A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 2, Part 8 – Part 2
THE THIRTINTH AND LAST TRACTATE, AND NINTH VVITH THE D. beginning page 474: of the inconuenience of the Ceremonyes vſed in the church of England, deuided into tvuo partes: the first vuhereof, is of the general fautes, the other, of the particuler.
THe doctrine and diſcipline of the church,The first chapter, of the firſt part that the church in indifferent ceremonies, ouught▪ not to becōformed vntounto the popish Synagoges. as the weightieſt thinges, owght eſpecially to be looked vntounto: but the ceremonies alſo, as mynt and comyn, owght not to be neglected. For, if honeſt matrones hauehave regard, to the ſmaleſt part of the attire of their daughters, that yt be nether sluttish, nor gawish, nor after the maner of harlots: much more, owght that care to be taken for the church of god, that by her comely and maidenlike apparel, she may content euē the eyes of al, which louelove her ſpiritual chaſtity. And althowgh the corruptions in them ſtryke not ſtrayt to the heart: yet, as gētil poiſons, they conſume by little and little. which is rather, to be takē heed vntounto: for that the harm they doe, is to the moſte part ſo inſenſible, that the church may ſeem to dy hereon almoſte withowt any grief or ſens of yt, or goe away, as yt were, in a sleap. Hereupon, it commeth, that this part hath before bene ſomewhat laboured in, and now alſo shal hauehave her defence, but short: eſpecially when as the Anſ. beſide a heap of wordes, open vntruthes, diſſembling, and peruerting my argumentes, hath almoſte nothing worthy the anſwer.
For euen in this firſt diuiſion, what an opē vntruth is yt, that it ys one of our principles, not to be lawful to vſe the ſame ceremonies, which the papiſtes did: whē as I hauehave boeth apag. 256. diui. 2. and p. 272. diui. 1. p. 475.before declared the cōtrary, and euē here hauehave expresly added, that thei are not to be vſed, vuhē, as good, or better may be eſtablished. what an abuſing alſo is yt, to affirm the mangling of the goſpels and epiſtels to hauehave bene browght in to the church by godly and learned men: not a word of proof, being browght therefore, which afterward, he ſaith generally, of al the Ceremonies in queſtion: beſide the inſufficiency of his anſwer otherwiſe, to proue them not Antichriſtian, which I hauehave aTract. 11. di. 6 p. 522.before obſerued. what boeth vntruth, and abuſing the tyme is yt, to reaſon againſt me, as thowgh I had confeſſed al errors in our ceremonies taken away: when I name expresly, gros errors, and manifest impieties. Finally, how ſingle ſo led an argument is yt, that we may retayn popish ceremonies, becauſe we ſay the churches are reformed, and not transformed: ſeing that, as transforming may be in part, or in whole, ſo may alſo reforming? and ſeing that the bRo. 12. 2.ſcripture, noting the whole and total reſtoring of a man, ſetteth yt forth as wel by renuyng, as by transforming. who can patiently, beſtow his trauail in ſuch refuſe, as this is?
For the mayntenance of this reaſon, that the Apostles di. 2. p. 474in ceremonies conformed the Gentiles vntounto the Iues, and not contrarivuiſe, the Iues vntounto the Gentiles, and therfore, that the churches in the matter of ceremonies, should be inſtituted rather according to the patern of the churches dreſſed vp before them, then of the popish ſinagog: I refer the reader, to that I hauehave cIn the former part p. 470.already written. That the lord, forbad his people to doe ſome thinges, vuhich in them ſelues vuere lavuful: is manifeſt in the dLeuit. 19. 19. 27.law. That he hath shewed, that the Chriſtians hauehave conformed them ſelues vntounto Idolaters in their church ceremonyes, with approbation ether of the word, or of Augustin, is vntrue: onelyonly he shewed, that the vſe of thinges neceſſary, owght not to be taken away for the abuſe: which he boeth oft, and idly repeateth, as that which is confeſſed.
Vuhere I shewed, that the lord being careful, to ſeuer Diuiſ. 3. pa. 475.his people by ceremonies from al straungers: vuas ſo eſpecially, to ſeuer them from the Egiptians and Cananeans emongest vuhome they liued, and amongest vuhome they vuent to liue: he anſwereth, that the Egiptians nether worshipped, nor pretended the true god, but the papiſtes doe, which is aIn the former part p. 184. &c.before anſwered: that the Gentiles, had like ceremonies &c. which is alſo bIn the former part p. 470.anſwered: that hauing certein ceremonies common, with thoſe from whome we differ wholy in ſubſtance of religion, we may much more hauehave the ſame with the papiſtes, from whom we differ but in certeyn ſubſtātial pointes. The one part whereof, is anſwered: the other (to take yt in the beſt ſens a man can expound yt) is vntrue. For the Turkes beleue one god, and ſo doe we: and therefore, we differ not in al ſubſtantial pointes, from them. And althowgh popery houldeth diuers thinges, better then they: yet the Turkes hould ſome thinges, better then yt.
