A Trial of the Romish Clergys Title to the Church, Text and commentary · Quoted chapter 16 · Commentary 6

A Trial of the Romish Clergys Title to the Church · Text and commentary · Quoted chapter 16 · Commentary 6

p. 338A. W.

He that doth not finde that you are a ſhameleſſe ſlaunderer, lookes verie ſleightly into your report of the Proteſtants congregation. You finde it is not holy. No doubt you are a man of great intelligence, and hauehave made diligent inquirie after the matter. But it well becommeth the Phariſaicall pride of your Romiſh Synagogue, to boaſt of your owne righteouſneſſe, and in compariſon of your ſelues, to deſpiſe all men.

Let vsus ſee what euidence you bring to prooue ſo greeuous an accuſation. Moſt of our men (you ſay) are euidently more wicked then men which liued both in old time, and in later yeares in the Romane Church. How euident you make this, we will conſider by and by. For the preſent, I ſay no more, but that you ſpeake craftily to deceiue vsus, in comparing moſt of our men, with I know not what men, that hauehave liued in the Roman Church. There is no queſtion, but that (generally) the moſt are the worſt, euerie where: becauſe all men are naturally euill, and none good, but by the eſpeciall grace of God working in them. But if you would hauehave dealt plainely, you ſhould hauehave ſhewed, that moſt men in our Churches are more wicked, then moſt men that hauehave liued in your Romiſh Church, ſince it became the bodie of Antichriſt reuealed. For we acknowledge, that the Church of Rome was ſomtimes a true Church of Chriſt, yeelding many worthie martyrs, confeſſors, and other holy men and women, to the honour of the Goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt; yea we denie not, but that euen at this day, there are ſome true Chriſtians in your Churches: and that the generall ſort of Proteſtants, are inferiour to ſome amongeſt you, in p. 339regard of outward holineſſe: as for true inward ſanctitie, neither the one, nor the other, hauehave any part of it; I meane neither ordinarie Proteſtants, nor the beſt of your ſide, who continue in the whole doctrine of your Church.

To prooue that you ſay againſt our Church, you bring vsus in two kinde of witneſſes: firſt generally thoſe men, that hauehave ſeene the conuerſation of your Papiſts, and our Proteſtants, then particularly Luther & Smidelin: In the former, conſider how vaine a floriſh it was for you to compare our men now with Papiſts that liued in old time, and to appeale for proofe to them that hauehave ſeene both: as if you were able to ſhew vsus ſome men of 700, or 800. yeares old, or of 300. or 400, who hauehave knowne and conſidered the behauiour of your men and ours. As for them, that by trafficke or trauaile otherwiſe, hauehave had ſight and experience of both, I dare ſtand to their iudgement, in comparing our liues with yours, for all parts of outward cariage. In which matter, I hauehave bene credibly informed by them, whoſe credit I hauehave no cauſe to ſuſpect, that the abhomination of your Clergies, and peoples liues, hath partly bred, & ſetled in them a reſolute abhorring of your religion, to which otherwiſe they were indifferently affected.

