An Answer to Six Reasons of Thomas Pound, Text – Part 1
7. September. 1580. ¶Sixe Reaſons ſet downe to ſhew, that it is no orderly way in cōtrouerſies of faith, to appeale to be tryed only by Scriptures (as the abſurde opinion of all the Sectaries is) but the ſentence & definition of the Catholike Church, by whome, as by the Spowſe of Chriſt, alwayes inſpired with the holy ghoſt, the holy Scripture is to be iudged.
FIrſt conſider well theſe words of our Sauiour in ſending vsus to the Scriptures, ſaying: Searche the Scriptures, for you thinke to hauehave eternall life in them. And theſe are they that beare witneſſe of me. Marke well theſe wordes,Iohn. …. I ſay: that the Scripture is but witneſſe bearer to the trueth, and not the Iudge to diſcerne of trueth: for iudgement giuing belongeth not to the witneſſe bearer, although he be as a rule to leade and direct the Iudge in true iudgement. But what if this witneſſe ſhould be currupted, as no man will deny but it may, yet this Iudge to whome the holy Ghoſt is promiſed, will finde it, and reforme it. Vnderſtād therfore my Reaſons, why of neceſſitie the Church muſt be Iudge of the Scriptures, and take your Pen and confute them I pray you if you can.
1. The firſt is,The firſt Reaſon. becauſe the written Text is mute and dumbe, vttering nothing to vsus from the Booke but only the wordes, and not the ſenſe, wherein the lyfe as it were of the Scripture conſiſteth: And what definitiue ſentence can ſuch a Iudge giuegive, to ouer rule the conceyted minde of an opinatiue man: which hath no euident meanes to pronounce any iudgement againſt him, but onelyonly to ſhewe him a dumbe ſigne in writing, which a wrangler may conſter ſtyll to his owne vnderſtanding againſt all the worlde.
2 The ſecond Reaſon is, becauſe the holy Scripture (as S. Auguſtine ſayth)The ſecōd Reaſon. is very full of harde and déepe anyſteries, in ſo much that when Honoratus ſayd to him (as many vnlearned men ſay now a dayes) that he vnderſtood it well enough without helpe of any inſtructor. Say you ſo (ſayth he) you would not take vponupon you to vnderſtand ſuch a Poet as Terence is, well, without a Maiſter? and dare you ruſhe into the holy Scriptures which are ſo full of Diuine myſteries, without a Maiſter? and dare you ruſhe into the holy Scriptures which are ſo full of Diuine myſteries, without a guide? All Hereſies (ſayth he) come of nothing elſe, Niſi dum ſcripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene: But whyle the good Scriptures are not well vnderſtoode: Héerto alſo S. Peter in his ſecond Epiſtle Cap. 3. beareth witneſſe ſaying: That many miſunder ſtood S. Paule in many harde places peruerſly to their owne perdition: But then you will ſay, the harde places may eaſely he vnderſtoode by conference of other Scriptures. Well, admit a chyldiſh reaſon for a worde or two, That becauſe they might ſo be among the humble minded, therfore they muſt néeds be ſo, though men be neuer ſo peruerſe: Yet giuegive mée leaue to poſe you then one Queſtion farther to ye quick. Howe is it poſſible to knowe by any conference of the Scriptures, which is Canonicall Scripture and which is not? certainely, if any Infidell would deny the olde Teſtament (as ſome Heretikes in time paſt hauehave done) and I praye God there be not many▪ Atheiſtes at this day in England, which be farther gone yet then they: Yea, if ſuch