A Brief Apology Against Sutcliffes Slanderous Accusations, Answer 1 – Accusation 8

A Brief Apology Against Sutcliffes Slanderous Accusations · Answer 1 – Accusation 8

T'hanſwere of Thomas Cartwright.

Hacket was a man whom, to my knowledge, I neuer ſaw: ſo was Arthington, vntill he was freed of his priſon he endured for his miſdemeanor: with Copinger I had acquaintance vponupon occaſion of M^r Ambroſe Copinger, chief officer to the right Honorable, th'Earle of Warwike; For, cōming to his houſe neceſſarily for the ſetling of th'eſtate of th'Hoſpital of the right Honorable th'Earle of Leicester: there I mette with this Copinger ſundry times ſome three or foure yeares before his lewed practiſe brake foorth: with the former two I had neuer conference either by Letter or otherwiſe by meſſage ſent from them to me, or from me to them. Betweene Copinger and me touching this matter I am charged with, this onelyonly paſſed which followeth: Whileſt I was in priſon in the Fleere, M^r Rafe Hockenhull propounded vntounto me, as things he deſired to be reſolued of in the behaulf of one of his acquaintance, 1whether there were anie Apoſtles, Prophetes and Euangeliſtes in theſe daies, I anſwered that thoſe callings ceaſed many hundred yeares agoe, and as no Apoſtles were euer hereafter to be looked for, ſo th'other two were not to be expected vnleſſe God in th'vtter waſte and deſolation of the Church did extraordinarily raiſe them vp for th'erection of a church out of the duſt: And therefore that there was no vſe of ſuch men amongſt vsus. To a ſecond queſtion, 2how and by what markes ſuch a one as thought him ſelf one of theſe, might in deed know whether he were ſo or not, I anſwered that this doubting of the matter, was an evident and an invincible argument that he was none: For that ſuch as hauehave a calling immediatly from God, are not to aſke counſell of fleaſh and bloud; as thoſe which hauehave th'vnboubted teſtimony of Gods ſpirit vntounto their ſpirites that they are called of him. Wherevpon M^r Hockenhull telling me that it was Copinger which had entred into ſuch conceite of him ſelfe: I deſired him to deale with him for diſwading him from ſuch frantike opinions, which he told me he did accordingly. And afterwardes, ſome while before his lewed practiſe brake foorth, he admoniſhed ſome of his kindred before Copinger him ſelfe, that if he belonged to him, he that day before the morrow would make him faſt either in Bridwell or Bedlem. After ſome ſpace of the demaund of theſe queſtions, he ſent by M^r Hockenhull to entreate that he might come to me into the Fleete: For that if he might ſo doe, he did not doubt but he would ſhew me ſuch evident tokens of an extraordinarie callinge, as I ſhould hauehave no power to deny it, and that he would for further ſecuritie in this matter, come wayting vponupon M^r Hockenhull in a blewe coate. To whom I returned this anſwere, that if he came to me, I would not once ſo much as ſpeake with him: For that his diſeaſe was of that kinde as needed ſome other remedie then diſputation. And if he deſired to be reſolued of the trueth in that matter, there were other both for their learning & libertie more fitte to deale with him then I was. Not long after this, the ſame M^r Hockenhull tolde me that becauſe Copinger might not come vntounto me, he had written me a letter, which he had ſent by him, to whom I ſaied, I would receiue none from him, and ſo returned his letter without ſo much as once taking it into my hand or looking vponupon the ſuperſcription: Whereby may appeare how vntrue it is that I and Copinger had mutuall conference by word and letters, to whom (in my knowledge) I neuer wrote in my life: aſſured I am, neuer ſince he entred into this wretched practiſe. After this I heard of M^r Hockenhull, that Copinger would informe her Maieſtie of certeine horrible treaſons committed by perſonages of high calling, both in Church and common wealth: which as I alwaies eſteemed vaine, knowing the broken witte of the man, ſo, when by report I vnderſtoode the particulers thereof (which argued one bereaued of common ſenſe) I deſired old M^r Michil that if Copinger came to the right Honorable my