But you preſſe vsus with Luther and Smidelin, who in their earneſt exhortations and reproofes, accuſe our men for increaſe of ſinne, after the preaching of the Goſpell. Is this ſtrange? Doth not ooRom. 6. 1. 14:Rom 6:1Rom 6:14the holye Apoſtle tell vsus, that the Goſpell in his time, was abuſed to wantonneſſe, prophane men (which yet made profeſſion of religion) taking aduantage of Gods gracious merciemercy preached in the Goſpell, to prouoke themſelues to ſinne? Beſides, the greateſt part at the renewing of the Goſpell, claue vntounto Luther, rather in a deteſtation of your religion, the falſeneſſe whereof was moſt euident to them, then in a certaine knowledge of the truth of that, which he taught them. But of whom ſpake Luther and Smidelin? Of all Proteſtant Churches? How can that be, when they knew not the one halfe of them? Is it a good reaſon then to condemne all Proteſtant Churches, or the Proteſtants Church in generall, becauſe Luther and Smidelin complaine againſt p. 340the congregations, in which they taught? And yet, what ſay they more then the Apoſtle Paule doth, who chargeth pp1. Cor. 1. 1. & 15. 12. &1 Cor 1:11 Cor 15:12the Corinthians with many groſſe errors, & grieuous ſinnes, yea qq5. 1. & 6. 1. 5.with ſuch fornication, as was not to be heard of among the Gentiles? What ſay you to that ſore accuſation euen againſt the miniſters of the Goſpell; rrPhil. 2. 21.Phil 2:21All ſeeke their owne, and not that which is Ieſus Chriſts? A man of your humour and wiſedome would by and by conclude hereupon, that the Church of God in the Apoſtles time, was an vnholy congregation. If you Ieſuits & Prieſts (what you are in particular, I neither know nor care) beſtowed as much paines in preaching, as you do in plotting treaſon, and hearing conſeſſions, ſuch ſpeeches would not ſeeme any thing ſtrange vntounto you. But that you may the better perceiue the weakeneſſe of this your reaſon, hearken a little, what is ſaid of your Church. What one can you name me (ſaith ſſBernard. in Cant. ſer. 77.Bernard) among all thoſe, that are (ſpirituall) rulers, that doth not take greater care, how he may emptie the peoples purſes, then how he may roote out their ſinnes? You ſay the moſt of our men are wicked. Bernard, to quit you for it, pronounceth, that there is not one of your Cleargie, that maketh any conſcience of diſcharging his duetie. HaueHave you forgotten what a Biſhop of yours ſaid in the late Councell of Trent, (leaſt any ſhould thinke that you are better now, then you were in Bernardes time?) The people (ſaith ttCornelius. Bitonti. Epiſc. in Concil Tridet.the Biſhop) are fallen away from Chriſt to Antichriſt, from God to Epicuriſme; and the Prieſtes hauehave bene their ringleaders, to all kinde of lewdneſſe. Yea Adrianus in inſtruc. ad Cler.Pope Adrian the ſixt, (I am ſure you will beleeue him) ſpeaking of your Prelates, ſaith, that All of them (he putteth in himſelfe too) xxDeclinauimus.were declined, cuerie one to his owne waies: And that there had bene none of them, a great while, that had done any good, yyNon fuit vſque ad vnum.no not one of them. If ſuch were, and be the ſtate of your Cleargie, geſſe you, what the common people be. Compare your witneſſes and mine, and tell me whether we ouermatch you or no, both in number and weight.

Neuer any Saint of our Church? Why do you not refute that p. 341which we alledge for our ſelues againſt this ſlander? We pleade that Adam, Abel, Enoch, Abraham, and all the holy men named in the Scriptures, with the Martyrs and confeſſors, ſince our Sauiour Chriſts comming in the fleſh, that all the Apoſtles (except Iudas, whom we leaue to your Simoniacall congregation) yea that many Biſhops of Rome were of our Church. To al this you reply not ſo much as one word; but tell them that will beleeue you, that there neuer was any Saint or holy man of our Church. I cannot greatly blame you, though you bind your followers to giuegive credit to you, without looking for proofe of that you deliuer. For if you ſhould be put to that, all were marred. But I wil render you a reaſon, why we lay challenge to all thoſe men, as members of our Church, and not of yours. They agree (ſay we, diſproue vsus if you can) with vsus in the ſubſtance of doctrine, concerning ſaluation by Ieſus Chriſt, and other points of the foundation. If you were able to ſhew the like (which is vnpoſſible) yet would it not follow that they were of your Church: becauſe no man is, in your account a member of your Church, but he that agrees with you in all matters defined by your Church; wherein I confidently anow (and am readie to iuſtifie it) there is no auncient writer in the firſt thouſand years, that is of your opiniō; though in ſome one point or other they may agree with your doctrin. But indeed we hauehave no ſaints canonized by our Church, and made mediators betwixt God and vsus, to rob Ieſus Chriſt of his office, and God the Father a See my anſwer to 12. art. part. 1. art. 4.of thanks due to him for granting our requeſts. And if this want make our Church vnholy, the Church in the time of our Sauiour himſelfe and of his Apoſtles was moſt vnholy, in which there neuer was any ſuch practiſe or doctrine. Indeed this is the maine holineſſe, whereby zzBellar. de notis Eccleſ. lib. 4 cap. 11.the learned of your ſide ſeeke to proue the truth of your Church, and not that other of particular mens conuerſation.

