A Mild and Just Defense of Certain Arguments, Tract · Part 3 · Argument 5
THE FITH ARGVMENT.
Nehemiah ſpake to an heathen King for the materiall Ieruſalem. So did Heſter to the like King for her people, and that not without great danger to her ſelfe. Ioſeph alſo of Arimathea and Nicodemus, (both timorous men) ſpake boldly to Pilate, (an heathen alſo) for the body of Chriſt beyng dead, that they might honorably bury it: yea this they two did, when all the Diſciples of Chriſt had forſaken him, as alſo when his enimyes had prevailed againſt him. Yet all theſe had good ſucceſſe in that for which they ſpake. Ergo Much more ought this High Court of Parliament, to ſpeake to a Chriſtian and religious King, for the building of the ſpirituall Ieruſalem, for the ſpirituall ſtate and furthering of the ſoules of many depending upon the Miniſters now moleſted, and for whole Chriſt Ieſus now living and raignyng.
Marginall notes.
G. Powela Impertinent example.
Reply. G. PowelThis note is impertinent, as ſhall appeare by his anſwer afterward, and the reply therunto.
b A foule beggyng of the queſtion, as if the ſchiſme of a few, were ſo juſt and important a matter, as the delivery of the whole Church, from intended certeyne deſtruction.Reply.
The ſubſtance of this note (touching ſchiſme) being like the ſong of the Aprill bird that hath but one note, I hauehave often anſwered. Though we were ſuch Schiſmatiks as the anſwerer chargeth us to be, yet we ought to hauehave that benefite of law which Paule claimed even in Nero his time, and was not denyed it. Acts 25.12.
G. Powelc Theſe pure Angels of light thinke all the world in darknes, beſides themſelues.
Theſe ſcoffes can hardly come from a pure mind, but doe rather beſeeme prophane Angels of darknes, then the children of light:Reply. much leſſe the Preachers of holines. Whether we that are depriued and ſilenced, are fitter for the worke of the miniſtery, then 5000. in the land that ſtand for miniſters, and receaue the wages of Miniſters; I will not ſay, let the whole High Court of Parliament iudge, but, let many of the Prelats and other conformitans judg.
G. Poweld An impudent untruth of a falſe Prophet. They made themſelues uncapable of any place in the miniſtery.
Reply.Let all thoſe that charge us with impudency, and making our ſelues uncapable of the miniſtery, take heed that one day, they be not aſhamed before the Sonne of God at his cō myng: and that then alſo the Sonne of God be not a ſhamed of them, before his Father and his holy Angels, and ſo pronoūce them uncapable of the kingdome of heaven; yea, leaſt alſo the maſter of ſuch a ſervant come in an houre, that he is not ware of, cut him of, and giuegive him his portion with hypocrites. Mat. 24.50.51. Michael the Archangell durſt not blame the Devill with curſed ſpeaking, but ſayd, the Lord rebuke thee. Iud. 9. You know what is written by an orator, of an orator. Ex eius ore, verba magno impetu atque aeſtu erumpebant, non ſecus ac feruentes aque ebulliunt et exiliunt. That which is ſayd of his words, may be ſayd of the reproches, raylings, ſcoffings etc: of this notary. But are we falſe Prophets? Falſe Prophets runne before they are ſent. They ſpeake out of their owne hearts, they follow their owne ſpirit, and hauehave ſeene nothing. Eze 13.2.3. Ierem. 14.14. They flatter, & heale the hurt of Gods people with ſweete wordes, ſaying, Peace, peace, where there is no peace. Ierem. 8.11. They are hypocrits, pretending great holines, commyng in ſheeps apparell, but being inwardly ravenyng wolues. Math. 7.15. They are covetous and cruell like a roaring Lion, ravenyng the pray, devouring ſoules; taking riches and preciouss things etc: Ezech. 22.25. They are proud and ambitious, loving the prayſe of men, more then the prayſe of God.