very good Ladie the Counteſſe of Warwicke for her mediation vntounto her excellent Maieſtie for ſuch matters as he would deliuer: He would ſignifie that, although I knew her wiſedome otherwiſe able eaſelie without anie writing to ſound his folly, yet that it would pleaſe her to take this notice of me (which otherwiſe ſhe might be ignoraunt of) that he was ouertaken with ſtraunge conceites of ſome extraordinarie calling and giftes he was fartheſt from. Againe this whole matter of Hackets Conſpiracie, being by commiſſion to certeine of her Maieſties moſt honorable Counſel and other wiſe and graue men commended to be examined: I leaue it to be conſidered whether M^r D. Sutcliffe bee ſo quicke ſighted as by him ſelfe and his Inquiſitours, hauing (for anie thing I can learne) but the ſame groundes her Maieſties Commiſſioners had, to finde out that which men of ſo great wiſedome and circumſpection, with ſo great meanes as they had of commaundement ouer all that might bring anie light vntounto that matter, could not finde out: And whether this dealing of his bee not ſome charge of want in them either of wiſedome in not finding it out, or of fidelitie in not once calling me to th'anſwere of it. Moreouer, Arthington being compacte in this conſpiracie with Hacket and Copinger, if there were anie hande of mine in that wretched practiſe, in all likelihoode Arthington muſt needes be priuie vntounto it: he is a man aliue let him be examined, and a man alſo whom I neuer ſpake too, nor cauſed to be ſpoken with in my life. His reaſons to induce his reader to thinke his accuſations to be true are (ſo farre as I remember) theſe: The firſt is touching our mutuall conference by letters, which is alreadie aunſwered: Another, my concurrance wtih Copinger in faſting. I confeſſe that, as there was iuſt cauſe of humbling my ſelf in faſting, in feeling the diſpleaſure of her excellent Maieſtie and others in great authoritie vnderunder her, ſo did I ſometimes beſtowe my ſelfe in that exerciſe. But that I did it the ſame day that Copinger and his complices, or at the leaſt with anie notice either giuen to him of my faſting, or receiued from him of his faſting, I vtterly denie as a thing moſt vntrue. A third reaſon is, that Hacket and his fellowes commended me at the croſſe in Cheape aboue the writers of our age: I acknowledge their great follie in that commendation or madneſſe rather, who am ſcarce woorthie to beare the bookes after many that hauehave liued, and yet doo liue in this age, yea & in this Church of our lande. But M^r D. Sut. report herein is not vpright, for although I was not preſent, yet I heard of diuers (and therein referre my ſelfe to the remembrance of thoſe that were ſtanders by) that their exceſſiue praiſe was of Thomas Cortwright, that had bene ſometimes when he firſt wrote in the cauſe of the Diſcipline of the Church, but not of him as he now was, for that (as was ſaied) he was faine away from his former louelove. Laſtly, that M^r Cartwright (ſaieth he) was a medler in thoſe matters and well vnderſtood them, it appeareth by a letter of Io. Bowmans (ſeruant in Oundle) to Wigginton: I deſire you (ſaieth he) to ſend me the copye of a writing which you had from M^r Cartwright vponupon the Court matters, when goodman Hacket was with you the first time. M^r Wigginton, I am aſſured, neuer receiued from me any writing during the time of my impriſonment or afterwardes, or at any time of my life, to my beſt remembrance, whereof let M^r Wigginton that liueth be examined. But if he had receiued a writing of the court matters in the ſtarre Chamber, how thereof it can be cōcluded that I was a medler in this matter, let all men iudge, for my part I vnderſtand no ſequell of it, vponupon all which both witneſſes and reaſons I leaue it to be iudged, how vntrue it is that M^r D. Sutcliffe dooth charge me with touching the matter of Hacket and Copinger, &c. both in wordes, writing and conſent, which neuer ſpake with them of it in my life, neuer wrote vntounto them, nor receiued writing or meſſage frō them further then I my ſelf hauehave confeſſed: whereof let it alſo be further iudged whether I was conſenting to that wretched practiſe.

