A Trial of the Romish Clergys Title to the Church, Text and commentary · Quoted chapter 16 · Commentary 2 – Commentary 4
A. W.
This generall diſcourſe of yours hath bene generally ſo weak, and ſo little to purpoſe, that you are now as new to begin, as you were at the firſt. Shall I runne ouer theſe particulars here mentioned? iChap. 1.True faith is neceſſarie to ſaluation. But not ſuch a faith, as you require, which muſt be kChap. 4.entire, whole, and ſound in all points, ſo that the misbeleeuing of any one ſhould be damnable. 2. This faith is to be learned (ordinarily) of the miniſters of the true Church: but not to be taken vponupon their credit, without any examination of that they deliuer, by the word of God. 3. lChap. 5.There is no ſuch Church, and much leſſe any ſuch mChap. 11. & 12.continuance and viſibilitie of it, as you imagine, though it may be ſaid, there is one Church: becauſe all true Churches agree in the ſame doctrine of the Goſpell, as farre as is neceſſarie to ſaluation, ſo that none of them ouerthroweth the foundation. nChap. 13.There are alſo certaine markes, by which true Churches may be diſcerned from falſe: but oChap. 15.thoſe you name, as you vnderſtand them, neither are to be found in euerie true Church, and (to the vttermoſt of mans iudgemēt) may be in heretical Churches. Now whereas you ſay, that thoſe foure One, Holy, Catholicke, Apoſtolicke, are certainely knowne to be the properties of the true Church; there is no certaine knowledge which are good markes, either by the Nicene Creed, or by the Fathers, but onelyonly by the Scriptures: and neither that Creed, nor the Fathers do approoue of theſe for markes of a true Church, in ſuch ſenſe as you vrge them.
A. D. §. 2.
Now it will be good to ſee, if we can by theſe generall grounds conclude, which particular company of men is the true Church of Chriſt: a concluſion of exceeding great conſequence, as touching all matters in controuerſie concerning the doctrine of faith, as may appeare, by the drift of all my former diſcourſe. For the framing of which concluſion, we ſhall not need to bring in compariſon, all the companies or ſects of diuers religions, that hauehave bene and are in the world: becauſe euerie one can eaſily diſcerne of themſelues, and eſpecially by the helpe of that which hath bene ſaid, that neither Turks, nor Iewes, nor whatſoeuer other infidels, can be the true Church of Chriſt; becauſe theſe neither hauehave the name of Chriſtians, neither do they profeſſe to hauehave the name of Chriſt. Neither am I now to meddle with heretickes and ſchiſmatickes of former ages, the which as they hauehave bin condēned, by the generall conſent of the Church, ſo in continuance of time, they hauehave bin worne out by the ſame Church, in ſo much, that euen the memorie of them (God be thanked) ſeemeth to be periſhed with them.
A. W.
Out of all doubt, if your generall grounds be true, it is poſſible to conclude by them, which particular companie, or rather companies, are true Churches of Chriſt. For neither can the markes of a true Church agree to a falſe: neither are they ſuch, as cannot be diſcerned where they are.
Of Iewes and Turkes indeed there can be no queſtion: but what ſay you to the Greeke Churches, and their Patriarckes, who pleade all theſe points for themſelues, as well as you do, and are able to make as good proofe of their Vnitie, Holineſſe, Catholickneſſe, and Apoſtolickneſſe? Yet are you farre from acknowledging theſe to be true Churches of Chriſt, becauſe forſooth they will not come vnderunder the ſlauiſh yoake of your Romiſh Antichriſt. Concerning the heretickes, and ſchiſmaticks of former ages, I would to God Chriſtian Churches were as free of them, as we deſire. But Sathan, who in the beginning of the Goſpell laboured p to choake the good ſeed with his cockle and darnell, though for a time he continued in ſecuritie, and like a ſtrong man armed at all points, poſſeſſed his houſe in peace, hauing procured a generall ſubiection to his eldeſt ſonne Antichriſt your Pope; yet when in this, as it were ſecond birth of the Goſpell, he ſaw his kingdome againe in hazard, he betooke himſelfe to his former ſhifts, and ſpread abroad the poyſon of hereſie in diuers countries; that he might giuegive you his vaſſals occaſion to ſlaunder the doctrine of the Goſpell, as if from it theſe hereſies had riſen. This is one of his deluſions, wherby he deceiues and miſleades many to damnation, though the children of God perceiue his ſubtilty, and reſt vponupon the manifeſt truth of the Scripture, for all Sathans practiſes to diſcredit it by this and ſuch other inconueniences, with which he endeauours to hauehave the preaching of the Goſpell accompanied, for the diſgrace thereof. This courſe alſo he tooke in the firſt beginning of the Goſpell, as it is manifeſt by the multitude and groſſeneſſe of thoſe hereſies, which brake out within the firſt 400 yeares, and were neuer ſince equalled, for number or haynouſneſſe, in twice ſo long a time: that the likeneſſe of Sathans dealing may be an argument of the like truth, he now laboreth to ouerthrow or diſcredit.
A. D. §. 3.
My chiefe queſtion and compariſon therefore ſhall be betwixt the Romane Church (that is to ſay, that companie which communicateth, & agreeth in profeſſion of faith, with the Church of Rome, and liueth vnderunder the obedience (as touching ſpirituall matters) of the Biſhop of Rome, and other Biſhops and Paſtours vnderunder him,) and the Proteſtants (that is to ſay, that companie, which from Luther his time hitherward, hauehave oppoſed themſelues againſt the Romane Church) either all or any one ſect of them; my queſtion (I ſay) or compariſon ſhal be, to which of thoſe two, the foure forenamed marks agree, and conſequently, which of them is the true Church.
A. W.
Here you propound the matter, and argument of this chapter, which you call a compariſon: as if the queſtion were, whether of the Churches be beautified with thoſe foure properties, & conſequently, whether of them is the true Church. But to ſpeak properly, there is no compariſon intended therein. For our queſtion is not, whether your Synagogue, or our congregations, come nearer the ſtate of true Churches (which ſeemeth to be implied in making a compariſon betwixt them) but whether of them are indeed true Churches? If I ſhould compare your Church of Rome, with the Synagogues of the Iewes, the profeſſion of the Mahometans, or the companies of Anabaptiſts, or other Hereticks, I might finde that your doctrine came nearer to the truth, in many points, and ſo were more likely to ſhew me the true Church, or that theſe foure properties agreed better to you then to them. But this compariſon would not ſettle me in the knowledge of a true Church. The point is, as before I ſhewed, the proofe of your Minor, that the Church of Rome is ſhe, to whom thoſe properties belong. For the further confirmation whereof, you vndertake to prooue, that our congregations hauehave no intereſt to theſe titles, and this you do, not by way of compariſon, but by an argument of contraries. But let vsus take it, as it is, and fall to the examination of your proofes, yet ſtill with this prouiſo, that the Church of Rome, cannot be concluded to be the true Church, nor our congregations falſe Churches, though you had, and we wanted all theſe markes, as you vnderſtand them.