Doctor Hills Reasons for Upholding of Papistry Unmasked, Dialogue 10

Doctor Hills Reasons for Upholding of Papistry Unmasked · Dialogue 10

p. 364THE TENTH REASON. Fathers.

T. HILL.

THE Catholike Romane religion is most plainely taught by all the ancient Fathers of the first, second, thirde, fourth, fift and sixt hundred yeares after Christ, and hath beene ever (vvithout all controversie) taught of the Fathers of everie age since vntill this day. That religion did Diony sius Areopagita, S. Paule his scholer so manifestly teach as Causaeus a French Protestant called him for his labour a doating old Causaeus Dial. 5. & 11. In capt: Babilonica.man, much like as his father Luther had said before him that Areopagita his workes were like to dreames and most pernicious. The same faith vvas taught of Saint Ignatius, Clemens, Iustinus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus, and in one vvord all the anncient Fathers not one excepted.

p. 365G. ABBOT.

WHen Thomas Pilcher sometimes an vnworthy fellow of a Colledge in Oxford, but afterward an vnlearned Priest of the Seminary, after pardon once given him for his life, and beeing exiled from his Countrey, returned againe into Englande to pervert the subiectes of her late Maiestie, he vvas by arrest of lawe to be brought to execution, vvhere, as I hauehave heard, being remembred by an intelligent person that he should bee well advised what the right or wronge of the cause was, for which hee did suffer, his reply was, that if hee were in an errour, then Irenaeus and Iustine Martyr, Tertullian and Origene, Lactantius, Hilary, Chrysostome, Ambrose, Hierome, Austen, Gregorie, Bearnarde, and all other the olde Fathers of the Primitiue Church, vvere mightily deceived: for what he held they taught. The silye man had much adoe to learne the names of all these, but for reading any of them, or for knowing what they vvrote, there bee many yet living, who dare safely giuegive their word, that he good man was never troubled with it. This is the very case of the greatest part of you Papists: you wil speak without the book, and make good little of that which you say: but yet for lacke of chalenging & facing it out, you will loose nothing of antiquity. And among al your copes-mates, as one that knoweth least, and therfore dareth to say most, you lay about you here for al & al againe. You are now come to your selfe, revested with your olde spirite, and therefore wee will looke for a legion of Vniversals at your handes. The vn-Catholike Romane Religion, it is Papistry which you meane, is not onelyonly taught, or plainly taught, but most plainelie taughte, not by some, but by all the ancient Fathers of the first sixe ages after Christ, and hath beene not sometimes but ever, not doubtingly but without all controversie taught of the Fathers of each age vntill this day. If you had a fore-heade lefte, and knevve vvhat you did saye, vvhichwhich I thinke p. 366you doe not, but onelyonly take vp this speech on the word of other men, you would blush a whole yeare togither at this your owne absurdity, and by that time woulde this rubour bee so setled in your face, that it would never out. For, that I may plucke you a little backe by the sleeue, doth Saint Augustine, and, Orosius, & Fulgentius, and Bernard, where they of purpose handle the argument, teach as you do teach cōcerning the freenesse of Gods grace every way, and touching free will? aaIn pref. 1. 5 Bibli. SāctSixtus Senensis shall condemne you, who reiecteth Saint Augustines doctrine in that behalfe. Doe Lactantius and Ephiphanius say as you say concerning Images? Doe Clemens Alexandrinus, and Basile, and Gregory Nazianzen, and Chrysostome ioine with you in prohibiting the mariage of the Clergy? Is Theodoret youre in the matter of Transubstantiation, when hee who in the end of his bbPost Epiphan The. Dialog.Dialogues writeth the Admonition to the Reader, is enforced though hee bee a Papist, to confesse, that hee hath many things against it. Are Tertullian and Saint Augustine of your minde when they expounde This is my body, to meane but the signe or figure of his body? Is Saint Ambrose yours about praying to Saintes? Is Cyprian, yea Gregory himselfe of your iudgement, about the supremacie of Peter and of the Pope? Amongst a hundred examples I doe but touch these things, as having occasion else-where more largely to handle every one of these points. So litle account do you make of truth, being either spurred to it by ignoraunce, or blinded with maliciousnes, both which in you are wonderfully desirous to vpholde your drowping cause.

2 That Causaeus or Luther doe brande your Dionysius Areopagita for a counterfeit, and speake of him accordingly, we doe not marveile. There was one of that name indeede, an ccAct. 17. 34.Acts 17:34auditor of S. Paule, but these bookes fastened on him, are not worthy of his person. What is there in them all which savoureth of a man taught by an Apostolicall spirit? S. Paule was facile in his vvriting, that the multitude might vnderstand his maine drift every where: this is so obscure that nothing can be darker. S. Paules words were for edification: this is full of vaine curiosity, taking on him to describe every angle and office in heaven. Sainte p. 367ddCol. 2. 18Col 2:18Paule rebuked those who meddling with the worshipping of Angels, did advance themselues in those things which they never saw: this fellow speaketh of the Angels as if he had been set to take the muster and view of them single from one end of heaven to the other. But his booke De divinis Nominibies doth much display him for a counter feit. For as it may bee well questioned in him, how he could cite the Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans, which was eeEue Eccl. hist. li. 3. 30.written but a little before the death of Ignatius; & he was martyred in the time of Traiane… whereas Dionysius was a man of that age, that long before Saint Pauls death vnderunder Nero hee was a Senatour of ffAct 17 34:Acts 17:34Athens, or one of their iudges in the streete of Mars: so it cannot be excused that he ggDe divinis nominibus.citeth Clemēt the Philosopher, which being Clemens Alexandrinus did liue almost two hundred yeares after Christ, and therefore this Dionysius citing him was not like to bee the hearer of the Apostle Paule. Now in the eight booke of his Stromata, Clemens indeed doth shew himselfe a Philosopher, yea if you will a Logician, talking of the Predicaments, and naming Relatiues, which is the point for the which this forged Dionysius citeth him. Againe, this booke is dedicated to Timothy Bishop of Ephesus, who being so long a scholer and fellow traveiler with S. Paule, needed not so meane a man, & in so barbarous a fashion to instruct him in those things which this sweete Authour pretendeth. Besides this, if there had beene such an Authour of any worth or name, some of the ancient writers would hauehave given him some credite, and sometimes hauehave mencioned him. Eusebius letteth not any man scape who was ought, or left any monument to the church. Notwithstanding he hath not any worde of this Dionysius. S. Hierome came after him, and wrote a hhCatalog. scripto. Ecclesiastico.treatise purposely of such as before his daies, left any bookes to posterity, where neverthelesse the hame of this Dionysius is not to be found. And so much doth iiLib. 6. Bib. Annot 229.Sixtus Senensis himselfe obserue, who also kkLib. 2.elsewhere telleth vsus, that Cardinal Caietane in his Commentaries on the Acts as also on the thirde of Kings excepteth against this Dionysius, as vnworthy of all credite. There is another treatise in the name of llDe caelesti Hierarchia.Dionysius which recordeth to vsus in particular 9. several orders of Angels. If such a tract had bin known amōg the anciēt, or p. 368had beene of any reputation vvith them, some or other of the olde Fathers speaking of Angels, vponupon iust occasion would hauehave named either it, or the authour, or the matter of it. mmHaeres. 64Epiphanius saith that there are more degrees of Angels then one, but howe many hee nameth not. To the same purpose speaketh nnIn Ps. 118.Ps 118Hilary; but he hath no fixed number. ooDialog: 1.Caesarius the brother of Gregory Nazianzen saith that there be seaven orders of Angels. Saint ppEucharid. ad Lauren. ca. 58.Austen as wise & learned a man as he was, yet professeth that he knoweth not, what Sedes, & Dominationes, et principatus (word… by some expounded to bee severall sortes of Angels) do mean. If he had seene that worke of Dionysius, he might hauehave helped his ignorance; for he describeth thē to an inch, if we will beleeue him. In another place the same qqAd Orosium contr. Priscilliā & origenistasAusten writeth thus of himself; That th…re be these Seates, or Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, Powers in the heavenly furnitures, I doe most firmely beleeue, and with an vndoubted faith I doe held that they doe somewhat differ between themselues. But to the ende that you may thinke meanly of me whom you repute to be a great Doctour, what these …ee and how they differ amonge themselues I know not. But perhaps it may be obiected that rrIn Questionibus.Athanasius, yea and out of Dionysius, saith that there bee nine orders of Angels. I answere, first that indeede he nameth one Dionysius, & attributeth to him the title of a Divine, but he calleth him, not Areopagita, and therefore hee may meane some other later fellow. Secondly, the treatise containing this, is expunged out of the workes of Athanasius, and put among those that are held to be forged; so that here but one lyer doth speake for another, and then their rewarde is that neither of them ought to be beleeved. Thirdly it agreeth not with an vndoubted place of ssDe cōmuni essent. patris. filij & spi. sanct.Athanasius, for there he rather seemeth to make fiue sorts of Angels, & that with offices differing frō those of Dionysius, as, those that teach, those that permit thinges to bee done, those that punish, those that gratifie souls, and those who remaine with men. Afterward indeede hee mencioneth Thrones, & Cherubins and Seraphins. So that the first who beeing himselfe of any estimation mencioneth Denis, is Gregory the Greate, who in ssMoral: lib: 32. 18:one place saith that there bee nine orders of Angels, but not a word hath he of Dionysius. And in a ttIn 1. King 14.1 Kgs 14second place, so much hee doth and no more. p. 369But in a uuHomil 34 in quadra… ….third he not only hath these distinctiōs of Angels, but he alleageth for it Dionysius also, & that by the name of Areopagita, callīg him an anciēt & venerable Father. But this is a single testimony, & al other of more antiquity make against him; & he may be supposed to do it doubtfully, since naming the matter thrise he speaketh of Denis but once. And moreover Gregory lived 600. yeares after Christ, by which time this bastard might be a hūdred or two hūdred yeare old, & with some might be esteemed authentical, which Gregory might take vp frō thē without farther examinatiō. He who list to see this Denis farther discovered, & quite discarded, let him look that noble uuLib. …:Mo…ney, writīg touching the Masse, & if he be not impudētly refractary, he shall be silēced in this point for ever. Thus you are like to make good work with your Fathers, when the first of your tale is fil… populi, a bastard seed which cannot inherite. What you say of Ignatius, Clemēs, Iust…, Tertulliā, Cypr…, Ir…us, & all the Fathers is a vain, Popish, & Pilcher-like bragge, which is ordinary with such crakers as you are, & till you cite some particular, deserveth no answere but to be denied. If you meant truely to your Readers, you would cite them somewhat for their mony.

T. HILL.

THis is very plaine in that the Cath… are put, & compelled by the Protestants to defend, … & vp…la the …dit & authority of th… said Fathers: for the Protestantes raile as them, the Catholikes defend them; the Protestants refuse their authority, the Catholikes holde i… for … the Protestants will not be …yed by them: the Catholikes appeal… to their iudgement; and to be b…fe, the Protestants make no more ac…te of them, longer then they can wrest them to serue their … th… they d… of Bevis of Southampton, or of Adam Bell. And in … the Protestantes, I include all the Puri…es; for I am not ignor… how the s… Protestants are driven by the said Puritan… to defende th… Fathers, and also are called Papistes for their labour. And …re by i… i… …fest that the Fathers are with the Catholikes, and …her … the Protests …r …. And vvhither all th… …, being men of exce… wits, of …, of …rfull l…ing, p. 370servent in praier, holy in conversation, greatly in Gods favour, mighty in working of miracles, and adorned with many such like giftes vvere more like to vnderstands the Scriptures freshlie delivered vntounto them from the Apostles thēselues (who also no doubt taught their scholors the true sence thereof, and they theirs from one age to another) or these late foolishe, vnstudied, vnlearned, prophane and arregant fellowes, bee iudges your selues.

G. ABBOT.

3 TILL you came to this Period you spake something of your owne peradventure, but now you are apparantly become but evē a plaine trūke to cary along what your M. xxMotiv: 14:Bristow putteth into you: frōstealing out of whose booke, you cannot cōtaine, if your hands were boūd behind you. If hee then lash & lye, you thinke you may do so also, as lying safe vnderunder his shilde. But his target is no thicke one, as that yy…vid Me…amorph Lib: 13:sevē-folde buckler of A…ax was, but made of thinne browne paper, & therfore wil not beare out one blowe. I pray you, where are you forced to vphold the Fathers credite against the Protestants railing at thē? or who of the Protestants be they, that give them not the same right, which God would hauehave to be givē vntounto thē, or which they thēselues desired should be allotted vntounto their writīgs? We hold them & their labours to be great instruments of the setting forth of Gods glory, & we esteeme it as a good blessing frō aboue, that the Lord hath left their labors as monuments to his church, wherein we not only know what was done & taught in the first ages of the christiā world, but may be helped also many waies in the vnderstāding of Scriptures, & beating downe of divers heresies. And our men do study thē, & are as copious & frequent in thē as Papists be, which if you will, you may see, in the bookes of Bishop Iewel, D. Hūfry, D. Folke, Peter Martyr, Chēnicius, yea M. Calvins Institutiōs, to say nothing of divers now livīg. Truth it is, that when our men made the true touch-stōe, & only absolute Iudge of cōtroversies to be the Scripture, Harding & his cō panions in effect flying frō that, would needes beare the world in hand, that if the triall might be by the Fathers, the victory was p. 371certainly theirs. Whervpon in England, (as also in other places before) they who stood for reformation, refusing thē at no weapon ioyned with them there, and now as persons of desperate & deplorate misery you hauehave nothing to helpe you, but by foisting and iugling in chaungelings, vpstarts & counterfeits in steed of vndoubted ones, & by razing and curtolling and clipping the works of those reverend mē, as anone I shal shew you. It is therfore a grosse slaūder that we do raile at them, or that we do wrest them. Where there is iust cause, we as men zzHorat. l. 11 Apistol. 1:Nullius ad…icti iurare, in verba magistri, bound to stand to the opinion of none but of the holy Ghost, we declining-wise do leave thē: but where they subscribe to the authority of God, there we subscribe to them, defend them, & refuse not to be tried by them, so farre as we may by any holy & learned men, of which sort we hold them, but yet stil know them to be men. As for Bevis of Southampton, & Adam bell we hold to be but fictions, such as were devised in the time of Popery, and thought fitte then togither with other Legends to be imparted to the people, that when they should rather hauehave looked into the word of God if they might hauehave bin suffered, they being busied with such toies, might not grow to be of such Christian vnderstāding, as to espy the idolatries & collusions of the Clergy. When a mā who speaketh vntruth cōmeth to examinatiō, his tongue faltereth in his mouth, & his tale crosseth it selfe. So doth yours, who attempting both to soupe and blow at once, make no bones to speake as good as flat cōtradictions, Simul forbere & flare Era…m: in AdageIn the one sentence, the Protestante raile at thē, refuse their authority, make no more account of thē then of Adam Bel, in the next the Protestants are driven by the Puritanes, to defend the Fathers, & they are called Papists for their labour. So they do defend them, & not defend them. They raile on them, & yet speake for them. This is one of the riddles fit for bbTerent. in AndriasOedipus. And yet the Fathers are against both the Protestants & the Puritanes. And why then I request you do the Protestāts so maintaine them? For such dissolute dawbing of paper, you are worthy to be rewarded at least with nothing. It may be said of you, & your maister Bristow, ccVirgils. Eclog. 3:Et vitula tu dignus & hic. It cannot be denied that some men of learning hauehave disliked the over-much heaping vp of Sentences out of the Fathers, p. 372to no purpose or needlessely, & especially if it hauehave bin done in Latin or Greeke, whē Sermōs are made to the ordinary people in the vulgar tongue. But the iudgmēt of the most iudicious & such as respect the edificatiō of the heaters, wil warrāt this their opinion, while it disl…keth not the vse, but the abuse. But that any mā of learning in our church, or of true accoūt in our state, hauehave simply cōdc̄ned the vsing of thē, you cānot shew. Some weaker men in a little hum…ur hauehave seemed to bee no great favourets of thē, pa…tly because they know them not, as dd… in Ad…gijs.Knowledge hath none more eger enemy thē … persō, & partly because they hauehave not learning to vnderstād thē. Also because they wil not be at cost to buy thē, or if these imped…ēts were remooved, because they wil not take the paines to read thē. But even such do daily more & more reforme their iudgmēt, & we doubt not but God who hath put the spirit of moderatiō & temperāte into the greatest, wisest, & most learned of such as in times past were otherwise minded, wil loine vsus al in one against you & the cōmon enemies of the truth, who in an Italionated & out-landish faction litle care what you do. And so I trust every English mā defiring to keepe himself in spiritual purity, & eeIacob…. 27 Motiv. 14.vnspotted of the world, & Poperty, the odious names of Puritans & Precisias wherat you hauehave so triūphed shall to the greefe of your harts be extirpated, & al who louelove the Gospel ioining in one as Christiās & brethrē shal be dutiful subiects to God & our King. Your conclusion is ridiculous & worthy to be hissed at, The Protestants defend the Fathers against the Puritanes, Ergo the Fathers be against both the Protestants and the Puritanes. This is Logicke of the Popish Seminary.

