Against Human Ceremonies in Gods Worship, Part 2 · Chapter 4 · Section 6

Against Human Ceremonies in Gods Worship · Part 2 · Chapter 4 · Section 6

p. 394SECT. 6. Concerning Hezekias his breaking downe the brazen Serpent.

1. THis example is so pregnant, that it hath by all sortes of Divines beene used and improoved to so much as our Proposition doth require from it. The Superstitious Authors of the Canon-law, could not shut their eyes wholly against this light. For so D. Abbot (Def. of M^r. Perk. part. 1. pag. 168.) translateth that law, Dist. 63. cap. Quia. If our Pred…cessors have done some things which at that time might be without fault, and afterwards bee turned to error and superstition; wee are taught by Hezekias breaking the brazen Serpent, that the Posterity may abolish the same, wit…out any delay, and with great authority. And the same Doctor Abbot confesseth, the force of this consequence from Hezekias his example, to make against such private use of the Crosse, now, as Constantine, and the ancient Christians had of it▪ What then but the time, did hinder that good and learned man, from seeing that it maketh much more against the publike use of the same Crosse in Baptisme? I never yet could meet with that Papist, which denied the consequence: The brazen Serpent (having beene Gods owne ordinance) was for Idolatrous abuse, to be abolished. Therefore human inventions, for like abuse, much more. Yet the Def. p. 395and Rej. denie it. With what reason, shall appear….

2. The Def. gave five reasons for Hezekias his abolishing the Serpent. To which it was replied, that no man doubteth, but Hezekias had reasons, more then five, for that he did: and that the like may be alleged for abolishing of our Ceremonies. This last (saith the Rej.) should have beene shewed. So it is (say I) in the following dispute.

Let them (addeth the Replier) be abolished by publike authority, and I will undertake, reasons to justifie the action done, will easily be acknowledged, even of those that now can see none to perswade unto the doing of it. Like enough; (answereth the Rej.) and well enough: because it is lawfull, and just to abolish them as inconvenient. Now let this be well noted. In the generall answer to this Argument, it was pleaded (pag. 406.) that Ceremonies abused to Idolatry are to be abolished, if they be not conveniently necessary. Heere our Ceremonies so abused, are confessed to be such, as that, if they were once abolished by publike authority, reasons could easily be found to proove them justly abolished as inconvenient. So that nothing but publike authority, doth make them justifiable, or free from such inconvenience as deserveth and requireth the abolishing of them. And who can conceive such a vertue in publike authority, as to make that morally convenient which before was inconvenient? or to make reasons forceable, for justifying an action done; which are not forceable for justifying the same, as to be doen? Our cause by this confession, wanteth nothing but one Fiat, or act of publike authority, to make it justifiable; so farre at least, as concerneth this question: p. 396whether the Ceremonies are to be abolished or no?

3. Because the Def. did make this one ground of denying our consequence from Hezekias zeale against the monuments of Idolatry, that Hee did not abolish the Idols which Solomon suffered to bee set up in favour of his strange wives; because they were (at that time) neglected Idols. It was replied, that it may well be thought, they were destroyed by Hezekiah, and set up againe before the time of Iosiah. This the Rej. calleth rashnesse to be repented of: because it is said (2. Reg. 23.13.) that Io…iah destroyed those high places, which Solomon had set up. And was it such a rashnesse, to say that it may be thought so? the phraze is more modest then theirs, who peremptorily affirme those Idols to have beene neglected untill after Hezekias time; when the Scripture testifieth plainely, that Ahaz, Existimamus etiam, vivo Salomone, omnem illam Daemonum officinam disruptam fuisse, dilaceratam, atque disperditam. Videnturque referendae illa statuae, & luci, & ara, & reliqua idololatria monumenta (a Reg. 23.13.) ad Manassem, & Ammonem (qui excitaverant illa in eodem loco, & supra eadem fundamenta) non ad Salomonem, ante annot 250.Hezechias his father, worshipped Mol…ch (which was one of those Idols) by making his sonne to passe thorow the fire; and was so madly given to superstition, that he sacrificed under every green tree. 2. Reg. 16. Nay lesse was said, then some learned have with great probability affirmed: namely, that these Idols with their appurtenanceces were first defaced by Solomon himselfe, after his repentance; and being restored after by Idolaters, were againe defaced. Salianus (in his Annals ad an, 3309.) saith thus: We thinke also that while Solomon lived, that whole shop of divels was broken up and ruined. And withall, the statues, the groves, and altars, as also the rest of ido…atrous monuments 2. King. 23.13. to have reference to Manasses and Ammon (who had set them up in the same place, and upon the same foundation) and not to Solomon, who died p. 397250. yeares before. 250. extinctum. Incredibile dictu est. tantum scandalum ab Asa, Iosaphato, Ioiada, cum lat è idololatriam disperderent, in oculis ipsis positum, non vid…sse, aut non ausos attingere, & ad annum 3406. Mirum profecto si Idola illa post tercentos 50. annos subsisterens, quae Salomon ipse poenitens, & caeteri Reges boni sustulissent. Vtique dicendum videtur, ab impijs Regibus extructa suisse ejusdem generis fana, & Idola quae …lim Salomon in ijsdem locis extruxerat: ut illud quae aedificaveret Salomon, fit idem ac si dixisset, qualia aedificaverat.It is incredible to speake that when Asa, Iosaphat, and Ichoiada did farre and neare destroy idolatry, they notwithstanding suffered a skandall so apparant. And to the yeare 3406. it were very strange if those Idols after 350. yeares, should yet remaine, the which Solomon after his repentance, and other good Kings had abolished. So that it is probable that such like temples and Idols were repaired, and bui…t up againe by other succeeding ungodly Kings, which Solomon in former time had made: that that which Solomon builded should be all one with such like as he had builded.

