Answer unto a Crafy and Sophistical Cavillation, Debate · Confutation of book 3 · Section 45
Canterbury.
WHat nede you to bring Martine Bucer to make me answer,M. Bucer. if you could answer your selfe? but bicause you be ashamed of the matter, you would thrust Martine Bucer in your place, to receaue rebuke for you. But in this place he easeth you nothing at all, for he sayth no more but that the body and bloud of Christ be exhibited vntounto the worthy receiuers of the sacrament, which is true, but yet spiritually, not corporally.
And I neuer sayd, that Christ is vtterly absent, but I euer affirmed,The trew presense of Christ. that he is truly and spiritually present, and truly and spiritually exhibited vntounto the godly receiuours: but corporally is he neither in the receiuors, nor in or vnderunder the fourmes of bread or wine, as you do teach, clearly with out the consent of master Bucer, who writeth no such thing.
And where I alleadge of Saynt Augustine, that the sacrament of Christes body is called Christes body, after a certayn maner of speach, and you deny that saynt Augustine ment of a certayne maner of speach, but sayth onelyonly, after a certayne maner: Read the place of saynt Augustin who will, and he shall find, that he speaketh of the maner of speach, and that of such a maner of speach, as calleth one thing by the name of an other, where it is not the very thing in dede. For of the maner of speach is all the processe there, as apeareth by these his wordes: a day or two before good Friday, we vse in common speach to say: to morowe, or this day two dayes, Christ suffered. &c. Likewise vppon Easter day we say: this day Christ rose. And why do no men reproue vsus as lyars, whan we speake in this sort? And we call those dayes so by a similitude. &c. And so it is called that day which is not that day in dede. And sacramentes commonly hauehave the name of the thinges wherof they be sacramentes. Therfore as after a certayne manner the sacrament of Christes body, is Christes body: so likewise the sacramēt of fayth is fayth. And likewise sayth Saynt Paule, that in baptisme we be buried, he sayth not, that we signifie buriall, but he sayth playnly, that we be buried: So that the sacrament of so great a thing, is called by the name of the thing. All these be S. Augustines wordes, shewing how in the common vse of speach, one thing may hauehave the name of another. Wherfore when Doctor Gardiner sayth, that S. Augustine spake not of yt maner of speach, thou mayst beleue him hereafter as thou shalt see cause, but if thou trust his wordes to much, thou shalt soone be deceiued.
As for the reall presence of Christ in the sacrament, I graunt that he is really present,Really. after such sort as you expound really in this place, that is to say, indede, and yet but spiritually. For you say your selfe, that he is but after a spirituall maner there, and so is he spiritually honored, as S Augustine sayth.
But as concerning heat of disputation, marke well the wordes of S. Augustine, good reader, cited in my booke, and thou shalt see clerely, that all this multiplication of wordes is rather a iugling, then a direct answer. For saynt Augustine writeth not in heate of disputation, but temperatly and grauely, to a learned Bishop his deare frend, who demanded a question of him. And if Saynt Augustine had aunswered in heate of disputation, or for any other respect, otherwise then the truth, he had not done the part of a friend, nor of a learned and godly Bishop. And who so euer iudgeth so of Saynt Augustine, hath small estimation of him, and sheweth him selfe to hauehave litle knowledge of Saynt Augustine.
But in this your answer to saynt Augustine, you vtter where you learned a good part of your diuinitie, that is, of Albertus Pighius,Albertus Pighius. who is the father of this shift, and with this fleight eludeth Saynt Augustin when he could no otherwise answer. As you do now shake of the same Saynt Augustine, resembling as it were in that poynt the liuely countenaūce of your father Pighius. Next in my booke foloweth Theodoret
And to this purpose it is both pleasaunt, comfortable, and profitable to read Theodoretus in his Dialogs,Theodoretus in dialogis. where he disputeth and sheweth at length, how the names of things be chaunged in scripture, and yet thinges remayne still. And for example he proueth that the flesh of Christ is in the scripture sometime called a vayle or coueryng, sometime a cloth, sometyme a vestment, and sometyme a stole: & the bloud of the grape is called Christes bloud, and the names of bread and wine, and of his flesh and bloud, Christ doth so chaunge, that sometyme he calleth his body, corne or bread, and sometime contrary, he calleth bread his body. And likewise his bloud sometime he calleth wine, and sometime contrary he calleth wine his bloud.