Can we be charged with theſe thinges? Hath not the Lord ſent us? Doe we ſpeake any thing but that the Lord hath put into our mouthes? Our flattery conſiſteth in playne reprehending of ſinne, and denouncyng the judgment of God againſt the ſame. Our covetouſnes is inſpendyng all we hauehave, and leaving nothing to our poſteritie. Our cruelty is in ſuffering the manifold injuryes that are done unto us. Our hypocriſie is in a care of keeping a good conſcience. Our ambition is in the abaſing of our ſelues, beneath the parentage and education of many of us: and in bearing the ſcornes & reproches of the world, yea, in beyng accoumpted the skumme of the world and contemned by ſome, that hauehave been glad of the cruſtes that hauehave come from ſome of our tables. Why then doth this Notary call the author of thoſe Arguments, or any other by him pleaded for in his Arguments, by this odious name of a falſe Prophet? If the Lord rebuke him for ſo calling us, I pray that it may not be in anger. Touching our in capacitie of any place in the miniſtery, wherfore are we ſo incapable? What be our errours in doctrine? What are our vices in life? Is conformity the cheife and moſt cardinall virtue? Is it the ſoule of a miniſter, tota in toto, et tota in qualibet parte? Muſt all learnyng, all piety, all gravity, all ſoundnes giuegive place to conformity? So it ſeemeth. For learned men, godly men, graue men, and ſound Divines (I ſpeake not of my ſelfe, I confeſſe my ſelfe the meaneſt of many hundreds) ſuch men (I ſay) are thruſt out, and ignorant men, wicked men, young men, corrupt and Popiſh men, are put into the ſervice of the Church. May we not ſay, Plead thou our cauſe O Lord etc? pſal. 35.1. Yea rather may we not ſay, Ariſe O Lord, maynteyne thine owne cauſe: remember thy dayly reproches by the foo: man. pſal. 74.22.
G. Powele They meane their Preſbyterie.
Reply.This is but a ſcoff and mocke. But though we be mocked, yet let this mocker remember, that God is not mocked. The author ſpeaketh expreſly of the miniſtery of the goſpell which is for inſtruction, this Notary ſaith, he meaneth thereby, their Presbytery, which is for goverment. But more of this afterward.
G. Powelf Note this, They would hauehave all the Biſhops removed & deprived.
Doe you gather this, becauſe mention is made of removyng of the lets and impediments of the ſincere miniſtery of the goſpell? Reply.Then it ſeemeth that either you would hauehave a ſharpe phiſitian for the caſting of waters, ſith you can ſee ſuch inviſible things in a mans words, or elſe that your owne conſcience told you that the Biſhops are great lets and impediments to the ſincere miniſtery of the goſpell. If you be of that minde and ſhew the ſame, it wilbe no ſmall let and impediment to your owne preferment with the Biſhops, If you be not, then ſurely this your note is not worth the noting.
G. Powelg If we profeſſe Chriſt and maintayne his goſpell, what doe they plead for then? VVherefore hauehave they denyed it all this while, pretending they labour for nothing but the goſpell, & the miniſtery therof?
What an untruth is this? Where hauehave we denyed Chriſt here to be profeſſed,Reply. and his goſpell maynteyned? But though we profeſſe Chriſt & maynteyne his goſpell, yet we plead, 1 for the better continuance of the goſpell where already it is: 2 That ſo it may the better be where it is not: 3 That it may be more glorified, and the better floriſh and fructifie in all places: all which thinges cannot be, if the proceedinges begunne be not ſtayd and mitigated. 4 May not a kingdome in generall profeſſe Chriſt and maynteyne his goſpell, and yet hauehave ſome ſuperfluityes, which obſcure Chriſt and hinder his goſpell; as alſo want ſome thinges belonging to Chriſt and his goſpell, which may make Chriſt more glorious, and further his Goſpell?
G. Powel.h Lo: now the Diſciplinariay ataxie, for which the ſuppliants plead ſo much, is whole Chriſt Ieſus. Intollerable blaſphemie.