Where he sheweth by divers instances, both out of Scripture, and out of common speech; how that word which, doeth not alwayes note the same singular substance; therein confuting all the ground that the Rej. had for censuring the Repl. of rashnesse to bee repented of. This sentence is the more also to be favoured; because according to the other, which our Def. and Rej. maintaine, it will be very hard to answer that objection against Solomons repentance, which Rabanus on 2. Reg. 23. groundeth on that superstition: Solomon never truely repented of his idolatrie: for if he had manifested fruits worthy repentance, he would have taken order with those Idols, which he had set up by remooving them, and (being so wise a man) never have left them to stand for stumbling blocks to fooles, as if what hee had erroneously devised, had beene well and wisely done. Salomon de admisso idololatriae scelere, nunquaem perfecte poenituit. 'Nam si fructus poenitentiae dignos faceret, satageret ante omnia, ut Idola quae aedificaverat, tollerentur & non in scandalum stu… torum, quae ipse cum fuisset sapientissimus, erronea secerat, quasi sapienter a… recte sacta relinqueret.Beside all this, it is not credible, that the same individuall Temples stood by Ierusalem from Solomons p. 398time, to Iosias; if it were but for this, that the Assyrians came even unto the gates of Ierusalem, spoyling and breaking downe all costly buildings, (such as Solomons Temples were) not sparing▪ but deriding the gods of Nations. 2. Reg. 18.

4. It was added by the Replier that those Idols should have been destroyed, (though they had been for the time, neglected) because that evill for which Iosu destroied them ought as well to have been praevented, as corrected. To this the Rejoynder answereth 1 that this is not true, except Hezekia had suspected that evill. And whoe will say, that ther is no cause to suspect evill of an Idol, though it be for a time neglected? Or can any man thinke, that if Israelites had neglected them, no Sidonian, Moabite, or Ammonite, gave occasion of any evill to be suspected by those Idols? The Spanish and Frenche Papists (to say nothing of English) when they, in passing by the Crosse in Cheapside, doe reverence unto it, give they not cause to suspect, some evill to cleave unto it? 2. The same meanes (sayth the Rejoynder) are not allways requisite for praevention, which must be used for recoverie. Yes truely, about Idols (if we judge out of the Scripture) the very same meanes. Burne then (sayth the Rejoynd.) all your Popish bockes, lest they fall into the hands of Popelings to abuse them. So will I certainly, if you can shew me, that they must be burned when Popelinges have had them in their hands, and abused them which heer you grant concerning these Idols.

5. Zanchius was cited by the Defend. to prove, that this abolishing is not the universall remedie for all abuses p. 399of Ceremonies (he meaneth) unto Idolatrie. And because the Replier could not finde the place, we are by …he Rejoynder directed to the later edition, pag. 678. where I finde these words: This rule is to be observed: that …hings grown to abuse & defiled by superstition, Tenenda est haec. regula: Quae in abusum venerunt, & superstitionibus …ontaminata fuerunt, sisiat adiaphora, tolli…a prorsus possunt, & sape etta… debent.if they be indi…ferent may, yea oftentimes ought, to be taken away. Heere (I hope) is nothing against our proposition. And yet the Def. hath nothing else to catch at, nothing else (I say) but …hose wordes: they may be removed, as signifying, that …hey may also not be removed: As if every thinge that may …e removed, may also not be removed! The Rejoynder …ddeth, that he admitteth of some Feast-days, as tolerable. I …ant, he speaketh something favorable of them: but …herin, he ney…her speaketh to our quaestion directly, nor …heweth how that which he sayth may be accorded with …is owne rule. But pag. 800. (sayth the Rejoynder) he …estrayneth the consequence to thinges manifestly Idola…rous, not to indifferent Rites. So doe we also: But the …ejoynder as it seemeth, maketh Salomons Idols, (if …hey be for a time neglected) indifferent rites, which …anchie never did. N…y Zanchie pag. 649. from this …xample of Hezekia, reprooveth those that keep in secret …he monumens of Superstition, though out of Chur…hes. True (sayth the Rejoynder) but betwixt such Mo…uments, and indifferent Ceremonies, he distinguisheth. And …o doe we, in some sense: but that thinges otherwise in…ifferent, may by becomming monuments, prove un…awfull, Zanchie never denied. To Zanchie, were added (in the Abrigement, pag. 24.) as witnesses of our consequence from Hezekias his example, Augustine, p. 400Calvin, Martyr, Wolphius, Lavater, Sadeel, Iewel, Bilson, Fulke, Rainolds, Andrues, and Perkins. To all these it was unseasonable (sayth the Rejoynder) to answer at full, in this place. We must therfor wayt (though in vayne) for a place which will seeme seasonable.

