Answer unto a Crafy and Sophistical Cavillation, Debate · Confutation of book 3 · Section 27 – Section 28
Caunterbury.
YOu hauehave so perused these differences, that you hauehave made more difference then euer was before: for where before there were no more but two partes, the true catholick doctrine, and the papisticall doctrine, now come you in with your new fantasticall inuentions, agreeing with neither part, but to make a song of three partes,Thre partes made of two. you hauehave deuised a new voluntary descant, so farre out of tune, that it agreeth neither with the tenor, nor mean, but maketh such a shamefull iarre, that godly eares abhorre to heare it. For you hauehave taught such a doctrine, as neuer was written before this time, aud vttered therein so many vntruthes, and so many strange sayinges, that eueryevery indifferent Reader may easely discern, that the true christen faith in this matter is not to be sought at your handes. And yet in your own writinges appeareth some thing to confirme the truth, quite against your own enterprise, which maketh me hauehave some hope, that after my answere heard, we shall in the principall matter no more striue for the child, seeing that your selfe hauehave confessed that Christ is but after a spirituall maner present with vsus. And there is good hope that God shall prosper this child to liue many yeares, seeing that now I trust you will help to foster and nourish it vp as well as I.
And yet if diuisyon may shew a stepmother, then be not you the true mother of the child,The true mother of the childe. which in the Sacrament make so many diuisions. For you deuide the substances of bread and wine, from their proper accidences: the substances also of Christes flesh and bloud, from their own accidences, and Christes very flesh Sacramentally from his very bloud, although you ioyne them again per concomitantiam, and you deuide the sacrament so, that the priest receaueth both the Sacrament of Christs body, and of his bloud: and the lay people (as you call them) receiue no more but the sacrament of his body, as though the sacrament of his bloud, and of our redemption, pertayned onelyonly to the priestes. And the cause of our eternall life aud saluation you deuide in such sort betweene Christ and the priest, that you attribute the beginning therof to the sacrifice of Christ vponupon the crosse, and the continuance therof you attribute to the sacrifice of the priest in the masse, as you doe write plainly in your last booke. Oh wicked Stepmothers, that so deuide Christ, his Sacramentes, and his people.
After the differences followeth the 3.4.5. and 6. chapters of my book which you binde as it were all together in one fardel, and cast them quite away, by the figure which you call reiection, not answering one word to any Scripture, or olde wryter, which I hauehave there alleadged for the defence of the truth. But because the Reader may see the matter plainly before his eyes, I shall heare rehearse my words againe, and ioyne thereto your answere. My wordes be these.
Now to returne to the principall matter, lest it might be thought a new deuise of vsus, that Christ, as concerning his body and his humaine nature, is in heauen and not in earth: therefore by Gods grace it shalbe euidently proued, that this is no new deuised matter, but that it was euer the olde fayth of the catholicke Church, vntill the Papistes inuented a new fayth, that Christ really, corporally,Cap. 3. Christ corporally is in heauen & not in earth. naturally, and sensibly is here still with vsus in earth, shutte vp in a boxe or within the compasse of bread and wine.
This needeth no better nor stronger proofe, then that which the olde authors bryng for the same, that is to say, the generall profession of all Christen people in the common creede,The proofe thereof by our profession in our commune Creede. wherein as concerning Christes humanitye, they be taught to beleeue after this sort: That he was conceiued by the holy Ghost, borne of the virgin Mary: That he suffered vnderunder Pontius Pilate: Was crucified, dead aud buried: that he decended into hel and rose againe the third day That he ascended into heauen; and sitteth at the right hand of his almighty Father: And from thence shal come to iudge the quick and dead.
This hath beene euer the catholick faith of Christen people, that Christ (as concerning his body and his manhode) is in heauen, and shall there continue vntill he come down at the last iudgement.
