreign, is of the newter gender, and cannot by the rules of Grammer, agree with foreign, whiche is of the feminine gender. Wherefore, it muſt be Engliſhed, thus. In, or amongſt which thinges or matters that Paule wrote of, and not, in thoſe Epiſtles that he wrote: as in your application of Peters woordes, you ſeeme to vnderſtande him to meane. But peraduenture, you hauehave no good likyng of the Greeke Text, neither of our Latine tranſlations. I will therefore ſet doune the wordes of S. Peter, euen as I finde them in the tranſlation, that is allowed in the Counſell of Trent: and as thei be writtē in an old written Bible that I hauehave in Parchment, written, I knowe not how many hundred yeares paſt. Thus are thei written in the Bible. Propter quod chariſſimi, haec expectantes, ſatagite, immaculati & inuiolati ei inueniri in pace: & domini noſtri longanimitatem, ſalutem arbitremini, ſicut & chariſſimus frater noſter Paulus, ſecundum datam ſibi ſapientiam, ſcripſit vobis, ſicut & in omnibus epiſtolis, loquens in eis de hijs, in quibus ſunt quaedam difficilia intellectu, quae indocti & inſtabiles deprauant, ſicut & caeteras ſcripturas, ad ſuam ipſorum perditionem. And I thinke, that you your ſelfe would tranſlate them into Engliſhe, thus. Wherefore, dearely beloued, waityng for theſe thinges, giuegive your endeuour to be founde vntounto hym in peace, beeyng without ſpot, and vndefiled: and thinke that the long ſufferyng of our Lorde, is ſaluation, euen as our moſte deare brother Paule (according to the wiſedom that is giuen vntounto him) hath written to you, euen as in eueryevery Epiſtle, ſpeakyng in them of thoſe thinges, amongſt whiche are ſome thinges, that are harde to be vnderſtanded, whiche vnlearned and vnſtable menne, doe depraue, euen as thei doe other Scriptures, to their owne deſtruction.
I truſt you doe ſee now, that we neede not that reaſon, whiche you doe call childiſhe, and is not indeepe ſo childiſhe, but that it hath in all ages been (and is ſtill) allowed amongſt the learned, for the beſte rule in vnderſtandyng of places of the Scripture, wherein is any difficultie.
But now you doe begge (or rather take) leaue, to poſe vsus one queſtion furder, to the quicke. And thus you ſaie. How is it poſſible, to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures, which is Canonicall Scripture, and which is not? &c.
You ſeeme to bee perſwaded that this queſtion toucheth to the quicke in deede. For you affirme plainly, that if any Infidell, Hereticke, or Arbeiſt, ſhall denie any parte of the olde or newe Teſtament, or the whole olde and new Teſtament (as in tymes paſt ſome hauehave doen.) &c. We hauehave no Ankor holde againſt ſuch, but onelyonly the Reuelation of God to the Churche, by Tradition, which Churche is the piller, and ſure ſtaie of truth. &c.
I confeſſe, that the Church is the Piller and ſure ſtaie of truthe, as Sainct Paule writeth.1. Tim. 3. But that this truth is reuealed to the Churche by Tradition (as you write) that I denie. For God hath taught, (and doth ſtill teach) the truthe to his Churche, by the worde of truth, and not by Reuelation or Tradition. And that worde of truthe is ſufficient, and needeth not that any thyng ſhould bee added to it: either by Reuelation, or by Tradition. Yea▪ there is an horrible curſſe pronounced againſt all ſuch as ſhall adde any thyng to in.
The true Catholique Churche, is in deede the Piller and ſure ſtaie, whereon, that truthe that is taught by the worde of truthe, doeth ſtaie. For that worde of truthe, is the voyce of her Sheepeheard, and ſhe delighteth in hearyng that voyce: but the voyce of a ſtraunger ſhe can not abyde to heare. The truthe taught by the voyce of her Sheepehearde, ſhe laieth vp in her harte: and all her delight is to lette men ſee it, in her life and conuerſation, that ſéeing her good lyfe, they may be occaſioned therby, to glorifie her ſpouſe Chriſte, and his and her heauenly Father.
