The Abatement of Popish Brags Pretending Scripture to be Theirs, Dialogue

The Abatement of Popish Brags Pretending Scripture to be Theirs · Dialogue

p. 1A DIALOGVE BETWIXT A PROTESTANT AND A PAPIST: Wherein is manifeſted, the Papiſts Brag, that Scripture maketh for them.

Proteſtant.

OH well met once againe! where hauehave you bin that I neuer ſaw you ſince wee talked about Pope Ioane? Are you the ſame man for Religion, that you was then?

Papiſt.

Yea truely, or rather more reſolute, and confident.

Prot.

What new arguments hauehave you lighted on to increaſe your reſolution and confidence? for my part, I am eueryevery day further out of louelove with your Religion, then other.

Pa.

The Arguments which hauehave doubled my reſolution p. 2and confidence are diuers, wherof the firſt is this: aaAllen Apology of the Seminaries, c. 5. f. 58That I find ſentence giuen for vsus Catholikes againſt you Proteſtants in all the Tribunals of Gods Church, I finde that all the Writings of the Saints in Heauen profeſſe for vsus.

Prot.

What? the Writings of the Prophets and of the Apoſtles? and of the Fathers in the Primitiue Church? and of the Councels? Doe you finde that all profeſſe for you?

Pa.

Yea, all of them: bbCampian, rat, 10.Quaecunque vel opera, vel fragmenta ſuperſunt eorum qui diſiunctiſsimis terris Euangelium ſeuerunt, omnes nobis vnam fidem exhibent quam hodie Catholici profitemur. There is not a booke, nor a piece of a booke extant, written by the firſt Preachers of the Goſpel, whenſoeuer, or how far ſo euer they liued one from another, but it giues witneſſe to the Catholike Faith which wee profeſſe at this day.

Prot.

Can you make proofe thereof vntounto mee, and I will bee of your Religion?

Pa.

That I can; and I will firſt begin with Scriptures: for I am of ccRock of the Church, Ch. 8. p. 193.Doctor Saunders opinion, That there are moſt plaine Scriptures in all points for the Catholike Faith, and none at all againſt the ſame. And of ddMotiue 48.Doctor Briſtoes mind, whoſe words theſe are; Moſt certaine it is, that from the beginning of Geneſis to the end of the Apocalips there is no Text that makes for you, nor againſt vsus but all for vsus.

Prot.

Say you ſo? Verily, and if the Scriptures be for you, I will be with you: for I like well of eeEpist. 80.Saint Baſils motion to one with whom hee had a controuerſie; Stemus arbitratu inſpiratae à Deo Scriptura, & p. 3apud quos inueniuntur dogmata diuinis oraculis conſona, illis omnino veritas adiudicetur ſententiae. Let vsus ſtand to the arbiterment of holy Scripture, and let them be thought to hauehave the truth on their ſide whoſe opinions are found to be agreeable to Scriptures. But let mee tell you a word or two by the way, and they are theſe▪ viz. That you are not more thorowly perſwaded of the truth of your two Doctors ſpeeches, then I am of a Gentlemuns ſpeech of our Religion, who being importuned by an idle Queſtioniſt of your ſide, to tell where our Religion was before Luthers time, returned him this anſwere▪ That our Religion was alwaies in the Bible, where your Religion neuer was. In which perſwaſion I am the more confirmed by this, That there ffTeſte Eſpentao Comment. in Tit. c. 1. p. 104. 105.Titus 1are of your ſelues (no fooles I wiſſe) who write, that ſome among you, Poene peceatum putant Scripturas legere, ne ſic ſiant haeretici: Doe thinke it almoſt a ſinne to read the Scriptures, leaſt by reading of them they ſhould proue hereticks. For if your Religion were in the Bible, and that in ſo plaine manner as you brag, why ſhould any of you bee ſo afraid of opening a Bible▪ why did one of your ggApud Haſſenmullerum. Hiſt. Ieſuit. ord. cap. … p. 428.Ieſuits confeſſe, that Lectis Bebliotu…t cicius haereticum Lutheranum, quam Catholicum Romanum facit: The reading of the Bible makes rather Hereticall Lutherans, then Romau Catholikes? Why ſuffer you this marginal Note, hhConc. 3. de Lazaro; printed at Baſil 1530.Nunc ex…udit hareſies, to be ſet ouer theſe words of Chryſosta…, …g…oratio ſcripturarum peperit haereſes.

Pa.

I meane not to take vponupon mee the iuſtifying of eueryevery mans priuate conceits or ſpeeches; but p. 4what I my ſelfe hauehave ſaid, all that ſhall bee made good. I will proue vntounto you the troth of our Religion by the Bible.

Prot.

Now (indeede) I am afraid you are bewitched with that damnable opinion, which of later yeeres hath runne currantly among you, viz. Sunt iiPighius Hierarch. Eccleſ. l. 3. …. 3. & 5. c. 3. Simanea Inſtit. Cathol. c. 57. nu. 12.Sir 50:3Sir 50:5ſcriptura V…lut naſus cereus, qui ſe her ſum, illorſum, & in quam volueris partem trahi, retrahi, fingi que facile permittit, & tanquam plumbea quadam Lesbi… …diſicationis regula, quam no… … difficile accommodare ad quiduis volueris. The Scriptures are like a noſe of waxe, which may bee writhen this way, or that way, backward, or forward as a manwould would hauehave it. And with that of Quintinus the Pariſian kkIn Arg. lib. de pr…ſcip…. adu. here. per Tertul.Doctor, commended by Pamelius, who writes thus. llNot▪ in Tertul▪ de pr…ſcrip. adu▪ har…t. c. 39. nu. 237. iuxta edit. Pamel.Tam facile eſt, im… facilius eſt adres profanas & impias pr… bandas detorquere ſanctam ſcripturam, quam facile eſt & pedibus, ac ſemi-pedibus aut penthememeribus Virgilianis Epithalmia, ſen quiduis aliud in vnum congerere. It is as caſie, yea it is more eaſie to wreſt the Scripture to the prouing of any villany or impiety: then to make a LoueLove Song, by ſnatching here a patch and there a patch of a Verſe out of Virgil. And that in confidence hereof you hope to make a ſhew of ſomewhat out of the Bible for the prouing of your Religion: otherwiſe I know not what ſhould moue you to beginne with Scripture. You hauehave forgotten (I beleeue) that mmMoti…s 48.Doctor Briſtow deſcribing the meanes to make plaine demonſtration, that Heretikes hauehave no euidence, but you all, aduiſeth his Agents to labour ſtill to get the Heretickes out of their weake and falſe Caſtle of holy p. 5Scripture, into the plaint fields of Councels and Fathers. For all his bragging of the Scriptures, hee put but a little truſt in them: hee was loth to hauehave them in the foreward.

Pa.

But I am content they match in the foreward, if you will beleeue me.

Prot.

Why, but I pray you then place the beſt formoſt. And if we fall into diſpute with Saint Peters Supremacie, trouble mee not with ſuch Texts as ſome of your nnn Simanea Inſtitut. Cathol. c. 44. nu. 2. & 3. impreſ. Valiſsoleti. A. 1552.Rabbies alledge for it. Tell me not that our Sauiour Chriſt ſaid vntounto S. Peter onelyonly, Duc in altum: Launch into the deepe. No… potuiſti vna hora vigilare mecum? Couldſt thou not watch one houre with mee? Sequere me, Follow me. Neither tell mee in way of prouing the ſame, That S. Peter cut off Malous care. And if from that wee fall to argue about your Popes omnipotency, alledge me not the firſt verſe of the firſt Chapter of Geneſis for it, as your ooExtro. de Maeiori. & obed. Cap. vnā ſanctamPope Boniface the eight did: neither yet the ſixteenth verſe of the ſaid Chapter, as another of your Popes, euen ppExtra de Maeiorit. & obed. Cap ſ…lita.Innocentius the third did. Nor that in Ieremy, Chap. 1. v. 10. as the ſame Innocentius qqIbid.did. Let mee notheere out of your mouth, as making to that purpoſe, That the ſpirituall man iudgeth all things, and himſelfe is iudged of no man. Loe: Two ſwords here. Returne thy ſowrd into his place. Know you not that we ſhall iudge the Angels? which are the ſpecial Texts wheron your rrLoca ſupra Citato.Boniface reſted. Neither would I willingly heare of ſſSentronBaronius Text, Act. 10. Kill and eate. For that which ttIbid.Polidore Virgil obſerued to be the tricke of Popiſh Canoniſts is found practiſed by thoſe whomake▪ p. 6theſe Arguments. viz. Non ſecus iſts aliquoties de… quent ſacr as ſcriptur as quò volunt, ac ſutores for did as ſolent dentibus extendere pelles. Theſe Canoniſts do… now and then ſtretch the Scriptures to their purpoſe, as ſhooemakers doe their greaſie ouer-leathers with their teeth.

Pa.

Some of theſe Texts afford Arguments good enough for the concluſions for which they are brought. Yet feare not you: for I meane not to trouble you with any of them.

Prot.

Neither, if wee ahue occaſion to talke of Communicating in one kind, will you (I hope) uuRoffenſ. adu. Luth. Act. 16. Eckius in Enchirid. Tit. de Communione ſub altera ſpecie.Acts 16alledge vntounto mee, for proofe of your practiſe, the words in our Pater Noſter, GiueGive vsus this day our daily bread. Nor xxBell. 4. de Euch▪ Cap. 24.tell me, That our Sauiour Chriſt, Ioh. 6. multiplied l…aues, but multiplied no drinke. Nor yyEckius loco citato.cite 1 Cor. 5. 7, 8. Our Paſch Chriſt is immolated. Let vsus therefore feaſt in the Azymes of ſinceritie and veritie. And if wee fall to argue by caſe, whether it be meet that boyes and wenches ſhould make Monkiſh vowes of obedience, poucrtie, and chaſtitie: you will not preſſe mee with ſuch Texts as zzlib. 2. de Monach. Cap. 35.Bellarmine ſtands vponupon, where he diſputes the point. You will not tell me, It is written by Ieremy, Lament. 3. 27. It is good for a man to beare the yoke from his youth. And that our Sauiour Chriſt ſaid, Matth. 19. 14. Suffer little children to come vntounto mee. Neither will you in way of prouing, That boyes and wenches may enter into Monaſteries againſt their parents mindes: alledge that Text in Gen. 12. Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy fathers … Nor that in Deut. 33. 9. Hee that ſaid vntounto p. 7his father and to his mother, I know you not, &c. Not that in the Pſalme 45. 10. Forget thine owne people, and thy fathers houſe, and the King ſhall hauehave pleaſure in thy beautie. Nor that in S. Matth. 10. 37. Hee that loueth father or mother more then mee, is not worthy of mee. Nor that in S. Luke 9. 60. &c. Let the dead bury the dead. Which are the onelyonly Scriptures alledged by aaLib. 2. de Minach. Cap. 36.Bellarmine in that Controuerſie. For theſe Texts are ſo far from prouing any ſuch coucluſions, that a man may truly ſweare, Hee and his with had made a fray who alledged them.

Pa.

I will not trouble you with this neither.

Prot.

Nor with that, Matth. 7. 6. GiueGive yee not that which is holy to dogs, in way of prouing: bbStaphylus in Apolog.That ignorant perſons may not reade the Scriptures. Nor with that in Geneſis. God for Adams ſinne curſed the earth, but not the water, in way of prouing. ccEngliſh Feſtiual feria 4. poſt foſtum palmarū.That it is lawfull for a man to eate Fiſh in Lent, but not Fleſh. You will make mee no ſuch Concluſions as theſe. ddLedeſma de diuin ſcript▪ quauis lingua non legend. C. 22.Our Sauiour Luke 4. opened the booke and read a few verſes in it, and afterwards cloſed it. Ergo, Diuine Seruice is not to bee ſaid in a knowne language. eeInnocent. 1. … piſt. ad E…uperi… vide Gratian d. 82. propoſui…l….Be yee holy, for I am holy. Ergo, Miniſters of the Goſpel may not lie with their wiues. God ffBell. l. 1. de ſanct, beatit. Cap. 20.ſaid vntounto Iobs friends, Goe vntounto my ſeruant Iob. Ergo, Scripture affordeth a particular precept, binding men to Inuocation of Saints. ggIbid.God told Iobs friends, That Iob ſhould pray for them. Ergo, the Scripture affordeth a particular example of praying to Saints. hhIbid.God promiſed Iobs friendes, That hee would accept of Iobs prayer, &c. Ergo, The Scripture affordeth a particular example of bleſſing to ſuch p. 8as pray to Saints. iiGreg. de valeu…ia de Idol… lat. Chap. 7.S. Peter condemneth the vnlawfull ſeruice of Idols, 1 Pet. 4. 3. Ergo, ſome Idolatry is lawfull. kk1. Cor. 6. 41 Cor 6:4S. Paul commaunds to ſet the contemptible in the Church to iudge. llBell. l. 5. Rom. Pont. Cap. 7.Ergo, The ancient Chriſtians might, if their abilities had ſerued, hauehave depoſed from the Empire both the Heathen and Hereticall Emperours.

Pa.

The Concluſions which I will make ſhall ariſe naturally from the Text: for they ſhall bee drawne from the expreſſe wordes, which are one thouſand times more cleere for vsus, then they are for you, as mmApol. of the Engliſh Sem. fol. 57.Cardinall Allen affirmes. Yea, very many of the Texts which I will cite, ſhall bee ſo open and euident, that vnleſſe you deny them to be text of Scripture, you ſhall not bee able to auoide them, and the reſt ſhall be ooAnſwer to M. Charkspref. p. 57ſuch as you cannot ſhift without glozes and fond interpretations of your owne.

Prot.

