A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 2, Part 2 · Chapter 2
THE SECOND CHAPTER, OF the ſecond part of this Tractate: of the fautes, touching prayers.
THE FIRST PART, OF THE chapter: touching the fautes, in the matter.
TO mayntein, that we should pray, to be deliuered diuiſ. 9. pa. 492.from al aduerſity, he falleth fowly, and as yt were vponupon al fower: teaching with great confidence, that we pray for thinges, whereof we hauehave no promes. For, ſeing our prayers made withowt faith, be abominable, and no fayth ys able to be grounded, but vponupon the word of promes: yt muſt needes folow, that the praier conceiued withowt promes, ys likewiſe abominable. But then, ſayth he, we may not pray to be free from al ſyn: no more, in deed, we may in thys lyfe, becauſe we muſt alwayes pray, forgiue vsus our ſynnes. nor yet (ſaith he) pray againſt perſecution, math. 6.no nether, againſt al perſecutiō, becauſe yt ys cōtrary to that word, which ſayth that eueryevery one vuhich vuil liue godly in 2. Tim. 3. 12.Christ Ieſu, must ſuffer perſecution. Hereunto, he abuſeth S. Iohn 14 13 whatſoeuer yow ask, I wil giuegive: which, S. a1. Iohn 5. 14.Iohn hym ſelf ſoluteth, when he ſaith, that he heareth vsus in al, that vue ask according to hys vuil, and that wil, ys in hys word. Hether, he draweth the example of our Sau. Chriſt, which prayed to hauehave the cup remoued, that he knw he should not obteyn: which as he alledgeth yt, ſerueth to proue, that we owght to pray for that, which we are ſure we shal not obtein: which ys abſurd, and not onelyonly to pray withowt, but alſo contrary to faith.
Nether did our Sau. Chriſt, pray withowt promes. For as other the children of god, to whoſe condition he had humbled hym ſelf, hauehave: ſo had he a promes of deliuerance, ſo far as the glory of god, in the accomplishment of hys vocation, would ſuffer. And I deny, that (at that tyme he made that prayer to hys holy father) he knew he should not obteyn. For althowgh he knw, that he should ſuffer, yet yf I anſwer, that as towching hys humanity, he knw not the moſt infinite and extreme weight of ſufferances, which god hys heauenly father had meaſured vntounto hym, or knowing them, had throwgh the vnſpeakable force of the panges which he then was in, forgotten them: I ſee not, how thys anſwer may not be maynteyned, as a Chriſtian and catholik anſwer. For our Sau. Chriſt, takyng vntounto hym, togither with our nature, our infirmities: might, withowt al contagion of ſyn, boeth not know ſome thinges, and be ſubiect to forgetfulnes, of that which he knw: not to the forgetfulnes, which commeth of negligence, but which commeth of a ſodayn aſtonishment, and shaking of al the powers, boeth of body and mynde. Al forgetfulnes, I graunt, ys the punishment of ſyn: but that al forgetfulnes is ſyn, and vponupon al occaſions, I think, the Anſw. hym ſelf wil not affirm. As for that, he wandereth in abowt the conditiō: yt nothyng excuſeth, hys error. For we owght not to deſyre, to be free from al aduerſity, yf yt be hys wil: conſidering, that he hath already declared hys wil therein: but onelyonly of this, or that aduerſity, whereof we know not, but vponupon the euent, what ys hys good pleaſure. He hath much other fog to this purpoſe, but not worth the naming.
After, he cyteth the 91 pſalm, that no euil shal come to the: where, he manifeſtly ouerthroweth, that he hath affirmed before. For, pouerty and perſecution are amongeſt thoſe euiles, of which hym ſelf ſaith, we hauehave no promes to ground our ſelues vponupon, when we pray againſt them. As for the place yt ſelf, yt muſt not be vnderſtood, that the afflictions, shal not touch vsus. which ys manifeſt, in that, aſsigning the maner of performance ofverſ. 15. theſe promiſes, he ſaith, that the lord vuil be vuith hym in hys troble, and deliuer hym: noting, that he shal be in troble, which ys contrary to that, that he shal be free from al troble. So that, to accord the ſcripture, with yt ſelf, the meaning of of the promiſe muſt needes be: that he shal not be ouerlayed or oppreſſed, but contraryly, that the afflictions aRoma. 8.shal ſerue (as the Apoſtle ſaith) to hys good. Here therfore, a difference muſt be put betwene euil, and aduerſity: in ſuch ſort, that althowgh the ſcripture doe promiſe to deliuer the faithful frō al euil, yet yt foloweth not thereof, that yt promiſeth to deliuer them from al affliction, or aduerſity: conſidering, that that is ſometyme good for them. Hys diſtinction,Pſalm. 119. verſ. 71. ys meerly idle: the former part whereof, ys onelyonly in queſtion.