So cryed the High Preiſt,Reply. when Chriſt confeſſed himſelfe to be the Sonne of the livyng God. Math. 27.65. If it had pleaſed you notwithſtanding, you might in charitie hauehave otherwiſe vnderſtood the authors words. But let the meanyng be as you take it: hauehave you caught him in any trap? Nothing leſſe. For what elſe can be gathered, but that in the profesſion of the goſpell here in England, there are defects and wants? That the Church of Chriſt among vsus, is in ſome ſort defectiue? And although we hauehave Chriſt in his word and Sacraments, and in other exerciſes of religion, yet we hauehave not whole Chriſt, in that we hauehave not all his ordinances? And that therefore ſome thing more ought to be added, that Chriſt may raigne more fully & abſolutely over us? Neither is there any ſuch ataxie in the Diſcipline by theſe wordes ſignified. For we deſire nothing but the order, wherin the Apoſtle reioyced. Coloſ. 2.5. Whereof alſo we hauehave the rudera, and (as it were) the ſtumps yet remaynyng, in our Pariſhionall Church-wardens and ſidemen: though intituled with other names, and wanting that ordination and authority, which with the Paſtors within there owne Pariſhes, Elders ought to hauehave. This Diſcipline (if we might hauehave equall hearing) we could caſily free from all ſuch imputations, as wherby it is commonly diſgraced by the adverſaryes therof with Princes and Nobles. Yea we could plainely and truely ſhew the ſame to be nothing prejuditiall, but very helpfull both to all Royall authority, and alſo to Nobility: yea better agreeyng with the one and the other, then all other inventions of men for Eccleſiaſticall goverment whatſoever. Touching the intollerable blaſphemie, imputed in the end of this note to the author of the Argumēts by way of an exclamation, it lyeth upon them, that feare not openly to deny Chriſt Ieſus to be law giver and King of his Church. How it can be caſt upon us, for deſiryng whole Chriſt Ieſus (I meane all his ordinances) I can not diſcerne.
Further anſwer to the Fith Argument.
G. PowelZeale and courage for defence of Gods truth and Church is commendable: but it were raſhnes and foole hardines: for any to adventure hazard and danger, by intermedling in a frivolous quarrell, and in a cauſe not juſtifiable.
Reply.Now you pay home indeede. If Cardinall Wolſey were livyng, he could ſpeake no more imperiouſly. For except by a frivolous quarrell, and a cauſe not iuſtifiable, you meane not the cauſe of the Miniſters; you ſpeake nothing to the purpoſe. If you meane that (as needes you muſt) then doe you not ſpeake to vsus poore Miniſters alone, but alſo to the Parliament, and to all other (Noble men or gentlemen) that hauehave intermedled,M Powels cenſure of the Parliament houſe. or ſhall intermedle in our cauſe. Yea, them you doe not cunnyngly, but openly & playnly, charge all ſuch with raſhnes and foolehardines. If you had been a man that in heart had not cared for the oppoſition of any, yet this ſpeech would ſcarſe hauehave beſeemed your perſon. One of us for halfe ſo much againſt the meaneſt Prelat, yea againſt the baſeſt Chancellor, ſhould hauehave payd full ſweetly. But your ſide ſeeme to hauehave privilege of ſpeake and writing what you pleaſe againſt any, yea againſt many: yea againſt the High Court of Parliament. Yea, againſt whole Churches and kingdoms For the reſt if we cannot make our cauſe good and juſtifie the ſame, ſo that all your ſide ſhall not be able ſubſtantially to anſwer, without ſcoffing, rayling, wrangling and ſophiſticating, then let our quarrell be accounted frivolous, and our cauſe not juſtifiable.
G. PowelThere are great ods betweene theſe examples propoſed, and the refractarie miniſters caſe.
There ſhould be ſuch ods.Reply. For the author reaſoneth not á ſimilibus or paribus, from likes or equalls, but from the leſſe to the greater.
G. PowelIn the tyme of Nehemiah, the Iewes by long captivity, were in great affliction, the walls of Ieruſalem broken downe etc. But our Church hath long floriſhed, is glorious ſtill, and more and more increaſeth.