Perhaps you will take them to be open and euident for your purpoſe, which neither ſeeme to mee: nor are indeed ſuch in themſelues. You know the Prouerbe; As the foole thinketh, ſo the bell ringeth. I doubt not but thoſe **Diſtrictiſ…imi Monachi.Puritan Monkes, ppIoh. de Polemar. Orat. in Cone Baſil apud Binnium … 4. Conc. p. 385.who made themſelues woodden Croſſes, and carried them on their backes continually, making all the world laugh at them, thought the Text, Matth. 10. Hee that taketh not a Croſſe, and followeth mee, is not worthy of mee: a plaine and worthy Text for the approuing of their practiſe. And it may be that the French-men, qqTeſte Azono To. 2. Inſtit. Moral. lib. 11. Cap. 2. 14. quaritur.who for the proofe of their Salike-Law, alledged the words of our Sauiour, Luk. 12. 27. Conſiderate Lilia quomodo creſcunt: non laborant, ne que p. 9nent. Conſider the Lillies of the field how they grow, they labour not, neither doe they ſpin: concluding thereon, Lilia Francorum non deberi niſi nebilibus qui non laborant: nec deberi niſi maſculis qui non nent. That the Flower-de-luces of France (meaning the Crowne of France) belongs to none but Nobles, who worke not for their liuing; and thoſe men, not women (who are Spinſters) thought they had a good text in hand for their purpoſe. Certainly your louſie S. Francit, was not aſhamed to ſay, that the words of our Sauiour, Matth. 25. 40. Quod vni ex minoribus meis feciſtis, mihi feciſtis. Whatſoeuer you hauehave done to one of theſe little ones, you hauehave done it vntounto mee: were ſpoken by him rrLib. Conformitat. B. Franciſe… per Pi ſaum …di. Bonon. 1590. l. …. Fructus. 1. fol. 13. Col. 3.Col 3ſpecialiter, yea ſſLib. 1. Fructius fol. 113. Col. 3Col 3ad literam, of his Frier-Minorits. And your ttLib. 1. Fructus 9. fol. 127. Col. 3.Col 3Piſanus Writer of that louſie Friers Alcaron will needs threaten vsus downe, That the words of S. Paul, Galat. 6. 16. As many as walke according to this Rule, peace ſhall bee vponupon them and mercy: were meant of Francis his rule. HaueHave you not read that a Sorboniſt finding it written at the end of S. Pauls Epiſtles, Miſſa eſt, &c. uuBee Hyue cap. 3. fol. 93. 94.bragd hee had found the Maſſe in his Bible? And that another reading in S. Iohn 1. 42. inuenimus Meſsiam, x drew thence the ſame concluſion. In yyTeſte Stella de modo Concionandi cap. 6.Salaminca a Frier tooke vponupon him to proue, That the name of the Virgin Mary was ſpoken of Gen. 1. where wee read, that God called the gatherings together of the waters Maria. I doubt not but he thought it an open and euident text for his turne. zzTeſte Malanthont. Oral. de … Elequentia.In another place, another Frier ſpeaking of the words, Ge. 14. 18. Rex Salem panem ac vinū pertulit: fell into a long diſcourſe of the nature of Salt.▪ the nature of Salt. … p. 10beleeue he could hardly hauehave been perſwaded that Salem there, had not ſignified Salt. Your D. Poynes who writes, aaPreface to his booke of the Sacram.That it was foretold in the Old Teſtament, That the Proteſtants were a malignant Church, alledging for proofe thereof, 2. Chr. 24. 19. where, according to our vulgar Tranſlation we read thus, Mittebatque prophet as vt reuerterentur ad Dominum, quos proteſtantes illi audire nolebant, thought an hundred for one, that the text was plaine. And it may bee that Pariſh Prieſt of yeeres, who being at controuerſie with his Pariſhioners about pauing ſome plot of ground, and alledging the wordes in Ier. 17. 18. to proue that he was not bound to paue any place, ſaying: Paueant illi, ego non paueant: was not in ieſt, but in good earneſt, thinking the letter of the text made euidently for him. Verily I am perſwaded, that that ccSee Sixt. Senenſ. Bibl. Sanctae l. 5. Annot. 116.Painter, whoſoeuer he was, who firſt painted Moſes with a paire of hornes: making him, as the Iewes ſay, like a deuil: thought the text in Exod. 34. 30. where you read, Faciem Moſes eſſe cornutam, Moſes face was horned; a plaine warrant for his picturing him ſo. And I make no queſtion, d Theodorus Stadytus Epi. 4. ad Naucratium qua extat. To. 3. Bibl. vel pal. Edit. 3. Col. 216.but d they who make the world beleeue they hauehave the two keyes of S. Peter at Rome, ſhewing them ſometimes that they may bee adored: if they were vrged to make proofe how S. Peter came by thoſe keyes, would alledge the words of the Euangeliſt, To thee will I giuegive the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen, as an open and euident text for that matter.

Pa.

What adoe make you about had I wiſts? I tell you once againe, eeGrounds of the New Religion, part. 2. cap. 18. p. 197.The Scriptures which I will alledge ſhall be plaine, and the expoſitions ſuch, as p. 11you ſhall take no acceptions againſt. For, for the the truth of our expoſitions of holy Scripture, wee hauehave the continuall tradition of the Church: and the teſtimony and ſuffrage of all the holy Fathers, and of thouſands of Saints and learned men, who euer expounded it as we doe, and out of it gathered the ſelfe ſame doctrine and beliefe.

Prot.

No meruaile if this be ſo, that you ffBulla P… 4 ſuper forma profeſſ. …id. Conſtitut. 30. in Sum. Conſtitut. Sum. Pontif. a Greg. 9. vſus que ad Sixt. 5ſweare thē whole Colledge of your Cardinalls: all your Archbiſhops, Biſhops, Prieſts, Abbats, Priors, Friers, Graduats, that they ſhall neuer take the Scriptures in other ſenſe, or interpret it to others in other ſenſe, then that which the Fathers gaue thereof with ioynt conſent. But I meruell as much that you bluſh not in ſaying as you doe: as that they tremble not who adminiſter and take ſuch an oath: for as they wittingly giuegive occaſion of periury, who adminiſter ſuch an oath, and they periure themſelues who take ſuch an oath: ſo you apparently ſpeake ouer. Yet ſeeing you are ſo confident, let vsus fall to our worke roundly: And firſt let mee heare by you, what the Scriptures are which are ſo plaine for the proofe of your opinions: and when you hauehave done, you ſhall heare by me what plaine texts may be alledged for proofe of our opinions.

Pa.

ggEriſlow Motiue 48.Take then that for the firſt; hhMatt. 26.Matt 26Hoſt eſt corpus meum, Hic eſt ſanguis meus: This is my body; This is my bloud.

Prot.

For what opinion of yours is this Scripture ſo plaine?

Pa.

For the Reall preſence in the Sacrament, which you deny.

p. 12Prot.

Wee beleeue as well as you, That Chriſts fleſh and bloud are truely preſent, and truely receiued of the faithfull at the Lords Table. We iiArtie. relig. nn. 28, eait. 1562.teach the people, that Chriſtieorpus datur, accipitur, manducatur in Caena. The body of Chriſt is giuen (indeed and verily) and taken and eaten in the Lords Supper. kkL, Eltenſis Epiſeopus. Reſ…oſ. ad Cardinalia Bell. Apologiam. c. 1. pag. 11.The queſtion betweene vsus and you is de modo: about the manner of Chriſts preſence: and not de obiecto, whether hee bee preſent or no. You llHarding in his g. Article to M. Iewels Challenge fol. 99.ſay, Chriſt is in the Sacrament really, ſubstantially, corporally, carnally, naturally. Yea, mmApud Gratiamd 2. de Conſecrat. cap. 42. Ego Berengariusyou ſay, He is there ſenſualiter, ſenſibly: vt manibus ſacerdotum tractari, velfrangi, aut fidelium dentibus atteri poſsit: ſo that the Prieſts may handle him and breake him with their hands, and the faithfull may teare him with their teeth. Now this manner of preſence we deny: and the letter of the wordes which wee alledge proues not that. For Chriſt ſaid, This is my body; and not, This is my body in ſuch a manner. nnIn 3. part. Tho. ſuperquaeſt. 75. Artie. 1. agnoſcente Ioſeph Angles Flores Theolog. Quaeſt. in 4. ſent. q. 4. ae effectis Euch. Art. 1.Caietan your Cardinall confeſſeth, Non apparere ex Èuangelio coactivum aliquid quo poſsimus conuincere-haereticos ad intelligendum verba haec, Hoc eſt corpus meum, propriè: ſed tenendum hoc eſſe ſolùm ex authoritate Eccleſiae quae ita verba conſecrationis declarat. There is nothing in the Goſpel whereby an Hereticke may bee inforced to expound the words, This is my body, properly: but men are to beleeue ſo, becauſe the Church teacheth ſo. And ooContra Captiuit. Babilon. cap. 10. nu▪ 2.Fiſher Biſhop of Rocheſter confeſſeth, Neque vllum hîc (viz. in Matth.) verbum poſitum eſt, quo probetur in noſtra Miſſa veram fieri carnis & ſanguinis Christi praeſentiam. There is not a word in S. Matthews Goſpel whereby it can be proued, that p. 13Chriſt is really preſent in your Sacrament. Your ſecond inſtance had need be plainer.

Pa.

My ſecond inſtance is plaine enough: for ppAnſw. to M. Charks Preface p. 27.we hauehave expreſly, The bread which I will giuegive, is my fleſh, Ioh. 6. 51.

Prot.

For what opinion of yours are theſe words ſo plaine?

Pa.

For the former point: euen for the Reall preſence in the Sacrament. And yet qqIbid.you expound them, as if no more were meant by them, then that wee ſhould hauehave giuen vsus the ſigne of his fleſh onelyonly.

Prot.

We doe not expound them ſo: We rrRainold Confer. Cap. 2. diuiſ. 2. p. 67. & 68.ſay, That the wordes are meant of Chriſt himſelfe, the word that was made fleſh, Ioh. 1. 14. Wee expound them not of the ſigne of his fleſh. We teach, That ſſIoh. 6. v. 32.John 6:32the true bread, ttV. 33.the bread of God, which came downe from heauen, and giueth life vntounto the world, uuIoh. 6. v. 35. & 48.John 6:35John 6:48is Chriſt, xxV. 51.euen the fleſh, the very fleſh of Chriſt, that is, Chriſt incarnate: and that hee gaue vsus this bread to eate, not in the Sacrament, but vponupon the Croſſe. And this expoſition of ours is approued for good by Gabriel Biel, Lect. 84. ſuper Canon. Miſſae. By Nic. Cuſanus Epiſt. 7. ad Bohemos. By Caietan in 3. part. Tho. 9. 80. Art. vlt. By Ruard. Tapperus in explicat. Artic. 15. Louan. To. 2. By Heſſels, lib. de Communione ſub vnicaſpecie. Tract. 1. By Ianſen. Concord. Euang. cap. 59. as Bellarmine acknowledgeth, lib. 1. de Euch. cap. 5. And your ſelfe cannot with any reaſon maintaine the contrary, if you will bee tried by the expreſſe wordes. For you deny that Chriſt gaue bread at the celebration of this Sacrament. He gaue p. 14ſhewes of bread, not bread indeed, according to your learning. What is your third inſtance?

Pa.

yyAnſw. to M. Charks Preface, p. 27.We hauehave expreſly, touching the Apoſtles inequalitie, He that is great among you, let him be made as the younger, Luk. 22. whereas you ſay, There was none greater then other among them.

Prot.

Here is ſome little ſhew, and no ſubſtance. For it is plaine by the expreſſe wordes of our Sauiour, Matth. 20. 25. and Mark. 10. 41. That no more is meant by the wordes you cite then this, viz. Hee that would bee great among you, let him bee made as the younger, which makes nothing for you, nor againſt vsus. What is your fourth inſtance?

Pa.

zzIbid.Wee hauehave expreſly, A man is iuſtified by workes, and not by faith onelyonly, Iam. 2. 24. which is directly oppoſite to that which you hold, Man is not iuſtified by good workes, but by faith only.

Prot.

We doe not deny, that before men, and with men: A man may be iuſtified by workes. Wee deny only, That before God a man may be iuſtified by workes. Now Saint Iames ſpeaks of Iuſtification, which is before, or with men: not of that which is before God, wherof Saint Paul ſpeakes, from whom we gather our aſſertion. And that this is ſo, aaComment in Iam. 2. 24.Jas 2:24Tho. of Aquin confeſſeth, for Iacobus hîc loquitur de operibus ſequentibus fidem, quae dicuntur iuſtificare, non ſecundum quod iuſtificare dicitur inſtitiae infuſio; ſed ſecundum quod dicitur iuſtitiae exercitatio, vel ostenſio, vel conſummatio. S. Iames ſpeaks here of Iuſtification, as it is taken for manifeſtation and approuing of iuſtification, ſaith Thomas. And ſo, theſe wordes doe neither make any thing for you, nor againſt vsus. p. 15What is your fifth inſtance?

Pa.

bbAnſw. to M. Charks Prefece, pa. 28.We hauehave expreſly, Whoſe ſins yee forgiue, are forgiuen: Whoſe ſinnes yee retaine, are retained, Ioh. 20.

Prot.

And what of this? make theſe wordes againſt vsus?

Pa.

Yea, for ccIbid.you ſay, Prieſts cannot forgiue, or retaine ſins in earth.

Prot.

You ſay truely. **See a learned diſcourſe hereof in the Anſwere to a challenge made by a Ieſuit in Ireland. p. 109. &c.Wee beleeue that Miniſters (Prieſts as you call them) hauehave power to forgiue and retaine ſinnes on earth. The difference betweene vsus and you is about the manner, which is not determined by thoſe wordes, and about which you agree not among your ſelues. What is your ſixtinſtance?

Pa.

ddAnſw. to M. Charks Preface, p. 28.We hauehave expreſly, The doers of the Law ſhall be iuſtified, Rom. 2. 13. Yet you ſay, The doing therof iuſtifieth not Chriſtians.

Prot.

We ſay, That if a man can bring the Iuſtice which the Law requires, he ſhall be iuſtified thereby. But who can bring that, ſeeing in many things we ſin all? Iam. 3. 2. What is your ſeuenth inſtance?

Pa.

eeAnſw. to M. Charks Preface, p. 28.We hauehave expreſly, Vow yee, and render your vowes, Pſal. 75.

Prot.

And how then? makes this againſt vsus?

