A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 2, Table of contents

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 2 · Table of contents

A TABLE, VVHEREBY YT IS NOT VNEASY TO FYNDE, ANY OF the principal pointes, conteined in this part of the booK.

The ſeuenth Tractate. page I.

Vuhether the Miniſters of the word, whilest they be Miniſters, may bear ciuil office: not whether they may doe yt in reſpect that they are miniſters: or doe yt againſt the Magiſtrars wil, as the Anſ. pretendeth pag. 3, 4.

Ʋue affirm that they ovught not: becauſe

THeir office is onelyonly in thinges perteining to god, page 7, &c. In preaching and prayer page 7, 10.

That Christ refuſed to be Iudg, in the cauſe of inheritāce, and adultery, page 2, 3. whether refer that of the D. that criminal cauſes are not hereby forbidden ibid. & pag. 15, & 16. alſo that they may meddle with matters of eſtate, but not with occupations ibid. whē as if ether were conuenient, the later were more tollerable page 17, & 18. Hether alſo refer, the contrary examples ſuppoſed of Samuel p. 18, of Moſes, of that our Sau. Chriſt took the whip, with others p. 21, 22, 23, 24, of Peter p. 24, 25, 26, of Melchiſedek 28, of Auguſtin 26, 27, of Dorotheus and Philaeas 29.

That the Bishops, armed with boeth ſwordes, make them ſelues more feared then the Magiſtrate p. 19, 20.

The difficulty of the miniſtery, eſpecially compared with the imbicillity of our nature pag. 8, &c. whether refer, that the Bishops turn ouer to others, that which they ſay belōg to them: taking vponupon them that, which they can not deny, not to be incident into their office p. 9.

That ciuil offices hauehave pomp annexed, which is forbidden the ministers, page 3.

That this mingling of offices, began not with the Chriſtian Magiſtrate, p. 15.

That this mingling is not profitable, much les neceſſary, p. 4. Hether refer, that yt is as profitable, and as neceſſary for the Magiſtrate, to be Miniſter, as for the Miniſter to be Magiſtrate, 19. Alſo that the miniſters, hauehave les need of this Ciuil autoritie, vnderunder a Chriſtian, then vnderunder an vn-Chriſtian prince, 4, 5.

That the common wealth (if need be) may receiue the help, which the miniſter can giuegive that way, withowt this mingling of offices, 13.

That yt is as lawful for my lord Mayr, to take the pulpet, as for the Biſshop to take his iudgment ſeat, 11, 12. And that yf ether were to be permitted, with vsus (throwgh the ſcarcity of good miniſters) the first were more tollerable, then the later, 14.

That thoſe indwed onelyonly with the light of nature, hauehave misliked the clapping of many offices vponupon ones bak, 14.

That the Apoſtles them ſelues, throwgh a feeling of the weight of this miniſtery: gaue ouer euen the Deaconship, althowgh an eccleſiaſtical office, 10, 11.

That, for accomplishment of the miniſtery, we owght ſometime leau vndoē, thinges otherwiſe commāded of god: much les take vponupon vsus, that whereof (by their confeſsion) there is no commandement, 1.

That yt tendeth to the deſtruction of the body, when one member incrocheth vponupon the office of another, 6.

That yt is a ſouldiar fare, that wil be onelyonly attended vponupon, 6, &c.

That yt ys contrary to the practis of the elder churches, vttered boeth in councels, Chalcedon, 15. Carthage, 16. fathers, Tertullian, 29. Cyprian, 6, 7. Hilary, 14. Chryſoſtome, 29. Ambroſe, 6, 17. Ierome, 6. contrary alſo to the iudgmēt, of the godly learnedest of our time, M. Bucer, 6, 16. Caluin, 5, 16, 17. Hooper, 30. Iuel, 27. Gwalter, 20. I…cobus Grinaeus, 28. and others, 6.

The eighth tractate, page 32.

The gouernment of an Eldership is perpetual. becauſe

God hath inſtituted Elders in the church, which being shut from the adminiſtration of the word and Sacramentes: hauehave onelyonly to doe with the gouernment, 1. Timot. 5, 17. pag. 32, 33, 34. Item Act. 14, 23. pag. 35, 36, 37. To the ſtrengthning of which plaeces ſerueth: that the name of Elder, doeth moſt… properly agree vntounto thoſe, which had the government onelyonly, pag. 33. Item 1. Cor. 12, 28. pag. 37, 38. Item Roman. 12, 8. page 38, 39. Lastly Math. 18, 17. page 51, 52, 53.

