Pope Joan, Dialogue (1 of 3)

Pope Joan · Dialogue (1 of 3)

p. 1POPE IOANE. A DIALOGVE BETWEENE A PROTESTANT AND a Papiſt, manifeſtly prouing, that a woman called Ioane, was Pope of Rome.

PROTESTANT.

WEll met, and welcome home Sir. What new booke hauehave you brought vsus downe from London this Mart?

PAP.

Oh, I hauehave an excellent booke, which diſcourſeth at large about Pope Ioane, whoſe Popedom you caſt in the Catholiks teeth ſo oftē.

PROT.

What language is it in, I pray you? French? or Latine? or Engliſh? and who made it?

PAP.

It wasaaAn. 1602. Poſſeuin in errat. & praetermiſ. 1. to. quae habētur ad finem To. 3 Apparat. ſac. firſt written in French, but I hauehave it in Latine. The Author of it is one Florimondus Raemondus.

PROT.

Florimondus Raemondus? what is he, that I neuer heard of him before? Is he, and his booke, of anie credite?

PAP.

He himſelfe is reputedbbVir, cùm primis illuſtris ac pius, & doctrina inſignis. Baronius Annal. Tom. 10. ad An. 853. Nu 62. a very famous man for life and learning, ſo that, at this preſent he is one of the French Kings Councell at Burdeux; and as for his booke, it is of wonderfull eſteeme.

PROT.

With whom I pray you?

PAP.

Euen with Cardinall Baronius. ForccPraecaeteris commendandus fama nobilis Florimūdus: Baronius loco citato. he holds it the worthieſt diſcourſe that euer was made of that argument; He profeſſeth, that he could hauehave found in his heart to hauehave inſerted it into his Annales, but that it is ſomewhat too large. For by it as the Cardinall furtherddSic confecit mōſtrum iſtud, vt nouat…es pudeat, quae ſcripſerunt vel ſomniaſſe. Ibi d. noteth, he hath ſo confounded all the packe of Heretickes, who heretofore vpbraided the Catholickes with it, that now they are aſhamed of that which they hauehave ſaid,

PROT.

But hath any man elſe the like opinion of it?

p. 2PAP.

Yea marry, Poſſeuin is of the ſame minde. ForeeProrſus confodit haereticos q…i commentū illud ſpar…erunt in vulgus, vt amphus ea de fabula hiſcere non audeant. In Apparatu ſac. verbo, Florimondus. Poſſeuin ſaith, that he hath killed the heretickes outright. That ſince the publiſhing of that booke the heretickes are whiſht, they dare talke no more of a Pope Ioane.

PROT.

This is much: but hauehave you read it?

PAP.

Read it? Yea I hauehave read it againe and againe. Beſides, I hauehave compared it with that which is written of the ſame argument, by Buchingerus in Germany: by Charanza in Spaine: by Onuphrius, and Bellarmine, and Baronius, in Italy: by Turrian, and Bernartius in Belgia: by Pontacus in Aquitania: by Genebrard, and Papyrius Maſſonus, in France: by Sanders, by Cope, by Harding, by Father Parſons, and others of our owne countrey.

PROT.

And what ſay you now (after the reading of all theſe) to the ſtorie of Pope Ioane, tell me in good earneſt, and diſſemble not.

PAP.

I ſay, the very truth is, that the whole ſtorie of Pope Ioane, isffOnuph. Annot. in Plat. in vita Ioh. 8.John 8 a fable; aggHarding in his anſwer to Iuels Apology. fond and vaine fable, ahhN. D. part. 2. c. 5. Nu. 21. pag. 391. of the 3. Conuerſ. meere fable, an iiIdem nu. 36. pag. 403.hereticall fable, akkIbid. ridiculous fiction: and ſollIdem nu. 21. pag. 391. knowne to the learneder ſort of Proteſtants among you, but that you will not leaue to delude the world with it, for lacke of other matter. YeammIdem. Nu. 36. pag. 403. I ſay further, there are ſo many improbabilities, and morall impoſſibilities in this tale, as no man of any meane iudgement, diſcretion, or common ſenſe, will giuegive credite thereto: but will eaſily ſee the vanitie thereof. And in a word,nnImpudentiſſimè ficta, ſtul. tiſſimè credita Bernartius de vtilitate legendae hiſt. lib. 2. p. 105. in marg. I ſay, he was a knaue that deuiſed it, and he is foole who beleeueth it.

PROT.

Now this is excellent in good truth: I ſee there is mettall in you. But what reaſon hauehave you on your ſide, that you are ſo peremptorie? Did it not run for currant without controlment till within theſe fortie yeares, or thereabout: to wit, till the year 1566, that Onuphrius the Frier began to bogle at it? Was not Onuphrius the firſt, that euer by reaſon ſought to diſcredit the report of it? And yet doth not euenooMultos & magni nominis viros hiſtoriam hanc ſuſcipere, cam quoque vulgo verum exiſtimari Loco ſupra citato. he confeſſe, that many men of worth, as well as of ordinarie ſort, beleeued it for a truth? Is it not to be found in Marianus Scotus, in Sigebert, in Gotefridus Viterbienſis, in Iohannes de Pariſiis, in Martinus Polonus, in Petrarch, in Boccace, p. 3in Ramulſus Ceſtrenſis, in Iohannes Lucidus, in Alphonſus è Carthagena, in Theodoricus de Niem, in Chalcocondilas, in Platina, in Palmerius, in Nauclerus, in Sabellicus, in Trithemius, in Volateran, in Bergomenſis, in Schedel, in Laziardus, in Fulgoſus, in Textor, in Gaſſarus, in Mantuan, in Crantius, in Charanza, and appBatthol. Caſſa. 2. part. Catal. gloriae mundi, nona Conſideratio. Ioh. Turrecremat. in Summa lib. 4. part. 2. cap. 20. Carolus Molinaeus. cōment. in Parifienſ. cō ſuetud. Tit. 1. nu. 26. Caelius Rhodigin. Antiquarum lect. lib. 8. cap. 1.Titus 1 number moe of your owne faction, and of your owne friends? of which ſome were Grecians, ſome Italians, ſome Spaniards, ſome French, ſome Germains, ſome Polonians, ſome Scots, ſome Engliſh; and yet neuer a one of them a Lutheran. Yea do we not find it in ſome of your ſtories ſet downe in pictures? And is not ſo much to be gathered by that image of hers, which is ſet vp amongſt the reſt of the images of the Popes in the renowned church of Siena in Italie, and is to be ſeene there at this day: which the Biſhop of that place would not ſuffer to be defaced at the laſt repairing of that Church, though your Ieſuites did earneſtly requeſt him to deface it? Was there not made of old (for feare of ſuch like after-claps) a ſtoole of eaſement, on which they were ſet at their creation, for proofe of their humanitie? Was there not a marble image ſet vp as a monumēt thereof in that place where ſhe miſcaried? to wit, in one of the chiefeſt ſtreets in Rome? which monument was to be ſeene likewiſe within theſe few yeares, euen in Pius the 5. his time. And is it not written by men among your ſelues, that your Popes, when they go in proceſſion, refuſe to go through that ſtreete, in deteſtation of that fact, and go further about? How ſay you, is it not euen thus?

PAP.

It is written (InnPhilip. Bergom. in Supplem. chron. lib. 11. ad a…. 858. confeſſe) that our Popes, in deteſtation of that fact, whē they go in proceſſion to the Lateran Church, refuſe to go through that ſtreete: but they who write ſo, miſtake the matter. For the true reaſon why they turne out of that ſtreet, which is the nearer way, is, for that, that ſtreete is anguſta & anfractuoſa, a narrow ſtreete, and ſuch a one as windes this way and that way: and in that reſpect, vnfit for ſo great atraine, as ordinarily accompanies the Pope to paſſe orderly through: as ooLoco ſupra citato.Onuphrius, andppLib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. Bellarmine, andqqFabula Ioannae, c. 21. p. 184. Florimondus, hauehave obſerued.

p. 4PROT.

Say you ſo? why, but if it be true which Philippus Bergomenſis hath ſtoried, this obſeruation is falſe: for Eo omiſſo (^c ſaith he) ſpeaking of the Popes turning out of that place of the ſtreete,rrIn Supplement Chron. ad An. 858. wherein Dame Ioane was deliuered) declina ad diuerticula, vicoſ que & ſic, loco deteſtabili poſtergato, reintrantes, iter perficiunt quod coeperunt: that is, Leauing that way, they turne into by-lanes and by-ſtreets; & as ſoone as they are beyond that deteſtable place, they turne into their way againe, and ſo go on in their proceſſion. For if vponupon their leauing that ſtreete, they enter into by-lanes and by-ſtreets, and as ſoone as they are paſt that ominous place turne in againe; the reaſon why they leaue that ſtreete cannot be, for that it is narrow, and winding in and out. For no queſtion, but thoſe by-lanes, are as narrow: and by their turning out, and returning into the ſame way againe, they winde as often in and out, as if they went along through the ſame ſtreete, though it were very crooked. But howſoeuer, ſhift it among you: for it ſufficeth me, that you cannot deny, but that which I told you concerning this point, is written by men of your owne religion: eſpecially ſeeingſſDe vitis pont. in vita Ioh. 8.John 8 Platina, who knew Rome well enough, and was deſirous to couer the Popes nakedneſſe herein, as much as he could with any honeſtie, confeſſeth, that this is probable enough. What hauehave you to ſay to the reſt of my ſpeech?

PAP.

Much. For whereas you ſay Onuphrius was the firſt who by reaſon ſought to diſcredit the report of it: that is not ſo. Iohannes de Columna a good writer of Chronicles, long before Onuphrius, hath likewiſe vtterly reiected the vanitie of this fable as D. ttCōfutat. of the Apologie, part. 4. fol. 166.Harding noteth.

PRO.

Iohannes de Columna his hiſtorie is extant in Lattine in the Vniuerſitie library at Oxford: and in French, in New Colledge library. But there is not one word, good, or bad, for, or againſt Pope Ioane in it. If he reiected it, he reiected it by ſilence.

PAP.

ButuuAnnaliū Boiorum lib. 4. Iohannes Auentinus, reiected it in plaine words. And he wrote a good many yeares before Onuphrius.

PROT.

Iohannes Auentinus (I grant) reiects it as a fable p. 5in one word, but he giues no reaſon of his reiecting of it. Beſides,xxIoh. Auentinus author parum probatae fider: ſaith Bell Append. ad …o. de ſum. Pont cap. 10. Bellarmine caſts him off as a writer of ſmall credit: andyyInfectā haereſis ſcabre beſtiam pietate & doctrina omnino deſertam. Baron Annal To. 10. ad 996. Nu. 54. Baronius brands him, not meerely for a skabd ſheepe, but for an heretical skabby beaſt, deſtitute both of honeſtie and learning: and diuers of your Popes hauehavezzIn Indicibus lib. prohibitorum. cried downe his hiſtory, as vnworthy of reading; wherefore I ſee no reaſon, that his reaſon-leſſe reiecting of it, doth any way preiudice the truth of it. What hauehave you elſe to ſay?

PAP.

Firſt I would know who told you there was ſuch a marble image in one of the ſtreets at Rome?

PRO.

aaLib de priuilegijs & iuribus Imperij.Theodoricus de Niem, who was Secretary to one of your Popes, told me that: for Adhuc vetus ſtatua marmorea illic poſitafiguratiuè monſtrat hoc factum, ſaith Theodoricus de Niem: that is, VntoUnto this day an old marble image erected in that place ſheweth the matter vnderunder a figure.

PAP.

IndeedebbFlorimond. lib citato. cap. 21. nu. 2. I cannot deny but that in former ages many hauehave ſaid ſo, and (to confeſſe a truth) I my ſelfe hauehave read as much in Antoninus Archbiſhop of Florence, and in Peter Mexia. But verily that image reſembled no ſuch thing. For neither was it like a woman lying in child-bed, nor was the boy which was grauen by her, like a child in the ſwadling clouts, but like one of ſome yeares.

PRO.

This your exception is to no purpoſe; for that age was a learne-leſſe and a witleſſe age. And therefore perhaps had no more skill in grauing, caruing, and painting, then they had,ccAelian de varia hiſt. lib. 10. who were driuen to ſet either vnderunder, or aboue their pictures, Hoc eſt bos: illudequus: hoc arbor: that men might know what kinde of creature it was that they had painted. QueſtionleſſeddEpiſt. 120. Aeneas Syluius, pointing to a better time then that of Pope Ioanes, condemnes the painters and caruers thereof for notorious bunglers, ſaying thus; Si ducē torum, trecentorúmue annorum, aut ſculpturas intu…beris, aut picturas: inuenies non hominum, ſed monſtrorum portentorum que facies: that is, If thou obſerue the grauen or painted images which were made two or three hundred yeares agone, thou ſhalt find, that they are faced more like monſters, and hobgoblins, then men. Now if they were ſuch, what maruell, p. 6though intending to ingraue a woman trauelling, or rather newly deliuered of a child, they did it but vntowardly? But what I pray you doth that Image repreſent, if it repreſent not Pope Ioane?

PAP.

zzLib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24.Cardinall Bellarmine ſeemes to like of their opinion, who gueſſe that ſome heatheniſh prieſt, who was about to offer ſacrifice, and had his man before him, is denoted thereby. But I am rather ofaaCap. citat. nu. 6 Florimondus minde, who thinkes it was an idole, euen an image of ſome of the gods of the heathen.

PROT.

If it had repreſented a ſacrificing prieſt, and his man: the man ſhould hauehave bene grauen behind, and not before his maiſter. For the ſeruant followeth his maiſter,bb1. Sam. 14. 12. 13.1 Sam 14:121 Sam 14:13 as the young man that bare Ionathans armour, followed Ionathan, wherefore you hauehave reaſon to leaue Bellarmine in this. But why do you incline to Florimondus? doth he giuegive you any reaſon for this opinion? or alledgeth any Author of his opinion?

PAP.

Yes,ccCum Onuphrio Panuino antiquitatis perſcrutatore diligentiſſimo vetus aliquod idolum exiſtimaui. Florim. ibid. he profeſſeth, that he followeth Onuphrius therein, who was a moſt diligent Antiquary.