6. The Defender in fine, noted two disparities betwixt the brasen Serpent, and our Ceremonies: 1. That the Idolatrie of the Iews about that was publicke, generall, and in the same Churche; which is not so with our Ceremonies. 2. That ther was no other meanes to cure the Idolatrie of those times; as now ther is. To the former it was answered 1. that these circumstances are not rendred as reasons of abolishing the brazen serpent, in the Text, but invented by the Def. True (saith the Rej.) yet any man may conceive that they might be reasons. But for generality, I cannot conceive how it can be prooved: and the publike abuse, though it might be a reason, yet not such a one, as that with it, abolishing should be used, or suspended. But our Ceremonies (addeth the Rej.) must in comparison be likened to the brazen Serpent used well, at Ierusalem; which ought not to have beene abolished, for such another in relation to that, set up at Bethel, and made an Idol. Wherein he mistaketh much, For first our Ceremonies were never good, or well used. Calvin is allowed of by the Def. and Rej. for his moderation about them. Let him therefore speake: I answer the turne-coate, What is there in the Papacy unlike the brazen Serpent, except onelyonly the originall? Epist. 265. The Popish Ceremonies are naught from the beginning. Resp. ad Versipellem. Quid in Papatu non simile serpenti aneo, prater originem? Epist. 265. Ceremoniae Papales à suo principio vitiosa sunt.2. The Papists did not take these Ceremonies from us, but we from p. 401them. 3. It may be very well questioned, whether the serpent at Ierusalem, considered as no way commanded of God, should not have beene abolished, if the ten Tribes should have taken occasion by it of Idolatry? It was answered 2. that private idolatry is also to be remooved, as well as publike. That cannot be de facto, saith the Rejoynder. Yet thus farre it may be very well de facto, that nothing be used in publike, which is knowne to nourish idolatry in private. It was answered 3. That all these circumstances did more then agree to our Ceremonies, in the beginning of our reformation. To this it is rejoyned 1. that our Ceremonies were never the object of grosse idolatry: which he would not have said, if he had thought of the Crosse, or that the proper meanes of idolatry are as well to be abolished, as the objects. The 2. rejoynder is, that though they ought to have beene remooved; in the beginning of reformation, yet now not: which is as if a debter should pleade, that he owed indeed so much money to his creditour long agoe, but now (though it hath beene every yeare called for) he is quit by deferring the payment. Sure (sayth the Repl.) our Ceremonies are not growne better since the reformation, by any good they have done. That is not heere considered (answereth the Rejoynder) but if they bee not growne to lesse abuse? As if lesse superstition, with much mischiefe, were not enough to cashiere such Ceremonies as doe no good!

To the second disparitie, it was replied, that this is the very quaestion, whether any other meanes be sufficient to cure the disease of human Ceremonies idolatrously p. 402abused, beside abolishing? This (sayth the Rej.) you make a quaestion of. And was not the Defend. disputing against us? what reason then had he, to make ou… quaestion an argument, or answer against us? It was replied also, that experience ha…h shewed the disease of our Ceremonies is not cured, in the Dominions of our Hezekia. Yet (sayth the Rej.) the meanes (without abolishing) may be sufficient, if they were well applied, that is, given and receyved. As if the same meanes would not have been in like manner sufficient in Hezekias time, against the Idolatrie of the Serpent, if they had been well applied i. e. given, and receyved! Heerin certainly is no disparitie.

A peice of a Comparison, betwixt the Primitive, & the praesent English Churche.

1. Because the Def. 3. or 4. times, repeated, and urged, (as much making for his cause) that our Churche is so truely reformed, that it doeth most lively expresse the face, & full body of her Primitive Mother-Churche; the Repl. therfor at last, was forced to say somthing to this; especially in this place, where it is quaestioned, if we will allow it to be called a reformed Churche. He answered therfor in generall, that in the maine pointes of doctrine, and the grossest superstitions, our Churche is reformed; but in regard of Ecclesiastical government, and some Ceremonies, it is not. To this it is rejoyned, 1. That by face and body, was meant onelyonly doctrine and religion, not governement, or Ceremonies. The Defend. therfor understood p. 403this terme, as Cardinall Perone; and the Replier as D. Andrues, whoe in the beginning of his answer, hath these wordes: Points of faith seeme rather to pertayne to the inward parts, then to the face. It is the Agend (of the Churche, …e should have held him to. In that is the face of the Churche, &c. After this, the Rejoynder making all the Primi…ive Church, that was within divers hundreds of years af…er the Apostles age, out of the Centurie-writers, and others, gathereth a catalogue of errors and defects, in doctrine, and observances, which by little and little, began in those times; and thence concludeth, that our doctrine is purer then it was in the Primitive Church, and also some observances. Now 1. this extention of the Primitive Church is taken without leave. 2. Those errors of doctrine may no more be attributed to the Primitive Church, then the errors of M^r. Mountague, and others like him (who are neither few in number, nor meane for power, as things goe) may be to the English Church, 3. In the other matters of Ecclesiasticall Policy, and Ceremonies, we hold that for which the Rejoynder formerly objected unto us, as a spirit of singular singularity, pag. 384. and now confesseth to be true; namely, that the Apostolicall purity began presently after to be corrupted, and so proceeded in defection more and more. Yet all this doth not hinder, but divers corruptions may be found among us, which were not knowne in the first primitive ages. Nay let it be marked well, how strange an assertion is made up by this reckoning of the Rejoynders! In Hezekias time (saith the Defendant) the idolatry about the Serpent, could not be cured but by abolishing the Serpent: but p. 404in our most truely reformed Church, which doth most lively expresse the face and full body of her Primitive Mother-Church, this disease would be found curable without any such extremity. The meaning is according to the Rejoynder his interpretation: the disease of idolatry is more easily cured, in that Church, which doeth lively expresse the face, and full body, of those Churches, which were infected with many errors, and declining in many things, to superstition, then in Hezekias Church, most purely at that time reformed. Surely the Rej. in a great part of his glosse, forgot his text: otherwise he would never have in this manner confuted it.

Cathedrall musick with Organs.

2. THe first question was, If the Primitive Church had such chaunting Idol-service, as is in out Cathedrall Churches? The Rejoynder after some words spent about singing, (about which he bringeth not the least resemblance of that in question, untill the fourth age after Christ) excepteth first, that Organall musicke was gods ordinance in the old Testament, and that not significant, or typicall; and therefore is sinfully call…d Idol-service. 2. That all men whose hearts are not averse, by distraction, stupidity, or prejudice, feele such musicke to worke much upon their affections. To this I say 1. that his denying of Organall musicke to have beene significant or typicall, is without reason, and against the current of our Divines; taken (as it may seeme) out of Bellarmine de missa. lib. 2. cap. 15.) who useth this evasion against p. 405those words of P. Martyr: Musicall organs perteyne to the Iewish Ceremonie, and agree no more to us, then Circumcision. So that we may neglect it, and take him as saying, that nothing which was ordained in the old Testament (no not sacrificing of beasts) is now an Idol-service. 2. For that, and the other, both together, it is fit the Rejoynder should be put in minde how many, and what kinde of men, he accuseth of distraction, stupidity, or prejudice!