Vuhere I affirm yt, more ſafe for vsus to conform our indifferent ceremonies to the Turkes, vuhich are far of, then to the papiſtes vuhich are ſo near, he chargeth me, with diuers reproches, boeth here and otherwhere: but the reaſons in this diuiſion, wherof one is, that the lord vſed the ſame vuiſdome to vuardes his people, another, that there is greater fear of infection from thoſe vuhich are near, then from thoſe vuhich are further of, he toucheth not. As for his reaſon, that the Turk is a profeſſed enemy vntounto Christ and his name, the Pope pretending the contrary: the firſt is not altogither, and in al reſpectes, true. For the Turk, acknowledgeth our Sauior Chriſt a prophet, and giueth the true Chriſtians more reſt vnderunder hym, then the papiſtes doe vnderunder them: Nether can the pretence of the name of Chriſt, when the effect is contrary, diminish the Popes faut: ſeing beſide the enmity againſt Chriſt, the ſyn is rather increaſed by his hypocriſy. Howbeit, I wil not here diſpute, whether the Turkes or papiſtes are greater enemies: yt is enowgh, that they are boeth fallen from Chriſt, the one by errors in the head pointes of his perſon, the other by errors in the head pointes of his office: in which reſpect, as boeth their ceremōies are to be auoided, ſo in that the papiſtes are nearer vsus thē the Turkes, theirs are more to be avoided, then thoſe of the Turkes. That we doe not in any kinde of ceremonies, conform our ſelues to the papiſtes: requireth no confutation, as that for the proof whereof, the Anſ. muſt put owt the eyes, and ſtop the eares, of al. The reſt, of the fals pretence of Chriſtian liberty, is apag. 256. 257. 258. alſo in the former part of this booK p. 403. lin. 29before confuted.
bDiu. 4. p. 476.To that, that contraries are cured by contraries, and that as to establish Chriſts doctrine and diſcipline, yt is neceſſary to abolish the popish doctrine and gouernment, ſo to heal the infection crept in by the popish order of ſeruice, yt is meet that an other vuere put in place: he anſwereth, that as in doctrine and diſcipline, they hauehave ſome good, ſo in ceremonies. wherein, he toucheth not the point of my reaſon. For the cauſe why, that good which is in Popery of the doctrine and diſcipline, can not be changed, is, for that they are perpetual cō mandements, in whoſe places, no other can come: but the ceremonies we ſpeak of, are changeable, ſo that if ether better, or but as good as they can be ordeyned, yt is manifeſt, that for the cauſe aſsigned, thoſe abuſed in popery, owght to giuegive place. Again, whatſoeuer good they hauehave, ether in doctrine or in diſcipline: yt is none of theirs, but the church is. Therefore by his anſwer, as no popish doctrine or diſcipline, is fit for the church of Chriſt: ſo are no ceremonies, browght in by popery. And in deed, whē the ordinance of cō uenient church ceremonies, procedeth of the light and knowledg of the word: there being ſuch darknes and ignorance in Popery, yt is maruail, if yt could shape owt one conuenient ceremony for the church of Chriſt. The ſecond ſectiō of this diuiſion, is not to the purpoſe.
To that I alledged, of the vuay to bring a man from his diuiſ. 5. pa. 476.vice, to cary him as far from yt, as may be, which I made playn, by examples of reforming dronkēnes and ſtreightning of a crooked ſtyk: he diſputeth againſt me, as thowgh I allowed that a man might run from one vice, for remedy againſt the other: which is an open vntruth, and vntollerable, ſeing I added expresly, that I did not alovu yt, but onelyonly that of tvuo euiles, yt vuas the les: whereunto he could not anſwer. I omit that yow bring in S. Paul Ro. 3, ſaying that which he hath not. The ſentence is true, but yow owght to make a difference, betwene that he ſaith, and that which is concluded of his ſaying: eſpecially ſeing yow hauehave (althowgh vntruly) twiſe charged me, with the like.