Hether alſo, he wil hauehave referred, that which commeth bdiuiſ. 16. p. 497.after: towchyng the petition, deliuer vsus from the euil. Vuhereby, whether yt were hys meaning, to proue that we should pray ordinarily, and expresly againſt thunder: let the reader iudg, conſidering, that that onelyonly ys there in queſtion. Let hym iudg alſo, whether, where he accuſeth my vnſyncere dealing: I delt not with hym, moſte fauorably. For hys wordes there, c494. l. 14.being ether withowt ſens, or els hauing a very dangerous ſens: I paſſed by, not ſticking in them, but raking that which I thowght he meant. Now to proue, that al maner of aduerſity ys noted in them, notwithstanding that by the word, euil, be vnderstood the Deuil: he alledgeth, that ſome interprete yt, that we d…ſire to be deliuered from al aduerſityes, which the deuil worketh against vsus in thys world: which maketh clean againſt hym, conſidering that diuerſe afflictions, are immediately ſent of god, other ſome by the ſeruice of good Angels, others by officers whome god hath appointed to chaſtē vsus, for that wherein we offend, againſt the good order of the church, or common wealth. And, as for the later kinde of theſe chaſtiſmentes, after the offence committed, and iudgment accordingly giuen, we owght not to pray to god, to be deliuered from them: conſidering, that that were to pray, that the cours of the reuealed iuſtice of god, should be ſtaied▪ whereby he may ſee, that althowgh the Deuil be autor of al euil: yet he ys nether the firſt autor of any aduerſity, nor ſo much as the inſtrument, of diuers aduerſityes.
To mayntein the praier, that god would giuegive vsus, that we Diuiſ. 10 p. 493.dare not ask, he alledgeth, that we must be humble, and acknowledg our vnworthynes: as yf, theſe could not ſtand with a bouldnes, of asking in the worthines of Ieſus Chriſt, whatſoeuer we hauehave need of. And, the very ſimilitudes he vſeth, condemn hym. For, what childe, comming to his father for a bit of bread which he ſtandeth in need of, vſeth to ſay: that he dare not, ask yt. Likewiſe, of one frend towardesLuKe 11. anoher, which moſte amiable names, our Sauior Chriſt wil hauehave ſet before vsus, when we come to prayer: to engender in vsus, a reuerent familiarity, with hym. And the bouldnes, that the children of god owght to hauehave, ſo much paſſeth that which we vſe, to any of our moſte deareſt frendes: as we are more aſſured of hys louelove, then of theirs. After to help hym ſelf, in ſteed of that S. aLuKe 18. 13.Luke ſaith, the Publican standing a far of, vuould not ſo much as lift vp hys eyes vntounto heauen: he bringeth hym in ſaying, he durst not come nigh, nor lift vp his eyes: where, beſide his corruption, he gayneth nothing, vnles he had shewed, that he durſt not open his mouth, to ask forgiuenes of hys ſynnes. Of the contrary ſide, ſeing he durſt ask forgiuenes of hys ſynnes, which is the greateſt petition that a man can make: yt ys manifeſt, that there is nothing needful for vsus, which, in Chriſt, we may not be bould to ask.
But here, he hath found owt another hole, to crepe into, that we should, forſooth, ſay we dare not ask, and yet ask: whereby, in ſteed of teaching true humility, he openeth a ſchole to hypocriſy, which the lord deteſteth. Not vnlike vntounto the Popes Canoniſtes, which being in great payn how to accord the Popes title of being Seruant of al ſeruantes, with his title of being lord of al: amongeſt other anſwers ſet down this, that he doeth yt of a certeyn humility of minde, not in truth, or for that he is ſo in deed. Herein alſo hys own example, vtterly conuinceth hym. For the Publican, which, he ſaith, durst not lift vp his eyes, did in deed not lift them vp: ſo that yf, by hys example, we should ſay we dare ask nothing, we owght alſo to ask nothing. I leau his examples of the Phariſey and prodigal Son, as vtterly vain and impertinent: I pas by alſo (as needles with vsus which profes the goſpel) the teſtimonies of the ſcripture, where bouldnes toRom. 5. 2 & 8. 15. Heb. 10. 19. goe vntounto god, throwgh Ieſus Chriſt, contrary to this not daring, ys playnly tawght: marueiling, where the Anſw. wil ſtay, which ſetteth hym ſelf againſt thys ſentence propounded of me, that throvugh the vuorthynes of Ieſus Chriſt, there ys nothing vuhereof vue hauehave need, vuhich vue may not dare to ask, of our heauenly father.
