A Mild and Just Defense of Certain Arguments, Tract · Part 3 · Argument 12 – Argument 14
THE 12. ARGVMENT.
Iames 5.6 Apoc. 5:8: Ezra 6:10 Ceneſ: 20:7The prayers of all the godly are much to be eſteemed. Eſpecially of the Miniſters of the word. Ergo In this behalfe the Miniſters now troubled, are the more to be reſpected.
Marginall notes.
G. Powela True: if they continue diligent in their vocation: But beyng mē bers, rent and cut from the body of the Church of God in this land, they are unſerviceable for the ſame:
What man? HaueHave you unchriſtened us? Are we now Heathen and infidells agayne? It may be you will ſay we are worſe;Reply. lib: de Adiaphoris: yea you hauehave already called us Apes. Before alſo in a note we hauehave been ſecretly compared to ſwyne. But how then doe you call us your brethren? He is certaynly of a ſtrange ſtocke, that hath Schiſmatikes, falſs prophets, heathens and infidells, Apes and ſwyne to his brethren. But it were good that ſome of the Prelats that made the Canons and doe execute the ſame, did conſider, in what danger they are by the ſtatute of Excommingment, for making and executing Canons contrary to former laws, and ſtatuts of this kingdome. Heere agayne behold, the admirable efficacy of conformity, as that wherein conſiſteth the life of the Church, and wherby men are members, yea Angels of the Church in England: & without which, men are not ſo much as members thereof.
G. Powelb Are they faithfull that fall from their rule of obedience?
Reply.So long as we keepe our ſelues to Gods word, we fall not from our rule or obedience. For we acknowledge no other rule or obedience. Luther left the rules and obedience of Monks: ſo many other left other rules of Popery. Yet, I hope you will not deny thē to hauehave been faithfull, or call them ſchiſmatikes. As for your rule and obedience of Conformity in ſome perticulars, many of us hauehave not fallen from them: Firſt becauſe we never yelded to them. 2 Becauſe to leaue Conformity, is not to fall, that is to goe downward; but to ariſe, that is to goe upward. Bittter rootes ſpring up, that is, come out of the earth frō beneath.Heb: 12:15 prov. 15:24 Iames 1.17. But the way of life is on high, and every good and perfect gift commeth from aboue. They that hauehave left conformity, are more aſhamed and greived for having been Conformable, then for leavyng it, though they pay ſweetly for it.
Further anſwer to the 12. Argument.
G. Powel1 Neither are the prayers of Schiſmatiks much to be regarded: 2 Neither will the Honorable court of Parliamēt, altogether neglect the refractary miniſters: 3 Nether can the refractary miniſters in charity but pray for the high court, yea in caſe, they did not ſatisfie their deſire:
This anſwer conſiſteth of 3 parts, according as I hauehave noted the ſame. Concernyng the firſt,Reply. it is not much to be denyed if men be ſchiſmatikes indeed, and not only in name. Therefore touchyng that and the ſecond, neither the anſwerer nor all the Prelats in the world: ſhall ever proue us ſchiſmatikes and refractaryes, as they unjuſtly terme us. For the third, albeit the High Court of Parliament would doe nothing in our behalfe, yet we will ſay with Samuell, 1 Samuell 12:13 Geneſ: 20:7 Ezra: 6:10God forbid that we ſhould ſinne againſt the Lord and ceaſe praying for them. Notwithſtanding it cannot be denyed, but that the more juſtice and kindnes we ſhall receiue from them or by them, either at this Sesſion or at any other heerafter, the more we ſhould be both bound and quickened to pray for them. But the zeale of the Parliament, in doeyng ſo much all ready for us as they hauehave doone, is worthy our remēbrance whilſt we liue. Though it hauehave not that ſucceſſe preſently, that we hauehave deſired, yet we know not what it may hauehave in tyme, upon further conſideration thereof by his moſt excellent Majeſty, and by his wiſe and moſt Honorable Counſell. No ſeed groweth preſently: yea the beſt ſeed lyeth longeſt in ground (for the moſt part) before it appeare, eſpecially before it yeeld fruit agayne. That that is doone alſo, ſhall be a good evidence for us, and for the equity of our cauſe, as alſo againſt the Prelats, to all poſteritie; whatſoever reproches, and other indignityes in the meane time we ſuſteyne eyther by their ſpeeches, or by their vnjuſt writyng (vponupon record) againſt us.Contradiction or cōtrarietie. But here is further to be noted, the contradiction or at the leaſt the contrariety of this anſwerer, even in this very part of his anſwer. For in the firſt parte therof he ſayth, the prayers of Schiſmatikes are not much to be regarded. Where his meaning by comparyng theſe words with other his termes of being rent & cut of frō the Church, obſtinat, wilfull etc: muſt needes be, that our prayers are of no regard. In the third parte notwithſtanding, he ſayth that we ought to pray for the Parliament, though they ſhould doe nothing for us accordyng to our deſire. Ought we to doe that which is of no regard, of no uſe, of no benefite, to no purpoſe?math. 12:23 Shall not we giuegive account of every idle word, much more of every idle prayer? Yea are not the prayers of all obſtinat, wilfull, impudent, ſchiſmaticall and ſeditious perſons, and of all lyers, and falſe Prophets (ſuch as he hath often called vsus to be) abominatiō to the Lord?prov: 15:8 How then are we bound to pray for the Parliament, or for any other? Are we bound to doe that tnat is ſinne, and wherof we ſhall giuegive an account?