That there be church matters, to be doen in the gouernment of the church, which the Paſtor, is not able do doe of hym ſelf, 49.

That the Eldership, beginning as ſone as there is mention of any aſſembly of the viſible church, ſtanding of diuers families: was boeth before, and vnderunder the law, 40, 41▪

That the Apostle wil hauehave yt continued vntounto the worlds end 54. whether refer, that obiected of widowes and wine pag. 54, 55: alſo of the blud, ſtrangled, and waſshing of feet pag. 62. Likewiſe that the ſuppoſed danger of altering the eſtate of the church gouernment, cā here hauehave no place pag. 71.

That the cheif offices of charity, can not be exerciſed withowt yt 51, 52, 53.

That the ſuppoſed impoſsibility, of getting able men to exerciſe this charge, can not hynder the reſtoring of this order 61, 62, 63, 64.

That yt is confirmed, by the vſe and cuſtome of the elder churches, 41, 42. Alſo that degenerating, yt reteined notwithſtanding certain markes, whereby we might come to the knowledg of yt: partly open, in cōdemning the breach of this order, 42, correcting their error 43, complaining of the want of yt 44: partly ſecret, whilest they confeſſed, that the adminiſtration of the word and Sacramentes, belonged not vntounto the Elder, but by grace and permiſsion of the Bishop, 43, 44.

That it is confirmed by the iudgment of the godly writers, boeth auncient as Tertullian 41, Cyprian 42, Ignatius 45, Ambroſe 44, 68, Ierome 68, and of our age, as Bucer 39, 68, Caluin 35, 41, Martyr 46, Beza 72.

That yt owght to be, aſwel in a kingdome, as in ſmale common wealthes 58, 59.

That yf this church gouernment, were dangerous to common wealthes: yt were more dangerous, to ſmale cō mon wealthes, then vntounto kingdomes 59, 60.

Aſwel vnderunder a Chriſtian, as vnderunder an vnchriſtian Magiſtrate pag. 49, &c. becauſe

The common wealthes must be framed, vntounto the church, and not contrary wiſe p. 64, 65.

The Magiſtrate can not diſplace, that the lord hath placed p. 50.

Otherwiſe, yt should be wors with the church, vnderunder a Chriſtian, then vnderunder an vnchriſtian Prince 49, 50.

The punishing of one faut by two iurisditions, can not hinder this, 70, 71.

The Elders, iontly with the Pastor, take not ſo much vponupon them, as the Bishop whome the Magiſtrate doeth permit 51.

That Princes owght no more to change the church gouernment, then our Sa. Christ and his Apostles, changed the form of the common wealth gouernment. 50.

There is more vſe and commoditie of the Eldership, vnderunder a Chriſtian, then vnderunder an vnchriſtian Magiſtrate 55, 56, 57, 58, 60, 61.

That yt was vſed vnderunder Conſtantine, a Chriſtian Prince, p. 67.

Aſwel in vplandish townes, as in great Cities, page 44. &c, becauſe

The Apostles did inſtitute yt, church by church, 45.

That there is the ſame vſe of yt here, aſwel as there, 45, 46, 47.

The goſpel (whereof the diſcipline is a part) went owt of Ieruſalem into vplandish townes, aſwel as into cyties, 25.

S. Paul, inioyning this order vntounto Timothe, inſtructed hym, aſwel of the gouernment of the churches in the countrey, as in the Citie 45.

The Bishop being shewed, to belong vntounto the churches in the countrey, aſwel as vntounto thoſe in the citie: the Eldership, which is giuen for his aſsiſtance, must doe the ſame 45.

The Paſtor there, can not doe al by hym ſelf alone 49.

Otherwiſe, there should be an inaequalite browght in amongeſt the churches, which the D. hym ſelf misliketh, 45.

The Apostles, ſtudying to conform the churches one to an other, in ſmaler matters: did yt muche more in this 45.

The vſe of the elder churches, was ſuche, 46, 47.

Of the reformation of the prebendes and Canons &c. which are a part of the ruines of this Eldership: and of the applying of their liuings, to the erecting of Colledges 73, 74, 75, 76.

The ninth Tractate pag. 77.

Of excommunication, which is a ſeparatiō from the cōpany of the viſible church: and not of the excommunication owt of heauen onelyonly.

Excomunication belongeth to the church. becauſe,

Our Sa. Christ inſtituted yt to be doen by the church, pag. 78, 79. whether refer that obiected owt of math. 16. and Iohn 20, 82, 83. whereby notwithſtanding the D. cauſe falleth 83.