His firſt ſection, ys idle. In his ſecond, to mayntein theDiuiſ. 11. p. 495. exces of crauing earthly commodityes, by a particuler diſcours of them, againſt my reaſon that there ys but one petition in the lords prayer, tovuching the commodityes and diſcommodities of this lyfe: is alledged, that there is but one petition towching prayer for the forgiuenes of ſynnes, which is nothing to purpoſe. For althowgh, there be but one preciſely of that matter: yet there are ſix of that kinde, that ys towching the glory of god: where there is, but one onelyonly petition, of this kinde. Againſt which diſtinction, of thinges perteyning to gods glory and to this life, his exception, that al thinges tend to hys glory: is friuolous. For althowgh, al thinges work to his glory, and our ſaluation: yet in reſpect, that one doeth this of the own nature, the other accidentally, the one nearer, the other further of: boeth the Deuines doe ſo commonly ſpeak, and the a ſcripture yt ſelf vphouldeth this diſtinction.… Math. 6. ….
To mayntein, that we may ordinarily pray against thunder and lightning in winter &c. he cyteth the 11 of Eccleſiaſticus of thincking of aduerſity in proſperity: which (yf yt were of weight to confirm a matter in controuerſy) yet is nothing els, but that one owght to prouide hym ſelf of patience againſt that day, and not to promiſe hym ſelf alwayes, good dayes. Likewiſe, S. Mathew 24 where the Iues are bidden to pray, that their flight be not in winter: which is of a certeyn, and determined calamity, and that of a whole nation: in which caſe, I confeſſed that there owght to be prayers. Further, that ſundry perish ſodenly by thunder: to which I anſwer after, that ſo they doe by falles frompag. 497. hors, and by infinite other wayes. His reply whereunto, that theſe, which I ſpeak of, come commonly by negligence: maketh for me, for ſo much as they are ſo much the more fearful. For conſidering that beſide the bodily harm, they befal vntounto vsus, throwgh our own ſyn of vndiſcretion: we owght the rather to pray againſt theſe, then againſt the other. To that I alledged, that theſe dangers are oftener then thunder: he anſwereth not. Howbeit he thincketh yt most conuenient, that we pray against theſe alſo: in generality and with condition, I graunt, nether is this in queſtiō, but not pece by peece and ordinarily. The reaſon whereof, I aſsigned, that ſo there should be no end of begging earthly commodities: whereunto he anſwereth nothing. The ſame reaſon, I alledg afterward pag. 536, againſt the particuler thankes giuing at the churching of wemen: whereunto he anſwereth, that there owght to be for this eſpecially, becauſe yt is ſo dangerous and common: yet yt is not ſo common as ſiknes, which, throwgh diſobedience, befalleth to men and wemen boeth, nor ſo dangerous, as a number of diſeaſes owt of which one doeth not ſo likely eſcape, as wemen owt of their trauail: beſide that the reſtoring of ſome to health, towcheth the church nearer oftentymes, then this. As for his asking after ſcripture, not able to anſwer the reaſons, grounded vponupon the ſcripture: yt is vnworthy the anſwering. In the example of the Maſsilian heretikes, that held that we should alwayes pray: he doeth but abuſe the tyme, talking much, but not towching the point wherefore I alledged yt. let vsus therefore return.