And for as much as the Creede maketh so expresse mention of the Article of his ascention, and departing hence from vsus, if it had been an other article of our faith, that his body taryeth also here with vsus in earth, surely in this place of the Creede was so vrgent an occasion geuen to make some mention thereof, that doubtlesse it would not hauehave been passed ouer in our Creede with silence. For if Christ (as concerning his humanity) be both here, and gone hence, and both those two be articles of our faith, when mention was made of the one in the Creede, it was necessary to make mention of the other, least by professing the one we should be disswaded from beleeuing the other, being so contrary the one to the other.
To this article of our Creed accordeth holy Scripture,Cap. 4. The profe herof by the scripture. Ioh. 16. Mat. 16. Mat. 24. and all the old auncyent doctors of Christes church, for Christ him self sayd, I leaue the world, and goe to my father. And also he sayd: you shall euer hauehave poore folkes with you, but you shall not euer hauehave me with you. And he gaue warning of this error before hand, saying that the time would come, when many deceauers should be in the world, and say: Here is Christ, and there is Christ, but beleue them not, said Christ. And S. Mark wryteth in the last chapter of his gospell,Mar. vl. that the Lord Iesus was taken vp into heauen, and sitteth at the right hand of his father. And S. Paul exhorteth all men to seeke for thinges that be aboue in heauen, where Christ (saith he) sitteth at the right hand of God his father.Colos. 3. Also he saith, that we hauehave such a bishoppe,Heb. 8. that sitteth in heauen at the right hand of the throne of Gods maiesty. And that he hauing offered one sacrifice for sinnes, sitteth continually at the right hand of God,Heb. 10. vntill his enemies be put vnderunder his feete as a footstoole. And hereunto consent all the olde doctors of the church.
First Origen vponupon Mathew reasoneth this matter,Cap. 5. how Christ may be called a stranger that is departed into another countrey, seeing that he is with vsus alway vntounto the worldes end,The proofe thereof by auncient authors. aud is among all them that be gathered together in his name, and also in the middest of them that know him not, and thus he reasoneth. If he be here among vsus still, how can he be gone hence as a straunger departed into another countrey? wherunto he answereth,Origen. in Nath. ho. 33. that Christ is both God and man, hauing in him two natures. And as a man he is not with vsus vntounto the worldes end, nor is present with all his faihtfull that be gathered together in his name. But his diuine power and spirite is euer with vsus. Paule (saith he) was absent from the Corinthes in his body, when he was present with thē in his spirite: So is Christ (sayth he) gone hence, and absent in his humanitie, which in his diuine nature is eueryevery where. And in this saying (sayth Origen) we diuide not his humanitie `(for S. Iohn writeth, that no spirite that deuideth Iesus can be of God) but we reserue to both his natures, their own properties.
In these wordes Origen, hath playnly declared his mynd, that Christes body is not both present here with vsus, and also gone hence and estranged from vsus. For that were to make two natures of one body, and to deuide the body of Iesus, forasmuch as one nature can not at one tyme be both with vsus, and absēt from vsus. And therefore sayth Origen: that the presence must be vnderstanded of his diuinitie, and the absence of his humanitie.
And according hereunto S. Austine writeth thus in a pistle Ad dardanum, August. ad Dar. dan. epist. 57.Doubt not but Iesus Christ as concerning the nature of his manhood is now there, from whence he shall come. And remember well and beleeue the profession of a christian man, that he rose frō death ascended into heauen, sitteth at the right hand of his father, and from that place and none other, shall he come to iudge the quicke and the dead. And he shall come (as the Aungels sayd) as he was seene go into heauen, that is to say, in the same forme and substance, vntounto the which he gaue immortallytie, but chaunged not nature. After this forme (sayth he, meaning his mans nature, we may not thynke that he is eueryevery wher. For we must beware, that we doe not so stablish his diuinity, that we take away the veritie of his body. These be S. Augustines playne wordes. And by and by after he addeth these wordes. The Lord Iesus as God, is eueryevery where, and as man is in heauen. And finally he concludeth this matter in these few wordes. Doubt not but our Lord Iesus Christ is eueryevery where as God, and as a dweller he is in man that is the temple of God, and he is in a certain place in heauen, because of the measure of a very body.