The Apoſtles and the holy writers of the ſcripture, communicate the ſame power with the church 79, 81, 82. whether refer that ſuppoſed of S. Pauls ſole excommunicating of the inceſtuous Corinth, 80: likewiſe of Alexander 83, 84: alſo of Titus auoiding an heretike 84. further, that the church is ioyned with the Bishop, as a doer, not as a looker on, or witnes onelyonly 81.

The holy gost chideth the church, for that yt vſed not this power 82.

That Princes ſubiection vntounto this diſcipline of the church, hindereth not any more the excominunication by the church, then by the Bishop 92, 93, 94.

The church hath power to abſolue, 80.

Yt belonged vntounto the church of Iſrael, to rid their howſes of leuen, at the Paſover 79, 80.

Yt was doen by the elder churches, and with approbation of their Doctors: in Tertullians tyme 87, in Cyprians 87, 88, 89, 90: Likewiſe in Ieromes and Auguſtins times 90, 91: confirmed by the godly learned of our tyme, M. Zwinglius, 92. Caluin, 90, 91. Martyr, 92.

Not therefore to the Bishop alone: eſpecially

Vuhen by his ſole excommunication, he hath prophaned the glory of god: browght the church to a miſerable ſervitude, not to hym ſelf alone, but to his ſeruantes alſo, 95, 96. broken in to the Magiſtrats office, 94. pilled the princis ſubiectes, 95, 96.

Vuhen he may not pas ſmaller matters in the church, by hym ſelf alone, 77.

Vuhen, for his ſole excōmunication, there is not ſo muche as one approued example, or writer to be shewed, 85, 86, 89, &c. ſome of the papiſtes them ſelues, being ashamed of this ſole autoritie of the Bishop, 77.

Tractate the tenth, page 99.

The Deacons office, ſtandeth in the care for the poor: and not in the adminiſtration of the word and baptim: becauſe

This office, is ſo inſtituted, Rom. 12, 8, 99, 100, 101.

The Apostle, deuiding the miniſteries of the word, maketh no mention of the Deacon, 102. Hether refer, the exceptions of Phillip, 103, 104. and Steven, 106, 107.

The Apostle, deſcribing the qualities of the Deacō, maketh no mention of his …ptnes to teach, 102.

Yf yt were a ſtep to the miniſtery: (as yt is not 108,) thereof foloweth, that yt is not the miniſtery. 107.

Yt is an oppoſite member, which, togither with the miniſtery of the word, helpeth to deuide one whole, 101.

In doeing boeth, he should hauehave need of greater giftes, then the Apostles, or the paſtor, 101, 102. whether refer, that the Apoſtles and other, indued with extraordinary giftes, labored their ſermons, 101, 102.

By the ſame reaſon, they are barred from the adminiſtration of the ſupper: they owght to be likewiſe, from that of baptim, 104, 105.

The iudgment of the elder church, was ſuch, 109, 110. whether refer, that where they meddled with ether. the adminiſtration of the word or Sacraments: they did yt by a nw cōmiſsion, and not by vertu of the Deaconship, 109. Alſo of the godly learned of our age, M. Bucer, Caluin, Martyr, Beza, 99, 109, 113.

The Deaconship, owght to be in eueryevery Church, 113, 114.

Likewiſe vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate, 100, 111, 112, 113.

Tractate the eleuenth, page 116.

Of the corruptions in doctrine, about the holy Sacraments: the first chapter whereof, is againſt the ſacriledg of priuate perſons, wemen eſpecially, in adminiſtring baptim: becauſe,

Yt confirmeth the error of the condēnatiō of thē, which dy withowt baptim, 133. when as the want of baptim, oneles yt be with neglect or cōtemt, is not onelyonly no probable ſign of condemnation, or cauſe why we are no Chriſtians, but alſo is, in no reſpect praeiudicial: and where that neglect or cōtemt is (which can be none when yt is with al conuenient ſpeed, browght to be baptized by the publik miniſter, in the congregation) yt returneth vponupon the parents onelyonly, 124, 125, 134, 135.