For the more playne vnderstanding wherof, it shall not be amisse to recite his owne sayings in his foresayd dialogs, touching this matter of the holy sacrament of Christes flesh and bloud. The speakers in these dialogs be Orthodoxus, the right beleuer, and Eranistes his companyon, but not vnderstanding the right fayth.
Orthodoxus saith to his companion.In the first dialogue. Doost thou not know, that god caleth bread his flesh?
Eran.
I know that.
Orth.
And in an other place he calleth his body corne.
Eran.
I know that also, for I hauehave heard him say: The houre is come, that the sonne of man shalbe glorified. &c.Iohn. 12. Except the grayne of come, that falleth in the ground dye, it remayneth sole, but if it dye, then it bringeth forth much fruite.
Orth.
When he gaue the mysteries of sacraments,Math. 16. Mark. 14. Luc. 22. he called bread his body, and that which was mixt in the cup he called bloud.
Eran.
So he called them.
Orth.
But that also which was his naturall body, may well be called his body and his very bloud also, may be called his bloud.
Eran.
It is playne.
Orth.
But our sauiour without doubt chaunged the names, and gaue to the body the name of the signe or token, and to the token he gaue the name of the body. And so whē he called himself a vyne, he called bloud that, which was the token of bloud.Ioh. 15.
Eran.
Surely thou hast spokē the truth. But I would know the cause wherfore the names were changed.
Orth.
The cause is manifest to them that be expert in true religion. For he would that they which be partakers of the godly sacraments, Ioh 12. Math. 16. Ioh. 15.should not set their mindes vponupon the nature of the things which they see, but by the changing of the names, should beleue the things which be wrought in them by grace. For he that called that, which is his naturall body, corne and bred, and also called himselfe a vyne, he did honor the visible tokēs and signes, with the names of his body and bloud, not changing the nature, but adding grace to nature.
Eran.
Sacraments be spoken of sacramentally, and also by them be manifestly declared things, which all men know not.
Ortho.
Seyng then that it is certayne, that the Patriarch called the lords body a vestiment and apparell,Gen. 46. and that now we be entred to speak of godly sacraments, tell me truely of what thing thinkest thou this holy meat to be a tokē and figure of Christes diuinity, or of his body and bloud?
Eran.
It is cleare that it is the figure of those thinges, whereof it beareth the name.
Orth.
Meanest thou of his body and bloud?
Eran.
Euen so I meane
Orth.
Thou hast spoken as one that loueth the truth, for the Lord when he tooke the token or signe, he sayd not. This is my diuinity, but This is my body, & this is my bloud. And in an other place.Ioh. 6. The bread which I wil giuegive is my flesh, whiche I will geue for the life of the world.
Eran.
These things be true, for they be Gods words.
All these writeth Theodoretus in hi first Dialogue.'Dial. 20
And in the second he writeth the same in effect (& yet in some thing more playnly) agaynst such heretiques, as affirmed that after Christes resurrection & ascention, his humanity was changed from the very nature of man & turned into his diuinity. Agaynst whom thus he writeth.
Orth.
Corruption, healeth sicknes, and death, be accedents, for they goe & come.
Era.
It is meet they be so called.
Orth.
Mens bodies after their resurrection be delyuered from corruption, death, & mortalitie, and yet they lose not theyr proper nature.
Eran.
Truth it is.'
Orth.
The body of Christ therfore did rise quite cleane from all corruption & death,Christes body glorified hath his forme bignes and quantitie. and is impassible, immortall, glorified with the glory of God, & is honored of the powers of heauen, and it is a body, & hath the same bignes that it had before.
Era.
Thy saying seeme true & according to reason, but after he was ascended vp into heauen, I thinke thou wilt not say, that his body was not tourned into the nature of his godhead.
Orth.