4 The titles which you heere bestow on the ancient Fathers, Bristow setteth downe thus, ff… 14.excellent wits, continual study, wōderfull learning, servent praier, holy cōversation, favour in Gods sight, mighty working of infinite miracles, frō whence & frō the rest, the Reader may iudge, whether you had not Bristowes booke lying before you, whē you skuffled togither this Rhap…ody. As for these praises, we neither envy thē nor deny thē to those great lāpes of the first Church, vnlesse it be that of working of miracles, wherof we make a doubt. And by these helps we say that they were wel furnished to vnderstand & expound many things in the Scripture, p. 373as also somewhat by their neerenesse to the time of the Apostles, in those places especially where truth was kepte without mingling. And yet we will you heere to remember that fewe or scant any one of the Fathers had the Scriptures freshly delivered vntounto him from the Apostles themselues; you are pitifully out, for diverse hundreds of yeeres came betweene Christes disciples and the most of the olde Doctours: And againe to call to minde, that soone after the Apostles, yea as ggEccl. Hist. Lib 3. 26.Eusebius saith, immediately after their death, heretakes came plentifully in, who laboured what they coulde to corrupt the fountaines, whēce all pure water was to flowe. Remember also that for three hundred yeeres by the extremity of persecutiō, the Pastours were few, & they had little liberty to come togither to conferre about thinges questioned, or to follow their studies so much as they would. And yet farther remēber, that some of thē came late frō the Gentiles as Cyprian, some frō heretiks as Eusebius frō the Arriās, & Austē the Manichees, somefrō meere secular callings as Ambrose, & of al these without Gods special grace they might a little participate. Then he is blīd who seeth not, that they had not al those helps, as these hauehave, whō you cal late & folish & vnstudied, & vnlearned, profane & arrogāt fellowes. These words you vse, when you Doctour Hill are not worthy to be sorted, with the meanest of a thousand among them, which speech without amplification or any diminution may be iustifyed onelyonly in the present Church of England. For first wee have the writinges of all those Fathers themselves, like to which every private man of them had not, no nor all the world neither before their times. Secondly since their daies there be infinite bookes written which give light to matters in controversy. Thirdly our age by meanes of printing hath better facility to come by al bookes thē those ancient times had. Fourthly progres of daies hath made many thīgs plainer to later ages, because they hauehave bin already fulfilled, thē they could be to former tims, wherin mē did but gesse at thē. Fifthly God hath made the scriptures of such sort, as that mēs wits are to be exercised in thē vntil y^e day of iudgmēt, & it belōgeth to that industry which God requireth in his servāts, y^e they shold not satisfy thēselues w^t the labours of others, & so growidle, bue they shold search farther, & p. 374inventis add…re. Sixthly the helpe of the tōgues is more rife now, then it was amōg the ordinary sorte of them, as may be seene by Athanasius, who was so stūbled in the hhProv. 8. 22Prov 8:228. Chap. of the Proverbs; the iiAthanas. in decret. Nicen. Synod.Arriās to prove Christ a creature, vrging thence by the trā slatiō of the Septuagint, that it is in the text, kkforeign. Septuag:The Lord made mee, or created me, the beginning of his waies, to which without difficulties, he might easily hauehave aunswered, if hee had looked into the llforeignHebrew, where it is rather as Hierome readeth it the Lord possessed mee, or as Arias Montanus hath it, the Lord got or obtained me. Also Austen had no Hebrew, and both he & Gregory very little Greek, as els-where I have shewed. Now although it be likely that neerest to the fountaines, the waters runne most cleerely, & the farther of, that we are, they are the more likly to be polluted, yet in spirituall thinges that is not to bee vnderstood of place or time but of keeping close to the original of the writen word, and not varying from it. And so a man furnished by God as mmExod. 31: ….Exod 31Beseleel was to the framing of the Tabernacle, may be by the means aboue named, and by praier, conference & study nothing inferiour to those first lightes; even as S. Austen was more excellent in some of his expositions on the Scripture then Origene, and some other more ancient then himselfe were, Which as both for him & S. Hierome especially in his Cōmētaries on the Prophets you cānot deny, so it overturneth your reasō that those who were neerest to the Apostles should do best, by taking it fresh frō thē, & so frō hand to hand. For some of the later did not only equall, but farre exceed those who were their fore-runners, as Chrysostome in the Greeke Church may shewe. Yet vnderstand all this, that we hauehave no matter of moment in any point of religion, nor scant any interpretation of Scripture, but wee vndertake to advouch it, from some or more of the Fathers, in one place or other of their writings, where they hādle those things. It is Popery which lately crept in, that hath with the Glosses therof, declined both the sēce of the holy Ghost, & of the old Fathers; while the pleasures of Popes & the quiddities of the barbarous schoolmē have perverted almost the whole face of Divinity, & brought it to curious speculatiōs, & vnprofitable questiōs. Whē you put it to trial, you shal see that we are not so destitute of the Fathers, p. 375for the proofe of our religion, & the exposition of texts, nor so altogither vnstudied, and illiterate as you in your weake vnderstanding imagine vsus. Touching the imputation of profanenesse, you shall heare of me heereafter.Luther, in capt. Bap. Causaeus vbi supra. Centuriat. centur: 2: c: 10. Calvin: instit cap: 13▪ num. 29. Centur: 2: cop: 5: Causaeus dialog. 8: & 11 & 6: Bez… in Act Apost. cap: 23.

T. HILL.

BUT indeede it is no marveile though the Protestants do contēne yea revile the Fathers, in saying they taught thinges most like to dreames, they were doating olde men: they had foule blemishes and tolde trifling tales: they had weedes and dregges, blaspemies and monsters: they were childish, dull and destitute of God, and babbled they knew not what: they were bewitched of the Devil, as damned as the Devill, blasphemers, naughtie, wicked.

G. ABBOT.

5 HEere you bring a prety beade-roll of such fragmēts, as you have scraped to gither out of some of our side, who as you thinke hauehave perstringed diverse of the Fathers, or at least by your perverting or distorting of their wordes, you would hauehave the world to thinke that they hauehave shrewdly galled thē. Wherin you are much to be cōmēded, that to make the better shew both in your text & margēt, you bring vsus the same things & quotatiōs againe, out of Causaeus & Luther, which in this very Chap. & but one leafe before you delivered vntounto us. This is no rare matter in your writers; for your nnIn Matth. 16: 18:Matt 16:18Rhemists play a pretier part then that, when meaning to spare for no cost, to prooue Peter to be such a rocke, ason whō the Church is principall built, they thwacke authority vppon authority to as good purpose as they can. And therfore they hauehave in the margēt, S. Austen Serm. 26. de Sanctis, and in the text, S. Ambrose, Serm. 68. which are both but one Sermō, put in the workes of both those Fathers, but in truth belonging to neither of thē. Which must needs shew that Papists in their greatest matters doe either proceede idly, or else of purpose they do bodge with their folowers, citīg one for two, as if a man should saye that in Pompeyes time ooLuc: lib: 3… Plut. in Cesar.Iulius broke vp p. 376the treasury at Rome, and tooke out much mony, and one Caesar about the same time broke open the same treasury, & therevpon should conclude, that therfore the Treasury was twise forcibly entred into, when lulius Caesar was al but one man. What Luther spake, was not against a Father but a counterfeit, not against Dionysius Areopagita, but against some meane fellowe shrowding himselfe vnderunder his name. In K. Henry the 7. time, a man might wel hauehave taunted ppHolinshed in Henri. 7.Perkin Warbeck, & yet not hauehave offended against the roial bloud in the children of K. Edwarde the 4. And the same is to be said for Causaeus, who is to be imagined not to say ought against true Dionysius, but against that doater who vsurpeth that name. Now howe shameful a matter is it for you to bring in these as railing against the Doctors, whē by distinguishing this false one frō those who be right, they do coū tenāce the true as much as they discoūtenāce the fained. He who saith that false mony is but brasse or copper, doth not speak evil of the kings lawful & wartantable coine. Your first fault against the Magdeburgenses, is taken out of the second qqCap. 10.Century, where being ex instituto, to giuegive their censure on the writers of that age, they yeeld vntounto thē al their due cōmendation, of zeale in Gods cause, of diligēce in preaching & writing, of fortitude in oppugning heresies, of enduring martyrdome. They shew also to what points of religiō they do speake, & taking on thē to shew what is amisse in divers of thē, they vse these words, As that the Epistles of Ignatius hauehave in thē some things which do seeme to incline to deformed blemishes. You might hauehave marked that before that speech they hauehave doubted of the credit & authority of some of those Epistles, whither they properly belong to Ignatius or no. So in Papias they say there was naevus, a blemish, also that Clemens Alexandrinus, & Athenagoras had their blemishes. And so of Iustinus Martyr. What word can be more gently spoken then to say they had their blemishes, the truth being so, & in such sort as no Papist can excuse it. For that I may say nothing of divers things foūd in thē, which with you cā be no lesse thē disputable; but with vsus are reputed no sound doctrine; neither of some other plaine errours, it is apparant that divers of thē, as Papias, & Iustinus Martyr, did hold the Millinary heresie, & for the same are taxed by the Century p. 377writers. That which you mētiō of trofling tales, if you apply it to thē, is worthy to be laughed at: for they hauehave no word of anie such matter in all that Chapter, vnlesse you take it out of their narration concerning Phocas, of whō they say, that they passe oversome things reported by rrLib: 10:Vincentius inspeculo, because they seeme to be fables. And what doth this detract frō the Fathers, among whō I trust, you put not Vincentius: & Phocas did vvrite nothing for ought that wee finde. And it is not impossible that such a Legendary felow as Vincentius is, may tel a tale of S. Hierom, S. Ambros, or S. Austē, & yet the reputatiō of these Doctors be among learned men never the worse. Of Ireneus the Magdeburgenses say most mildly that he hath certaine inconvenient opinions as stubble, & they cite this for one, which I beleeue no sober Papist will hastily mainetaine, that Christ was baptized at thirty yeares of age, preached at fortye, and vvas crucified at fiftye. And that hee helde the errour of the Chiliasts or Millenaries.

6 The secōd place which you cite out of the ssCent: 2: 5:Centuries deserveth a whoop for there is not one word against any Father, but to cōmend thē, for writing against the Valētinians, Gnostiks, Matcionites, Montanists & such like other heretikes. And to the opiniōs of these heretical sects they giuegive y^e titles of mōsters, portēts, doatings, & such other, as they wel merited. NOW if you of your goodnes wil take these heretiks for Fathers, the Centuriatours speake indeede hardly of such Fathers, for the which, wise men will not blame thē: but if you apply their cēsure cōcerning heretiks to be a railing on the Fathers whō they rather extol, this is such egregi ous ignotance or blindnes or malice, as can scant be cōceived by me, & can never be excused by you. Like to this is your quoting of Calvins Institutions, where you name not the booke, which intendeth that you never sawe him nor reade him. In his foure books there is not any thirteenth Chapter, which hath Paragraphes or Numbers 29. but only the first booke. And there is nothing touching this matter, this excepted, ssCal. Instit: Lib: 1: c. 13: numer: 29:That nothing is more vnsaverye then those fonde trifles, vvhichwhich are put out vnderunder the name of Ignatius. Hee yeeldeth his reason for his wordes. And this is not to revile Ignatius, but to reiecte leaden and copper p. 378stuffe, which would gladly be shrowded vnderunder his winge. And if this be to revile the Fathers, almost all both Protestants and Papists, who hauehave taken any paines to revise and publish the Doctours, or to make any Annotations on their writings, doe revile them, for they shewe that many things are crept in among their true workes, which are not worthy to goe vnderunder their names. As for Causaeus, I cannot yet by any search get sight of the booke, but wee may iudge by that formerly obiected against him concerning Dionysius, that if we had the booke, your cavil did containe no great matter in truth. And by Calvine and the Century writers before named, we plentifully finde, that you make no cō science to abuse and mis-report any mans words, so that thereby you may make some shew with your credulous followers. But if it were so that Causaeus a private man, and of no great reckoning for ought that I have heard, had saide some-thing which coulde not be iustified, the single cōceit of this one mā is not to be held for the iudgement of al the reformed Churches. That which you alleage from Master … Beza is a manifest depravation of yours; Beza in Act. cap. 23Acts 23for you make that to bee directly and absolutely spoken which is vttered conditionally. If that should bee true in Hierome saieth he, which Erasmus vponupon this place hath set downe, he shoulde not only wrong Saint Paule, but should be blasphemous against Christ. He assigneth this for his reason, because hee did search for some take of imperfect piety in Christ. Now who doth doubt but to labour to finde a hole in our Saviours behaviour, and to vvitnesse of him that any part of sanctitie in him vvas vnperfect, is nothing lesse then blasphemy: … Blasphemy yet beeing taken … Mat. 12. 31Matt 12:31not for the sinne against the holy Ghost, but for that kinde of evill speaking or detracting which by the mercy of God may bee forgiven. The matter then is, that the collection which Erasmus made vponupon the wordes of Hierome, is too hard, and not the illation which Beza, bringeth in ther-vponupon. If Erasmus mistook Hierome or strained him too farre, Beza hath nothing to say against Hierome. Thus some of your accusations are for ought that I can finde meerely forged and fained, by you; some other things are aggravated and made worse then they be; some iust censures vponupon counterfeits are vrged by you as if they were invectiues p. 379against their true works, some speeches against one apparantly erroneous doctrine is construed of you, as if it were vttered against all that the Doctors hauehave wrote; the taxing of one treatise or of some one sentence therein, is traduced as if it vvere the reiecting of all. Yet when all is done, he is a simple Reader that cannot see, that as your suggestions are partiall and slaunderous, so our vsage to the Fathers of the Church is such, as to giuegive them their full right. In token whereof it were easie to shewe in the writings of our men, many high praises and commendations given by them, to Hierom, to Chrysostome, to Augustine & the rest.

T. HILL.

FOr they who cannot endure certaine set times to fast in, no marveile though they revile Saint Basile, Saint Gregory Nazianzen, S. Leo, S. Chrysostome which wrote such notable Sermons of Lent, and of other fasting dayes thē vsed, as they are now in the Catholike Church.

G. ABBOT.

7 YOV hauehave given vsus the rule before; that we revile the Fathers: novve vvee shall hauehave the reason annexed to the rule. The Fathers write notable Sermons concerning Lent and other fasting daies as they are nowe vsed; and wee cannot endure such fastes, therefore we hate the Fathers writing of that argument. I vvoulde you coulde learne to hate vntruth, and then your eies would bee so opened, that you should see little of this which you write to bee true. Hovve prooue you that the Doctors speake of Lent and fasting daies as you now vse them? You name vsus first Saint Basile, in whome I finde onelyonly two Sermons concerning fasting. The xxSerm. de Ieiunio.former of them is in commendation of abstinence, howe good it is for the soule, howe healthfull to the body. And there is not one worde in it, to which vvee doe not assent, giving due commendation therevnto. His second Sermon doth beare a title which seemeth more to make for you, yyDeieiunio pridie diei Cinerum.Of the fast the day before the day of Ashes, which implyeth p. 380that then they kept a day of ashes, as now you keepe Ashewednesday. I will not heere discusse whether the solemne vse of ashes was so auncient or no: the contrary wherof directly appeereth out of Polydore Virgil, … saying that Gregory who came two hundred yeeres after, first appointed Lent to begin on the … De inventorib. rerū, Lib. 6. 3.Wednesday, and added diverse solemnities vntounto it, as by name the taking of ashes, where-withall this is said, Remember man that thou art ashes, and …to ashes thou shalt returne againe. Hence first the title of the Sermon may very well be supposed to be crept in by some later meanes. Secōdly if you wil allow it, then your Shrove-Tuesday must be a fasting day, which the Romanists Carnevall may not admit. Thirdly if you had looked into that Sermon it selfe, you might hauehave found that more then once, Basile speaketh of a fast onelyonly for five daies, & no more; which being to be kept no lōger, vtterly overthroweth your positiō, that in those times Lent and fasting daies were observed as now they be. You hauehave hard happe Doctour Hill to trippe vp your owne heeles. In Gregory Nazianzen there is so little concerning fasting, as that scāt any point in Divinity is lesse touched by him then that. In all his works I find nothing purposely of that argument, but that ^a once he doth excuse himselfe, that for a whole Lent he had bin withdrawne aaDe quadrage…. …eiunij silentio.to his private Meditations, and not preached publikely to his congregation. Out of which there is nothing to be wonne but this, that a Lent in one sorte or other was kepte in his time, which you need not trouble your selfe to prove; for we do yeeld it. As for Chrysostome, he hath three or foure Sermons where he speaketh of fasting, how requisite it is, and that aboue all matters men in their abstinence should fast frō sinne, which doctrine wee also publish. OnelyOnly Ad bbSerm. 72: & 73.Populum Antiochenum he hath two Sermons which mention Lent kepte among them, but particularly in what māner of abstinēce, he speaketh not. And what maketh this against vsus, whom you wrongfully charge to endure no sette times of abstaining? Leo hath many Sermons cōcerning fasting, whereof ccDe ieiunio d…imi mesin,eight are made touching a fast kept in the 10. monethmonth in winter when all fruites were quite brought in: at which time then they vsed to give God thankes for the same. In these I find much cōmendation of fasting & almes, with exhortation therevnto. p. 381Also frequent mention of fasting on the Wednesdaies & Fridaies, & remembring them to watch on the Saterdotes Lastly that there were ddSerm. …:4. times of abstinence in the yeere celebrated, Lent in the Spring, one for Somer at Whitsontide, another for Autumne in the seventh monethmonth, a fourth for Winter in the tēth monethmonth. He hath eeDe quadragesima12. Sermons concerning Lent, wherin he often mentioneth how that time consisted of 4…. daies, that it was a time of preparatiō against the feast of Easter: & that therin men ought as wel to abstaine frō sin, as to fast frō foode. And ffDe ieiunio pēcostes.4. Sermons I find in him touching a fast after Whitsons, that if any errour by intemperance be committed in the feast, it may be expelled by the sobriety of a fast. Last of all hee hath ggDe ieiunio septim… mensis.9. Sermons touching a fast yeerely celebrated in the seventh monethmonth, where it appeereth that their abstinēce was on the Wednesdaies & F… daies, as also it was in that other after Pē … ost; the remebrāce of which 4. t…es by him mētioned our Church doth yet keep. But in al these his Sermōs, there is not somuch as one word of distinctiō or dierēce of meats, that flwh was to be refused, & fishe to be fedde on; but that there shold be an abstinence in general. In one place I observe that thus hee saith, hhDe ieiunio Pentecost. Ser…. 14.Every creature of God is good, & there is nothing to be …fused vvhichwhich is received with giving of thankes. But we are not created to this and, that with foule & shamelesse greedinesse we should desire all the plenties of the world, as if that which is lawfull to be taken, might not be lawfull to bee omitted. Heere is no difference, of anye of Gods creatures which are sitte for foode, but one as vvell as another may bee lavvfully vsed of him vvho mindeth at all to eate. So that in a vvord amongest all these Fathers vvhom you bring as crossing our courses, heere is nothing which toucheth vsus, but rather maketh against you.

8. But to the ende that you and as many as vvill, may bee satisfied vvhat vvee doe in this behalfe, first vvee doe teach that fasting and abstinence not for or vvith superstition, but vvith faith and knowledge is necessarie for Christian men. ii2. Sam. 12. 16.2 Sam 12:16David fasting prayed for the life of the childe vvhichwhich vvas borne in adulterie. VVhen the enemies invaded his Kingdome, kk2. Chron. 20. 32 Chr 20:3Iosaphat commaunded a publike fast to bee proclaimed. VVhat shoulde I speake of llEzr: 8. 21.Ezra vppon occasion doing the like, and p. 382the king of mmIon. 3. 7:Jonah 3:7Ninive at the preaching of Ionas, nnIoel. 1: 14: cap. 2. 15.Joel 1:14Ioel prescribeth this to bee the meanes to appease the Lord in the midst of his indignation. And in the new Testament wee heare of it as practised by ooMat. 4. 2.Matt 4:2Christ, and there are by ppCap: 6. 16.him also rules prescribed in vvhat sorte it shoulde bee done. For frequenting of it, qqLuk: 2: 37.Anna the old vertuous widow is commended, and so is rrAct. 10: 30Acts 10:30Cornelius. It is one of the weapons wherwith S. ss2. Cor: 6: 5Paul did fight against his spiritual enemies. Briefly, in casting out of Divels Christ ioineth fasting with praiers, & saith that there is one kind of ss… Mat. 17: 21Matt 17:21spirits, which cannot be eiected without those two. We adde to these Scriptures the testimonies of ancient writers, as that of tt… De ieinnio Christi.Cyprian, By fastings the sinke of vices is dryed vp, wentonnessa is abated, concupiscences do waxe faint, pleasures goe away as fugitiues. And that of … Chrysostome, That as lighter ships doe passe the Sea more swiftly, but those … Hom. 1. in Genesim.which are over-burdened with great waight are drowned, so fasting making the minde the lighter doth cause that it the more easily doth passethe sea of this life, and looketh into heaven and these things which are in heaven. As also that of uu… In psal. 42Austen, Wilt thou hauehave thy praier to fly vp vntounto God? make it two wings, fasting & almes. Secondly we do think that such as liue in these Northren parts, as Germany, England, Scotland, Denmarke & other toward the Pole Artike, cannot without overthrow of their bodies so long endure to abstain frō food as those may who dwel in a warmer climate. By the Antiperistafis of the cold aire about them, their inward heat is the greater, & their stomaks are the better, wherby more meat is digested, yea & more speedily concocted. Hence it is as … one observeth, that those of Afrike hold the Spanyards to be great eaters, the Spaniards …. li… 10. …. Scotic.thinke so of the French, the French obiect that fault to the English & Scots. Yet when they come to abide where wee liue, these in their feeding are nothing inferior to vsus, Italiās & French men while they hauehave a while remained in England, giuing scope liberally enough vntounto their stomaks. Heat thē by nature being in vsus, if we shold not hauehave cōpetent food, it wold so much the more be kindled, & so work vpō the body it selfe to cōsūe it & destroy it; that of seneca being verified, yyDe Ira lib: …9.Wāt of food enforceth heat, & burteth the bloud, & staieth the course of it in the veines being ill affected. It is not therfore for men of these Northren parts to emulate or vie p. 383with other of hote coūtries, who in this behalfe are able to indure that which is right strange to vsus. When S. Paule & his cōpanions were in fear of suffring … ship-wracke, it is saide that for 14. daies … Act: 27: 35they cōtinued fasting, receiving nothing. Vnderstād this nakedly as the words do ly, & then, as much must be attributed to the fear of death which amated thē, so not the least part thereof is to be imputed to the Climat, they then being in the mediterrā Sea, as low as the South of Sicely. Yet it may be taken also, that they did eat nothing, that is so litle as if it had bin nothing, no set meal or refreshing. aaAd Hellenium.Greg. Nazianzen goeth beyōd this, making mentiō of some, who for 20. whole daies & nights abstained frō meat, the truth wherof I leaue to the Readers cōsideratiō. Other examples of extraordinary abstinence may be brought, which cannot in any sort be equalled by the Northren natiōs, whose necessity requireth more frequent food. And this is one reason why Christians of these parts are not vrged to watch all night before great feasts, as in some places they did in the Primitiue Church, which even now I mencioned out of Leo, since the greater & fuller is their feed, the more apt men are to sleepe: frō the which if they should be broken & staid in the time of preparatiō to the solemnity, they wold be the more propense to it, at the solemnest acts thēselves, as of hearing the word or receiving the Sacrament, in which case bbAct. 20: 9…Acts 20:9Eurychus was at the preaching of Paul, & three ccMat: 26: 4…of the Apostles then whē they should hauehave bin very vigilāt, even at the time of Christs apprehension.