I will not ſay your wordes are like to his wordes that boaſted ſaying, I am rich and increaſed with goods, Reply.Revel. 3.17and hauehave neede of nothing: but this I ſay, that all beyng granted that you ſay, doth not hinder but further the cauſe. The more the Church floriſheth, the more eaſie it is to grant that, which the Arguments pleade for. Miniſters alſo of the word, are as neceſſary for the preſerving and increaſing of the glorie of Churches, as for the procuring therof at the firſt. But alas I would God our Church did ſo floriſh as you pretend. Indeed it hath many rich mercyes, God be bleſſed for them; but he that ſeeth not what the Church wanteth, doth not rightly acknowledge that which it hath. Is this the glory of a Church for Prelates to floriſh and flant it out gallantly: and for their men to ruffle it out luſtily? Nay rather, this is the glory of the world, and better beſeeming the Courts of Princes, and houſes of Noble men, then the calling of orthodox Biſhops, who ſhould as well in their life as in their doctrine, preach humilitie, modeſtie, and contempt of the world. The more glorious that Prelats are outwardly, the leſſe glorious (for the moſt part) they are inwardly. Yea it is to be obſerved, that the more the outward glory of Churchmen (as they are called) hath increaſed, the more hath true & inward glory decayed. The more alſo, that the inward and true bewty of the Church hath decayed, the more hath the outward ſtate and pompe of the officers thereof increaſed. When were the Preiſts of the law, of greater outward authority, and tooke more upon thē, then when the church of the Iewes touching true beuty, was in worſt caſe? Serch the ſcriptures for they beare witnes heerof. Yea, were there ever ſo many degrees of dignitie in the Church, and doe we ever reade of ſo great ſtate and pompe of the Preiſtes in the former tymes, as there was of the Preiſts, Scribes & Phariſes at the firſt commyng of Chriſt? And were ever things in ſo bad caſe before, as thē they were? So alſo ſinc that, the more that truth of doctrine, and puritie of Diſcipline decayed in the Church, after the golden and moſt glorious age of the Apoſtles, the more did the Church grow unto, and ſwell in outward riches, pomp and glory. Experience alſo teacheth, that the more glorious Prelats are in their outward ſtate, the leſſe benefite the reſt of the Church hath by them; becauſe they take the leſſ paynes; at the leaſt, ſuch paynes, as are moſt agreable to the true Epiſcopall and miniſteriall calling, deſcribed in holy ſcripture. Wherein then is the true glory of the Church? 1 in ſuch miniſters of the word and other officers; as Chriſt hath commended. 2 In the performance of ſuch dutyes by them, as he requyreth, that is in preaching the word faithfully, in adminiſtring the Sacraments ſincerely, in praying zealouſly and aptly according to the necesſityes of the Church, and in executyng Diſcipline wiſely, and juſtly: 3 In the effects of the former two, viz: in true knowledge, faith, louelove, zeale, humility, patience, temperance, righteouſnes, peace, etc. Touching theſe thinges, the more we want ſom of thoſe officers that Chriſt hath cōmended by his Apoſtles to the Church, and the more negligent thoſe that we hauehave are in their duties, the more lamentable it is to ſee the carved pillers of the temple broken downe, and the faithfull workmen in Gods houſe to be caſt out, by whoſe labors it had been before built & brought to ſome good bewty. Touching the laſt, what chriſtian heart is ſo ſtony, that it doth not mourne? What eye ſo drye, that it doth not ſhead teares, yea rather, guſh out with teares, to conſider and behold, the meſery of our ſuppoſed glorious Church, by the ſpirituall nakednes, blindnes & poverty therof? I meane the great ignorance, the ſuperficiall worſhip of God, the fearfull blaſphemies and ſwaringes in houſes, and ſtreates, ſo alſo the direfull curſings, the open contempt of the word & Sacraments, the wicked profanations of the Lords dayes, the diſhonor of ſuperiours, the pride, the cruelty, the fornications, adultryes, and other uncleanneſſes, the dronkennes, the covetouſnes, the uſuryes, and other the like abominations, almoſt as grevous as either heertofore in the tyme, or now in the places of Popery, when, and where, there was no preaching at all of the goſpell? O M. Powel, and yee my Reverend Fathers, and brethren in the miniſtery (even of the conformable ſorte, flatter not your ſelues in this behalfe, but behold and pity the wofull and lamentable ſtat of our Church in theſe things.
But to returne, heerin you erre not a litle, in that you confound the ſtate of the Church, and of the common wealth of the Iewes. The Common wealth was indeed at that time, in much miſery. But was the Church alſo amongſt them, for ſuch thinges as wheerin cheifely conſiſteth miſery, in as bad condition? Had they not thoſe officers that God had preſcribed? Were the Preiſts and Levits either ſo ignorant, or ſo idle, or ſo ſcandolous, as many called Miniſters amongſt us? Were the faithfull and paynfull Preiſts and Levites, ſo urged to the obſervation of mens traditions and Ceremonyes in the worſhip of God, and otherwiſe ſo moleſted, as now many godly miniſters are? Were the people ſo blind, ſo irreligious, ſo unrighteous as now they are? Were the godly forced to heare dumme dogges, or corrupt teachers? Or reſtrayned from hearing of thoſe that preached wholſome doctrine, or urged to communicate with the Preiſtes in humaine Ceremonyes, to the greife of their ſoules, and wounding of their conſciences, as many now are? The Lord giuegive you all ſuch conſideration of theſe thinges, that yee may not ſo much labour for outward pompe, preferments, honors, dignityes etc. As for the true felicitie of our Engliſh Ieruſalem and Sion, that God may build up the walles therof, and ſtill louelove, and delight therin.