Pa.

Yo…, for ffIbid.you teach; Wee ſhould not vow, or if we vow, we ought to breake our vowes.

Prot.

We doe not; A man, according to our Religion, may vow in ſome caſes, and vponupon ſome occaſions, as is plaine by ggCaluin. Iuſtitut lib. 4. cap. 13our bookes, and acknowledged by hhLib▪ 2. de Monach. cap. 15.Bellarmine himſelfe: and, by our Religion, he needs not vow; for vouere nuſquam eſt praeceptum. p. 16Its no where commanded that wee ſhould vow, ſaith iiBell. lib. 2. de Monath. cap. 16.one. And Fateor quia Deus non praecipit, ſed tantum conſulit nobis vt aliquid illi v…ueamus, I confeſſe that God commaunds vsus not, but onelyonly counſells vsus to vow vntounto him, ſaith an kkAlfonſ. de Caſtro adu. haer.other of you. Againe, ll14. verba vo… … Trauerſe in his Anſw. to a Popiſh Treatiſe written to the Lords of the Council, p 173we teach, That when a man hath vowed a thing lawful, honeſt, and poſſible, he ought inuiolably to obſerue it. And how then makes this text more for you, then for vsus?

Pa.

mmAnſw to M. Charks Preface, p. 28.Wee hauehave expreſly, Keepe the traditions which you hauehave learned either by word, or by Epiſtle, 2 Theſ. 2. 15. yet, nnIbid.you ſay, The Apoſtles left nothing to the Church vnwritten.

Prot.

Wee ſay indeed, That the Apoſtles left no neceſſary tradition to the Church vnwritten: but wee doe not ſay, That S. Paul left no traditions to the Church of the Theſſalonians vnwritten by him to them. We grant, that he deliuered to the Theſſalonians traditions, which hee did not write in his Epiſtles which he writ to them. But what he deliuered by word to them, and not by way … Epiſtle, that was written either by other holy men of God, or by himſelfe in the Epiſtles which hee ſent to others. So that though hee deliuered to the Theſſalonians traditions, which he writ not in his Epiſtles ſent to them: it followes not thereon, that he left ſome vnwritten [neceſſary] traditions to the Church in generall. What is your next inſtance?

Pa.

ooAnſw to M. Charks Preface, p. 28.Wee hauehave expreſly, If thou wit enter into life, keepe the Commandements, Matth. 19. 17. Yet you ſay, The Commaundements cannot bee kept; yea, you ppIbid.ſay, We are not bound vntounto them.

p. 17Prot.

We confeſſe that we are bound to keepe the Commandements; And if any be deſirous to hauehave life euerlaſting, by doing ſome good thing, as this young man was, to whom Chriſt ſpake theſe words, Hee muſt keepe the Commandements. Yet wee ſay, It followes not. He that would hauehave life euerl… ſting by doing ſome good, muſt keepe the Commandements. Ergo, the Commandements may b… kept: for by▪ Gods Commandements wee learne what we ſhould doe.

Pa.

Yea but qqAnſw. to M. Charks Preface p. 28.we hauehave expreſly, That when the young man ſaid, hee had already kept the Commandements; it was ſaid vntounto him, …f thou wilt bee perfect, goe and ſell all things thou haſt, and giuegive to the poore, and follow mee. Which ſhewes there is one degree of life perfecter then another.

Prot.

Nay, not ſo: It rather ſhewes there is but one degree of life which is perfect, euen that which conſiſts in keeping the Commaundements; and (which is more) Counſells. For vponupon the young mans aſſe…eration, that he had kept all the Commandements from his youth, it is not ſaid: If thou wilt be more perfect; but, If thou wilt be perfect, as though there were no perfection attained vntounto by keeping the whole Law. But indeede the young man lied in ſaying, he had kept all the Commandements from his youth. Elſe our Sauiour muſt bee thought to hauehave ſpoken ouer, when hee ſaid, Ioh. 7. 19. Did not Moſes giuegive you a law, and yet none of you keepes the law? HaueHave you any moe inſtances?

Pa.

Yea, many: for rrPref ſupra …it.wee hauehave expreſly, worke your owne ſaluation with feare and trembling.

p. 18Prot.

And what gather you of that againſt vsus:

Pa.

Ibid.ſ That a man ſhould not make it of his beliefe, that hee ſhall bee ſaued without all doubt and feares.

Prot.

Why▪ may not a man feare to offend God, vnleſſe he doubt that he ſhall finally fall away from God? Are not thoſe wiues moſt fearefull to offend their husbands: and thoſe children moſt fearefull to offend their fathers: who are beſt aſſured of their husbands, and parents conſtant louelove vntounto them? Feare of Gods anger againſt vsus, by reaſon of our ſins, may well ſtand with aſſurance of ſaluation. Elſe, why did ttPſal. 2. 11.Ps 2:11Dauid require, That wee ſhould ſerue the Lord in feare, and reioyce in trembling? May a man tremble, and yet reioyce? and may hee not feare to offend, and yet be aſſured of fauour?

Pa.

Well, uuPraf. ſupracit.wee hauehave expreſly, That eueryevery man ſhall be iudged according to his workes, A poc. 20.

Prot.

Good: And ſo hauehave wee.

Pa.

Nay: xxIbid.you teach, That men ſhall be iudged only according to their faith.

Prot.

That is not true: yySee M. Cartwrights Anſw, to the Rhem. Matth. 25. 35.Matt 25:35We teach, that ſeeing it is moſt fitting for the nature and condition of iudgements, to take the euidence whereupon the ſentence ſhall bee pronounced, from ſuch things as are moſt notorious: the works good or euill being knowne both to Men and Angells, whereas faith, which hath her ſeat in the heart is only ſeene of the Lord: it is moſt conuenient for iuſtifying the truth of the Iudge before the world, that thoſe things ſhould bee giuen in euidence, which fall into the knowledge of the ſtanders by; eſpecially when the p. 19godly themſelues ſhall be admitted into part of the honour of our Sauiour Chriſts iudiciall ſentence againſt the reprobates. And for this cauſe it is (as we ſay) that our Sauiour at the latter day will ſay, Come yee bleſſed of my Father—For when I was hungry you gaue me meate—rather then, For that you hauehave beleeued in mee. HaueHave you any more to ſay?

Pa.

Yea: zzPraf. ſupra …it.Wee hauehave expreſly, That there remains a retribution, ſtipend, and pay to eueryevery good worke in heauen, Mark. 9. 1 Corinth. 3. Apoc. 22. Pſal. 118.

Prot.

And doe wee denie it? **See Trauerſe Anſw. to a Popiſh Treatiſe to the Lords of the Councel, p. 267.Wee beleeue no good deed ſhall be loſt: no not the beſtowing of a cup of cold water in the name of a diſciple. Wherefore this makes nothing againſt vsus.

Pa.

Yea, but aaIbid.you teach, Good workes done in Chriſt merit nothing.

Prot.

Yea, but it is one thing to teach, That good works done in Chriſt find retribution and paiment in heauen: and another thing to ſay, They merit ſome things: for retribution and ſtipends, and paies are as well giuen of curteſie, as of debt or merit. Wherefore we teach the former, and deny the latter. VVhat is your next inſtance?

Pa.

bbPref. cit. p. 29.Wee hauehave expreſly, That the affliction which Daniel vſed vponupon his bodie was acceptable in the ſight of God, Dan. 10.

Prot.

And what is that to vsus?

Pa.

Much: for ccIbid.you teach, That ſuch voluntary corporall afflictions are in vaine.

Prot.

But wee doe not. Wee teach with S. Paul, 1 Tim. 4. 8. that Corporall exerciſe (voluntarie corporall p. 20afflictions) are profitable to little. There is ſome good vſe of them. Not a man of vsus teacheth, that ſuch voluntary corporall afflictions as Daniel vſed, and to ſuch end as hee did vſe them are in vaine. HaueHave you not done?

Pa.

No: ddBriſtow Motiue 48.wee hauehave a plaine text, Gen. 48. God who hath fed mee from my youth vp euen to this day: The Angel who hath deliuered mee from all aduerſ…ie bleſſe theſe children. eeDowiſ…s Annotas. vponupon Gē. 48Which implies as much as if we would ſay, God and our Ladie bleſſe them.

Prot.

By the Angel, which is here praied vntounto, is not meant any created Angel: but the Angel of the euerlaſting Couenant, Chriſt Ieſus; as it is plaine by the ffSee marg. Notes on our Bibles vponupon Gen. 48.Gen 48circumſtances of the text, and by that teſtimony of the ggAthanaſ. orat. 4. adu. Arianos, p. 260 edit. Comelin. Graecolat. A. 1600. ci…il. l. 3 Theſauri, Nouatian, apud Tertul. de Trinitate c. 15 & 27.Fathers. And therfore this praier doth not iuſtifie your praier, God and our Lady bleſſe them. No man euer conceiued a praier after this manner; Det tibi Deus & Angelus, that is in effect, God and our Lady bleſſe them, ſaith hhLoco citato.Athanaſius.

Pa.

iiAnſw. to M. Charks Preface, p. 29. and Briflow Motiue 48.We hauehave expreſly: It is an holy cogitation to pray for the dead, 2. Mach. 12.

Prot.

Yea, but the Booke of Machabees is not Canonicall Scripture, as I ſhall proue vntounto you ere wee part. Now I looke for proofe at your hands out of the Canonicall Scripture.

Pa.

Why then, if I ſhould tell you, kkIbid.we read expreſly in the ſame Booke, that Ieremy the Prophet after hee was dead praied for the people of Iſrael: wherby is proued Interceſſion of Saints; you would put mee off with this, That the Scripture alledged by me is not Canonicall Scripture.

Prot.

I might doe ſo: yet I need not, for we deny p. 21not that Saints make interceſſion for vsus in generall. And your llLib. 1. de ſancta. beatit. c. 18.Bellarmine alledgeth this to that purpoſe only. Hee alledgeth it not either to proue Inuocation of Saints; or the interceſſion of Saints in particular.

Pa.

And what would you anſwere me if I vrged, That mmAnſw. to M. Charks Preface, p. 29.wee hauehave an expreſſe example of an holy man that offered ſacrifice for the dead, 2 Mach. 12.

Prot.

I would anſwere you to it; That the holy man you meane of, offered ſacrifice for the liuing and not for the dead. And for the full proofe thereof, I would referre you to Doctor Reinolds Readings vponupon the Apocrypha, praelect. 158.

Pa.

And what anſwere ſhould I looke to receiue of you vponupon mention, that Tobit. 12. nnPref. citas.wee read expreſly, That an Angel did preſent Tobias good workes and almes deeds before God.

Prot.

My anſwere to that ſhould bee, That the booke is Apocrypha.

Pa.

And is not the Booke of Eccleſiaſticus Apocrypha, ooGap. 16. 15.in which wee read expreſly thus: Omnis miſericordia faciet locum vnicuique ſecundum meritum operum; MercieMercy ſhall make a place to eueryevery man according to the merit of his workes?

Prot.

Yes: but I will vſe the exception in this caſe. The exception which I take is, that the wordes are cited out of a corrupt Tranſlation: for in the Greek, wherein Eccleſiaſticus was firſt written, there is no mention made of merit. To eueryevery pitlifull act of goodneſſe giuegive place, for eueryevery one ſhall find (not according to the merit of his works, but) according to his works, ſaith the Greeke.

p. 22Pa.

Indeed I confeſſe, the word merit is not in the Greeke: for the word merit is not Greeke, but Latine; yet the Greeke wordes are well tranſlated by the word merit, no man can deny who knowes the rudiments of Greek: for in the Greek it is, foreign, which in Latine ſignifies as much as pro meritis operum.

Prot.

Indeed you fit it: for our Sauiour Chriſt, warning his diſciples how they ſhould carry themſelues towardes the Scribes and Phariſies: Doe not (ppMatth. 23.Matt 23 ſaith hee) foreign (not meaning after the merit of their workes, but ſimply) after their works. Your great M. qqLib. 2. de verbo Dei c. 12. & l. 5. de Iustif▪ c. 2.Cardinal Bellarmine, of whom you had this, was deceiued.

Pa.

And is that proofe, which rrBell. l. 5. de Iuſtif. c. 2.we fetch for merits out of Heb. 13. 16. fetched out of a corrupt tranſlation, Beneficence and communication forget not; for with ſuch ſacrifices God is promerited.

Prot.

Yea verily: for according to the Greeke the Apoſtle ſaith no more, but: That with ſuch hoſts God is wel pleaſed. And that may appeare vntounto you by this, that both ſſLib. 10. de Ciuit. d…i cap. 5.S. Auſtine, and ttIn bunc locum.Beda read ſo; and uua Cor. 5. 9. & Heb. 11. 5. 6.Heb 11:5Heb 11:6your own Tranſlator elſe where tranſlates ſo.

Pa.

Yet xxSee Rhem. Annot. in Heb. 13. 16.Heb 13:16Primaſius S. Auſtines Scholler reads it as it is in our vulgar Latin: With ſuch hosts God is promerited.

Prot.

Yea, but how know you that that Commentarie is Primaſius his owne? for it is the ſelfe ſame which is fathered on Haymo, who liued after the yeere 800. whoſe credit is nothing anſwerable to Primaſius.

Pa.

Well, let both theſe places paſſe. yyBriſlow Motiue 48.Is not a p. 23plaine text for extreme vnction, which is in S. Iames, Infirmatur quis in vobis—If any among you bee dangerouſly ſicke, let him ſend for the Prieſts of the Church, and they to pray ouer him, anealing him with oyle in the name of the Lord.

Prot.

Of whom learned you to tranſlate Infirmatur quis in vobis. If any man bee dangerouſly ſicke, &c. I thought the word Infirmatur, had ſignified any infirmitie, great or ſmall growing vponupon a man. And if ſo, then the text makes as much againſt you as vsus. For firſt, you aneale not all ſuch perſons as are infirm, but only ſuch as you ſuppoſe to be deſperately ſicke, ſick vntounto death. Secondly, you ſend not Preſbiters, Prieſts: but any one bold Prieſt to anoint them, and pray ouer them. Thirdly, you intend principally in anealing them, the forgiueneſſe of ſinnes: whereas by the text is principally intended, the curing of them of their infirmities. Which is ſo plaine that a Cardinall of your owne renounceth this text as not making for you.