I alledged, that the original of the Let any, brovught in Diu. 12 and 13 pag. 496vponupon occaſion of ſome general mortality, likevuiſe of certein confeſsions of the diuinity of our Sau. Chriſt, vponupon occaſion of the detestable hereſy of Arius: ovught, tovuching the ordinary vſe of the church, to ceas vuhen thoſe euils vuere appeaſed. whereunto he anſwereth, that we are ſtil ſubiect to theſe miſcheifes: So were the elder churches, before thoſe euiles came, and al other churches now, as wel as ours: yet, nether did the elder churches, then inſtitute an extraordinary remedy before the miſcheif, nether doe other churches now, continue yt after recouery. And in deed herein, yt is with the church of god, as with mans body: whereunto no wiſe phyſicion, preſcribeth an extraordinary diet, but vponupon ſome diſeas preſent, or apparantly approching: other wiſe, why are not there alſo extraordinary confeſsions, and letanyes, againſt al other deteſtable hereſies, and heauy iudgmentes, which hauehave bene from the beginning of the world, vntounto thys day.
He anſwereth further, that ſo the pſalme; made vponupon ſpecial occaſion, should be now vnprofitable, which is nothing ſo: for they hauehave alwaies the ſame profit, to be ſtudied in, to be red, and preached vpō, which other ſcriptures hauehave: and this for aduantage aboue the reſt, that they are to be ſung, as their name doeth declare. But to make dayly prayers of them hand ouer head, or otherwiſe then the preſent eſtate wherein we be, doeth agree with the matter conteyned in them: ys an abuſing of them. For how incōuenient ys yt, that our church, liuing vnderunder a godly Prince, should in ſted of a prayer for yt ſelf: ſay a pſalm, which complayneth of oppreſsion by a Tyrāt. Yea, when the eſtate of the churches should be ſuch, as the pſalm doeth expres: yet, conſidering that the prayers in the churches, owght to be framed to the vnderſtanding of the moſte ſimpleſt, and the pſalmes hauehave maners of ſpeaches, which the learned them ſelues, hauehave enowgh to doe to vnderſtand: yt is manifeſt, that they are not the apteſt formes, of publik prayer. That of the repetition, of the articles of our belief, is alledged to no purpoſe. For, yt is a short Sum of the whole Chriſtian profeſsion, directed againſt no particular hereſy: but alike needful, at al tymes.
To proue, that gloria patri &c may be oft repeated, at one meeting: he anſwereth, that a good thing can not be to oft ſaid. which, that I abyde in the former ſimilitude: is as much to ſay, that a man can not take to many purgations: And yf yt be ſo, as he ſaith, why is there any other thanckes giuing, then this. His reaſon, that yt is a good thing, ys not enowgh, ſo much as to bring yt into the church, much les to cauſe yt to be ſo oft repeated: vnles alſo yt be ſo good, that nothing can be, for the tyme and place, better. Hether belongeth, that of aMat. 6. 7.vayn repetitions, in the bpag. 804.end of the book. where firſt with what face he denieth, that he vnderſtood his wordes, wickedly wreſted of the Geneua translation cyted by the admonition, let the reader iudg of his wordes: wherein, rendring the reaſon of this charge, he ſaith, for the wordes of Christ, be not as they translate them, but &c. Then let hym obſerue, that of diuers reaſons vſed by me, to eſtablish that translation: he anſwereth not ſo much as one. To proue, that long prayers are not forbidden, which none denieth, alſo that the true translation is, that we should not bable much, which ys in effect the ſame with that of Geneua, he bringeth diuers autorityes: but, to proue, that our Sau. Chriſt meant to condemn, onelyonly repetitions withowt faith, or that he condemned not, when one thing is ordinarily oft repeated in a ſmal tyme, which be the pointes in queſtion, nether the 4 firſt teſtimonies, nor the 2 ſection, hauehave one word of. As for that owt of M. Martyr, yt proueth that multiplying of wordes withowt faith, is babling: but not, that that onelyonly is babling, which (to put vsus from this place of S. Mathew) owght to hauehave bene proued.