G. PowelAs Nehemiah having by prayer and faſting, found favour with an heathen King for the building of Ieruſalem, was reſiſted and hindred, by Sanballat, Tobiah, Geſhem etc. So worthy Nehemiah in the beginning of our religious Soveraignes reigne, finding grace for the continuance of the proſperous eſtate of our Church, begunne in the dayes of our bleſſed Queene, ſo many Sanballats, Tobiahs and Geſhems, as there be refractary miniſters and Papiſts, deryding and deſpiſyng us, labor to hinder our miniſtery etc.
The ods that before he ſpake of,Reply. now he maketh likes. Is this to diſpute ad idem, and to the purpoſe?
Touching his worthy Nehemiah (whom he compareth to auncient good Nehemiah,) let this be obſerved, that although he ſpeake of the prayer and faſting of the auncient Nehemiah, yet he ſpeaketh not of any prayer and faſting of his newe Nehemiah. What may be ſuſpected or noted heerin, I leaue to the conſideration of the wiſe and judicious reader, that remembreth what oppoſition many of the Prelats hauehave alwayes made to true faſting, and that alſo knoweth what be the thinges which men may ſafely commēd in prayer unto God, eſpecially, for which they may humble themſelues extraordinary in faſting before God. Touching the Tobiahs, Sanballats, and Geſhems, (whom fayne he would hauehave to be thoſe that he calles refractary miniſters, as well as the Papiſts,) let him not deceaue himſelfe heerin. For the wiſe & Chriſtian readers, are able to diſcerne, thē to be moſt worthy of theſe nāes, that ſtriue moſt for mens precepts, that ſtudy more to pleaſe men then God, that preach not themſelues, and hinder them that would: whoſe cheefe worke, is not to encreaſe God his kingdome, but to uphold their owne, fearing nothing more then the downefall therof: which alſo feed not the Lords people, with the bread of eternall life, but their owne bodyes with the meate that periſheth and with all carnall delights: who care not to enrich the Lords people, with durable riches, that ſhall not be taken away, but plod day and night to enrich themſelues in this world, and to build great houſe for their poſteritie. Such are indeed the Sanballats, Tobiahs, and Geſhems, that doe moſt oppugne the ſpirituall building of the ſpirituall Ieruſalem. Now although this anſwerer, & other not much vnlike thoſe before deſcribed, for a tyme reproch and ſcorne vsus, by ſuch odious names and compariſons; yea, plough upon our backes and make long furrowes, yet the righteous Lord, in the end ſhall plead our cauſe againſt them, and bring forth our righteouſnes even as the mornyng Sunne; it may be in this world, that even thoſe that hauehave been through their raylings, and ſuggeſtions againſt us, hardly perſwaded of us, may at the laſt ſee and acknowledge our innocency: if not, yet in the world to come, when the longer the equity of our cauſe hath been obſcured and diſgraced, the more glorious it ſhalbe made, when ſome of our adverſaries (without repentance in the meane time) ſhall be throwne into the place, where is weeping and gnaſhing of teeth:pſal. 129.4, and where to be indeed, is more then only to dreame thereof. Yea, the ſame righteous Lord ſhall (certaynely one day) cut the cords of the wicked. They that hate Sion, ſhall be aſhamed, and turned backward.
G. PowelWee ſtill thinking moſt of theſe men to ſinne of ignorance, ceaſe not to pray unto God, O Lord open the eyes of theſe men, and lay not this ſinne to their charge.