Pa.

What Cardinall is that?

Prot.

zzComment in Lic. 2. 14.Caietan, whoſe wordes theſe are: Nec ex verbis, nec ex effectu verba haec loquuntur de ſacramentali vnctione extreme vnctionis: ſed mag is de vnctione quam inſtituit Dominus Ieſus in Euangelio à diſcipulis exercendam in agr…tis. Textus enim non dicit: Infirmatur quis in vobis ad mortem ſed abſolute, infirmatur quis. Et effectam dicit, infirmi alleuiationem: & de remiſsione peccatorum non loquitur niſi conditionaliter: quum extrema vnctio non niſi prope articulum mortis datur. Et directe (vt eius forma ſona… tendi… ad remiſsionem peccatorum: praeter hoc quod Iacobus ad p. 24vnum agrum multes presbyteros tum orantes, tum vngentes mand…t vocari, quod ab extrema vnctionis rit… alienum est.

Pa.

But is not that a plaine text for proofe of ſatisfaction, which is alledged by aaAnſ. to Iewels pology part. 2. cap. 16. fol. 117.Doctor Harding, out of 2 Cor. 7. 1.

Prot.

What are the words?

Pa.

Seeing then wee hauehave theſe promiſes dearely beloued, let vsus clenſe our ſelues from all filthineſſe of the fleſh and ſpirit, making perfect our ſatisfaction in the feare of God.

Prot.

Theſe are plaine words I promiſe you. But I doe not remember that I euer read ſuch words, either in the Greeke, or in any tranſlation. Your Doctor (I beleeue) hath ſhewed a piece of cunning, and chopt in the word ſatisfaction, for ſanctification, and quite altered the Apoſtles meaning.

Pa.

God forbid he ſhould hauehave dealt ſo naughtily: But what ſay you to the text alledged by bbConfeſſ. Petrikoni… c. 48. de ſacrā. p…nit. f. 127Cardinal Hoſius out of Rom. 6. 19. for the ſame doctrine of Satisfaction. Is it not pregnant to his purpoſe?

Prot.

How cites he it?

Pa.

Exhibeamus membra noſtra ſeruire iuſtitiae in ſatisfactionem. Let vsus exhibit our members to ſerue iuſtice vntounto ſatisfaction.

Prot.

In good earneſt this is a plaine text: but it is none of Saint Pauls. It is one of your Cardinalls owne making. As Harding in the former, ſo your Cardinall in this hath chopt in the word ſatisfaction, for ſanctification, and made a propoſition of his owne, different from S. Pauls: I wiſh it were no Argument of their ſanctification to deale ſo falſly with p. 25the Scriptures: they had need to make ſatisfaction (though not to God, becauſe they cannot,) yet to his Church for ſuch bad dealing.

Pa.

But are there not expreſſe words for the ſupremacy of S. Peter, Matt. 16. where we read thus: Thou art a rocke, and vponupon this rocke will I build my Church. M. Walſingham ſaith. That the Author of the anſwere to M. Charks booke giues this for one inſtance, in way of prouing that expreſſe Scripture is for vsus.

Prot.

I know no ſuch text in S. Matthew, as; Thou art a Rock—I finde there, Thou art Peter, and vponupon this rocke I will build my Church: but, Thou art a rocke, and vponupon this rocke I will build my Church, is not in any booke, nor in any Bible that I hauehave ſeene.

Pa.

Are theſe words; ddExod. 12. 16.Exod 12:16Dies prima erit ſancta & ſeptima eadem Religione venerabiles, The firſt day ſhal be holy, and the ſeuenth day with like religion ſhall be venerable: wherby eeLib. de Imag. cap. 12.Cardinall Bellarmine would proue, That eueryevery holy thing is to bee religiouſly worſhipped: in your Bible mee thinkes they are plaine to proue his purpoſe.

Prot.

Yea, but thoſe are not in my Bible: nor in yours, I thinke, your falſe Cardinall hath moſt irreligiouſly chopt in a word religiouſly in the Text: make ſearch, and truſt me worſe another time if it be not ſo.

Pa.

I will, I warrant you. In the meane let mee heare what plaine Text▪ you can alledge for proofe of your opinions.

Prot.

Content: Doe not theſe words in Deutronomy 4. 15, 16: Take heed vntounto your ſelues, for yee ſaw p. 26no Image in the day that the Lord ſpake vntounto you in Hereb—that yee corrupt not your ſelues, and make you a grauen Image, &c. plainely proue, That the Scriptures forbid the repreſenting of God by any Image? And yet doe not yee repreſent God the Father by the Image of an old man? and the aaBell lib. 2. de Imag. c. 8.moſt of you maintaine, That hee may lawfully be repreſented in ſuch an Image?

Pa.

I confeſſe with bbLib. 2. de Ad… rat. c. 3. d…ſpu…, 4. nu. 74.Vaſquez, That in the words you cite, planè indicat Scriptura, &c. The Scripture ſpeakes plainely, that God did forbid the Iewes to repreſent him by any Image. But you muſt know, that ccIoh. Raguſius Oras. habita in Conc. Baſil, De Communione ſub viraque ſpecie. apud Binnium, To. 4. Conc. p. 297Licet in lege veteri prohibitae fuiſſent lege d…u… na imagines viſibiles, nedum ipſius Dei, ſed qu rumcunque ſanctorum hominum, nec de poſt in Scripturis ſiue veteris ſiue Noui Testamenti conceſſa licentia eius faciendi aut fabricandi reperiatur; nihilominus Eccleſia Catholica edocta à ſpiritu ſancto, nedum permiſit, imo ſtatuit & ordinauit, vt venerabiles Imagines Chriſti, glori…ſiſsimae ſuae matris, & caeterorum ſanctorum fierent, &c. Though in old time the viſible Images of God, yea, and of his Saints, were forbidden by the Law of God: and no libertie granted ſince, either in the Old or New Teſtament to make any ſuch: yet the Church, which is taught of God, hath not onelyonly permitted, but decreed and ordained, That the Images of Chriſt, and his bleſſed Mother the Virgin Mary, and the reſt of the Saints may bee made for ſundry good purpoſes.

Prot.

What? dare you ſay, The Church hath decreed contrary to that which God commanded in holy Scripture? If ſo, you muſt needs grant, That the p. 27Scripture in this is for vsus, and againſt you. The pretended Church, not the Scripture, is for you onelyonly. Wherefore to goe on.

The Scriptures forbid expreſly, The adoring or ſeruing of any ſimilitude or Image, Exod. 20. 4. yet you ddBell. lib. 2. de Imag. c. 12.teach, That Similitudes (Images of Chriſt and his Saints) may be adored and ſerued.

Pa.

I confeſſe with eeLib. ſupra cit. c. 2. …iſp. 4. … 70Vaſquez here alſo, That the Law giuen to the Iewes forbad, Non ſolum cultum Idol…latri…, ſed quamuis adorationem & vſum imaginum: Not onelyonly that adoration and ſeruice which was due to God; but all manner of adoration and ſeruing Images. But the caſe is now altered.

Prot.

Yet in the maine it appeares, That in this the Scripture is for vsus alſo. And is not Exod. 21. 14. ſo too, wherin we find an expreſſe commandement, binding vsus to take the wilful Murtherer from Gods Altar, that he may die: ſeeing you hauehave ſanctuaries out of which no malefactor, no murtherer, may bee taken that iudgement may paſſe on him?

Pa.

I confeſſe with ffDe Inuent. Rerum. l. 3. c. 12.Polidore Virgil, Sunt in orbe noſtro Chriſtiano paſsim Aſyla, qua non in inſidias timentibus, ſed quibuſuis ſontibus etiam Maie ſtatis reis patent. There are many ſanctuaries amongſt vsus, which are receptacles not onelyonly for ſuch as are afraid of miſchiefe towardes themſelues, but to all malefactors, euen to Traytors. And I for my part confeſſe further with him, ggIbid.Quod templa noſtra vbique gen…ium iſtiuſmedi ſceleratis hominibus inſtar Aſylorum ſunt, & id contra quam Moſes conſtituer at, Exodus 21. That our Churches in all places ſerue for ſanctuaries to all manner of wicked perſons, though p. 28God by Moſes did forbid the ſame, Exod. 21. To tel you truely, I thinke it is plaine, that Nihil immunitatis ſac…r prestaret locus, The holineſſe of the place ſhould not priuiledge wilfull murtherers: though it be to true which hhAnnotat ad mores in Exo. 21.Exod 21Hieronimus ab Olea ſtro writes, nūc ſacra loca homicidarum & id genus peccatorum, ſpeluncae factae ſunt: Holy places at this day are made refuges for murtherers, and ſuch like wicked perſons.

Prot.

Well then, the Scripture in this is ours▪ and ſo I doubt not, you will confeſſe, that Scripture is, wherein the Stewes and Brothel houſes are expreſly condemned, viz. Deut. 23. 17. for they are tolerated iiBrer…ley c. 16. ſect. 3. of S. Auſtines Religion. Harding in his Confutation of Iewels Apologyand defended by you.

Pa.

I know they are tolerated in ſome Catholike Countries, and defended by ſome Catholikes. But I am of kkIn Manaali c. 17 n. 195. quintoNauarrus minde, Magis expediret non permittere: It were better they were not tolerated. I thinke llDe Contin…ntia l. 3. c. 4. p. 236.Eſpenceus had iuſt cauſe to ſay, Huius permiſsionis nos non ſemel pudurt, Chriſtianam ſcilicet Remp. eo carere non poſſe, quod tandiu, hoc eſt, annis plus 1500. non admiſit M…ſaica. I hauehave beene often aſhamed to thinke of the toleration for Stewes: That the Chriſtian Common-wealth ſhould not be able to ſtand without admiſſion of that which the Common-wealth of Iſrael by the ſpace of 1500. yeeres and vpward, would neuer admit of. What other inſtance hauehave you?

Prot.

The Scriptures forbid expreſly, The marrying of a mans Aunt; and of a Brothers wife; Leuit. 18. v. 14. & 16. Yet you approue the Nephewes marrying his Aunt: and of any mans marrying his Brothers wife, if the parties hauehave your Popes diſpenſation. p. 29Doe you thinke that your Popes diſpenſations will ſtand good againſt the Scriptures?

Pa.

Yea; in things forbid… … poſitiue, proprio Iudaeorum: By ſome poſiti…e Law peculiar to the Iewes: though not in things forbidden, iure naturae, by the law of Nature. Now theſe kinds of marriages were forbidden, not by the law of Nature, but by a poſitiue law peculiar to the Iewes, as you may ſee in mmLib. 1. de Matrimon c 27.Card…nall Bellarmine.

Prot.

Theſe marriages were forbidden by the law of Nature, and not by a poſitiue law peculiar to the Iewes: for the Heathen, who liued in Canaan before the Iewes, and were not puniſhable for breaking of poſitiue lawes peculiar to the Iewes, but for breaking of the lawes of nature; by theſe, and ſuch like marriages defiled the Land▪ and for ſuch marriages the Land did ſpue them out, as you may ſee, Leuit. 18. 27, 28. and of which you may read more in your learned Frier Hieronimus ab Oleaſtro Expoſit ad literam in Leuit. 18. Wherefore to proceed.

In the Scriptures it is expreſly written, That a man cannot lay his hand vponupon the Lords anointed and be guiltleſſe, 1. Sam. 26. 9. Yet nnIoh. Mariana l. 1. de Regu. c. 6.you teach contrary.

In oo1 King. 2. 271 Kgs 2:27Scriptures we read expreſly, That a Prince depoſed euen the high Prieſt: but no where that a Prieſt depoſed a lawfull Prince. Yet by your ppBell. l. 5. de Ro. Pont. c. 27.I… ſuiticall Religion, A Pope may depoſe a lawfull Prince: but a Prince may not depoſe a Prieſt.

The Scriptures require expreſly, That they who vow, ſhould vow vntounto the Lord, Pſal. 76. 11. and teſtifie as expreſly. That all the vowes recorded in p. 30them were made vntounto the Lord: inſomuch that your qqLib. 3. di▪ culiu ſanctis. c. 5.Cardinall Bellarmine was forced to confeſſe, Cum ſcriberentur Scripture Sancta, nondum coeperat vſus vouendi ſanctis, When the Scriptures were written, it was not the vſe to vow to Saints. Yet you doe ordinarily vow to Saints, and take vponupon you the Iuſtifying of vowes to Saints.

The Scriptures require expreſly, That when men pray, they ſhould pray vntounto the Lord, Pſalme 50. 51. Matt. 6. 9. and teſtifie as expreſly, That all the prayers of holy men recorded in them were made vntounto the Lord: inſomuch that ſome of your greateſt rrBar…e… in 2. 3. The. quaſt▪ …. Art. 10. 2. Con…luſ… ▪ C…l. 269.Clerks confeſſe, Orationes eſſe ad ſanct…s faciendas, neque expreſsè, neque impreſsè, & inuolutè ſacra liter… docent. The holy Scriptures neither teach expreſly, nor impliedly, that prayers may bee made to Saints. Yet ſſBell. l. 1. de ſanct. be…it. …. 19.you do ordinarily pray to Saints, and iuſtifie your practiſe of praying to Saints.

The Scriptures require expreſly, That men ſhould beleeue in God, 2 Chro. 20. 20. and as expreſly commend them who beleeue in God, 1 Pet. 1. 8. yet ttBell. lib. citat. c. …0. Rh…m. Annot. in Ro. 10. 14.Rom 10:14you of later yeeres hauehave begun to teach, That wee may beleeue in men.

Pa.

Why ſay you, That of later yeeres, we hauehave begun to teach, That men may beleeue in men: Did not our Church teach alwaies ſo?

Prot.