I would not so say for the persuation of mans reason: nor I am not so arrogant and presumptious, to affirme any thing which scripture passeth ouer in silence. But I hauehave heard S. Paule cry,Act. 17. that God hath ordayned a day when he will iudge all the world in iustice, by that man which he appoynted before, performing his promise to all men, and raysing him from death. I hauehave learned also of the holy angels,Act. 1. that he will come a…ter that fashion, as his disciples saw him goe to heauen. But they saw a nature of a certayn bignesse, not a nature which had no bignes. I heard furthermore the lord say, You shall see the sonne of man come in the cloudes of heauen.Math. 24. And I know that eueryevery thing that men see, hath a certayne bignes. For that nature that hath no bignes, can not be seene. Moreouer to sit in the throne of glory, and to sette the Lambes vponupon his right hand, and the goates vponupon his left hand, signifieth a thing that hath quantitie and bygnes.
Hitherto hauehave I rehersed Theodoretus wordes, and shortly after Eranistes sayth.
Eran.
We must tourne eueryevery stone (as the prouerb sayth) to seeke out the truth, but specially when godly matters be propounded.
Orth.
Tell me than the sacramentall signes which be offered to God by his priestes, wherof be they signes, sayst thou?
Eran.
Of the Lordes body and bloud.
Orth.
Of a very body? or not of a very body?
Eran.
Of a very body.
Orth.
Very well, for an image must be made after a true paterne: for Paynters follow nature, and paynt the images of such thinges, as we see with our ;eyes.
Eran.
Truth it is.
Orth.
If therfore the godly sacramentes represent a true body, than is the Lordes body yet still a body, not conuerted into the nature of his Godhead, but replenished with Goddes glory.
Eran.
It cometh in good tyme, that thou makest mention of Gods sacramentes, for by the same I shall proue, that Christes body is tourned into an other nature. Answer therfore vntounto my questions.
Orth.
I shall answer.
Eran.
What callest thou that which is offered, before the inuocation of the priest?
Orth.
We must not speake playnly, for it is like that some be present, which hauehave not professed Christ.
Eran.
Answer couertly.
Orth.
It is a nourishment made of sedes that be like.
Eran.
Than how call we the other signe?
Orth.
It is also a common name that signifieth a kind of drinke.
Eran.
But how doest thou call them after the sanctification.
Orth.
The body of Christ, and the bloud of Christ.
Eran.
And doest thou beleue that thou art made partaker of Christes body and bloud?
Orth.
I beleue so.
Eran.
Therfore as the tokens of Gods body and bloud, be other thinges before the priestes, inuocation, but after the inuocation they be chaunged, and be other things: so also the body of Christ after his assumption, is chaunged into his deuine substaunce.
Ortho.
Thou art taken with thine owne nette. For the sacramentall signes go not from their owne nature after the sanctification, but continue in their former substance, forme and figure, and may be seene and touched as well as before, yet in our mindes we do consider, what they be made, and do repute and esteme them and hauehave them in reuerence, according to the same thinges that they be taken for. Therfore cō pare their images to the paterne, and thou shalt see them like. For figure must be like to the thing it selfe. For Christes body hath his former fashion, figure, and bignesse, and to speake at one word, the same substance of his body: but after his resurrection, it was made immortall, and of such power, that no corruption nor death could come vntounto it: and it was exalted vntounto that dignity, that it was sette at the right hand of the father, and honoured of all creatures, as the body of him that is the Lord of nature.
Eran.
But the sacramentall token chaungeth his former name, for it is no more called as it was before, but is called Christes body. Therfore must his body after his ascention be called God, and not a body.
Orth.
Thou semest to me ignorant: for it is not called his body onelyonly but also the bread of lyfe, as the Lord called it. So the body of Christ we call a godly body, a body that giueth life, Gods body, the Lordes body, our masters body, name ning that it is not a common body, as other mennes bodies be, but that it is the body of our Lord Iesu Christ, both God and man.
This hauehave I rehersed of the great clerke and holy byshop Theodoretus, whom some of the Papists perceiuing to make so playnly agaynst them, hauehave defamed, saying that he was infected with the errour of Nestorius.