And what ſay you againſt our doctrine in this behalfe? Forſooth, that it cannot of it ſelfe leade the moſt preciſe obſeruers of it to holineſſe. The particulars of our doctrine accuſed by you, ſhall be defended in their ſeuerall places: now a word or two onelyonly in generall. How doth any doctrine leade p. 342to holineſſe, but by propounding the rules of true obedience to God, wherein all holineſſe conſiſts? How doe the arts of Grammer, Logicke, Arithmeticke and Geometry leade a man to ſpeake, reaſon, number, and meaſure well, but by deliuering the true rules to theſe purpoſes, which in themſelues direct to perfection in eueryevery one of theſe profeſſions? And can our doctrine be ſaid to be inſufficient, which acknowledgeth the ſcriptures of God to be the rule of all righteouſneſſe, and all men bound to liue in obedience to the will of God, contained and reuealed in them? Do not we teach men, that vponupon paine of damnation they muſt labour to keepe all Gods commaundements whatſoeuer? Are not our expoſitions of the commaundements as large in duties preſcribed, and ſins forbidden, as yours are? Do we, or you, perſwade men that there are ſome veniall ſinnes, ſmall breaches of Gods law, not to be regarded: whereas we ſhew that eueryevery leaſt tranſgreſſion of the law is damnable? But becauſe you charge vsus with particular points, which incline men (as you ſay) to libertie and looſeneſſe of life, I will come to the examination of them ſeuerally, yet but ſhortly, for that I hauehave anſwered them all in aaAnſwer to 12. Art part. 2. art. 4.another treatife againſt certaine articles propounded by one of your Popiſh faction.

It is vtterly vntrue, that our doctrine inclines any man to breake faſting dayes: nay rather we enioyne all men to obſerue dayes lawfully ſet apart for faſting, with all care and good conſcience, both for preparation to, and cariage in the action. As for your dayes of abſtaining from fleſh, we hold the inſtitution of them to be voyd of Religion, and vnlawfull, as making them in themſelues a part of Gods ſeruice: whereas a man, for all your faſting, may glut and gorge himſelfe with wine and all dainties, ſo he eate no fleſh, and yet keepe your Popiſh faſt, without danger of any cenſure for tranſgreſſing your law of faſting.

Confeſſion of ſinnes to a miniſter, we neither commaund as a neceſſarie dutie, nor forbid as a ſinne, but leaue it free to eueryevery mans conſcience, as he findeth need of inſtruction or comfort. It is ſo far from being a remedie of ſinne, as it is vſed by your church, that it rather prouokes men to ſinne, becauſe they hauehave ſo readie and eaſie a meanes to disburden their conſciences (as p. 343they thinke) when they hauehave ſinned. A worthy gentleman that hath ſeene the experience of this matter, doubteth not to auouch as much as I ſay: that bbRelation of religion in theſe Weſtern parts. ſect. 7.your people ſinne, that they may hauehave ſomewhat to confeſſe: and confeſſe, that they may returne to ſin: yea I can name, and if need be, bring forth one, who hath bene faine in confeſſion to accuſe himſelfe of ſinnes which he neuer committed, becauſe his ghoſtly father would not be perſwaded but that being a young man, and liuing in one of your Popiſh countries, he muſt needs be defiled with the corruptions of the place and age.

There is no one point, wherein you more bewray your ſelues to be ſeruants, and not ſons of God, then this confeſſion againſt your owne ſoules, that you would neglect the doing of good workes, but that you looke to merite euerlaſting life by them. This motiue to good workes is ſo baſe, that no man of a free nature would yeeld vntounto it. The very Philoſophers could teach you, that vertue is to be loued for vertue, and not for any outward reſpect or conſequent that may follow thereupon: and God is more diſhonored by your opinion of meriting, then honored by any your ſuppoſed good workes whatſoeuer. If you had euer felt, what a ſharpe ſpurre to holineſſe of life the aſſurance of forgiueneſſe of ſinnes is, you would neuer thinke that the practiſe of good workes is lightly eſteemed, where the merciemercy of God hath brought peace to the damned conſcience. And yet we want not that other helpe, expectation of reward, which we are ſure ſhal be giuen to the leaſt of our good works, though not vponupon their deſert, but of the meere merciemercy of God in Ieſus Chriſt. That wicked opinion of merit, either before or after grace, doth puffe vp the pride of mans nature, and diminiſh the glorie of Gods merciemercy in Ieſus Chriſt. Wages vponupon deſert, is the hire of ſeruants; reward beſtowed in louelove, is the gift of a kind father to a gracious ſonne, who hath ſhewed himſelf willing to performe duties of obedience.