No: fiue or ſixe hundred yeeres agoe ſuch doctrine went not for currant in your Church; for when uuGualterus Mape lib. de Nugis Cu…ali…m diſt. 1. c. 3. M. S. in Bibl. …dl…iana O….the Waldenſians in a Councell holden at Rome, vnderunder Alexander the third, were asked by one Gualter Mape, whether they beleeued in the Mother of Chriſt: they anſwered, that they did ſo, Ab omnibus p. 31ſunt multiplici clamore deriſi. They were laught to ſcorne by the Pope and all the Councell. Which ſhewes that the doctrine of beleeuing in Saints, was then a ridiculous doctrine euen in your Church.

The Scripture requires expreſly, That men ſhould truſt in God, Pſal. 115. 9, 10, 11. and as expreſly curſeth them who truſt in man, Ierem. 17. 5. yet you like well, that men ſhould truſt in men: elſe would you burne the Virgin Maries Pſalter made by Bonauenture, xxPſal. 10. 1. & 30. 1. & 70. 1. & 124▪ 1.Ps 10:1Ps 30:1Ps 70:1Ps 124:1in which there is ſo often mention of truſting in our Ladie, as hereafter I ſhall ſhew you.

The Scriptures teach expreſly, That ſacrifices are due to God onelyonly, Exod. 22. 20. and teſtifie as expreſly, That holy men did ſacrifice to God onelyonly. Yet yyBell. l. 2. de Imag. c. 17.you do ſacrifice to Images; for you burne Incenſe to them.

Pa.

I confeſſe we burne Incenſe to Images: but I deny, that that is to ſacrifice to them.

Prot.

They who burnt Incenſe to any thing, but God, are zzIer. 44. 23.Jer 44:23reproued in the Old Teſtament, euen they aa2. Ki…g… 18.who burnt Incenſe to the Brazen Serpent, though the Serpent was a figure of Chriſt: And it belonged to the Prieſt only to burn Incenſe. Which argues, That to burne Incenſe, was to ſacrifice in old time; and that you in burning Incenſe to Images, doe ſacrifice vntounto them.

Pa.

bbBell. lo…o pr… ime citat….To burne Incenſe was a ſacrifice in old time, but ſo it is not now; for wee ſee ſuch as are no Prieſts burne it in our Churches.

Prot.

So cc2 Ch…. … 1….ſome who were no Prieſts tooke vponupon them to burne Incenſe in the old Law. And therefore, if becauſe it is burned now by them who are p. 32no Prieſts, it followes: Ergo, it is no ſacrifice now. Surely by the ſame reaſon we muſt deny, that it was a ſacrifice in old time. But ſee I pray you, at leaſure, how fully this foolery is diſcouered by ddDe lib. Apoc. praelect. 243.D. Rainolds, and let vsus proceed.

In the Scripture Prieſts are expreſly forbidden to ſhaue their heads, Ezech. 44. 20. yet ffRhem. Annot. in 2 Theſſ, 3. 10.the Religious ſort among you muſt hauehave their heads ſhauen.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, Thou ſhalt worſhip the Lord thy God, and him onelyonly ſhalt thou ſerue, Matt. 4. 10. Yet ggRhem, Annot, in Heb. 11. 21.Heb 11:21you teach, That a man may worſhip Hee Saints, and Shee Saints: yea Relikes, beſides the Lord his God.

In the Scriptures it is expreſly written, hhMatt. 6. 7.Matt 6:7When yee pray vſe no vaine repititions. Yet iiPolid, Virgil de Inuent. rerum l. 5. …. 9.you hauehave appointed a forme of praier vponupon the Beads: in which the Aue Mary is to be ſaid one hundred and fiftie times, and the Pater Noſter fifteene, and the Creed thrice. Beſides, ſince that you hauehave ſet vsus out a Ieſus Pſalter, in which there is a forme of praier, wherein fifteen ſuch petitions as this, Ieſu, Ieſu, Ieſu, giuegive mee here my purgatory, are to bee repeated ten times, which makes in all one hundred and fiftie petitions, in which the name of Ieſus is repeated foure hundred and fiftie times: which argue yee allow of vaine repetitions.

In the Scriptures it is expreſly written, kkMatt. 15. 9.Matt 15:9That in vaine they worſhip God, who teach for doctrines mens commandements. Yet llVaux in Catech. …. 3. Bell. in Catech. c. 7. Tabula Xriſtiana Relig. in Exam. Ordinand.you, ouer and beſides the Commandements of God, hauehave written others; which ſome of you call the commandements of the p. 33Church: ſome commandements of the Canon law; which are at feweſt, fiue; if not ſixe: ſome ſay, Ten, euen iuſt as many as thoſe of Gods; which you vrge more ſtrictly then the Commandements of God: for, Grauius plectitur contra vnum Papae decretum, quā delinquens contra diuinum praeceptum & Euan geltum: Hee that offends againſt the Popes Law, is more grieuouſly puniſhed, then he who offends againſt Gods Law and the Goſpel, ſaith mmIn 3. parte operum. Tit. de asrections Cordis Conſid. 30.Gerſon.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, That whoſoeuer ſhall put away his wife, except it bee for whoredome, and marries another, commits adultery, Matt. 19. 9. Yet nnGuicciard in Hiſt lib. 4.your Alexander the ſixt, conſented that Lewis the twelfth of France, ſhould put away his wife, becauſe ſhee was barren and deformed; & marry Anne, the wife to Lewis the eleuenth, his predeceſſour. And your ooC. Laudabilem de conuerſione ſidelium agnoſcente Bell. l. 4. de R…. Pont c. 14.Pope Coeleſtine the third, ſet forth a Decree, That when, of married perſons, the one falleth into hereſie, the marriage is diſſolued, and the Catholike partie is free to marrie againe.

In the Scriptures it is expreſly written, ppMark. 16. 9.Mark 16:9That our Sauiour after his Reſurrection appeared firſt to Mary Magdalen: yet many of you ſay, Wee muſt beleeue he firſt appeared to his Mother Mary.

Pa.

True: for qqTo. 3 … Ma… part. 10. ſe…. 2. de ga…dijs Mariae part. 5. f…l. 347.Bernardinus de Buſtis, hauing noted, That our Sauiour after his Reſurrection appeared firſt vntounto his Mother, addes: Ft hanc opinionem tenet ſancta Mater Eccleſia. And this is the opinion of our holy Mother the Church. And rrAnnal. To. 1. ad An. 34 n. 183Baronius falling to ſpeake of the ſame point, Vetus traditio per manus maiorum, ac per ſubſequentia ſecula ad p. 34posteros dilapſa teſtatur Chriſtum dominum noſtrum apparuiſſe pr…mum omnium ſanctiſsimae genetrici Mariae: quod nemo pius puto, neg ar it. It is, ſaith hee, an ancient tradition of our Anceſtors, which is come to vsus from hand to hand, that our Sauiour Chriſt appeared firſt to his moſt holy Mother Mary, and I thinke no godly man will deny it.

Prot.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, That ſſMark. 3. 29.Mark 3:29hee who blaſphemeth againſt the holy Ghoſt ſhall neuer bee forgiuen: Yet ttBell. l. 2 de Paenitentia, c. 16you teach, That blaſphemy againſt the holy Ghoſt may bee forgiuen.

In the Scripture we read expreſly, That S. Iohn was the diſciple whom Ieſus loued, Ioh. 13. 23. compared with Chap. 21. 20. & 24. And yet you will needs it was Saint Peter whom Ieſus loued moſt intirely.

In the Scripture wee read expreſly, That when Cornelius met S. Peter, and fell at his feete to adore him: S. Peter reproued him for it. Act. 10. 25, 26. Yet your Pſ…udo-Peters are ſo farre from refuſing adoration when it is offered, that uuPius 2. Mallienſibus aliquandi…s viſendū ſ… adorandum que praebuit. Pi…olom, Card. … Papy…nſis in Epiſt. Card. Seninſi. & Commentar. l. 1.ſome of them hauehave preſented themſelues to the people that they might be adored.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, That our Sauiour ſpeaking of the Sacramentall Cup, ſaid: Drinke yee all of this, Matth. 26. 27. Yet, xxSuarez in 3. part. Tho q 80. Act. 12. diſput. 71. ſect. 2. … 905Acts 12you ſay; All need not drinke thereof. Yea, yee ſay, All ſhall not drinke thereof: Patris & Primitiua Eccleſia populum a Commun…one Calicis non prohibebant, nos arcemus, &c. The Fathers in the Primitiue Church did not forbid the people to drinke of the Cup, but we p. 35driue them from it, ſaith yyEpiſt. 130.Aeneas Syluius.

That which was the Sacramentall Cup, after the words of Conſecration in the Scripture, is expreſly called, The fruit of the Vine, Matth. 26. 29. Yet yee ſay, That after words of Conſecration vttered, it is not the fruit of the Vine, Wine; which is in the Sacramentall Cup, but blood.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, That the other element deliuered by our Sauiour Chriſt to his Apoſtles, at the celebration of the Communion was Bread: for ſo it is zz… Cor. 11, 26, 27, 28.called after the words of Conſecration vttered, as well as before: Yet ye ſay, That after the words of Conſecration vttered, it is not Bread, which is deliuered to the Communicants.

In the Scriptures wee read expreſly, That S. Paul in nothing was inferiour to the chiefe Apoſtles, 1 Cor. 12. 11. Yet aaBaron. Annal. To. 1. ad An. 34. nu. 207.ye puſh at it when we tell you, S. Paul was equall to Peter in power.

In the Scriptures we read expreſly, That a man is iuſtified by faith, without the works of the Law, Rom. 3. 28. Yet bbRhem Annot. … 21.ye ſay, Workes iuſtifie.

In the Scripture we read expreſly, That as …y one man, ſinne entred into the world, and death by ſinne▪ ſo death went ouer all men, in whom all men hauehave ſinned, Rom. 5. 12. Yet ccEhem. …yee ſay, The Virgin Mary neuer ſinned.

In the Scriptures, Saint Paul ſpeaking of Concupiſcence, in expreſſe termes calls it ſinne, Rom. 6. 12. as you your ſelues confeſſe: Yet yee deny Concupiſcence is ſin: and dd…tell vsus ſoberly, that Apoſtolus Concupiſcentiam peccatum vota…, at non lice… nobis it a loq…: p. 36Though the Apoſtle calls it ſinne, yet we may not call it ſo.

In the Scriptures we read expreſly, That whatſoeuer is not of faith is ſin, Rom. 14. 23. Yet eeRhem. Annot. in Ro. 14. 23.Rom 14:23yee teach, That many actions done by Infidels are not finne.

In the Scriptures it is expreſly written, That if any Brother hauehave a wife that beleeueth not, if ſhe be content to dwell with him, hee ſhould not forſake her: and if any woman hauehave an vnbeleeuing huſband, who is content to dwell with her, ſhee ſhould not forſake him. 1 Cor 7. 12, 13. Yet yee teach, That a beleeuing brother may put away his vnbeleeuing wife though ſhe be content to dwell with him: and a beleeuing woman, may put away her vnbeleeuing husband, though he be content to dwell with her: Yea, ye teach, That the vnbeleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing. They muſt part companie.

Pa.

Indeed I read in ffNot in Conc. Yoles. 17. c. 8. To. 3. Conc. part. prior▪ p. 171.Binnius, that Licet in principie naſcentis Eccleſi… erat licitum poſt ſuſceptam ſidem virum fidelem ab vxore infideli non diſcedere vel contra, ſed eandem in domo & commerci… manere vt conſtat ex Paulo: 1 Cor. 7. propter ſpem conuerſionis alterius: tamen ab hinc 800. annis Eccleſia contrarium pr…cepit, ſi…que lege, conſuetudine, & vſu introductum eſt vt fidelis non maneat cum in…i…eli, Though in the Prime age of the Church it was lawfull for the beleeuer to continue in the ſame houſe and fellowſhip with the vnbeleeuer, & not to make a ſeparation, in hope the beleeuing partie might conuert the vnbeleeuing: yet the Church about eight hundred yeares agoe gaue commandement to the contrary. So that now p. 37partly by vertue of a law, partly by cuſtome, it is generally receiued, That the beleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing. And to confeſſe the whole truth, ggInter Epiſtolas Indicas Scripta… Ormuti… A. 1551I read that Father Gaſpar in India hauing baptized an honourable Indian Ladie, when her husband made great meanes to hauehave her againe, being deſired to deliuer his opinion in a Councell held about that matter, anſwered roundly: That they ought not to giuegive holy things to dogs, nor the perſons of ſuch as praiſe God vntounto beaſts. Wherevpon it was concluded, Her husband ſhould not hauehave her againe. Shee ſhould bee married to another.

Pro.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, Defraud not one another, except it bee with conſent for a time, that you may giuegive your ſelues to Faſting and Praier, 1 Cor. 7. 5. Yet ye teach, A married man may goe in pilgrimage, euen to Ieruſalem, without his wiues conſent.

Pa.

I grant hhCap. ex multa. ſect. in …anto. Extra. de rote & vo…i Redemp.Innocentius the third decreed ſo vponupon a ſpeciall occaſion: but I know not whether that Decree ſtand in force now. But proceed.

Pro.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, That he who cannot abſtaine ſhould marrie, becauſe it is better to marrie then to burne, 1 Cor. 7. 9. Yet iiRhem. Annot. in 1 Cor. 7. 9.1 Cor 7:9yee teach, That ſome ſuch, as your Prieſts and Monkes may not marrie though they burne.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, That it is a ſhame for a woman to bee ſhauen, 1 Cor. 11. 6. Yet your kkRhem Annot. in 2 Theſſ. 3 10.2 Thess 3:10Nunnes are ſhorne.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, That Chriſtians ſhould praiſe God in their aſſenblies, by ſinging, p. 38Coloſſ. 3. 16. Yet ye will not allow them to ſing in their aſſemblies. And this is confeſſed by your llNot. in Cont. Laodic. Can. 15. To. 1. Cont p. 293Binnius: for, Vt …ideles in ſuis conuentibus Pſalmis & hymnis, alternatim corde ſimul & ore decan▪ at is Deum landent a Paulo ad Coloſs. cap. 3. & ad Eph. cap. 5. praeceptum eſſe fat…mur. Sed dum olim vnà cum clericis etiam popolus promiſcuè cantare…, imper itiâ Canentium aliquando accidebat, vt ij, quorum vox inculta erat, aut abſona Harmonicum illum Eccleſiaſtic… dignitati congruentem concentum planè corrumperent. Ad bo… ergo incommodum a cantu religioſo tollendum Eccleſiaſt. inſtitut. hiſce optimè prouiſum eſt, ne praeter cert…s ad hoc opus aſcr…ptes al ij in Eccleſia pſallerent. Wee confeſſe (ſaith he) Saint Paul commanded Chriſtians to ſing in their aſſemblies: but becauſe it fell out, that ſome who had no skill in ſinging, ſung with other who had skill, they marred the Muſicke, it was very well prouided by Eccleſiaſticall Inſtitutions, That onelyonly certaine Singing men and Quoriſters ſhould ſing in Church aſſemblies.

