A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift, Reply · Part 48
VntoUnto maſter Doctors cenſures vponupon the additions / detractions / and alterations of bothe the partes of the admonition.
BEſydes that oftentimes M. Doctor dothe accounte the expoſitions and explanations / corrections / he leaueth vsus ſomewhat the les hope / that he wil correct hys errors / for that he purſueth the authors of the admonition ſo harde / correcting their very ſmal and few ſlips which they hauehave made / calling thys ſingulare modeſtye / and commendable humility amongſte other reproches / dalying and inconſtancye / when it is oure profeſſion eueryevery day to learne better thyngs. For vntounto what ende ſhould we lyue / if time / if experience / if reading / if muſing / if conference ſhould teache vsus nothyng? And therefore / when thyngs are Printed againe / it is good and prayſe worthy / to polliſh thoſe things whych are ſome▪ what rude / to mitigate thoſe things whych are to ſharpe / to make plaine / and to geue lighte to thoſe things whych ſeeme darker / and to correcte that whych is a miſſe. I thinke M. Doctor ſhoulde not be ignorante / that wiſe men hauehave their deuteras phrontidas, their ſeconde counſels / and thoſe alſo wyſer and better then their firſt / as that ſentence doth declare. I will therfore ſay no more heereof / but admoniſhe M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly thoſe whych correcte them ſelues / ſeing that the beſt defence to hys booke muſt be / not a correction here and there / but a cleane blotting and ſtriking out / not an amending / but a new making almoſte of hys whole booke. Other matter in hys cenſures / he hath almoſt none at all worthe the anſwearing / ſauing that he hathe a place or two whych touch the matters before entreated of. For whereas he accuſeth the authors of the admonition in the firſt leafe / as though they ſhould condemne Doctors and bachellers of diuinitie / and ſo bryng in confuſion of degrees / he vponupon the. 5. leafe / confeſſeth that they allowe of a Doctor. Althoughe he that taketh away degrees of Doctor or Bachelor of Diuinitie / dothe not bryng in confuſion / nor taketh not away all degrees of ſchooles / eſpecially ſeeing they are nowe made bare names wythout any offices / and oftentimes they are admitted to theſe degrees / whych neyther can / nor will teache.
VntoUnto the ſeconde leafe of the addition of the ſecond parte of the admonition / maſter D. ſaith / that becauſe the third to Titus maketh not againſt reading / therfore it maketh not againſt reading miniſters / that is / miniſters that can doe nothyng but reade.
And wheras he would picke out a contradiction in the words of the admonition / becauſe they ſay bare reading / is but bare feading / the diſcorde is in hys cares / not in their wordes. For when they ſayde it was no feading / they meant ſuche feeding as could ſaue them / and ſo in calling it bare feading / they note that there is not enough in that / to keepe them from famiſhment. And in deede / vnles the Lord worke miraculouſly and extraordinarily (whych is not to beloked for of vsus) the bare reading of the ſcriptures wythout the preachyng / can not delyuer ſo much as one poore ſheepe from deſtruction / and from the wolfe. And if ſome hauehave ben conuerted wonderfully / yet M. doctor ſhould remember that potamos ouc aei axinas pherei, that is. The water doth not alway beare iron.
And vponupon the thirde leafe / where he geueth inſtance in the Apocalypſe of the worde (prieſt) to be taken otherwyſe / then for the Leuiticall prieſthode / and prieſthode of our ſauioure Chriſte. Maiſter D. can not be ignorant / that the admonition ſpeaketh of thoſe which be prieſts in deede / & properly / and not by thoſe whych are prieſts by a Metaphore and borowed ſpeache. And whereas he deſyreth to learne where the word (prieſt) is taken in euill parte in all the new Teſtament. Although all men ſee how he aſketh thys queſtion of no minde to learne: yet if he will learne (as he ſayeth) he ſhall finde that in the actes of the apoſtles / it is taken diuers tunes in euill parte. For ſeeing that the office and function of ron iereon, that is / of prieſts / was (after our ſauyor Chriſtes aſcencion) naught and vngodly: The name wherby they were called / whych dyd exerciſe that vngodly function / can not be otherwyſe taken / then in the euill parte.