Yt is void, which is ſo miniſtred, 134. becauſe (the washing from our ſynnes, coming onelyonly frō our Sa. Chriſt) to hauehave confirmation of our faith by this ſacramēt, yt is required that yt be miniſtred by hym, whome he hath ſet in his place, 138, 139. As the princis ſeal ſtollen, and ſet to, by one to whome yt belongeth not, bringeth no ſecurity, &c. 139. whether refer, that yt is more lawfully adminiſtred, by a miniſter which is an heretik, then by a priuate perſon, which is a catholik, 131. Alſo that not to hauehave he rein chois, of hym that adminiſtreth the ſacrament: approcheth to the dotage of the papists, in the Shepards conſecration, 138. Hether refer, that the keping of the wordes, I baptiz the in the name, &c. are not onelyonly of the ſubſtance of baptim, 136, 137, 138. As he that propoundeth the word withowt vocation preacheth not, 141, 142. As he that taketh part of the wordes of the ſcripture, paſsing by another part: propoundeth not the ſcripture, but a deviſe of his own brain, 141. As the communicatiō in bread, withowt the cup, is no ſupper of the lord, 140. As a priuate man which, killing a murtherer, executeth no iuſtice, but is hym ſelf a murtherer, 139. As the ſeal, of the ſame matter and figure with the Princis, withowt his autoritie, is none of his, 139.

God hath inſtituted, that thoſe onelyonly should baptiz, which hauehave (that wemen can not) vocation to preach, 116, 117. Hether refer, the making of the Ark, 117, 118. Alſo of S. Paul, which, hauing commiſsion to preach, as a thing annexed to preaching, adminiſtred baptim, 118, 119. further, that otherwiſe there should be no commandement in the ſcripture, to hinder, that wemen may not aſwel be taken to the ordinary adminiſtration of the ſacramentes, as men, 118, 119. Hether alſo refer, that alledged of the wemens preaching, 122, 123. of Pauls baptizing, and others at the commandement of Peter, withowt a calling, 119, 120, 121. Origins example, 130, 131.

None may take honor vntounto hym ſelf, but he that is called as was Aron, 128.

No not ſo much as in priuate howſes, althowgh they may teach privately, 124.

Nor in the tyme of the ſuppoſed neceſsity 128, 129, 130, 132. Hether refer, that of Sephora 126, 127

The iudgmēt of the godly learned boeth aūciēt and of our tyme: Coūcel of Carthage 132, Cyprian, Chryſoſtome 130, Caluin 117, Bullinger 133, Beza 130.

Infantes of boeth parents Papiſts, owght not to be baptized 142.

The ſecond chapter, of the corruptions, in the ſacrament of the holy ſupper 144.

Against the receiuing by two or three with vsus 144, 145, 146.

Knowen papists not to be admitted, much les comppelled to the ſupper, 147, 148.

Examination of thoſe, whoſe knowledg in the principal points of religion, is douted of: is commanded in the ſcriptures 148, 149, 150.

The tvuelfth Tractate page 151.

The adminiſtration of the church matters, vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate: doeth ordinarily and principally, belong vntounto the church officers. becauſe

By the word of god, the matters perteining vntounto god, are committed vntounto the Prieſts and Leuites, the matters perteining vntounto the common wealth, being committed to Ciuil perſons, 152, 153, 154. Nether maketh yt against this, that certein Leuites handled common wealth matters 154: or that certein kinges, determined of church matters 166

The church gouernours are, by calling, the fittest to determinyn of them, 158, 159. whether refer, that the ſcripture requireth not of the ciuil magistrate, that he should be able, to conuince an heretik.

The church lawes, are called the Bishops and not the Emperours decrees, 155, 156.

Althowgh yt belong vntounto the Magiſtrate, to make lawes for a Chriſtian common wealth: yet yt foloweth not thereof, that he may make lawes for the church: the diſtinction of the church and common wealth remaining, euen vnderunder a Chriſtian magistrate, pa. 151, 152.

Althowgh in confuſed tymes, yet not in wel ordered, 165, 166.

Yt is one thing, to make lawes for the church, & another thing to put in execution the lawes alredy made, whether deuine or eccleſiaſtical: ſo that althowgh the later belōg vntounto the Magiſtrate, yet thereof foloweth not, that the former doeth ſo, 153, 156, 161.

The danger of the Miniſters erring, in the determination of theſe matters: letteth not this right of theirs 167.

Nor that the papiſts, hould ſome point herein with vsus: from whome notwithſtanding, euen in this cauſe, we differ manifoldly, 164, 165, 166, 167.

The learnedest and godlieſt, boeth ould and nw, confirm yt: Conſtantine the great 157, 163, Hillary, 155, 156, Ambroſe, 156, 161, and other bishops of his tyme 162, Auguſtine, 163, Bucer, Caluin, Beza, 168, the Bishop of Salisbury, 159, 162, Nowel, 159, euen the D. hym ſelf 164

The thirtinth Tractate.

Of the indifferent ceremonyes: the frute and neceſsitie whereof is shewed, 171.