In the Scripture wee read expreſly, That praiers ſhould be conceiued in knowne languages, 1. Cor. 14. Yet ye like not of that. mmBenedictus Montanus in 1 Cor. 14.1 Cor 14A Pariſian Doctor tells vsus, Et ſi Apostolus linguâ intellect â preces velit celebrari, tamen ſanctam Eccleſiam iuſtiſsimis de cauſis contra ſtatuiſſe, That though the Apoſtle thought good praier ſhould bee in knowne languages; yet your Church vponupon good reaſon hath decreed the contrarie.

In the Scripture wee read expreſly, That the vnlearned ſhould ſay, Amen, at the end of praiers, 1 Cor. 14. 16. which they did euen, Ab initio naſcentis p. 39Eccleſiae, from the Apoſtles time, as nnDe Ritibus Ec…l. Cathol. l. 2. c. 17. …u. 2.Dorantes conconfeſſeth: Yet by your Religion, The Clerke of the Pariſh only is to ſay Amen, at the end of praiers.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, That he is curſed who abideth not in all things which are written in the Law to doe them, Gal. 3. 10. Yet ooRhem. Annot. in Ro. 1. 32.Rom 1:32yee teaching, That ſome ſinnes are pardonable of their owne nature, muſt needs bee thought to teach by neceſſarie conſequence, That euerie ſuch man is not curſed.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, EueryEvery man ſhall beare his owne burthen, Galat. 6. 5. Yet yee teach, That one man may beare anothers burthen: for ppAzorius Inſtit. Moral part 1. l. 7. c. 21. 7. quaritur.if one be enioined to faſt, in part of Penance: another may faſt for him.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, That the Mediator betweene God and man is one, and he is Chriſt Ieſus, 1 Tim. 2. 5. Yet yee generally teach, That there are many mediators betweene God and man, moe then Chriſt Ieſus.

Pa.

That is our generall doctrine, I grant: Yet there are among vsus who teach, qqIoh. Heſſ…ls pro Inuccas. ſanct. c. 5.Sanctos Angelos & homines non dicendos eſſe mediatores Dei & hominum, ſed potius mediatores ad mediatorem: The holy Men and Angells are not to bee reputed mediators betweene God and man, but rather mediators betweene the Mediator: Yea ſome of vsus ſimply denie that Saints be Mediators: Vniuer ſalis Eccleſia San… tos colit, ſed non vt mediatores, The Catholike Church worſhippeth Saints, but not as Mediators, …aith rr… Juth… ▪ d…g…ata Philip-pica 16. p. 206. & 216.Virueſius.

Prot.

That doctrine is as falſe as the other, but it ſufficeth mee that your ordinarie doctrine is proued p. 40to be contrarie to expreſſe Scripture. I will paſſe to another inſtance.

By expreſſe Scripture married men may be made Biſhops, 1 Tim. 3. 2. Yet ſſDominicus Soto de Iuſtitia & …re l, … q. 6. p. 731.yee teach, Married men may not be made Biſhops.

By expreſſe Scripture, they bee made Biſhops who hauehave children, 1 Tim. 3 4. Yet ttIoh. Franc. Ieo in Theſauro Fori Eccl. part. 1. c 3. de Elect. Epiſt. nu. 38. 39.your Clemens the eighth, would admit none to be Biſhops who had children; though ſome of his predeceſſors did otherwiſe, yet his practiſe was according to your learning: For in uuDiſt. 61. Catinenſis.your Canon Law, Pope Pelagius giuing one direction what manner of man hee ſhould chuſe for a Biſhop, bids him looke vntounto it, Nec vxorem habeat, nec filios: Hee neither hauehave wife nor children. Whereof ſome of you giuegive this reaſon, xxIoh. Franc. Leo citat. & gloſſa apud Grat. d. 82 prepoſuiſti verbo …Quia filius eſt Argumentum ambulans ſuper terram de incontinentia patris: Becauſe children are aprant ambling Arguments of the Incontinencie of their fathers.

By expreſſe Scripture they are condemned who forbid marriage, 1 Tim. 4. 3. Yet yee doe ſo: for yee will not ſuffer Prieſts to marry.

Pa.

yyRhem. Annot. 1 Tim. 4. 3.1 Tim 4:3They who forbid marriage as vnlawfull, ſuch as the Manichees, are condemned: but not we, who only forbid ſome ſorts of men to marry.

Prot.

The zzAuſtin. Epiſt. 74.Manicheis did not forbid all men to marry; but onelyonly their Elect, ſuch as your Prieſts and Monkes. And therefore if the Manicheis bee hereby condemned; why not yee alſo?

In the Scriptures wee read expreſly, That if any who beleeueth not, call a Chriſtian to a feaſt, the Chriſtian ſhould cate of whatſoeuer is ſet before p. 41him, asking no queſtion for conſcience ſake; 1 Corinth. 10. 27. Yet if one of you Papiſts bee bidden to a feaſt by a Proteſtant (of whom you make no more eſteeme, then of one who beleeueth not) you will not eate of whatſoeuer is ſet before you.

1 Tim. 4. 3.1 Tim 4:3By expreſſe Scripture they are condemned, who command men to abſtaine from meats: Yet ſo doe you Papiſts. bbEraſm. Schol. in Epiſt. ad Epiſcop. Baſil. de del…ctu ciborum. nu. 29.Qui guſtauit ouum, trahitur in carcerem: cogitur que de haereſi cauſam dicere: qui totam diem Dominicam vacat temulentiae, ſcortis, & aleae, audit bellus home: He who eates an egge on a faſting day is committed to priſon, and ſuſpected for an Hereticke: Hee who ſits at the Ale-houſe all the Lords day, and giues himſelfe to whoring, and dicing, is counted a good man and a true.

In the ccEſay 53. 6.Isa 53:6Scripture wee read expreſly, That the Lord laid vponupon him (viz Chriſt) the iniquitie of vsus all: and that it was dd1 Pet. 3. 10.1 Pet 3:10Chriſt, who ſuffered for our ſinnes: and, ee1 Pet. 2, 24, 25.1 Pet 2:241 Pet 2:25bare them in his body on the tree: ſo that, by his ſtripes we are healed. Yet you ffConc. Trid. Seſſ. 14. c. 8.teach, That ſatisfaciendo patimur pro peccatis, By ſatisfactory works we muſt ſuffer for our ſinnes: We, as well as Hee; Not hee only.

In the Scripture we read expreſly, hhHeb. 7. 27.Heb 7:27That our Sauiour Chriſt did but offer himſelfe once: And yet you iiCon. Trid. Seſſ. 22. e. 1.ſay, That in preciſe manner hee offered himſelfe twice. Once at his laſt Supper; and againe, vponupon the Croſſe.

Pa.

Some of vsus ſay ſo indeed: kkVeloſillus Aduertent. in 2 To. Chryſoſt. ad 16. quaſitum. Suarez in Tho. To. 3. d 74. ſect. 2. The Hiſtory of the Councel of Trent in Engliſh, p. 545. & 555. & 574.But there was a hot contention about it in the Councell at Trent: a good ſort maintaining reſolutely, That he did not offer himſelfe at the laſt Supper: Of which number p. 42that famous Muſſus was one, llSixt. Senenſ. l. 4. verbo. Cornel. Muſſus.who was a Preacher at twelue yeeres old, with whom all Italy was in admiration. But ſay on.

In the Scripture wee read expreſly, mmHeb. 9. 25.Heb 9:25That our Sauiour was not to offer himſelfe often: Yet nnConc. Trid. Seſs. 22. c. 2.you teach, That he offered himſelfe daily.

In the Scripture wee read expreſly, ooHeb. 9. 25.Heb 9:25That if Chriſt be often offered, hee muſt often ſuffer. But you deny, that hee ſuffers often, though you grant he is often offered.

In the Scripture we read expreſly, ppHeb. 9. 22.Heb 9:22That without ſhedding of blood there is no remiſſion of ſins. Yet qqBell. l. 2. de Miſſa c. 2.you teach▪ That your Maſſe is a propitiatorie ſacrifice for ſin; though you acknowledge it an vnbloody ſacrifice.

In the Scripture it is expreſly written, rrHeb. 13. 4.Heb 13:4That Marriage is honourable among all: And yet ſſRhem. Annot. in 1 Cor. 7. 9.1 Cor 7:9you ſay, Marriage of Prieſts is the worſt ſort of incontinency.

In the Scripture we read expreſly, ttIames 3. 2.Jas 3:2That in many things wee ſinne all: Yet uuBell. l 4. de … c. 13.you ſay, He who is iuſtified, Legem omnino implet, Keepes the Law wholly.

In the Scripture we read expreſly, xxApoc. 14. 13.Rev 14:13That they are bleſſed who die in the Lord hereafter, for they reſt from their labours: Yet yyRhem. Annot. ibid.you teach, That many of thoſe that die in the Lord goe to Purgatory: where their labour is greater then they euer vnderwent in this world.

To be briefe: In the Scripture we read expreſly, That Chriſt is zzEph. 5. 23.Eph 5:23the Head, and aa2 Cor. 1…. 2.2 Cor 1:2Spouſe of the Church. Yet bbBell. l. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 31.you tell vsus, The Pope is Head, and p. 43Spouſe of the Church. In the Scripture wee read expreſly, cc1 Ioh. 1. ….1 John 1That it is the blood of Chriſt which clenſeth vsus from all ſin: and yet you tell vsus, That Holy-water, Holy-bread, Biſhops▪ bleſſing, and ſuch like will clenſe vsus from many ſinnes. In the e Matt. 25. 34, 41.Matt 25:34Matt 25:41Scriptures we read expreſly of two places appointed for Soules after this life, Heauen, and Hell. And ffBel. l. 2. de purgat. c. 6.yet you tell vsus, there are foure places: Heauen, Hell, Purgatory, and Limbus puerorum; yea, and perhaps ggBell. l. 2. de purg. c. 7.a fift differing from all theſe. By all which doe not you ſee how plaine, and how plentifull the Scriptures are which make for vsus, and againſt you in matters controuerſed? Doe not you ſee hhHil, in his Quarterne of Reaſons, reaſon 8. p. 41.his falſhood, who ſaid; The Catholikes follow the Bible, but the Proteſtants force the Bible to follow them?

Pa.

I ſee you huddle vp one Scripture in the neck of another readily: ii… Suruey firſt Booke c. 2.But it hath beene the propertie of all Heretickes to make no bones of Scripture, but prodigally to ſpend them, and to lauiſh them out to proue thereby their hereſies, were they neuer ſo fantaſticall. kkLib. adu. pr… fama… omnium haereſ. nouati… nes.Vincentius Lyrinenſis witneſſeth, That Heretickes flie through eueryevery volume of the heauenly Law; and that they dye and colour almoſt euerie Page in their Bookes with ſentences of the Old and New Teſtament.

Pro.

And do not you ſo too, I pray? Are there not many Pages in many Books of yours, which are died & coloured with ſentences of the Old and New Teſtament? Is not your Caniſius Catechiſme as full of Texts of the Old and New Teſtament, as any Heretickes? Is not your Summarie of Controuerſies, made by W. C. and publiſhed, A. 1623. and your p. 44llBrerely Auſtins Religion c. 3. ſect. 4. …. 35.Gagge of the New Goſpel, publiſhed …. 1622. dyed with ſentences out of Scripture?

Pa.

Yes: but Heretickes inſiſt vponupon Scriptures only, as S. Auſtine witneſſeth; whereas our Bookes are full of other teſtimonies out of Fathers and Councells.

Prot.