9 Thirdly since there is such a difference betweene Countries, as also it is manifest that there is between the cōplexions & cō stitutiōs of mē, some being strōger, some weaker, some laboring more, other by their calling sitting within dore & stirring lesse, some apt by fasting to fal into sicknes, there is that discretiō & moderatiō to be vsed in abstinence, that our bodies may be farthered in Gods service, & not so quelled, as that by sicknes wilfully but vnadvisedly procured, we be not able to glorifie God, & follow our vocation so as otherwise wee should. Thomas ddAquin: 2: 2 qu… 47: …, 1:Aquinas giveth the reasons and endes wherefore men should fast. One he saith is to make satisfaction for sins, which is but a Popish conceit of the Angelical Doctor, in as much as the only bloud of p. 386Christ hath that force with the Father. Another is to represse the concupiscence of the flesh: which indeede hath his vse, for as Tertullian telleth vsus, … Tentations vvhichwhich are …ned to fulnesse and … Baptis.…deratenesse of the bellie, are by abstinence crushed. The thirde is, that the minde may bee lifted more freelye to contemplate those things which are aboue. For the pulling downe of the body is the h…ysing vp of the soule, as Basile … saith, even as in a … In Isai 1…Isa 1ballance the lower that one scale doth goe, the higher doth the other mounte vp. All abstinence then which is to elevate the minde and to abate concupiscence is good: but that is not allowable, which destroyeth the substance in steede of the accident, and in steede of setting vp the soule, ladeth and cloggeth it with the incumbraunce of a wearyish and crased body, vvhichwhich leaneth resteth and lyeth … heavy on the soule the inhabitante … Seneca de …ra lib. 3. 9.thereof, as a rotten olde cottage, which is ready to fall vponupon the ovvner, if hee doe not supporte it. And how plentifully hauehave many of the Fathers given their auditours warning of this … If the enemie the Devel hhDe virgin.saith Athanasius doe suggest into thy minds great exercises of devation that thou maiest make thy bodie vveake and vnprofitable, doe thou contrary vvise looke that thy fasting hauehave measure in it. Heere Athanasius holdeth those motions to come from the Devill. iiAd probā Epistol. 3.Fulgentius prescribeth what we should doe, … our fasting there is such a temper to bee vsed, that neither fulnesse doe set vp the bodie, nor …oderate abstinence doe vveaken it. Saint Augustine …tch, that wise men in the … Church doe brotherly … De mori … Eccles Cathol. li. 1 c. 33.water such as foolishlie shlie refuse to drinke vvine, that they shoulde not by their vaine superstition be sonner weake in their bodies, then holy … their soules. The same reason is for all …ndiscreete abstinence, from any other kinde of foode, so that we bee hurt by it. But in this matter none goe farther then Saint Basile, and Saint Bernarde. The one of whō saith thus, … I dot not so beate my bodie, that I weare … …fil de ve … virginit.it out with immoderate woundes, and make it … v…profitable to service, but this is the only course of chastising the bodie that I subiect it to service and doe rightly compell it to abo… the master. But he who by … of … doeth so subdue his servant, that hee is not onelyonly made vnprofitable to the service of his master, but that he is not able to … himselfe, what hath hee … …lse but made himselfe the … of his serva…t? p. 387For it must needes be that the bodie being now made vnable to serue, and by weakenesse growing sicke, his maister on the other side must serue him, while … one amated he is ever busie about the curing of the others infirmitte. The other thus, mmBernard. ad fratres de monte Dei.Watching, fasting and such like, doe not binder but helpe, if they be done with the order of discretion. Which if they bee so done with the fault of indescretion, that either by the spirit fainting or the body growing sicke spirituall things be hindered, hee who is so, hath taken away from his body the effecting of a good worke from his spirite affection to it, from his neighbour an example, frō God honor: he is sacrilegious & gilty of all these thinges towards God. Not that according to the meaning of the Apostle, even this doth not seeme the duetie of a man, and it be not decent and iust, that the head should once ake in the service of God, which formerly hath oftētimes even to aking labored in the vanity of the world: or that the belly should be hungry even to croping, which hath often times beene filled even to vomiting, but a measure in all things is to be had: the body is sometimes tobe afflicted, but not to be worne out. I shut vp this point with that of Hierome, nnEpistol: …:Impose vponupon thy selfe such a measure of fasting as thou art able to beare. And againe, ooEpistol. 10Small store of meate, and a belly which is ever hungry is preferred before fasts of three daies togither.

10 Fourthly to put a religious difference betweene meates, as that Christians some times may feed on fish and not on flesh, is Antichristian and vniustifiable superstition. Those who teach this difference are within the compasse of S. Pauls prophecy calling it a doctrine of Devils, when pp1. Tim. 4. 31 Tim 4:3men forbid to mary and to abstain from meates, which God hath created to be received with thanks-giving. The qqIbidem.Rhemists would shift this place by applying it to the Manichees, and some other olde heretikes, and by telling vsus that the Church of Rome holdeth all meates cleane by Gods creatiō: but these are simple evasions, for doth the example of those ancient heretikes any way preiudicate, but that there may bee such again now in the world, as at this time there be Arrians, & as you embrace Pelagianisme a fresh; and is it not more likely to be vnderstood of you then of them, since they were more thē twelue hundred years agone, & the prophecie is that such should come in the latter times: and in those we now doe liue. And whereas it is confessed that you holde them not vncleane by Gods creation; p. 388that maketh against you, since you by your constitutions dare to repute that polluted, which God hath sāctified & made cleane. rrTit. 1: 15:Titus 1:15Unto the pure all things are pure. It is your inhibitiō which presumeth to make that vnlawful, which the creatour did not so make, and this is iniurious to Gods creation. And yet I must tell you that there is one of yours who writing of this argument, doth yeeld thereason of your prohibition of fleshe and not of fishe, on fasting daies, to bee from the creatures themselves made by the Almighty, even Durandus who teacheth it to bee, because God did not at the first curse the waters, ssLib. 6… cup. detalijs ie. …ijs.In as much as remission of sinnes should be by the water of Baptisme for this element is most worthy, which washeth away filthinesse, and vponupon which the Lords spirite was mooved before the making of the world. But hee cursed the earth in the workes of man, and hence it is that in fasting it is not lawfull to eate ante kinde of flesh which liveth on the earth as foure-footed beastes and birdes &c. Neither can any Papist yeelde a better reason then this, why in their fastes fishe shoulde bee eaten of, and that vvith greedinesse, as they permitte leave to themselves to doe. VVhere I appeale to the consciences'not onelyonly of all other vvho doe knowe them, but even of our Romanistes themselves, vvhether the ordinary keeping of fishe-dayes amonge such of them as be of ability, bee according to the true nature of a fast, to pull downe the flesh, or rather to inflame it. For is it not most certaine which one ssGentilet: in exam: Cōc: T…d cap: 5:saith, that howsoever the praiers of Papists be leane, yet their fasts be fat. May not a mā more delicately fast with one of thē, thē feast with another person? Is there any creature belonging to diet, wherin more luxury may be then in fish, the old ttAthen. lib. …: 3: & l 8. 6:Philoxenus, Apitius, Lucullus, & al the renoūed bellygodded gluttons hasting to such refections, & fishe of all other provisions being bought at inestimable prices, as were easy to shew out of Pliny, Atheneus, & other both old & new writers. Fy therfore vponupon such odious hypocrisy, which thinketh to honour God with such a mockery, as that their abstinence may bee the largest feeding, and their fasting vvith a belly full of the most sumptuous fishe, besides wine and a thousand sortes of iunkets, vvhichwhich superfluity and wanton curiosity doe yeelde, to make vp Romanishe mortification. UUhat doth it profire saith Saint p. 389… Hierome not to eate oile, and yet to seeke out certaine curious and … Epistol: 2:hardlye gotten meates, as figges, pepper, nuttes, dates, fine cakes, honye, pestakes. And such abstinence as this doth Saint uuDe moribus Manich. lib. 2: 13:Austen condemne in the Manichees, who would touch no fleshe, and yet did feede on all the dainties that arte or witte coulde affoorde. His iudgement is that the moderate eating of a peece of bacon, or some other plaine fleshe, is not so luxurious as that their abstinence. Our doctrine in this behalfe is, that xxMatth: 15: 11.it which goeth into the mouth defileth not a man, but that vvhichwhich commeth out of the mouth defileth a man. And yyRom: 14. 17:The kingdome of GOD is not meate and drinke, And … it is good that the hearte bee stablished with grace, and not vvith meates, vvhichwhich hauehave not profited them, that Hebr: 13 9hauehave beene occupied therein. To these thinges the auncient Fathers doe agree, as Tertullian, aaDe cibis ludaicis:GOD taketh pleasure onelyonly in our faith, onelyonly in our innoceney, onelyonly in our truth, onelyonly in our vertues, which dwell not in the belly but in the minde, & vvhichwhich the feare of God and awe to heavē do get vntounto vsus, not earthly meat. And to this agreeth S. Austen, bbDe civit: Dei: l 16. 37:Wee learne in eating that no man is to bee blamed, for the kinde of meate; but for the immodest greedinesse. Yet withall we adde, that for civil order and the common wealthes sake, for the sparing of the provision at Land, for spēding of that which cōmeth frō the Sea, for the incouragmēt of fisher…mē, & for farther maintenāce & imploiment of navigation, on such daies as by positive lawes be appointed, wee make & ought to make a difference of our diet, keeping such times as fish-daies, by which name they are more properly called, thē to be termed fasting daies: This we do for civil order & obedience, & not for that which may be termed directly an immediate acte of religion; for we condemne the Romish Church for embracing that opinion. Although indeede the wiser sort of that packe do hold this to bee but a small matter of religion, and rather in their owne minds repute it a devise politickely to keepe people in awe, or a tricke if neede bee to get good store of mony when they lift to dispence, as may bee seene by that of ccGenebrard. l. 4: chronogr:Clement the 6 who proclaiming a Croisado against the Turkes (in truth to inrich himselfe after the fashion of the Popes) gave every one who would pay for it, a free liberty to eate egges and white meate, on the Fridaies and every fasting p. 390day, Lent excepted. This did the Arch-bishops of Triers and Colein obtaine for their Dioceses for ever; but the Arch-bishop of Mentz refusing to contribute so much mony as was required, itlyeth on his Diocese to this day, that they may not eate egges or other white meates on the fasting daies, as in the other tvvo Bishops lurisdictions it is permitted. How much happier did the coine make the one of these, then the other? But when his Holinesse list, he can goe farther then this, as Pope Leo the 10. did, when ddIoh: Fox. in Eccles: Histor:Cromwel went to renue the Pardons of Boston. For there among many other favours one was, that it shold be lawful for the brethren of the Fraternity at Boston, to eate milke, egges, butter on forbidden daies, yea in Lent it selfe; yea fleshe also by the advise of a ghostly father and a Physitian, and all this without scruple of conscience. So that if the gentle Pope list, (vvho wil knowe vponupon what tearmes he parteth with his dispensation) the thing is no sin; which some of the wiser Pseudo-Catholikes have smelled out as we may imagine, when so freely in Rome it selfe & in Paris, some of that Balaamitical cōgregation make no cōsciēce so that it be secretly done, to feed some or the greatest part of Lent on flesh, as diverse of our traveilers do constantly report. And we hauehave no smal store of these in England too, which in their harte louelove his Holinesse well, but yet will not part vvith their fleshe on fishe daies for his sake. Some bee vviser then some.

11 Fifthly we doe not finde that any set daies of fasting vvere appointed by Christ or his Apostles, and the Popish daies differ somewhat at this time from those of the Primitive Church, so that they hauehave neither warrant from GODS vvorde, nor yet from the auncient. Diverse of those whome they call their Ladies Eves, were not so much as heard of long agone. Fridaie and Saterday are nowe the ordinary daies of abstinence, and VVednesday is almost quite discontinewed saving in some few places, and on some fewe set times. Some of the olde Church hearde of Friday, and VVednesday…, and that not onelyonly foure times in the yeere as you heard before out of Leo, but otherwise also: yet of Saterday no worde. VVee have saith eeHomil: 10: in …tic.Origene the fourth and sixth dayes of the vveeeke, vvherein vvee doe solemnely p. 391fast, This was the Wednesday and Friday; the first in computation beeing our Sabaoth or Sunday. ffHeres: 75.Epiphanius hath as much, who is he in all the world, which assenteth not that on the fourth day, and the day before the Sabaoth (he meaneth the Iewes Sabaoth vvhichwhich was Saterday) a fast is decreed in the Church? And if we must also bring forth the Constitution of the Apostles, how they did there decree, that on the fourth day & that before the Sabaoth, there should bee fasting everis where, the Pētecost excepted &c. And in another ggIn conclusion. liber cōtt. heres.place hee hath, That the fasts were so delivered by the Apostles of Christ. Thus some of the most auncient kepte them in a forme differing from that of these moderne times. VVhere also you may observe that it was the fashion of those times, to attribute to the Apostles all thinges for which themselues were earnest, if they had beene so derived to them from their predecessours, that they vvell knevve not the first erecter or inventer of them, vvhichwhich before the ende of this Chapter vvill bee more manifested. But for this present, Saint Augustine vvho lived after Epiphanius, and for his iudicious labours vvas inferiour to none of the vvorthiest Fathers of the Church, vppon good advise speaketh thus, hhEpist: 8…If you aske my opinion in this matter, I revolving it in my minde doe see that in the vvritinges of the Evangelistes and Apostles, and in all, that vvhichwhich is called the Nevve Testamente fasting is commaunded. But vppon vvhaat dayes vvee ought not to fast, and on vvhat dates vve should, I doe not see it defined by the precept of the Lord or his Apostles. If Saint Augustine had ever heard of any authenticall Constitution from the Apostles, heere had beene a good time to have mentioned it. And so it had beene for Saint Chrysostome, when hee teacheth his hearers, that God had lefte virginity & fasting not as matters imposed on men by necessity, but arbitrary and at their owne choice. His wordes are these, iiIn 1… ad Corint: Homil. 9:Thou canst not fast, nor exercise virginity. But thou maiest of thou wilts, and those vvho can, doe accuse vsus. Yet notwithstanding God hath not beene so severe and rough to vsus, neither hath hee commaunded these thinges nor appointed them by l…vve, but hath leste them in the free-vvill and choice of the auditours. These Fathers then could not finde that any sette dayes of fasting vvere imposed by GOD, by the Apostles, or any other of sufficient povver, else they vvoulde not hauehave spoken as p. 392they did. And among the Canōs fathered on the Apostles as kkIn concilijs.Isidore citeth them, there is no such matter to be foūd, which maketh vsus bold vpō the warrant of all these, to thinke the speech of Epiphanius to be too large: and that so much the rather, because llVt supra.Origene who went long before him mentioneth the daies, but hath not one worde, that they were so ordered by the Apostles. These are therfore cōstitutiōs but of men, & they who came after thē especially in the Westerne Church, have varied frō them, as appeereth by rather accepting of Saterday then Wednesday, or by adding some where this last to the other, which sheweth that they thēselues imagined the ordināce not to be Apostolical. We then finding thē so at first erected & then varied by mē, do holde thē but to be humane cōstitutiōs, & for order & comelines sake we retaine them, as having received them from our Auncesters, concerning whom we are of that iudgment wherof every milde & sober man should be, that is to say, for the reverence which he beareth his predecessours, to professe that he willingly receiveth frō them, al things, which he doth not find either directly or by a consequent contrary to the word of God. This rule directeth vsus in these set daies for fishe, & we keepe them, but yet teaching our people in what sorte, for order & decency not for religion & superstition. For we dare not goe so farre as Papistes doe, but wee rather abominate their doctrine, when they make the keeping of fasting daies one of the mmHorae beatisi virginis. Vaux in Catechis:commaundements of their Church, and annexe vntounto them that the nnVaux Ibi.charitable keeping of these commaundementes bringeth everlasting life: but the contemning of these preceptes and such like of holy Church, bringeth everlasting damnation, & do so hardly pursue those who hauehave eaten forbidden meates on their fishe daies, as that nothing but life will make satisfaction for the same. According wherevnto a ooCentur: 16: in An. 1538.yong gentleman of Tholose was served in Fraunce, beeing burnt to ashes at Paris for eating fleshe, vvhen it was not permitted by the Romane Synagogue. The like examples I might produce of men so served in Scotland for the same cause, and England hath had some mightily molested there-about.