To that of Tertullian, commending the Gentiles, vuhich Diuiſ. 6. p. 477. Lib. de Idolatria.vuould not vuittingly kepe any of the feaſtes of the Chriſtiās, and of the other ſide, diſcōmending the Chriſtians, that kept the feaſtes of the Gentiles: he anſwereth, that they cōmunicated with thē, in their Idoles: which is vntrue, there being not a word cyted here by him ſelf, importing ſo much. For, to ceas frō labors the ſame dayes they did: was not ſimply vnlawful. He chargeth thē alſo, vuith feaſting on the ſame dayes vuhich they did, alſo vuith ſending of nueyeares giftes: were theſe not thinges, in thē ſelues indifferēt, and onelyonly condēned of Tertullian, becauſe they were the ceremonies of prophane nations? and doeth he not ſee, how Tertulliā maketh with vsus, in that he preferreth the vſe of the ceremonies of the Iues which are abrogated (for that they were ſometyme autorized of god) to the ceremōies, which other prophane natiōs, had takē vp of their own brayn. This alſo, may be vnderſtood, by the oppoſition he maketh, of the cōmendatiō of the Gentiles. for, ſeing Tert. cōmendeth not the Gētiles, for that they worshipped not god with the Chriſtians, but for that they would not admit the ceremonies, of a religion contrary to their own: to make the oppoſition anſwerable, we muſt needes ſay, that he rebuketh the Chriſtians, for that they vſed the ceremonies of a religion, contrary to that they approued. For further knowledg, of Tertullians iudgment herein: I refer the reader, to that aIn the firſt booK and firſt Tractate. Diuiſ. 7. p. 478.before written.
To that of bEuſeb. lib. 3. cap. 17. Socra. lib. 1. cap. 9.Cōſtātin, diſalovuing for diuers cauſes, that the Chriſtiās▪ hould hould the feast of Easter, at that tyme vuhich the Iues did: he ſaith, that the Eaſt partes kept yt, as the Iues: which is no anſwer ſeing he sheweth not, whether he alow of Cōſtantines iudgmēt, or no. his ſecōd anſwer, that he meāt, we should hauehave nothing cōmon with them, repugnant to Chriſtian liberty: is vntrue, ſeing in it ſelf, there was nothing more free, then whether a feaſt should be kept vponupon thursday, or ſonday.
His third reaſon, that if he had generally misliked their ceremonies, he would hauehave abrogated them, cleaueth not togither. In ſteed wherof, he should hauehave ſaid, yf he had vtterly misliked ceremonies, ād not their ceremonies. For as for theirs, he abrogated them: not onelyonly in propounding another end, then they did, but alſo in diſanulling a number of ceremonies, vſed in the keping thereof. At the leaſt, this example teacheth, that if we wil hould holydayes and fishdayes, with the papiſtes: yet in deteſtation of their religion, and for avoiding of ſuperſtition, which hath crept into mens mindes by them, we owght to change the dayes.
His laſt anſwer, that as Conſtantyn changing the day, and keping the feast, put a difference betwene the Iues and Christians, ſo we greatly differ, from the papistes in the ceremonies taken from them: ys likewiſe inſufficient. For althowgh that the Chriſtians, had kept the ſame day with the Iues: yet their keping of the Eaſter, should hauehave differed from the Iues keping, as much as we differ now from the papiſtes, in the ceremonies we hauehave from them. But, they thowght yt not enowgh, to differ from the Iues, in thinges meerly vnlawful: onles they were alſo ſeuered from them, by a ceremony, which was in it ſelf moſte indifferent.
To that alledged owt of the Councels, that they vuould Diuiſ. 8. p. 478. Zaodicenſ. cap. 38. 2. Tom. Bracar can. 73. 74.not hauehave the Chriſtians communicate in vnleauened bread, becauſe the Iues did, nor dek their hovuſes vuith green bovughes, becauſe the pagans did ſo: he asketh, to what purpoſe they be alledged: yow know ful wel, that theſe goe to the heart of your cauſe. For, what can be in yt ſelf more indifferent, then theſe two, forbidden the Chriſtians: for that they were vſed, of the enemies of the church. And being a reaſon, yt muſt be general of al ſuch as the church may wel want: much more of thoſe, in place wherof, it may hauehave as good, or better. As for your often repeating, that the ceremonies in queſtion are godly, comely & decent: yt is your ouldwont, of dē aunding the thing in queſtion, and an vndowted argument of your extreme pouerty. That I cyted owt of the Councel of Braccaras is to be found in the councel and Tome I alledged Can. 74. And the 73 can. which I cyted, is generally againſt al ceremonies vſed by the paganes. for the two next ſections, I refer the reader to that aIn the examination of the D. cē ſures.already anſwered.