1. Thomas Aquinas (in whose time this faction was not in generall request,Instrumenta musica non assumit Ecclesia in divinas laudes, ne videatur Iudaizare: Musica instrumenta magis animum movent ad delectationem, quam ut per ea forractur bona dypositio. In et Test. usus erat taiium instrumentorum, tum-tum quia aliquid figurabant Operosam quandam, & theatricam musi…am in sac…as a…es induximus, tumultuosum diversarum vocum garritum, qualem non opinor in Graecorum, out Rom morum theatris unquam auditumsuisse. In hunc usum, magnu sala…ijs aluntur puororum greges, quorum omnis aet as in perdiscendus hujusmodi garnitibus consumitur, tantus sumptibus oneratur Ecclesia, ob rem pestiseram, &c. much lesse in the Primitive) in 22. q. 91. a. 2.4. opposeth thus: The Church useth no musick for divine praises, lest it should seeme to Indaize, and answereth thus: Musicall instruments doe more stirre up the minde to delight, then frame it to a right disposition. In the old Testament there was some need of them, both, &c. and also because they did figure out something. Erasmus, in 1. Cor. 14. sayth thus: We have brought a tedious and player-like musicke into the Church, a tumultuous noyse of many voyces, such as I thinke was not heard among the Theaters of Grecians or Romans. For which purpose, whole flockes of boyes are maintained at great charges, whose age also is all spent in learning such gibble gabble. At such cost is the Church …or a pestiferous thing, &c.

It is evident that that some Eccl…siasticall chanting and roarings in our Temples (scarse also understood of the Priests themselves) is a most foolish and vaine abuse, Zuinglius, Act. Disp. 2. pag. 100. Ecclesiasticum ittum cantum, & templorum boatus, ab ipsis quoque sacerdotibus non intellectos, abusum stultum, & inanem, … pietatis verae temoram pernitiosissimam esse constat. Calvin in Psalm 23 Mihi d…bium non est, quin totum illud musicae genus, pars fuerít legalis padagogia. In solemni Dei cultu, nihilo … ad canendas Deì laud…s congruere arbitror, musica instrumenta, quam si quis suffitus, lucernas, & similes legis … bras in usum revocet. Vltra progredi, quam docemur, 1. Cor. 14. impiam pervicaciam esse dico.Ps 231 Cor 14and a most pernicious let to piety. I make no question but all that kinde of p. 406musicke was a part of the legall pedagogie. In the solemne worship of God, I doe not judge it more sutable, then if we should recall the incense, tapers, and other shadowes of the Law, into use. I say againe, to goe beyond what we are taught, is most wicked pervicacy.

It would be too tedious, if I should reckon up all that have assented to these. I will adde onelyonly the two and thirty grave learned men, which were chosen in King Edwards dayes, to reforme Ecclesiasticall lawes, and observances they judged this law fitting,De divinis officijs cap. 5. Vibratam illam & operosam musicam, qua figurata dicitur aufetri plac…t. It likes us well to have this tedious kinde of musicke taken away. Certainely these were neither distracted, nor stupid men: whence their prejudice came, let the Rejoynder himselfe judge.

Chancelours, Commissaries, and Officials.

3. The second question was about these children of the earth, dealing with the keyes of Christs Heavenly Kingdome, whether they can bee founde in the face, or body of the Primitive Church? The Rej. 1. answereth plainely and roundly, No. Yet these human creatures, are those that keep most mis-rule among poore Christan men and Ministers also, in Ecclesiasticall censures, of suspension, and excommunication, with intolerable exactions. That assertion therefore of the Defend. that the Church of England doth most lively expresse the face p. 407and full body of her Primitive Mother-Church, is in one great part of it, dashed by the Rejoynder his No. 2. The Rejoynd, addeth, nor did any Presbyters execute any Church censures, without leave or consent of their Bishops, or unprea…hing Elders at all, execute any censures of the Church. Now … this is nothing to the purpose, but a meere diversion, …hat something might seeme to be said beside No. 2. For …he first, I answer with Iunius in Bel. Cont. 5. lib. 1. cap. …4. an. 27. Censures are in common to be acted by the Presbytery: so that as the other Presbiters did not act them without the consent of the chiefe Presbyter, or Bishop, …o neither could any Bishop do it without them, of and …y himselfe. That Bishops afterward dared so to doe, it was tyrannidis indignae, meere tyranny. 3. For the confu…ation of the second, I propound a remarkable place in …rigen, against Celsus lib. 3. extant also in his Philocalia, …ollected by Gregorie Naz. and Basil, set forth in greeke …nd latine, by Tarinus: were cap. 18. VntoUnto Celsus, ob…ecting that Christian teachers sought for simple foolish …uditors, Origen answereth, that Christian teachers did …irst discerne and try their auditors; and of the approo…ed, they had two orders,Nonnulli praepositi sunt, que in vitam & mores …orum qui admittuntur exquiran…s ut qui turpia committunt, ij… communi coetu interdicant, qu… ver…ab istis abhorrent, ex animo complexi, meliores quotidie redda…. one of beginners (that were …atechised) and another of those which had made fur…her progresse. And among these latter (distinct from …eachers) he relateth thus: Some are appointed who are to …ook to the life and mann…rs of such as are admitted, that they which doe ought unseemely, may, as need shall require, bee ex…luded the Congregation, and they which doe otherwise, may …e cherished, and dai…y grow better. This is the translation of Tarinus. The rest of the Rejoynder to this question p. 408hath nothing in it but wordes.