12 I might adde some other circumstances appertaining to fasting, as that there ought to bee no opinion of merite in it, p. 393since our best vvorkes are in themselves defective, and our very ppIsai: 64. 6.righteousnesse is but like to a menstruous cloath: but our request must bee that GOD vvill accepte the vvorke for his CHRISTES sake. Also that it bee not in hypocrisy, as theirs was whome CHRIST qqMat: 6: 161reprooved for making a shevv before men; or as that of the Pharisee vvas, vvho toulde the rrLuc: 18. 12.Lorde that hee fasted twise in the vveeke. Of such abstinence as this is, Saint Cyprian doth speake, ssDe ieiunio christl.Fasting doth oftentimes puffe vp a man, and doth driue him to pride and hypocrisie. Lastly there must bee as greate a care to abstaine from sinne as from meate. The Prophet ssCap 58: 6:Esay doth most significantly expresse this, Is not this the fasting vvhichwhich I hauehave chosen, to loose the bandes of vvickednesse, to take of the heavie burthens, and to let the oppressed goe free, and that yee breake everie yoake? And the Fathers of the Church doe frequently ingeminate it, as Origene, ttHomil. …ot in Levitic:Fast from all sinne, take no meate of malice, eate no dainties of pleasure. So Basile, uuIn Isai…:Not by and by in the forbearing of meate is that force of the minde, vvhere-with wee contend to perfection, sufficient of it selfe, vnlesse the soule doe stedfastly settle it selfe in all kinde of abstinence from those thinges vvhichwhich doe maintaine naughtinesse. For as a man consisteth of a bodie and a soule, so there are tvvo-folde meates &c. Saint Ambrose speaketh yet more plainely, uuSerm: 33:This is the vvill of the LORDE, that vvee shoulde fast from meates and also from sinnes. That vve shoulde enioyne our bodie abstinence, that vvee may the more vvith dravve our soules from vices: for a bodie vvhichwhich is dravvne drie is a bridle to a luxurious soule. I vvill shutte this vp vvith the speech of Gregorie, xxHomil. 16: in 40: Homilijs:To sanctifie a fast, is (ioyning other good thinges) to shevve an abstinence of the fleshe vvorthie of GOD. Let anger cease, let chiding bee allayed. For the fleshe is pulled downe in vaine, if the minde be not refrained from her evill pleasures. Thus you see what our Church holdeth concerning fasting: we allow, and commend it, and teach it as well as you; but wee iumpe not with you in your Iewishe superstitions: we attribute no sāctity to the differēce of meats, neither in religiō do we hold our selves tied to daies of true fasting, although by civil lawes which are to bee obeyed for conscience sake, we are tied to fish daies. God accepteth not the one foode before the other. True fasting is to receive no sustenāce or very p. 394little, as may be seene by the yyIonas 3: 7:Jonah 3:7Ninivits who did eate no food & drinke no water, & so will good Christians deale by themselues whē others do not know it, & on such daies as in their own hart they appropriate to that vse: for we hauehave a liberty so to do as Origen telleth vsus, A zzHomil: 10 in Levitic.Christian hath liberty to fast at any time, not with superstition of observation, but with the vertue of containing. And thus farre hauehave I followed you concerning fasting daies. Now some thing also touching Lent.

13 Your proposition is that Lent and fasting daies were kept in the time of the old Fathers as you keepe them now. I hauehave in part shewed the vanity of that assertiō for the one already. Now let vsus see for the other. When the first keeping of a Lent began it is hard to say. S. Hierome ascribeth the or daining therof to the Apostles. For aaEpisto. 54:he shewing the difference betweene the Orthodoxe and the Montanistes, amonge other matters saith that the Montanists yearely kept three Lents, but we doe fast one Lent in the whole yeare according to the tradition of the. Apostles. And this place doth bbDe inventorib. Rer. lib. 6. 3.Polydore Virgil cite out of Hierome, as referring the institution of Lent to the Apostles of Christ. But we are of opinion that in this matter Hierome is favourably to be vnderstoode, at calling that which was auncient, and the set beginning wherof vvas not distinctly knowne, by the name of an Apostolicall tradition: but no way being able to prooue, that by them it was ordained. The reasons of this our assertion are, first that vvee thinke it cannot bee found in any of the writers of the first three hundred yeares, vvho lived neerest to the dayes of the Apostles, that they decreed it. Origene speaketh of Lent, but goeth not so farre. Wee hauehave the daies of Lent consecrated vntounto fastings. Secondlye if the Apostles had ordained it, they woulde hauehave set Homil. 10 in, Levitic.downe some order and manner of it, in one vniformity to all the Church; but of that wee finde no steppe or marke amonge those of the Primitiue times, but exceeding greate disagreement many vvaies, as forth-vvith I shall declare. Thirdly vve finde some-what expresly to the contrary, and that not where this matter is touched obiter and slightlye as by Hierome, but vvhere the vvhole state of Lent is of purpose rifled and discussed, as shall presently be touched. Eusebius ddEccl hist: lib: 5. 24:speaking of the p. 395heate of Victor the Romane Bishoppe in excommunicating the Easterne Churches, for not iumping vvith the VVesterne in the circumstaunces of observing Easter, signifieth vvithal that the Bishoppes of the VVest did much dislike the attempte of Victor. Amongst other Ireneus vvho lived in Fraunce, writeth to Victor aboute it, vvhose vvordes Eusebius citeth thus: This controversio is not onelye of the date of Easter, but also of the order and manner of the Fast. For some doe thinke that they oughte to fast one daie, others two, diverse more, ma…te fortie, and they doe measure and make vp the daie, reckoning all the houres of the dait and night. And such varietye and difference of those vvho observed these fastes did not beginn… in our age, but longe before amonge our anncesters, vvho (as a man may gesse) did not strictly obserue the custome of them, vvho tither by a certaine simplicitis or by a private authoritye had determined some thing against future time. Thus the case of Lent stoode most vncertainelye, aboute two hundred yeares or lesse after Christes birth, and Ireneus saieth that this difference had beene also amonge their predecessours much before, so that hitherto wee may vvell collecte, that in the first Church there vvas no determinate vniforme certainety in the keeping of Lent; which doubtlesse had not beene vvanting, if the Apostles had been the erecters or founders thereof. … Socrates hath a longe tract, Eccl. Hist. lib: 5: 21:first concerning the keeping of Easter, which he plainely saith grewe to be diversly observed among men, by custome and not by any lavve from the Apostles, although, saith he, they of Asia say that they hauehave their tradition from Saint Iohn the Evangelist, and they of Rome saye they hauehave theirs from Saint Peter. But hee reiecteth both their sayinges, because they coulde bring no written testimonie of either of these, vvhichwhich is a good course for vsus also to examine traditions called Apostolicall by. From Easter he commeth to Lent, and therein sheweth, that even in his daies which was late, the manner of keeping of it was very different. Those saith hee who are at Rome doe fast three vveekes togither before Easter, the Saterdaie and the Sundaie beeing excepted. But they vvho dvvell in Illyria and all Greece; and they vvho dvvell at. Alexandria doe sixe vveekes before beginne those fastes vvhichwhich are kepte before Easter, and that time they call Lente. p. 396Some contrary to the custome of these, making seven weekes before that feast the beginning of their fasting, although they doe fast onelyonly fifteene daies, and that with some distaunce being put betweene, yet notwithstanding they call this Quadragesima or Lent. Wherevpon I doe not a little wonder how these though they differ in the number of the daies, yet all cal it by one name Quadragesima. Diverse doe giuegive diverse reasons of this name, devised of their owne heade. Moreover they doe not only differ in the number of the daies, but in their abstinence from meate they folow diverse courses. For some doe altogither abstaine from all kind of living creatures: some amonge living creatures doe eate only fishes, some togither with fish doe eate also birdes, and doe saie that they are bredde of the water, (as it is in Moises.) Some doe forbeare from fruits covered with hard shels, and from egges: others doe eate dry breade only, others not so much as that. There bee who when they hauehave fasted to the ninth houre doe vse various kindes of meates. In severall nations they fast severally, whereof there are almost infinite causes. And because no man can shewe any precepts concerning it set downe in writing, it is manifest that the Apostles therein did giuegive free power to everie man, minde and will, that each man should doe that which is good, beeing induced vntounto it neither by feare nor necessitie. This severall sort of fasting we doe know to be in the Churches.

14 Hence then iudge whither it came from the Apostles or no, and conferre these thinges with the place of Saint Augustine before mencioned, where hee speaketh in generall of fasting daies. And here Doctour Hill appeareth your great skil in antiquity, when cōtrary to so direct records, you avouch that your Lent and fasting daies are now kept as they were in the daies of the olde Fathers, which is as false as any thing possibly can bee, yea taking it of the very Church of Rome it selfe, which so late as Socrates lived, (that is at least till Theodosius the younger) kept it but three weekes, and that with some daies interrupted. And least that you should thinke that onelyonly Socrates reporteth this, heare ffSozom. l. 7 19.Sozomen in the same argument, who intreating of the severall customes of diverse Churches in many circumstaunces, saith thus of Lent, That Lent wherein the people fasteth, some doe reckon for sixe weekes of daies, as the Illyrians and those who are towarde the West, as also all Lybia and Egypt with them of Palestina: some for seven p. 397as they of Constantinople, and the nations lying about even to the Phaenicians; some seatteringly or interruptedly do fast three weekes in these sixe or seven: other doe continuately keepe the three weekes vvhichwhich immediately goe before Easter: some two weekes, as the followers of Monta…. Such varietye of opinions vvas there in the Primitiue Church. It is now the resolution of our Romanists that Lent is no Lent vnlesse it bee for forty daies, since it is an imitation of Christ vvho fasted ggMat: 4: 2:fortye daies and forty nights. But besides that there are other reasons assigned, why it should be for that space. hhAq…: 2: 2▪ q. 147. art. 5Aquinas out of Gregory as hee saith, yeeldeth vsus these, First because the vertue of the ten commaundementes is fulfilled by the foure bookes of the holie Gospell. And the number of ten being multiplyed by foure, ariseth to fortie. Or because in this mortall body we consist of the foure elementes, by the pleasures of which bodie vve goe against the commaundements of the Lord, which are received by the ten commaundements. Wherevpon it is fit that we should afflict that flesh fortie times. Or because so we striue to offer to God the tith of our daies. For since the yeare is continued for 365. daies, and we are afflicted for thirty six daies, which are to be fasted in the sixe weekes of the Lent, wee doe as it vvere yeelde to God the …the or tenth of our yeare. Here a man may knovve some reasons more then he knew before, why Lent consisteth of forty daies. But what adoe there was to hammer it to this set number, it is marveilous to beholde. There are certaine decrees which are put out in the names of some of the most auncient Bishops of Rome. Among these, iiDecretal. Epist Teles phori. Anastas. in vita Telesp.Telesphorus is made to write thus, We doe decree that seven full weekes before the holy Easter, all Cleargie men, that is such as are called into the lot of the Lorde shall fast from flesh, because as the life of Cleargie men shoulde bee different from the conversation of lay men, so also in their fasting there should bee a difference. Here then the Cleargy did fast fifty daies rather then forty, keeping no Shrouetide, but beginning Lent at Quinquagesima, and fasting the Sundaies as well as the rest. For so Polydore kkLib. 6. 3.Virgill collecteth vponupon the place, for fiftie daies they were to fast every daie, not one beeing omitted. And the words of the Decree doe cary so much, seven full weekes. But see what an inconvenience did arise herevpon. A supposed Constitution of the Apostles vvas broken by this. For some holde that on the p. 398Lordes daye or Sundaye no Christian might fast. VVhere once againe wee finde that matters vvhichwhich may most iustly bee doubted of, are called Constitutions or traditions Apostolical. For hovve came it about that the most auncient Fathers and the vvriter of the Epistle fathered on Telesphorus knevve not that there vvas such an ordinaunce? VVell, llHaeres. 70:Epiphanius speaking of fasting and mourning, saith it is an ordinance of the Apostles, Hee vvho afflicteth his soule on the LORDES daye, is accursed to GOD And in mmIn Conclus libri contra haereses.another place speaking as plainly, hee saith that there were no fastes vppon the LORDS dayes, and that therefore the Communion vvas celebrated in the morning, that aftervvardes they might eate that daye. Howe may that of Telesphorus and this supposed Apostolicall custome or Constitution stande togither? And yet nnPart: 1: Decret. Distinct. 4. 5.Gratian as late as hee vvrote, vvhichwhich is about foure hundred yeeres since vvas contented to cite that Decree of Telesphorus, as if it might hauehave his vse in our daies, either to know it or to keepe it.

15 Nowe did those vvho came after, like of this supposed ordinaunce of that Romane Arch-bishoppe? No such matter: For concerning the length of time the Councell of Orleans did take order by an expresse Canon, ooConcil. Aurelian: Canon: 20:This is decreed for all Priests, that before the solemnity of Easter, not Quinquagesima, but Quadragesima shall bee helde. Thus the time of the Clergyes Lent was abridged. That the time of fiftye daies was in vse before it may appeere by Saint ppSerm de Eb…tate.Basile mentioning that the fast of Lent vvas for seven vveekes. VVhere by the vvay this may bee noted that these vvoordes crosse that other speech cited by me before touching the fast onelyonly of five daies, and therefore one of the two Sermons may goe for a counterfeite. Touching fasting on the Sundaye, another Pope not long after is brought in to correct that. And this is qqDecret: Me…chadMelchiades, who in his Decretal Epistle is thus sette downe to write, The fast then of the Lordes daye and of Thursdaye no man must celebrate, that there may bee a true and vnfained difference, betvveene the fast of the Christians and the Gentiles: of these vvho doe beleeve truely, and of Infidels and Heretikes. Thus the Sundaye is leapte out of Lent: But heere is another trouble vvithall: for by this Decree it hath taken away p. 399the Thursday also, and so the dayes of Lente are shrewdely shrunke. In this distraction was the olde Church about this fast, no man almost being able distinctly to tell vvhat to make of it for the number of the dayes. They vvho harkened to Telesphorus had a Quinquagesima for a Quadragesima, fiftye or at least forty and nine dayes for fortye. They vvho beganne at Quadragesima Sunday and kepte all till Easter, had fortye and two daies to their Lente, and so as rrVbi supra.Polidore hath, for a good while it was kepte. They vvho began at Quadragesima, and slipte out the Sundayes had but thirty and sixe daies to vvhichwhich Aquinas alludeth as before is signified: And if after Melchiades they vvoulde cull out Thursdaies too, the fortye vvoulde bee but thirtye. Heere then at last to mende all, and to strike the finall stroke, commeth Gregory the Greate about sixe hundred yeeres after CHRIST, and because hee vvill have forty daies, and yet the Sundayes too put out of question to bee no fasting daies, hee added ssPoli. Virg: vt supra:foure daies more to Lent, that is to saye those which are before the Sunday tearmed Quadragesima, beginning Lent on that VVednesday vvhichwhich for the solemnity of ashes thē appointed by him to be vsed, is called Ashe-vvednesdey, from vvhichwhich time vntill Easter-day, if the Sundaies bee quite exempted from the number, there may bee reckoned fortye dayes. And that in Gregories time the Sundayes were so shut out, appeereth partely by that of himselfe testifying that ssHomil. 16: in 40: Homil:they did not celebrate fast on the LORDS daye in the Lente. So that vvee may saye of this Lent, as it vvas saide of Rome.

ttVirgil: Aeneid:…:Tantae molis erat Romanam condere gentem,

And yet there bee in England persons Popishly affected, vvho if they bee questioned vvithall, are not quite resolved in the pointe, whether the first foure daies after Shrovetide bee properly of Lent or no: vvhether that bee but a preparing and clensing vveeke, and vvhether good-Fridaye as it is called, and Easter Even bee to bee solemnized as a parte of a Lenten fast, or for some other reason, and so consequentlye vvhether the Sundaies bee not to bee fasted as naturall members and a true portion of the forty daies or no, and if they bee not to bee so p. 400fasted, then by what rule a man may not eate flesh vponupon them? Thus is Popery tyed togither with points. When therefore you right learned M. Doctour doe so clerke-like tell vsus that in the daies of Saint Basile, Saint Gregory Nazianzene, Saint Leo, S. Chrysostome, Lent and other fasting daies were vsed as they are nowe in the Catholike Church, are you not ashamed of your selfe, and do you not condemne either your owne ignorance for writing you knowe not what, or audaciousnesse for assevering so earnestly that which is so grossely false? But you doe well to vphold Popery by that meanes; the doctrine of Antichrist and Sathan by all kinde of lyes. If you cannot blush for your selfe, yet all modest Papists may blush for you, to find in what sort such companions as you are, make no conscience to say ought in that, which they hold to be their religion. I hauehave taken a little paines to instruct you concerning the first, ancient and most different observation of Lent: and I let you farther know, that for vniformity with other Christian Churches, and conformity to that vvhichwhich we receiued from those who so long agone went before vsus, wee keepe Lent, not superstitiously as you and yours doe, but according to the laws of our most Christian Magistrats, who cōmande an abstinence from flesh, not for any sanctity which is in such forbearing, but for other wise and civill reasons. And as herein our law alloweth a toleration to such as by necessity of sicknesse or otherwise are enforced to feed on flesh, so it convinceth all such as wilfully or carelessely doe transgresse without any other reason saving their owne greedy appetite. So that wee accounte such men offendours before God, albeit not simply and immediately for the eating of Gods creatures, yet consequentlye for dis-obeying the Edicts of godly Princes, to whom they are to yeeld obsequiousnes, and that for uuRom: 13: 5conscience sake. In this therfore you very discreetly accuse vsus of you cannot tell what, as you doe in that also which now followeth.

T. HILL.

AND they who be given to Lust, to Gluttony, to Ambition, to Covetousnesse and doe teach such doctrine as necessarily bringeth foorth p. 401such fruites, must needes contemne S. Basile, S. Chrysostome, S. Hierome and S. Austen, who hauehave written so excellently of the Order, Rule, and Vertues of Monkes.

G. ABBOT.

16 HEre now followeth a rable of wicked slaunders, to which you are so inured, that you bee not your selfe, vnlesse almost in every leafe you plentifully powre them out. You charge vsus here with many sinnes: and truth it is that in our Realme there are too many, as there will ever bee in the militant Church. But yet it is easie to bee iustified, that the Gospell hath so farre imprinted the feare of God in some, & the good laws established the feare of man in other, that no Popish Realme nor Countrey may for moral civill behaviour bee compared to England. Those brutish & beastly sensuall sins which are commonly winked at in Italy and in your Popes courte, are scant knowne among vsus, and here lesser sortes of luxury & wantonnesse lie subiect to both Ecclesiastical and temporall punishment. The filthy lubricity of many Papistes is growne to a Proverbe long since amongst vsus, and yet they would perswade men that they liue vnderunder the crosse & in persecution. Yea what may be supposed is done at liberty, (whereof I leaue the testification to a marginall note of M. uuQuodli. 2 Articul: 2:Watsons in his Quodlibets) vvhen your Priestes and Prisoners restrained at Wisbich are publikely in print questioned one by another, as about other disorders, so namely for xxManifest. ca. 1.whoredome. But of this more largely hereafter. For gluttony who ever exceeded your Pseudo-Catholikes on their fish daies, and double feasts, or your monkes the belly-gods of the world, the knights of Bacchus and Ceres, the sty-fed swine of Europe? This by-word was not for naught,

O monachi, vestri stomachi sunt amphora Bacchi,

Vos estis, Deus est testis, turpissima pestis,

As for ambition, all the earth cannot put downe the Cardinals of Rome, and the inferiour Prelates vnderunder them. VVhat tumultes were there wont to be about every Bishopricke or rich Abbay, two or three striving for it, and running or sending to Rome, to p. 402see whither could out-bribe other. No man is more plentiful in this argument then yyIn Hen: 3:Mathew Paris. What endlesse ambition is there and hath there beene in aspiring to the Papacy, Kings & Princes being set one against another for Popes causes, and in the time of Antipapes a great part of Christendome beeing vp in armes, some on the one side, & some on another. It is not forgotten howe in Englande the Arch-bishops of Canterbury and Yorke hauehave striven for priority, their crosses which rather should hauehave taught them humility iutting each with other, and the bearers of them being ready to iustle each other from the wal, in the presence of the Cleargy and Nobilitie of the Realme. Nay if there were nothing else to shevve the ambition of the Romanists, yet let vsus not novve bee blinde at home, where in zzQuodl. 2: 7printed bookes, there hath beene question made betweene the Iesuites and secular Priestes concerning precedence in going, and betweene Priestes and other of their religion for places at table, so vnfitly and immodestly, as woulde rather beseeme vaine and weake-witted women, then men who professe themselues to bee of learning and gravitye, besides the greatest tye of their Ecclesiasticall function. But every Papist doth well to imitate the Pope his holy Father, who setteth himselfe aboue all Kings and Emperours, and therefore they may doe sutably to goe before as many as they can, not in aaRom. 12: 10Rom 12:10giving but in taking honor. Yet Christ the best Master hath taught another lesson, bbMat: 11: 29Take my yoke on you, and learne of me, that I am humble and meeke. Lastly for covetousnesse, who ever on earth exceeded the Romish Synagoge, vvho by the manours and large possessions given them had almost devoured whole Europe; and by their Buls sent abroad, as also by their dispensations at home did shew themselues the most cunning Alchimistes in the worlde to turne in many places a little leade into a great deale of golde, which was fitly ccPremier Recucil fol 767.likened to the chaunge of Diomedes and Glaucus in Homere. Adde to this the infinite riches vvhichwhich they had by continuall Legacies, Vowes, Offrings and Giftes, whereof monuments may yet bee seene in Rome, Paris, Colein and other places, in their crosses, Images, shrines, and many other things of pure massie gold vvith plenty of precious stones; and as once might hauehave appeared in p. 403the treasures belonging to Thomas Becket at Cāterbury, which as ddPeregrin: Relig. ergoErasmus who saw them describeth them, did far surpasse the riches of many a king. To contract this matter, the story is vvell known how King eeIo Fox. in Richard. 1.Richard the first bestowed the three daughters in mariage whom one Fulco put him in minde of, I meane those dangerous daughters Pride, Covetousnesse and Luxurie. He placed Pride with the Templars, Avarice with the Cistertian Monkes, and Luxurye with the pompous Prelates of the Church. Such good opinion vvas in those dayes to bee carryed concerning the mortified persons of the Romishe Cleargye.

