A Wholesome Antidote Against Anabaptists, Dialogue 10
The .x. treatie or dialoge.
How that the Soules after that thei be departed from the body do not ſlepe, but lyue in chriſt.
Ioiada.
BVt, with this opinion, they do aboliſh the goſpel, which teacheth of the reſurrection of Chriſt: as ſaynt Paule, in the fyrſt chap. to the Romayns, doth ſay: Beſyde that, they doo denye, the laſt Article of oure fayth, that is to ſaye: The lyfe euerlaſtyng, after this lyfe. Is not this therfore a pernitious Doctrine, that repugneth agaynſt ſo manifeſt veritie, and ſure beleue?
Sy.
Thou doeſt not vnderſtande the Anabaptiſtes, For they doo neyther denye the Goſpell, nor the Reſurrection of Chriſt. They ſaye that the Soules, after the deathe of the bodye, (if they dooe departe in fayth) do ſlepe in the boſome of Abraham, tyl the day of iudgement, & that then, they do entre into euerlaſting life. And proue their ſaiynges by the goſpell, & by Paule. Luc. xvi. i. Theſſ. iiii. I wyl not hauehave you to be ignoraunt touchyng them, that are a ſlepe. &c. In the Olde Teſtament, it is written of the Fathers, that thei fal a ſlepe, with their Fathers. And alſo, it is ſayde of Stephen, that he dyd ſlepe in the Lord. And that thei at lengthe, ſhall receyue euerlaſtyng lyfe, they do proue it by Paule .ii. Timoth. iiii. I hauehave ſayeth he, fought a good fyght. Now is there layde vp for me, a croune of rightwyſneſſe, which the Lorde, who is a rightfull iudge. ſhall geue or render vntounto me, vponupon that day, not onelyonly to me, but alſo to al them that louelove his comynge. There is ſuche a thyng. Phil. iii. & i. Iohn. iii. Or what neade is it, of that laſt iudgement, if by & by, after his death, eueryevery man receyueth his owne dome: theſe do ſeme vntounto me ſtrong. Nowe wyll I fayne he are what thou canſt ſaye agaynſt it.
Io.
I ſaye the ſame thyng that I ſayde before. If our ſoules dooe ſleepe, after the death of the bodye, the ſoule of Chriſt ſleepeth alſo, and the reſurrection is diſanulled. For Chriſt dyd proue that ther was an euerlaſting lyfe by his riſing agayne, which can not be euerlaſtyng, if the ſoule ſlepeth, and begynneth then to lyue, when iudgement dothe come. Wherfore the ſleepe of the Anababtiſtes, dothe euacuate and diſanull, the goſpell and reſurrection. As for the boſome of Abraham, I aſke the whether it be, a ſlepyng place & dormitori, or a receptacle, and place to receyue the lyuyng?
Sy,
A place whervnto, the ſoules of ye faithfull Chriſten men, ar gathered together, tyll the day of iudgement.
Ioi.
Where is that place, aboue, or benethe?
Sy,
It is vncerteyne to me, God doth know. Nor it is not lawfull for vsus, to enquyre
Sy.
So ye do defend al vncertayne thynges, that ye do teache. And ye that do ſpeake & babble muche of the boſome of Abraham, and do not know yet page missing
That comyng of Chriſt ſhall be in the laſt day of all.
Ioia.
What and I vnderſtande that, of the comyng of Chriſt, at the ende of eueryevery mans lyfe?
Sy.
So thou doeſt ſay: but it muſt be proued by the holy ſcriptures.
Io.
Theſe ar not my wordes, but the wordes of him, that ſpeaketh there, of his owne death. For he vſeth this word, to go, for to dye. (ſo that to go, and to dye, is all one thyng, with him) And agayne, this worde, to come, wherfore the Anababtiſtes doo ſtryue, is not taken, for his laſt comyng, but for the reſurrectiō of chriſt: and ye helpe and ayde, that he ſheweth vponupon the faythfull chriſten men being in extreme nede. For he came agayne, after that he was ryſen from death, & dyd declare, that he had opened the kingdom of god: that we might be ſure, that as he dyd entre in to heauen him ſelfe, ſo we ſhuld come in or entre in alſo. But he is entered, in to immortal lyfe, & not in to ſlepe, in to the kyngdome of God, and not in to the boſome of Abraham, and that by & by after his death. Therfore we ſhall alſo, incontinent after our death, entre in to euerlaſtyng lyfe, and into the kingdome of God. For he taketh vsus away, when he calleth vsus from death to lyfe. Iohn. v. For it is added by maner of expoſicion: That where I am, ther ye may be alſo. Therfore are we taken in ſoule, from death to euerlaſtyng lyfe, & in body, to iudgement. Or tell me, dyd Chriſt with his death, reſerate & open heauen, whiche was locked vp afore or not?