Yea: but it is not true that Hereticks inſiſted vponupon Scripture only; for the moſt notorious Hereticks that euer were, hauehave beene as confident that the Fathers were on their ſide, as you are confident they are on your ſide. The moſt notorious Hereticks hauehave inſiſted much vponupon the Fathers.

m Hiſt. l. 5. c. 27.The Samoſatenians, who denied the Godhead of Chriſt, bragd, Maiores omnes etiam ipſos Apoſtolos ea ſenſiſſe ac docuiſſe quae ipſi nunc dicunt ſeruatamque eſſe predicationis veritatem vſque ad tempora Victoris qui 13. à Petro Romanorum Epiſcopus fuit. All their predeceſſours, euen the Apoſtles themſelues thought as they thought, and that the truth of their doctrine continued till Victors time, who was the thirteenth Biſhop of Rome after S. Peter.

n Act. 1. To. 2. Conc. p. 21. edit. Binniana.Acts 1Dioſcorus Biſhop of Alexandria, who denied the two Natures of Chriſts cried out in the Councell at Chalcedon, Ego teſtimonia habeo ſanctorum patrum Athanaſij, Gregorij, Cyrilli in multis locis; Ego cum patribus eijcior, ego defendo patrum dogmata, non tranſgredior in alique, & horum teſtimonia non ſimpliciter ne… tranſitorie, ſea in libris habeo. I hauehave the teſtimonies of the holy Fathers, Athanaſius, Gregories, Cyrils, and that in many places; I am condemned with the Fathers; it is I who defend the Fathers opinions, I doe not ſwerue one Iod from them, I hauehave their teſtimonies p. 45not by hearſay, and at ſecond hand, but in their owne Bookes.

o Epiſt. ad Rufum. qu… extat. apud Binn…um inter Acta Conc. Epheſ. O… cumen. To. 3. c. 13 p. 780. To. 1. edit. Binniana.The Neſtorians, who held many hereſies, at the Councell of Epheſus, made this proteſtation. Nos in ſanctorum patrum qui apud Nic…nam conuenerant caeterorum que qui poſt illos in Eccleſia claruerunt, Euſt achij Antiocheni, Baſilij Caeſarienſis, Gregorij, …oannis, Athanaſij, Theophili, Damaſi Romani, Ambroſij Mediolanenſis, reliquorum que qui cum memoratis conſentiunt doctrina perſeuer amus pijſque illorum veſtig ijs inſiſtimus: quippe qui Euangel…cam Apoſtolicamque & Propheticam doctrinam plenè aſſecuti exact am Oxthedoxae fidei Rogulam nobis tradiderunt: quam doctrinam & nos inconcuſſam inflexamque retinere ſatagimus, &c. We maintaine the doctrine which the holy Fathers aſſembled at Nice, and others who were men of fame in the Church ſince that time maintained. Such as Euſtac…ius of Antioch, Baſil of Caeſarea, Gregory, Iohn, Athanaſius, Theophilus, Damaſus of Rome, Ambroſe of Millain, and the like. Wee tread in their moſt holy ſteps, who hauing fully attained to the knowledge of the Goſpel, and of the Apoſtles, and of the Prophets, hauehave left vsus an exact rule to follow, which wee deſire alſo to leaue vntounto our poſterities, &c.

p Synod. …at… ranenſ. apud Bin. To. 2. Cont. p. 1091. S…cretario 4.Certaine Heretickes in a Councell held vnderunder Martin 1. cried out, Haec pietatis dog mata tradiderunt nobis qui ab initio praeſentialiter viderunt, vel Miniſtri verbi facti ſunt, eorum que diſcipuli, & ſucceſſores, & ſequentes à Deo inſpiratae Eccleſtae doctores, &c. Theſe religious opinions were deliuered vntounto vsus, by ſuch as were made Miniſters of the Word at the beginning, p. 46and by their diſciples and ſucceſſors, and ſince by the Doctors of the Church, who were illuminated by God, &c. And this is ſo plaine that qqDial. 6. c. 22.Cope confeſſeth it in theſe words: Veteres haeretici cum patres ipſis apertiſsimè aduer ſarentur cos tamen à ſe ſtare magna contention… clamabant: The ancient Hereticks cried out with open mouth, that the Fathers made for them, though indeed the Fathers were flat againſt them. And if Copes acknowledgement will not ſatisfie you, you may find as much acknowledged by Baronius, Annal To. 5. An. 431. Nu. 170.

Pa.

But what ſay you to Saint Anſtine, whom I alledged as witneſſing, That Hereticks inſiſt vponupon Scripture only?

Prot.

I ſay it is not credible that Saint Auſtin euer ſaid ſo, or thought ſo; for he himſelfe witneſſeth, That Hereticks hauehave inſiſted vponupon Viſions and Miracles, and Succeſſions, and Councells, and Fathers, as well as vponupon Scripture. That Heretickes inſiſted vponupon Viſions, Saint Auſtin witneſſeth, De vnitate Eccleſiae Cap. 16. That Hereticks hauehave inſiſted vponupon Miracles, Saint Auſtin witneſſeth, Tract. 13. in Ioh. That they hauehave inſiſted vponupon Succeſſion, S. Auſtin witneſſeth Epiſtola 165. And that Maximini…s the Arian inſiſted vponupon the Councell at Arminium. That the Donatiſts inſiſted vponupon S. Cyprian, and other Fathers concurring in opinion with him. That Pelagius inſiſted vponupon Hilary, and Ambroſe, and Chryſoſtome, and Sixtus Biſhop of Rome, and Ierome, and vponupon ſome paſſages of S. Auſtin we read in S. Auſtin. Now except hee would contradict himſelfe, how can it bee that hee, who witneſſeth theſe things, p. 47ſhould witneſſe alſo, That Hereticks inſiſted vponupon Scripture only?

Pa.

It ſeemes by your ſpeech, That Hereticks vſed all kind of arguments in defence of themſelues, and that they inſiſted vponupon Fathers eſpecially. I could wiſh you durſt refer the hearing of the more waighty differences betweene vsus vntounto the Fathers.

Prot.

What reaſon hauehave you to feare, that I dare not referre the hearing of the more weightie differences betweene vsus vntounto the Fathers: it by Fathers you meane the Ancient Fathers, and not your Father Ieſuits?

Pa.

I feare you dare not make ſuch a reference, becauſe I read in aaAnnal. To. 6. ad …n 448 … 42.Cardinall Baronius that, Haeretici noſtri temporis ſic prouocant ad diuinam ſcripturam, vt niſi tot ſyllabis & elementis id ipſum quod profitetur Eccleſia Catholica in ea expreſſum inueniunt, minimè ſibi retinendum eſſe pertinaciſsimè reluct antur: nullam vel traditionum, vel ſanctorum patrum interpretationum rationem pror ſus habentes. The Hereticks of this age (he meanes ſuch as you) doe ſo appeale to Scripture, that except they find therein euen in ſo many words, whatſoeuer the Catholike Church be…eeueth, they vtterly diſlike it: making no reckoning at all of Traditions, or of the expoſitions of the Fathers.

Prot.

Your Cardinall is a Cardinall lier. We require no ſuch dunſtable plaine proofe out of Scripture for points of Faith, as he lyingly affirmes. Neither doe wee diſpiſe the Fathers: Wee bbRainolds C… fer. with Hart. … c. 2. diuiſ. 2.confeſſe they were men indued of God with excellent gifts, and brought no ſmall light to the vnderſtanding of p. 48Scriptures. And much more we ſay (ſaying nothing but what we thinke) in their commendation.

Pa.

Why, but I hauehave heard (for all your talke) by others, ccDowly in his inſtruction of Chriſtian Relig c. 8. p. 108That you diſpiſe all the Churches Doctors, and ancient Fathers, That ddHil in his Quarterne of Reaſons Nu. 10.you make no more account of the Fathers, longer then you can wreſt them to ſerue your turne, then you doe of Beuis of Hampton, or Adam Bel. Yea, I read it eeSebaſtian …laſeh in proſeſ. Cathol. ratio 10. 7.written of ſuch as you, that, Non alio loco reuera ſanctos Patres habent quàm que loco Alcoranum Mahometi, & Eſopi fabulas: They make no more account of the holy Fathers, then they doe of the Turks Alkaron, or Eſops Fables. And, ffBriſlow Motiue 14.that it is well knowne to ſuch as heare your Sermons, or be in place to heare you talke boldly and familiarly together among your ſelues, you are not afraid plainly to confeſſe, That the Fathers all were Papists. And I am ſure you know the man, whoſe words theſe are: ggCampian, rat. 5. Kellinſons Suruey l. 1. c. 4. Nu. 6The Proteſtants let not to confeſſe with Tobith Mathew, That no man can read the Fathers, and beleeue them, and imbrace the New Religion.

Prot.

I know there are of you Papiſts, hhWalſinghams ſearch into Religion. p. 19. i Briſlow Motiue 14.who confidently auouch, That the old Fathers make againſt vsus in all points: and i that in moſt matters of Controuerſie they are ſo plainly on your ſide, that it cannot with any colour bee denied, or called in queſtion. I know there are of you who kkFieri non againſt Rider, p. 25.write: That in all the Volumes of the Fathers nothing is treated, but what you profeſſe, nothing commended or condemned, but what you commend or condemne; and that we in our conſciences know all Antiquitie to be againſt vsus: Becauſe (as llBiſhop in his 2. part againſt M. Perkins Tit. of Repentance. p. 214.they ſay) in no one point that they can heare of, will any of vsus be tried by the iudgement, and conſent of Antiquitie. I know the p. 49man, & what became of him (he was hangd at mmA. 1581.Tiburne for Treaſon) who firſt broached that ſlander on Tobith Mathew, the moſt reuerend Archbiſhop of Yorke at this day: who being almoſt eightie yeeres old, preacheth more Sermons in a yeere, then you can proue hauehave bin preached by all your Popes ſince Gregory the great his daies. And I know that that nnRat. 5.man vaunted; Ad Patres ſi quando licebit accedere, confectum eſt praelium: tàm ſunt noſtri quàm Gregorius 13. filiorum Eccleſiae Pater amantiſsimus. If Controuerſies of Religion came once to the deciſion of the Fathers, all would goe on your ſide: for the Fathers, were as flat for you, as Gregory the thirteenth, your beloued Pope. Yea, and I know your Lay ooApology or Petition of Lay Catholikes. 1604. c. 4.Catholikes in their Petition to his Maieſtie, ſuggeſted: That for one place of a Father euill vnderſtood, ſometimes falſified, ſometimes mutilated, and ſometimes wholly corrupted, brought by vsus: they could produce a thouſand, not by patches and mammocks, as we do: but whole Pages, whole Chapters, whole Bookes, and the vniforme conſent of all the ancient Fathers, and Catholike Church. Yet I am of ppMedulla patrum in Athanaſion. c. 15. p. 140.Scultetus mind, That D. Whitakers ſpake nothing but the truth, when in his anſwere to Campian hee auouched, Patres in maximis iudic ijs toti ſunt noſtri, in leuioribus varij, in minutiſsimis veſtri. The Fathers in mayne Controſies are wholly ours, in the leſſer, ſome ours, ſome yours, in the leaſt yours, not ours. Yea I am of D. qqConference with Hart. c. 8. di…iſ. 6. in fine.Raynolds mind, who proteſteth that in his opinion, Not one of all the Fathers was a Papiſt; eſpecially, conſidering the very eſſence of a Papiſt conſiſteth in opinion of the Popes Supremacie: and p. 50the Popes Supremacie is not allowed by any of the Fathers.

Pa.

r Why, but you will not deny I am ſure, That ſome of your predeceſſors, as for example Luther, hath ſpoken ſcornfully of the Fathers▪ Are not theſe his words, Nihil curo, &c. I care not if a thouſand Auſtins, a thouſand Cyprians, a thouſand Churches thinke otherwiſe then I doe.

Prot.

Luther perſwading himſelfe that the Word of God made for him in a controuerſie which hee handled, by way of ſuppoſall, that Auſtin and Cyprian, &c. thought otherwiſe▪ profeſſeth, that hauing the Word with him, he cared not who they were, not how many they were, who were againſt him. And do you thinke that therein he ſpake ſcornfully of the Fathers? What doe you thinke then of him, who perſwading himſelfe that ſome of your Popes made for him, proteſteth he would reſt more thereon, then vponupon thouſand Auſtins, thouſand Ieroms, thouſand Gregories, Ego vt ingenuè …atcor plus vnt ſummo pontificicrederem in his qui fidci myſteria tangunt quā mille Auguſtinis, Hieronymis, Gregorijs ſaith your Cornelius Muſſus, in his ſſCap. 14. p. 606. edit. venet. 1588Commentary vponupon the Epiſtle to the Romanes. If it were ſcornefullneſſe in Luther to preferre the Word of God before thouſand Auſtins: doth it not much more argue ſcornfulneſſe in Muſſe, to prefer an vſurping, moſt vicious, and vnlettered Pope, before thouſand Auſtins? ttPious Mirandula in Quaeſt. An Papaſit ſupra Conc.He was a great Clerke in his time, who deliuered this as ſound doctrine; Simplici potius Ruſtice, & infanti, & Anicul…, magis quàm Pontifici maximo, & mille Epiſcopis credendum eſt, ſi iſti contra Euangelium, p. 51illi pro Euangelie faciant. We ought rather beleeue a plaine country fellow, or a child, or an old wife, then the Pope, and a thouſand Biſhops: if the Pope and Biſhops ſpeake againſt the Goſpel; and the others agreeably to the Goſpel. To prefer the Word of God before Biſhops, is not to ſcorne Biſhops.

Pa.

Well, ſhall we then fall to the Fathers, and ſee what they ſay?

Prot.

Nay, ſtay a little. And tell me firſt what hope there is that either you ſhould perſwade me, or I perſwade you, by Fathers: ſeeing the one of vsus cannot perſwade the other to be of his opinion by the Scripture: It is uuLuke 16. 31Luke 16:31written, That they who heare not Moſes, and the Prophets, will not bee perſwaded though one riſe from the dead againe. Which makes me feare, that ſeeing Moſes and the Prophets, alledged by me, cannot perſwade you, nor the Texts which you alledge out of the ſame cannot perſwade me, we ſhall loſe both our labours in examining what the Fathers hauehave ſaid about the differences betweene vsus: For if men who heare not Moſes and the Prophets, will not be perſwaded by the dead miraculouſly raiſed; I cannot thinke they will euer be perſwaded by the Fathers.

Pa.

Say you ſo?

Prot.

Yea truly: and I am the more afraid we ſhall loſe our labours in this kind; becauſe there is as great queſtion betweene vsus, about the Fathers, as about the Scriptures: what the meaning of the Fathers is, as vvhat the meaning of the Scriptures is. On vvhoſe ſide St. Austin, and St. Ambroſe ſtands, p. 52as on whoſe ſide St. Paul, and St. Peter ſtands. The Fathers Writings are ſubiect to miſtakings as vvell as the Scriptures. Arbitror nonnulles in quibuſdamlocis libr…rum meorum opinaturos me ſenſiſſe, quod non ſenſi, aut non ſenſiſſe quod ſenſi: I ſuppoſe (ſaith xxLib. 1. de Trinitate 6. 3. prope ſinem.St. Auſtin) that many by reaſon of ſome paſſages in my Bookes, will conceiue that my meaning is otherwiſe then it was: or that it vvas not ſuch as it was. And it fell out accordingly. For as yyAunal. To. 6. ad An. 450. n. 17Baronius witneſſeth, after St. Auſtins death, there aroſe vp diuers, Qui ex eius ſcriptis male perceptis complures inuexerunt errores, quos S. Aug. nomine & authoritate defendere conabantur. Who miſtaking his meaning, broached many errors in his name. Now I doubt not, but you thinke other Fathers Writings are as ſubiect to miſtakings as St. Auſtins.

Pa.

That I doe: Yet proue this point (I pray) a little more fully.