And that this complaint of ours is iuſt, in that we are thus conſtreined to be like vntounto the papiſtes, in any their ceremonies, and that this cauſe onelyonly, owght to moue them, to whome that belongeth, to doe them away, foraſmuch as they are their ceremonies: the reader may further ſee, in the bApol. firſt part chap. 2. diui. 8.Bishop of Sarisbury, which bringeth diuers proofes thereof, directly againſt the D. and flatly for vsus.
To this place belongeth, as that which is general, the reaſon of the offence, c before handled, whereunto page 288a In the former part of this booK p. 403. he addeth, that thoſe which are offended at this apparel, take an offence where yt is not giuen: which is (as he meaneth an offence taken) nothing els, but a demaund of that in queſtion. And yt deceiueth hym, that he conſidereth not, that the Apoſtle teacheth that an offence is not onelyonly giuen, when an vnlawful thing is doen: but alſo, when a thing, in yt ſelf lawful, is doen vnlawfully: that is, owt of tyme and place. Howbeit, yt ispag. 277. et diuiſ. 6. further ſaid, that the offence may be taken away by preaching: but yt, was alſo replied, that yt is not ſo conuenient, that the miniſters, hauing ſo many neceſſary pointes to beſtow their tyme in, should be driuen to ſpend it, in giuing warning of not abuſing them, of which (althowgh they were vſed at the beſt) there is no profit. whereunto, his anſwer (that the abuſe of meates, and costly apparel for Princes &c. doeth not take away the vſe) being of thinges, wherof there appeareth a manifeſt profit: is partly dIn this chapter.before, and further commeth to be anſwered, in the diduction of the particulers. The vntruth alſo of his ſurmiſe, that I would hereby take away owt of the church, the doctrine of indifferent thinges: is manifeſt. For, I ſpake not of al ceremonies, but of ſuch, as hauehave bene shamefully abuſed, and whereof there is no manifeſt profit: nether did I diſalow the doctrine, againſt the abuſe of them, ſeing I added, that one ſermon againſt their abuſe, ioyned vuith their remouing by them to vuhom that appertayneth, vuould doe more good, then a thovuſand vuithovut: as appeareth by the example of our Sau. Chriſt, which for aMath. 15. 2. 16. Marc. 7. 2. 14.the better rootīg owt of error, refuſed the hurtful ceremonyes, and tawght the abuſe of them together. And what wiſdome is yt, I pray yow, that by cō tinuance of the popish ceremonies, the church should reciue a wound, to the end that afterward, by continual warning, yt might receiue a plaſter: ſo that the inconueniēce which I aſsigned, lyeth in this, that the miniſters by the cōtinuance of them, should be driuen to occupie a great deal more tyme, and with les fruyt, then when they should be taken away: the confuting wherof, he is ſo far from, that he rather confirmeth my ſaying. For, yf the taking away of theſe thinges from the eyes, doeth not by and by root owt the opiniō owt of the heart, when as doctrine is ioyned withal (as I ſet yt down, and as in deed yt owght to be:) then how much les, wil the doctrine be able to pul yt owt of their heartes, when they be alwaies before the eies, and in vſe. This I made playn, by his example, vuhich should ſet one to vuatch a childe al day long, least he should hurt hym ſelf vuith a knife: vuhereas, by taking avuay the knife quite frō hym, the dāger is auoided, and the ſeruice of the mā better imployed: his anſwer whereunto, of a childe which hath diſcretion, is no anſwer, when I meant of a little childe which, by age, is not able to guide a knife. Of which ſort, yt is les meruail, yf there be amongeſt vsus: ſeing there appear to hauehave bene ſuch, in the … Rom. 14. 1. Cor. 3. Heb. 5.Apoſtles tymes. the reſt in that diuiſion, is to no purpoſe.
Hether appertaineth alſo, that in page 259 diuiſ. 5. of the ſurplice, that by vſing of theſe ceremonies the papistes take occaſion to blaspheme: ſaying that our religion can not stand by yt ſelf, vnles yt lean vponupon the staf of their ceremonies. whereunto his firſt anſwer, that they were before Antichrist: is … Tract. 11. Diuiſ. 6 p. 522.before anſwered. His ſecond, that they make no great accompt of them, is very vntrue, euen in the very ſurplice: ſeing they hauehave ſo many miſteries in yt, as Durandus in his Rationali diuinorū reckeneth vp. which anſwer alſo of his, is Hardings shift: confuted by the bishop, who aIn the defence of the Apol. 3 part chap. 5. Diuiſ. 1.sheweth, by diuers teſtimonies, what great holines they put in theſe thinges. His third, that they know we could be wel withowt them: is but an asking of that in controuerſy, and contrary to that them ſelues doe ſpeak. Alſo that we doe not (but for obedience ſake) much eſteme them: but how shal they know that, when they may ſee greater ſeuerity vſed for the omitting of them, then for the lords own commaundementes. where alſo, yt is to be noted, that althowgh the wearing of the ſurplice and of the cap, were free by the lawes of the church: yet the D. would not willingly, altogither part with them, althowgh he would not ſo greatly esteme them. the reſt there, oftē repeated: hath partly bene, and partly commeth, to be anſwered.