And agayne S. Augustin) writeth vponupon the Gospel of S. Iohn.In Iohan. Tract. 30. Our sauiour Iesus Christ (sayth S. Augustine) is aboue, but yet his truth is here. His body wherein he arose is in one place, but his truth is spred eueryevery where.
And in an other place of the same booke S. Augustine expounding these wordes of Christ. (You shall euer hauehave poore men with you,Tracta. 50. but me you shall not euer hauehave) saith: that Christ spake these words of the presence of his body. For (saith he) as concerning his diuine maiesty, as concerning his prouidence as concerning his infallible and inuisible grace, these words be fulfilled which he spake: I am with you vntounto the worldes ende. But as concerning the fleshe which he tooke in his carnation, as concerning that which was borne of the virgine: as concerning that which was apprehended by the Iewes, and crucified vponupon a tree, and taken downe frō the crosse, lapped in linnen clothes and buried, and rose againe, and appered after his resurrection, as concerning that flesh, he sayd: You shall not euer hauehave me with you. Wherefore senig that as concerning his flesh, he was conuersant with his disciples forty dayes, and they accompanying, seeing, and not following him, he went vp into heauen, both he is not here (for he sitteth at the right hand of his father) and yet he is here, for he departed not hence as concerning the presence of his diuine Maiesty. As concerning the presence of his Maiesty, we hauehave Christ euer with vsus, but as concerning the presence of his flesh he said truely to his disciples, ye shall not euer hauehave me with you. For as concerning the presence of his flesh, the church had Christ but a few dayes, yet now it holdeth him fast by faith, though it see him not with eyes. All these be S. Augustines wordes.
Also in an other booke, intitled to S. Augustine, is written thus:De essentia diuinitatis. We must beleeue and confesse, that the Sonne of God (as concerning his diuinitie) is inuisible, without a body, immortall, and in circumscriptible: but as concerning his humanitie, we ought to beleeue and confesse that he is visible, hath a body, and it contayned in a certayn place, and hath truely all the members of a man.
Of these wordes of S. Augustine, it is most cleere that the profession of the catholick faith is, that Christ (as concerning his bodely substance and nature of man) is in heauen, and not present here with vsus in earth. For the nature and property of a very body, is to be in one place, and to occupy one place, and not to be eueryevery where, or in many places at one time. And though the body of Christ (after his resurrectiō and ascention) was made immortall, yet this nature was not taken away, for then (as S. Augustine saith) it were no very body. And further S. August. sheweth both the maner & fourme how Christ is here present with vsus in earth, & how he is absent, saying that he is present by his diuine nature and maiesty, by his prouidence, & by grace: But by his humain nature and very body, he is absent from this world, and present in heauen.
Cyrillus likewise vponupon the gospell of S. Iohn,Cyrillus in Iohan. li. 6 cap. 14. agreeth fully with S. Augustin saying: Although Christ tooke away from hence the presence of his body, yet in Maiestie of hys Godhead he is euer here, as he promised to his disciples at his departing: saying: I am with you euer vntounto the worldes end.
And in an other place of the same booke,Libro. 6. cap. 11. saynct Cyrill sayth thus: Christian people must beleeue, that although Christ be absent from vsus, as concerning hys body, yet by his power he gouerneth vsus, and all thinges, and is present with all them that louelove hym. Therfore he sayd: Truely, truely I say vntounto you, where so euer there be two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the middes of them. For lyke as when he was conuersant here in earth as a man, yet then he filled heauen, and did not leaue the company of angelles: euē so beyng now in heauen with hys flesh, yet he filleth the earth, and is in them that louelove hym. And it is to be marked, that although Christ should go away onelyonly as concerning hys flesh, (for he is euer present in the power of hys diuinitie:) yet for a little time he sayd he would be with hys disciples. These be the wordes of Saynct Cyrill.
Sainct Ambrose also sayth,Ambrosius in Lucam. li. 12. ca. 24. that we must not seeke Christ vponupon earth, nor in earth, but in heauen, where he sitteth at the right hand of hys father.