Nether doeth the example of our Sau. Chriſt, repeating the ſame wordes thriſe: help hym. For firſt yt appeareth not, in how short ſpace this was doen. Then, yt is vnmeet, of eueryevery example of prayer made in ſome eſpecial eſtate, ether of exceding ioy, or of exceding affliction: to make a patern, for the ordinary prayers of the church. For when this repetition, is engendred of a zeal, which by this ioy, or affliction (as by more wood put vnderunder the furnais) is made whotter, then commonly yt vſeth to be, in the beſt of the children of god: yt is apparant, that where this ſtrenght of zeal is not, to ſend forth theſe repetitions, and with a ſtrong voice, to cauſe, as yt were, this Ecco: there (as hypokritical) they can not but diſpleaſe the lord. Therefore, the ordinary and vſual prayers of the church, owght to be ſo conceiued: as al the children of god, by that meaſure of zeal, which the lord commonly departeth vntounto them, may be able to folow with affection. Yf ſome member can, by reaſon of ſuch particular ſcholing as is before ſpoken, ouershoot this commō mark: he hath his chamber at home alone, as our Sa. Chriſt had his garden here, where he may hauehave further ſcope. But, that the prayer of al the church, should be framed vntounto hys eſtate: is no more conuenient, then, for that ſome one laboreth of the diſeas of the gout, al the whole church should hauehave an ordinary prayer, to be deliuered from that diſeas.
The ſame aDiui. 14. p. 497.reaſon is, of the thankes giuing by magnificat, Benedictus, and nunc dimittis: which were made by occaſion of certein particuler benefites, no more to be vſed for ordinary prayers, then the Aue Maria. whereūto he anſwereth, that that pertayneth to the virgin onelyonly: euen ſo doe certein thinges conteyned in theſe pſalmes, ether agree to certein particular perſons onelyonly, or els are ſuch as can not agree to vsus. As to hauehave ſeen our Sa. Chriſt with bodily eyes, to be called bleſſed of al generations, to hauehave a ſon which should prepare the vuay to the ſon of god. And therefore, by his own anſwer, theſe verſes, at the leaſt, are no more to be dayly ſaid of vsus, then the ſalutation of the virgin Mary. So that boeth for this cauſe, and the other before alledged of the pſalmes: yt is not conuenient, to make ordinary prayers of them. Nether doeth the reſpect, that they contein the miſtery of our redemption, ſerue to make them ordinary prayers: no more, then infinite other places of the ſcripture: yt proueth rather, that they should be the ordinary textes, to preach on. The two next be bdiui. 9 & 11. Diuiſ. 17. p. 498.anſwered.
To the defaut of the book aſsigned, for that there are no formes of thankes giuing, for the releas from thoſe common calamityes, from vuhich vue hauehave petitiōs to be deliuered: althowgh he can here anſwer nothing, yet, as his maner ys, he blotteth paper. Howbeit, page 536 he goeth abowt to return this vponupon my head, becauſe taxing the want of thanckes giuing here, doe there finde faut, with the ſolemn thanckes giuing at wemens churching. whereunto I anſwer, that I doe not ſimply require, a ſolemn and expres thancksgiuing for ſuch benefites, but onelyonly vponupon a ſuppoſition, which is, that yf yt be expedient, that there should be expres prayers, againſt ſo many of theſe earthly miſeries: that then alſo, yt is meet, that, vponupon the deliuerance, there should be an expres thāckesgiuing. But whereas he ſaith, that thanckes are then giuen, for encreas of godes people, and deliuerance from ſyn: the firſt, ys here owt of tyme, as that which belongeth to baptim, and not to churching: nether is there any ſuch thing conteyned in the book. The other, is ſpoken firſt dangerously to the ſimple reader, as that which, hauing no good ſens, giueth alſo manifeſt ſuſpitiō, that ether the company in mariage, or the bringing forth of children (boeth which are commendable) is ſyn. Then yt is ſpoken slaunderously, in reſpect of the book: which, hauing no ſuch thing, is browght into ſuſpition of yt. Here alſo, yow should hauehave learned to mend your ſpeach, of our ſubiection vntounto ſyn. For, althowgh the daungerous trauail of wemen with childe, be a teſtimony of ſyn, which we committed: yet it is not a teſtimony of ſubiection vntounto ſyn, in vsus which are ſanctified: cōſidering, that althowgh, aRom. 6.ſyn dvuel in our mortal bodyes, yet it reigneth not ouer vsus, nether are we ſubiectes vntounto yt.
THE II PART OF THE II chapter, of this Tractate: of the fautes, in the form of our prayers.
TO that againſt the prayers, shred into ſo Diui. 18. 19. and 20. pa. 499. &c.many and ſmal peeces, vuhere, as in doctrine, ſo in prayers, regard ovught to be had not onelyonly to the matter, but alſo to the form: he anſwereth, that ſo the doctrine be the ſame, the form is left free, which is vnrrue. For yt owght to be doen withowt al a1. Cor. 2. 1.pomp, and owtward shew: alſo to the bHeb. 5. 12. Ioh. 16. 4.capacity and moſte aduantage of the hearers memory: and that which towcheth this point cheifly, yt owght to be doen c1. Cor. 14. 40.comely and orderly: al which thinges, as they pertayn to the form of preaching, ſo doe they to the form of prayer.