The former part whereof, is of the ceremonies in general.

The first chapter of which former part is: that the church of Christ, owght not to be like in ceremonies, vntounto the ſynagog of Antichrist. becauſe

The Apostles, conformed the Gentiles to the lwes, not contrariwiſe, 172

The lord ſeuered his people from prophane nations, in thinges otherwiſe indifferent, 172

Eſpecially from thoſe, with whoſe corruptions in religiō they were entangled, and with whome they lyued, and had occaſiō of conuerſation: in which reſpect, yt is les danger for vsus, to be like, in this point, vntounto the Turkes, thē vntounto the Papiſtes, 172, 173, 174.

The conformitye offendeth the papiſtes, 177: namely in that they take occaſion, of ſpeaking euil of our religion, as if it yt could not ſtād withowt the ayd, of their ceremonies, 178, 179. Alſo, that thereby they conceyue hope, of bringing in again, their other corruptions: whereby they hardē thē ſelues in their error: likewiſe, that they aſcribe holynes to them, 79, 180. whether refer, that yt is no ſufficient exception, that the people be warned of the abvſe, by preaching, 177, 178.

Yt bringeth greif of mynde, to many that are godly myneded, and to the weaker ſort, occaſion of a moſte dangerous fal, 180.

Yt aedifieth not, 180, 181.

The popish ceremonies, hauehave pomp annexed, 180, 181.

Euen as to eſtablish the doctrine and diſcipline of the goſpel, the Antichriſtian must be removed: ſo to remedy the infection, crept in by the ceremonies, they alſo owght to be removed, 174.

The godly and learned, boeth ould and of our tyme, confirm yt: The councel of Laodicea, of Braccara, 176, 177. Tertulliā, 175. Conſtātine the great, 175, 176. The Bishop of Salesbury, 177. Nether is the decree of any church, of that autority, as to binde vsus, that, euen in the matter of ceremonies, her iudgmēt should not be examined, by the word of god.

The ſecond Chapter.

Of the first part of this tractate: that the churches owght to be like one to another, in ceremonies, pag. 142.

As the churches in the Apostles times, and after in the primitive church, 142.

As the children and ſeruantes of noble men, goe in one liuery, 142.

How this may be doen, 142, 143.

Althowgh the churches, owght not to fal owt abowt yt, nor men make a departure from the church, for want hereof: yet the church (to the end she may correct yt) owght to be tould of her faut, in this behalf, p. 143, 144.

The third chapter:

That the ſeruice book, after a ſort, mainteineth an vnpreaching miniſtery, 184.

Partly, throwgh the lenght of prayers, 184, 185.

But eſpecially, in contenting yt ſelf, with a Myniſter which can doe no more thē a childe of ten yeares ould, 185. Or els, the Bishop ys yet more gilty, which maketh ſuch Miniſters, withowt warrant, ether of god or man, ib.

The fourth chapter:

That the frute, that might be, is not receiued, p. 186,

Throwgh the change of the place, and geſtures of the miniſter, which hinder the vnderstanding of the people: renw the leuitical Priesthood: is vncomely: ād, according to M. Bucer, boeth abſurd and munkish page. 186, 187.

That the order hereof, is dangerously left in the Bishops diſcretion, 187.

The ſecond part,

Of this Tractate: of the particuler fautes, in our ceremonies.

The first part,

Of the firſt chapter thereof: is of abrogating the feaſtes of the Natiuitie, Eaſter and whitſonday, pa. 188.

For the ſuperſtition, crept into mēs myndes of them, eſpecially, when they are not neceſſary, pa. 185: the ſuperstition alſo, being not ſo wel remedied by preaching onelyonly, 189.

They reſtrain the benefites of Chriſt, vntounto the tyme, they are houlden in, pa. 190.

In appointing of holy dayes, regard muſt be had not onelyonly to the riche, which may, withowt their hinderance, abstein from labor: but vntounto the poorest, 192, 193.

The church may appoint ſtanding tymes, for the publik ſeruice of god, and, vponupon extraordinary cauſes, whole holy dayes, yet not therefore ordinarily command ſuche feaſtes, 191, 192.

As ordinarily, yt can not be ordeyned, that men should work the dayes, which god hath commanded to rest in: ſo ordinarily yt should not be forbidden, to labor in thoſe dayes, which god hath licenſed to work in, 193.

The elder church, left the feaſtes free, 189 198.

The ſecond part,

Of the first chapter, against Saintes dayes, pag. 194.

End of the text · Thomas Cartwright, A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 2 (1577)