This is that authoritie, that S. Austine ſayth, moued him to beléeue the Goſpell. And this authoritie cauſed him to write thus, againſt that Epiſtle of Manichaeus, which the Maniches called theyr foundation.Tom. 6. Ego veró Euangelio non crederem, niſi me Catholicae Eccleſiae commoueret authoritas. Surely, I would not beléeue the Goſpell, except the authoritie of the Church dyd mooue me thereto.
Not many lines before thoſe words, S. Austine ſayth thus to the Maniches. Apud vos, vbi nihil horum eſt, quod me inuitet ac teneat. &c. That is: Amongſt you, where no part of that thing is, which might allure and holde me, there ſoūdeth only a promiſing of the trueth: which vndoubtedly, if it be ſhewed foorth ſo manifeſtly, that it may not be doubted of: it is to be preferred before all thoſe thinges that doo holde me in the Church.
I pray you (Maiſter Pownde) ponder well theſe wordes of Austine: and be not afrayde with Austine to yéelde, to the manifeſt trueth, (when it ſhall be manifeſted to you) onelyonly becauſe it lacketh the conſent of Peoples, and Nations, the authoritie of Myracles, the nouriſhment of hope, the increaſe of looue, the eſtabliſhment of Antiquitie, the holde from Peters ſeate, the ſucceſſion of Prieſts, and the name of Catholique. For S. Augustine ſayth: That the manifeſt trueth muſt be preferred before all theſe.
But if you wyll marke it well, you ſhall finde that the trueth which we holde and teach, and would wiſhe you and all your ſort to embrace, dooth not lacke the chéefeſt of thoſe thinges that mooued S. Austine firſt to embrace it. For it is the ſame, that firſt gotte credite, by thoſe Myracles that were wrought by Chriſte and his Apoſtles.Mark. 16. It was, and is ſtyll nouriſhed by hope: It was, and is ſtyll increaſed by looue, it is alſo confirmed by that ſeate which you call Peters, and hath the ſucceſſion of Prieſts, although not in ſuch ſort as you allowe of. And laſt of all, it hath the right name of Catholique.
Thus, I hope, you doo now ſée, that you hauehave not rightly applied, eyther the words of Paule, or of Austine: mynding thereby to prooue, that the Church of Roome, (being ſuch a Church, as nowe it ſheweth it ſelfe to be) is the Piller of trueth, and that Catholique Church, whereunto all Chriſtians ſhould and muſt of neceſſitie cleaue, if they wyll be ſaued by Chriſte.
Your concluſion, wherein you aduiſe all men to beware of fléeing from the Church, to the iudgement of the Scriptures onelyonly. &c. Was not ſo aduiſedly made, as were ſéemely to be made, by one that were ſo well ſéen in the writings of ye Fathers, as you would ſéeme to be. For (as I thinke, yea, I am perſwaded, that I may ſafely affirme,) there is not one of the auncient Fathers, of your minde in that poynt.
Saint Auſtine, in his Epiſtle fortie and eight, written to Vincentius, ſayth thus. Noli ergò frater, contra diuina tam multa, tam clara, tam indubitata teſtimonia. &c. Doo not therefore (Brother) ſhewe thy ſelfe wylling, to gather out of the wrytinges of Biſhoppes, reproches againſt ſo heauenly, ſo many, ſo cleare, and ſo vndoubted teſtimonies: whether the ſame Biſhops be on our ſide, as Hillarius, or of the vnitie it ſelfe, before the faction of Donatus was ſeparated from it, as Cyprian, and Agripinus: Firſt for that, that kinde of writing muſt be diſtinguiſhed, from the authoritie of the Canon, for they are not ſo read, that teſtimonie ſhould be taken out of them, that it might not be lawfull for any man, to be of a minde contrarie thereto, if perhappes they ſhall in any place be of other minde then the trueth requireth. For we are of that number that may not diſdayne, to take euen vntounto our ſelfe, this ſaying of the Apoſtle. And if ye be of an other minde in any thing,Phil. 3. God wyll reueale the ſame to you alſo.