a one ſhould deny all the newe Teſtament alſo, we hauehave no ſure Anckor holde againſt him but the Reuelation of God, by tradition to his Church, which is the pyllor and ſure ſtay of trueth, which S. Auguſtine well ſéeing, thought he might be bolde to ſay, with due reuerence to God, and holie Scripture bothe: I ſhould not beleue the Goſpell except the authoritie of ye Church did moue me thereunto, meanyng that the tradition of the vniuerſall Churche, and the teſtimonie of all the people of God, in whom the holie Ghoſte dwelleth, muſt iuſtly moue vsus to credite that, whiche their authoritie doth commaunde vsus to giuegive credite vntounto. Therefore let any man beware of fliyng from the Churches Iudgement, to the Scripture onelyonly, leaſt the Scripture it ſelf ſhould vtterly bee denied, as by ſome Atheiſtes in Englande (as I heare ſaie is alreadie: And then might ſuche Infidels laugh all Heretickes to ſcorne, for robbyng them ſelues of their owne defence: But now to returne to my purpoſe, if conference of one Scripture with an other, might giuegive light enough to all men: How happeneth it that all Sects, vſing that conference, yet thei can neuer agrre in their opinions, but diuers men, and all vſing ſuche conference, doe yet conſtrue it diuerſly? The vttermoſte ſhifte thei hauehave is this, (ſuche a weake one as it is,) that the Reader muſt giuegive hymſelf to prayer, for the truthe to be reuealed vntounto hym. Wherein marke I praie you the iutollerable pride of arrogant Hypocrites: that thei will firſt miſtruſt Gods reuelation of the truthe to his Vniaerſall Churche, for the whiche Chriſte himſelf hath prayed, and promiſed to teache them all tr… moſte preſumptuouſly to come and …pt God, to hauehave that truthe reuealed onelyonly to them ſelues, whiche beyng reuealed many hundreth yeares agone, and defined in generall Counſell, by all the holie Fathers: where the holie Ghoſte is alwaies preſent, or at leaſte by the holie Doctors in their writynges ſet doune, yet thei will not beleeue it, nor harken vntounto it: yet this is their courſe, and ſo as thei ſaie forſoothe, thei praie very hartely, though fewe of them can wring out any teares in their praiers, but yet with ſuche a faithe in the Lorde (as their owne terme is) that they dooe all verely beleeue the truthe is reuealed vntounto them. And yet perdie, thei muſt needes be all deceiued, as long as thei dwell in diſſention, and are not in errors onelyonly, but one contrarie to an other: who now muſt be the Iudge to trie the ſpirites whether they be of God or no, but onelyonly the Churche? Or els ſhall thei not bee tried at all, but continuall permiſſion for infinite Legions of liyng ſpirites, to be ſtill vndetected that thei maie ſeduce more and more.
3 The third Reaſon is,The third Reaſon. 2. Pet. 1. d. becauſe S. Peter ſaieth plainly, that no Scripture is to bee taken after any miuate interpretatiō, for it was not vttered after the will and fantaſie of man, but as holie men of God ſpake it, inſpired by the holy Ghoſt: yet moſt contrary to this expreſſe rule, eueryevery priuate mā ſhall hauehave libertie to interprete it to his owne peruers will▪ after a priuate interpretation, otherwiſe then at firſt it was inſpired to the holy men. If euer man maie appeale from the Eccleſiaſticall ſence of the vniuerſall Churche to the Text it ſelf, as he vnderſtandeth it.