PROT.

But he lies in that. For Onuphrius ſpeakes not one word good or bad of this marble Image. He paſſeth it ouer in ſilence, as though no man had euer ſpoken of it.

PAP.

I maruell if that be ſo. But yet I reſt perſwaded vponupon Florimondus next reaſon, that that Image reſembled not Pope Ioane. For if the ingrauer had purpoſed to expreſſe ſuch a matter, and to continue thereby the memory thereof to the worlds end, he would hauehave ſet ſomeddInſcriptionem praefixiſſet. pag. 188. inſcription ouer it; for ſo do all men who erect monuments for remembrances.

PROT.

That is not ſo, for we reade ineeLib. 7. hiſt. cap. 14. Euſebius, that the ffMat. 9. 21.Matt 9:21woman who was cured by our Sauiour Chriſt of her iſſue of blood, &c. erected (after the cuſtome of the heathen) an image of him, no doubt for remēbrance ſake. But we reade of no inſcription written vponupon it. In the booke ofggCap. 4. 7. 8. Ioſua we reade, that the Iſraelites were commanded to lay 12. ſtones vponupon an heape, as a memoriall vntounto their children for euer. And yet it is plaine by the circumſtances they ſet nothing thereon in writing. When you paint S. Peter, you paint him p. 7with keyes in his hand, and ſet no inſcription ouer his head, nor vnderunder his feet, as**Obſerat. in Annal. tom. 1 ad an. 57. apud Poſſeuin. in Apparat ſac. verbo. Caeſar Baron. Baronius confeſſeth. Wherfore for any thing I yet heare, it is moſt probable that it was ſet vp for a monument of Pope Ioane.

PAP.

Enioy your conceit. ButhhSixtus quintus hunc vicum rectiorem duci curauit, quo factum eſt vt imago illa ſublata ſit. Florim. cap. 21. p. 189. I can tell you one thing. That image is now remoued out of that place. For Sixtus Quintus, that great builder and mender of high wayes, when he made that ſtreete ſtraight, wherein that image was, was forced to remoue that Image.

PROT.

Belike, that image would hauehave bene ſome blemiſh vntounto the ſtreete, if it had remained: and that made him moue it.

PAP.

Yea marry would it.

PROT.

Now well fare his heart that was ſo carefull to ridde the ſtreets of ſuch a comberſome monument. But who told you that Sixtus Quintus remoued it vpō that occaſion?

PAP.

llLoco citato.Florimondus.

PROT.

Was it he? Then know him for a lier whileſt you liue: for it was Pius Quintus, and not Sixtus Quintus, who remoued it. And Pius Quintus remoued it, and caſt it into Tiber, not for that it diſgraced the ſtreete: but vt memoriam hiſtoriae illius aboleret: that he might extinguiſh the memory of that ſhameful act. And this is witneſſed not only by ſome trauellers, who were at that time in Rome; but bynnHiſtoria Ieſuitici ordinis, cap. 10. de Ieſoitarum patre & matre. Elias Haſſenmuller, one (once) of your firie order of Ieſuits. Your Florimondus will not deſerue (I feare) halfe the commendation you hauehave giuen him.

PAP.

I doubt not but he wil acquit himſelf like a man, of whatſoever you can ſay againſt him. But whence had you that of the ſtoole of eaſemēt, I pray you? forooLib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap 24. in Bellarmin I read, that de ſede ad explorandum ſexū nulla vſquam mentio. Of a ſtoole of eaſement, to trie the Popes ſexe, there is no where any mention: and in ppFabuloſum, & ab imperito vulgo fictum. Annotat. in Plat. in vit. Ioh. 8.John 8Onuphrius, that it is but a meere toy, and an idle conceit of idle people.

PROT.

That of the ſtoole of eaſement, is recorded by Philippus Bergomenſis, qqNobiliter doctus, hiſtoriographus celeberrimus. Trith. de Script. eccleſ. verbo. Iacobus Bergomenſis.a man of great worth in his time as Trithemius witneſſeth. For vponupon mention made of Pope p. 8Ioanes ſtorie, Ad euitandos ſimiles errores ſtatutum fuit (rrIn Supplement. Chron, ad An. 858. ſaith he) ne quis de caetero in B. Petri collocaretur ſede, priuſquam per perforatam ſedem futuri Pontificis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono Cardinale attrectarentur. That is, For auoiding like error in future times, it was decreed: that no man ſhould be held for Pope, till the yongeſt Cardinall Deacon had found by triall, while he ſate vponupon a ſtoole of eaſement, that he was a man. which is likewiſe teſtified byſſDe rebus Turcicis, l. 6. pag 98. Laonicus Chalchondylas. For vponupon relation of that ſtorie, he goes on thus: Quapropter ne decipiantur iterum, ſed rem cognoſcant, neque ambigant: Pontificis creati virilia tangunt, & qui tangit, acclamat: Mas nobis Dominus eſt: that is, Leſt they ſhould be deceiued againe, they make proofe by feeling; and he that feeleth makes it knowne by crying out; We hauehave a man Pope. And you may find as much in a later Papiſt, who within theſe few yeares, writ a booke of the Harmonie of Romiſh magiſtrates, and in it this.

PAP.

You ſay true indeed. For I now rememberttCap. 18. p. 159. In ridiculorum authorum grege anumerandus eſt. Florimondus confeſſeth ſo much, yet he reproueth the Author for writing ſo. But let vsus go on: for I long to heare of whom you heard that ſuch a chaire was to be ſeene, in the Popes pallace, within theſe few yeares.

PRO.

I heard that ofuuAencid 9. lib. 1. Sabellicus. For writing of the ſame matter, Spectatur adhuc in Pontificia domo marmorea ſella (ſaith he) circa medium inanis, qua nonus Pontifex continuò ab eius creatione reſedit, vt ſedentis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono attrectentur. That is, There is to be ſeene at this day in the Popes pallace, a chaire of marble, wherein the new Pope preſently vponupon his election is ſet downe, that as he ſits, the loweſt Deacon may make triall of his humanitie by touching. And you may find as much in William Brewin, who liued in the yeare 1470. for in**Wilhelmus Brewin in codice manuſcripto de 7. Eccleſijs principalibus v…bis Romae. Capella Saluatoris (ſaith he) ſunt duae vel plures cathedrae de lapide marmoreo & cubio, cum for aminibus in ijs ſculptis, ſuper quas cathedras, vt audiui ibidem, eſt probatio Papae, vtrùm ſit maſculus, an non. That is, In the chappell of our Sauiour there are two or three marble chaires with holes in them, wherein, as I heard there, they make proofe whether p. 9the Pope be a man or no.

PAP.

xxCap. 20. pag. 176.Florimondus acknowledgeth there is yet ſuch a chaire, wherein the Popeſits after his election. But that he ſits therein to ſuch an end as you ſpeake, that he vtterly denies.

PROT.

And what is his reaſon?

PAP.

yyIbid p. 181.Becauſe he ſittes therein not in a corner, but in the great Church of S. Iohn Laterā, whither all the world (almoſt) comes to ſee him; where he is attended by the whole Colledge of Cardinals, and whereat there are many Embaſſadours of kings and Princes: for a cloſer place were fitter for ſuch a purpoſe. They might more conueniently hauehave made triall of his humanitie in the conclaue where he was choſen.

PROT.

And ſo they did, it ſeemes: for preſently vponupon their electing of him before they proclaimed him Pope, they ſet him in a chaire in their conclaue, as you may reade in the booke of holy ceremonies dedicated to Leo the 10. Whereby you may ſee how idlelyaaLib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. Bellarmine talkes, who taking vponupon him to cleare the point, neuer ſpeakes of his ſitting in the chaire in the conclaue, but onelyonly of his ſitting in certaine other chaires at S. Iohn Laterans, as though he had bene chaired onelyonly in publike, and not in priuate: and that he himſelf had ſaid ſufficiently to the point in queſtion, by prouing that in publike there was no ſuch concluſiō tried with the Pope: whereas the concluſion was tried in ſecret. But can you tell me what the end is why the Pope ſits in ſuch a chaire in publike?

PAP.

Marry to the end that thereby he may be put in mind, that he is not God, but man: in as much as he ſtands in need of a cloſe ſtoole as well as others: for ſo ſaithbbCap. 20. p. 177. and 188. Florimondus.

PROT.

I promiſe you and he had need to be put in mind thereof. For thoughccN. D. in his Warn-word to Sir Fr. Haſtings Encoūter 1. cap. 2. fol. 30. ſome Papiſts ſhamefully denie it, there hauehave bene popiſh clawbackes,ddCap. Cum inter. Extrau. Ioh. 22. impreſſ. Pariſ. 1513. & Lugduni. 1555 who in plaine words hauehave termed the Pope, aseeIoh. 20 28.John 20:28 S. Thomas termed Chriſt: their Lord and God: and there are ſtillffPlanè ſupremum in terris numen. Stapleton princip. fid. doctrin praefat ad Greg. 13. who giuegive him ſuch titles as are due to God, and aſcribe like power to him and God. But me thinks, they ſhould not need to hauehave ſet him in ſuch a chaire to ſuch a purpoſe; for his owne neceſſitie would hauehave driuen p. 10him to ſet himſelfe thereon ordinarily eueryevery day: and his chamber-pot would hauehave ſerued to put him in minde of his humanitie ſufficiently. For Antigonus the elder knew by that, that he was man and not a God, asggPart. 2. Moral. lib. de Iſide & Oſi…de. Plutarch writeth. Beſides, me thinkes they ſhould not hauehave intended ſuch a myſterie by ſuch a ceremonie, becauſe they ſet him therein before he was in his pontificalibus: for till he be mitred, till he be crowned, till he hauehave receiued the keyes, whereby is denoted his power to bind and looſe: and a rod, whereby is denoted his power to puniſh the obſtinate: me thinkes there ſhould be no feare of forgetting himſelfe. For till ſuch ceremonies be performed, he is not in his ruffe. Againe, had it not bene better thinke you, if they had aimed at anie ſuch marke, to hauehave cauſed a boy to come eueryevery morning vntounto the Popes chamber dore (after the example ofhhStobaeus ſerm. 19. ex Aeliano. Philip king of Macedonia) who ſhould hauehave whoopt him out of his bed, and bid him remember, that he was mortall?

PAP.

If you like not Florimondus coniecture touching that ceremonie, what ſay you toiiLib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. Bellarmines, which is: That he is ſet on ſuch a ſtoole, to ſignifie how he is raiſed from baſe eſtate, to ſupreme honour?

PROT.

I ſay Bellarmines coniecture is as improbable, and fond as Florimondus. For your Popes, ſince Pope Ioanes dayes, hauehave bene choſen for the moſt part out of the number of your Cardinals. And your Cardinals eſtate is not ſo baſe, as that he who is aduanced from that vntounto the Papacie, can be truely ſaid, to be taken in any ſort from off a cloſe ſtoole. For they are generallykkCardinalatus celſitudo ac ſplendor, dignitati regiae comparatur Sixtus. 5. in conſtitut. 5. in princip. & ſect. Praeterea. Ioh. Franciſcus Leo. in Theſauro fori Eccleſiaſtici, part. 1. cap. 2. nu. 1. Princes fellowes. Yea ſome of them (you cannot but know) hauehave not bene aſhamed to prefixe their owne names before their owne kings, vſing theſe words: I and my king. Wherefore vnleſſe you can render me ſome better reaſon, why your Popes are ſet on ſuch a ſeate, I ſhall remaine perſwaded that in former times it was for proofe of their humanitie, vponupon the accident aforeſaid.

PAP.

Enioy your opinion for me. But where reade you that there was ſuch an Image in the Church of Siena, which the Ieſuites would hauehave defaced, but that the Biſhop of the place p. 11would not ſuffer them?

PROT.

That I hauehave heard by many trauellers, and read in maiſter Bel; both in his booke ofmmLib. 2 cap. 6 Concluſ. 3. pag. 80 Motiues concerning the Romiſh religion, and in hisnnPart. 3. cap. 2. p. 191. Suruey of Poperie: wherevnto neuer a Papiſt of you all dare anſwer.

PAP.

Yes we dare, though we do not. But I can tel you newes. ooFlorim cap. 22. p. 194.That Image of Pope Ioane, which was ſet vp in the Church of Siena, is caſt downe by the commandement of Clement the 8. by the meanes of Caeſar Baronius, at the requeſt of Florimondus. Caeſar Baronius hath certified Florimondus ſo much by a letter, and for ioy,ppPag. 195. Florimondus hath publiſhed it vntounto the world.

PROT.

What? is that Image caſt downe too? Florimondus might do well, to make requeſt to the preſent Pope, that thoſe bookes which write of Pope Ioane may be burned; in hope, that the preſent Pope will as readily burne the bookes, as Clement the 8. threw downe that Image, and Pius Quintus the other. And ſo in time to come, when all euidences are imbezeled, and all monuments defaced, and made out of the way, it will be a plaine caſe there was neuer any Pope Ioane.

PAP.

Oh! this angers you I perceiue. And yet why ſhould you be angrie at the throwing downe of this? For ſuppoſe it had ſtood ſtill, is there any ſence that becauſe of ſuch an Image, we ſhould be bound the rather to beleeue there was ſuch a Pope? qqSi ea quae ab artificibus manu finguntur, credamus eſſe vera, interdum veteris & noui Teſtamenti hiſtoriam peruertemus, &c. Florim p. 193.I can tell you if we beleeue Painters and caruers we may ſoone marre all: for in Saint Andrewes Church at Burdeux, one of the excellenteſt Churches in all France, our Sauiour Chriſt is deſcribed aſcending vp to heauen vponupon the backe of a flying Eagle: which ſtands not well with the Scripture.

PROT.