And likewise saynct Gregory writeth thus.Gregorius in Ho. Paschatis. Christ (sayth he) is not here by the presence of hys flesh, and yet he is absent no where by the presence of hys Maiesty.
What subtilty thinkest thou (good reader) can the Papistes now imagin, to defend their pernitious errour, that Christ his humayn nature is bodyly here in earth, in the consecrated bread and wine: seeing that all the olde Churche of Christ beleued the contrary, and all the old authors wrote the contrary?
For they all affirmed and beleued, that Christ being but one person, hath neuerthelesse in him two natures or substances, that is to sav, the nature of his Godhead, and the nature of his manhood. They saye furthermore, that Christ is both gone hence from vsus vntounto heauen, and is also here with vsus in earth, but not in his humaine nature, (as the Papistes would hauehave vsus to beleue) but the olde authors say, that he is in heauen, as concerning his manhode, and neuertheles both here and there, and eueryevery where, as concerning his Godhead. For although his diuinitie be such, that it is infinite, without measure, compasse, or place, so that as concerning that nature, he is circumscribed with no place, but is eueryevery where, and filleth all the worlde: yet as concerning his humaine nature, he hath measure, compasse, and place, so that when he was here vponupon earth, he was not at the same tyme in heauen: and now that he is ascended into heauen, as concerning that nature, he hath now forsaken the earth, and is onelyonly in heauen. For one nature that is circūscribed, cōpassed, & measured, can not be in diuers places at one time. That is the fayth of the old Catholick church,Chap. 6. One body can not be in diuers places at one tyme. as appeareth, as well by the authors before rehearsed, as by these that hereafter followeth.
Ad Dardanum.Sainct Augustine speaking, that a body must needes be in some place, saith: that yf it be not within the compasse of a place, it is no where. And yf it be no where, than it is not. And Sainct Cirill considering the proper nature of a very body sayd:Cyrillus de Trin. li. 2. that yf the nature of the Godhead were a body, it must needes be in a place, and hauehave quantitie, greatnesse, and circumscription.
If than the nature of the Godhead must needes be circumscribed, if it were a body, much more must the nature of Christes manhood be circumscribed, and contayned within the compasse of a certaine place.
Didimus also in his booke De spiritu sancto, Didymus de spiritu sancto. li. 1. c. 1.(which Sainct Hierom did translate) proueth, that the holy Ghost is very God, because he is in many places at one tyme, which no creature can be. For (sayth he) all creatures visible, and inuisible, be circumscribed and inuironed either within one place (as corporall and visible thinges be) or within the proprietie of their owne substance, (as aungels and inuisible creatures be) so that no Angell (sayth he) can be at one tyme in two places. And forasmuch as the holy ghost is in many men at one tyme, therefore (sayth he) the holy ghost must needes be God.
The same affirmeth Sainct Basil,Basilius de spiritu sancto ca. 22 That the Angell which was with Cornelius, was not at the same tyme with Phillip, nor the Angell which spake to Zachary in the altare, was not the same tyme in his proper place in heauē. But the holy Ghost was at one tyme in Abacuck, and in Daniell in Babilon, and with Ieremy in prison, and with Ezechiell in Chober, whereby he proueth, that the holy ghost is God.
Wherefore the Papistes (which say, that the body of Christ is in an infinite number of places at one tyme) doo make his body to be God, and so confound the two natures of Christ, attributing to his humain nature, that thing, which belōgeth onelyonly to his diuinitie: which is a most heinous, & detestable heresie.
Agaynst whome wryteth Fulgētius in this wise, speaking of the distinction, and diuersitie of the two natures in Christ.