4 The fourth Reaſon is,The fourth Reaſon. becauſé by appealyng onelyonly to the Scripture, you ſéeme to giuegive men libertie to denie all vnwritten verities, which wee hauehave receiued of the Churche, either by expreſſe definition in generall Counſaile, or but by tradition. And I beleeue at my firſte na… of unwritten verities: Maiſter Crowley and his … ſtraight waie, as though all ſuche were … to temper their follie (I will not ſaie their pride) a … that point. I aſke them all this queſtion. How thei proue the Trinitie of perſones in the Vnitie of the ſubſtaunce in Godheade by the expreſſe Scriptures? Or the two diſtinct natures in Chriſte and but one perſon? Or God the Father to be Ingenitus? Or the proceedyng of the holy Ghoſte, both from the Father and from the Sonne, as from one Fountaine: or the deſcendyng of Chriſt into Hell, by plaine wordes of Scripture? (beyng therefore of many now a daies flatly deuyed,) Or the cuſtome of Baptiſing of Infants, ſeeyng the Scripture, ſoundeth rather, as though thei ſhould bee taught firſt their faith, before their were Baptized, ſaiyng: Goe and teathe all Nations Baptizyng them. &c. Or why we ſhould kéepe the Sondaie now at all, and not the Saterdaie rather whiche was the Iewes Sabothe daie, that the Scripture ſpeaketh of to be ſanctified? Although your Puritanes which goe to plough vponupon all the Churches Holydaies, ſeeme not yet to know the Sondaie, for any of their makyng: or why we ſhould not abſtaine now ſtill like Iewes from ſtrangled meates, as the Apoſtels once decreed in the Acts, and by no expreſſe Scripture againe abrogated? Yea then why maie not any Hereticke denie al our thrée Créedes: both the Apoſtles Créede, the Nicen Creede as it is called, & the Creede of Athanaſius, ſeing neuer a one of theſe is written in Scripture expreſly, but all lefte vsus by tradition onelyonly vponupon credite of the Churche. Marke you not how theſe Bedlem Scripture men would ſhake all the foundations of our Chriſtian faith, by binding vsus to beleue nothing but Scripture? Do not theſe blinde guides thinke you, leade us a trim daunce towarde infidelitie? Thus muche of the fourth Reaſon.
5 The fift is becauſe that without a certaine Iudge for interpretatiō of Scripture abſolutely,The fift Reaſon. this abſurditie would followe yt God which is the Author of al perfectiō, and diſpoſeth eueryevery thing in ſwete & decent order, had left his vniuerſall Church in yearth in this confuſion: yt when ſoeuer any doubtfull queſtion ſhould ariſe, vpō conſtruction of his holy will, there were no prouiſion at all ordained by God for deciding of ſuch ſtrifes, and preſeruation of concord among his people, and then certainly the kingdome of Gods Churche, were not ſo well prouided for in their gouernment: as eueryevery ciuill kindome is by pollicie of carnall men, amōgſt whom, none almoſt are ſo barbarous, but that thei hauehave Counſellers for gouernment of their ſtate, & Iudges for expounding, & executing of their lawes, aſwell as lawes written, or els it were ridiculus: would not he be counted a very wiſe man (thinke you,) in one of our Parliamentes, whiche ſhould ſteppe vp like a graue Burgeſſe, and perſwade all his fellowes that for aſmuche as thei had a noble and an auncient Lawe written vntounto them, the Realme ſhould hauehave no longer neede henceforthe of any Prince, nor any Rulers, nor Peeres, nor Iudges, nor Iuſtices, nor ciuill Magiſtrates, but eueryevery man (vppon his worde for the warrant) would bee content to gouerne hym ſelf orderly by the lawe written, whiche (as his wiſedome) thinkes is plaine enough. And truely no wiſer be thei but muche more to bee laughed to ſcorne whiche will hauehave the Scripture to bee the onelyonly Iudge for eueryevery man to appeale vntounto, and refuſe all authoritie of the Churche in expoundyng thereof: for who knoweth not that the Arrian Heretickes, brought fortie places of Scripture for their horrible Hereſie, more then the Catholikes had againſt theim, but all falſely vnderſtoode, whiche when it is ſo miſunderſtoode and miſapplied, then S. Auguſtine calleth it the Heretickes howe, wherewith they ſhoote out their owne venemous arrowes. And Vincent Lir. ſaieth, it is then the Sheepes cloathyng, whiche the Wolfe doeth ſhroude hym ſelf in, becauſe that when a ſimple bodie, feeleth