To that, that thus they conceiuing hope of hauing the rest of their popery in the end, cauſeth them to be more frozen in their vuickednes: he anſwereth, that they hauehave no cauſe ſo to hope, which is no anſwer. For not the cauſe, but the occaſion alſo, owght to be taken away: where yt may be ſo chepe, that is to ſay, withowt remouing any thing, whereof we may not hauehave ether as good, or better in place. Althowgh, let the reader iudg, whether they hauehave cauſe giuen, to hope that the tayl of popery yet remayning, they shal the eaſelier hale in the whole body after: conſidering alſo, that M. Bucer noteth, that where theſe thinges hauehave bene left, therevpō the 18. of S. mathevu. popery hath returned: but of the other part, in places which hauehave bene clenſed of theſe dregges, yt hath not yet bene ſeen, that yt hath had any entrance. the reſt, towching thir hopping withowt their hope &c. nether letteth thē in the mean ſeaſon, throwgh this hope, to dy in their ſynnes, nor is (yf yt come to pas) any gramercy vntounto this remnant of popish ceremonies, which doe their beſt, to kepe the memory of Aegipt with vsus.Diuiſ. 6. p. 259.
To proue the papistes triumph and ioy in theſe thinges, I alledged further, that there are none vuhich make ſuch clamours for theſe ceremonies, as the papiſtes, and thoſe vuhich they ſuborn. He anſwereth, that they doe ſo iustly &c. al which dependeth of the demaund, of that in queſtion: albeyt what meat, I beſeche yow, is yt like to be, which a popish ſtomak, doeth ſo gredily embrace? I deny not, but ſome of ours, may ſpeak for them, throwgh a good intention, they hauehave to obey the Prince: but there be none ſo lickerous of them, as are the papiſtes, nor none cry ſo lowd for them, as they: which is that I meant, and vttered. the ſecond ſection is a anſweredb In the former part p. 245. Diui. 7. pa. 260. partly, and partly cometh to be anſwered after.
Yt is there further alledged, againſt the incommodity of theſe ceremonies, that there be numbers vuhich hauehave Antichristianity in that detestation: that they can not vuithovut grief of minde behould them. The ſame perſons, vponupon ſo eaſy an opening of the wicket, vntounto this trus of popish ceremonies: fear leaſt if the aſſault should be whot, they would ſet open the gates, to the bringing in of greater packes: whereunto his anſwer owt of M. Caluin, is from the cauſe. For, let hardely his ſentence ſtrike vponupon them, which, for eueryevery light corruption in the church, wil make a departure from yt: yet their frowardnes, shal neuer excuſe the sluggisnes of them which labour not, as they may, to remoue thoſe imperfections, at which they hauehave ſo miſerably fallen. Your ſurmiſe, of transforming our ſelues dayly into a new shape, yf we wil pleaſe the people: ys (to let the reſt goe) but a wādring from the matter. For I added, that ſuch godly brethren, are not eaſely to be greued: which they ſeme to be, when they are thus martyred in their mindes, for ceremonies which (to ſpeak the beſt of them) are vnprofitable. Beſide that your proof of this, that the people are alwaies deſirous of noueltyes, which is that mans nature is deſirous of nwes: is to wide. For yt taketh the prince, and other eſtates boeth in church, and common wealth by the head: as wel, as the people.
Hether is to be referred, that yt is required, that the ceremonies should not onelyonly not offend, but alſo tend to edification: which being barely denied, by the Anſwerer, aIn the former part p. 279. Tra. 1.hath bene declared, of me. Alſo, that many of theſe popish ceremonies, faut by reaſon of the pomp in them, vuhere they should be agreable, to the ſimplicity of the goſpel of Christ crucified: which he likewiſe denieth, to be neceſſary, and might aſwel deny, that the reſt of the building should be conformable vntounto the foundation. But of this alſo there hath bene ſpoken bTract. 7. and ….before, in the matter of the church diſcipline: whereof there is (in this reſpect) one reaſon.