17 In this place I finde that you exceede your selfe, if possibly that might be. You set vp here to your selfe a ladder of vntruths, whereon you may by every rounde or steppe come higher and higher to the father of lyes. VVe are given to lust, gluttony, ambition, covetousnesse; that is your lowest step. Then, we teach doctrine which must necessaryly bring soorth such fruites. After this, wee contemne Saint Basile, Saint Chrysostome, Saint Hierome, Saint Augustine. Then to the ende that you maye beare the garlande from all your fellowes, generallye the doctrine of the aunient Fathers, is cleane contrarie to the doctrine of Protestantes. ff…ul secūdo de Ova…oreHanniball saw many doting olde men, but never such a one as Phormio. But I turne backe vntounto you. ggStaphyl. in Apolog.You hauehave long muttered that we teach a doctrin of liberty, and we set open the gate to all profanenes. Notwithstanding this is a slander of your own invētion, neither are you able to name one learned and approved Protestāt, who ever in his preaching or writīg could iustly be charged with any such matter. Only your spleene is against that point of faith in Christ, which while you labor to oppugne, you do wrong to vsus, but more to God, & to his Son our Saviour, the power of whose redēption you extenuat at your pleasure, to set vp your own merites. Whereas wee doe teach that the same faith when occasion is offred, doth hhGalat: 5. 6work by louelove, is seene in his fruits, & can no more be without a Christian cōversatiō, thē fire without heat, or water without moisture. This we hold: whereas cōtrarywise I appeale to the cōscience of your selfe, as also to the cōscience of every indifferently minded man, whither Popery be p. 404not the open gap to a gulfe of al vngodlines, when the absolution of a Preest shal be said to free a man frō hel; the Indulgēce of a Pope, the same person frō Purgatory; the pardon of such a one as cannot forgiue his own sinnes (for the iiRhemens. Thess. 2: 4:Pope himselfe confesseth to another Priest and is absolved by him) shall cleere a man from poysoning, murthering, whoring & all vncleannes; whē satisfactiōs to God-ward may be wrought & made for mēs trāsgressions. The infectiō of this & the like leprosies maketh Papists audacious to do any thing, & then let thē goe barefoote about the Ascensiō weeke, or whip thēselves on good-Friday, let thē go to Rome at a lubiley, or on Pilgrimage at other times, but especially let thē come to cōfessiō & have absolutiō, & they are as cleane from the gilt, as if they had never cōmitted any such facts. This confidence maketh the life of many of your false named Catholikes to be a cōtagious sinke of execrable lewdenes, no pen being able to paint out their filthines, which as elswhere it may be exemplified, so principally in Rome that singular cage of foule and vncleane birdes. I was once in Oxford present with two prisoners cōvicted of a murther, the one was named Parrhy, a kinsman of the great traitour Doctour Parrhy; the other was called Richardson. When this Parrhy after many villanies in England and beyond the seas, had finally as a robber murthered vponupon the way a drover carying with him good store of mony, & it much grieved his fellow Richardson thē being in cōpany, that Parrhy had slaine the mā, & Richardsons cōscience, as himselfe reported to me & other, could in no sorte be appeased about the fright & remorse therof, Parrhy bad him not dismay himselfe, but prepare as soone as he could to fly after him into Ireland (for thither indeede the principal murtherer was hastening) and from thence they would to Rome, where he had been with his vncle Doctor Parrhy before, and knewe the fashions of the place, & there hee vndertooke to get a pardon of his Holinesse, and all should be as wel as if it had never beene. This Parrhy tould mee that he had beene a Page to a Cardinal in Rome, an attendant on the Duke of Guize slaine by the commaundement of Henry the third of Fraunce, and of garde to the Duke of Parma, and therefore may bee well supposed to have knowne Popishe fashions. And p. 405of certainty he lived a… Romanist and so professed himselfe at the time of his execution. I could adde more examples of this nature shevving that Papistes vvant no incouragementes to sinne.

18 On the contrary part we simply and absolutely dehorte our people from all crimes, laying the iudgments of God before such as transgresse in the same. VVe lay vntounto them the texte of the Apostle that the kkGal. 5: 19:Gal 5:19vvorkes of the fleshe are adulterie, fornication, vncleannesse, vvantonnesse, Idolatrie, vvitchcraft…, hatred debate, emulations, vvrath, contentions, seditions, heresies, envy, murthers, drunkennesse, gluttony, and they who doe such thinges shall not inherite the kingdome of God. And that llHebr: 13▪ 4.Whoremongers and adulterers God will iudge. That, as mmDe ieiunio christi.Cyprian telleth vsus, Fornicatours and adulterers hauehave thee Sathan for their suggestour: they shall have thee for their tormentour: revenging flames shall burne both thee and them. Concerning gluttony wee put them in minde of Christs speech, nnLuc: 21:Take heede vntounto your selves least at any time your harte bee oppressed vvith surfetting and drunkennesse and cares of this life, and that daye came on you vn-avvares. And of that in Saint Paule, ooRom: 13: 13:Let vsus walke honestly as in the day, not in gluttony and drunkennesse, neither in chambering nor wantonnesse. To which may bee ioyned that of S. Ambrose, ppDe Noe & Arca c: 9.What is more vnseemely then evermore to bee attending to the belly, which when it is filled is to be emptied, & when it is emptied, is to be filled againe? Touching ambitiō, we stirre mē vp, that they should imitate the modesty of qqIohan: 1: 20:Iohn the Baptist, who tooke no honour to himselfe, but resigned it al to his master Christ. And the humility of S. Paul who avouched of himselfe & his felowes, tt^r1: Thes: 2: 6:Neither sought we praise of mē, neither of you, nor of others. But especially the meekenesse of Christ our blessed Lord, who being vrged by his kinsmē to shew some ssIoh: 7: 3:miraculous works so to make himselfe famous, refused, & would not cōdescēd to their humourous motion. And for the repressing of this sin, we cite that of S. Bernard, ssDe considerat: ad Eugen: lib. 3: 1:O ambitiō the very crosse of those who be ambitious, how doest thou torturing al, please al? Nothing doth vex more bitterly: nothing doth disquiet more troublesomly, & yet amōg wretched mē there is nothing more ordinary thē the exercises therof. Lastly for Covetousnes, we say with Christ, ttLuc: 12: ….Take heede and beware of covetousnesse, for though a man p. 406hauehave abundance, yet his life standeth not in his riches. And with Saint Paule, uu1. Tim: 6: 10.The love of mony is the roote of all evill, vvhichwhich vvhile some lusted after, they erred from the faith… and perced themselves through with many sorrowes. And wee thinke it not amisse to remember the covetous person of that in Saint Augustine, uuA…g. in Psal. 123:Ps 123Take with thee to hell that vvhichwhich thou hast gotten. VVhat vvilt thou does Thou hast gotten golde, thou hast lost thy faith. After a fevve daies thou departest out of this life. The golde vvhichwhich thou hast gotten vvith the losing of thy faith, thou ca…st not take with thee. Thy harte which is voide of faith goeth forth to paines, which if it had b…n full of faith, should have gone out to a crowne. These & the like doctrines out of the holy Scriptures & Fathers we do daily lay open to our hearers against these sins. Our Sermons and bookes are full of them: and on the other side we stirre them vp to chastity, to sobriety, to temperance, to humility, to bounty toward the poore, and therefore your reporte in this behalfe is a matter verie ordinarie vvith you and yours: but in the presence of God and men, a most malicious slaunder.

19 You hauehave bin bold with vsus already, making small spare and lesse conscience to laye vponupon vsus any vniust imputation, and the fowler, the more pleasing to you, and nowe forward you goe in the same, that is in your owne vaine. We must needs contemne S. Basile, S. Chrysostome, S. Hierome, and S. Augustine. Howe farre are we from despising them, the excellent lights of the Primitive Church, the noble instruments of Gods glory in their time, may be gathered from that which I have said before, frō our reading and studying of them, from the manifold printing & revising of them by men of our side, & that in diverse places, from our vsing of them in disputations, & our citing of them in the pulpit. Neverthelesse it is not to be expected that your malice should ever saye well. S. Basile wee reckon a famous Bishoppe of the East, xxGregor. Naz. orat. 30:brought vp at Athens, & so cōpleted with humane literature, the equal, love, & deere cōpanion of that Gregory Nazianzen, who for his high & mystical knowledge in Divinity was thought worthy to be called with an excellency Theologus: whose worke touching the yyBasil: Hex…merō.6. daies of the creatiō, seemed so admirable, that S. Ambrose was cōtented to imitate it, yea almost to make himselfe p. 407onelyonly a trāslatour of it. The golden streames of S. Chrysostomes eloquence wee hold wel neere incomparable, & his frequent similitudes & comparisons to be so familiar, & yet so significant and lively, that wee account him scant worthy the name of an eminent preacher to the people, who hath not bin conversant in his works. We thinke S. Hierome for his learning not vnworthy to bee called a wonder of the world: his vniversal knowledge, & especially in the sacred tongues, togither with his ponderous style are honorable among all vvho knovve good letters. Saint Augustine for his iudgement goeth beyond them all: his reading was great as most of al appeereth in zzDe civitate Dei,one tract of his, being the most noble of all his vvritings: his diligence, his zeale, and acutenesse against heretikes, have vvonne him everlasting prayse: and so doe vvee esteeme of his vvorkes, that we holde him much dis-furnished in the study of Divinity, especially for schoole-learning and grapling with an adversary, who is not wel acquainted with him. Such is the cōtempt that we cary to these reverend persons: nay if it were not for avoiding vnnecessary tediousnesse, vvee should much farther extoll their due-deserved commendation, VVhy then doe wee basely regard them? Because vvee bee given to lust and gluttony, and they have vvritten so excellently of the Order, Rule, and Vertues of Monkes. This hangeth wonderfull well togither. Doe all vvho are given to covetousnesse, ambition, gluttony, and lust, hate monkes and monkery, & al who hauehave prescribed good rules vntounto them? Then your Pope and cardinals, and all the whole sinful Courte of Rome must stand arraigned for that crime: for eche man of any vnderstanding knoweth howe they abound in those vices. And besides if precepts for Monkery bee so contrary to these sinnes, must not the practise of them in a Monkish life be much more remote from them? And vvas it never heard that Nunryes or Monasteries of women, hauehave had many younge bones of little children found in them, which came not thither vvithout lust: or that many Monkes were little better thē mishapen gorbellied monstrous Epicures, vvhichwhich arose not without gluttony: or that in the elections of their Priours, Abbots and Bishoppes, there vvas infinite competition, vvith all kinde p. 408of striving, banding and canvasing, which was not without ambition: or that some of their vowed men (especially that famous fellowe mentioned by aaDe moribus Germane.Aeneas Sylvius) have lefte great summes of money in secret behinde them, which were neither gotten nor kepte without avarice? Thus nothing can bee more certaine, then that men who louelove the sinnes which you name, may be favourers of Monkes, & the Monastical creatures hauehave & do commonly bath themselues in such noted crimes.

20 VVell, S. Basile hath written many things concerning Monkes. It may be questioned whether he hath or no for there is great doubte whether those bee his bookes vvherein most is contained touching that argument. But if we should allow you your desire, he hath no where saide more of that matter, then in a bbSerm: Quomodo ornaretur Monach:Sermon where he describeth the qualities of right mōkes, frō which qualities these late ones are very farre distant. And Saint ccIn 1: Tim: Homil: 14.Chrysostome sheweth how holy & religious the Monasteries in his time were, to the which if these later Cloister-mē had kept thē we should hauehave found lesse to be discōmended in thē. Howbeit Chrysostome did not so much admire thē, that hee thought their life to be the only meanes of perfection, or that sanctitie and the true service of God, was scant any where to bee found but in them, which some doting ones in these ages not longe since past, have laboured to insinuate into the mindes of men. But he spake thus freely to the contrary: ddIn Gen. Homil 43:where are they who sae that it is not possible, that a man living in the midst of a city should keepe vertue: but hee had neede of retyrednesse, and a certaine conversation amongst the mountaines, and that he who is over-seer of his owne house, and hath a wife and taketh care of children and servaunts cannot bee indued vvith vertue? Thus he supposed that men in a monastery might do well, and so might other also. S. Hierome who vppon some more then ordinary occasion with-drewe himselfe from Rome, and lived more privately in Palestina, grewe to be a eeInvita …ilarionis & saepè.hyperbolical commender of Heremites, monkes, and cloystered Virgins, which life he blazoneth so with his Rhetorical colours, that every man must confesse that his vvordes goe too farre if they be literally taken. And yet when diverse other were greedy to come from Rome to Hierusalem, that they might live there p. 409sequestred as hee did, he disliked it, and saide that ffEpist: 13:heaven gate did stand open as well to a man in Britaine as at Hierusalem. Then were there in England fewe or no Monasteries at all. As for S. Austen hee describeth the piety and exercises of auncient ggDe mo…ib. Eccle Cathol. lib: 1: 31:Monkes and Caenobites of both sexes, and writing vppon the Psalmes he saith, hhIn Ps. 99:Ps 99In that common life of brethren which is in a Monastery, great holy men being daily in hymnes, in prayers, in the prayses of God, doe live therevpon. They meddle much with reading. They labour with their owne handes: thence theymaintaine themselves: they aske not any thing covetously. Whatsoever is brought in vntounto them by godly brethren, they vse it with sufficiency & with charity. Nomā doth vsurpe to himselfe any thing, which anothermay not hauehave. All louelove themselves: all sustaine one another. And yet the same S. Austen was not so simple, but that hee spied vnderunder this habite of holinesse much woolvishnes in his time, as cannot be cōcealed whē he said thus, iiEpist. 137.I doe plainely confesse vntounto your charity, before our Lorde God who is a witnesse vponupon my soule, since I began to serve God, as I hardly have found better men then those vvhichwhich hauehave profited in monasteries, so I have not had triall of vvorse then those vvho have fallen in monasteries. And in his booke writen purposely cōcerning Monkes, hee describeth many monkes of his time to be kkDe opere Monachorum c: 28:nought, idle, wandring vp & downe, setting at sale the relikes of martyrs, if they vvere the relikes of martyrs. Notwithstanding our late Votaries do lay closer hold on S. Austen then on any one of the Fathers: for they give it out that he was the founder of the Augustine Friers, and that rabble would derive their petigree from him, as some of the both olde and late Cloisterers woulde drawe their descent from Elias and Iohn the Baptist, which llSozom: 1: 12:Sozomen mencioneth to hauehave beene talked of in his time. For this purpose they give out that Saint Austen went in his monkishe coole and attire, cleane contrary to that which is reported in his life by Possidonius vvho lived with him. His mmPossidons in vita Aug, cap: 22:apparrell and shooes and bedde-stuffe, vvere of a moderate and competent quality, neither to neate nor too verie abiect, bicause in these for the most parte men doe either vse insoleutlie to boast themselves, or to abiecte themselves by both, not seeking those thinges vvhichwhich are Iesus CHRISTES but their ovvne. But this blessed man as I saye kepte the meane, neither declining to the right hand nor p. 410to the lefts. Thus saith Possidonius, wherevpon Erasmus fitly asketh this question, nnObservat. in margineUUhere was thou the letherne girdle and the blacke coule? But besides this, they hauehave forged certaine ooAd fratres in eremo.books in the name of S. Augustine, as if he the Bishoppe of Hippon, had given orders and instructions to his Friers vnderunder him. But this is as like the worke of S. Austen, as an Owle is like an Eagle, or a Cuckow to a Nightingale, as the improbability of many things vvhichwhich are in it, the basenesse of the matter, the barbarousnesse of the stile, the foolish and shamelesse narrations, and many other thinges maye demonstrate to every one who hath but halfe an eie, or one graine of salt in him. Yet so must Popery bee peeced togither, with a faire title at the least although the stuffe be rotten.