What men doth it make careleſſe, but thoſe proud Phariſes that ſtand at the ſtaues end with God, and thinke ſcorne to labour in keeping the commandements, vnleſſe they may ſo keep them, as to claime heauen vponupon deſert by keeping of them? p. 344Is it not enough to ſtir vp any poore Chriſtian ſoule to obedience, that God will accept of his weake endeuours, being performed in truth and ſingleneſſe of heart, and reward them with an vnſpeakable meaſure of glorie? There is no man, vnleſſe he be more deſirous of his owne glorie then Gods, but wil be content and glad to confeſſe his vnabilitie to performe the whole will of God perfectly, and yet ſtriue from time to time to doe as much as his corruption will giuegive way to. It ſeemes, that not diuinitie onelyonly, but alſo common reaſon failes you. Shall I be careleſſe in bearing my horſe head, and holding him vp from falling, becauſe I am ſure he treads neuer a ſure ſtep, but will ſtumble or trip continually, do the beſt I can? Put caſe we ſaid, as you ſlaunder vsus, that whatſoeuer we do is ſin: are there therefore no degrees in ſinne? or is it all one, to ſin by infirmitie and wilfulneſſe? What if a ſicke man cannot by any meanes recouer his perfect health againe? ſhall he therefore refuſe to keepe a good diet, and grow to as much ſtrength as for his weakneſſe he can attaine to? But what Proteſtant euer ſaid, that whatſoeuer we do is ſinne? It is one thing to ſay (as we do) ccAnſwer to 12. art. part 2. art. 2.that ſinne by our corruption cleaues faſt to our beſt works, another thing to auouch (as you falſly charge vsus) that all we do is ſinne. Neither is it fooliſhneſſe to feare that which cannot be auoided, if by our feare we can make it leſſe hurtfull to vsus. Yea it is a point of great diſcretion, to labour all we can againſt ſinne, though we cannot wholly rid our ſelues of it, becauſe by this meanes our actions ſhall be free from the imputation of thoſe ſins, and receiue an vndeſerued reward at the hands of God, our mercifull Father in Ieſus Chriſt.

You vndertooke to proue, that the doctrines of our Church are vnholy: now you tell vsus that ſome Proteſtants hold this and that. Is this to make good that you propounded? But what Proteſtants can you name, that euer taught that God moueth men effectually and forcibly, not onelyonly to good workes, but in the ſame ſort See my anſwer to 12. art. part. 2. art. 5.to the act of ſinne? Is it your ignorance or your malice, that maketh you charge vsus with that which we alwayes denie and refute? We ſay, there is no force or coaction either in good or euil actions, and diſtinguiſh betwixt neceſſitie and constraint. p. 345All things come to paſſe neceſſarily, in regard of the euent, according Vide Durandīs in 2. diſt. 25. q. 4. n. 7. & ibi Lomb. et Thom. in 1. diſt. 38 q. 1. et Capreol. in 1. diſt. 38. q. 1. art. 2. ad 2. pro 4. conclu.to the prouidence and predeſtination of God. But this hinders not the working of ſecundary cauſes, according to their ſeuerall natures. Beſides, though we hold that there is a neceſſitie of infallibilitie, as well in good actions as in ſinnes, ſo that whatſoeuer God hath decreed (and he hath decreed all things that come to paſſe) ſhall certainly fall out according to his decree: yet we make a great difference betwixt good and euill actions, by teaching that the one are done by the worke of Gods ſpirit in our hearts, the other by the corruption of our nature, without any warrant or motion in vsus from God. Further, in thoſe good actions which we performe, the Lord doth not onelyonly worke by vsus, as by inſtruments without ſenſe or reaſon, but according to our nature, enlightening our vnderſtanding, and ſweetly inclining our affection, without any force againſt our nature, to the approuing of that which he would hauehave vsus do, and following vsus by the perſwaſion of his ſpirit, till he hauehave brought vsus ineuitably to the performance of that which he hath decreed. So that wee doe nothing, but willingly: but to good we are made willing by God, both for the power and act: to euill we need no aſſiſtance, but the corruption of our owne hearts, and the temptations of the diuell.