Here the Papistes shewe their old accustomed nature and condition which is euen in a manifest matter, rather to lie without shame, than to giuegive place vntounto the truth, and confesse their owne errour. And although his aduersaries falsely bruted such a fame agaynst him, whan he was yet a liue, neuerthelesse he was purged therof by the whole Councell of Calcedon, about a leuen hundred yeares agoe.
And furthermore in his booke which he wrote agaynst heresies, he specially condemneth Nestorius by name. And also all his iij. bookes of his dialogues before rehersed, he wrot chiefly agaynst Nestorius, and was neuer here in noted of error this thousand yeare, but hath euer bene reputed and taken for an holy Byshop, a great learned man, and a graue author, vntill now at this present tyme, whan the Papistes hauehave nothing to answer vntounto him, they begin in excusing of them selues, to defame him.
Thus much hauehave I spoken for Theodoretus, which I pray thee be not weary to read (good reader) but often and with delectation, deliberation, and good aduertisement to read. For it conteineth playnly and breefly the true instruction of a Christian man, concerning the matter, which in this booke we treate vponupon.
First, that our sauiour Christ in his last supper, whan he gaue bread and wine to his apostles (saying: This is my body, This is my bloud) it was bread which he called his body and wine mixed in the cup which he called his bloud: so that he changed the names of the bread and wine (which were the misteries, sacramentes, fignes, figures, and tokens of Christes flesh and bloud, and called them by the names of the thinges, which they did represent and signifie, that is to say, the bread he called by the name of his very flesh, and the wine by the name of his bloud.
Second, that although the names of bread and wine were changed after sanctification, yet neuertheles the thinges them selues remayned the selfe same, that they were before the sanctification, that is to say, the same bread and wine in nature, substance, form, and fashion.
The thyrd, seing that the substance of the bread and wine be not changed, why be then their names changed, and the bread called Christes flesh, and the wine his bloud? Theodoretus sheweth, that the cause therof was this, that we should not hauehave so much respect to the bread and wyne (which we see with our eyes, and tast with our mouthes) as we should hauehave to Christ him selfe, in whome we beleue with our hartes, and fele and tast him by our faith, and with whose flesh and bloud (by his grace) we beleue that we be spiritually fedde and norished.
These thinges we ought to remember the reuolue in our myndes, and to lift vp our hartes from the bread and wine vntounto Christ that sitteth aboue. And bicause we should so do, therfore after the consecration they be no more called bread and wine, but the body and bloud of Christ.
The forth, It is in these sacramentes of bread and wine, as it is in the very body of Christ. For as the body of Christ before his resurrection and after is al one in nature, substance, bignes, forme and fashion, and yet it is not called as an other common body, but with addition, for the dignitie of his exaltation, it is called a heauenly, a godly, an immortall, and the lordes body: so likewise the bread and wine before the consecration and after, is all one in nature, substance, bignes, form, and fashion, and yet it is not called as other common bread, but for the dignitie, wherunto it is taken, it is called with addition, Heauenly bread, The bread of life, and the bread of thankes giueng.
The fift, that no man ought to be so arrogant and presumptuous to affirme for a certayne truth in religion any thing, which is not spoken of in holy scripture. And this is spoken to the great and vtter condemnation of the Papistes, which make and vnmake newe articles of our fayth from tyme to tyme, at their pleasure, without any scripture at all, yea quite and clean contrary to scripture. And yet wyll they hauehave all men bound to beleue what soeuer they inuent, vponupon perill of damnation and euerlasting fyre.
And yet wil they constrayne with fyre and fagot all men to consent (contrary to the manifest wordes of God) to these their errours in this matter of the holy sacrament of Christes body and bloud.
First that there remayneth no bread nor wine after the consecration, but that Christes flesh and bloud is made of them.
Second, that Christes body is really, corporally, substantially, sensibly, and naturally in the bread and wine.
Thirdly, that wicked persons do eat and drincke Christes very body and bloud.
Fourthly, that priestes offer Christ eueryevery day, and make of him a new sacrifice propiciatory for sinne.
Thus for shortnes of tyme I doe make an end of Theodoretus, with other old auncient writers, which do most clearly affirme, that to eat Christes body and to drink his bloud, be figuratiue speaches. And so be these sentenses likewise, which Christ spake at his supper: This is my body. This is my bloud.