21 Heere looke we backe a little to the ancient Monkes: and not any way curiously to trace their originall, were there not even almost in the very time of their first institution many absurdities and incongruous superstitions which did creepe in, every one by a voluntary will-worship adding what he thought good? Was not the great ppSozo. 1: 13Anthony who had so many followers, a man vtterly vnlearned, and did not he thinke even the least knovvledge a hinderance to his speculatiue devotion? Did not the Heremits shew great presumption, when being but simple persons diverse of them, they wilfully refused the society of men, & the fellowship of cōmunion of Saints, by their solitarynesse putting themselues more freely vpō Sathans temptations, by debarring their soules of the word preached, the Sacrament of the Lordes supper received, and the comfort of the Minister or any other Christian brother? Did not the too exquisite severity of qqLib: 3: 13:Eustathius the Monke (who is supposed to be the true authour of the book intituled foreign, & cōmonly reported to be S. Basiles, where so much is of the life & discipline of Monks) grow to absurd observations, and such as were quite disagreeing from the laws Ecclesiastical? There are reckoned vp many opinions of him & his scholers, which were condemned in a Councel at Gangrae, as that he disliked mariage, would not pray in their houses who were wedded, despised maryed Priests, thought rich men to be shut out frō heaven, detested those who eate flesh, and other such like monkish p. 411imaginations. Some women perswaded by him or his, leste their husbands, put on mens apparrel, and fell to adultery. These persons lived about the time of the fore-named Fathers, who in their bookes cōmended the good parts which were then exercised, & doubtles gaue those precepts which they did giuegive, to reforme the abuses. And as succeeding generations came on, did not the superstitious devises of Monks increase, as is to be seene in Evagrius? Some did shut themselues into little houses, rrEvagr: hist Eccl. l: 1: 21:Sir 50:1Sir 50:21which were so low & narrow, as that they could neither stand vpright in thē, nor ly otherwise then double. Some both men & women living in the wildernes did onelyonly cover their privities, & for the rest went naked both in the hottest & coldest wether. Some refusing all foode of men, did eate only the grasse of the ground, & would not endure the presence of any persons, but woulde run away and hide them in the rockes. Other counterfeyting themselues fooles laboured to bee without all passion. These woulde not refuse to goe into tavernes or brothel-houses: they would be in bathes with women, and as among men they lived as men, so among women they were as women. Yet did those ages so doate vponupon monkery, that even these were commended, and helde for holy men. Thus if wee take these olde lads in their best times, they had imperfections inough, but of the good qualities which were in any of them those vvho came after embraced but a few. OnelyOnly the ignorance of Anthony went almost currant through all: that was as good as hereditary to them. But the olde devoute service of God was of late turned into hypocrisie, fasting into perpetuall belly-cheere, scarcity and penury into aboundance and lordly possessions of landes, charity was converted into hart-burning and envie, humility into pride, sobriety into Venereous and Sodomitish lust: their piety was but formality, their idolatry was infinite. Thus it grewe forwarde by little and little, till it came to the height of vngodlinesse. Howe soone this beganne maye bee gathered by him vvho vvrote the treatise commonlye called Cyprians, De duplici martyrio, There vvee thus read, ssCypr. de dupl. mart.Not anie deserte place, sacke-cloath for a garment, pulse for meate, neither fasting nor lying on the bare grounde doe make a perfect monke: Under these covers lyeth hid sometimes a minde verie p. 412worldly, which is so discovered if they bee called to any Ecclesiasticall office. There you shall see some of them most easilie to bee overcome vvith delightes, more impatient of iniuries, more desirous of vengance then any other of the ordinarie people. What is the cause? Because they hauehave more exercised the body then the minde. This began betimes: but as they grew in yeares, so many of them grew in horrible wickednes. It is a long while since ssEccl. Hist. Ang: l: 4: 25Beda lived: yet in his Ecclesiasticall story he mencioneth that a Monastery called Colindiurbem was consumed with fire, for the lasciviousnes and wantonnes which was there founde in both men and women. So did God punish them. But in S. Bernards time a carnall kinde of behavior had over-growne almost all, which caused him earnestly & passionatly to complaine, ttBernard. in cena Domini cap: 3.How many monkes be there in S. Benedicts monastery, who do laugh when other men doe mourne; who reioice when other are sadde. In their bodie they are cloistered, in their mindes wanderers and never standing still. Slow to their reading, tardy to their praying, in the Church sleeping, in the refectory vvaking. For their long watchings grieving, but for their long bankets reioicing. This was the mortified life of many monkes in that holy mans daies. And how this was afterwarde amended in England, may bee testified by the survey, which by Visitation of the Kings Commissioners was taken vnderunder King Henry the eight of famous memory, when by othes of the religious persons themselues, much Sodomitry & other vncleannesse was detected, and afterwarde was published to the world by a printed booke, some notes wherof are to be seene in the French Apology of uuCap. 21:Henry Stephanus made in defence of Herodotus. Such small affinity had and hauehave your late monkes, with those of whom we read among the old writers. But for absurdities of doctrin, especially in commending themselues, they go beyond all those of auncient times, as I will instaunce in the Franciscanes, who maintaine these points which yet are disliked by some other Papists, and by some other excused or defended. I will cite them out of a great Papist and a Capuchine, Frier Gregory of Naples. … That the rule of S. Francis, is that life of Iesus Christ which himselfe observed in this world, & imposed on his In libris corrigēdis.Apostles to keepe, and caused to be written in the Gospels, and that whosoever doe contradict this rule of S. Francis, do contradict p. 413or impugne the Gospel of Christ, and if they persevere in it, are heretikes▪ That S. Frauncis is the Angell of whom it is said in the Apocalyps, I saw another Angell having the seale of the living God. That no man can bee damned who weareth the habite of S. Francis (that is to say, saith this favourable interpreter, who togither with the habite beareth workes appertaining to salvation) That once a yeare S. Francis descendeth to Purgatory, and draweth out from thence their soules who living were of his order, and leadeth them to Paradise (that is saith the interpreter Capuchine, he goeth not actually in his owne person, but by his vertue, in as much as hee intreateth the Maiestye of God for his brethren, & Gods clemency giveth him pardon for some souls.) That the order of S. Francis shal endure for ever. Thus they teach their Novices, bring vp their Friers and preach vntounto the people. There must needs be much vertue, goodnes, and mortification, where they speake so hypocritically for themselues, & so basely or blasphemously for Christ our Saviour.

T. HILL.

AND generally vvhereas the Doctrine of the auncient Fathers, is cleane contrary to the Doctrine of Protestants, no marveile though they be reiected by them as they ever hauehave beene of Heretikes. And although Iewell in his Sermon at Pauls Crosse most impudently challenged the Catholikes to bring any thing for certaine points of their Religion out of the Doctours of the first sixe hundred yeares, yet Laurence Humfrey Humfridus in vita lew▪ …lli.his pu… fellow confessed that he gaue, & granted to the Papists more then was meete and was to himselfe iniurious &c. and so hee confessed against his companion, that the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were on the Papists side, and consequently not on theirs.

G. ABBOT.

22 THis may be put in the Catalogue of your Transcendēt vntruthes, which keepe within no compasse: in which behalfe you are inferiour to no Papist that hath wrote without a vizarde. Your generally here standeth in steede of your olde and p. 414auncient All so much frequented by you. Then the Doctrine of the auncient Fathers is not only contrary but cleane contrary to the doctrine of Protestants. Or else you cānot tell. For if you were well opposed, I feare that scholer-like you hauehave read over but a fewe of those Fathers, and that causeth you to give both so bold & so blind a sentence. But it is inough for men no deeper in Popery then you are, to know the names of some of the Fathers, but for their iudgment cōcerning thē, to take that vp by tradition from their Superiours or Readers, who vpō ignorāce or malice speake what they list. You cite sometimes the Magdeburgēses. And cā not you in those Centuries of yeeres wherin the old Doctors lived, find the Magdeburgenses citing some of the Fathers, vvho in all questioned points of religiō speake for vsus & oppugne your Papistry. Neither can you find this in any other Protestant, that we want not the auncients to take our part? Hath Peter Martyr no such thing in all his works, nor Chemnitius, nor Calvin, or Bishop Iewel whō anōe you name, or that xxD: Hūfrey:worthy mā who wrote his life, or Bucer, or M. Nowel? Is S. Cyprian yours in the matter of the Primacy, when he doth not only call yyEpistol: 3:Cornelius the Romane Bishop by the appellatiō of brother, not of Lord nor superiour, but in direct termes cutteth the cable whervnto the anker of supremacy is tied. Thus he hath: zzDe simplicitat. praelatorū.Although after his resurrectiō, he giveth equal power to al his Apostles, & saith, As my father sent mee &c. yet that he might manifest an vnity, he disposed by his owne authority the originall of vnity beginning of one. That in sooth were the rest of the Apostles which Peter was, endued with the like felowship both of honor & power: but the beginning commeth frō an vnity that the Church may bee shewed to be one. Yea doth your owne Romane Bishoppe Gregory herein ioine with you? That I may not stand any longer on particulars, but referre questiōs to their places, where you give occasiō to hādle thē, I say but this in breefe, is there any anciēt Father Greeke or Latin, who ever taught as you teach cōcerning the admissiō Divinar: Instit. lib. 2: 19:& adoratiō of images, which Lactantius so oppugneth, as y^e be saith, that … there is no doubt but there is no religiō, whersoever is simulachrū animage, which is to be vnderstood▪ if it be retained to a religious vse. bbIn Epist: ad Ioan. Episcop: Hierosolomita… ▪Epiphanius going through a Church where was a veile hanging which had in it the picture of Christ, or of some p. 415Saint, tore it as being in the church cōtrary to the Scriptures, and whē he had done, of his own charge sēt thither another veile. Nay ccLib: 7: Epist 109.Gregory himself although he could like that images shold be in churches, to be as books to the ignorāt, yet he would not endure that they shold be adored. For this point thē I could wish you y^e after your presūptuous definitiō, as Claud: the Emperour of whō ddDe morte Claud… ▪Seneca merily could say, that he was such a Iudge as could determine a cause, hearing but one party speake, & sometimes neither, you would doe that which it may bee feared you hauehave not done before, that is, fall to reading of the Fathers, & many times you shal meete w^t that which cānot chuse but gawle you, & drive you to Bellarmines sophisticatiōs, not to yeeld to a truth, but to see how you cā cavil against it. What you say here against Bishop Iewel that reverēd mā, & one of the hartbreakers of your Popery, eeRation. 5Cāpiā had before you, where by D. Whitaker it received his answere. And before him, ffMotiv. 14…:Bristow had it, who was also answered by D. Fulke: yet so oft as you stil cite it, so oft must we refute it. Truth the it is that the excellent servant of God M. ggLaur: Hum…d. in vita IuelIewel not impudētly, but Christiāly, & vpō great deliberatiō & advise did chalēge any English Papist to shew out of the Fathers of the first sixe hundred yeeres diverse pointes of Popery, as their private Masse, or that the cōmuniō was administred but in one kind, or that publike praiers were saide in a language not vnderstood, or that the Pope was called the vniversal Bishop, or the head of the church, or that mē were taught this faith, that the body of Christ was contained in the Sacrament substantially, really, corporally, carnally, or that Christes body was at once in a thousand places, or that there was elevatiō & adoratiō of the Eucharist, & diverse such other matters, which the Bishop did constantly deny, not to be knowen or taught in those times of the first Church. The substance of this hhAn. 1560:Sermon made at Paules Crosse did D. Humfrey rehearse, writing the life of the saide M. Iewel, and afterward interserting his ovvne iudgement concerning many matters in difference, hee groweth to this head that the onelyonly exacte way of reformation of abuses & of determination of truth, is the vvorde of GOD; that it alone is to bee made the iudge. Vppon vvhichwhich insisting, hee inferreth that therefore Maister p. 416Iewell gaue too much, and yeelded to the Papistes more then equity, and was too iniurious to himselfe, when hee tooke not the surer, easier & shorter course of triall by the Scriptures alone, but gaue larger scope of expatiating into the Councels & Fathers. But most absurdly is your Popish conclusion gathered out of this, that therfore D. Humfrey knew or confessed that the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were against vsus and him. You should rather hauehave inferred thus much, that D. Humfrey thought that M. Iewell had a sure matter in hand, when needing to referre all but to the Scriptures, he appealed also to the Fathers; that both by the witnesse of God and man he might avouch his assertions. In case of triall for land, we know that authentical writings and evidences are the best and most absolute meanes of deciding right: but if he who oweth and possesseth the writings, knowing the integritie of his cause, shall not refuse also to hauehave his quarrell tried by the testimonies of indifferēt mē in the coūtrey, he hath departed so much from his owne right, and done more then he need to do. If then his friend shoulde say, that therein hee hath yeelded to more then meete, and did himselfe a wrong by it, by yeelding his adversary many exceptions, wheras he might hauehave tyed him onelyonly to one, should not a stander by make an absurd collectiō, if he should gather vponupon this, that the litigants friend savv well that the witnesse of the Countrey would goe against him? And especially when he whom it most concerneth, shall by the testimony of those to whom he appealed, make good all his asseverations? This was the Bishops case, and no otherwise then thus was it reported by the Venerable Doctour. And albeit this may appeare to bee thus to every one who will read the narration, yet because Bristow, Campian and you take it all one from another, and other may yet take it farther, & your people be still abused, as if so learned a man as D. Humfrey, had both disliked M. Iewels words, and given sentence touching the Fathers against vsus; for the farther satisfaction of the Reader, I desire these thinges to be marked. First that Doctour Humfrey in that booke concerning M. Iewell, as also in his iiSecund: pars Iesuitisother against Campian, doth frequently cite the old Fathers for vsus, in all questions of difference that occurre, Ergo he doth not thinke that the Doctors are all on the p. 417Papists side, and not on the Protestants. Secondly that in'all his Lectures, Disputations and Sermons he was most copious in citing and alleaging the ol… Fathers, to confirme our doctrine and to enervate Papistry, as not only we may remember who often heard him, but divers of our Fugitiues now beyond the Seas, who were of his time in this Vniversity. Thirdly to this particular, that in the very kkFol. 124:place where he speaketh of the Bishops challenge, he putteth these wordes before; And here is necessarily to be repeated that Protestation or denunciation, which was heard out of this place of Paules Crosse, which our adversaries doe calumniate to bee vaine and frivolow: which notwithstanding they will not deny to be true who are of the better sort of wit, and of more excellent learning. Can a man speake plainer then the Doctour doth here, iustifying that to be true which the Bishop said, and calling the adversaries exception to the Challenge, a calumniation? Fourthly that in the llFol. 212:place where he saith that M. Iewell yeelded too much, when he went to farther triall then the Bible, he subioineth this, Which he did not willingly, but yet he did it not besides the purpose, that he might s…ay you with the testimonie of your Fathers as with your owne sword. He calleth the Fathers yours, not because he thought them so to be, but as Ironically, because you bragge of them as if they vvere yours. Thus doeth the vanity of this slaunderous cavill appeare to every one who will not wilfully close his eies against truth: & then for all this forged obiection, the Fathers shall as wel be ours as yours.

T. HILL.

ANdyet because they hauehave found by experience, that to teach Doctrine contrary to the anciant Fathers, soundeth but badly in the peoples eares, in their Sermons they gladly nowe and then alleage the authoritie of some Doctour or Father, when they can by any meanes wringe or wrest any p…ece of a sentence so, as it may seeme to make for them. And indeed he who alleadgeth the Doctours most, is most praised of the audience, as you well know, which is a pittifull thing in them and ridiculous in the Preacher, who cānot but know, (if he hauehave read any of them himselfe) that the Fathers detest vtterly that Doctrine which he wresteth them to p. 418confirme, and in the meane time the poore audience thinketh that they were of this new Religion, whose simplicity is therein most pitifully abused by the Preacher.

G. ABBOT.

23 YOur hatred to the Gospell maketh you easily giuegive sinister interpretations to our actions. We mencion the Fathers in our Sermons, to shew that our expositions of Scripture are not singular and mm2. Pet. 1. 202 Pet 1:20private interpretations, but such as were received in the Primitiue Church; & to convince the Antichristian enemy, who like Iack Bragger boasteth of antiquity, when in comparison of Gods booke, his beliefe is nothing else but noveltie. It is not because wee woulde blinde the eies of the people, or stoppe their eares, since as you say to teach doctrine contrary to those Auncients soundeth ill: for if there be iust cause, we plainly and evidently shew where we dissent from them. Which wee doe being warranted by the word of God, which nnGalat: 1: 8teacheth vsus that if an Angell come from heaven, and preach otherwise then the Apostles hauehave preached, we should hold him accursed: And incited there vntounto by some of the Fathers themselues in open wordes, by other in their Orthodoxe meaning. For what Father woulde dare to thinke, that his speeches shoulde over-rule the Scripture? As for wringing and wresting and straining, we detest it. Gods truth needeth not to be vpheld by vntruthes. We leaue that to the masons of the Popes part, who had need vse such supporters to vnderunder-proppe the rotten and dayly falling ruines of their Antichristian kingdome. Now whereas you tell vsus that he is most praised of the Auditory, who most alleageth the Doctors, you had need to help your selfe with more then one distinctiō. For among sober & wise hearers, it is wel accepted when the Fathers are cited to good purpose & orderly: but some other there be who thinke themselues no meane folkes, which on a humorousnesse and because their Preachers are ignorant that way, & they, I meane those ignorant Pastours hauehave taught them so, like not to heare them quoted in the Pulpit. Againe the wisest congregation doth not approue of the preposterous vsing of them, p. 419as vvhen they are cited frequently and yet onelyonly in Latine or Greeke, and not Englished to the edification of the people, vvhichwhich Saint oo1. Cor. 14. 26.1 Cor 14:26Paule vvoulde ever have aimed at: Or vvhen they are hudled one vppon anothers necke vvithout cause; Or vvhen they are multiplyed rather for ambition, then vppon desire of fruite or vtility. You might have considered vppon these thinges, but you vvith the Crocodile or Hyena fall rather to a counterfeite commiseration, that it is a pityfull thinge, that the people shoulde bee made beleeve, that the Doctours vvere of the same opinion that vvee are in religion. You may doe well to taxe those men, who in their Sermons have abused or perverted the sentences of those grave and learned personages. Of the two you should rather pity your Papisticall Congregations, vvhichwhich are little troubled vvith Scriptures or Doctours, but vvith such miracles and fabulous Legendes, as your Friers doe lay before them, and nothing else. So are they turned to puddle waters, in steede of the cleere streaming fountaine of the vvater of life. That our Preachers who have reade any of the Fathers themselves, doe know that they make against that vvhichwhich they preache, is an idle suspicious surmise of your owne, and nothing else but a falling backe by a Nugatio to that vvhichwhich you formerly have spoken. It is one of the highest breaches of conscience, for a man standing in the place of God to speake to the people, there to vrge that vvhichwhich in his ovvne harte hee knoweth contrary to truth. This is inough for Bellarmine and such desperate wretches, vvho for a Cardinals hat or some other expectation, have solde themselves and their soules to their LORD God the Pope, and his LORD God the Devill.