Thats true, if we beleeue your painters and caruers, we ſhall ſoone marre all indeed. For we find the Trinity painted by you, ſomtimes in the likenes of a man with three faces: ſometimes in the likeneſſe of a man, with two heads, hauing a doue between thē; both which faſhions of painting the Trinitie, are monſtrous inrrLib. 2. de Imag. cap 8. Bellarmines opinion. We find our Sauiour Chriſt painted with long haire, as though he p. 12had bene a Nazarite by vow: which conceit is controlled byſſFor Nazarites muſt drinke no wine. Numb. 6. 3. yet our Sauior did, Mat. 11. 19. & 26. 29.Num 6:3Matt 11:19Matt 26:29 Scripture. We find him ſet on a weathercocke vponupon the top of the Temple of Ieruſalem, as though that Temple had had a ſpire ſteeple like ours:ttTho. de Truxillo. Ord. praedic. Domin. 1. Quadrag. conc. 1. which is neither ſo, nor ſo. We finde the virgine Marie treading on the Serpents head, which theuuGen. 3.Gen 3 Scriptures foretold, that Chriſt himſelfe ſhould do. We finde her ſet out in a gowne of wrought gold: whereas (no queſtion) ſhe was meanely apparelled: and with a paire of Beades in her hand, whereas of a thouſand yeares after Chriſt there wereyyTeſte Polydoro Virgilio de Inuent. rerum, lib. 5. cap. 9 no Beads in the world. In like ſort we findzzHieron. ab Oleaſtro in Exod. 34. & Aug. Steuchus in recognit. vet. Teſt. ad Hebraicam verit. in Exod. 34.Exod 34 Moſes painted with two hornes;aaIanſen. Concord. Euang. cap. 13. Iohn Baptiſt, in a raw Camels skin;bbIn nouis Biblijs Sixti Quinti & Clem 8. yet he writ it 90 aetatis annum excedens, vt docet Baron. Annal To 1 ad An. 99. nu. 2. Iohn the Euangeliſt, like a beardles boy, when he writ his Goſpel; c Marie Magdelen in a looſe gowne;ddScultingus Confeſſio Hieronymiana. Polyd. Virg. de Inuent. rerum, lib. 4. cap. 9. S. Ierome in his Cardinals robes: all which is falſe as God is true. Beſides, your painters recōmend vntounto vsus a Saint on horſebacke, whom they call George. And an other Saint on foote, as big as a Giant, whom they call Chriſtopher: and a ſhe Saint, broken vponupon a where, whom they call Catharin: and a fourth drawne in peeces with horſes, whom they call Hippolitus: whereas in all antiquity,eeFor proofe whereof ſee D. Rayn. de Ro. Eccleſiae Idololat. lib 1. c. 5. nu. 21. &c. there is no mention of any ſuch Saints. So that you neuer ſpoke a truer word in your life, then this, that if we beleeue painters and caruers, we ſhall ſoone marre all. But what if booke proofe concurre with painting and caruing? may we not then without feare of marring all, giuegive credit to painters and caruers? yourffLib. 2. de Ro. Pont. cap. 11. Bellarmin is of opinion that there can be no error in ſubſtance, as long as beſides booke-proofe, there be monuments of ſtone, or of braſſe, for the proofe of any ancient report. And if he ſpeake the words of truth, the truth is with vsus; for beſides monuments of ſtone, we hauehave the teſtimonies of many writers.

PAP.

But not ſo many as you brag of, I beleeue. And beſides, ggSi huius commenti authores ſpectes, nihil illis vilius. Florim. c. 31. nu. 1.thoſe you hauehave are but paltrie writers.

PROT.

That ſhall be ſeene by a more particular view of them. Wherefore firſt, what ſay you to Charanza, the laſt of them whom I named, who was a ah diuinity reader among p. 13you, & afterwardsiiPoſſeuinus Apparat. ſacro. verbo. Barth. Caranza. Archbiſhop of Toledo in Spaine? was he a paltrie writer? or hath he not this ſtorie, in your opinion?

PAP.

I thinke he hath it not. ForkkCap. 31. nu. 6. Florimondus names Charanza, among them who diſproued the ſtory of Pope Ioane, before he himſelfe fell to diſproue it.

PROT.

Doth he ſo? doubtleſſe then he belies Charanza. For this is all thatllIn Sum. Conc. P. 370. edit. Paril 1564. Charanza writes of that argument. lohannes 8. Papa. 105. ſub Petro, ſedit An. 2. menſ. 1. dies 4. De hoc ferunt, quod malis artibus pontificatum adeptus eſt, quoniam cum eſſet foemina, ſexum mentitus eſt; & poſtea à ſeruo compreſſa, doloribus circūnenta, mortua eſt. Which in engliſh is this. Iohn the 8. the 105. Pope from S. Peter, ſate 2. yeares 1. monethmonth, and 4. daies. They report of this perſon that he got the Papacy by euil meanes, becauſe he feigned himſelf to be a man, wheras in truth he was a woman; who being afterwards begot with child by one of her ſeruants, fell in trauell and died thereon. And this is not diſprouing of it. Is it trow you?

PAP.

No verily if he ſay no more of it, but perhaps he ſaith more, and you conceale it from me?

PROT.

Not a word I warrant you. Wherefore let vsus go on, and obſerue, who, and what manner of men the reſt are, who beare witnes with vsus in this caſe. What ſay you to Krā tius? hath he not this ſtory? or is he but a paltry writer?

PAP.

Krantius is commended bymmChronograph. lib. 2. Pontanus, for a famous hiſtoriographer. And ſeeing he wrote before Luthers dayes there is no reaſon (nnKrantius, homo Germanus, & qui ante Lutheranas contentiones ſcripſit: proinde nec odio nec amore ducebatur. lib. 2. de effectu Sacram. cap. 18. as Bellarmine notes vponupon another occaſion) that he ſhould be ſuſpected to write any thing for louelove or hatred. But hath he this ſtorie?

PROT.

Yea.ooMetrop. lib. 2. edit. Colon. 1574. & Francofurt. 1590. For theſe are his owne words. Iohannes Anglicus, ex Moguntia mulier, mentita ſexum, quum acutiſſimo ingenio & promptiſſima lingua doctiſſmè loqueretur, adeò inſe conuertit omnium animos, vt pontificatum adipiſceretur, vno famulo ſexum eius cognoſcente, à quo compreſſa pregnans efficitur: & fertur peperiſſe apud Coloſſeum An. 2. necdum expleto, in partu moritur: which in effect ſounds thus: Iohn Engliſh, a woman of Mentz diſſembled her ſexe, and being of a quick wit and glib tongue; & one that could ſpeake very ſcholerlike, p. 14ſhe won the hearts of all men, that ſhe got the Papacie, no man knowing anie other but that ſhe was a man, ſaue one of her ſeruants, who afterwards got her with child. They ſay ſhe was deliuered neare the Coloſſes, before ſhe had ſitten full two years. Thus Krantius.

PAP.

And hath Mantuan the ſame, whom you cited next before Krantius?

PROT.

Yea Mantuan, who is commended byppDe Script. Eccleſiaſticis. verbo. Baptiſta Mantuanus. Trithemius for a great Diuine, an excellent Philoſopher, and a famous Poet, the onelyonly man in all Italie in his time: Mantuan, qqPhilip. Beroaldus Hieron. Carmelitae, ad initium To. 2. operum Mantuani.at whom the people pointed as he went in the ſtreets, and ſaid, This is he; which was wont to be held a matter of extraordinarie credite. Mantuan, of whom Picus Mirandula, Pontanus, Beroaldus, Baronius, Poſſeuin, and diuerſe others, rrPoſſeuin. in Apparatu ſacro, Tom. 1. verbo. Baptiſta.giuegive honorable teſtimonie. This Mantuan hath this ſtorie. For, falling to deſcribe hell, and what maner of perſons were in hell,

Hic (ſſTom. 3. lib. 3. Alphonſi. fol. 44. edit. Francof. 1573. ſaith he) pendebat adhuc ſexum mentita virilem

Foemina, cui triplici Phrygiam diademate mitram

Extollebat apex, & Pontificalis adulter.

Which in effect ſounds thus much▪ Here hangd the woman who went like a man, and came to the Popedome. And here hangd he that committed adulterie with her.

PAP

You ſay right: for I remember now thatttCap. 22. nu. 3. Florimondus confeſſeth the tale is in Mantuan. But Mantuan deſerues no credit in this: for he writes worſe of her then euer any did before him: anduuStabuli pōtificij praefectum eum illa, laqueo in collum inſerto ſuſpenſum, commentatur. Flor…m. Ibid. & cap. 23. nu. 6. feignes, very ridiculouſly, that her horſekeeper who got her with child, and ſhe were both hangd together.

PROT.

Mantuan talkes of no horſekeeper of hers, but in generall of one who committed adultery with her, nor of any hanging, ſaue of their hanging in hell, which is likely enough to be true. Your Florimondus can lay his finger vponupon nothing, but he grimes it. He can comment vponupon no mans words, but he wreſts them. There is not a word in Mantuan more (concerning her) then that which is comprehended in the three verſes cited.

PAP.

At better leaſure I will examine your words more narrowly. p. 15In the meane time, what hath Achilles Gaſſarus for your purpoſe?

PROT.

Achilles Gaſſarus, in his Epitome of all Hiſtories and Chronicles, collected out of the beſt hiſtoriographers, xxAchilles. Gaſſarus in Epit. hiſt &c. impreſ. Antuerp. in aedibus Stelſij. 1536.hath theſe words: Iohannes octauus, natione Anglicus, officio Papa, ſexu tamen foemina, ſedit annos 2. & menſ. 6. turpiſſimè. Which is: Iohn the eight, by countrey of England, by calling a Pope, yet by ſexe a woman, ſate ſhamefully as Pope two yeares and ſixe moneths. Is not this plaine?

PAP.

Yes: but what find you in Rauiſius Textor?

PROT.

Scitum eſt ex Chronicis, & à maioribus ſcriptū (ſaith yyIn Officina Tit. Mulieres virilem habitum mentitae.Rauiſius Textor) Iohannem Anglicum ab Ephebis ſexum virilem ſimulaſſe, & tandem fato neſcio quo, aut fortuna certè volente, ad Pontificatum perueniſſe, in quo annos circiter duos ſederit, poſt Leonem 4. neque priùs innotuerit facti veritas, quàm à quodam ex domeſticis impregnata, tandem emiſerit partum. That is, It is a thing well knowne by the Chronicles, and written by our anceſtors, that Iohn Engliſh from her youth vp caried her ſelfe as though ſhe had bene a man, and at length, by I know not what deſtinie, certainly by verie great lucke, ſhe became Pope, & ſate about two yeares, after Leo the fourth, and no bodie knew her coſinage till ſhe was with child by one of her meniall ſeruants, and deliuered thereof.

PAP.

What find you in Fulgoſus?

PROT.

Marrie I find inaaDe Dict. factiſ que memorabilibus. lib. 8. c. 3 Tit. de foeminis quae doctrinâ excel. Fulgoſus, bbSo ſaith Allen cap. 5. of his defence of the Seminaries, and Poſſeuin. Apparat. ſacr. verbo. Baptiſta Fulgoſuswho was a noble and learned man, and ſometimes Duke of Genua, that Iohn the eight was found out to be a woman.

PAP.

And what in Laziardus?

PRO.

Iohānes Anglicus in cathedra Petri ſedit annis duobus, menſibus ſeptem, diebus quatuor, ſaithccEpitom. hiſtor. vniuerſalis. cap. 111. Laziardus. Hic, vt fertur, foemina fuit, &c. that is, Iohn Engliſh ſate in S. Peters chaire two yeares, ſeuen moneths, and fower dayes. This, as the report goeth, was a woman, &c.

PAP.

And who was the next you cited before this?

PROT.

Hartmannus Schedel, a Doctor of phyſicke, yet not ignorant of holy Scriptures, a verie wittie and well ſpoken man, asddLib. de Scriptoribus Eccleſiaſticis. Trithemius witneſſeth.

p. 16PAP.

Oh: Schedel (I confeſſe)eeIn Chron. aetatum mundi, aetate 6. reports this.ffSchedel de hac Ioanna verba facit, ſed ita ieiunè, ita exiliter, ita incertè, vt de ea re dubitaſſe videatur. Florim. lib. cit, cap. 4. nu. 3. But he reports it ſo coldly, ſo fearefully, ſo faintly, that a man may well ſee he doubted of it. For he confeſſeth, that he knew not whether it was ſo or no; and therefore fathers it vponupon one Martin, I know not whom.

PROT.

Fie, that you ſhould ſay ſo. Doth he not vſe the very words without change, which Platina vſeth in relating the ſame, whereof we ſhall hauehave occaſion to ſpeake ere we part? and againſt which you can take no exceptions? And doth he not (to imprint the matter deeper into the readers memorie) ſet her picture downe with a child in her armes?

PAP.

Yes indeed I cannot deny that. But to be plaine with you, I care not what he ſaith of it. For asggLoco citato. Florimondus noteth,**Ex impura Huſſitarum familia, &c. he was one of the ſtinking broode of the Huſſites, and liued in Nurinberge, what time Nurinberge was infected with Huſſes hereſie. And therefore no maruell, if to curry fauour with them, he touched by the way the ſuppoſed Popedome of Ioane the woman.

PROT.

See how you lauiſh. This Hartmannus Schedel borne in Nurinberge, washhEgo Hartmā nus Schedel, doctor Patauinus, &c. circa An. 1440. fol. 252 b. ſtudent in Padua, where he was created Doctor of Phiſicke by the great Mathiolus. And he was ſo farre from Huſſes minde, that in the ſameiiCirca. An. 1410. fol. 238. a. booke he hath one whole chapter intituled, De haereſi Huſſitarum, & eius origine. That is, Of Huſſes hereſie, and of the originall thereof. Wherein he followes Aeneas Syluius ſtep by ſtep, kkHiſtoria Bohemica, cap. 35.who ſpeakes ſpitefully and bitterly againſt Huſſe and all his followers. It ſeemes Florimondus of whom you learned this, is one of ſome ſtinking broode of lyers.

PAP.

Well, who is next?

PROT.