To this vncomelines, ſet forth by ſimilitude of a ſupplicatiō, made vntounto an earthly Prince: he anſwereth, that the dealing with god herein, is far other then with men, except I wil admit the popish reaſon of praying to ſaintes, which is nothing worth. For boeth hym ſelf hath vſed this kinde of reaſon ddiuiſ. 20. p. 493.before, and the eMalach. 1. 8. 14. Martyr vpō the 1. of Sam. cha. 1.Prophet, in the matter of ſacrifices, doeth vſe the ſame: Peter Martyr alſo vſeth the ſame in the caſe of prayer. where the word of god, hath determined the contrary, there this kinde of reaſoning, drawen from the vſage of men, is shut owt: but where the lord hath not preſcribed the cōtrary, there yt hath a place. Of which kinde, is the matter of comelines and decency: wherein we muſt hauehave regard, to the comely vſage, and conuerſation of men. vponupon which grownd, we ſay, that yt is comely, that the lords table should then onelyonly be ſpred, when the holy ſupper is to be miniſtred: and rather, with a fayer cloth, then with a fowl. Alſo, that yt is not againſt order, that many should ſing togither: but yet a diſorder, that many should ſpeak togither.
My anſwer, to the short prayers obiected owt of the Actes, that S. Luke ſetteth dovun onelyonly, the ſum of the prayers, ys manifeſt: ſeing in ſermons, as needful to be reported at large, as the prayers, he hath vſed the ſame shortnes. Althowgh, towching thoſe which are priuate prayers, for particular neceſsityes, they owght to be no rules, in this point of publik prayers. To that, that euen thoſe prayers, as they are ſet dovn, vuere continued, and not cut into peeces: he can anſwer nothing. whether the form of prayer, which we hauehave in this point taken of the papiſtes, be as good as that which I towched, and which is vſed of other reformed churches: let the reader iudg. That al, or the moste part of them, hauehave alowed our order: is vntrue, as may (yf need were) be shewed by recordes of the difference for yt, in Queen Maryes dayes. Diuers other rouing ſayings he hath, whereof that of our Sauiour Christes and the Apostles vſual preaching withowt textes: hath no ground. That of their preaching, withowt prayer before, or after their ſermons: is a shameful vntruth. For, prayer being aſsigned, for a aAct. 6. 4.peece of the duty of the miniſtery, althowgh yt had bene neuer (as bIoh. 17. 1. Act 2. 42. Act. 1. 24. Act. 20. 36.ſometyme yt is) expreſſed: yet yt muſt of neceſsity be intended. Oneles peraduenture he wil ſay, they prayed, as the papiſtes, in the middeſt of thir ſermons: as yf gods aſsiſtans were needles, for the firſt part of their preaching. That the Apostles, did not labour and study for their ſermons: is another vntruth, cIn the tract of the Deacons.before conf… ted.
Beſide the confuſion and waſt of tyme, in that the peopleDiuiſ. 21. p. 501. rehears word for word after the Myniſter certeyn prayers, which they may as wel doe by conſent and affection of minde: was alledged, that thereby is engendred an opinion, that the other prayers doe not ſo much pertein vntounto them. whereto he anſwereth, that there is ſpecial cauſe, why they should be vſed, becauſe they contein a general confeſsion, which al Chriſtians must, euen with their voice, confes: as yf the deſiring of thinges which are neceſſary, and giuing of thanckes for benefites which we hauehave receiued, were not boeth as general, and as neceſſary to al Chriſtians, and a thing which concerned the glory of god, as much as the confeſsion of our ſynnes. Yf yt be ſo, what cauſe can he aſsign: why the people, should with their voice pronounce one, and not the other.