the ſoftneſſe as it were of his fliece, he ſhould not miſtruſt the Tyrannie of his teethe: That is to ſaie, of his falſe conſtruction of Scripture, wherwith he would deuour his ſaule: So did the Deuill hymſelf alleadge Scripture vntounto Chriſt, and as oft as any Heretikes aleadge Scripture to vsus againſt the Catholike faith: So oft ſaieth Vincentius, we maie be out of doubt the Deuill doeth ſpeake vntounto vsus by their mouthes, and ſaieth vntounto vsus euen as he ſaied vntounto Chriſt Si filius deies, mitte te deorſum, as much to ſaie, If thou wile bee the ſonne of God, and profeſſor of his holy Goſpell, caſt thy ſelf doune, from the high authoritie and tradition of this Catholike Churche, whom if wee aſke againe why we ſhould ſo doe, then ſaieth Vincentius, he commeth out with Scriptum eſt enim: becauſe it is written ſaieth he, in the holie booke, & from thence thou muſt learne a newe leſſon of me, how to be a right Chriſtian man. To whom we muſt ſaie then: Vade Satan non tentabis. &c. Auaunt Sathan, &c. and that with greate feruencie of faith: for more perillous is the temption of ſuch a flatteryng Serpent (ſaieth S. Auguſtine) then the roaryng of an angrie Lyon, becauſe the one wee flee from with feare, but the other with entiſing, maie come the nerer to ſting vsus.
6 The ſixt reaſon moſt waightie of all is this: becauſe if you will refuſe the authoritie of the Churches abſolute iudgement,The ſixt Reaſon. vppon the Scriptures true cenſe, you ſhall ſeeme plainly to denie the holy Ghoſte to be the Spirite of truthe, whiche vppon the Apoſtles and all the faithfull was ſent doune with viſible ſignes, and with his Church is promiſed to remaine vntounto the worldes ende: by these wordes of our Sauiour, I will aske my Father, and he ſhall ſend you an other comforter, to tarie with you for euer, the ſpirite of truth: And a little after thus. The holy Ghoſte the comforter, whom my Father will ſende in my name, ſhall teache you all truthe: Loe the Church is the ſureſt Iudge, and none ſhure but the Churche, for all men in doubtes of Scripture, becauſe it hath a promiſe that it ſhall neuer erre in iudgement, whiche is notably confirmed by the Prophet Eſay, ſaiyng. This is my couenaunt with them ſaieth our Lorde, my ſpirite whiche is in thee, and my worde which I hauehave put in thy mouth ſhal not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy ſeede, nor of thy ſeedes ſeede, now, nor euer to the worldes ende. O moſt comfortable promiſe, that the Spirite of truth ſhall neuer departe out of the Churches mouth. O fit Iudge appointed to be Iudge of Scripture for our profites, without preſumption. Remember then I praie you, what a ſottiſhe opinion this is which is held to the contrarie, that eueryevery priuate man, whom belike you wil imagine to be one of the Church, ſhall hauehave good beleue to be his own Iudge in vnderſtandyng of Scriptures, as your Craftes men are: and yet that the authoritie of the whole vniuerſall Churche, ſhall not preſume to …ake any iudgement vponupon them. Grauntyng this, as you muſt needes, that the Church, whiche is our Mother (as the Scripture ſaieth) muſt needes teach all her children, at firſt to beleeue in God (ſeyng faithe muſt come by hearing) and alſo to know the Scripture, and yet that the ſame Church being the piller and ſure ſtaie of touch, ſhall not be abſolute Iudge & imperial Scholemiſtreſſe, to teache vsus all how to beleue in God, and how to vnderſtande the Scripture. For the blindneſſe of your hartes, I maie ſaie as iuſtly to you, as Sainct Paule ſaied to the Galathians. O Inſenſati &c. O ye fooliſhe fellowes, who hath bewitched you, not to obeye vntounto the truthe? Which euen of Infantes and ſuckyng babes (as it were) is diſcerued as cleare as the Sunne? So that you muſt not diſdaine Maiſter Trippe to be tripped in this matter, for a ſilie ſeducer, to maintaine (as ye doe all) ſo groſe all opinion, beyng the forreſt in deeds, for al ſuche Foxes, to litter their whelps in. Therefor… to conclude this Aſſertion: acquite your ſelues as well as you can, why you maie not all bee iuſtly ſuſpected, to denie the deſcendyng of the holie Ghoſte vntounto the Churche, for as muche as you refuſe the Churches ſentence in iudgement, with whom the holie Ghoſte is promiſed alwaies to remaine, and in truthe to directe them.