M. Doctor vponupon the. 5. leafe / citeth M. Caluins authority / to proue that the laying on of the handes vponupon yong children / and the Confirmation whych is heere vſed / is good. In the whych place / although he allow of a kinde of Confirmation / yet he doth not commende that whych we hauehave. For he dothe plainly reproue Ierom / for ſaying that it came from the apoſtles / whych notwythſtanding the Confirmation wyth vsus dothe affirme. Beſydes that / there are other abuſes whych I hauehave noted there / whych M. Caluin doth not by any word allow. He alloweth in deede of a putting on of handes of the children / when they come oute of their childehode / or begin to be yong men / but as well as he doth allow of it / he was one of thoſe whych did thruſte it oute of the churche / where he was paſtor. And ſo he alloweth of it / that he bryngeth (in the ſixt ſection of the ſame chapter) a ſtrong reaſon to abolyſhe it. Where he aſketh / what the impoſition of handes ſhould do now / ſeeing that the geuing of the giftes of the holy ghoſt by that ceremony is ceaſed. Therfore / ſeeing that we hauehave M. Caluins reaſon againſt thys impoſition of hands / hys name ought not to be preiudiciall vntounto vsus: eſpecially / ſeing that we hauehave experience of great inconuenyences whych come by it / whych M. Caluin coulde not hauehave / that thyng being not in vſe in that church where he lyued. Whych inconuenience in thyngs whych are not neceſſary / oughte to be a iuſt cauſe of abolyſhing of them. And thys is not my iudgement only / but the iudgement of the churches of Heluetia / Berne / Tigurine / Geneua / Scotlande / and diuers others / as appeareth in the. 19. chapter of their confeſſion.
VponUpon the. 6. leafe / M. Doctor ſayth that the Pope taketh the ſword from Princes / but our byſhops take it at their hands / and geuen of them: as thoughe chalenge were not made agaynſt the Pope / for vſing the materiall ſworde / and not only for vſing it againſt the wil of ye princes. For by that reaſon / if Prynces would put their ſwordes in hys hand / as ſometymes they hauehave done / he myghte lawfully vſe them. And wheras he ſayeth / that our church men meddle not with all ciuill cauſes / or exerciſe all ciuill iuriſdiction / but ſuche as helpeth to diſcipline / and the good gouernment of the church / and the ſtate: What ſayth he / that is not truely ſayd of any ciuill magiſtrate in the realme? for no one dothe meddle in all cauſes. And further / I woulde gladly knowe what ciuill iuriſdiction is in thys realme / whych helpeth not vntounto the good gouernment of thys church / and ſtate. For if they meddle wyth all that / there is none whych they hauehave not to do with.
VponUpon the. 7. leafe / he ſayth / that he knoweth not the meaning of the admonition / when it proueth that the gouernment of the church is ſpiritual / their meaning is plaine enoughe / and I hauehave declared it more at large to be / not only that our ſauyor Chriſt ruleth by hys ſpirite in the hearts of hys elect (beſides whych gouernment M. doctor ſeemeth to know none.) But that there is alſo ſpiritual gouernmēt / whych is in the whole church viſible / & to be ſene / exerciſed by thoſe / whome God hath appoynted in hys ſtead / called ſpirituall / becauſe where as the ciuill gouernment vſeth the ſword / thys vſeth the word: and where the ciuill gouernor addreſſeth hymſelfe vntounto the bodye / and hathe that for ſpeciall matter to worke on / the ſpirituall gouernors be occupied in reforming the minde / and ſubduing that wyth thoſe puniſhments and corrections / whych God hath appoynted for that purpoſe. Whych ſignification of ſpirituall gouernment / M. Caluine doth ſpeake of in bothe the places alledged by M. doctor: and eſpecially in the later / vntounto whom the admonition ſent the reader / not therby to giuegive more waight vntounto the truth / but that he myght hauehave there a plainer / and fuller vnderſtanding of that whych it meant / and could not for that breuity and ſhortnes whych it foloweth throughout / vtter at large. Wherby it is manifeſt / that the admonition is ſo farre from ſhutting out eyther ciuill gouernment / or externall gouernment in the church / that it teacheth of an externall gouernment whych M. doctor ſemeth not to hauehave heard of / allbeit there be nothing eyther more common in the ſcryptures / or Eccleſiaſticall wryters.
VponUpon the. 8. leafe / M. doctor ſayth he ſeeth nothyng / howe the place of the Epheſians maketh any thing againſt this maner of ſpeach of the biſhop (receiue the holy ghoſt) and yet it maketh thus much / that for as much as the apoſtles did vſe to pray that the grace of God might be geuen vntounto men / the byſhops ſhoulde not vſe this manner of ſpeache / which containeth the forme of a cōmaundement.
VponUpon the. 9. leafe he hath ſondry greeuous accuſations and charges of diſorder / diſobedience / and contempt againſt thoſe whych refuſe the apparel / and laboureth to perſuade that they are great and waighty matters. But hys profes were ſpent before.
As for anſweare to the articles collected out of the admonition / it is made in the Replie vntounto M. Doctors boke / where I hauehave ſhewed howe the admonition is miſconſtrued / and taken otherwiſe / then either it meaneth or ſpeaketh / whervnto I will referre the reader.