Lo whither the malice of Antichriſts vaſſals driues them: both to auouch that for truth againſt the Church of God, which is vtterly falſe; and to gather leud conſequences of true doctrin: and conſider whether they hauehave cauſe to brag of holineſſe, who will do nothing that is good, but for hope of hire, and aduance their owne deſeruings aboue Gods bountie; and then tell me, if you can perſwade your conſcience, that ſuch a companie of Phariſaicall merit-mongers are likely to be the true Church of God.

You confeſſe there be ſome ſinfull folke in the Romane Church: but your confeſſions (if a man might hauehave the hearing of them) would teſtifie that there are none but ſinfull folk amongſt you. It is rehearſed by the ſecretary of Sixtus 5. for a ſingular commendation of Pius the fift, that the Cardinall of Theano, and ddGirol. de Catena in vita de Pio 5. pag. 33.the Biſhop of Bagnarea, who had bin his confeſſors many yeres, p. 346affirmed, that he neuer accuſed himſelfe in confeſſion of any mortall ſinne. And do you come out with There are ſome ſinfull folke, and all in it are not good? Call to minde what I alledged before out of Bernard, againſt your whole Cleargie, that is, as you count, your whole Church. Or let that paſſe, and heare him ſpeake more generally: From the head to the foote (ſaith eeBernar. de conuer. Pauli. ſer. 1.Bernard of your Church) there is no part whole. And againe: The whole multitude of Christian people hath conſpired againſt Chriſt. In ffIn Can. ſer. 33another place he ſaith, that a filthy contagion had ſpred it ſelfe ouer the whole Church. The law (ſaith ggBreidenb. in hiſt. peregr. ſuae.Breiden bachius) is departed from the Prieſts, iuſtice from the Princes, counſell from the auncient, faith from the people, louelove from parents, reuerence from ſubiects, charitie from prelates, religion from Monks, good order from yong men. Neither was it thus onelyonly in places farre diſtant from your holy Fathers ſight, but in his court, vnderunder his noſe, in his bed chamber and ſtudie. There (ſaith hhBern. de conſid. ad Eugē. l. 4Bernard of your Popes palace) the wicked grow forward, the godly grow backward. Whatſoeuer perfidiouſneſſe and deceit (ſaith iiPetrarc. epiſt. 19. See Petrarkes ſonet. 92. 107. 108.Petrarke, who liued in Rome perhaps, ſecretary to the Pope) whatſoeuer vnmercifulneſſe and pride, whatſoeuer impietie and leudneſſe of behauiour the world hath, or hath had ſcattered here and there, all that you may ſee and find heaped vp together in the citie of Rome. kkGiouan. Boccac. nouel. 2.Iohn Boccace, who liued at the ſame time, complaineth, that not onelyonly the courtiers, but alſo the Pope, Cardinals and Prelates liued moſt filthily, and ſinned not onelyonly by naturall lust, but by that too, which is againſt nature, without bridle, remorſe of conſcience, or ſhame. I forbeare to ſet downe any particulars, whereof Platina and other that write the liues of your Popes, are full: becauſe I take no pleaſure in laying open your ſhame, and it is alreadie performed llIohn Bale Eng. votaries. D. Downam of Antich. lib. 1. cap. 6.in diuers of our writers. Only I muſt needs ſay, that I cannot ſufficiently wonder at your boldnes, who talke to Engliſhmen of your holineſſe, when there is no man of our nation ſo yong, or ſo ignorant, but is able to conuince the Pope himſelfe, and his Prieſts and Ieſuites of horrible rebellions and treaſons againſt our late Queene of bleſſed memory, and our whole eſtate. But what ſhall I need to ſeeke far off? Was there euer the like monſtrous and vnnatural example of treaſon & murder p. 347(among the moſt ſauage of the heathen) to that incredible attempt of your holy ones, for the deſtruction of King, Queene, Prince, Nobilitie, Counſell, Iudges, Gentrie and Commons, all at one blow? aaSueton. in Neron.Barbarous and bloudie Nero is abhorred by all men, becauſe he did wiſh that all the Senators of Rome had but one necke, that he might cut them all off at once. But your ſauageneſſe iuſtifies his crueltie: he was but a pidler to your Ieſuites and Papiſts, who with one cracke would hauehave taken away both Senate and people. There is more cauſe of feare, that poſteritie will neuer beleeue the true report of this execrable attempt (it is ſo like rather to a deuiſe of a Poet, then a diſcourſe of an hiſtorie writer) then that they will condemne your whole congregation of more then Turkiſh, or any other heatheniſh barbarouſneſſe. And do you, with a ſhameleſſe brazen forehead, come vponupon the ſtage to brag of holineſſe? Deſpiſe not ſo much the long ſuffering of God, as to make a ſhew of religion, after ſo many abhominable treaſons and murders, ariſing (directly) from the principles of your profeſſion, and agreeing exactly with the ordinarie plots and courſes of your holy Father: bbSee Girol. de Caten. in vita di Pio 5. pag. 112. 113.who in the raigne of our late gracious Soueraigne, practiſed diuers treaſons by his wicked inſtruments. For proofe of that I ſay, let them which vnderſtand Italian, reade the report of his Secretarie, who propounds diuers of them to the commendation of his maiſters zeale, for labouring to reduce to the Church, them that were fallen from the obedience thereunto. But the memorie, and in a manner the feeling of that horrible treaſon, Nouemb. 5. 1605. is yet ſo freſh and greene, that he deſerues not to be held either for a Chriſtian, a true hearted Engliſhman, or a reaſonable man, that lookes for fruites of holineſſe from trees planted in the Popes orchard.