24 I hauehave all this time traced the steppes of a bolde and malicious adversary: but now I rather apply my pen to give satisfaction to the doubtfull Reader concerning this maine question. Our Popishe writers speake in grosse of the Fathers, but what themselves in speciall determine of them, they dare not open. So much paines therefore …s is expedient I purpose to take for them, First then I aske them, vvill they p. 420hauehave vsus accept of all thinges, which these learned Doctors hauehave taught? Graunt this, and then many bee the heresies vvhichwhich wee must maintaine. hovve many were there of them, vvhichwhich imagined that the godly after the resurrection should raigne on the earth, and that but for the space of a thousand yeeres, in all worldly felicity, which is the errour of the Chiliasts or Millenary heretikes? So dreamed Irenaeus, and is taxed for it by ppEccl. Hist. lib: 3: 33:Eusebius. In this conceite also was Tertullian drenched as appeereth by his disputation against qqLib. 3.Marcion. VVith the same also vvas Iustinus Martyr tainted, as is evident by his Dialoge with Tryphon the Iewe. Yea this opinion descended so lowe, that Lactantius vvho lived in the daies of Constantine the Greate, vvas not rrDivin: Iustit: l. 7: 14…free from it. Doth not Eusebius ssEccl. Hist: lib: 6. 11.note it concerning Clemens Alexandrinus, that hee doth much comment vponupon Apocryphal matters, as if they were Scripture? How many were the heresies of Tertullian, while in all his later workes, he raveth vponupon the Paraclete of Montanus, to the which fantasticall opinion hee was most grossely vvedded? One vvhile he thinketh that ssTertul. de Monogamia.second mariages are altogither vnlawfull in the Church. Another while he frameth a ttDe …uga in persecutione.booke, that it is not lawful for any Christian to flie at all in the heate of persecution. Saint uuEpist 157:Austen observeth truly of him, that hee contended that the soules of men were not spirits but bodies, & that they hauehave their original of bodily seedes. Yea so farre he went awry, that uuContr. Helvidium.Hierome saith of him plainely, Of Tertullian I say nothing more, but that hee was not a man of the Church. VVith him I ioyne Origene, who continually almost in his commentaries on the old Testament, doth not only by Allegories pervert the literal sence of the stories, but sometimes in expresse termes saith, that xxIn Exod. Hom. 1: 2 6:in the literal meaning the narration cānot be true, which is an exceeding iniury to the Spirit of God. Another while he will have the yyDe Principij. l. 3. 6.Devill & all the Reprobates, albeit they suffer hel torments for a space, yet at the last to be saved, which doctrine zzIn …on. 3Hierome doth most iustly perstringe; howsoever in another treatise he give him his due commēdation for some matters, saying, aaLibr: N… min Hebraicor:No man but hee vvho is ignoraunt doth denye, that Origene after the Apostles vvas a maister of the Church. But for that opinion bbLib 2: Ex pol. in 1: Regum.Gregory did not suffer p. 421him to goe vvithout his censure. Origene saith hee, vvhile hee would see without the word of the Lord, the Lord appeering, hee savve the cloude inordinately, because hee vvas afraid at the appeering of the fire. For while denying the very least iustice of God, he did proclaime his clemency to bee more then needed, hee affirmed that hee woulde not onelyonly spare condemned men, but also one daye hee woulde deliver the reprobate Angels from everlasting punishment. Another of ccCommēt: super lohannem:Origens fancyes vvas that Christ did dye not to redeeme men onelyonly but the starres of heaven. He who would see more of his errours may reade ddIn Ancorat…Epiphanius, where he passeth not without his taxe: but especially let him looke eeLib: 1:Theophilus Alexandrinus, where his heresies are cited out of his owne works, & there he hath the severest sētence that may be pronoūced vpō him, which is only in Gods hād to give. Caesarius the brother of Gregory Nazianzen hath little better opinion of him, when hee first termeth him ffDiolog. 3:a vaine trifler, but afterward impious and an idle talker. Breefely the famous sentence of ggContr. Haeres. cap: 23. & 24:Vincentius Lytinensis concerning him & Tertullian biteth deepe, as the Reader may see if hee please to looke into that Authour.

25 I come now to some other of these worthy men, but yet still men, and therfore may trippe in their pathes. Cyprian was a good Bishoppe, and a Martyr for the truth of CHRIST: yet hhConcil: Carthag: in Cypriā … Euseb: Eccle: Hist lib 7…3:hee and diverse Africane Bishoppes swarved from the truth, in the question of rebaptizing those vvho vvere baptized by Heretikes. Of him Saint Augustine vvriteth thus, iiLib: 1: de Baptism. … contra Donatistas.UUhereas that holy man Cyprian thinking otherwise of Baptisme then the matter vvas (which afterward vvas handled and by most diligent consideration established) did continue in the Catholike Unity, it vvas both recompenced by the plentifulnesse of his charitie, and vvas purged by: be cutting booke of his suffering. VVhat a straunge imagination was that of kkLib: 10: de Trinitat.Hilary, when hee supposed that all the hurtes and vvoundes, did no more touch or affect Christ on the Crosse or else-where, thē blows do the aire or the water, or prickīg the fire. He thought that there was a violēce offered on the adversaries parte, but no smart or paine of Christs part. This strange supposal doth llPart: 3: quaest: 15: art. 5:Thomas Aquinas labour to excuse in Hilary; but the blemishe is so plaine, as that by no meanes it can bee covered. VVhat p. 422Lactantius thought of the holy Ghost I had leifer sette downe in Hieromes vvoordes then in mine owne. mmEpist: 65…Lactantius in his bookes, but especiallye in his Epistles ad Demetrianum, doth altogether denye the substance of the holye Ghost, and by a levvishe errour doth saye, that it is either referred to the Father or to the Sonne, and that the sanctification of either person is intended vnderunder the name of it, that is, the holye Ghost. And had not Hierome himselfe those thinges in him, vvhichwhich cannot bee defended? As his nnContr. lovinian.immoderate preferring of single life before mariage, and his ooAug: Epist. 19:pertinacious advouching that Saint Peter did not deserve to bee reprehended by Saint Paule for ppGal: 2: 12:halting vvith the Iewes. Chrysostome besides his too forward testimonies for freewill, which Papistes themselves dislike, is of minde & qqHom: 3: in Epist: ad Philip. & Hom 11. in 1. ad Cor.teacheth it, that although men dye in sinne, be condemned and in hell, yet almes and ostrings & other helpes of praiers done by them who are alive, may ease them and diminishe some measure of their tormentes. Neither doth Saint Augustine want his imperfections, as whē he determineth that all children dying without rrEpist 28.Baptisme go to the flames of hell, which the Romanistes nowe wil not admit: And whē he liketh their iudgment, who thought that vponupon hazard of their salvation the ssEpist. 106. & 107.Eucharist was to be administred to Infantes. Many more such examples might be added of vndoubted errours, in these learned mē, wherin I trust no Papist is so absurde, as to prescribe vntounto vsus that we should ioyne with them, least of good Christians we should become lovers of errours, and in some things embracers of heresyes. Besides these vnquestionable over-sightes, it falleth out ofte, that the Fathers do some of them differ, nay are contrary or cōtradictory in iudgment, some to other, and some to themselves. What shal we doe in this case, or whom shal we follow, if the bare authority of these writers be of it selfe so stronge, as they would make it? I will not instaunce in those hereticall or erroneous opinions before named, where some of them affirme and some Orthodoxely deny, and a Christian man without the Scripture can give no decision vvhether is in the right: Cull out that onelyonly for example sake, vvhere Hierome and Augustine doe so differ, about Saint Peter and Saint Paule, vvhether of them did amisse; hovve p. 423should we know but by the Apostles writing? But to whether of them in this contradictorie case shulde vvee give credite, if they vvere considered in themselves? Neither vvill I instaunce matters of meane respecte, as hovve Saint ssQuaest. 123 sup Exod. & qu. 81. sup. Levitie.Austen crosseth himselfe in this question, whither the Cydaris vvere an attire for the heade or no: Or vvhether Plato spake personally vvith the Prophet Ieremie in Aegypte and learned of him many thinges, or no, to the which being the iudgement of Ambrose in one ttDe doctr. Christ: lib: 2: 28place hee assenteth, but in uuDe civit: Dei l. 8: 11:another hee speaketh against it. But I rather referre men to their differences about the Canonicall Scripture, vvhichwhich iiResponsad Ration. 8.before I have shewed; and vvhichwhich is a matter of greate momente. Or to those thinges which Saint Augustine himselfe uuIn libr: Retract:retracted in his owne vvorkes. Or to those different iudgementes in capitall causes, vvhichwhich Bellarmine citeth in infinite places, and Sixtus xxIn Bibliothe casācta.Senensis in verie many. Or to such like as that of Gregory, where one vvhile hee saith that Cornelius by those yyHomil: 9: in Ezechi.vvorkes vvhichwhich vvent before his faith did merite that hee afterward might hauehave faith, and another zzHomil: 19.while hee expressely denyeth that, and saith that by faith hee came to his workes. Now if there bee such doubtes as these in the Fathers, or other like, and we cannot be resolved out of these Doctours; or if question be of the verity of their doctrine, whither must we hauehave recourse? The Papistes will say to the Church of Rome, that is to thēselves, but the Fathers wil tell vsus to the word of God, as forth-with I shal shewe: which every way discovereth the base weakenesse of the vnCatholike Church, since the Doctors are not the touch-stone of truth, but are themselves to be tried by some thing else: they are not selfesufficient, but all their words are to be weighed in the ballaunce of the Sanctuarie, where if they beare waight, they are to be accepted, if they be found too light, they are to bee reiected. Our ground then and foundation is not in these men, although never so worthy men, but the booke of God must make the finall and irrefragable decision.

26 For the better establishing of this, let vsus heare the Fathers themselves speake. I put Saint Augustine in the foremost ranke, as one vvho had most occasion to deale in this argument. In p. 424the controversie betweene him & Hierome, he is aaEpist. 19:pressed with the authority of other writers. Hee answereth, I doe confesse vntounto your charity, I have learned to give this reverence and honour to those onelyonly bookes of Scriptures which are called Canonicall, that I doe most firmely beleeve, that no authour of them did erre in writing any thing. To other then hee taketh exception. Hee speaketh elsewhere plainer: bbEpist. 48.The Fathers are not so reade, as if a testimony might bee so drawne out of them, that it were not lawfull to thinke contrariwise, if they have otherwise suppo…ed then the truth did require. And againe, ccEpist. 113.I have put the opinions of so great men &c. not that I doe thinke them to be followed as the Canonical Scripture. And whē he was hard pressed in the Controversie of Baptisme with the authority of Cyprian, hee aunswereth Cresconius, ddContr. Crescen. Grāmatic: lib: 2….I esteeme the letters of Cyprian not as Canonicall, but I consider them out of the Canonicall, and looke vvhat agreeth in them to the authoritie of the Divine Scriptures, vvith praise to him I receive, vvhat doth not agree, vvith his good leave I refuse. And afterward, Because that is not Canonical, vvhichwhich thou r…est, vvith that libertie to vvhichwhich GOD hath called vsus, I doe not receive that vvhichwhich savoured amisse of that man vvhose praise I cannot attaine vntounto, to vvhose many letters I doe not compare my vvritinges, vvhose vvitte I lone, vvith vvhose speech I am delighted. whose charity I doe admire, whose martyrdome I hold venerable. Can ought be delivered more significantly, and to our purpose then this is? And least that any man should suspect that hee was more strictly laced toward other men, thē he would have other toward him, he frequently writeth as modestly of himselfe, as he doth wisely of those who went before him. As to eeEpistol: 7:Marcellinus, I therefore doe confesse my selfe to bee of the number of them, vvhe in profiting doe vvrite, and in vvriting doe profite. VVherevpon if any thing bee set dovvne by mee, either vnvvarily or vnlearnedly, which not onelyonly by other men vvho can see that, may bee vvorthily reprehended, but also of my selfe, because even I at least aftervvard ought to see it, if I doe profite, it is neither to be wondered at, nor to be grieved at, but rather it is to be pardonned, and to bee reioyced at, not because there hath beene an errour, but because it hath beene disliked. For that man doth too perversely love himselfe, vvho vvill have other men also to erre, that his errour may lye hid. And to Fortunatianus, ffEpist. 111.Neither p. 425are wee to account the disputations, of any men, though Catholikes and commendable persons, as the Canonical Scriptures: that saving the honour which is due vntounto those men, it is not lawfull for vsus to dislike and reict some thing in their writings, if perhaps we shal find that they hauehave otherwise thought, then that truth hath, which by the helpe of God, hath either bin vnderstood by others, or by vsus. Such a one am I in the writings of other mens & such would I have the vnderstāders of mine to be. And handling the high mysteries of the Trinity, he saith, ggDe Trinit at: l. 1. 3:Whosoever readeth these things, where he is alike sure, let him go on with me, where alike hee doubteth let him seeke vvith mee, vvhere hee knovveth his errour let him returne to me, vvhere hee spieth mine, let him recall mee. And in the same booke else-where, hhLib. …. in p…aefation:Let the one not love mee more then the Catholike faith, let the other not love himselfe more then the Catholike truth, As I say to the one, doe not attend on my writings as on the Canonical Scriptures &c. This is the minde of Saint Augustine.

27 Neither doth this renoumed servant of God heerein goe alone, but he hath sufficient of others, who in this be halfe do second him. The great Dionysius, not the supposed Areopagite, but another worthy man since his time, did long ago informe vsus in this doubt: Eusebius bringeth him in speaking thus: iiEccles. Hist l 7: 19:I do very much reverence Nepos, yet truth is the neerest friend of all, and ought deservedly to be preferred before all. And if any thing be rightly spoken, that is to be commended without envy, but if any thing bee committed to writing not sincerely and soundly, this with diligence is to bee sought out, & to be reprooved. To this effect also are the words of S, Hierome: I kkEpist: 62:doe know that I my selfe doe esteeme of the Apostles in one sort, and of other writers in another sort: that the first do alwaies speake the truth, and the latter as men doe in some things erre. Adde to these that of Theodoret, who saith that, llDialog. 3.the Fathers of the Church by a vehe…ent contention against their adversaries doe many times exceede measure. Thus they vse to do who plant trees. For whē they see a tree growne crooked, they do not onelyonly set him vp vpright, but they doe bende him to the other side, that by too much inclining to the contrarie parte, they may cause it to bee straight. This is the iudgement of the auncient vvriters themselves, concerning the workes of one another, that they go too farre, that they do & may erre, that they are not p. 426to be ioyned in equal estimatiō with the Canonical Scriptures: And therfore what reasō have we not to vse our Christiā liberty in examinig of thē by the rule of truth, so to embrace that which is right, and to repudiate that which is of another nature? I doe marveile then what advauntage our Papistes doe thinke they can gette, by craking vppon the names of these, since their authority even in their ovvne iudgement is not absolute and Dictatourlike, but vvith a reference, and meerely dependent vppon a higher commaunder: In which case if they stoope to the scepter of the LORD, wee willingly and readily admit of them vvith due honour and reverence; othervvise we leaue them. But the tryer of them we hold to be the Canonical Scripture of the olde and new Testament.

28 On the other side how the Synagogue of Rome (speake they of these Doctours never so faire) doe deale vvith them, it is good that every vveake Christian shoulde know. For howsoever they in their vvordes pretende greate honour to them. yet in truth they are the onelyonly men in the vvorlde, vvho offer notorious vvronge to them. For first, how are they debased, when such lights of the Easterne and VVesterne Church, men so fraughted vvith knowledge, and adorned vvith eloquence, shall not onelyonly bee sette in comparison vvith, but set after the Popes barbarous champion Thomas of Aquine? Noble Hierome thou hast vvell studyed, and renoumed Augustine thou hast wel laboured, to come to such a preferment in thine old age. For one of the Popes Aug: Hū naeus in praefat, Sūmm. Aquinat. ad, Pium 5. Pontific.Innocents, did so much esteeme the learning of Aquinas, that he doubted not to give vntounto him the first place after the Canonical Scripture. Which albeit originally it be but the censure of one man, yet knowe that he was Bishoppe of Rome, and when it is prefixed before the Summe of Aquinas, & dedicated to another Pope, it is intended to bee of credite, and that more must be of that mind if they thēselues wil. And llIcon. & vite Papar. in Pio: 5:since that time Pius the 5. hath placed the same Aquinas fifte among the Doctou… of the Church, to the greate preiudice and dishonour of all the rest. Secondly vvhat dishonour doe they, to the renoumed company of those admirable men, vvhen they ranke vvith them, and as it vvere thrust vppon them, base p. 427companions, a bastardlye broode, vvhichwhich have no learning, iudgement or anie other eminente parte to commend them? Of their counterfeit Dionysius Areopagite I have spoken before. But Maister Harding vvriting against Bishoppe lewel citeth in his greatest matters, nnL. Humfry. in vita luelli.Amphilochius, Abdias, Leontius, Martialis Simon Metaphrastes, Hippolitus, Vincentius, Clemens, Cletus, Anacletus, counterfeit Athanasius and Basile, and other authours of Decretall Epistles in steede of true Fathers. And Bellarmine in his disputes beeing many times neere driven, is glad to flye to such, as for a stake to a hedge. This is to extenuate the reputation of those greate starres, and to make them to be meanely thought of, because those vvith vvhomethey are sorted, deserve no better. It is the disgrace of the best, when those of vvorst qualitye are coupled vvith them as their fellowes. In the time of ooBodin: de Rep: l: 5: 4:Pope Iulius the thirde the Cardinals of Rome knevve this; vvhen seeing the Pope to create Montanus Cardinall, one vvhome for his pleasures sake he had taken out of a most beggerly estate, & brought him vp at home, they ioyned in a request and motion in behalfe of the College of Cardinals, that hee vvould not suffer that honourable degree to bee stayned by the presence of so contemtible a man, vvho had neither vvealth, nor vvisedome, nor vertue, nor parentage, nor learning, nor any thinge to commend him. Indeed the Pope there had thē at the advātage, for he was able to beate them with their own rodde, & therfore replyed vponupon them, VVhat vertues I pray you, what learning, vvhat parentage, what good qualities vvas I famous for, vvhen you made mee Pope? His personall reproofe to them vvas iust; othervvise their sute had beene reasonable: for such a consort coulde no vvay honest their College; as these silye Popishe authours doe no way adde estimation, but manifold dis-reputation to the Fathers. Thirdly howe shamefully did the predecessours of these late Papists, in the time of darke ignorance foist in parts of tracts, and whole treatises into the volumes of the Fathers, so labouring that new writings might runne currant for old, vpstarts for natural, & very draffe & chaffe for good corne. There is seāt any one of the Fathers which hath escaped free herein, not Cyprian, not p. 428Austen, not Hierome, out of whose works many bookes & peeces may be pulled, which for the matter or style doe no more refēble those authours, thē Aesops Asse did a Liō, whē he had got that Roial beasts skinne on his backe. The Popish Censurers in their editiōs do cōfesse so much, but Erasmus a mā who had the gift of pp1: Cor: 12: 10.discerning of spirits did go beyond them al, and in his prefaces, arguments, or Censures vponupon bookes, doth yeelde the reasons of his opinion. It is incredible to thinke how absurde things are fathered on these Doctours, as by name that Adfratres in eremo before said to be intituled to Saint Austen, where the absurde fellow sometimes plainly taketh vpō him the name of Austē Bishop of Hippon, but to procure admiration saith qqSerm: 37.that he traveiled into Aethiopia, & saw there men without heades, with their eies set in their brest, and others he beheld which had onelyonly one eye in the middle of their fore-head. I wishe that either Sir Iohn rrM Hac…its ving.Maundevile had beene with him, or he with Sir Iohn Maundevile. This tricke of iugling in such tractes, is a daungerous matter to any who vvill rest himselfe too farre vppon the Fathers vvritinges: and our Popishe people hauehave in their fraude greate advauntage, vvhen out of such as they are, they vvill confirme their Paradoxes. But there is another pointe more tickle then this, vvhen their Monkes and Cloister men vvould intersert into the true and proper workes of the best writers, whole leafes, or pages or sentences, more or lesse to serve for their purpose. Erasmus who laboured exceedingly in repairing and restoring antiquity, & to whose paines al learned men do owe much, cōplaineth bitterly of this; as in one of his ssLib: de spirit. sāct.prefaces to a booke of S. Basile, he with griefe saith, that the same measure was affoorded to Basile, which he had otherwise experimented in Athanasius, Chrysostome, Hierome, and that vvas, that in the middle of treatises, many thinges vvere stuffed and forced in by other, in the name of the Fathers. Hēce the Romish generatiō might build even what pleased thēselves. But besides all this, as in other artes so in Divinity & in the writings of the Doctours, by the ignoraunce of the Novices, in Monasteries sette to write out Copies of bookes, yea of their ssVives de canis corrupr: art: lib: 1.Nunnes so imployed, diverse argumentes of bookes vvere put into the bookes themselves, p. 429and Annotations in the Marge …t were erepte into the texte. Concerning this depravation of learned mens vvorkes in all kindes. Lodovicus Vives hath written diverse bookes intituled, Of the causes hovve or vvhy the artes vvere corrupted, and hath there many observations and complaintes, that some ignorauntly, some maliciously, all audaciously did such thinges. I thinke it not amisle to cite one sentence of his, vvhichwhich shevveth hovve diverse counterfeite bookes had the names of noble Authours put vppon them. Among such as did vvrite out volumes, ttLibr: 1:there vvere some vvho to procure authoritie to a booke, did in writing put to it the name of some greate authour: other, that when in times past many bookes vvere put out vvithout names, being mooved vvith some very light coniecture, did adiudge it to one or to another: other if they did not knowe the name of the title, did not doubt to chaunge it, and to transferre it to vvhome they thought good: there were such as vvrote out bookes, vvho looke vvhat name came first in their mind, that they did sette before for the title. There bee manie examples of all these thinges, in those authours vvhome even novve I named, Aristotle, Plato, Origen, Cyprian, Hierome, Augustine, Boetius, Cicero, Seneca, and all these have beene received vvithout difference, and no lesse authority and credite given to them, then to those which were true and naturall. This is a noble testimony of a very learned man, who spent much traveile purposely in this argument, and sheweth by what sinister meanes such came to bee reputed Fathers, who were more fit to bee taken for children.