Iacobus Bergomenſis, a man well ſeene in Scripture, and an excellent humanitian, wittie, eloquent, of good conuerſation, & a moſt famous Hiſtoriographer, asllLib. de Eccleſiaſticis ſcriptoribus. Trithemius reports of him. This Iacobus Bergomenſis (I ſay) writes thus of this point:mmSupplement. chron. lib. 11. ad An. 858 impreſſ Venetijs, An. 1486. Iohannes 7. Papa, natione Anglicus, poſt Leonem Pontificem Pontifex factus, ſedit ann. 2. menſ. 5. Hunc tradunt fuiſſe foeminam, quae adoleſcens admodum, ex Anglia, p. 17Athenas …um quodam doctiſſimo aniaſio ſuo profecta, ibidem bonarum artium praeceptores audiendo, tantum profecit, vt Romam veniens paucos admodum etiam inſacris Literis haberet pares. Ea quippe legendo, disputando, docendo, orando, tantam beneuolentiam & gratiam ſibi comparauit, vt mortuo Leone praedicto Pontifice, in eiuſdem locum, vt multi affirmant, omnium conſenſu Pontifex crearetur: verùm poſtea à familiari compreſſa, grauidatur, & Papa exiſtens peperit. Nam ex Vaticano ad Later anenſem Baſilicam aliquando ad Litanias profecta, inter Coloſſeum & S. Clementem, praeter ſpem doloribus circumuenta, ſine obſtetrice aliqua publicè peperit, & eò loci mortua ibidem, ſine vllo honore cum foetu miſera ſepulta eſt. Adcuius deteſtandum ſpurcitiem, & nominis continuandum memoriam, in hodiernum vſus que , ſummi Pontifices rogationem cumpopulo & clero ſacram agentes, cum locum partus, medio eius in itinere poſitum, abominentur, eo omiſſo, declinant ad diuerticula vicoſ que : & ſic loco deteſtabili poſtergato, reintrantes iter perficiunt quod coeperunt. Et ad euitandos ſimiles errores ſtatutum fuit, ne quis de caetero in B. Petri collocaretur ſede, priuſquam per perforatam ſedem futuri Pontificis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono Cardinale attrectarentur. That is: Iohn the ſeuenth, by countrey Engliſh, was created Pope next after Leo, and ſate two yeares and fiue moneths. They ſay this was a woman, and that ſhe went verie yong out of England to Athens with a certaine great clerke who was in louelove with her: and that there by hearing of good profeſſors, ſhe profited ſo much, that when ſhe came to Rome ſhe had few like her in Diuinitie. Whereupon, by her reading, diſputing, teaching, and praying, ſhe got her ſelfe ſo much fauour, that vponupon Leo his death ſhe was choſen Pope into his roome (as manie men ſay) by common conſent. But ſee the lucke of it; a while after ſhe was got with child by one of her acquaintance, and deliuered thereof in the time of her Papacie. For going vponupon a time from the Vatican to S. Iohn Laterans in proceſſion, betweene the Coloſſes and S. Clements, ere euer ſhe was aware, ſhe fell in trauell, and was deliuered in the high ſtreete without the helpe of anie midwife. But ſhe died preſently, and was buried without anie ſolemnitie p. 18in the ſame place, with her litle one by her. Now in hatred of her filthie dealing, and for continuing of the memorie of ſo leud a part, the Popes to this day when they go in proceſſion, in reſpect of their diſlike of that place of her trauell, which was in the midſt of her way, forſaking it, do turne into by-lanes and by-ſtreets, till they hauehave left that on their backes; and then returning into the ſame ſtreete againe, they go forward with their proceſſion. And for auoiding of like miſchiefe in time to come, it was decreed: That none ſhould be conſecrated Pope, before the yongeſt Cardinall Deacon had tried by touching (whileſt the partie to be conſecrated ſate on a cloſe ſtoole) that he was a man. Thus Bergomenſis.

PAP.

Is not this he that wrote Supplementum Chronicorum, in the yeare 1503?

PROT.

No. But this is he who wrote Supplementū Chronicorum in the yeare 1486. asnnLib. de Scriptoribus Eccleſiaſticis Trithemius witneſſeth, and the booke it ſelf conuinceth. YourooLib. citato pag. 37. Florimondus was deceiued, who ſeeing (perhaps) that it was printed in the yeare 1503, thought it was written the yeare 1503.

PAP.

That error is not ſo great, though an error. But if it be he that I meane, I ſay withppIbid. Florimondus, That his reporting of it is an argument of his ignorance, and ſo let him go.

PROT.

So you may caſt off all the reſt if you be diſpoſed, and make ſhort worke of our conference, for you may ſay of eueryevery one: His reporting of it, is an argument of his ignorance. WhenqqAnthropologia. lib. 22. pag. 503. edit. Baſil. An. 1559. Ʋolateran an hiſtoriographer of good note, ſhall be brought in ſaying: Iohannes. 7. Anglicus, quem diſſimulato viri habitu dicunt foeminam alioquin doctiſſimam fuiſſe, deprehenſam que in via apud S. Clementem, quando peperit: that is, Iohn Engliſh, the 7. of that name, who (as they ſay) caried himſelfe like a man, when as indeede ſhe was a notable well learned woman; and diſcouered ſo to be by her deliuery of a child in the way neere to Saint Clements: you may reply, Volaterans reporting of it, is an argument of his ignorance.

PAP.

And what if I did ſo? yet you ſhall know anone, that I hauehave a better anſwer to him, and to the reſt. But meane while go p. 19on, and tell me what Trithemius ſaith to the matter.

PROT.

Thrithemius rrReuerendus & vndecunque doctiſſimus vir. Paulus Langius in chron. Citizenſe ad An. 1515.Abbot of Saint Martins Monaſterie in Spanhiem, a reuerend and an exceeding great learned man, writesſſIn chron. Monaſtern …irſaugienſis▪ thus: Sancto Leone Papa mortuo, eodem anno Iohannes Anglicus ſucceſſit 2. annis, & menſibus 5. quem ferunt quidam foeminam extitiſſe, & vni ſoli familiari cognitā, & ab eo compreſſam, peperiſſe in ſtrata publica. Et ob id eum nonnulli inter Pontifices ponere noluerunt, quaſi indignum facinus abhorrentes. That is, In the ſame yeare that Pope Leo died, Iohn Engliſh ſucceeded for 2. yeares and 5. moneths. Now ſome ſay ſhe was a woman, and that ſhe was knowne ſo to be but to one onelyonly, by whom at length ſhe was begot with child, and deliuered thereof in the high way. And for this cauſe ſome would not recken her among Popes in diſliking her villanous fact. Thus Thrithemius. With whom in ſubſtance agreeth Sabellicus, ttSabellicus … vndecunque doctiſſimus—claret hodie apud Venetos maximo in precio. Trithem. lib. de ſcript. Eccleſiaſticis.a man of great reckoning in Venice, yea one of the famouſeſt men in his time for all manner of good learning: of whoſe bookes**Papir. Maſon. de vrb. Epiſc. lib. 6. in Pio 3. Pius the third profeſſed he made as much reckoning as Alexander did of Homers Iliads. Iohannes Anglicus huius nominis 7 fit inde Pontifex, ſaithuuAenead. 9. l. r. Sabellicus. Fuit is Moguntiaco oriundus.

PAP.

Stay you there, and ſaue a labour. For I confeſſe with xxIn ſimilem impudentiam incidit Sabellicus, &c. ſaith Florimondus, loco ſupra citato.Florimondus, that Sabellicus by relying too much on Platina, hath put it in his hiſtory, doing therein very indiſcreetly.

PROT.

And what thinke you of Wernerus Roleuink, who is reckened byyyIn chron. Citizenſe, poſt An. 1493. Paulus Langius, among the famous Scholers of the order of Carthuſians, and commended byzzLib. d… ſcript. Eccleſiaſticis. Trithemius, for a man of good learning, and much deuotion, aaFaſcicul remporum, aetate. 6. ad …n. 854.whoſe words are theſe: Iſte Iohannes Anglicus cognomine, ſed natione Maguntinus, circa haec tempora dicitur fuiſſe. Et erat foemina habitu veſtita virili: ſic in diuina Scriptura profecerat, vt par ei non inueniretur, & in Papam eligitur. Sed pòſt impregnata, cūpulicè in proceſſione pergeret, peperit & moritur. Et hic ſextus videtur fuiſſe Papa, qui nomen ſanctitatis ſine re habuit vſus que h…c. Et ſimiliter ſicut alij à Deo plagatus fuit: nec ponitur in Catalogo Pontificum: that is, This Iohn, by his Sir-name Engliſh, by his countrey of Mentz, is reported to hauehave ſit as Pope about p. 20this time. And ſhe was a woman. But went in mans apparel. She profited ſo well in diuinity, that ſhe had no fellowe, and ſo was choſen to be Pope. But after a while being great with ch…ld, as ſhe went in publike Proceſſion, ſhe was deliuered thereof, and died. And this ſeemes to be the ſixth Pope, which to this day was called holy, and proued naught. And therefore he was plagued by God, as the reſt before him were plagued. Neither is ſhe in the Regiſter of Popes. How ſay you? did not Wernerus indiſcreetly in relating it thus plainely?

PAP.

Yes marrie did he. But I wonder not at him, for relating of it: becauſe in the ſame place (asbbLib. citato cap. 7 pag. 64 & 65. Florimondus obſerues) he writes, that in as much as ſhe was a Germaine, no Germaine could euer ſince be choſen Pope. Which is a lie with a latchet. For diuers Germaines ſince that hauehave bene aduanced vntounto the Popedome, as Damaſus the ſecond, and Victor the ſecond, with others,

PRO.

True: diuers Germaines hauehave bene Popes ſince Ioane the womans Popedome; and if Wernerus writ the contrary, Wernerus lied ſhamefully. But he hath no rule of his tonge, who chargeth Wernerus with ſuch a matter. For theſe are Wernerus words, which follow preſently vponupon the former: Nugantur aliqui, hac de cauſa nullum Almannum in Papam eligi, quod falſum eſſe conſtat. Some prattle, that for this cauſe no Germain may be choſen Pope, which is apparantly falſe. Whereby you may ſee that he reproueth that in others, for which he is iniuriouſly reproued by your Florimondus. Your Florimondus may be a man in office, but if he go on as he begins, he will hardly proue himſelfe honeſt.

PAP.

Good words I pray you ſir. Florimondus may be honeſt enough for any thing you ſay againſt him. For he**Loco citato. writes, that he hath two editions of this Wernerus, the one bearing date what **Viz. 1480.yeare it was printed, the other without date, but very ancient. And theſe two (as he ſaith) do differ in reporting the ſtorie of Pope Ioane, and in nothing elſe. Now it may be that though in yours it be as you ſay, yet in his it is otherwiſe.

PROT.

I my ſelfe hauehave ſeene two editions of Wernerus p. 21aſwell as Florimondus; yea I hauehave ſeene foure; one**By Henry Quentel. printed in the yeare 1479. another printed by Nicolas Gotz of Selteſtad, I know not when, for it caries no date: a third without note either of the printer, or of the place where it was printed, or of the time when it was printed. But queſtionles very ancient: a fourth printed at Frankeford, 1584. In the 3 ancient ones there is not a word different in the narration of Pope Ioane: nor in the 4, ſauing that the words Nugantur aliqui, &c. are in the fourth, and not in the other. But in none of them is there anie ſuch thing as Florimondus chargeth him with. But wil you heare what the next man ſaith to the point in queſtion? He is Matheus Palmerius, ccMath. Palmerius, natione Italus.—qui in Conc. Florentino (quod Eugenius Papa 4. contra Baſil. Synodum celebrauit) inter praeclariſſimos viros annumeratus fuit. Trithem. de ſcript. Eccleſ.an Italian, and one of the choice men which were at the Councel kept by Eugenius the 4. againſt the Councell of Baſil. Pontifex 106. Iohannes Auglicus (ſaithddIn chron. ad An. 853. Palmerius) ſedit annis 2, menſibus 3. Fama eſt hunc Iohannem foeminam fuiſſe, & vni ſoli familiari cognitam: qui eam cōplexus eſt, & grauis facta, peperit Papa exiſtens: quamobrē eum inter Pontifices non numerant quidā, ideò nomini numerum non facit. That is: Iohn was a woman, yet not known ſo to be but to one of her familiars, who lay with her. She was deliuered in the time of her Papacie: and becauſe ſome recken her not among the Popes, there are no moe Iohns for her, then if ſhe had neuer bene. Thus Palmerius.

PAP.

Be it ſo. But what ſaith Platina, I pray you, for your purpoſe?

PROT.

Platina,eeBartholomaeus Plat…na Apoſtolicus abbreuiator, vir vnde cunque doctiſſimus, &c. Trith. de ſcrip…. Eccleſ. keeper of the Librarie in the Vatican, a man of great wit and learning, ffDe vitis Pontif. in Ioh. 8.John 8writes thus: Iohannes Anglicus, ex Maguntiaco oriundus, malis artibus (vt aiunt) Pontificatum adeptus eſt: mentitus enim ſexum cum foemina eſſet, adoleſcens admodum Athenas cum amatore docto viro proficiſcitur, ibi que praeceptores bonarū artium audiendo tantum profecit, vt Romam veniens paucos admodum etiam in ſacris Literis pares haberet, nedum ſuperiores. Legendo autē, & disputando doctè, & acutè, tantum beneuolentie & authoritatis ſibi comparauit, vt mortuo Leone, in eius locum (vt Martinus ait) omnium conſenſu Pontifex crearetur: verùm poſtea à ſeruo compreſſa, cum aliquandiu ventrem occultè tuliſſet, tandem dum ad Lateranenſem Baſilicam p. 22proficiſceretur, inter theatrum (quod Coloſſeum vocant à Ner… nis Coloſſo) & S. Clementem, doloribus circumuenta peperit: eo que loci mortua Pontificatus ſui anno 2. menſe 1. diebus 4. ſine vllo honore ſepelitur. The meaning of which is: Iohn Engliſh, borne at Mentz, got the Popedome (as men ſay) by euill meanes. For he diſſembled his ſexe, being a woman indeed: and whē ſhe was verie yong, ſhe went to Athens with a ſcholer, who was in louelove with her. Where by hearing good Readers of all good learning, ſhe profited ſo well, that when ſhe came to Rome, ſhe had few fellowes, but neuer a one her better. Now by reading, and diſputing, learnedly and wittily, ſhe got ſo much credite, that vponupon Leo his death ſhe was choſen in his roome (as Martin writes) by common conſent. But within a while after ſhe proued with child by one of her ſeruants; & though ſhe caried all cloſely for a time, yet at length as ſhe went to S. Iohn Laterans, betweene the Theater (called the Coloſſes) and S. Clements, ſhe fell in trauell, and was deliuered of a child, and died in the place. Which was in the ſecond yeare, firſt monethmonth, and fourth day of her reigne. And ſhe was buried without anie ſolemnitie. How like you this?