Sy,
I do graunt that he did opē it.
Ioi.
But what neadeth this reſeration or openyng, if the ſoules doo not entre in to lyfe? Where as notwithſtādyng Paul doeth ſay: I coueit to be diſſolued, & deliuered from this body, & to be wt chriſt. beleuyng that after this death, he ſhould be with Chriſt. Peter moreouer doeth ſaye, that for this cauſe, the goſpel was preached vntounto the dead, that they ſhuld be iudged in the fleſh, but lyue, after, or in ye ſpirit, do not theſe manifeſt places teache & proue, that the ſoules doo lyue, with God? For he ſayeth that y• goſpell was preached vntounto the dead: What is els the goſpel, to be preached, but redemption & lyfe to be preached. And what were they that were dead, but they, which after that thei were departed, were gathered in the boſome of Abraham?
Sy.
But howe was the goſpell preached vntounto them?
Ioia.
The vertue of the paſſion of Chriſt, and the fruit of his death, which were profitable vntounto them.
Sy.
How?
Ioi.
Becauſe that they being deliuered, thorough the death of Chriſt, ar receiued, as touching their ſoules, into euerlaſtyng lyfe. In the laſt day, they ſhall ryſe bodily, and as all other, ſhall be iudged, in the vniuerſall iudgement. In the meane ſeaſon their ſoules do liue with God. Is it proued ſufficiently that the ſoules that wer in the boſome of Abraham are delyuered, & brought in to heauen?
Sy.
I dooe not ſaye agaynſt it.
Ioia.
And thou ſhalt fynde none other thing in the word of god▪ It followeth therfore, that th… Boſome of Abraham is no dormitory, or ſlepyng place, but an euerlaſtyng lyfe: Which thyng we may proue by the .xvi. of Lu▪ For ther it is written, that Lazarus is in ioy and ſolace, whe… as the rycheman is punyſhed in hell. If ſo be that the ſoule (as ye doo ſay) ſhulde ſlepe, ſhe coulde hauehave no ioye, excepte i… were by dreames: if ſhe reioyſeth or hauehave ioy, it is impoſſible that ſhe ſhoulde ſlepe. Likewiſ… it is manifeſt li knowen & ſhewed in the .viii. of Mathew, that many ſhall come, & ſytte in the kyngdome of God, with Abraham, Iſaak, and Iacob. That in the meane ſeaſon, I ſhoulde ſai nothing, that ſlepe is clean… contrarye to the nature of the ſoule, which is in Greke called …nteſecheia, or Endeſechia, that is to ſai … perpetuall and vnrequietable …otion or workyng.
Sy.
Theſe …hinges are more manifeſt, and more ſtrong, then I thought.
Ioia.
It is the poynte of an vnwiſe man to ſay, I thought not, and hauyng hearde, but one …arte, to geue ſentence. The A…ababtiſtes do aduaunce, and …et forth gaily, and paintyngly their argumentes, but they are weake and nothyng ſtrong.
Sy.
I woulde fayne know, in what ſignificaciō, the ſcripture vſeth this worde to ſlepe, which is ſo often tymes founde, in eueryevery place of the Bible.
Ioia.
Among the auncient fathers, this worde, to ſlepe, was to dye naturally, or after the commen courſe of nature. And becauſe of the reſurrectiō, it was ſaied, that thei which dyd dye, ſleape. For as a man geueth hym ſelfe to ſleape, doubting nothing, but that he ſhall wake agayne from his ſleape: ſo the body ſleapeth that is to ſay dyeth, & doeth ly… in the graue, beyng kepte there …yl the day of the general reſurrection. So the Fathers dy… ſleape: ſo Stephen, & all othe… godly perſons. Seyng therfor… that to ſleape, is to dye, and th… ſoules can not dye, it foloweth that they canne not ſleape. Fo… Stephen dyd ſaye: Lorde, receiue thou my ſpirite, which thyng: when he had ſaied, & ha… cōmitted or cōmended his ſoul to the heauenly father, his bod… ſleapynge, dyd dye. In thy thyng, they are deceyued, tha… they do attribute vntounto the ſou… that which belongeth to the body only. But in the meane ſeaſō it is attributed to the whole mā becauſe of the vnitie of the body and of the ſoule, beyng knytted in one perſone. Which example was brought afore, of Chriſt, in whom the body died only, & not his godhead, nor his ſoule. Lykewyſe a man ſlepeth, but with his bodye, & not with his ſoule. The Anababtiſtes doo not, nor wyl not vnderſtand this figure Sin…cdoch…, nor the other figures, & tropes. Which thyng cauſeth them to erre in many thynges. But ignorauncye maketh them the bolder, to teache, what ſo euer they do dreame or conceyue in their ſleape.