M^r D. Sutcliffes accuſation fol. 13. p. 1.

Yea and Thomas Cartwright (they ſay) dooth woorke extraordinary miracles: And fol. 58. p. 2. A legend of M^r Cartwright his miracles, which paſſeth from hand to hand and is much esteemed amongst the brethrē is promiſed to come forth.

Th'anſwere of Tho. Cartwright.

Being (as I feele my ſelf) ſhort of th'ordinary works of my calling both in generall duties of chriſtianitie, and in the particuler way of the gouernement of mine owne familie: woe ſhould be vntounto me if I ſhould vainly boaſt of miraculous works, which my ſelf hauehave eſpecially written againſt, in condemning extraordinary callings whereof miracles are the ſeales: yet M^r D. Sutcliffe ſeemeth to inſinuate thus much (I ſay inſinuate) for that the brethren he brandeth to hauehave them in eſtimation (I doubt not) he meaneth to be men ſo fauouring me as they would bee loth to doo it if they thought it would not ſtande with my good liking. Now let the towne wherein I dwell be examined, whether any voice tēding herevnto did euer come from me. And, as I thinke, none can be produced that will glory in this follie: ſo my deſire is, that when this Legend ſhall come forth, there may be for the credite of him that ſetteth it out, the names of the reporters, & likewiſe of the brethrē layed downe that are guiltie of the dotage he ſpeaketh of, that thereby they may be cleared, or otherwiſe paſſe cōdemnation of the follie he chargeth them with.

M^r D. Sutcliffes accuſation, fol. 45. p. 2.

Thomas Cartwright examined in the ſtarre Chamber vponupon certeyne poyntes of her Maiesties Supremacie, refuſed to anſwere, and pleaded that he was not bound.

Thomas Cartwrightes anſwere.

I refuſed it as eſteeming it impertinent vntounto that cauſe, not otherwiſe, vntounto which afterward, vponupon commandement I gaue anſwere in writing vntounto her Maieſties moſt honorable Counſell. And to her Maieſties ſupremacie I hauehave bene ſworne (at the leaſt) fiue or ſixe times, and if there be doubt of any change of my iudgement, I am ready to take th'oth againe.

M^r D. Sutcliffes accuſation.

M. Cartwright highly commendeth Fenners booke, which giueth authoritie to ſuperior perſons to restraine their Soueraigne, as th'Ephori in Sparta.

Thomas Cartwrightes anſwere.