PAP.

So and ſo. But Bernartius is of opinion, that this was neuer written by Platina, but was foiſted into him. For I hauehave heard (ggImpudens a…quis nebulo interpolauit ſcripta Platinae. Audiui ex Antonio Heetueldio, ampliſſimo laudatiſſimo que viro, Conſulari Louaniē ſi, dixiſſe ſibi ſaepius Engelbertum Boonium—vidiſſe …e Romae in Bibliotheca Vaticana, antiquiſſima Platinae exemplaria manuſcripta, ſedulò examinaſſe, & de Ioanne foemina ne lite…am quidem reperiſſe. Bernartius de vtilitate legendae hiſt. lib. 2 p. 111. ſaith he) by Antonius Hetweeld, a man of good report, and an Alderman of Louaine, that one Engelbertus Boonius, a reuerend man, and Deane of a great Church in Germany, had oftentimes told him, that he had ſeene many ancient manuſcripts of Platina in the Vatican at Rome, and peruſed them diligently, and yet found neuer a word in any of them touching Pope Ioane.

PROT.

That Deane had the lucke of it, if he light on ſuch ancient manuſcripts, as the Alderman of Louaine told Bernartius of. But how chanced it, that neither Onuphrius, nor Bellarmine, nor Baronius, who hauehave had as free acceſſe into the Vatican librarie as anie, could neuer light on theſe manuſcripts? How chanceth it, that none ſince Bernartius thought good to except in that ſort againſt Platina? Onuphrius, Bellarmine, and Baronius acknowledgement, that this ſtorie is in Platina, perſwades me, that either Bernartius belyed p. 23the Alderman, or the Alderman belyed the Deane, or the Deane made a foole of the Alderman. For queſtionleſſe if there had bene any ſuch manuſcripts, ſome of them would hauehave found them out, and made it knowne to the world ere this. For they are glad of narrower fig-tree leaues to couer their nakedneſſe withall, then ſuch manuſcripts, if they were forth-coming. But perhaps you hauehave ſome better anſwer behind then this.

PAP.

I hauehave. For what could you reply, if I anſwered that whichhhTo. 2. de Poenitentia, lib. 3. cap. 13. Bellarmine hath vponupon another occaſion, to wit, that Platina wrote not by publike authoritie, nor tooke his hiſtorie out of the publike Regiſters of the Church?

PROT.

I could quickly tell you, that both Bellarmine and you ſpake without booke. For, beſides that Platina himſelfe iiProoemio lib. de vitis Pontif. in epiſtola ad Ziſtum 4.profeſſeth, that he writ by the commaundement of Sixtus the fourth,kkAnnotat. in Plat. in vit S. Petri Apoſtoli. Onuphrius cōfeſſeth, that he followed Damaſus, Anaſtaſius, and ſuch Hiſtoriographers as had written before of the ſame matter.

PAP.

But what ſay you tollLib. citato, ca. 4. pag. 36. Florimondus, whoſe anſwer is, That Platina reported it rather to ſhew his reading, then for that he thought it true?

PROT.

What is Florimondus reaſon for that?

PAP.

Marrie if he had thought it true (ſaithmmSi haec vera ſibi perſuaſiſſe…, tanquam vnguis in vlcere fuiſſet, & odium quod in Pontifices conceperat, audacius euomuiſſlet. Florimondus) he would hauehave exaggerated it, and made the worſt of it, that thereby he might hauehave reuenged himſelfe of the Popes at whom he was angrie. For Paul the ſecond (as all men know) racked him, and depriued him of all his dignities, and iuſtly caſt him into priſon, and kept him there as long as himſelfe liued.

PROT.

That Paul the ſecond racked Platina, and depriued him of his dignities, and kept him long in priſon, is verie true. But that he caſt him iuſtly into priſon, is falſe. FornnDe ſcript. Eccleſiaſticis. verbo, Bartholomaeus Platina. Trithemius witneſſeth, that Paul the ſecond dealt**Crudeliſſimè. cruelly therein. Yet ſuppoſe all to be true: doth it follow in your Florimondus logick, Paul the ſecond wronged Platina, Ergo Platina hated all Popes? And why not thē: Sixtus the fourth gratified Platina many waies: Sixtus the fourth ſet Platina at libertie, and reſtored him to his dignities: Ergo Platina loued p. 24all Popes? If one mans kindnes could not work louelove towards all: it is not likely that one mans vnkindneſſe ſhould breed an heart-burning againſt all: wherefore, notwithſtanding this, we may wel think that Platina wrote as he thought. And the rather for that in the words following,**Apparet. ea quae dixi. ex his eſſe, quae fieri poſſe creduntur. he profeſſeth, that ſuch a thing might well enough happen. What ſay you to Chalcocondilas the Athenian, whom I named next before Platina, as a witnes for vsus in this controuerſie?

PAP.

I ſay, Chalcocondilas hath not this tale.

PROT.

What man? are not theſeooDe rebus Turcicis. lib. 6. pag. 98. his words? Conſtat mulierem quandam in pontificatum eſſe ſubuectam, quia ſexus ignorabatur. Nam Italiae Occidentales penè omnes barbam radunt. Cum autem illa mulier grauida eſſet facta, & ad feſtum ſiue ſacrificium prodijſſet, peperit infantem inter ſacrificium in conspectu populi. Quapropter ne decipiantur iterum ſedrem cognoſcant, ne que ambigant, Pontificis creati virilia tangunt, & qui tangit, acclamat: Mas nobis dominus eſt. That is, It is well knowne that a certaine woman was made Pope, by reaſon they knew not her ſexe. For all (almoſt) in the weſterne parts of Italy, ſhaue their beardes. Now when ſhe was great with child, and came abroad to ſolemnize ſome day, or to ſay Seruice: as ſhe was at ſeruice, ſhe was deliuered of a child in the ſight of all the people. Wherefore leſt hereafter they ſhould be deceiued in like ſort,Quamuis apud Chalcocondilum Latinè red ditum, eiuſmodi fabula reperitur eſſe deſcripta; non tamen ab ipſo authore poſitum ſcias, ſed ab impoſtore Clauſero fraudulenter appoſitum. they make triall of his man-hood by touching, & he that toucheth proclaimeth: We hauehave a man to our Pope.

PAP.

I confeſſe theſe words are in Chalcocondilas tranſlated into Latine. But I ſay withppAnnal. Tom. 10 ad An. 853. …u. 66. Baronius, that though it be in the Latine, yet that was by Clauſerus the tranſlators bad dealing, who foiſted it in. It was not written in the Greeke by Chalcocondilas.

PROT.

How proues Baronius that?

PAP.

Nay he medles not with prouing of it, but refers you ouer to Florimondus for it. For Florimondus hath excellently well (asqqIbid. Impoſturam egregiè detexit Florimondus. Baronius ſaith) diſcouered Clauſerus coſenage therin.

PROT.

How I pray you? for I know you hauehave Florimon… at your fingers end.

p. 25PAP.

Why,rrFlorim. fabula Ioannae, cap. 6. nu. 2. Florimondus compared Clauſerus tranſlation into Latin with a French mans tranſlatiō of the ſame into French: and by that he ſaw this tale was not in Chalcocondilas, for …e found nothing of it in the French mans tranſlation.

PROT.

And is this Florimondus reaſon ſo much commended by Baronius, whereby he diſcouers Clauſerus coſinage? Nowe the Vicar of S. fooles be ghoſtly father to them both: for why might not the French man aſwell leaue it out, as Clauſerus put it in?

PAP.

Oh, a faithfull tranſlator (asſſIbid. Fidus interpres praetermittere non auſus fuiſſet, ſi in Graeco exēplari exaratum inueniſſet. Florimondus notes) durſt not hauehave left it out, if he had found it in the Greeke.

PRO.

Nor put it in, if he had not found it in the Greeke: durſt he? And why may not we hold Clauſerus as faithfull an Interpreter, as the French man? yea why may not we hold him more faithfull, ſeeing the French man was a Papiſt? for ttGretſer. lib. 2. de iure &c. prohibendi lib. malos, cap 10.Papiſts hold it lawfull, in tranſlating to omitt offenſiue matter: and ſo doth no Proteſtant. If Florimondus or Baronius could hauehave named the place where a man might hauehave ſeene a Greeke copie, in which it is not, they had ſaid ſomewhat to purpoſe; but going about to diſproue it by a tranſlation of one of their fellowes, they deale ridiculouſly.

PAP.

Well, if this anſwer pleaſe you not, know further, that it matters not what Chalcocondilas writes of this matter. For in rendering the reaſon why ſhe could not ſo well be knowne to be a woman, he writes: That in the weſterne parts of Italie all (almoſt) ſhaue their beards: wherein he was groſſy deceiued, asuuIn eo quod de barba radē da aſſerit, turpiter lapſus eſt. Florim. cap. 6. nu. 1. Florimondus obſerues. And if in that, why not in the other?

PRO.

He was not deceiued in that of ſhauing. For by the Popes Canons, the Italian Prieſts, yea all the Prieſts of the Weſterne Church, are to be ſhauen: Hic Papa (Anicetus) clericos comam & barbam radere in ſignum clericatus iuſſit, ſaithxxChronograph. lib. 2. Pontacus. That is, Pope Anicetus commanded the Clergie to ſhaue both their heads and their beards, in token that they were of the Clergie. And, Occidentalis Eccleſiae Clerū, ab ipſis Eccleſiae Chriſtianae primordiis, barbam radendi morem tenuiſſe, **Greg. 7. lib. 8 Regiſt. Epiſt. 10 vt refert. Salmeron, diſput. 18. in 1. Cor. 11. pa. 147. and Baron. Annal. tom. 1. ad An. 58. num. 142.1 Cor 11aſſerit Gregorius 7. Pope Gregorie the 7. auoucheth, that from the Apoſtles daies, the Weſterne Clergie p. 26did ſhaue their beards. To whomyyRational. diuin. offic lib. 2. de Miniſtris, &c. Durandus, who liued about the yeare 1280. ſubſcribeth: for he acknowledgeth, that before, and in his time they were ſhaued, prouing the lawfulneſſe of it out of Ezechiel, and ſhewing the myſteries that are imported by it. YeazzPro ſacerdotū ba…bis. Iohannes Pierius Valerianus, (as you ſhall heare hereafter) witneſſeth the ſame, imputing your error in electing Pope Ioane, to the ordinarie ſhauing of beards: becauſe by that meanes a man could hardly know a man from a woman. Will not Florimondus lin lying? What thinke you of Theodoricus de Niem one of your Popes Secretaries? is it doubtfull whether I wrong him in calling him to be a witneſſe in this caſe?

PAP.

I thinke you wrong him. ForaaCap. 10. nu. 5. & 6. Florimondus reckons him among them who would readily hauehave taken vp ſuch a tale againſt the Popes if he had heard of it, and yet did not.

PROT.

Florimondus is like himſelfe, to ſay no worſe, for theſe are bbLib. de priuilegijs & iuribus Imperij.Theodoricus his owne words: Iohannes vocatus de Anglia, & fuit mulier de Moguntia nata, quae ſtuduit Athenis ſub virili habitu, & in tantum profecit in artibus ipſis, quòd tandē veniens Romam, & per bienniū in eadē ſchola artes ipſas liberales legit: & adeò ſufficiens fuit, quòd etiam maiores & nobiliores vrbis, eius lectiones frequenter audierint. Ea poſtea in Papam concorditer eligitur à Romanis, & Papatum biennio & amplius tenuit: ſed tunc diuitijs, ocio, & d…licijs vacans, non potuit continere ſicut prius fecit, dum ardenter in paupertate poſita literarum ſtudio inſiſtebat: vnde dum quadam die in Rogationibus cum clero Romano, ſicut tunc moris erat, in ſolenni proceſſione incederet, Papalibus ornata diuitijs & ornamentis, edidit filium ſuum primogenitum, ex quodam eius cubiculario conceptum, prope templum Pacis in vrbe, vt adhuc vetus ſtatua marmorea illic poſita figur atiue demonſtrat. Vnde ſummi Pontifices, dum ad Lateranenſem de Baſilica Principis Apoſtolorum, & è contrà vadunt, illud rectum iter non faciunt, imò per alios vicos, per indirectum tranſeunt, illud aliquantulum prolongando. That, is Iohn called Engliſh, was a woman borne at Mentz, and ſhe ſtudied at Athens going in mans apparell, where ſhe profited ſo well in the arts, that coming to Rome ſhe read there the liberall p. 27ſciences, and was held ſo ſufficient a reader, that many of the better ſort became her ordinarie hearers. Afterwards with one conſent ſhe was choſen Pope, and liued in it two yeares and vpward. But betaking her ſelfe more then before to idleneſſe and pleaſure, ſhe could not liue continently as ſhe did in her poore eſtate, when ſhe plied her booke diligently: whereupon one day as ſhe went with the Clergie and people of Rome (according to the cuſtome of that time) in ſolemne proceſſion, being attired in Papall manner, ſhe was deliuered of her firſt begotten ſonne, begotten by one of her chamber, neare the temple of Peace, which ſtands in the citie; as is euident by an old marble Image which ſtands there to this day, to denote ſo much in a figure. And hereuppon it is, that when the Popes go from the Vatican to Saint Iohn Laterans, and backe againe, they go not the direct way thither, but by other ſtreetes further about, and ſo make their iourney longer. Thus Theodoricus de Niem.

PAP.

I do not remember any particular anſwer vntounto this mans teſtimonie. Wherefore go on, and let me heare what the reſt ſay. Yet if you will for breuitie ſake, you may paſſe ouer the teſtimonies of Petrarch, and Boccace, and Lucidus, and of our countrie man Higden, and ſome ſuch others, becauſeccCap. 3. & 4. Florimondus acknowledgeth that they ſpeake to it.

PROT.