Haec eſt fides mea quia eſt Catholica.
This is my faith, becauſe it is the Catholique faith.
Thomas Pownde.
The Aunſwere to Pownde, His ſixt Reaſons.
TO the ſix Reaſons that you ſet doune, to proue, that to prouoke to be tryed by the holy Scriptures onelyonly, in the controuerſies that maie ariſe aboute Religion, is no orderly waie: I might in fewe wordes aunſwere, thus, The firſt Reaſon is fonde, the ſecond is falſe, the thirde is fooliſhe, the fowerth is fantaſticall, the fift is fradulent, and the ſixt is fanaticall.
Thus might your Pamphlet bee aunſwered in ſixe wordes: as (before you did reade it, before ſo many witneſſes as it pleaſed you to call to the hearyng of it) I told you that I thought it might.
But leaſt you ſhould triumphe, after your manner, and ſaie, that not beyng able to aunſwere your Reaſons at large, I ſhifte you of with ſhorte ſentences: I will beſtowe ſome more tyme (whiche I could beſtowe muche better) in aunſweryng your rude Reaſones: I hope ſo, that neither you, nor any of your ſide, ſhall be able reaſonably to replie.
The firſt Reaſon.
FIrſt you ſaie, that ſuche controuerſies, maie not bée tried by the holie Scriptures, becauſe thei be mute and dumbe, vttering to vsus, from the booke, nothing but onelyonly the wordes, and not the ſenſe, wherein the life (as it were) of the Scripture, doeth conſiſt.
Howe fonde this Reaſon is. I thynke your ſelf ſhould ſee. For what ſence can there bee in woordes, that can not bee vttered by woordes? Or what wordes can any manne vſe in openyng the ſenſe of woordes written, but that the ſame beeyng ſette downe in writyng, maie as well open the cenſe: as thei might beeyng ſpoken and not written? you ſeeme to imagine, that we would hauehave the holy Scriptures (as thei bee written in bookes, & encloſed in coueringes) to be Iudge of ſuche matters, as you ſpeake of: for otherwiſe, how can you call them mute and dumbe?
The Prophet Ieremie was commaunded to write all the wordes of the Lorde againſt Iuda and Iſraell, and all other Nations, in a booke, and to cauſe the ſame to bee reade in the hearyng of all the people, and ſo he did, as appeareth in the .26. of his Propheſies, that eueryevery manne might bee turned awaie, from their owne moſte wicked waies, and ſo the Lorde might be mercifull to them. After this manner would we hauehave controuerſies iudged by the Scriptures. Not as thei bee written and kepte ſecret in hookes: but beeyng reuereudly read, wayed, and conſidered, with the circumſtaunces of perſon, tyme and place, with all other neceſſarie circumſtaunces: ſo that the Readers, beyng willyng to hauehave their controuerſies ended, dooe ſubmit them ſelues to that iudgement, that thei ſhall finde in the Scriptures, ſo read, waied and conſidered.
As for your Opinatiue man and wrangler, that you ſpeake of: if he will ſtande ſtill in his opinion (as you your ſelf doe (notwithſtandyng that it is made manifeſt, by the holy Scriptures, that his opiniō is not right: he muſt bee taken for an Hereticke, and after one or twoo warnynges, reiected, beyng ſubuerted, as one that ſynneth euen condempned by his owne conſcience.Titu. 3.