2 If they had ſtill made conſcience of their duety in their Miniſtery,Reply. their prayers had been much more effectuall.
Behold what conſcience theſe men make of ſubſcription, Croſſ, ſurplice, conformity,G. Powel and other perticular obedience; that make no conſcience of preachyng: yea not of commyng to their flockes once in a yeare; yea ſome not once in 3. or 4. yeares. Is it not ſtrange alſo, that ſurplice and croſſ ſhould ad ſuch efficacie to prayers? How merry then would it be with England, if all men in all places, were forced to were a red, blue, greene, white, or yellow croſſ, vponupon their hats, ſleeues, or breſts etc? And if every man, woman and child might never pray privatly, or publikely, but in a ſurplice? Further I pray God, that ſuch as make ſo light account of our prayers for them, doe not by their hard dealyngs with us, force us to cry for help from God againſt them, and then feele the virtue and efficacy of our prayers in this behalfe, to their greife. For ſhall not God aveng his elect, which cry day and night unto him, Luc: 10:7:yea though he ſuffer long for them? I tell you he will aveng them quickly. Let not this be lightly thought on. In the meane tyme alſo, how vileſoever our prayers are in their judgements; yet let this anſwerer & all other our greateſt adverſaryes underſtand, that they are not ſo in the ſenſe & feeling of thoſe mercyes, that they doe dayly enjoye, as well by our prayers, as by their owne. For our conſciences bearing witnes, our prayers are of faith, and in truth & louelove, we doubt not, but that the King and whole kingdome, yea our greateſt adverſaryes doe dayly fare the better by them. And this I feare would too ſoone appeare, if they ſhould or could ſuſpend us from praying, as they hauehave doone from preaching.
The 13 Argument.
We muſt pray the Lord of the harveſt, Math: 9:23:38:to thruſt forth laborers into the harveſt. God will not hauehave men onelyonly to pray, but alſo to uſe other meanes. Ergo The High Court of Parliament, muſt be the more carefull, to provide what they may, that godly and paynfull Miniſters whoſe labours God hath already bleſſed, may not by head and ſholders, be thruſt out of the Church, as they are.
There is but one marginall note upon this Argument, which hath been often anſwered.
So alſo hath all his other anſwer to the ſaid Argument touching the ſowyng of the tares of ſedition, ſchiſme, faction, and diſturbing of the peace. All which doe rather be long to them that teach that a true juſtifiyng faith may be loſt, that there is no certeinty of Salvation, that plead for ignorance and an ignorant Miniſtery: (the mother of rebellion and treaſon, and all other ſinnes againſt God & man) and other ſuch like things.
THE 14. ARGVMENT.
Luc: 9:26In the time of perſecution, men ought not to be aſhamed of the word of Chriſt, but to confeſſe and ſpeake for the ſame. Ergo. They ought much more ſo to doe in the tyme of peace, in a kingdome, and to a King and State profesſing the goſpell.
Marginall notes.
G. Powela As if that Diſciplinarian giddines, were Gods word.
Reply.Though you take your pleaſure of us, yet take heed, take heed, you blaſpheme not the ordinances of Chriſt. Such certainly are litle better thē mad men, who impute giddines to the Diſcipline of Chriſt, commaunded to be kept without ſpot and unrebukeable untill his appearing. 1 Tim: 6:13It is no newe thing for them that ſtands for Gods truth to be accounted mad men, 2 King 9, 11 Acts: 26.24 Luc: 15:17:or beſides themſelues, and in theſe dayes, Proteſtants ſcared out of their wits. But let them that now offend this way, and eſpecially that account Gods ordinances to be giddines, let them (I ſay) repent and come to themſelues, leſt the Lord ſtrike them with a farre worſe ſpirit of giddines then yet they hauehave, which will not be caſt out by any meanes, no, not by prayer and faſting.
G. Powelb Here againe the Supplicants confeſſe that we profeſſe Chriſt and his word. Why doe they exclame then?
If you ſo call it, we do exclame as we doe,Reply that we may profeſſe Chriſt and his word more ſincerely, without any traditions of men in Gods worſhip. The Churches of Epheſus, Pergamus and Thyatira, profeſſed Chriſt and his word and had many excellent things in them; yet our Saviour himſelfe exclameth, and calleth them to reformation of the few thinges amiſſe with them. So did Paule to the Churches of Corinth and Galatia.
G. Powelc Feare and weaknes forſooth, becauſe they will not partake with Schiſmatikes.
Let ſcoffers and mockers take heede,Reply. Pſal. 2.4 prov: 1:26 that he that dwelleth in the heaven laugh not: yea that the Lord hauehave them not in deriſion: yea leaſt he laugh at their deſtruction, and mocke when their feare commeth etc.
Further anſwer to the 14. Argument.
G. PowelThe argument followeth not: for refractary Miniſters are neither Chriſt, nor his word, as hath been declared before.
It hath indeed been ſayd before: but by whom, when,Reply. or where hath it been declared and proved? Which of us hath ever ſayde that we are Chriſt or his word? As the Church is called Chriſt. 1. Cor. 12.12. ſo both the Miniſters & all true beleevers are the Miniſters of Chriſt. Laſtly, they that ſtriue againſt humane Ceremonyes in Gods worſhip, and for the ordinances onelyonly of Chriſt Ieſus, doe ſtriue alſo for Chriſt and his word.