Content. What thinke you of Iohn of Paris, ddTrithem. de Script. Eccleſ. verbo, Ioh. Pariſ. & Poſſeuinus in Apparat ſac. verbo, Ioh. Pariſ.who liued about the yeare 1280, and read publikely with great commēdation in the Vniuerſitie of Paris, both diuinity and humanitie. Beleeued not he this ſtorie?

PAP.

I cannot tell. What ſay you?

PROT.

I thinke he did. For ſhewing how ſometimes a man may lawfully diſpute and take exception againſt the Pope, in reſpect of his perſon, heeeDe Poteſtate Regia & Papali, cap 23. notes, That ſuch a perſon may be choſen as is not capable: vt ſi eſſet foemina, vel haereticus, ſicut fuerunt aliqui, qui ob hoc non enumerantur in Catalogo Paparū. As for example, ſaith he, if he prooue a woman, or an hereticke, as ſome hauehave done, who in that reſpect are not reckoned in the catalogue of Popes.

PAP.

It ſeemes by his words (I cannot deny) that he alludes p. 28to ſuch a matter. But did you not alledge Gotfridus Viterbienſis for proofe of the ſame? I pray you let me heare him ſpeake. forffAnſwer to B. Iewels Apology D. Harding reckons him among them who ſay nothing of her.

PROT.

True, D. Harding doth ſo. But ſo doth no man elſe of his ſide, to my remembrance. Which is a great probabilitie that Harding belies him. But not to ſtand vponupon probabilities, the hiſtorie it ſelfe puts the matter out of doubt: for betweene Leo the 4. and Benedict the 3. weggGotefrid. Viterbienſis Chro. part. 20. in Catalogo Ro. Pont. reade thus (not in the margent, nor in any other letter, but in the currant of the text, and ſame letter) Papiſſa Ioanna non numeratur. That is, Ioane the ſhe Pope is not regiſtred. Wherby it is manifeſt that he knew of her, though he ſaid litle of her.

PAP.

When liued this Gotefridus? and what maner of man was he?

PROT.

He liued, ashhDe Script. Eccleſiaſticis, verbo, Godefridus Viterb. Trithemius witneſſeth, in the yeare 1185. and was a prieſt well ſeene in the holy Scripture, and not ignorant of humane knowledge:Godefridus was Imperialis aulae Capellanus, & Nota…ius. Poſſeuin. Apparat. ſac. verb. Godefrid. Viterb. ſo that you hauehave litle cauſe to except againſt him either as a late writer, or a raſh writer. But ſhall we at length heare what euidence Martinus Polonus affoords vsus in this caſe?

PAP.

With all my heart: for there areiiVeriùs dixerim, haec omnia ex Heroldi officina manaſſe, &c. Florim. c. 2. nu. 6. diuers who hold opiniō that that which is in Polonus touching Pope Ioane, is cogd into him by Heroldus, who firſt printed him, or ſome ſuch like fellow.

PRO.

Do they ſay ſo? And can they ſhew me any booke written or printed, wherein it is not inkkPolonus in Chro. ad An. 855 Polonus, thus? Poſt hunc Leonem Iohannes Anglus, natione Maguntinus, ſedit an. 2, menſ. 5, diebus 4. Hic, vt aſſeritur, foemina fuit, & quum in puellari aetate à quodā ſuo amaſio in habitu virili Athenas ducta fuit, in diuerſis ſcientijs ita profecit, vt nullus ſibi par inueniretur: adeò vt poſt Romae **Gra. loquitur. Dia. vera docet. Re. verba collocat. Mu. canit. Ar. numerat. Ge. ponderat. As. colit aſtra. The three firſt make T…uium. The foure later, Quadriuium.triuium legens, magnos magiſtros, & diſcipulos & auditores haberet. Et quum in vrbe, & vita & ſcientia magnae opinionis eſſet, in Papam concorditer eligitur. Sed in Papatu per familiarem ſuum impregnatur: verùm tempus partus ignorans, quum de Sancto Petro in Lateranum tenderet, anguſtiata inter Coliſeum & S. Clementis eccleſiam peperit, & poſtea mortua ibidem (vt dicitur) ſepulta fuit. Et propterea quòd Dominus Papa ſemper eandem viam obliquat, creditur omninò à quibuſdam, quòd p. 29ad deteſtationem facti hoc faciat. Nec ideo ponitur in Catalogo ſanctorum Pontificum, tam propter muliebris ſexum, quàm propter deformitatem facti. Which in effect ſounds thus in Engliſh: After this Leo, Iohn Engliſh, by her countrev of Mentz, ſate two yeares, fiue moneths, and foure dayes. This Pope (as they ſay) was a woman, & being caried in her youth in mans apparell to Athens, by one who was in louelove with her, ſhe profited ſo much in diuerſe kinds of learning, that ſhe had no fellow: in ſo much that coming to Rome, and reading there Grammer, Logicke and Rhetoricke, ſhe had of the greateſt Rabbins there many auditors and ſcholers. And being much eſteemed of in that Citie, both for her life and learning, with one voice ſhe was choſen Pope. Now in the time of her Papacy, ſhe was got with child by ſome of her familiars: and not knowing ſhe was ſo neere her reckoning, as ſhe went from Saint Peters to Saint Iohn Lateran, betweene the Coloſſe and Saint Clements Church, ſhe was deliuered of a child; but died thereon, and was there (as they ſay) buried. And becauſe the Lord the Pope doth alwayes ſhunne that way, it is thought by ſome, that he doth it in diſlike of the accident. And ſhe is not numbred among the Popes: partly becauſe of her ſexe, partly becauſe of the filthineſſe of her fact. Can they, I ſay, ſhew me any booke written or printed, wherein it is not in Polonus thus? Doth not Onuphrius, and Bellarmine, and Bernartius, and Baronius, and N. D. with manie others of your ſide, who ſhew more wit then honeſtie in pleading this caſe, confeſſe that Polonus writ this? & that this is to be found in Polonus?

PAP.

Yes, the moſt do. But ſome, as I told you before, ſuſpect the worſt, and namelyllIn his Replie to D. Fulke. cap. 10. Demaund 45. pag. 373. D. Briſtow; for he reports that manie yeares agoe, a Proteſtant (who was counted a great hiſtorian) brought out the ſame Martinus in a faire writtē hand, to ſhew him this ſtorie. And behold, ſhe was not in the text, but in the margent, in an other hand. Whereupon when he ſaw that: Now I perceiue (quoth he) that this Author alſo faileth you.

PROT.

What Proteſtant was that, who had Martinus in ſo faire a written hand? Can you tell me his name, or the p. 30place where he aboade, that I may enquire further, for ſatisfying my ſelfe in the truth of this matter?

PAP.

Nay, I know no more then I hauehave told you. For the Doctor names no particular circumſtance. But I make no queſtion of the truth of it. For I preſume that ſuch a Doctor would not lie.

PROT.

Oh no. A popiſh prieſt lie? that is not credible, no more then it is credible thatmmDixerunt: homo ſacerdos de ſemine Aaron venit, non decipiet nos. 1. Mac. 7. 14. in vulg.1 Macc 7:14 a prieſt of the order of Aaron would deceiue. But you know what a long ſtorie that nnMotiue 5.Doctor tels, of one Margaret Ieſop, who was cured of her lameneſſe by the Sacrament of miracle that was kept at Saint Gudilaes Church at Bruxels: and how he amplifies eueryevery point, and ſets it out with all the circumſtances, as though it were as true as the Goſpell; whereasooMeterran hiſt. Belg. lib. 10. the Senate of Bruxels, by way of proclamation within a few yeares after, did diſcouer all to be but a packe of knauery. And therefore you muſt pardon me, if notwithſtanding I giuegive him not the lie, yet I beleeue him not in this, cōſidering it is an old ſaid ſaw: Qui verſatur in generalibus, verſatur dolosè: He that ſpeakes onelyonly in generality, meanes falſely.

PAP.

Well; be it that Polonus writ this, yet know you that asppLib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. Bellarmine andqq3. Conuerſ. part 2. c. 5. nu. 29 p. 399. N. D. note, he was a very ſimple man: and that his manner of writing was vaine and nothing like to be true inrrAnſwer to B. Iewels chalēge. D. Hardings iudgement. Yea know, that he was onelyonly famous for tales, for that isſſMartinus Polonus fabulis tā tū celebris, caetera obſcurus homo. lib. 2. de vtilitate legend. hiſt. p. 113. Bernartius cenſure of him.

PROT.

See the raſhneſſe of our later generation of Papiſts. Polonus was anttArchiep. Coſentinus, & Poenitentia…ius Papae. Poſſeuin. Apparat. ſacer. verbo, Martinus Polonus. Archbiſhop, and the Popes Poenitentiary. uuTrithem. de Script. Eccleſiaſticis, verbo, Martinus.He was learned in the holy Scriptures, and not ignorant of ſecular learning, he was one whomxxVi… magnae doctrinae ſingugulariſ…ue vitae. Platina in vita Victor. 3. Platina relied on much, for matters of hiſtorie, and thought worthy the commendation of great learning, and ſingular good life. He was the man, whom the Author of Faſciculus temporum, and Iacobus Bergomenſis, two good hiſtoriographers, profeſſed that they followed eſpecially. And yet with our preſent Papiſts he is but a ſimple man, &c. Are you not aſhamed of this exception?

PAP.

No. For I will proue his ſimplicitie by many arguments.

p. 31PROT.

And how I pray you?

PAP.

Why firſt by this,aaBernart. lib. citato, pag. 113. Florim. cap. 2. nu. 6. That he would needs perſwade vsus that Pompilius, who was Numa his father, ſucceeded next to Romulus. For this is a meere tale, and yet he writes it is as a truth.

PROT.

Away, Away. Poſt Romulum regnauit Numa Pompilius, bbLib. de quatuor maioribus regnis, & Rom. vrbis exordio. Cap. de Rectoribus & regimine vrbis, pag. 10.ſaith Polonus. That is, Numa Pompilius reigned next after Romulus: but not Pompilius who was Numa his father.

PAP.

ccBernart. & Florim. locis citatis.Secondly he would perſwade vsus that Numa of a Tribune of the people, was made a king, which is another tale.

PROT.

He would not. For heddSuoputat poſt exactos Reges ad Chriſtum vſque. Cap de binis Coſſ. pag. 12 writes plainely, that Tribunes were ordained 16. yeares after the reigne of the Romaine kings, when the people complained of the hard meaſure that they receiued at the hands of the Conſuls and of the Senate. He knew no ſuch officers in the time of the kings.

PAP.

eeBernart. & Florim. locis citatis.Thirdly, he would perſwade vsus, that the Church which is now called Sancta Maria Rotunda, and in old time Pantheon, built by one Agrippa, was before that the houſe of one Cybele, ſuppoſed to be the mother of the gods: which is a toy, and a conceit of an idle head.

PROT.

This is falſe too. ForffIn Chron. in Domitian. p. 38. he ſaith onelyonly, that Pantheon was built by Agrippa at Cybeles motion, who was the mother of the gods, which is confirmed for true by many others: he ſaith not, that it was firſt Cybeles, and afterwards turned to the honour of all the gods.

PAP.

hhBernart. & Florim. locis citatis.Fourthly, he would make vsus beleeue, that that famous Theater made by Titus, was the temple of the Sunne; which is meere foolery.

PROT.

No, No, Ante Coloſeum fuit templum Solis, ſaith iiLib. de 4. maioribus regnis, & cap. de Tēplis idolorum, pa. 8.Polonus: before the Coloſſe there was a tēple of the Sunne. But that Titus Theater was that temple, Polonus ſaith not.

PAP.

kkBernart. & Florim. locis citatis.Yet he ſaith, That the temple of Peace, commonly called the euerlaſting Temple, fell the ſame night that Chriſt was borne: whereas it is plaine by all ancient hiſtories, that it was not built till Veſpaſians dayes, a good many of yeares after Chriſt was borne.

p. 32PROT.

The ancient hiſtories witneſſe, that Ʋespaſian built a temple of Peace: but that doth not argue, there was no Temple of Peace before. Some write, that Romulus built a temple of Peace. AndaaStromat lib 5. Clemens Alexandrinus writes, that Numa built a Temple of Peace. But it concerns not Polonus credit, whether there was any or none: for he ſaith not, that the Temple of Peace fell the ſame night that Chriſt was borne. He onelyonlybbIn Chron. ad An. Chriſt 1. ſaith, that the golden Image which Romulus ſet vp in his pallace, auowing, that it ſhould not fall downe till a virgine was deliuered of a child, fell downe in the night wherein Chriſt was borne: though if he had ſaid the other, the matter had not bene great. For he was neither the firſt, nor the laſt;ccFabeha de collapſo Romae Pacis templo, tempore Chriſts ortus, multipliciū haud vulgarium fuit ſcriptorum authoritate firmatum. Baron. Annal. tom. 10. ad an. 853. nu. 61 many of good note both before, and ſince, hauehave writen as much: namelyddHom. quae legitur apud Lip. to. 8. & Sur. to. 6. Petrus Damianus, eeIn catal. Sanct. lib. 2. cap. 1.Petrus de Natalibus, ffSer. 2. de die Natiuit. Dom.Iacobus de Voragine, and the Author of that firſt ſermon vponupon Chriſts Natiuity, which is extant among the Sermons aſcribed toggFol. 297. edit. Pariſ. 1517. Bernard. If you hauehave no better arguments to prooue his ſimplicity, you may ſoone prooue your ſelfe a malicious ſlanderer.

PAP.

My arguments are good enough againſt him, as you ſhall heare more fully anon. But for the preſent tell me, what Marianus Scotus hath that makes for you. For I cannot thinke it is true, that Marianus Scotus hath this ſtorie.

PROT.

You ieaſt I am ſure. For do we not reade thus inhhMarian. Scotus in Chron. aetate 6. ad An. 854 him? Leo Papa obijt Kalend. Auguſti. Huic ſucceſſit Ioanna mulier, An. 2. menſ. 5. dieb. 4. That is, Leo the Pope died in the Kalends of Auguſt. After him ſucceeded Ioane the woman, who ſate 2. yeares, 5. monethes, and 4. dayes. And, which I would hauehave you note by the way, this Marianus iiSo he himſelfe writeth in Chro. ad An. 1028.was borne in the yeare 1028. andkkAb omnibus honore habebatur, & non ſine opinione ſanctitatis ſepelitur. Trithemius de Script. Eccleſ. verb. Marianus. Ioh. Maior, de geſtis Scotorum lib. 3. cap. 5. liued in great credite in his life time, and when he died was held a Saint: and at this day is reputed by yourllAnnal. tom. 1. ad ann. 34. num. 149. Baronius, Nobilis Chronographus, a worthy Chronologer.

