A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift, Reply · Part 19

A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift · Reply · Part 19

p. 56To the next ſection in the. 46. page.

NOw you would proue that thys election of miniſters by one man was in the Apoſtles time. But you hauehave forgotten your ſelfe / which ſayde a little before / that this election by the church / was not only in the Apoſtles times / but alſo in the tyme of Cyprian: now you ſay otherwiſe. And if the election of the miniſtery by the church agree ſo wel with the time of perſecution / and when there is no chriſtian Magiſtrate / how commeth it to paſſe / that in thoſe dayes when perſecution was ſo hotte / and there were no ſuch Magiſtrates / that S. Paule would hauehave the election by one man / and not by the church. Beſydes that / if this be S. Paule hys commaundement / that the byſhop ſhould only chuſe the miniſter / why doe you make it an indifferent thing / and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times / for this is a flarte commaundement. Thus you ſee you throwe downe with one hand / as faſt as you builde with the other. But to anſwere directly to the place of the fifthe of the firſt to Timothe.

I ſaye firſt / that S. Paule wryteth to Timothe / and therefore inſtructeth hym what he ſhould do for his parte in the appoynting of the miniſter. If he had written to the whole Churche of Epheſus / he would lykewiſe hauehave inſtructed them how they ſhould hauehave behaued thē ſelues in that buſineſſe. If one do wryte vntounto hys frende / that hath intereſt in any election / to take heede that he chuſe none but ſuch as are meete / ſhall any man conclude therupon / that none hath to doe in that election / but he to whom that letter is writtē? Then I ſay further / that S. Paule attributeth that vntounto Timothe / that was common to moe with hym / becauſe he being the director and moderator of the election / is ſayde to doe that whiche many doe: which thing I hauehave proued by dyuers examples both out of the ſcripture / and otherwiſe before. And euen in this impoſition of handes / it is manifeſtly to be ſhewed. For that where as S. Paule ſayth in the 2. Epiſtle / 2. Tim. 1. 6.2 Tim 1:6that Timothe was ordayned by the putting on of hys hands vppon hym / in the firſt Epiſtle he ſayth / that he was ordayned by the putting on of the handes of 1. Tim. 4/12.1 Tim 4the elderſhip. So that that which he in one place taketh to him ſelfe alone / in the other he communicateth with moe. And that he dyd it not him ſelfe alone / it may appeare by thoſe wordes which folow (and communicate not with other mens ſinnes) as if he ſhould ſaye / if other will ordeyne inſuffycient miniſters / yet be not thou caryed away with their example. And further that his authoritie was equall with other elders of that church / and that he had no ſuperioritie aboue his fellowes / it may appeare / for that he ſayth lay thy hands raſhly of none / where if he had had authoritie ouer the reſt / he would rather hauehave ſayd / ſuffer none to lay p. 57his handes raſhly. Agayne / it is a fault in you / that you can not diſtinguiſhe or put difference betweene the election and impoſition of handes.

Laſt of all / I anſwere that although this might agree to Timothe alone / as in deede it can not / yet it followeth not that eueryevery Biſhop may do ſo. For Timothe was an Euangeliſt / which was aboue a Biſhop / as hereafter ſhall better appeare. And it is an euill argument to ſay the greater may do it / therfore the leſſe may do it. The ſuperiour / therfore the inferioure. If you were at any coſt with producing your witneſſes / you ſhould not be ſo vnwiſe to be ſo lauiſhe of them / as to cite Ambroſe / and Chriſoſtome / to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed. For who denyeth that S. Paule doth not geue warning to Timothe to be circumſpect? If you meane to vſe their teſtimonie to proue that he only made the elections / they ſaye neuer a word for you / if there be any thing / cite it. To the place of Titus / I anſwere as to that of Timothe / for there is nothing there / but agreeth alſo to thys place. And as for Ierome he hath nothing in that place / as he hath in no other / to proue that to the Biſhop only / doth belong the right of election of the miniſter.

I hauehave ſhewed you reaſons before / why it cā not be ſo taken of the ſole election of the Biſhop / the church being ſhutte out. If authoritie woulde doe any good in thys behalfe / as it ſeemeth it ought / ſeeing that all your proofe throughe out the whole booke / is in the authorities of men / (which Ariſtotle calleth atechnas peiſeis, vncunning proofes) I coulde ſende you to maiſter Calum / which teacheth / that it is not to be thought that S. Paule woulde permit to Titus to ordayne byſhoppes and miniſters by hys owne authoritie / when he hym ſelfe would not take ſo much vponupon hym / but ioyned hys with the voyces of the church. But he peraduenture ſauoureth not your taſt / and yet you woulde make men beleue ſometimes / that you make muche of hym if you can gette but one worde vnioynted / and racked in peeces from the reſt / to make good your part. If hee weyghe not with you / you hauehave maiſter Muſculus / whome you take to bee a Muſculus in his common places in his title of the election of miniſters.great patrone of youres in thys cauſe / which dothe with greater vehemencie affirme the ſame thing that mayſter Caluin ſayth / aſking whether any man can beleeue that Paiſle permitted in thys place to Titus / or in the place before alledged to Timothe / that they ſhoulde ordayne of theyr owne authoritie / and by them ſelues / when as Paule woulde not doe it but by the voyces and election of the churche.