Fulgentius ad Trasimundum Regem. li. 2.One and the selfe same Christ (sayth he) of mankinde was made a man, compassed in a place, who of his father is God, without measure or place. One and the selfe same person, as concerning his mans substaunce, was not in heauen, whan he was in earth, and for sooke the earth when he ascended into heauen: but as concerning his godly substaunce, (which is aboue all measure) he neyther left heauen when he came from heauen, nor he left not the earth, when he ascended into heauen: which may be knowen by the most certain word of Christ himself, who to shew the placing of his humanitie, said to his disciples: I ascend vp to my father, and your father, to my God, and your God. Also when he had sayd of Lazarus that he was dead, he added, saying: I am glad for your sakes, that you may beleeue, for I was not there. But to shew the vnmeasurable compasse of his diuinitie, he sayd to his disciples: behold I am with you alwayes vntounto the worldes end. Now how did he goe vp into heauen, but because he is a very man, conteined within a place? Or how is he present with faithful people but because he is very God, being without measure?
Of these words of Fulgentius it is declared most certainly, that Christ is not here with vsus in earth but by his Godhead, and that his humanitie is in heauen onelyonly, and absent from vsus.
Yet the same is more plainly shewed (if more plainly can be spoken) by Vigilius a bishoppe and an holy martyr.Vigilius contra Eutycchē lib. 1. He writeth thus against the heretick Eutyches, which denyed the humanitie of Christ, holding opinion that he was only God, and not man. Whose error Vigilius confuting, proueth that Christ had in him two natures ioyned together in one person, the nature of his Godhead, and the nature of his manhoode. Thus he wryteth.
Christ sayd to his disciples: if you loued me you would be glad,Iohn. 14. for I go vntounto my father. And again he sayd: It is expedient for you that I go, for if I goe not,Iohn. 16. the comforter shall not come vntounto you. And yet surely the eternall word of God, the vertue of God, the wisdome of God, was euer with his Father, and in his Father, yea euen at the same time when he was with vsus, aud in vsus. For whē he did mercifully dwell in this world, he left not his habitation in heauen, for he is eueryevery where wholl with his Father, equall in diuinitie, whom no place can containe, for the Sonne filleth all thinges, and there is no place that lacketh the presence of his diuinitie. From whence then, and whether did he say he would goe? Or how did he say, that he went to his Father, from whom doubtles he neuer departed? But that to goe to his Father, and from vsus, was to take from this world that nature which he receaued of vsus. Thou seest therfore that it was the propertie of that nature to be taken away and goe from vsus, which in the end of the world shall be rendered again to vsus, as the angels witnessed, saying: This Iesus which is taken from you,Actu. 1. shall come agayn like as you saw him going vp into heauen. For looke vponupon the miracle, looke vponupon the mistery of both the natnres: the Sonne of God (as cōcerning his humanitie) went frō vsus, as concerning his diuinity, he said vntounto vsus: Behold, I am with you all the dayes vntounto the worldes end.
Thus farre hauehave I rehearsed the wordes of Vigilius,Math. vl. and by and by he concludeth thus. He is with vsus, and not with vsus. For those whom he left, and went from them, as concerning his humanitie, those he left not, nor forsooke them not, as touching his diuinitie. For as touching the forme of a seruaunt (which he tooke away from vsus into heauen) he is absent from vsus, but by the forme of God (which goeth not from vsus) he is present with vsus in earth, and neuertheles, both present and absent, he is all one Christ.
Hetherto you hauehave heard Vigilius speake, that Christ (as concerning his bodely presence and the nature of his manhode) is gone from vsus, taken from vsus, is gone vp into heauē, is not with vsus, hath left vsus, hath forsaken vsus. But as concerning the other nature of his Deitie, he is still with vsus, so that he is both with vsus, and not with vsus, with vsus in the nature of his Deitye, and not with vsus in the nature of his humanity. And yet more cleerely doth the same Vigilius declare the same thing in another place,Contra Euticē lib. 4. saying.