PAP.

mmN. D. lib. cicato. nu. 27. pag. 397.I do not deny but that you may reade ſo in ſome printed copies. But I deny, there is any ſuch thing to be read in the more ancient hand-written originals, found in Flanders and other places.

PRO.

Do you not deny but that we may reade ſo in ſome p. 33printed …pies? verily you might hauehave yeelded vntounto me, that I may reade ſo in all printed copies, for you are not able to produce any printed copie (except it be of yeſterdaies printing) wherein it is not. But you denie it to be in the more ancient hand-written originals found in Flanders and other places. And vponupon what ground (I pray) denie you that? forrrIn ſcripto codi ce ex quo prodijt prima editio ita legitur. Baro. Annal. to. 10. ad ann. 853. nu 60. Baronius your Cardinal Hiſtoriographer; confeſſeth, that that ancient hand-written originall which the firſt printed copie followed, hath the ſtorie. And it is ſo ordinary with you Papiſts to bely hand written originals, that he, who knowes you, cannot in wiſedome beleeue any of you vponupon your bare words.

PAP.

I hauehave good ground of that which I denie, I would you ſhould well know. But firſt I challenge you to make proofe that we Papiſts, as you call vsus, belie any hand-written originals, for me thinkes you therein charge vsus deeply.

PROT.

The proofe of that is plaine. For firſt one of your Biſhops, euenffDe Opt. gen. interpret. lib. 2. cap. 6. B. Lindan, to make good his owne conceit of the right reading of the text Ioh. 21. 22. (about which you know there hath bene hote contention) which he maintained to be this. If ſo I will he remaine till I come, what is that to thee? alledged for proofe thereof the teſtimony of an ancient hand-written originall kept at Aix in Germany: whereas in truth, it is not ſo read in that copie, but according to the Greeke: If I will that he remaine till I come, what is that to thee? asttNotat in Ioh. 21. 22.John 21:22 Franciſous Lucas a man of your owne coate witneſſeth. Againe the ſame B. Lindan uuLib. citato. cap. 3. & 5.proteſted that he ſaw an ancient hand-written originall of the Pſalmes in Hebrew, found in England: whereby it was apparant, that the Hebrew Bible is defectiue at this day in ſome points. Yet the ſamexxNotat. in Pſal. 13.Ps 13 Lucas, who came to the ſight of the ſame copie, aſſures vsus: That that Pſalter makes rather to the contrary. In like manneryyAnnot. in Platin. in Honorio. 1. Onuphrius your Frier aboue named, alledged certaine hand-written originals of Maximus a Monke, by which it is manifeſt, as he ſaith, That Honorius the firſt condemned the Monothelites: yet Turrian the Ieſuit, who had acceſſe to the ſelfe ſame manuſcripts, confeſſeth p. 34(aszzDefenſ. fidei Trident lib 2. Andradius relateth) that Maximus make no mention of Honoruas condemning them, And whereas your great Goliah of Gath,aaLib. 4. de Ro. Pont. cap. 11. Bellarmine I meane, to proue that Honorius name was thruſt by fraud into the ſixt generall Councell among the Monothelites, a…irmeth: that Anaſtaſius (which was then in written hand onelyonly) did teſtifie ſo much, now, that Anaſtaſius isbbMoguntiae, Ann. 1602. printed, we ſet Bellarmines fraud. For Anaſtaſius teſtifieth no ſuch thing.ccIn Leone 2. Anaſtaſius himſelfe reckons Honorius for a Monothelite. In this controuerſie about dame Ioane, diuerſe of yourddOnuph. Bell. Bernart locis ſupr. cit. & Florim. cap. 14. nu. 1. & Sanders de viſibili Monarch. lib. 7. pag. 412. proctors pleade as out of the hand-written originals of the ſame, Anaſtaſius, that vponupon Leo the 4. his death the ſea was void but 15. daies, and then Benedict was choſen. Yet our printed Anaſtaſius makes it euident, they belied the hand-written Anaſtaſius: for in the printed, there is not a word of the number of daies betweene Leo his death, and Benedict his election. Laſtly, whereas your grādhiſtoriographer Baronius, was informed by letters, from ſuch as your ſelfe, that Zoticus was ſhot through with darts, and ſo martyred: and he who certified him thereof, aſſured him that he ſent a true copie out of the hand-written originall acts of Zoticus, whereupon Baronius put it in print:eeQuod arundinibus percuſſum martyrium conſummaſſe Zoticum dixerimus, emendamus. Haud enim fidelem nacti ſumus teſtem, qui ea ſe ex Actis eius deſcripſiſſe, per li teras ad me datas, teſtatus eſt. Accepi poſt haec Acta Martyris, & nihil tale in allis reperi. In Martyrologium Rom. lan 12. f. Baronius was glad to retract it ſince; becauſe (though he light vponupon the ſame Acts) he could find no ſuch thing in thē. How ſay you? do not theſe particulars proue, that manie of you are excellent at facing matters out vnderunder pretence of handwritten originals: which when they come to viewing, make nothing for you?

PAP.

If all be true you ſay,ggSi ita ſit vt ipſi fingunt, qui poſt Marianū de Ioanna ſcripſerūt, nonne ipſum Marianū in ſuae ſententiae patrociniū afc…uiſlent, & ſuam hac arce opinionem muniuiſſent. …lworim c. 2. nu. 4. it will proue (I grant) ſome bad dealing in ſome few perſons among vsus. But you ſhall neuer be able to proue as much by me: for I will proue whatſoeuer I ſay.

PROT.

Go to then: Make you proofe vntounto me that this ſtorie is not in the more ancient hand-written Originals of Marianus Scotus: and if you do ſo, I will yeeld.

PAP.

Will you ſo? Then I argue thus: ^a if this ſtory had bene in the moſt ancient hand-written Originals of Marianus Scotus, they who writ ſince his time would hauehave alledged him for proofe of it. But no man till now of late alledged him for proofe of p. 35it. Wherefore this was not in the moſt ancient hand-written Originals of Marianus Scotus.

PROT.

I deny the conſequence of your propoſition, viz. They who writ ſince Marianus his time would hauehave alledged him for proofe of it, if ſo be it had bene written in the moſt ancient hand-written Originals. For firſt, till of late, there was no controuerſie about it, which made men leſſe carefull to auouch their authors for it. Secondly, Marianus chronicle, till printing came to ſome perfection, was rare (it ſeems) and hard to come by. ForbbPraefat. in Chron. Polonus reckoning vp the bookes out of which he tooke his ſtorie, names not Marianus among them. No more dothccAnnot. in Plat. in vit. B. Petri. Onuphrius where he reckons vp the Authours whom Platina followed. Onuphrius (I ſay) doth not reckon Marianus among them. Iacobus Bergomenſis, and Wernerus Roleuinck, in their prefaces to their hiſtories, wherein they ſhew whom they followed, paſſe by Marianus as a man vnknowne vntounto them. And ſo do others. But for making of this matter plaine, tell me, hauehave you not heard,eeAnaſtaſius Papa voluit occultè reuocare Achatium Conſtantinop Epiſe. damnatū, quare diuino nutu percuſſus eſt. that Anaſtaſius the ſecond, one of your Popes, would hauehave reſtored Acatius the Biſhop of Conſtantinople, who ſtood excommunicated by ſome of your Popes predeceſſors, but that God preuented your Pope, and ſtroke him with a fearefull death?

PAP.

Yes, I hauehave heard ſo much. ButffBell lib. 4. de Ro. Pont cap. 10 & Append. ad lib de ſummo Pont. & Pighius Eccleſ. Hierarch lib 4. c. 8. I take it to be as vain a fable as this of Pope Ioane.

PROT.

Yet you cannot deny but that it is recorded for true, by ggDe vit. Pontif. in Anaſtaſ. 2.Anaſtaſius Bibliothecarius, by hhChron. lib. 1. ad ann. 414.by Rhegino, by iiAetate 6. ad ann. 499.Marianus Scotus, by kkIn Chron. ad ann. 491.Sigebert, by llDe vit. Pont. in Anaſtaſ. 2.Luitprandus, by mmDe vit Pont. in vita Anaſtaſ. 2.Albo Floriacenſis, by nnDiſt. 19. c. Anaſtaſius.Gratian, by ooIn Chron. ad ann. 498.Polonus, by ppDe vit. Pont. in Anaſtaſ. 2.Platina, by qqLib. 22.Volateran, by rrSupplé. Chron ad ann. 495.Iacobus Bergomenſis, by ſſFaſcic. Temp. ad ann. 484.Wernerus Roleuinck, by ttDe ſcript. Eccl. verbo Anaſtaſ.Trithemius, by uuSumma. Conc.Charanza, by xxSumma de Eccl. lib. 2. cap.103.Iohannes de Turrecremata, and yyNauclerus, Antomnus, locis infra ci….by others.

PAP.

No indeed I cannot deny that, for all theſe (I know) report it as true.

PROT.

Yea, and that in their moſt ancient hand-written Originals: do they not, for ought you hauehave ſeene òr heard to p. 36the contrary?

PAP.

Good. But what of all this?

PROT.

You ſhall ſee anone. In the meane time tell me onelyonly whether they who writ ſince Rhegino, and Marianus his time, alledge Rhegino, or Marianus for the author of it?

PAP.

aaLocis ſuprà citatis.Bergomenſis, Roleuinck, Trithemius, Turrecremate, bbNauclerus vol 2. Chronogr. generat. 17 Antoninus part. 2. hiſt. Tit. 11. cap. 1. ſect. 8.and ſuch like, alledge Gratian for the author of it. But I do not remember that any hiſtoriographer alledgeth Rhegino, or Marianus Scotus, for it.

PROT.

If this touching Anaſtaſius the ſecond, may be in the moſt ancient hand-written Originals of Rhegino, and Marianus Scotus, though they, who hauehave written ſince their times, alledge them not for authors of it: why may not the other touching Pope Ioane, be in the moſt ancient hand-written Originals of Marianus Scotus, though they who writ ſince his time, alledge not him for the authour of it? HaueHave you not another argument?

PAP.

Yes:ccLib. 3. de Ro. Pont cap. 24. for Bellarmine writes: That he who ſet forth Krantius Metropolis at Colen in the yeare 1574. doth witneſſe, In antiquiſſimis exemplaribus Mariani Scoti non haberi Ioannem foeminam. That in the ancient copies of Marianus Scotus there is no mention of Ioane the woman.

PROT.

And what was he that ſet forth Krantius, can you tell me that? doth Bellarmine, orddLib. citato nu. 27. pag. 397. N. D. (who twangs on the ſame ſtring with Bellarmine) name him?

PAP.

No, but what is that to the purpoſe? He, whoſoeuer he was, witneſſeth ſo much. And is not that enough?

PROT.

No beleeue me: No reaſon that a nameleſſe fir ſhould be credited againſt all printed copies, eſpecially if it be true, whicheeLib. 4. de Ro. Pont. cap. 13. Bellarmine ſaith, in another caſe: Author ſine nomine, eſt ſine authoritate, A man without a name, is without credit;ffLib. 1. de Matrimonio. ca 17. and, Canon à concilio cuius ne nomen quidem extet, facilè contemni poteſt. A Canon out of a Councel whoſe name is not knowne, may very well be skorned. But would you know why Bellarmine and N. D. did not name him? Queſtionleſſe, not for that they knew not what his name was: but becauſe he was but a baſe fellow, a Printer, a poore Batchler of the p. 37law. A man of ſmall eſteeme in the world: for he is named in the firſt page of the booke, Gerwinus Calenius Lippienſis, and his whole ſtile is no greater, then Legum Licentiatus. And what was ſuch a fellow, to carry away ſuch a matter as this, vponupon his bare word? But which is more to be marked, this fellow barely ſaith (without any proofe in the world) that the manuſcripts of Marianus Scotus, which are extant, diſcouer the falſhood of them who put this ſtory into the printed Marianus implying, that all Manuſcripts, not the ancient only, want it. Which neither Bellarmine, nor N. D. durſt or dare auouch, the contrary being confeſſed directly by Baronius, and may out of themſelues be gathered by conſequence. Beſides, he ſaith as much for clearing of Sigebert, as Marianus Scotus, forggAnnot. in lib. 2. Krantij Metrop. theſe are his very words: Quae hic Author de Iohanne foemina refert, in odium Romanorum pontificum conficta fuiſſe ab illis, quos ipſe deceptus ſequitur, vt alios omittamus quos Onuphrius in Platinam ſcribens recenſet, teſtantur Marianus Scotus & Sigebertus, quorum quae ſuperſunt M. S. exemplaria, fraudem illorum detegunt qui eorum impreſſis voluminibus id inſeruer̄t. That this, which the author hereof reports touching Pope Ioane, is but counterfet ſtuffe, deuiſed to make the Pope odious: to ſay nothing of ſuch proofes as Onuphrius giues in his Annotations vponupon Platina, Marianus Scotus and Sigebert do teſtify: whoſe Manuſcripts remaining on record, diſcouer their falſhood, who hauehave chopt this tale into their printed volumes. And yet neither Bellarmin, nor N. D. durſt alledge him to proue that Sigebert is corrupted.

PAP.

Peraduenture they durſt hauehave alledged him ſo that purpoſe alſo, though they did not: for doubtleſſe there is no ſuch ſtorie in Sigebert.

PROT.

Why? But all the printed copies do conuince you of ſhameleſſe lying, in ſo ſaying. For thushhSigebert Gē blacenſis in Chronico ad an 854 printed at Paris. 1513. they reade: Iohannes Papa Anglicus, fama eſt hunc Iohannem foeminam fuiſſe & vni ſoli familiari cognitam qui eam complexus eſt, & grauis facta peperit Papa exiſtens. Quare eam inter Pontifices non numerant quidam, ideo nomini numerum non facit. Iohn the Engliſh Pope. The report is, that this Iohn was a p. 38woman, and that one only, who vſed to lie with her, knew ſo much: and that at length, euen in the time of her Papacy ſhe was deliuered of child. Whereupon it is that ſome reckon her not among the Popes, and that there is not one Pope Iohn the more in number for her. What ſay you, is it not euen thus?