Sy.
Yet it is euident that Paul ſaith, that a cotoune of rightwiſnes ſhalbe rē dered vntounto him at lengthe, when th… Lorde cometh. And alſo that which is written in Iohn, an… in the Epiſtle to the Philipen… is ſure and ſtrongly grounded▪
Ioia.
This ought to be obſerue… Symon, that the daye of th… Lorde in ſcriptures, is not alwayes to bee taken for the laſ… day, but ſomtyme, for the truth and lyght: as in the goſpell o… Iohn, otherwhyles for the vi… ſitacion of the Lorde: as ofte… tymes, in the Prophetes, and .… Cor. iii. ſometyme for the end… & death of eueryevery man: as Ioh… vi. I wyll reſuſſitate or rayſ… him agayne, to euerlaſtyng life in the laſt daye, that is to ſaye… when he dyeth. For when an… man dyeth, that day is laſt vnt… hym. After thys maner, dy… Paule call, the laſt daye, in th… Epiſtle to Timothe. For he had ſpoken before of his death, ſaiyng: I am ready to be offered: affirming, that he had ben faith full and loyall, in his courſe, & therfore, he dyd not doubte, but that the rightwiſe iudge, ſhulde render vntounto him, the coroune of rightwyſneſſe, which, as he leaueth no vnrightwyſneſſe vnpunyſhed, ſo alwayes rewardeth them that lobor faithfully. And this place doeth rather for vsus, then for the Anababtiſtes, ſeing that Paule dothe hope, that the coroune of rightwyſneſſe, duyd vntounto the rightwyſe, ſhalbe renderyd vntounto him, at the tyme of his death. Ergo, he beleueth not, that the ſoules do ſlepe, but that they do lyue euerlaſtingly. That, which thou aledgeſt out of Iohn and Paule to the Philipenſes, are ſpoken, of the laſt iudgement, but they proue not that the ſoules are a ſleape. For that, whiche they doo ſpeake of ſaluation there, dooe perteyne more to the reſurrection of the body. For theſe are the wordes of Paule: He ſhall transforme (that is to ſay Chriſt) our vyle body, that he may make it conforme and lyke, to his glorious body. What meane theſe thingꝭ elles, but that our bodyes hauehave full hope of reſurrection. or riſyng agayn? As Iob dyd ſpeke Iob .ix.
Sy.
If the ſoules dooe receyue by and by, their iudgement as ſone, as they be departed, what neadeth that vniuerſall iudgement?
Ioia.
It perteyneth to the whole man, whiche ſhall be repayred or made new agane, with the body, that ſhall ryſe, & with the ſoule. Of the which thyng, it is written, Cheſſ .iiii. & Mat. xxiiii. & .xxv. Doeſt thou yet deſyre any thīg?
Sy.
I had leauer heare foundations and groundes oute of the ſcriptures.
Ioia.
I hauehave brought verye many alreadye, what dooeſt thou aſke more?
Sy.
Thou haſt other helpes yet, the which I pray the, to bryng forth.
Ioia.
Seynge that thou arte deſyrous of the truthe, I wyll hyde nothyng frome the. This Doctrine and Opinion, of the Sleape of the Soules, dooeth not ouelye repugne agaynſt the Scriptures & fayth, dooeth not onelyonly diſanulle the Goſpell and Reſurrection of Chriſt, but is alſo agaynſt all cōmune ſenſe & reaſone, a rude and vnclearkelye ignoraunce, but go to, let vsus expounde theſe thyngꝭ: I aſke thee, if the ſoule be a body, or a ſpirite?
Sy.
It is not a bodye, nor any groſſe ſubſtaunce, but a ſyngle and pure ſpirite.
Ioia.
Can then a ſpirite be ſubiect to bodily infirmities, as to be an hongered, to be weryed, to dye. &c.
Sy.
No, for theſe perteyne to the bodye onelyonly. A ſpirite, is immortall, incorruptible, euerlaſting or perpetuall.