In the ende you ſay it is the generall conſent of all the learned fathers / that it belongeth to the byſhop to chuſe the miniſter. Becauſe you acquaint my eares with ſuch bolde and vntrue affirmations / I can now the more paciently heare you thus vaunting your ſelfe / as though you had all the fathers by heart / and caryed them about with you / whereſoeuer you went / whereas / if a man woulde meaſure you by the ſkill in them which you hauehave ſhewed heere / he woulde hardly beleeue that you had redde the tenthe part of them.

Are all the learned fathers of that mynde? I thinke then you would hauehave bene better aduiſed then to hauehave ſette downe but one / when as you know a matter in controuerſie / will not be tryed but by two or three witneſſes / vnleſſe the Lord ſpeake hym ſelfe / and therefore you geue me occaſion to ſuſpect that becauſe you cite but one / you know of no more: now let vsus ſee what your one witneſſe will depoſe in thys matter.

And fyrſt of all you hauehave done more wiſely then ſimply / in that you hauehave altered Ieromes wordes. For where hee ſayeth / wherein doth a byſhoppe differ from an elder / but only in ordayning: you ſay a byſhop doth excell all other myniſters. &c. I report me heere vntounto your conſcience / whether you dyd not of purpoſe chaunge Ieromes hys ſentēce / becauſe you wold not let y^e reader vnderſtand what oddes is betweene S. Ieromes biſhops in his dayes / & betwene our p. 58Lord Biſhoppes. For then the byſhop had nothing aboue an elder or other miniſter / but only the ordayning of the miniſter. Now he hath a thouſande pariſhes / where the miniſter hath but one. For the matters alſo of the ſubſtaunce of the miniſterie / the biſhop now excommunicateth / which the miniſter can not / abſolueth or receyueth into the church / which the miniſter can not. Beſides diuers other things which are meere ciuill which the byſhop doth / and which neither byſhop nor other miniſter ought to doe. I ſay I reporte me to your conſcience / whether you altered Ieromes wordes to thys ende / that you would keepe thys from the knowledge of your reader or no. For anſwere to the place / it is an euill argument to ſaye the byſhop had the ordayning of the miniſter. Ergo he had the election of hym / the contrary rather is a good argument / the byſhop had the ordayning of the miniſter / therefore he had not the election of hym. For ordination and election are dyuers members of one whole / which is the placing of the paſtor in hys church / and one member can not be verified of an other / as you can not ſay your foote is your hand. I will not deny / but that ſometimes theſe wordes maye bee founde confounded in Eccleſiaſticall wryters / but I will ſhewe you alſo / that they are diſtinguiſhed / and that the election pertayneth to the people / and ordayning vntounto the Byſhop.

VponUpon the ſixte of the Actes the gloſe hath / that that which was done there of the xij. Apoſtles / in willing the brethren to loke out fitte men / was done to geue vsus example / & muſte be obſerued in thoſe that are ordayned. For ſayth the gloſe / the people muſt chuſe / and the Byſhoppe muſt ordayne. And that S. Ierome muſt be ſo vnderſtanded / it appeareth not only that it hath beene ſo expounded: but alſo it may be caſely proued / for that S. Ieromes ſentence and iudgement appeareth in other places / that he woulde hauehave nothing heere done with out the people / as in his Epiſtle / ad Ruſticum monachum: he willeth that the people ſhoulde hauehave power and authoritie to chuſe their clarkes and their miniſters / and in hys Epiſtle to Neopotian / of the lyfe of the clarkes / he hath thys diſtinction manifeſtly: They runne / ſayth he / vntounto the Biſhoppes ſuffragans certen times of the yeare / and bringing ſome ſumme of money / they are annoynted / and ordayned / being choſen of none / and afterwarde / the Biſhoppe without any lawfull election / is choſen in hugger mugger / of the Canons or Prebendaries only / without the knowledge of the people. And ſo you ſee / that although y^• S. Ierome ſayeth / that the Byſhop had the ordayning of the miniſters / yet he had not the election / for the ordayning was nothing elſe but an approuing of the election / by putting on of handes / and conſequently / hauing made your vaunt that all the learned fathers were of thys iudgement / that the Biſhop ſhould elect the miniſter / you ſhew not ſo much as one.