My reaſon, which is, that as in the publik liturgie, the Minister is onelyonly the mouth of god, from hym to the people, ſo he is the onelyonly mouth of the people, from thē vntounto god: he corrupteth, leauing owt onelyonly in one place, and taking yt in the other, that the ſtrength of the argument of payers, might the les appear. For anſwer whereunto, he ys fayn to take the anſwer, ſeruing to the laſt reaſon, which is of the practis of the church in the a1 Cor 14. 26.Apostles tyme, bIuſtin Apolog. pro Chriſt.and after: and to apply yt to this. wherein firſt he cyteth Muſculus, which thincketh yt not vnlikely, that the diſciples repeated the hymn after our Sa. Christ, to whome I anſwer that there is no likelyhood, that the diſciples repeated the whole ſong after him: onelyonly, as the nature of ſome cExod. 15. 1. 21. Pſal 136. 1. 2. &c. Eſdr. 3. 11.hymnes doeth require, yt may be, there was a common foot of the ſong, wherewith the diſciples anſwered, vntounto our S. Chriſt ſynging firſt. And thys (no dout) is Muſculus meaning. That owt of Pliny, is nothing to purpoſe, yt being confeſſed, that the whole church may ſing pſalmes with the Miniſter: where alſo, his obiection of diſſent with my ſelf in this point, ys eaſely anſwered: namely, that the practis of the Apoſtolike church, hauing bene ſuch in the pſalmes, and not in the other prayers, is cauſe enowgh, why that which ys conuenient in one, ys not ſo in the other. Beſide that, there is no los of tyme, in ſynging the pſalmes: conſidering that the people ſing, togither with the Miniſter.
Then he alledgeth, Actes the 4: that, in praying, al the Apostles lifted vp their voices. The greek is, they vuith one accord, lifted vp a voice to god, not voices: ſo that, S. Luke noteth that there was but one voice amongeſt them al: which, becauſe yt was with conſent, he doeth aptly cal the voice lifted vp of them al, and wherewith they al prayed: euen as he dAct. 6. 2.after attributeth the exhortation made by one of them, towching the chois of Deacons, vntounto them al. Vuhere, al muſt needes cō fes, that ether one onelyonly ſpake in the name of al: or (which god forbid) there shal be aſcribed vntounto the holy Apoſtles, ether a chiledish folye, whileſt twelue, one after another, propounded the ſame wordes at one tyme, and in one aſſembly, or els a barbarous confuſion, whileſt they ſpake al at once. Here alſo, he greatly forgetteth hym ſelf. For ſetting down, that that part of prayer which conſiſted in confeſsion, owght eſpecially to be repeated after the Miniſter: his pretended examples, are of that part of prayer, which ſtandeth in asking, and thanckesgiuing: ſo that, yt ſeemeth by hys proofes, that theſe should be eſpecially repeated: at the leaſt, that they should be as wel, as the confeſsion.
Againſt that alledged for vsus, of the practis of the church in Iustins tyme, he anſwereth, that I left owt, vue al riſe and pray togither, which is to fond: as thowgh our church, prayed not with the myniſter, when yt onelyonly attendeth vntounto the prayers, albeit yt reherſeth them not after hym. And, this form of church prayer, noted of Iuſtin, ys noted alſo of DionyſiusEuſe. 7. lib. 9. cap. Bishop of Alexandria: to conſiſt, in that the people, attending to the prayers, ſounded Amen togither: which may be alſo an anſwer, to that of Baſil. The practis cyted owt of Chryſoſtome, owght not to be admitted: conſidering that in the ſame place he sheweth, that as the Miniſter conceiued one prayer for the people, ſo the people conceiued another diuers from yt, for the Miniſter: which how vnmeet yt is, in the church of god, and publikly, hath bene before declared.
That I vſed that form in my ſermons (for any thing that I know) I learned yt of the book: which vſe, forſomuch as ſome yeares after, whileſt I yet preached, I corrected in my ſelf: yt declareth, that I firſt misliked and condemned my ſelf in that point, or euer I found faut with the book. The next diuiſiō, I leau to the readers iudgment.
To this treatiſe belongeth, that which commeth after,pag. 740. of ſinging the pſalmes ſyde by ſide, where he requireth proof of that I alledged, that yt is not enovugh to pray vuith the heart, vuhen a mā may pray vuith the voice alſo: which is proued, by as many places, as we are bidden to ſyng vntounto the lord: and in that the lord wil be ſerued with al the ſtrenght we hauehave: ſo that, where nether inconuenience of eccleſiaſtical pollicy, nor want of health, or ſuch like hynder, there the lord contenteth not hym ſelf with the heart, one…es the voice be giuen alſo. And of this, the example of Anna, which hym ſelf bringeth againſt me, ys a manifeſt proof: which wagged her lippes, when, for greif, she could not ſpeak owt. His proof owt of the Corinthes, as alſo whatſoeuer he hath in this diuiſion, of contrariety with my ſelf: is a meer miſpending of the tyme, conſidering that I boeth added expresly, that vue ovught to pray vuith the voice, vuhere yt may be, and had before declared, the inconuenience of doeing ſo, in the other prayers.