Prot.

I will; and that by examples of ancienter, and later times. In ancient times one Father miſtooke the meaning of another. At this time, euen one of you conceiues differently of the meaning of the Fathers, from others of you: ſome ſaying, This is the meaning: others ſaying, not ſo; but this is the meaning.

Pa.

What ancient Father miſtooke his fellowes meaning?

Prot.

St. Auſtin miſtooke St. Cyprians: for St. Auſtin thought St. Cyprian had beene of opinion, that Hereticks were within the Church: which (as your men ſay) St. Cyprian did not.

Pa.

Indeed, I thinke St. Auſtin miſtooke St. Cyprian p. 53foulely: for I read in zzLib. 3. de Eccle…a c. 4.Bellarmine, that, Cypriani verba nihil tale ſonant. S. Cyprians words founded nothing that way. And in aaLoc. com. l. 4. c. 2. fol. 118 a.Canus, Ego, vt quemadmodum ſentio loquar, non intelligo quid cauſ… Auguſtimo fuerit, vt verba Cypriani in eum ſenſū acceperit, qui mihi ſanè tam apparet à Cypriani mente alienus, quam Coelum a terrae natura altenum eſt▪ ſed aliquando bonus dormitat Homerus. If I may ſpeake my mind freely; I wonder why S. Auſtin tooke S. Cyprians words in that meaning; from which they are as are farre as heauen from earth: but the greateſt Clerkes may now and then be taken napping. But what other miſtaking doe you read of in old time? One ſwallow makes not ſummer.

Prot.

Iulianus Biſhop of Capna, of quick wit, and good vnderſtanding in the Scriptures, as bbDe viris Illuſtribus To. 4. … perum Hi…ron.Gennadius witneſſeth, conceiued that Chryſoſtome did not beleeue Originall ſinne was deriued from the fathers vntounto the children. Yet ccSee Sixt. Senenſ. l. 6. Ann…s. 236.S. Auſtin was of another mind: S. Auſtin thought Iulian was deceiued: Iulian miſtooke the meaning of S. Chryſoſtome.

ddSynod. Pariſ. impreſſ. An. 1596. p. 155.About the yeere 824. there was a great queſtion, Whether Images might be worſhipped. The Biſhops of France in a meeting at Paris, collected diuers teſtimonies out of Gregory Nyſſen, Baſil, Chryſoſtome, Cyril, Athanaſius, Ambroſe, Epiphanius, and Stephen Boſtron, as they call him, to proue Images might not be worſhipped: yet eeI piſt. 1. To. 3. Conc. edit. Bin. p. 256.Hadrian alledgeth the ſame teſtimonies, out of the ſame Fathers, to proue the contrary. viz. That Images might bee worſhipped.

Pa.

May I beleeue you that this is true?

Prot.

Yea: for Bellarmine grants it to be true. Plurima teſtimonia quae ſummus Pontifex Hadrianus in Epiſtola illa ſua doctiſsima pro Imaginibus poſuit iſti rurſum allegant qui contra Imagines pugnant. The many teſtimonies alledged by Pope Hadrian, in that his learned Epiſtle in defence of Images: theſe Biſhops (hee meanes the Biſhops which met at Paris) alledge them to diſproue Images, ffAppend. ad lib. de cultu Imag. c. 4.ſaith Bellarmine.

Pa.

What inſtances can you giuegive me to make it plaine, that learned Catholikes differ about the meaning of the Fathers: for I thought the Fathers had written ſo plainly, that any man might eaſily hauehave conceiued their meaning, and that all (Catholikes eſpecially) had vnderſtood them alike.

Prot.

I could load you with inſtances of your learned Romaniſts differences about the meaning of the Fathers: but I will giuegive you only a few, yet ſuch as I thinke verie remarkable. It is a great queſtion among yourſelues, Whether the Virgin Mary vvas conceiued in ſinne, or no: ggLib. 4. de A…iſſ. grattae. &c. …. 15.ſome affirming, ſome denying. Bellarmine is one of them who denies that ſhe was conceiued in ſin: and for proofe of his opiniō, he alledgeth Ambroſe Ser. 22. in Pſ. 118. Yet hhTo. 2. in 3 par. Tho. q. 27. diſput. 117. c. 3. nu▪ 36, &c.Vaſquez diſputing the queſtion, tho he be of Bellarmines opinion in the maine, profeſſeth: he durſt not cite that place of Ambroſe, vvhichwhich Bellarmine doth for that purpoſe. Mitto ex Latinis teſtimonium Ambroſij, quamuis iſtud non nulli praeclarum exiſtiment. Mihi enim verba ipſius aliud omnino ſonare videntur, &c. I paſſe ouer the teſtimony of S. Ambroſe, ſaith he, tho ſome account of it highly, becauſe in my opinion his words carry quite another meaning. That which Bellarmine thought S. Ambroſe ment, Vaſquez thought he did not meane. The ſame iiLoc…itat….Bellarmine, in proſecuting the ſame controuerſie, alledgeth Anſelme, Lib. de concepta virginali & peccato Originali, Cap. 18. Yet kkLib. de B. Virg. Conception….Petrus de Vincentia alledgeth the ſame words out of the ſame place vntounto the contrary. Bellarmine thought the Virgin Maries immaculate conception to be proued by Anſelme. Petrus de Vincentia thought that the Virgin Maries conception in ſinne was proued by Anſelme. ll…o…o citat…. m …b. ſupra …t.Bellarmine in the ſame caſe alledgeth Auſtin, and Ierome, as being of his opinion: m Petrus de Vi…centia alledgeth the ſame Fathers, as being of a contrary opinion. Hildephonſus lib. de virginita… B. Mariae, is alledged by Petrus de Vincentia, for the Virgins conception in ſinne: and yet nnIbid.he confeſſeth, that Hildephonſus is alledged by a contrary faction, to proue her freedome from ſinne. May not this ſerue for one inſtance, to proue that your learned Catholikes differ about the vnderſtanding of the Fathers?

Pap.

What is your next?

Prot.

It is a great Queſtion (as you know) betweene vsus, and you, Whether Matrimony be a Sacrament in proper ſenſe? You ſay it is ſo. We ſay, it is not ſo. For the proofe of your, it is ſo. ooLib. 1. de Maetrimon▪ c. 3.Bellarmine alledgeth Leo 1. in his ninetie two Epiſtle; and Chryſoſtome in his twenty Homily vponupon the Epheſians; and Ambroſe vponupon the fift to the Eph. and a number of places out of S. Auſtin. Whereby it is plaine, (except he write againſt his owne conſcience) p. 56that he conceiued theſe Fathers held opinion, Matromony was a Sacrament in proper ſenſe: Yet your ppTo 4. in 3. par, The. diſput. 2. …. 4 Nu. 22. 23.Vaſquez thinks they did not: for handling that point, Mitto▪teſtimonia Leonis Papae 1. in Epistola 90. aliàs 92. Cap. 4. Chryſoſtomum Hom. 20. in Epiſt. ad Eph. & Authorem Comment. in Paulum apud Ambroſium in illud Eph. 5. Sacramentum h…c, &c. qui Matrimonimm Sacramentum ſeu myſterium appellant: e… quod non loquuntur ipſide ſacramento propriè, qualia ſunt 7. quae in Eccleſia ſunt à Chriſto inſtituta, &c. ſed de Sacramento latiori ſignificatione, pro ut est myſterium & ſignum coniunctionis Chriſti cum Eccleſia de qua nunc non diſputamus. In quo etiam ſenſu exiſtimo Aug. ubique Matrimonium Sacramentum appellâſſe. I doe not vrge Leo 1. in his 92. Epiſtle: nor Chryſoſtomes 20▪ Homily vponupon the Epheſians, nor the Author of the Commentaries which goe vnderunder Ambroſe his name vponupon the Epheſians: tho they call Matrimony a Sacrament: becauſe they ſpeake not of a Sacrament in proper ſenſe, ſuch as are thoſe ſeuen which Chriſt ordained in his Church: but of a Sacrament in a larger ſenſe, as it is a myſtery, or a ſigne of the vnion that is between Chriſt and his Church, of which kind of Sacrament we ſpeake not now. In which kind of meaning I thinke S. Auſtin continually called Matrimony a Sacrament, ſaith Vaſquez. And in the qqCap. 5. de Matrimon. Sacr. n. 30Chapter following, treating vponupon the ſame Argument: Poſtquam ſingula loca Aug. perlegi & attentè conſiderani, An. 1588. manifeſſe deprehendi cum non loqui de Sacramento propriè, pro vt in praeſenti loquimur: ſed de ſacramento latior… ſignificationepro vt eſt ſignum vnionis Chriſti cum Eccleſia, ac p. 57proiude indi… authoritate ipſi… in has part… …ra haretic…s v… non debere. After that, in the yeere 1588. I did diligently read & conſidered of the places in S. Auſtin, I found it very apparant, that when he called Matrimony a Sacrament, he ſpake not of a Sacrament in proper ſenſe, but in larger ſignification▪ and therefore I thought it not fit to alledge Auſtins authoritie againſt the Hereticks in this Controuerſie, ſaith the ſame man. May not this ſerue for another inſtance to proue that your learned Catholikes differ about the vnderſtanding of the Fathers?

Pa.

What is your third inſtance?

Prot.

It is rrSee …ll…r. l. 3. … c. 3.queſtioned partly betweene vsus, and you: partly among your ſelues, what kind of certaintie a man may hauehave of his ſaluation: ſome ſaying, That faithfull men may attaine to ſuch knowledge of their ſaluation, that they may reſt aſſured of the forgiueneſſe of their ſinnes: other ſaying, not ſo, except it be by ſpeciall reuelation. Of the former opinion is … Catharinus, of the later ttL…it. c. 7. & 10Bellarmine. Both of them alledge the ſelfe ſame Fathers, Greek, and Latine, for the proofe of their ſeuerall opinions, which argues they conceiued differently of the Fathers meaning. In like manner it is queſtioned betweene vsus and you, Whether the words of Saine Peter, 1 Epiſt. 3. 19. are to be vnderſtood of Chriſts diſcenſion into hell in ſoule after his death. And your uuAnno…. in … P…. 3. 19.Rhemiſts would perſwade vsus, That S. Auſtine found himſelfe ſure that ſo much was plainly proued therby: yet xxLib. 4. de Chriſt… c. 13.Bellarmine confeſſeth; Non vult Aug. h…c locu… ad Infer…s pertiner…: That S. Austin did not thinke Chriſts diſcenſion into hell was proued thereby.

p. 58A great queſtion it is euen yySee Bell▪ l▪ 1. de Euth…i…. c. 5.amongſt your ſelues, Whether the words of Chriſt, Ioh. Chap. 6. be to be vnderſtood properly of the Sac…ament, or no: Caietan, Ianſenius, Heſſels, Tapperus, and ſome others, hold negatiuely: Roffenſis, Bell. Maldonate, &c. hold affirmatiuely. Now, Caietan proues his Negatiue, ijſ dem modis quibus Roffenſis ſtabiliuit contrarium ſententiam authoritate ſanctorum & pracipue B. Aug. By the ſame Arguments that Roffenſis proued his affirmatiue, euen by the teſtimony of the Fathers, eſpecially of S. Auſtin, as zzArtu. 15.Tapperus witneſſeth.

Grauiſitina atque exa…hſima illuſtriſsimorum to… Italia & Gallia Academia, cum Cenſura, &c. Printed at London 1530In King Henry the Eighth dayes, there was a great controuerſie among your ſelues, Vtrum ducere relictam … mortui ſine liberis it a ſit de iure diuine & naturali prohibitū: vt nullus po…ti…ex ſuper hui…ſnoodi m…trimonij contract is ſine contrahen…is diſpenſare poſſet. And the moſt famous Vniuerſities in France and Italy, grounding themſelues vponupon the Scriptures, and Fathers, were of opinion, That marrying of the brothers wife was ſo forbidden, that no diſpenſation could make it lawfull. And to that purpoſe ſome learned man made a booke. Now the Fathers, whereon the Vniuerſities, and the Author of the booke reſted were Origen, Chryſoſtome, Baſil, Hierom, Auguſtin, Greg. &c. Yet Bellarmine, and the Author of the booke, intituled, Apologia Tumultuaria▪ &c. alledge the ſame Fathers to the contrary. I did not thinke the Fathers words had beene ſo ſubiect to different conſtructions. But I muſt put off the further diſpute about the Fathers, till our next meeting, which ſhalbe (God willing) erre long, while, God be with you, onelyonly remember▪ p. 59I pray you, that which is written: 1. Tim. 6. 3. 4. and 5. verſes, If any man teach otherwiſe, and conſenteth not to the wholeſome words of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, and to the doctrine, which is according to godlineſſe. He is puft vp and knoweth nothing, but doteth about queſtions and ſtrife of wordes, whereof commeth enuie ſtrife, railings, euil ſurmiſings, Froward diſputations of men of corrupt mindes and deſtitute of the truth, which thinke that gaine is godlines: from ſuch ſeparate thy ſelfe.

FINIS.

The Errata.

pag 5. lin. 8. for with read about. p. 6. l. 19. for by read the caſe. p. 9. l. 17. threaten for threape. p. 10. l. 6. our for your. in marg. ſtaditas for ſtudites. l. 17. we for yee. p. 15. lm. 9. you ſay truely for you ſay not truely ibid. …l. 31. our for your. p. 17 l 10 read… not▪ what wee can doe. p. 20. l. 14. that read the. pa. 21 l. 25. I will vſe, read I will not vſe. p. 22. l. 3. yet the, read yet that the. ibid. fit it, read fi…ten. p. 23. l. 14. bold, read bald. ibid. l. 28. effectum, read effectum. p. 25. l. 25. a for the. p. 28. l. 22. for, read of p. 34. marg. Mallienſibus, read Maſ…il. p. 35. l. 2. was the, read was in the. p. 36. lin 22. eauden, read euden. p. 39. l. 1. Dorantes, read Durantus, p. 42. l. 6. offred read offereth.

End of the text · Alexander Cooke, The Abatement of Popish Brags Pretending Scripture to be Theirs (1625)