Hether alſo belongeth, the eight diuiſion pag. 551. where firſt he alledgeth, that in matters of order, the church is iudgment is to be preferred, before a priuate mans: where, yf he vnderſtand, that we muſt doe ſo alwaies, and generally, he differeth nothing herein, from the papiſtes. For why should we for matters of order, alwayes hang our iudgment vpō the church is sleue: rather then in matters of doctrine. The determination, of the goodnes of them boeth, is fetched (as hath cIn the former part and firſt Tr.bene shewed) from the word of god: if therfore, the church is hand, may slip in the one, yt may doe ſo in the other. And if a priuate man, may ſometyme in a matter of doctrine wake, whē the church sleapeth: he may doe the ſame, in a matter of order. But yf he vnderſtand, that the church is iudgment, is to be preferred to a priuate mans, when hers is framed according to the word of god, and not his: yt is in deed true, but then his reaſon is a meer daliance, and an open demaund of that in queſtion: Beſide that this iudgment, is not the opinion of a priuate man, but of thowſandes, and of thoſe amōgeſt which, diuers are in publik charge and autority.
Touching the next diuiſion, I know that god is the autor of al truth, and conſequently the holy goſt: but I reſiſted this, that al that ſpeak yt, ſpeak yt moued by the holy goſt, which ſeemed to me to be your meaning. And althowgh, the knowledg of god which the wicked hauehave, be his gift: yet the vſe of yt, procedeth not from the ſpirit of god, further then of his general working, wherby they liue and are moued, and wherby the Deuil hym ſelf knoweth the ſame. therefore, that which in this caſe, yow durſt not affirm of the deuil: yow owght not to hauehave affirmed of the wicked, which are led by his ſpirit.
THE SECOND CHAPTER: THAT the churches ovught to be conformed, to the example one of an other.
ALthowgh to proue, that as the churches of Diu. 11. and 12. 13. pag. 480.Christ, ovught to be most vnlike the ſinaguoges of Antichriſt in their indifferēt ceremonies, ſo they ovught to be most like one vntounto another: there were alledged, three reaſōs, one owt of S. Paul tovuching the tyme of gathering 1. Cor. 16. 1. 2.for the poor, the ſecond, of the compariſon of the children and ſeruantes of noble men, goyng (for order and comelines ſake) in one liuery, the third owt of the great Nicene▪ Councel, of the geſture in prayer: yet in his anſwer he fearethCan. 20. not to ſay, that I ſpeak wtthowt any warrant of gods word. as yf S. Pauls autority were no word of god, with hym: which, yf I had abuſed, why did he not conuince me. And when he is compelled to confes, that the vnity in ceremonies is to be wished: I would know of hym, why it is to be wished, yf yt be not, for that the word of god teacheth ſo? Yf it do teach ſo, and not by this place, why doeth he not shew ſome apter? but his cauſe falling here to the ground, for want of anſwer: he falleth to accuſing, that I break vnity. If he mean (as he owght) holy, yt is that, which is in queſtion. Alſo that we are cauſe why vniformity is not obſerued in our church: which is likewiſe, and aIn my firſt booK. p. 288 lin. 37 &c. and p. 294. l. 1.before anſwered.
Then he asketh, to what churches, ours should conform yt ſelf: and why other reformed churches, should not aſwel frame them ſelues, to ours. his reaſon, that we hauehave as good groundes of our doinges, as they: yf it be (as it owght) vnderſtood of the ceremonies, is ſtil the demaund of that in queſtion. But to leau to the iudgmēt of the reader, vpō the allegations, whether our ceremonies be as good as theirs: for further contenting his queſtion, I anſwer, that yf there be any ceremonies, which we hauehave better then they, they owght to frame thē ſelues to vsus: yf they hauehave better then we, then we owght to frame our ſelues to thē: yf the ceremonies were alike commodious, the later churches should cōform them ſelues to the firſt, as the younger dawghters vntounto the elder. for as S. Paul, in the members, where al other thinges are equal, aRom. 1… 5. 7.noteth yt for a mark of honor aboue the reſt, that one is called before another to the goſpel: ſo is yt (for the ſame cauſes) amongeſt the churches. And in this reſpect, he pincheth the b1. Cor. 14. 37.Corinthes, that not being the firſt, which receiued the goſpel: yet, they would hauehave their ſeueral maners, from other churches. Moreouer, where the ceremonies are alike cōmodious, the fewer owght to cōform thē ſelues vntounto the moe. foraſmuch therfore, as al the churches (ſo far as I know) of our confeſsion in doctrine, agree in the abrogatiō of diuers thinges which we retayn: our church owght, ether to shew that they hauehave doē euil, or els she is found to be in faut, that doeth not conform her ſelf, in that which she can not deny to be wel abrogated. Nether doeth this bring in any more popedome: thē he which teacheth, that the younger dawghter should reuerēce the elder, doeth teach that the elder hath autority, to command the younger.