29 Fourthly I name that which is most horrible of all other, even a manifest evidence of a desperate cause, and that vvhichwhich is rotten at the roote. VVherein the impudency and shamelesse fore-head of the vvhore of Babylon and her Peeres, can never sufficientlye bee exclaimed vppon, albeit heaven and earth, and all the creatures therein bee called to vvitnesse. For hath this Antichristian broode so longe fledde from the Scriptures to the Fathers, and hauehave they and doe they so crake of these every where, and are they nowe forced to raze them, and pare them, and blurre them, else they cannot hould vp their irreligion? This is the case of vvhichwhich I desire all my weake p. 430and abused country-men to take notice. In the Conventicle of Trent there were certaine uuIndex Expurgar. Belgic. in Regul. Cō cil: Tridentini.rules made, vvhichwhich openlye did pretend the purging and clensing of bookes from hereticall matters, but secretly intende more, even to raze out what they thinke fitte out of olde or newe, as their practise in this behalfe doth testifie, vvhichwhich is vvarranted by the covert orders there concluded. For this businesse, in diverse places of the Papacy, vvere secretly appointed some of their owne stampe, men conscience-lesse and fitte for any vile acte, to revise as well the Fathers, as later bookes of all sortes, and vvhatsoever made against Popery and could not handsomely bee glosed, should vppon the newe printing of the bookes by Printers in Popishe places, bee cunningly altered or quite lefte out. This must bee done, notwithstanding that all the copies even formerly printed by themselves, and many written ones in their libraries, and as many in ours, did plainely shevve the contrarie. Yea though marveilous store of copyes, vvritten hundreds of yeeres before, vvhen as neither Luther, nor Hus, nor Wiclefe vvere yet borne, did concurre in that for which we plead. Heere-vppon closely vvas dravvne first uuAn: 1571.one Index Expurgatorius, by the vvarrant of Philippe the second King of Spaine, and of the Duke of Alva Governour of the Lovve Countryes for him. There in the Kinges letters patentes prefixed before the booke, charge is given that in every city where booke-sellers dvvell, there shoulde bee some Prelates appointed to supervise all noted bookes, and that xxDiploma Regis Catholici Belgic.they should have vvith them privatelye, and no other men knovving of it, one Index Expurgatorius, vvhichwhich they shoulde neither communicate vntounto others, nor graunt a copy of it to any man, but only shall most diligently take care of that, that they inquire vppon, expunge, and restore the places before spoken of. According to this, were al the new printed bookes proceeded withall by them, and our men not knowing the mystery wondred at those things which were left out and altered, but could not gesse at the true cause, till about fifteene yyAn: 1587:yeeres after, Franciscus Iunius by Gods speciall providence light vponupon one of them, and published it to the vvorlde. Sutable to this vvas there by the commaundement of Pope zzAn. 1572.Pius the 5. a p. 431Censure vponupon the Glosses of the Canon Lawe closely framed by Frier Thomas Manriq. Maister of the holy and Apostolike Palace, and the same by the aaAn: 1580:mandate of Pope Gregory the 13. was afterward reviewed by Sixtus Faber also Maister of the same Palace Apostolike, and according therevnto were the Glosses of the Canon Lavv printed, all thinges being blotted out which made against the Romishe faith. This also vvas concealed, as the Index Expurgatorius had beene before, till that bbAn: 1599:latelye Doctour Iohn Pappus mette vvith it, and published it to the view of all vvho vvill reade it. I finde also ccF. Gregor. Capuch: in libris Corrig: fol: 166:mention of a Censure concerning certaine Authours, vvhichwhich vvas put out in Spaine in the yeere 1562. but the booke it selfe is not yet come (for ought that I knowe) to anye of our handes. But after that, by the meanes of Gaspar Quiroga Cardinall and Archbishoppe of Toledo, beeing also cheefe Inquisitour in Spaine, ddAn: 1584: Madriti apud Alphons. Gomezium Regiū Typograph.there was printed another Index Librorum Expurgatorum, which was not without the advise of the highe Sonate of the holy Generall Inquisition. This booke also vvas unknovvne to any Protestant, vntill that her late Maiesties forces taking the tovvne of eeAn. 1596:Calez in Spaine, there vvas one of these Indices founde there, vvhichwhich beeing brought into England, was by a ffM. Tho. Iames.man carefull to laye open such fraudes, sent to the L. of Plessis into Fraunce, vvho keeping the originall in his ovvne Library, ggAn: 1601:printed it at Saumure, and made it knowne to the bodye of Christendome. In the beginning of this edition it is shevved, that they thrust out diverse thinges of their ovvne vvriters, as out of the vvoorkes of Osorius, Ferus, a booke called hhEdit: Venetijs An: 1576.Ordo Baptizandi cum modo visitandi. Yea out of the Glosse on Epiphanius, and from the Tables in the endes of the woorkes of Chrysostome, Hilary, Hierome, Cyril of Alexandria, vvhen notvvithstanding the matters to bee put out and razed, are either literally or in sence apparantly, and not to bee spoken against, in the Texte of those Fathers. Nay in the Index of the Bibles put out by Robert Stephanus, these propositions must bee blotted out as suspect, iiIoh: 11. 26:Hee vvho beleeveth in CHRIST shall not dye everlastingly. kkAct. 15. 9.Acts 15:9By faith the heartes are purified, llGal. 2. 16:Gal 2:16UUee are iustified by faith in Christ, p. 432Christ is mm1. Con 1: 30.our righteousnesse, No nnPs: 143. 2:man is righteous before God, oo1: Cor: 7… 2.Every man may have his wife, wheras yet notwithstanding they are the very worde of GOD, as may bee seene in the places quoted.

30. Last of all, (for ought that is yet come to our knowledge) there was a treatise ppVenetijs An: 1597: apud lo: Baptistam, & lo: Bernardum Sessam.Concerning bookes to bee corrected, put out by F…ter Gregory a Capuchine Neopolitane intituling himselfe Purger of the bookes at Naples. This fellow doth frequently make mention of the Censure put out in Spaine Anno 1562. & 1584. & is much more peremptory then it, or any other whom I hauehave seene. I will breefely lay downe some things that I finde in him. Speaking then of qqLitera. F. fol. 153:Frauncis Petrarcha, thus he saith, Let there bee put out the foure expositions with the texte, to wit, Dell' impia Babilonia, … Avara Babilonia, Fontana de dolori, fiamma del Cielo, which matters how neere they touch Rome, every one acquainted with Petrarkes works do wel know. Mentioning the Bibles of the rrFol. 166.Vulgar edition, thus he speaketh, Bibles which are defective in the Text, according to the Tridentine Councel, Sess. 4. in the Decree de vsu sa…r. libr. I do ever burne. And I make an experiment in the 3. Chapter of Genesis, where I finde, In the sweate of thy face thou shall eate breade, vntil thou returne vntounto the earth, & he doth not say, In the sweate of thy face thou shalt eate thy breade, vntill &c. I without remission as a texte suspect, do not passe to it, censuring it; but setting it on fire. Now if it be a defect to put it bread and not thy bread, it is such a defect as is in the Hebrew, & our bookes reade it commonly in Latin & other languages without thy, & so do most of the Vulgar Popish editions for ought that I can finde. And if it be a fault to put thy to the texte, it should rather be chastised for a superfluity then for a defect. Talking of his Correction of a booke of Iacobus Spieglius, he hath these words, ssFol. 199 & Idem fere. fol. 217:Which correction I do put, not that it is to be accounted for a perfect correction, that it should neede no farther amending: but only satisfying my duty, that it may bee knowne that it is to be corrected, & that at least it should be corrected as followeth, till there come a better correction put out with greater consideration: since I finde by experience that too day I see a booke or aleafe, & by various businesses of my mind I do not iudge him to be worthie greater correction, & on the morrow vponupon a new cōsideration, I do iudge him to be worthy of correctiō. p. 433And therefore I do notifie thus much that as well the booke following as these before are worthy of correctiō: & if they be corrected after the mā ner mētioned, easily according to the Trent Index, there may by the most Reverend Bishops leave be given to reade them, till some farther correction do appeere. This is a good plaine fellow, & therfore telleth vsus that once amending of a booke will not suffice, but they will to it againe and againe. ssFol: 215:Else-where he saith that among them the Revisers, there is a note of three hūdred & fifty Authours which are suspected, & are to be over-vewed. ttFol: 218:Finally he deepely findeth fault with the Index Librorum Expurgandorum (for so hee calleth it) printed at Madrill by Alphonsus Gomezius in the yeere 1584. saying that it containeth things erroneous & heretical, as by name, that it doth not sufficiently expunge & purge the workes of Carolus Molineus, whome hee tearmeth an heretike of the first or highest forme. Thus we may iustly feare that there will never be an end of their clipping & curtolling, when themselves cannot agree what is to be pulled out, but when they have fleeced and plumed the workes of any the most learned man, either of our side or of their owne, some other of these purgers may & must, againe and againe fall vponupon the same.

31 But if heere it be replyed as some Papists amongst vsus do already mutter, & as it is probable that Gretzerus will vrge more at large, if he put forth a defence of the Indices Expurgatorij, as I heare that he intendeth, That this clipping and blotting out, is not in the texts of the Fathers, but onelyonly in Prefaces, Marginall notes, Collections out of them, or observations vponupon them, or else if it be very textes, it is but out of the works of later writers, I aunswere that these purgings and razings towards the Fathers themselves indeede do not so directly appeere as the other, for in this they vse a singular cunning, obliquely to doe what they possibly may. But I desire to bee informed to what ende these things do bende. First they confesse in their … Belg…ke Index Expurgatorius thus much concerning the old writers, In other auncient In Beitramo.Catholikes meaning the Fathers, we beare many errours, & extenuate them, excuse them, excogitating some devise we many times deny them, and doe faine vntounto them a convenient sence, while they are opposed in disputations, or inconflictes with the adversaries. Heere is a p. 434distorting and turning away of the sence of the Fathers, even against their owne consciences. Secondly I finde it reported by uuPraefat. ad Lector. in Belg. Indic. Ex. purg:Iunius, as a matter which himselfe sawe, that now about forty yeeres since, the workes of S. Ambrose being printed at Lions by Frelonius, there came in two Franciscanes which razed out much of diverse printed sheetes, which enforced Frelonius to new print the same againe, not after the olde Copies, but as the Friers would hauehave them, to the great charge and trouble of the Printer, as Ludovicus Savarius the correctour of the presse did complaine, professing that he would buy any copy of Ambrose rather then that. It were a good labour for some man who had leisure, to conferre the elder bookes with that edition, & to notifie the differences to the worlde. Thirdly I houlde it the same fraude to adde which it is to diminishe, neither is there any sentence but by interlacing wordes inough, a cunning worke-man may turne it cleane contrary to the sence of the Authour himselfe: And this may be as good an Index Correctorius or Additorius as the other Expurgatorius. Pamelius a Canō of Bruges taketh on him to revise S. Cyprian, & finding that pregnant place, before by me mētioned, xxDe vnitate Ecclesiae Alias de simplicitate praelatorum:The rest of the Apostles were the same which Peter was, endewed with like fellowshippe both of honour and of power, & other things both before and after it to that purpose, he foisteth into the middle of sentences, for super vnum aedificat Ecclesiam, vpō one he buildeth the Church, thus much, super illum vnum aedificat Ecclesiam suam, & illi Pascendas mandat oves suas: he buildeth his Church vponupon that one meaning Peter & committeth his sheepe to him to bee fedde. And againe vnam cathedram constituit, hee erected one chaire, And afterward Qui cathedram Petri super quam fūda est Ecclesia deserit, he who for saketh the chaire of Peter vppon which the Church is founded, doth he hope that he is in the Church? yyObservat. in Pamelij Annotat.Simon Goulartius who hath displayed the wicked falshood of this forger, besides other evidences against this vilainy, doth cite the wordes of Gratian out of the new editiō of Gregories Decree, which bringeth in the place of Cyprian as we & all other (before Pamelius) did reade it. But a zzTh Bilsonus Epis cop. Winton. lib. 1. contra Pōtificios.learned man of our Church handling that last place, he who far saketh the chaire of Peter vponupon which the Church is built, doth shew that this addition is contrary to all the printed p. 435Copies which were before, as by name of Alopecius at Coleine, Hervagius at Basile, Langelier at Paris, Crinitus at Antwerpe, Griphius at Lions, Manutius at Rome. Yea that besides Erasmus diverse Papists as Rembolius, Canchius, Costerius, Gravius, Manutius, Morelius, had set foorth Cyprian, searching for written copies of the best both farre and neere, & yet no man of all these, in all their editions thinking of any such matter. Lastly that aaIn indiculo c…um excusor: & manuscr. in initio Cypr.Pamelius himselfe saying that he had the helpe of eight more manuscript copies besides printed ones, could gather no such thinge in any of all them, but onelyonly out of one Cambron copie, which must checke all the bookes of Christendome. VVhichWhich sheweth that doubtlesse this Cambron broode was forged in former time by some one, who was desirous to magnifie the Primacy of the Pope. Fourthly our makers of the Indices doe goe very neere the Fathers, whē they blotte out of the Tables of their bookes those things which were in the Authours themselves, either word for word or in apparant meaning as before I have manifested. Fifthly it is not to be doubted, but that as there be many things more altered in Cyprian by Pamelius, which Goulartius hath refuted, and may be reade by any man that will, And many matters razed in Ambrose, so if any man had leisure to conferre them, hee should finde the like done in Chrysostome and other of the Fathers (as bbVide Th. Bilson. lib. 4Basile is notably forged to make for Images) some things being added, some diminished, other changed, the tryall whereof it were good some of our men did vndertake in the Gregory lately put out at Rome, or some other such booke. Sixthly who knoweth whether there bee any such Index gathered already, or in gathering, for the writings of all the Fathers, by the which the new editions must be trimmed. VVe see that daily they adde their other Indices, therfore they may adde one of this nature also; And long it was before those could be found, which now are discovered, and so the times of the descrying of this may not be yet come. Or who knoweth whether they who began with the marginal notes, Contents, Arguments, Tables and other Observations vponupon the Doctours, & therin did make triall by this gentle sounding at first, how wel they could cary it, or how the world woulde take it, now grow resolute to proceed p. 436farther. Since they are over shooes, best plunge higher even over the shoulders: they see their good will is knowne, and therefore best now be impudent, the ice is broken in Ambrose & Cyprian, & they are no better then their fellowes, who therfore worthily shall all be served with the same sawce. Seventhly, which is not least to bee observed, and sitteth best with my former coniectures, a late country-man of ours from Rome hath givē some prety light to this matter: I meane the Authour of the ccThe warnwoord to S F…Ha. stings wast-word.VVarnewoord. Whether I should say this to be Father Parsons, or Father Warford, I know not well: since Warford as I am certainely informed, hath perpetually free accesse to the others study, & digesteth that matter vvhichwhich Parsons is not at leisure to put into forme, & sometimes putting Epistles & Prefaces to the workes of the elder Foxe, they two play handy-dandy so eche with other, that they thinke by a Iesuitish conveiance, they ioyntly or severally according to the cōveniency of their thē present purposes may affirme or deny any booke to be or not be the worke of Father Parsons. But whether soever of the two it be, he being charged by his adversary with the clipping of the Fathers according to the rules of the Index Expurgatorius, laboureth to avoide from his side the imputation of those fraudes. And for that purpose ddEncount. 2: cap 9:citeth diverse rules prefixed by the Councel of Trent, before the Index, all which rules do touch the workes of later writers; but touching those which are ancient, he saith that thus they decree, In libris autem Catholicorum veterum, nihil mutari fa… sit nisi vbi aut fraude haereticorum, aut typographi incuria manifestus error irrepserit. Which he Englisheth thus, It may not be lawfull (for them that correct bookes) to chaunge any thing at all in the bookes of the ancient Catholikes, except where any manifest errour shoulde appeere to have crept in, either by the fraude of heretikes, or negligence of the Printer. Heere then are two cases, in which even the works of the old Fathers may bee altered: And according to this hee affirmeth of the Spanishe Index Expurgatorius: that it is most certaine that in all they put out of any authour before our age, they follow one of two reasons before mentioned, to wit, that either they find it thrust in by heretiks, or by errour of the Printer, & that other more ancient & corrected copies had it not. Now vnderunder this shamelesse coulour, they in their impudē cy p. 437may do what they list: for since Papistes and Popishe Correctours must be the Iudges, there shal bee nothing which crosseth their Antichristian doctrine, but it by and by shal be saide (even contrary to all antiquity) to be thrust in by heretikes. And what conscience they make in practising their owne rule, and keeping themselves within compasse thereof, may bee seene by that of Cyprian so handled by Pamelius as is before mencioned, where it cannot be denied but that they have altered the wordes from those which formerly were, And shal it now bee saide to bee the Printers faulte, that the words are as we reade them. Why their owne Prints, & all the olde written copies have them so. Or shal it be said to be foisted in by heretikes, when so many & so greate Papists as Costerius, Manutius, Morelius and the other aboue named were, yea Gratian himselfe doth put it as wee doe? The truth then is, they wil put in & put out, adde, diminish, choppe, chaunge & alter what they list, & if any shewe can that way be made it shall be pretended to be the errour of the Printer, or the falshood of an Heretike: but if there be not so much as any coulour for that pretence, yet if it bee for their purpose, it shall bee done, with hope that it shall not bee espied, or that some secrete probable reason shal be imagined wherfore iustly they might do so. In which respect I may say, that the rule is wicked & the practise is worse, the one sl…y permitteth falshood, the other more audaciously doth execute it, and so even the workes of the most Auncient are daily depraved by this sinfull and deceitfull Romishe broode. So that if ever there were a fraudulent and false generation of vipers on the earth; if men that have solde themselves to falshood; if such as to serve the turne of their vn-holy Father, care not what they doe which may cary any pretence, it is this vngracious and vngodly company. The Lorde discover their wickednesse to the simple people, that every one may see and detest their damnable abuses. By these plaine and evident matters, it may appeere whether the Romanists or we doe truely make more reckoning of the Fathers, since wee yeelde them so much authority as belongeth to auncient, godly, and learned men, noble lampes in the Primitive Church, and great illustratours of the truth; they in substance overthrow all this; since we p. 438conserving them, they corrupt them, and either raze or adde to, or pervert such sentences & sayings of the Doctours, as any way impeach their Romish Hierarchy wherby as vsurpers they raigne and dominere in the consciences of men and women.

FINIS.