If the word and the flesh were both of one nature, seeyng that the word is eueryevery where, why is not the flesh then eueryevery where? For when it was in earth, then verely it was not in heauen: and now when it is in heauen, it is not surely in earth. And it is so sure that it is not in earth, that as concerning it, we loke for him to come from heauen, whom as concerning his eternall word: we beleue to be with vsus in earth. Therefore by your doctrine (saith Vigilius vntounto Eutiches, who defended that the diuinity and humanity in Christ was but one nature) either the word is conteyned in a place with his flesh: or els the flesh is eueryevery where with the word. For one nature cannot receiue in it selfe two diuers and contrary thinges. But these two thinges be diuers and farre vnlike, that is to say, to be conteyned in a place, aud to be eueryevery where. Therfore in as much as the word is eueryevery where, and the flesh is not eueryevery where, it appeareth plainly, that one Christ himselfe hath in him two natures. And that by his diuine nature he is eueryevery where, and by his humain nature he is contayned in a place, that he is created, and hath no beginning, that he is subiect to death, and cannot dy. Wherof one he hath by the nature of his word (wherby he is God) and the other he hath hy the nature of his flesh, wherby the same God is man also. Therfore one sonne of God, the selfe same was made the sonne of man, and he hath a beginning by the nature of his flesh, and no beginning by the nature of his Godhead. He is created by the nature of his flesh, and not created by the nature of his Godhead. He is comprehended in a place by the nature of his flesh, and not comprehended in a place by the nature of his Godhead. He is inferior to angels in the nature of his flesh, and is equall to his Father in the nature of his Godhead. He dyed by the nature of his flesh, and dyed not by the nature of his Godhead. This is the faith and catholick confession, which the Apostles taught, the Martirs did corroborate, and faithfull people keepe vntounto this day.
Al these be the sayinges of Vigilius, who according to al the other authors before rehearsed, and to the faith and catholick confession of the Apostles, Martyrs, & all faithfull people vntounto his time) saith, that as concerning Christs humanitie, when he was here on earth, he was not in heauen, and now when he is in heauen, he is not in earth. for one nature cannot be both conteined in a place in heauen, and be also here in earth at one time. And for as much as Christ is here with vsus in earth, and also is conteined in a place in heauen, he proueth therby, that Christ hath two natures in him, the nature of a man, wherby he is gone from vsus, and ascended into heauen, and the nature of his Godhead, wherby he is here with vsus in earth. So that it is not one nature that is here with vsus, and that is gone from vsus, that is ascended into heauen and there conteined, and that is permanent here with vsus in earth. Wherfore the papists (which now of late yeares hauehave made a new faith, that Christes naturall body is really and naturally present both with vsus both here in earth, & sitteth at the right hand of his Father in heauen) doe erre in two very horrible heresies.
The one, that they confound his two natures, his Godhead and his Manhode attributing vntounto his humanitie, that thing which appertaineth onelyonly to his diuinity, that is to say, to be in heauē, earth, and in many places at one time. The other is, that they deuide and seperate his humain nature or his body, making of one body of Christ, two bodies and two natures, one which is in heauen, visible and palpaple, hauing all members and proportions of a most perfect naturall man: and an other which they say is in earth here with vsus, in eueryevery bread and wine that is consecrated, hauing no distinction, forme, nor proportion of members, which contrarieties and diuersities (as this holy Martyr Vigilius saith) cannot be together in one nature.
Winchester.
These differences end in the xlviii. leafe in the second columne. I entend now to touch the further matter of the booke with the manner of handlyng of it, and where an euident vntruth is, there to ioyne an issue, and where sleight and craft is, there to note it in the whole.
The matter of the book, from thēce vntounto the lvi. leafe, touching the being of Christ in heauen and not in earth, is out of purpose superfluous. The article of our Créed that Christ ascended to heauen, and sitteth on the right hand of his father, hath béene and is most constantly beleeued of true Christian men, which the true fayth of Christes reall presence in the Sacrament doth not touch or empayre. Nor Christ being whole God & man in the Sacrament, is therby eyther out of heauen, or to be said conuersant in earth, because the conuersation is not earthly, but spirituall and godly,Christ ascentiō the end of his conuersation in earth. sleight. being the ascention of Christ, the end of his cōuersation in earth, and therefore al that reasoning of the author, is clearely voyde, to trauayle to proue that is not denyed, onelyonly for a sleyght to make it seeme as though it were denyed.