Vuhere I shewed, that this kinde of ſynging ovught ſo much more to be ſuſpected, for that the Deuil hath goen about to get yt autority, by deriuing yt, partly from Ignatius, partly from heauen: he anſwereth, that yf yt came from Ignatius, as Socrates ſayth, yt is not the les to be eſtemed: which is to induceSocra. 6. li. 8. cap. the reader, to beleue this fable, that the Angels were heard, to ſyng ſo from heauen. For Socrates ſaith, that Ignatius toke yt of them: ſo that in this fable, he had rather beleue Socrates, whome apag. 350.before he accuſed of hereſy, then b2 lib. 24.Theodoretus, whom he wil not cpag. 415.ſuffer, to hauehave bene euer towched with hereſy. Hether perteineth, that which is page 606, where vnderunder pretence of indifferent thinges, he ſeemeth to alow of Organes: which, beſide the popish abuſe, renueth Iudaiſm, and hath now no thing perteyning to edification, one of the rules wherby indifferent ceremonies, should be ſquared.
His defence of his profane prouerb, matching mad men, wemen, and children togither, out of S. Paul calling the men of Crete, lyars: ys a shameful profanation, of the ſcripture. For where, S. Paul ſet hys mark, of one onelyonly Ile, he ſetteth hys vponupon the whole, boeth ſex of wemen, and age of children, throwgh the world. And where S. Paul, did yt by reaſon of hys miniſtery towardes them: he doeth yt, withowt. Laſt of al, where S. Paul did yt truly: he doeth yt vntruly.
VntoUnto the vndecency, of the ſcraping at the name of Ieſus, pag. 744.he anſwereth, that the ſame is in hauking: as yf the caſe were like, the natural neceſsity requiring the one, and no neceſſity requiring the other. Nether ys there any vndecency in hauking, yf (as yt is meet) eueryevery man doe yt ſeuerally as his need moueth: and not, as ſomewhere yt is doen, altogither. That alledged of ingendring a greater estimation of the Son of god, then of the father or holy gost, in that his name is curteſied vntounto, and not the other: he derideth, but anſwer he can giuegive none. Vuhere the reaſon is manifeſt, eſpecially with the ſimpler, which eſteme that better, to which more honour is giuen: ſo that where this is not beaten down by continual teaching, yt can bread no other opinion. And althowgh preaching did abownd, yet the ceremonies owght to be conformable, and not contrary to the doctrine: beſide the other inconuenience ap. 56 ſect. 3. of my firſt booK pa. of hys 278.before noted. After he ſaith, yt hath continued many hundred yeares: ſo hath popery. And, I beleue, when he shal be driuen to shew the antiquitity, which he aduoucheth, yt wil fal owt, that he can fetch yt from not other head, then from popery.
For, as for that he alledgeth, of the Christians which vſed yt, becauſe the Iues, abiding other names of god, could not abide yt, yt ys nothing ſo: conſidering that the Iues, hauehave that name in great honour, althowgh they hauehave not hym ſo, to whom of right yt belongeth. And in regard, that yt was giuen to the ſon of god, they hated the name of Chriſt as much, and in ſome reſpect more: becauſe, in ſound, yt is further of from their word, then the name of Ieſus. That eſpecially this curteſy should be made at the name of Ieſus, when the Goſpel is red, which conteineth the glad tydinges &c. is a foul ouerſight, the confutation whereof I hauehave before noted: whichIn the former part pa. 320. lin. 23. ſerueth alſo, againſt the ſtanding rather at the goſpel, then at the Epiſtle. That alſo, of ſubduing of al our ſpiritual enemyes by Christ &c, is friuolous: ſeing that boeth god the father, and the holy goſt hauehave their work in our ſaluation (althowgh afrer an other ſort) as wel as our Sa. Chriſt. How abſurd he is, aſwel in affirming that a Paſtor may better hauehave two benefices to preach at, then a Curate two cures to read at, as alſo in his reaſon thereof: let the reader iudg.