Pompo…s Bishops with sole power of Ordination and Excommunication.

4. The quaestion is if any suche were in the Primitive Churche? The Rejoynder 1. answereth concerning Pompe, that Peace and beneficencie of Princes brought in this difference of outward state. But all difference of outward estate was not meant by Pompe. For so … Ministers, that have convenient meanes for a libe… kinde of life, with hospitalitie, should be pompous. W… are not so simple, as to account the Pastor of Sutton Col… feild, (as such) pompous. Ther is certainly a pomp… that doeth not agree to a Minister of the Gospel: as th… pompous state of a Baron, or Earl (which the Defende… himself, at his third flight, unto Durrham, is risen to that requireth many idle attendants, for no other us… but onelyonly for Comportment, & Luster of state; that whic… must have so much time spent in brideling of the Bishops horses, as the ancient B b. tooke to preache dive… sermons in, as M. Hooper speaketh; that which make… a poor man afraid to speak unto his Minister, withou… such trembling, as Majestie breedeth; that which woul… make it ridiculous, for a meane man to desire a visitatio… of him, for himself, his wife, or children, in sickness… or other perplexitie; that which requireth a Chaplain… not onelyonly to doe other duties of religion for him, bu… even to give thankes at his table, and that standing, whi… p. 409he sitteth; that (to omit other characters) which maketh all his doeings Lord-like, by way of Commandement: I will not heer speak of, draw an excommunication against him; take him Pursiva…t; Iailour, see to your prison…r; as being notorious in divers of them: but onelyonly note one example, out of mine owne experience, which many others can parallel by …heirs: I w…s once, & but once (I thank God) before a Bishop: and being praesented unto him, by the cheif Magistrates of …n Incorporation, for to be preacher in their towne; the lowly man first asked them, how they durst choose a preacher, without his consent? You (sayd he) are to receyve the preacher that I appoint you. For I am your Pastor, though he never fed them. And then, turning to me, how durst you (sayd he) preache in my Diocesse, without my leave? So that without any other reason, but meer Lordship, the wholle Incorporation, and I, were dimissed, to wayt his pleasure: which I (for my part) have now doen this twenty year, and more. If this kinde of Pompe were in the Primitive Churche, or if it be not in ours, the Replier may be blamed for mentioning Pompe in his Quaere.

2. Concerning Ordination, the Rej. his answer is, that the Bishop do…th it not (regularly) all alone. What is this to sole power of doing it? If an Irish or Welch Bishop, ordeineth one at London in his chamber, or in some Chappell, and admitteth him that commended the person to him, for to joyne with him, for fashion sake, in the gesture of hands-imposing, be he of what place or Diocesse soever, in whom is the po…er o… Ordination? If the p. 410Bishop of London, ordeyneth a minister at large, and biddeth his Chaplaine, or Chaplaines, doe so much as adde their hands to the businesse, isthere power in the Chaplaine, more then in any other, that by chance may be present? Power of Ordination is not given (by our Lawes) to individua vaga, that is to say, Vagrant men, of whom the Law taketh no notice, such as were wonte to be called Hedge-Priests, but to authorized Prelats. These are toyes, to mocke the Churche (if not God) with. Such doeings were never heard of in that Church which deserveth the title of Primitive. Of Excommunication, the same answer is given; and so the same answer may serve.Iohannes Hone, Legum Doctor, Offi…ialu, &c omnibus & singulis Rectoribus &c. Cum nos rite & legitim… procedentes, omnes & singulos, quor…m nominae subscribuntur, &c. excommunicando… fore decre verimus; cumque discretus vir, M Roulandus Allen, Presbyter, eos d…m ex officio nostro mero excommunicaverit in scriptu: vobu igitur committimus, &c. ut palam denuncietis &c. Datum sub figillo Officialitatis nostra, die tali, anno tali. Let this onelyonly be added, that therin, the Bishop hath such absolute power, that he may derive the same to his Chancelours, Commiss…ries, Officials, & such like Vnderlings, to be dispensed by them, even unto the commanding of Gods Ministers for to denounce their Censures, without any discerning what aequitie ther is in the cause, and what assistance of Ministers is required, appeareth by this style: Iohn Hone, D^r. of Law official &c. to al Rectors, &c. For as much as we (proceedi…g rightly and lawfully) have adjudg…d all and every one, whose names are under-written to be excommunicated; and since the discree…e M^r. Rouland Allen Preist, hath excommunicated them, by our meere office in writing; we do therefore committ to you &c. to denounce openly, &c. given under the Seale of our Officiality, such a day, and such a yeare. If any footsteps of such an approved power could be shewed in the Primitive Bishops, all Christians might merveyl at so suddain and monstrous a defection. But both Defend. and Rejoynd. p. 411know, that it is a relique of Popedome.

Calling of Ministers, without expresse consent of the Congregations over which they are set.