Now will I ſhewe you the cleane contrary of that you ſaye / not that I gladlye trauaile thys wayes / for if you had not conſtrayned me / you ſhoulde not hauehave hearde one voyce thys way. And woulde to God that you woulde be content / eſpecially when you meete with thoſe that will be tryed by the ſcriptures / to ſeeke no farther ſtrengthe then they geue you. But I am lothe you ſhoulde oppreſſe the truthe / and make all men afrayde of it / by making them beleeue / that it is ſo deſolate and forſaken of her frendes / as you pretende. You confeſſe S. Cyprian is agaynſte you herein / and he was a learned father / and a Martyr alſo / whych dyd not only vſe thys forme of election / but alſo taught it to be neceſſary / and commaunded / and therefore me thincketh you ſhoulde not hauehave ſayde all the learned fathers without exception. You ſee alſo S. Ierome is of an other iudgement. S. Auguſtine alſo / when hee ſpeaketh how hee appoynted Eradius to ſucceede hym / ſheweth / howe it was the approued right and cuſtome / that the whole church ſhoulde eyther chuſe / or conſent of their Biſhoppe. And * Ambroſe ſayeth / that that is truely and certaynely a diuine election to the office p. 59Epiſt. 81.of a byſhop / which is made of the whole church. Eregorius Nazianzene in the Oration which he had at the death of hys father / hath diuers things which proue that the election of the miniſter pertayned to the Churche / and confuteth thoſe thinges which ſhould ſeeme to hinder it. Theſe were learned fathers / and yet thought not that the election of the paſtor or byſhop / pertayned to one man alone but that the church had alſo hir intereſt / therefore you ſee all the learned fathers are not of that mynde / you ſay they are.

And that thys election continued in the churche / vntill within a three hundred yeares / at what time there was more then Egyptiacall / and palpable darckneſſe ouer the face of the whole earth / it may appeare in a Treatiſe of Flaccus Illir…cus / whiche he calleth an addition vntounto hys booke that he entituleth the Catalogue of the witneſſes of truthe / of whome I confeſſe my ſelfe to hauehave bene muche holpen in thys matter of the choyſe of the church touching the miniſters: eſpecially in the Emperoures Edictes which are before cited. For lacking opportunities diuers wayes / I was contented ſomewhat to vſe the collection to my commoditie / for the more ſpeedie furtheraunce / and better proceeding in other matters / which I will leaue of / becauſe they may be there red of thoſe that be learned / whome I will alſo referre to the ſixe and ſeuen bookes of Euſebius / wher both the formes of the electiōs in thoſe tymes are deſcribed / & wher / beſides that the cuſtomes of the peoples choiſe is ſet forth / there are examples of the election of the people and cleargie / which were confirmed by the chriſtian Magiſtrate / namely in the Byſhop of Conſtantinople. And theſe may ſuffice for the other that hauehave not that commoditie of bookes / nor habilitie / nor ſkill to reade them / being in a ſtraunge tongue / to knowe / that beſides the inſtitution of God in his worde / thys manner of election dyd continue ſo long / as there was any light of the knowledge of God / in the churche of God. I will adde only one place / which if it be more bitter then the reſt / and cutte the quicke more neare / you ſhall not bee angry with me / but firſt with thoſe that were the authors of it / and then wyth him that wrote it.

Euſebius ſpeaking of Origine / which was admitted not of one Biſhop / 6. Lib. cap. 20.but of many Byſhoppes to teache / ſheweth how the Byſhoppes were reprehended by the Byſhoppe of Alexandria called Demetrius / becauſe they had admitted him without the election of the preſbyterie of the churche / which were the cheefe in the election in eueryevery church / and vntounto the which the churches did committe the gouernment of them ſelues in eueryevery ſeuerall towne and Citie / & ſayth / that it hath not beene hearde that laikous ſhoulde homilein paronton ton epiſcopon: which is / that the lay men ſhould teach when the Byſhoppes were preſent / whereby it is euident / that he counted hym a lay man / which was only admitted by the Byſhops / although they were many / not being firſt elected by the preſbyterie of that church wherof he was the teacher.

Seing then that the ſcripture doth teache thys order / that there ſhoulde be no miniſter thruſt vppon the churche / but by the conſent thereof / and reaſon perſwadeth that wayes / and the vſe of the churche hath beene ſo from time to time / both in peace and in time of perſecution / bothe vnderunder tyrantes and godly Princes / it can not be without the highe diſpleaſure of almightie God / the great hurte and ſore oppreſſion of the churche / that one man ſhoulde take thys vntounto hym / which pertayneth to ſo many / or one miniſter / which pertayneth to more then one / eſpecially / where the aduiſe of learned miniſters may concurre with the peoples election or conſent.

Now if any man will riſe vp and ſaye / that this doctryne bringeth in diſorder / and by thys meanes children / and boyes / and wemen ſhoulde hauehave their voyces / whiche is vnſeemely / all men vnderſtand that where the election is moſt p. 60freeſt and moſt generall / yet only they hauehave to doe / which are heades of families / and that thys is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred / which is vnworthy to be anſwered / & requireth rather a Cenſor / then a Diſputer to ſuppreſſe it.