Ioiada.
Thou ſayeſt very well, therfore marke thyne argumēt thus: Sith the ſoule is a ſpirit, & not a bodye, it can not be ſubiecte to bodily paſſions or infirmities, but is exempte frome them: ſlepe doth chaunce to the body, thorough werineſſe. Ergo the ſoule can not ſlepe: for the ſoule cannot be weary. Or canſt thou brynge any other thynge concernyng ſlepe?
Sy.
No, for all operacions and ſenſes dooe ceaſſe and reſt, and excepte the body ſhulde brethe, folkes wold thynke that it were dead.
Ioia.
Now, if our ſoules ſhould ſlepe, it ſhoulde folow, that after this lyfe, we doo feele neither good, nor euyll, which dothe directly pugne agaynſte the Goſpell. Moreouer, we wyl proue by the nature of the ſlepe, that the ſoules can not ſlepe, but the bodye only. For now I aſke the, when doeth the ſoule ſlepe, after that ſhe is departed frome the body, or when ſhe is yet ioyned to the body?
Sy.
At bothe tymes.
Ioi.
Neither of them can be trew: and I do meruail that ſo groſſe an anſwere dyd come from the. For ſeyng that the Soule, can muche leſſe ſlepe, when ſhe hath put awaye the burdeyn of th… body, then when ſhe beareth about yet, the burdeyn of the body, & doeth not ſleape, when ſh… is yet in the bodye, it followet… that ſhe ſleapeth muche leſſe, when ſhe is deliuered from th… bodye And that ſhe doeth not ſlepe beyng in the body, it maye be knowen by thys, that in the tyme of wakyng, the body doth alwayes, without reſt & quyet, worke, which actions do come from the ſoule. Ergo, it is manifeſt, that whiles that the body waketh, the ſoule ſleapeth not. And agayn, when the body hath geuē it ſelf to reſt & to ſlepe, the ſoule worketh with a perpetual motion or mouyng, & doeth neuer reſt or ceaſſe, either ſhe bretheth, or doeth ſome thynge alwayes, withe the vertue of remembraunce & vnderſtādyng, or with the other excellent vertues & powers. All mans lyfe is eyther wakynge, or reſt: in none of them bothe, doeth the ſouleſleape. Ergo the ſoule doeth not ſleape at all. Therfore ſlepe, longeth only to the body, & not to the ſoule. For when the ſoule begīneth ones to hauehave life it is a perpetual Enteſechia, comeyng frō the euerlaſting & eternall fontayne of goodneſſe, the which perpetuall Enteſechiia, that is to ſay, vnrequietable, & perpetuall action and mouyng in the ſoule, if any man denayeth, by that ſame reaſon he muſt denay the ſoule
Sy.
Theſe thyngꝭ are ſomewhat darke vntounto me.
Ioiada.
Therefore, I wyll declare them, by an exāple: Fyer is a very pure & actuall thyng, whiche after that it begynneth ones, can neuer ceaſſe from his operacion and workyng, tyll it be quenched: and that is, when it hathe nothyng, whervpon, it maye ſhew, and exerciſe his operacion. If thou denyeſt the operacion & working of the fier, thou haſt denyed the fyer. The nature of the ſoule is very like, which after, that ſhe is poured in to the body, by god, is a liuely and working ſpirite, and can neuer ceaſſe nor be at reſt. Wylt thou hauehave no fyer, take awaye the operacion. If thou denyeſt the Soule, attribute vntounto her, ſlepe. For to ſay, that the ſoule is a ſlepe, and to ſaye, that the ſoule is not, is all one thyng.
If the ſoule ſlepeth, ſhe dooeth reſt, if ſhe dooeth reſt, ſhe worketh not, if ſhe doeth not worke, ſhe is not. For to worke, and to be in the ſoule, is all one thing, …yth that ſhe is a perpetual motion, & workyng. But the ſoule is, therfore ſhee ſleapeth not. Dooeſt thou vnderſtande this thyng?
Sy.
Very well.
Ioia.
Therfore did I ſay, that the A…ababtiſtes knowe not, the nature of the ſoule.
Sy.
Thou ſhuldeſt peraduenture hauehave perſuaded ſomewhat, to Timens, and Phedrus, Platos diſciples, I had leauer heare Scriptures.
Ioia.