That owt of M. Caluin, and Gualter, onelyonly ſerueth, for filling. for we confes, that for indifferent ceremonies, nether the churches owght to fal owt with them ſelues, nor any member ſeuer hym ſelf from the church. But yf (which he can not deny) this be the duty of the churches, to conform them ſelues one vntounto another: then there muſt be ſome to inform, and admonish thē of this dutye. Therefore to let pas the offences, which the ſuperſtition in them worketh, and to preſuppoſe of them, as much indifferency in the vſe, as there is in there nature: yet, he hath here, manifeſtly condemned hym ſelf. For, confeſsing that the churches in ceremonies, owght to be like, as much as is poſsible: he endeuoreth notwithſtāding with might and mayn, that they should not, onles al other wil conform them ſelues to ours. In ſteed wherof, he owght to hauehave confeſſed, at the leaſt, ſome imperfection of our church, in this behalf: and hauehave addreſſed theſe admonitions of his, vntounto them which (for difference in ceremonies) make a departure from the church. Beſide, that the froward ſpirites againſt which M. Caluin ſpeaketh: were thoſe that ſtuk in the ceremonial Iudaiſm, as the D. doeth now in the ceremonial papiſm, and preſſed them, as the vnchangeable lawes of god: which, he cā not shew to be done of vsus, in any indifferent ceremony. M. Gualters place, ſo far as yt concerneth ceremonies, hath the ſame anſwer.
THE THIRD CHAPTER, of the firſt part.
AN other general faut of the ſeruice book,Diuiſ. 14. p. 482. is aſsigned, in that yt mainteineth an vnpreaching ministery: partly in appointing ſo long tyme of prayers and reading, vuherby the les tyme can be spent in preaching: but eſpecially for that yt requireth nothing to be doen by the Minister, vuhich a childe of ten yeares ould can not doe as vuel, and as lavufully as that man, vuherevuith the book contenteth yt ſelf. Here, in the firſt point, he gropeth at none dayes: asking, whether this, or that be my meaning. which I playnly declared, in ſaying that the deuil vnderunder colour of lōg prayer draue preaching ovut of the church: vntounto the which reaſon he anſwereth nothing, but asketh, whether we can ſpend an hower better, then in praiyng, and hearing the ſcripture red. whereunto, I anſwer that yf with that hower, he allow an other for the ſermon: the tyme wil be longer, then the age of ſome, and infirmities of other ſome, can ordinaryly wel bear. whereūto alſo, if another hower, at the leaſt, be added. for the celebration of the holy communion: he may ſee, that ether the preaching muſt be abbridged, or not ſo due regard had of mens infirmityes.
Beſide this, there is to be conſidered, the common infirmity: wherby, throwgh ſuch continuance, the powers of the minde ſtanding ſo long bent, are dulled, and often alſo a moſte dāgerous lothſomenes occaſioned. Againſt which, our church (as others hauehave doen) should, by a godly policy, hauehave prouided: where, for this cauſe, the whole Leiturgy or ſeruice, is not ordinarily, aboue an hower and a half. Nether let any here obiect, the papiſtes long ſeruice. For, beſide that the rage of Idolaters, hath alwayes bene more ſet on fire in the fals worship, then the zeal of gods people in the tru: yt owght to be conſidered, that their prayer was more a liplabour, then any exerciſe of the minde, and their churches rather ſtages to repreſent gay shewes vntounto the eyes, pleaſant ſoundes vntounto the eares, and ſwete ſmels vntounto the noſe, then any hows for the children of god to meet in, abowt any earneſt work: and alſo, that they had reſpite, betwene their Mattins and Mas.