And albeit I hauehave ſhewed how vntrue it is / that the admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England / yet I can not pas by the ſecrete philoſophy whereby M. doctor would proue / that the authors of the admonition affirme it. For ſayth he by ye rule of Philoſophie. Quod vix fit, non fit, that which is ſkarce done / is not done. I ſay this is ſecrete / for it was neuer taughte / neither in Academia, nor in Stoa, nor Lyceo. I hauehave red Quod fere fit, non fit, that whych is almoſt done / is not done. But I neuer remembre any ſuch rule / as M. Doctor ſpeaketh of.
And beſides that in our tonge / thoſe thyngs whych … ſayde to be ſkarce / are notwythſtanding oftentimes ſuppoſed to be: As when a …an ſaith that there is ſkarce a man aliue. &c. the ſcripture alſo vſeth that phraſe of ſpeache / of thyngs whych are / as when it ſayth / the iuſt man ſhal ſkarce be ſaued / it doth not meane 1. Pet. 4. 18.that iuſt men ſhall not be ſaued. The reſt of that I hauehave anſweared.
And wheras he ſayth that it is all one / to ſay that the election of the miniſter muſt be made by the church / and to ſay / it muſt be made by the people: It is a great ouerſyghte to make the parte / and whole all one / ſeeing the people be but one parte of the churche / and the miniſter and the other gouernoures are / allbeit not the greateſt / yet the principalleſt part. I graunt that ſometimes a part is taken for the whole / and ſo we do call ſometimes the gouernors of the churche the churche / and ſometimes the people. But where the queſtion is of the proprietye of theſe ſpeaches (the churche and the people) there all men that hauehave any iudgement / can eaſely put a difference. The reſt of thoſe articles are anſweared in the diſcourſe of the booke. Beſydes that / the faultes whych are found wyth the vntrue gathering of them / are not taken away by M. Doctor / but only in confident and bolde aſſeuerations. And if I ſhould ſay any thyng / I ſhould but repeate their wordes.
In the viewe of the ſecond admonition / M. Doctor dothe as it ſeemeth of purpoſe / cull out thoſe thyngs whych he hath ſpoken on before / and in repeatyng of them / referreth hys reader vntounto hys boke. Diuers other matters there are / of great weight / whych he ſpeaketh not of / if he doe approue them / it had bene well he had ſignified hys liking: if he do not / that he had confuted them. And if he trauailed ſo heauely of brynging forth of thys booke / that it was as heauy a burden vntounto him / as Salomon ſayth a fond word is vntounto an vnwiſe man: he might hauehave taken day to anſwere it. Nowe by this ſlender anſwearing of it / or rather not anſwearing at all / but only aſking howe thys and that is proued / (where as being proued / it is vnreproued of hym) he doth his cauſe more harme / then he is aware of. For vnles hys proufes be ioyned wyth his expulſions / impriſonments / and with all that racket whych he maketh in Cambridge to the vttermoſt of that his authority will ſtretch vntounto / he may be well aſſured / that their driuing out / will draw in the truth / and their impriſonment / will ſet the truth at greater libertye / and therby proue it ſelfe to be neither Papiſtry / nor Anabaptiſtry / Donatiſtry / Cathariſme / nor any other hereſy whych are by due correction repreſſed. But as for the truthe of God / the more it is laden / the ſtraighter it ſtandeth / and ye more it is kept vnderunder / the more it enforceth it ſelfe to riſe / and will vndoubtedly gette vp / howe great ſo euer the ſtone be / whych is layd vponupon it. And albeit he had no leaſure to anſwere the matters whych required his anſwere / yet he carpeth at by matters / and aſketh who are meant by the politicke Macheuils.
What if they meane maſter doctor / and ſuche other / whych vnderunder the pretence of pollicy / would ouerthrowe the churche / and that by thoſe thyngs whych hauehave ſkarce a ſhewe of pollicy / and in deede ouerturne the pollicy and gouernmēt of the Lord. And I pray you tell me M. doctor who be thoſe ſuperyors / whych do contemne / hate / diſcourage / and frumpe thoſe whych execute the lawes of the realme / of the which you ſpeake in the. 88. page. And where you adde by and by / that they enuy all men of great authority / witte / and pollicy / I hauehave anſweared thys ſpeache before. And truely I thincke there is not in Meſhecke / ſo ſlaunderous Pſal. 120. 4. 5a tonge to be found as thys is / nor the Iuniper coales are not comparable wyth it. After he accuſeth the admonition / as if it condemned ſcholes and vniuerſities wyth all manner degrees / when it doth but inueigh againſt degrees giuen of cuſtome / rather then of ryghte / rather by money / then by merite of learning / and when titles of doctorſhyp be geuen to thoſe whych hauehave not the offyce of a Doctor / and oftentimes to thoſe which can not do the office if they had it / and when men do ſeeke vaine glory in them / and ſuche lyke.