See how this man tumbleth up and downe, and how he contradicteth himſelfe.Reply. Hath he not before expreſly charged all of us, contradiction.to doe that which we doe for carnall reſpectes? Hath he not alſo in the ſame place (I meane in his preface) as expreſly ſayd, (ſpeaking not particularly of ſome of us, but indefinitly of all) that it cannot be denyed, but that preſumptuouſly; and wilfully, we contend with the Magiſtrate, impugnyng his authority. etc. How often elſe wher alſo doth he object unto us, wilfullnes, obſtinacy etc? Yea in the very next Argument, the note with (d) chargeth us with wilfulnes and ſuperſtitious obſtinacy: yet here, he ſayth that moſt of us ſinne of ignorance. If alſo he and other prayed in truth, that God would open our eyes, then let thē not plucke our tongues out of our heads: and ſo thirſt for our bloud, as many ſpeeches in this anſwer ſeeme to bewray then to doe.
G. PowelIn Eſters time, all the Iewes were in danger to hauehave been ſwalowed up by Haman, if Queene Heſter had not interceded. I hope the Supplicāts thinke not our Church to be ſo deſperat, neither outwardly nor ſpiritually.
The whole Church of one place,Reply. and a whole kingdome, may fare the worſe for the ſinne of ſome one: yea, ſomtims long after the death of him,Ioſh. 7:11. 2 Sam. 21. by whom that ſinne was committed. All Iſraell for the cruelty of Saule towards the Gibeonits (who yet were not Iſraelits) were puniſhed, even in their bodily ſtates, long after the death of Saule. May we then feare nothing to our whole Church and kingdom, for the hard dealing of the Prelats, towards the ſoules of many thowſands of our owne Nation? Let no man deceaue us with vayne words. Bleſſed is the man that feareth alwayes. There is danger in ſecurity,Epheſ. 5.6 Pro. 28.14. there is much ſafety in a godly feare. As for the ſpirituall danger of the Church, it appeareth by the decay of the ſpirituall bewty, and by the encreaſe of the ſpirituall deformitie, that is of ignorance & of impiety, in thoſe places already, which are depriued of their good Miniſters. How will theſe thinges increaſe in continuance of time? Yet it may be, that as the more the Aegyptians by oppresſion laboured to ſuppreſſ the Iſraelits, the more they multiplyed: ſo the more that Prelats ſhall oppreſſe and ſilence us, the more God ſhall change the mindes of the conformitans themſelues, to diſlike thoſe thinges, which yet a litle they yeeld unto. If they ſhall hold their peace, yet God ſhall open the mouthes of children to giuegive him prayſe, and to beare witnes unto his truth: If they alſo be ſilent, the Lord can make even the ſtones to crye.
G. PowelThe examples of Ioſeph and Nicodemus, are altogether impertinent. For neither had Pilat any reaſon, to deny the buriall of Chriſts body: neyther is the miniſters requeſt, concernyng croſſe and ſurplice, of ſuch importance as the buriall of Chriſts body: for it is not true that they contend about whole Chriſt.
Reply.The Argument ſpeaketh of the honorable buriall of Chriſts body, the anſwerer onelyonly of the buriall, leaving out honorable; Is not this ſophiſtry? Though perhaps Pilate had no reaſon, to deny the buriall of Chriſt; yet Chriſt beyng put to death (in part) for ſuppoſed treaſon,Sophiſtry: he had carnall reaſon, to deny honorable buriall: the more becauſe of the ſpite and mallice of the Scribes and Phariſes againſt Chriſt.Iohn 19.12 For as before, when they ſayd, he that maketh himſelfe a King, ſpeaketh againſt Ceſar, he made the more haſt to judgment againſt him, ſo he had cauſe in feare of their like hatred and mallice, to be the ſlower in granting his body to them to be buryed, who he knew in reſpect of their honorable perſons and places, would bury it in the moſt honorable manner they could. As Pilat had cauſe to feare the mallice of the Scribes and Phariſes heerin, ſo alſo and much more, had Ioſeph & Nicodemus cauſe to feare the ſame, by performyng the leaſt honorable ſervice vntounto Chriſt: eſpecially Nicodemus, being one of the ſame coate might feare it. If the Miniſters requeſt concerning Croſſ and Surplice, be not of ſuch importance, as the buryall of Chriſts body, this weakeneth not, but addeth ſtrenght to the Argument. For the leſſe it is, the more eaſily it may be granted, and the more eaſily it may be granted, the more boldly it may be ſued for.