In the ſecond reaſon, he asketh whether a childe of ten year ould, may miniſter the ſacramentes &c. no for ſooth, but yet as wel as he, which can but barely read, yf he hauehave the ſame calling: which, being that which I affirmed, he is not able to moue, with one word of reaſon. After, he ſuppoſeth of me, as yf I had ſayd, that the book maynteineth an vnpreaching miniſtery, becauſe a childe can read yt: adding, that ſo I may ſay of the Bible, becauſe a childe can read yt alſo: which is to open an vntruth. For my reaſon is, not becauſe a childe of ten years can read yt: but becauſe, yt requireth nothing to be doen by a Miniſter, which ſuch a childe can not doe. And if the holy Bible (which is far from yt) should permit, that one which can but read yt, might be made a Miniſter, or required no more of hym, then that he should be able to read yt: then I might wel ſay, that the Bible maynteined an vnpreaching miniſtery. Yf the order of the church, doe not permit this: then the charge, lieth vponupon the Bishops neckes, which withowt any warrant, hauehave ſo bouldly enterpriſed, ſuch a shameful act. part of the next diuiſion is anſwered, in aTract. 10. chap. 1.this part: the reſidue with the two next after yt, in the bpag. 370. l. 15. &c.former part of this book.
THE FOƲRTH CHAPTER, of the first part.
TO a third faut, aſsigned in that the fruit Diui. 18. 19 20. p. 485.that might othervuiſe be taken of the ſeruice, is not receiued, by reaſon that the miniſter readeth ſome in the hether, ſome in the vpper part of the chauncel, as far from the people as the vual vuil let hym goe: he crieth owt of impudency, corruption, and falſifying, for leauing owt theſe wordes, except yt shal be othervuiſe determined, by the Ordinary of the place. Alas, how should I be free, or what armour may be giuen me, againſt theſe vntrue accuſations: which could not, eſcape the here. For in the very next diuiſiō, I expresly mention this exception, which he hath mangled and cut of from this diuiſion: belike, to the end, there might be place, to this ſurmiſe. But vntounto the reaſons, that yt renueth the fashion of the leuitical Priest, vuhich vuithdrvu hym ſelf from the people, to talk vuith god alone: Alſo that yf it be for the moſt edification, that ſome part of the ſeruice should be ſaid in the body of the church, that then yt is not ſo, vuhē other ſome is ſaid in the nether, ſome in the further end of the chauncel, and other ſome in the further end of the ſame church: Agayn, that yf yt be expedient that he should hauehave his face tovuards the people in reading of ſome, yt is vnmeet to hauehave his bakturned to them in other ſome: laſt of al, to the vndecency in trudging from place to place: I ſay, to al theſe reaſons, he anſwereth nothing worth the naming. But the ſum of his defence, is: that the Bishop hath power to order yt, to the moſte edification. wherein, how vnlawful yt is, that he alone should hauehave the order hereof, is aIn the former part Tract. 7.before declared, and how daungerous it is, let the practis in this point be iudg. For I am aſſuredly perſwaded, that the tenth church in England: hath not al the ſeruice ſaid in that place, where the whole church may beſt hear yt: And withal note (as I ſaid) what a shameful diſorder, is committed, in a matter, ſo eaſely remedied.
The place of S. Luke, is an vnchāgeable rule to teach: that1. Act. …5. al that which is doen in the church, owght to be doen where it may be beſt heard, for which cauſe I alledged yt. his cauil of the place of the font, ſaid of me to be at the church dore, in ſteed, that I should hauehave ſaid, ouer againſt the church door: is vnworthy the anſwer, eſpecially cōſidering that I ſpake more fauorably for the book, thē he, which, by this anſwer, ſendeth the miniſter for baptim beneath the church door. And ſo alſo, I leau to the iudgmēt of the reader, what was the end of him that penned the book, in this behalf: ſeing he could hardly be ignorant, that the places vſed cuſtomably in Popery, were not the apteſt for the vnderſtanding of the hearers.
And this, boeth ſeparatiō of the Miniſter by Chauncel, as Monckish, as alſo the often shifting of, the Miniſters place, as a thīg very abſurd: M. bBucer in Tract. de reforma…. Colleg. Item in Cē ſur. liturg. Anglica recens Baſil…ae edit. cap 1.Bucer boeth generally in al places, and particulerly in our church, doeth cōdemn. Ambroſe hath bene anſwered. as for M. Caluin, he sheweth, that althowgh our slaknes to beleue, be euil, which is cauſe that one ſweareth: yet that the oth is lawful, conſidering that the vſe of many thinges is pure, vuhich proceed of an euil beginning. whereby, the reader may ſee, how shamefully he would abuſe hym. for the slaknes of beleuīg, which is the original of the oth, can neuer be pure: and the lawful oth, occaſioned hereon, can neuer be but pure. So that, where M. Caluin referreth the pure vſe, vntounto a thing diuers from the corrupt beginning, and ſimply good: the Anſ. referreth yt to the corcorrupt beginning it ſelf. his cauil of my vntrue dealing, for changing his word good, into not euil: is vnworthy any anſwer.