5. The quaestion was whether any such tingh was in the Primitive Churche? The Rejoynder his answer is …ffirmative; that it seemes ther was such a thing: because …. It is sayd onelyonly of the Apostles, that they ordeyned Elders …o the Churches, Act. 14.23. and Titus, Tit. 1.5. appointed …he Ministers. 2. Sometime Ministers were chosen by prophesie; and sometime by lot. 3. The peoples consent was not held …f divine necessitie. For the grave Councel of Laodicea, Can. …3. restrained the people from choice of their Ministers. Beside, …he people of this Land have given their implicit consent in Parliament, to such as the Patrons and Bishops call: And if …hey doe their parts, it is as well, and sometime better, then if …hey were chosen by the people. Finally, God hath not forbidden our manner of calling Ministers, nor commanded the other. Wher 1. let it be marked, that the quaestion was onelyonly of …he peoples consent; concerning which the Rejoynder …n all these wordes, answereth just nothing. 2. The first place he bringeth against the peoples election, Act. 14.23. is the cheif place, which Protestants use to bring for it; as Bellarmine (de Clericis. lib. 1. cap. 7.) observeth of it.Hoc Argumentum …ex Act. 14 est pr…cipuum sundamentum Illyrici, Calvins, Kemni…ij, & aliorum.Acts 14 This argument is the cheife foundation of Illyri…us, Calvin, Chemnitius, and …thers. Of Bellarmines answer, the Rejoynder mak…th an Argument, against our Divines, whoe have confuted that answer, and so sufficiently answered his Argument, long before he framed p. 412it: which yet he taketh no knowledge of, but nakedly propoundeth it, as if this were the first time of beating it off the stage. It is (sayth he) onelyonly sayd of the Apostles, & not of the Churches, that they did ord…yn Elders. Act. 14.23. So (say I) it is onelyonly sayd of the Apostles, and not of the Churches, in the very same verse, that they did pray and f…st: doeth it follow from hence, that the Churches had no hand, part or consent, in prayer and fasting? If not, then neyther doeth the onelyonly mentioning of the Apostles in creating Presbyters, exclude the peoples formal choise, much lesse their consent. If any man desires large and full clearing of the place, he may find it in I… nius his Notes on Bellarmine, Contr. 5. lib. 1. cap. 7. annot. 59.63.64. where the Conclusion is, that Bellarmine doeth in this argument nugari, nothing but trifle, disioyning thinges that ought to be conjoined, as if ther were a contradiction betwixt these two Propositions: The Apostles ordeyned; the Churches ordeyned. If the Rejoynder would have brought a fitting example, he should have shewed us, that Paul, or Barnabas, being at Ierusalem, ordeyned a Minister, and sent him to Antioche, Iconium or Lystra, signifying by letters, that such a man was appointed their Pastor, though they never knew, or heard of him before. For that had been something like unto the practise of a Bishop, whoe upon the Patrons praesentation, whersoever he be, sendeth his Minister from the place, or Palace of his residence, unto a Congregation 20.30. or 40. miles of; which poor despized People, must be content, with towling of a Bell, as sufficient notice given of their Ministers fitnesse, and their necessitie to p. 413…cknowledge the same. 3. In the second place Tit. 1.5. wheras our translation hath, that Titus was to ordeyne Ministers, the Rejoynder turneth ordeyning into ap…ointing, and I may better turne it into setting, or placing. Now (which soever translation be admitted) the Rejoy. …is argument is lighter then a feather, except it be sup…osed that Titus could not effect that Ministers should be in every Church of Creete, neither by, nor with the Churches consent: which is too absurd a proposition for …ny resonable man to father. Take the Rej his translation in ordinary rigour; Our King doeth appoint Bishops; and yet they are not placed in their Seats, without some kinde of consent and election of others. And yet I hope the Rej. himselfe will not say, that Titus tooke so much upon him, as this commeth to.

4. As for choosing Ministers by Prophesie, that was very extraordinary, and therefore hath no place in the question of ordinarie calling. Yet 1. Prophesie did no lesse require the concurrence of the Churches consent, in an ordinary Minister, then it did the Presbyteries ordination in Timothies person. 1. Tim. 4.14. It was onelyonly an extraordinary cause of that consent, which otherwise should have beene grounded on the persons qualification. Prophesie also or Vision did sometime follow the Churches election, as in Celerinus, of whom Cyprian (Epist. 34. ed. Goulart.) recordeth:Cum consentire dubitaret Ecclesiae, in visione, per noctem, compulsus est, no negaret. When hee wavered about consenting to the Church, by a vision of the night he was forced to assent.

5. As for election by lot, I do not thinke any example can be given of it, wherein the Churches election of p. 414divers persons betwixt whom the lot should designe, with their consent, did not concurre.

6. As for the Primitive Churches tenet of Divine authority, nothing can be prooved out of the Councell of Laodicea, which was after Iulians time. The Synod of Africa (Epist. 68. Cypr. ed. Goul.) doeth informe us thus: The people it selfe hath power both to chuse worthy Priests, and to refuse unworthy ones. The which also we see to come from Divine authority. Plebs ips… maxime habet potestatem vel aligendi dignos sacerdotes, vel indignos recusandi. Quod & ipsum videmus de Divina autheritate descendere, &c.Yet Calvin answereth, that even that Laodicean Councell did not restraine from election, but onelyonly from disorderly electing, by themselves. And is therin learnedly seconded against Bellarmines rejoynder, by Iunius, in Bell. Cont. 5. lib. 1. cap. 7.

7. As for implicit consent in Parliament, it maketh nothing to the question. And yet it cannot be prooved, that every thing decreed by Parliaments, have the Churches implicit consent. For then the Church did implicitly consent unto all the alterations of religion, in King Henries, King Edwards, Q. Maries, and Q. Elizabeths dayes, how opposite soever they were one to another, neither can it be shewed lawfull, for the Churches of Christ, to leave their priviledges which Christ hath given them, to the pleasure of any Parliament.

8. To say, that the Patrons and Bishops sending without the Churches consent, is as good, or better then the Churches free consent, well ordered, and directed; is all one as to say, it is as good, or better, that Women should be married without their consent, then with it.

9. As for the finall answer, I referre the Reader partly to that already sayd, and partly to D. Ames his answer p. 415unto Bellarmine, tom. 2. lib. 3. cap. 3.

Ministers going to law for their places.