I take it M^r Fenner giueth no ſuch authoritie, but only where the lawes of the lande doo eſtabliſh ſuch an authoritie as the Ephori in Lacedaemonia had. And if M^r Fenner did, yet how doth my Epiſtle commendatorie ſet before his booke make me of his iudgement, as if he that cōmendeth a book iuſtifieth what ſoeuer is in the booke, or as if, notwithſtanding M^r Fenners ſingular learning (which for his age many, I doubt not, both at home and abroade doo eſteeme) I might not or doo not differ from him in ſome things conteined in his booke: beſides he him ſelfe confeſſing, that by oth in the ſtarre Chamber I hauehave diſavowed th'alowance of any ſuch opinion which he fathereth of M^r Fenner, let it be conſidered with what minde he ſo often rubbeth vppon this point. And both for this and the former charge, I leaue it to bee conſidered with what chriſtian modeſtie M^r Sutcliffe may now the ſecond and the third time (and that in print) mooue queſtion of thoſe thinges to our diſcredite, which her Maieſties moſt honorable Counſell was pleaſed, ſhould be no further proceeded in, and that he is not contented with that impriſonment we endured, which their Honors are ſatisfied with. Laſtly, my iudgement in ſundry matters of the Diſcipline excepted, wherein differing from ſundry learned men in our Church, I hauehave the conſent of many worthie Churches and godly learned both of this and other ages, I would bee aſhamed for that ſingular mercy God hath ſhewed me by her Maieſties moſt gratious gouuernment to come behinde M^r Sutcliffe in anie duetie that my poore hand is able to reach vntounto. And that he dareth me not once but ſundry times to anſwere touching theſe matters of Diſcipline, I think it not ſo fitte for me to vndertake it, there being ſo many better able therevnto then I, eſpeciallie in this declyning & forgetfull age of mine. And yet if my anſwere might hauehave either that alowance of print, or paſſage that his hath, and none other were found: I my ſelf in this weakneſſe I am in, would not be behind with anſwere to anie thing that he hath bene able to alleadge in this behalfe: If there be any thing in his writings, the anſwere wherof is not already ſet downe by ſuch as hauehave written in that cauſe: And that my ſilence in the cauſe of Diſcipline is not altogeather either of th'inhabilitie or feare, M^r D. Sutcliffe would ſo willingly faſten, or rather force vponupon me, let this be for an Argument, that where I was ſet on worke by the right honorable Sir Francis Walſingham for th'aunſwere of th'annotations of the Ieſuites vponupon the new teſtament, & had traueled therin to a rude and firſt draught of a great part thereof: vnderſtanding from ſome in authoritie that I might not deale with it, I did not onelyonly not ſet any thing out my ſelfe, but alſo earneſtly laboured by letters and friendes heere and in Scotland both the(a)(a)And if he ſtayed the publiſhing of that wherevnto he was once alowed by authoritie, it is not in al likelihood to be thought that he would haſtely publiſh anie thing of him ſelf, how ſoeuer he migt be perſwaded of the truth of it? hinderaunce of printing ſome partes therof, which beeing brought to Sir Francis afterwarde (much againſt my will) came into the handes of diuers to whom I would neuer hauehave let them come.

M^r D. Sutcliffes accuſation.

M^r Cartwright vponupon the comming forth of Martin is reported to hauehave ſaied that it was no matter, if the BB. were ſo handled, ſeeing they would take no warning. fol. 48. p. 1.

Thomas Cartwrightes anſwere.

Let it be iudged what chriſtian louelove it is to committe ſuch things to print vponupon a bare report. And if the reporters had bene named as in other caſes where he doth call out the perſons by their names, the trueth might hauehave the better appeared: For me, I am able to produce witneſſes, that the firſt time that euer I heard of Martin Marprelate, I teſtified my great miſliking & grief, for ſo naughtie, and ſo diſorderly a courſe as that was. And therefore where fol. 51. pa. 1. he aſketh when I will condemne th'vnlawfull and vnciuill practiſe of Martin and Penry? I aſke againe what office or charge I hauehave to publiſhe condemnation vponupon eueryevery vnlawfull and vnciuill writing that cometh abroad? And yet I hauehave witneſſes, that euen publikely when I was alowed to preach, I condemned all dealing in that kinde.

M^r D. Sutcliffes accuſation, fol. 61. p. 1.

Extemporall prayers Tho. Cartwright commendeth most highly, as being vttered by the holy Ghostes ſecret inſpiration: and ſcarſe would be induced (when time was) to like of a preſcript forme of prayer. And in the margen is added, Thomas Cartwrightes reply.

Thomas Cartwrightes onſwere.