Thus you may ſée, that S Auſtine dooth not allowe the ſentence of any man, no nor the ſentence of the vnitie it ſelfe (which I vnderſtand to be a generall Councell) againſt the Canonicall Scripture.
The ſame Saint Austine, wryting to Saint Ierome in his fifteene Epiſtle,Epiſt. 15. ſayth thus. Ego enim fateor charitati tuae. &c. I confeſſe (ſayth S. Austine) I hauehave learned to giuegive this reuerende feare and honor, onelyonly to thoſe Bookes of the Scriptures, which nowe are called Canonicall: that I doe firmely beléeue, that none of the Authors of them, hauehave in wryting erred any thing at all.
By this ſaying of Saint Austine, it may appeare, that he was of this minde, that there may be errour, euen in the decrées of your generall Councels.
Againe,De Bapt. Libr. 2. Cap. 2. againſt the Donatiſtes, Saint Austine wryteth thus. Quis autem neſciat Scripturam canonicam. &c. Who can be ignoraunt (ſayth Saint Austine) that the holy Scripture, as well of the olde as of the newe Teſtament, is conteyned within her owne boundes or lymittes: and that the ſame is ſo preferred before all the latter wrytings of Biſhops, that concerning it, there may be no doubt or controuerſie at all, whether any thing that is certainly knowne to be written in it, be true or right. And the writinges of Byſhoppes, which hauehave bene, or be written, after the confirmation of the Canon, may be found faulte with (if it happen that any thing therein doo ſwarue from the trueth) eyther by more wyſe ſpéeche of any other, that is more expert in that matter: or by the more graue Authoritie of other Biſhoppes, or the wiſedome of menne better learned, or by Councels, yea, and that the Councels them ſelues, which are holden in particular Regions, or Prouinces, muſt without any doubting, giuegive place, to the authoritie of full Councels, which are made of the vniuerſall Chriſtian world. Yea, & that the full or generall Councels that are firſt holden, may be amended by them that are holden afterwardes, when by any experience of thinges, that thing that before was ſhut, is made open, and that thing which lay hyd, is made knowne. And this may be done, without any hautineſſe of ſacrilegious pride, without any ſwelling throte of arrogancie, without any contencion of ſpightfull enuie, with holie humilitie, with Catholique peace, and with Chriſtian Charitie. Thus farre Austine.
Nowe I thinke you wyll confeſſe, that your Catholique Church may erre: or elſe that S. Auſtine, one of the Doctors of that Church dyd erre. For he ſayth, that the latter generall Councels, may amend the former. He ſayth alſo, that there may be no doubt or controuerſie about the trueth of any thing, that is knowne to be written in the Canonicall Scriptures. Therefore, blame vsus not, though we flée from the iudgement of the Church to the ſcriptures, which can neuer deceaue vsus.
And as touching that inconuenience that you doo put vsus in minde of, which is the denying of the Scriptures by Atheiſts: I pray you let me propone one queſtion to you, and ſo poſe you as night to the quicke as you hauehave poſed vsus. What if your Church ſhould vtterly be denied to be the Church of Chriſte? Or what if thoſe Atheiſts that be in Englande, or elſe where, ſhould denie that Chriſte hath any Church at all: or that there is, or hath been, any ſuch Chriſte as we beléeue in? Might not thoſe Infidels (thinke you) laugh you to ſcorne, for robbing your ſelues of your owne defence,Ephe. 6. which is the worde of God, which Saint Paule calleth the ſworde of the Spirite?
But now you wyll returne to your purpoſe. If conference of one Scripture with an other, might giuegive lyght enough to all men: Howe happeneth it, that all ſectes vſing that conference, the ſectaries can neuer agrée in theyr opinions. &c. To this, not I, but S. Paule ſhall giuegive you aunſwer.1. Cor. 11. Oportet haereſes eſſe, vt hij qui probati ſunt, manifeſti ſint in vobis. It can not be auoyded, but that there muſt be hereſies, or ſectes, that they which be tryed, may be made knowne amongſt you. Let S. Paule defend his owne aſſertion, as he can. I wyll betake me to that vttermoſt ſhift that you ſay we hauehave, notwithſtanding, that you call it a weake one.