6. The question is, if this was knowne in the Primitive Church? It is rejoyned 1. that Bishops were often inquestion at Synods, about their title to their places, which was as much. But 1. This was not in the Apostles time. 2. Questioning before Synods, about Ecclesiasticall affaires, is of Ecclesiasticall nature; going to law, not so. In Synods all things ought to be determined by Gods Word: at the Kings Bench, and Assizes, the Iudges pronounce sentence by mans law. Yet the good ancient Bishops, were so farre from seeking a title to their places, by Synodicall judgement, that they withdrew themselves, as being afraid to have such a title put vponupon them, either by Churches or Synods: examples of which modesty, we have even in declining times, Basil, Gregorie &c. A law we finde also (Cod. de Epist. & Cler.) mentioning the same disposition:Tantum ab ambitu debet esse sepositus Antistes, ut quaeratur congedus, rogatus, recedat, invitatus, effugiat: sola illis suffragetur necesittas excusandi. Profecto enim indignus est sacerdotio, nisi ordinatus fuerit invitus. The Prelate ought to be so farre from ambition, that nothing but compulsion should draw him, though he be desired, let him give backe, and when invited, let him shift, &c. For certainely he is unworthy the office of Priesthood, unlesse he be ordained unwillingly. Certainely, these men would never have sought those places by course of law, which they hardly accepted, being obtruded upon them. 2. The Rejoynder sayth, Lawing about places ariseth upon the title of Patronage, a civill inheritance. Whereas the question is not from whence it ariseth, but if it appeared in the face of the Primitive Mother-Church? p. 416This answer is as much as to say, our Church hath a speciall wound, or sore in her face, which the Primitive Church had not; and therefore must have a plaister upon it now, in those times unknowne: that is, our face doth not lively represent that face, which is the question. Beside, if the lawing be necessary, about the Patrons civill title, what hath the Minister to doe with it, except ambition or covetousnesse, doth cause him to take other mens businesse upon him, for his owne advantage?

Pluralists, Non-residents, Dumb-Ministers.

7. About these, the Rejond. confesseth that they are the sore of our Church, but not allowed, or tolerated, fur…her then Mr. Hooker sheweth. Now 1. If they be sores, being also in the face, that is, our chiefe eminent, Convocation men, bearing them in their …ore-heads, surely they must needs dis figure the Primitive face. 2. Though I have no more leisure to seeke and confute M^r. Hook…rs mitigations, then the Rejoynd. had to allege them; yet I dare say, if the Stues be tolerated, and allowed at Rome, th…se sores are tolerated, and allowed in England, they are as well knowne; more publikely professed; they are practised in the Bishops Palaces; and not onelyonly the Court of Faculties, but most Bishops doe gaine by them. But (saith the Rej.) If you can tell us the Certaine and safe remedie of this sore, I am perswaded the Church will thanke you. But I am neither so perswaded of the Convocation-Church, not yet that the Rejoynder himselfe is so perswaded Men p. 417doe not usually give thankes, for that which formerly they did not desire, and if this Church had desired a remedie, the Convocation-men would long since have begun (according to their skill and power) with themselves, their Chaplaines, the Benifices in their gifts, &c. They would also have hearkened unto Parliament-remedies of wise and carefull Physitians, which have been often prescribed, prepared, tendered, & almost applied, but by the Convocation-men, refused, and opposed, as the world knoweth, and the Rej. is not ignorant of it. In the clouse of this question, the Rej. insinuateth, and (as halfe ashamed) onelyonly insinuateth a secret distinction, betwixt carelesse-Non residents, and another kinde, of them that are carefull: the former of which he affirmeth to have beene often condemned, though never remooved. Of which distinction, as being left obscure, I cannot speake so much as I muze. OnelyOnly this: Carefull Non-residents seeme to be such as have great care to get some pretense in Court, Vniversity, or some great mans house, for absenting themselves from their charges (which God hath laid upon them, if they be lawfully called) and some care to provide a tolerable Curate, for supplying their places. Now these the Rej. seemeth to excuse, for which they are more beholding to him, then the Churches are, upon whose spoyles they live, and aspiring by them unto higher places. And as for the carelesse Non-residents, how commeth it to passe, that non conformity can as easily be remooved, as condemned; and such condemned fellons as these, be so long reprived, after their condemnation? Certainely, if they were as great p. 418enemies to the Bishops kingdome, as they are to Christs, a quicker dispatch would have beene made of them.

Simony.

8. Of this, it was asked, if it were so ordinary either in the Primitive Church, or (almost) in the Popish, as it is in England? Heere the Rejoynd. venteth a proverb, that almost saveth many a lye; adding, that the Papists faces are washed with faire water, and foule water cast upon us: and then telleth of a Canon imposing an oath for prevention of Simony: and not onelyonly the guilty man looseth his place, but the Patrone his title, for that time. Now though all this be nothing to the Primitive Churches face, yet it is not so to be passed over. For (to begin with the last) 1. The course taken against Simony, which he speaketh of, is no Canon of the Convocation house, but a Parliament-law. Canons (I hope) doe not deprive Patrones of their title, which they have by civill inheritance, as the Rejoynder told us even now. 2. This oath imposed (if it bee generally urged) doeth make our English Simony worse then that which is found among Papists, as adding perjury unto it. 3. Because the Rej. will not take the considerate limitation of almost, in other sense, then as if it were the cover of a lye, I am content it be left out, and then desire him to proove the assertion a lye. If he cannot, it had beene sufficient for him (who so familiarly accuseth others of scurrility) to have denied that which was said, putting us to proove it. And proove it p. 419we can (so farre as vices of that nature use to be prooved) by the generall voyce, even of conformable men. Doctor Andrewes (long since) in a latine Sermon before the Convocation, tolde them enough, after his playing fashion: They give out, Non solum nos minoritas, vel pecuniâ, vel pejori conditione, Rectorias nostras paciscimur, sed & vet Majoritas, sic Cathedras vestras, vel pacuniarum summis, vel Ecclesiarum spolijs, foede canponari vulgò dictitant Quo morbo male iamdiu & habet, & andit Ecclesia nostra.that not onelyonly we Minorites doe with money, or more basely purchase our Parsonages, but also you Majorities doe either with great summes of money, or with the spoyles of the Churches, unworthily hukster your Cathedrall places, of which disease our Church hath long beene sick, and for which it hath long beene ill spoken of: Did his fere, or almost all save a ly? Ifit did then, now it hath not so much to save. For many conformable men, will almost (if I may use that word with good leave) sweare, that nothing hath hindered them all their dayes, from Benefices, and kept them in Curateships, but onelyonly the generall abuse of Simony. Every Page, and Lackie, at the Court, and many Scriviners, can tell, how much this and that Bishop, or Deane, gave to such or such a Buckingham; and how much the said Bishop received from his under Officers, and other, by him promoted. Neither is all Symony in buying of Benefices, and Bishoprickes. Selling of Visitations (which is an usuall practise of our Prelates) and such like trickes are in the same nature in the fourth degree. 4. As for washing the Papists faces with faire water, the Rejoynder may as well say, that hee washed Sodoms face with faire water, who said, that Israel, and Iudah, had justified Sodome in her abominations.