The Saduces, dyd teache that ther was no Reſurrection, and by this, dyd denye the immortalitie, and perpetual workyng of the ſoule, yea, and alſo Angels, and all maner of Spirites. Act. xiii. The Lorde dyd ſtop their mouthes, with theſe reaſons. Ye erre (ſayth he) not knowing the ſcriptures, nor the vertue of God. God, after the death of the Fathers, calleth hym ſelfe, the God of Abrahā, Iſaac and Iacob, which is not the God, of the dead. but of the lyuyng, and that therfore, Abraham, and the other Fathers were a lyue, and not dead. Thei were dead in body, a gret whyle afore, and buryed: Therfore Chriſt ſpeaketh here, of the lyfe of the ſoule. Ergo, the ſoule beyng ſeparated from the body, is in her owne kynde, worketh lyuely, and ſlepeth not. This ſyllogyſme and argument, doo I put to all the Anababtiſtes, to anſwer to, that they may cleare them ſelfe frome the hereſye of the Saduces. For thei are lyke vntounto the Saduces and Manicheans. What ſhoulde I ſay of the wordes of Chriſt, whiche hangyng vponupon the Croſſe, doeth comforte, the thiefe with theſe wordes, ſaiyng: To daye thou ſhalte be with me in Paradiſe.
Sy.
Paradiſe, and the Boſome of Abraham, are all one thyng, to the Anababtiſtes, where thei ſay, that the ſoules doo ſleape.
Ioia.
Thei do affirme this with out ſcriptures, and with an hereticall ſpirite. Chriſt ſayeth: To day, thou ſhalte be with me in Paradiſe. Ponder euerye worde. If Paradice, is a ſleapyng place, Chriſt ſleapeth in it alſo. For he ſayeth: To daye thou ſhalte be. Moreouer, the thiefe prayeth Chriſt, to remember him, when he ſhoulde come in to hys kyngdome. If the kyngdome of God, is a Dormitorie or Sleapyng place: what doo the ſcriptures ſpeake, of the Reſurrection, and Aſcendyng of Chriſt in to heauen? Ye ate obſtacle aſſes, O Anababtiſtes, whiche dare make mention of ſuche ſleapyng, agaynſt ſo manifeſt places of the ſcriptures. What ſhall thei ſay, to the wordes of Chriſt. Iohn. v.? He that heareth my word, and beleueth in him, that hath ſent me, ſhall not come in to iudgement, but is paſſed frome deathe to lyfe. Whiche woordes are ſo cleare, that no mā can denay them, but heretikes. Let the .xi. of Iohn. and the .xv. of the firſt Epiſtle to the Corinthians. Item the .ii. Cor .ii. be reade, and it ſhal euidently he knowen, that the ſleape of the Anababtiſtes, is a blaſphemy agaynſt the Goſpell and Reſurrection of Chriſt.
Sy.
If the matter be better looked vponupon: the Anababtiſtes can not cleare them ſelues, from the crime of ouer boldneſſe & ignorancye: but they hauehave not pondered all theſe thingꝭ ſo exactly
Ioia.
Why dooe they preſume to teach then, & take vpō thē that, which paſſeth their ſtrengthe? And agayne, when they be conuicted, wyll not geue the vpper hande to the truthe? But becauſe they wyll be ſene ſtedfaſt, they be founde, in all thynges, frowarde, and obſtacle. To ſay briefly: They doo all thynges, with contention, arrogancye, and ignoraunce.
Sy.
I woulde had queſtioned with the, touchyng the .vi. Concluſion, but that I muſt go to myne Iune: Tomorow, if thou canſt hauehave leaſyr, I wyll be here betymes in the morning, and reaſon farther with the.
Ioiada.
I am well pleaſed, for I wyll go, to myne Inne alſo: be thou to morow, in better readineſſe.
Symon,
God be with the.
Ioiada.
Fare well.
SOLIDEO HONOR ET GLORIA▪
¶ Thou ſhalt vnderſtāde, good Chriſten Reader, that immediately after this, as ſone as may be, thou ſhalte hauehave the ſeconde Booke, whiche entreate vponupon as many thynges as this Booke doeth, bothe fruitfull to be knowen, and alſo moſt neceſſarye for theſe perillouſe tymes: in the which, the Diuell doeth all, that he can, to extinguiſh the trew Doctrine of the Goſpell: whiche at this tyme, thorough our godly Magiſtrates, doeth reuiue, and floriſh agayne: Fare well, and pray, that we may performe the Woorke that we hauehave in haude.
End of the text · Henrich Bullinger, A Wholesome Antidote Against Anabaptists (1548)