Where, in my replie, or in treatiſe of what matter I remember not, nor M^r Sutcliffe (I beleeue) ſhall euer ſhew that Thomas Cartwright hath ſo litle knowledge of diuinitie as to affirme that the extemporall prayers of anie (how able ſoeuer in theſe daies) are vttered by the holy ghoſtes ſecret inſpiratiō. And in what place or time and in whoſe hearing could I ſcarcely be induced to like of a preſcript forme of praier? The noting of theſe circūſtances, which he doth diligently, yea curiouſly (where he thinketh they may ſerue the turne) would eaſely hauehave bewraied, th'vntrueth hereof. My cōtinuall practiſe in the miniſterie witneſſeth againſt it, for in the ſpace of fiue yeres I preached at Antwerpe and Middelborogh, I did eueryevery ſunday read the praier out of the booke: And all the while I preached at Warwike there were few ſermons I euer made there but (to my remembrance) I did ſhutt vp the praier either before or after the ſermon with the Lordes praier: Beſides that the praier before the ſermon ordinarily was a ſet and accuſtomed forme of praier howſoeuer I read it not out of the booke, and likewiſe was that after the ſermon ſome ſmall part excepted, where in my praier I applied ſome principal pointes of the doctrine the handled: All which I would not hauehave done, if I had not alowed, yea well liked alſo a preſcript forme of praier. And hitherto of the former kind of ſlaunders concerning the breach of neceſſarie dueties impoſed vponupon all chriſtians. The ſecond of things indifferent in their owne nature foloweth: For as touching his charge of odious and ignorant railing, &c. I referre my ſelf to indifferent iudgemēt vponupon the bookes which are extant.

M^r D. Sutcliffes accuſation in his former booke, th'effect whereof is.

That notwithſtanding Thomas Cartwright condemneth Executorſhip in other Ministers of the woord, yet that he was content to be Executor to his brother Stubbes his will: Looke alſo fol. 69. pag. 2. of his laſt booke.

Thomas Cartwrightes anſwere.

I was not ſo much as named in my brothers will, and to put of M^r Sutcliffes ſhift of anſwere he hath made to excuſe him ſelf in his latter booke, that by the woord of laſt will he would vnderſtand anie conveiance lately made before his death, wherein truſt was committed vntounto me: I anſwere, that my brother Stubbes did neuer either long before or ſoone after his death put me in truſt with anie of his worldly eſtate either by woord or writing. Neither is there (as M^r Sutcliffe ſurmiſeth) any vnkindneſſe of my Brothers towardes me, in not putting me in truſt which would not that way be employed, or my vnkindneſſe towards him, who truſted him with my whole eſtate that way. And that my Brothers wife and kindred rested not ſatiſfied with my dealing: either is an vntrueth of M^r Sutcliffes report, or a moſt cauſeleſſe complaint of their behaulf. For where in regard of my wifes portion of twoo hundred pound, I had an annuity in fee-ſimple, for default of payment whereof after his death, (beſides th'annuity and arrierages) I had a leaſe of a hundred yeres graunted me of certeine paſtures to the yearely valew of ſix pound by eſtimatiō for a pepercorne only I was cōtent, to th'end that the landes might be ſold for the ſatisfying of my brothers creditours, freely and for naught to releaſe my intereſt in that leaſe, which the law, for want of paiement of th'annuitie, did euidently caſt vponupon me: alſo to yeeld vp mine annuitie for the ſame ſumme of mony I had payed to my Brother, without both which my Brothers lande would hauehave found no conuenient ſale for the paiement of his creditors vntill this day. And of my dealing herein, I take witneſſe of Sir Robert Iermin of Suffolke, M^r Atkins & M^r Tindall of Lincolnes Inne: who were (in deed) the men my brother truſted with his worldly eſtate: and who (in my iudgement) acquited the truſt my brother repoſed in them accordingly.

M^r D. Sutcliffes accuſation.

In his former booke he ſaieth, that I purchaſed three or fower good Mannours with the ſpoile of the Hoſpitall, and that only with the ſale of a cottage and three or fower Acres of land: or (as to my remembrance he ſpeaketh in another place of his former booke) as much land as would graze three or foure Goſelings. Looke alſo fol. 68. p, 2. of his later Booke, & fol. 69. He may mend the matter if it pleaſe him, by conveying his landes and leaſes to his Hoſpitall: By which the law intendeth he hath gotte them for the most part. And fol. 70. He hath two leaſes at Welborne, he bought of M^r. Alexander Morgan, yerely woorth two hundred markes: His landes in Norfolk▪ part wherof he had of his brother Stubbes, amount to halfe the ſumme: the valew of that he bought in Warwikeſhire he knoweth best him ſelfe, ſome benefite hee hath made of the leaſes of the Hoſpitall.