p. 420Prophane contemners of Religion, members of the Churche.

9. The question was, if so many such, were members of any Primitive Church? This the Rejoynder doeth not affirme: but denieth any members of our Church to contemne professedly our Religion. Which I leave to the judgement of every Reader; if he doeth not know some in England, who contemne Religion? I would to God, the Rejoynder were (in this point) on the true part, and and the Replier on the false. But when the practise of Religion is derided on stages, and that derision applauded by so many spectators, when those that make conscience of sinne, be they never so conformable, are scorned by so many, as Puritans; when in all Pulpits that are possessed of good Preachers, warning is ordinarily given, of scoffers and scorners at Religion: I thinke the Rej. will not finde so many assenting to this negation, as he shall to the point of Conformitie. His meaning is such, that by the same reason, it may be sayd, ther is no professed contemner of all Christian Religion, among the Papists, nor of all Religion, among the Turkes.

Carnal proceedings in Spiritual Courts.

10. The quaestion was, if suche courses were in the Primitive Church? The Rejoynder confesseth no. But (sayth he for excuse) they are not instituted, nor allowed by p. 421our Church. The confession I accept: the excuse cannot be excused. Are not those courses instituted, or allowed, which are every day practised, in the Bishops, Chancelours, Commissaries, and Officials Courts? Is it not the Church that practizeth these things? Doeth the Church neyther institute, nor allow that which it continualy practizeth? The Rejoynder in his Definition of a Ceremonie, confoundeth Institution and Observation: now, constant observation is without any institution. Is our Church a Medea, in professing, she alloweth better thinges, and professedly practiseth worse; meliora video, pro…oque; deteriora sequor? If this be true, what need any man make any conscience of those Excommunications, which sent from our Spiritual Courts, flie about the wholle land, to fetch in mony? the Church doeth not …llow them. It is no scurrilitie (I hope) to repeate that which D. Andrues preached to the Convocation-house: The Church-Censures now a-dayes do onelyonly touch the purse. Censurae Ecclesia, solam jam crumenam pulsant. Malefici, ubs stipem persolverint, dimittuntur impuniti. Stipem si nulli numereut, si nummus in promptu non est, tum vero disringitur in eos mucro Epis…opalis: confestim, uno ictu abscinduntur ab Ecclesia, Sathama traduntur, publicani, ethnici, anathema denun…ia…tur. Ridiculis in rebus, idque in optimum quemque volitant bruta fulmina, & soli metuenda crumena.Evil doers when they have payd their fee returne scot-free. If no money then have at the offendors with the Episcopal …word; praesently one blow they are cut off from the Church delivered over unto Satan, proclaimed Publicans, Heathens, Anathema. For the most ridiculous things, and against every good man, these brutish thunderbolts do fly up and downe, and onelyonly to be feared of the purse.

p. 422Taking of mony, for Ordination, Citations, Absolutions, Change of Paenance, &c.

11. Concerning any shew of these abuses, in the Primitive Church, our Rejoynder hath nothing to say▪ He turneth himself therfor to denie, or defend them, … our Church, so well as he canne. 1. No man with … (sayth he) may take mony for Ordination. To which I answer, if may be understood of a lawfull may, I think it i… true, not onelyonly of our Church, but also of Rome, as may be gathered out of the fift Session at Trent. But such mays are kept in the pocket, both there, and heer, whe… the contrarie may, de facto, appeareth publickly in the face and forehead. If any one Minister be ordeyned, o… instituted, without giving of mony, a hundred other may wonder at him, and the Starre or Planet, that was then over the place. 2. As for Citations, and Absolution… ▪ they (sayth the Rejoynder) are things of industrie, necessarily to be recorded, and therfor mony may be taken for them. As if ther were more industrie in Absolution, then in Ordination, in Baptisme, or any other Ecclesiastical Act! o… ther were more necessitie of recording Absolution, then Ordination, or Baptisme! And if ther were such a difference, or if all these required industrie in recording of them, I hope the revenues, and in-comings of our Bishops may suffize for that industrie, without new exactions of mony. 3. He affirmeth Commutation, or Panance to be grounded on Exod. 21.29.30. where it is p. 423written, that the price of an Oxe, or Bull, may be taken for he head: and it is allowed (addeth the Rejoynder) by …. Ames, Cas. Consc. lib. 5. cap. 54. num. 48. where he …yth, that the party condemned to pay twenty pound fine, may …wfully pay it, before it be required, to escape the extorting …f forty pound, or a greater mischeif. But if eyther this, or …hat, make any thing for changing the publicke confes…ion of a scandalous sinne, into paying of money; I leave (with this wholle comparison o… faces) as the Rejoyn…er doeth, to the Iurie of discreet, unpartial, and honest …en.