For the repetition of Gloria patri. &c. I hauehave ſpoken ſufficiently before: but what ſpirite is it / that calleth this tranſlation of the word battologefete, (vſe not vaine repetitions) a wycked wreſting of S. Mathewes place in hys .vj. chapter. What raſor is thys / that cutteth ſo ſharpe? knoweth he againſt whome / and againſt the excellent learning / and ſinguler piety of howe many he ſpeaketh? For thys is the tranſlation of thoſe learned / and godlye men / whych tranſlated the Bible / whych is commōly called the Geneua Bible: and is thys a wycked wreſting? Admit it were not tranſlated exactly / to the word of the Euangeliſt: is it therfore a wreſting / and a wicked wreſting? What (I wil not ſay wicked / but) falſe concluſion / or doctrine can be grounded of this tranſlation? And they that tranſlate it thus / hauehave not only the authority of ye Lexicons to confirme their trā ſlation / whych ſhew that thys word was taken vp / in reproche of a folyſh Pocte called Battus, whych vſed to repeat one thing many times: but they hauehave alſo the circumſtance of the place to warrant it. For the reaſon whych our ſauior Chriſt vſeth / to draw men from this fault leadeth to thys tranſlation / and can not ſtand with that ſenſe / which M. doctor ſetteth downe. For how hāg theſe togither: you ſhall not babble many wordes wythout faithe. &c. becauſe your heauenly father knoweth / what you hauehave nede of / before you aſke? It is vnlike firſt / that our ſauyor Chriſt wold ſpeake thus (babble not many words wtout fayth. &c.) when as rather he would hauehave forbidden them to ſpeake any one word without fayth. &c. For if he ſhould ſpeake thus / he ſhuld ſeeme to hauehave alowed a prayer without fayth / ſo that it were not cōceiued in many words. And againe / if (as M. doctor ſayth) this had bene the propoſition / whych our ſauyor Chriſt diſſwaded from / y• they ſhould not babble many words wythout faith. &c. he would neuer hauehave added thys reaſon / (for your heauenly father knoweth. &c.) for neyther is he father vntounto any ſuch: And he woulde rather hauehave ſayd as S. Iames ſayeth / that they Chap. 1. 7.ſhould be ſure to receiue nothyng / becauſe they aſke not in faythe. Nowe as thys reaſon can not ſtand wyth M. Doctors interpretation: ſo doth it wel agree with the tranſlation of the Geneua Bible. For what could be more fitly ſayd to driue the diſciples from thys vain repetition / then to ſay / that the heauenly father knoweth. &c. and that it is not wyth the Lord / as it is wyth men / that muſte hauehave a thyng oftentimes ſpoken / or euer they can vnderſtand it? Furthermore / what a reaſon is thys: VVe muſt repeat the Lordes prayer oftentimes / therfore we muſt repeate it oftentimes in halfe an houre / and one in the necke of an other? And if ſ. Paules place to the Theſſalonians / (pray continually) be referred vntounto the ſaying of the Lordes prayer (as M. doctor would beare vsus in hande) then it is not lawfull for vsus to vſe any other words / then thoſe whych our ſauyor Chriſt vſed. But I could neuer yet learne / that thoſe wordes binde vsus of neceſſity / any more vntounto the repetition of the Lordes prayer word for word / then vntounto the repetition of any other godly prayer in the ſcripture. And I would be lothe to ſaye that it were ſimply neceſſary / to vſe that iuſt nombre of wordes / and neyther more / nor les at any time / much les oftentimes in ſo ſmall a ſpace. For our ſauyor Chriſte doth not there geue a preſcript forme of prayer / whervnto he bindeth vsus: but geueth vsus a rule and ſquire to frame all our prayers by / as I hauehave before declared. I knowe it is neceſſary to pray / and to pray often. I knowe alſo that in ſo fewe words it is impoſſible for any man to frame ſo pithy a prayer: And I confes that the churche doth well in concluding theyr prayers wyth the Lordes prayer: but I ſtande vponupon thys / that there is no neceſſitye layde vponupon vsus / to vſe theſe verye wordes and no more / and eſpecially that the place of S. Paule to the Theſſalonians dothe leaſt of all proue it. As for M. Doctors outcryes / he hathe ſo often worn our eares wyth them / and that wythout cauſe / that I thinke by this time / no man regardeth them.