Saint Austine ſayth, that the Scriptures muſt be read, by ſuch as doo vndoubtedly beléeue, that they are moſt true witneſſes. And theſe are his wordes. Agant orando, De Trini. Libr. 15.& quaerendo, & bene viuēdo vt intelligant. &c. That is: They muſt labour by prayer, and by ſéeking, and by lyuing well: that they may vnderſtand, that is, that they may ſée in minde, (as much as may be ſéene) that which they doo holde by faith.Iam. 1. And S▪ Iames ſayth. If any man lacke wiſedome, let him aſke it of God. &c.
Thus may you ſée, that both S. Iames, and S. Austine doo allowe of this ſhift, which you doo accoumpt to be ſo weake, and ſuch intollerable pride. Yea, S. Austine addeth theſe wordes. Quis hoc prohibeat? imó veró, ad hoc quis non hortetur? Who can forbid this? Yea rather, who wyll not exhort héerunto? doo you therfore accoūpt of it as you luſte: we wyll ſtyll vſe it, as the ready way to attayne to that knowledge, that is neceſſarie for vsus.
As for the reuealing of the trueth to the vniuerſall Church, for which Chriſte him ſelfe dyd praye: we confeſſe that according to his promiſe, Chriſte hath reuealed to them altogether, and to eueryevery perticular member amongſt them, as much as he knewe to be méete to be reuealed to them. And ſo be the wordes of his promiſe. Ille vos docebit omnia, & ſuggeret vobis omnia, quae cū que dixero vobis. He ſhall teach you all thinges, and he ſhall put you in minde of all thoſe thinges, that I ſhall ſpeake vntounto you.
The pleaſaunt paſtime that you make, with the courſe that we take, in the ſearche and ſtudie of the Scriptures, I paſſe ouer: for I knowe, that he onelyonly to whome we pray, dooth know how faithfully we pray, and whether with teares or without. To him we ſhall ſtande, or fall▪ Iudge not you an other mans Seruaunt.
But you ſay, we muſt néedes be all deceyued, ſo long as we dwell in diſſention, and are not in errours only, but alſo, one of vsus contrarie to an other. And who now muſt be Iudge, to trie the Spirites, whether they be of God, or no? OnelyOnly the Church, (ſay you) or elſe they ſhall not be tryed at all. &c.
For the firſt, Saint Paule hath tolde you, that of neceſſitie, ſectes muſt be amongſt men,1. Cor. 11. and euen amongſt ſuch as be of the Church of Chriſte: And that becauſe, ſuch as be allowed or tryed, can not otherwiſe be knowen. And as touching the other poynt, Saint Austine ſayth thus. Contra inſidioſos errores, Deus voluit ponere firmamentum in ſcripturis, In. 1. Iohn Epiſt. Cap. 2.contra quas, nullus audet loqui▪ qui quoquo modo ſe vult videri Chriſtianum. It was the pleaſure of God, to ſet in the ſcriptures, a ſure Bulwarke againſt deceytfull errours: againſt which Scriptures, no man, that is any way wylling to ſéeme to be a Chriſtian, dare be bolde to ſpeake.
As golde by the toutch ſtone, ſo are the ſpirites tryed by the Scripture. And euerie one that is ſkilfull in the ſcriptures, that is, that can by conferring of one ſcripture with an other. finde out the meaning of the holy ghoſt in the ſcriptures: may be as bolde to vſe the ſcripture in the tryall of ſpirites, as the Goldſmith may be, to vſe the toutch ſtone, in the tryall of mettalles. And if ye thinke that the conference of one Scripture with an other, be not the ſureſt way to attaine to the true meaning of the Scriptures, looke Saint Austine, De Doctrina Chriſtiana. Lib. 3. Cap. 26. And thus much for aunſwer to your ſecond Reaſon, which I hauehave called Falſe.