PAP.

I confeſſe the printed copies make for you in this alſo. But in the ancient, true, and approued copies of Sigebert in writing, this which you talke of is not. Aliquis impudens nebulo interpolauit ſcripta eius. Some paltry fellow hath bene tampering with his writings,iiLib. ſuprà citato. pag. 110. as Bernartius notes. Marry whether it was Geffrey the Monke, or one Robert, who continued the ſtory of Sigebert for ſome years, I know not: but betweene them it is as kkAnnot. in Plat in vit. Ioh. 8.John 8Onuphrius ſuppoſeth. And I am ſure Sigebert neuer writ it. llBernartius loco citato.Cui rei adſerendae fidus, & adpoſitus mihi teſtis eſt Gilbertus Genebrardus, which is witneſſed very fully by Genebrard.

PROT.

Themm9. q. 3. patet. in Gloſſa Ioh. Andreae Familiaris eſt haec probatio quum Papa alium Papā adducit in teſtē. Canoniſts, when Popes alledge Popes for proofe, do note: that it is, familiaris probatio. Meaning ſuch belike, as that in the prouerb, Aske my fellow if I be a theefe. And ſo me thinkes is this of yours, which is fetched from your fellow Genebrard. But what ſaith Genebrard for your purpoſe?

PAP.

nnLib. 4 Chronolog. ad ann. 855.Genebrard ſaith, there be many Manuſcripts of Sigebert, wherein this is not.

PROT.

Yea, but that is the queſtion. And how doth Genebrard proue it? Names he any place where they are, or any perſon who hath ſeene them?

PAP.

No not he, butooLib. citato nu 27. pag. 397. N. D. doth, for in the Monaſterie of Gemble in Flaunders, there is extant (ſaith N. D.) the originall of Sigebert, which wants this ſtorie.

PROT.

What? the originall of Sigebert? Who told N. D. that the original of Sigebert was in that Monaſtery? or was he there and ſaw it with his owne eyes?

PAP.

N. D. ſaith nought of that. But you may hauehave further proofe thereof out ofppLib. 4. de Rō. Pont. cap. 24. Bellarmine: for he writes that Molanus a Doctor of Louaine ſaw the copie.

PROT.

But Bellarmine ſaith not, that Malanus iudged it p. 39to be the originall of Sigebert: which yet N. D. auoucheth as confidently, as if he had held the candle while Sigebert wrote it. Neither doth Bellarmine tell vsus, to whom Molanus told this: or in what booke he writ this. So that yet there is no iuſt proofe brought, that ſo much as one copie wants it, much leſſe that it is foiſted into ſuch copies as hauehave it.

PAP.

Is there not? hearken then to Florunondus, aaProtaſius Frā ciſcani or dinis decus, ad ſtringendam fidem prius iurciurando deuinctus, mihi obteſtatus eſt, &c. Florim. cap. 5. nu. 5.who writes, that one Protaſius, the credit of the order of Franciſcans, ſware to him, that he ſaw ſuch a booke in that Monaſterie; and that reading it all ouer, he found no word touching ſuch a Pope.

PROT.

This would hauehave moued me ſomewhat to beleeue, that the copie in that Monaſterie wants this, if Florimondus had ſworne for the ſatisfying of his reader, touching the truth of his report: as he vrged the Franciſcan to ſweare to him for the iuſtifying of that which he told. But Florimondus deliuers it barely of his word. And I hauehave found him oft falſe of his tongue. Wherefore I cannot truſt him.bbCap. 27 nu 6. extat adhue Michaelis ad Nicolaum epiſtola, &c. Florimondus would make vsus beleeue, that Michael the Emperours letter ſent to Pope Nicolas, wherein the Emperour obiecteth whatſoeuer might found to the diſgrace of the Romane ſea, is extant to this day: yetccAnnal. tom. 10 ad an. 865. nu. 75. Non extant ipſae blaſphemae Michaelis ad Imperatorem literae—traditae ſunt igni. Baronius teſtifieth that they are not extant. He writes, that the Pope burnt them. Yea Florimondus himſelfe in anotherddChap. 10 nu. 4. chapter (forgetting the prouerbe, Mendacem eſſe memorem oportet) confeſſeth, that they are loſt. Yet be it ſo, that the copie which is in that Monaſterie wants this. Vnleſſe Florimondus can proue that it is the originall, or truly copied out of the originall, he ſpeaks not to the point, as I ſhall ſhew by and by.

PAP.

Yea but he proues that it is the very originall it ſelfe. For there (aseeFlorimond. cap. citat. nu. 5. he ſaith) Sigebert liued, there he wrote this booke with his owne hand, there he left it at his death as a monument of his louelove. There it is ſhewed by the Monkes to ſuch as come thither, for arare and ancient monument.

PROT.

Sigebert liued not there, when he writ that book. He writ both that, and many others, in the Monaſtery of S. Vincentius, within the citie of Metenſis. Which I ſpeake not of mine owne head, as Florimondus doth, but out offfSigebertus eū in coenobio S. Vincentij. Metenſi ad inſtruendos pueros eſſet poſitus, ſcripſit Hiſtoriarū lib. Trithē. de ſcript. Eccleſiaſticis, verbo, Sigebertas. Trithemius. p. 40For in Trithemius you may reade ſo.

PAP.

Yet you cannot diſproue Florimondus in that which he ſaith of his dying there: and bequeathing of that booké by his will, to that Monaſterie for a legacie.

PROT.

No indeed. But neither can he proue his owne ſaying. Now you know that Actori, non reo, incumbit probatio: The plaintiffe, & not the defendant, muſt bring in his proofe. That which is nakedly affirmed, is ſufficiently anſwered whē it is barely denied. Si dicere, probare eſt: pari ratione, inficiari, refutare eſt: as you may reade inggLib. 3. de Rō. Pont. cap. 20. Bellarmine.

PAP.

Why, but the Monkes of that houſe do ſhew it to all commers as Sigeberts owne.

PROT.

That I beleeue. For I hauehavehhVergerius an notat in Catalogum haeret. Romae conflatum. An. 1559. fol. 17. read of a Monk, who gaue out, that he had brought from the Eaſt ſome of the ſound of the bels which hung in Salomons temple.iiIbid. And that he could ſhew among other reliks, ſome of the haires which fell from the Seraphicall Angell, when he came to imprint the fiue wounds of Chriſt in S. Francis bodie. And I hauehave kkBellonius obſeruat. lib. 2. cap 83.read of others, who ſhew the Pilgrims that go to Ieruſalem a three cornerd ſtone, and beare them in hand that it is that very ſtone whereofllPſal. 118. 22.Ps 118:22 Dauid ſpake, ſaying, The ſtone which the builders refuſed, is the head of the corner.

PAP.

Tuſh, thoſe Monkes do but cozen folkes.

PROT.

No more do the Monkes of Gemble, in my opinion: though it may be, they are rather cozened, then cozeners. For many a Papiſt perſwades himſelfe he hath that, which indeed he hath not. As for example. Many Papiſts are perſwaded they hauehave that Syndon wherein Chriſts body was lapped, when it was interred, wherein (as they ſay) is to be ſeene to this day the picture of Chriſt: whereas indeed (mmGret… er. lib. …. de Cruc…, cap. 85. pag. 240. by ſome of their owne mens confeſſions) they hauehave but one made after that faſhion. Againe, many are perſwaded, they hauehave one of thoſe nailes, wherewithall Chriſt was nailed on the croſſe:nnIdem lib. 1. cap. 20. pag. 50. whereas they hauehave but one faſhionèd after that naile; or at moſt, ſome naile wherewithall ſome Martyr of Chriſt was tormented. And in like maner are they themſelues deceiued in their conceit of other relickes. But p. 41that which makes me moſt ſuſpicious of your Monkes of Gemble, is this. I hauehave read, that among many other goodly relickes which are ſhewed at Rome by the Popes commandement, there is a Bible ſhewed, which they ſay was written by S. Ierome himſelfe, euen with his owne hands: and yet one of your owne profeſſion profeſſeth freely, that he peruſing it throughly, found it was written by the commandement of one king Robert, and by a bungling ſcriuener. Illum ego diligentius inſpectum comperiſcriptum eſſe iuſſu regis (vt opinor) Roberti, chirographo hominus imperiti, ſaithaaDe donatione Conſtantini. Valla. Now I ſuppoſe, if we had acceſſe to Gemble in Flanders, perhaps we might find as much for diſcouering of their falſhood, in that which they report of the originall of Sigebert: as your fellow found for the diſcouering of the others falſhood, who gaue out, that the Bible which they ſhewed was of S. Ieroms writing.

PAP.

Suppoſe it be not the originall of Sigebert which is at Gemble: yet you will not denie (I hope) but that it is ſome ancient copie, which they eſteeme ſo much of.

PROT.

Be it ſo. But will you thereupon conclude, that the Author neuer writ it? I preſume you are not ſo ignorant, but you know, that words, ſentences, and memorable accidents, hauehave ſometimes by negligence, ſometimes by wilfulneſſe, bene left out of copies: as for example, the words (no not the Sonne of man, Marke 13. 32. whereon yourbbApologie … defence of Eccleſiaſticall ſubordination in England, cap. 12 fol. 200. Ieſuites as vponupon a chiefe foundation, build their doctrine of aequiuocation) were wanting in many Greeke copies, asccLib. 5. de fide, cap. 7. S. Ambroſe teſtifieth: and yet both you and we do hold opinion, that they were ſet downe by the Author in the firſt copie. In like ſort, the ſtorie touching Chriſts ſweating agonie, and the Angels comforting him, Luke 22. 43. 44. was not to be found in many copies, asddDe Trinitat. lib. 10. Hilary andeeLib. 2. contra Pelag. Ierome witnes: which came to paſſe, not for that it was neuer written by S. Luke, but (asffLib. 1. de verbo Dei. cap. 16. Bellarmine in part, andggBibl. ſanctas lib. 1. Sixtus Senenſis more fully notes) for that ſome ſimple Catholickes, fearing it made for the Arians, razed it out of their bookes. So the ſtorie of the adulterous woman, in Iohn the 8. washhIanſen Concord. Euang. cap 76. wanting in many Manuſcripts p. 42both Greeke and Latin, and namely in a Manuſcript ofiiEuſeb. lib. 3. hiſt. cap. 39. teſte Bella…. lib. 1. de verbo Dei, cap. 16. Euſebius: yet that doth nothing preiudice the truth of our printed copies at this day, in which it is: no not in the opinion of you that are Papiſts. For askkIbid. Bellarmine proueth out of Auſtine, this hiſtorie was blotted out of many books, by the enemies of Gods truth. In much like ſort (it ſeemeth) as the words of Aelfricus, which make againſt tranſubſtantiation, were cut out of a fragment of an Epiſtle of his, in the library of Worceſter, asllActs and Monuments allegations againſt the 6. artic. pag. 1304. edit. 1570. M. Foxe proueth euidently. And as this ſtory of Pope Ioane is cut out of a very faire**Lib 5. Manuſcript of Ranulfus Ceſtrenſis, which is to be ſeenellAn. 1606. at this day in the library of New Colledge in Oxford.

PAP.

Is this ſtorie torne (indeed) out of Ranulfus Ceſtrenſis in New Colledge in Oxford? Who thinke you was ſo mad?

PROT.

Why, who but a Papiſt? For do notmmIndex lib. prohib. per Clementem 8. De correctione lib. they giuegive direction, that quae famae proximorum, & praeſertim Eccleſiaſticorum, & Principum detrahunt, corrigentur at que expurgentur? That ſuch things ſhould be altered or put out, which tend to the diſcredite of the Clergie? And doth not this touch at quicke their Eccleſiaſticall ſtate? Doth not Poſſeuine aduiſe, that thennIoh. Neuiſanus Sylua N…ptialis. p. 319. note in Iohn Neuiſan the Lawyer, which mentioneth Pope Ioane, ſhould be razed out? Dele (ooIn Apparat. ſacro verbo, Ioh Neuiſanus. ſaith he) quia Iohannes haec foemina chimera eſt, & impoſtura calumniatorum: Blot it out, or rend it out, quoth Poſſeuine: for it is but a fiction, and a forgery.

PAP.

You are too ſuſpitious of Papiſts. But if theſe anſwers, whereon I hauehave hitherto inſiſted, pleaſe you not, let it be as you would hauehave it, that all theſe Hiſtorians writ ſo.ppOnuph. annot. in Platin. in vit. Ioh 8. per vt aiunt, & tradunt earn relert. …John 8 yet I denie, that any credit is herein to be giuen unto them, becauſe they report it but by heareſay, with vt aſſeritur.

PROT.

That is falſe. For Marianus Scotus reports it ſimply without vt aſſeritur, as before I ſhewed. And Laonicus Chalcocondylas reports it as a certaine truth, ſaying, Conſtat, &c. So doth Rauiſius Textor, andqqBarthol Caſſa…aeus 2. part. catalogi gloriae mundi, non a conſideratio. Turrecremat. ſum. de Eccleſ. part. 2. lib. 4. cap. 20. Caelius Rhodiginus Antiqua… Lectionū. lib. 8. cap. 1. others.

PAP.

That which you ſay of Marianus Scotus, is true, if we were to be iudged by the printed copie, which Heroldus ſet out. But I can aſſure you, that Heroldus vnconſcionably corrupted p. 43this place, and many others. For it is thusuuLeo Papa … bijt. Kal. Aug. Huic ſucceſit loanna mulier an. a … 5. dieb. 4. Haec in codice impreſſo Heroldi opera qui mala fide locum hunc cū alijs multis corrupit. Nam in ſcripto codice ex quo prodijt prima editio ita legitur: Iohannes qui, vt aſſeritur, fuit mulier written in the written copie, after which the firſt edition was printed. Ioh anne…s …ui vt aſſeritur, fuit mulier. Iohn, who as the report goes, was a woman.