Alas, this proofe might well hauehave bene ſpared. For there is no doubt but your Church of Rome hath ſtore of wicked men: and that you bring out of the Canticles, neither belongs to your Church, nor concernes the vngodly. The Church ſpoken of in that excellent ſong, is the ſpouſe of Chriſt, one fleſh with his holy maieſtie: the companie of the elect, called to true faith in the Son of God. Among theſe there is not one prophane Eſau p. 348or bloudie Cain; ſuch as ccSee Platina in Sylueſt.diuers of your Popes hauehave bene, not onelyonly your ordinarie Papiſts. But this blackneſſe and beautie, how contrary ſoeuer they ſeeme (as ddBern. in Can. Ser. 25.Bernard truly ſaith) belong to one and the ſame perſon. Wilt thou hauehave mee ſhew thee a ſoule (ſaith he) that is both blacke and beautifull? ee2. Cor. 10. 10.2 Cor 10:10His epiſtles, ſay they, are of ſome worth, but his bodily preſence is weake, and his ſpeech contemptible. The blackneſſe is outward in mens ſight, the beautie in ward, ſeene of God. Therefore he addeth ffBern. ubi ſupr. Origen. in Can. homil. 2.a litle after, that A true Chriſtian ſoule is blacke in the iudgement of the world, but faire in the ſight of God and of his Angels. The ſpouſe (ſaith ggBern. in declam. Ecce nos reliqu. omnia.Bernard in another place) is blacke, but beautifull. The Apoſtles are men full of ſorrow, yet alwayes reioycing. Chriſt himſelfe if you looke vponupon him with ſuch eyes as the Iewes did, had neither forme nor beautie. Other refer this to the eſtate of men, before and after their calling: before they are blacke, afterward faire. Other (hhTheod. in cāt. Tres patres apud Theod. for allegories affoord varietie of interpretation) apply it to the Church, mixt of Iewes and Gentiles: which is blacke becauſe of the Gentiles, who before knew not God. iiPſellus a pud Theod.Pſellus maketh the blackneſſe to ariſe from our eſtate in Adam, the beautie from our righteouſneſſe in Chriſt. kkGloſſ. ord. ibi. Bern. in Canti. Ser. 25. Thom. in Cant. cap. 1. lect. 3. Gloſſ. interlin.Song 1Many vnderſtand by blackneſſe, the outward affliction of the Church. None that I hauehave ſeene, but llLyra in Cant.Lyra, expound it of the wicked; and yet he alſo rather liketh of that other interpretation, which maketh this blackneſſe to be according to the conceipt of the world. But I will not greatly ſtriue about the true ſenſe, which is ſo doubtfull: onelyonly I take that expoſition which you bring, to be the worſt, becauſe it cannot agree to the true Church of Chriſt, the companie of the elect called; among whom there are none blacke, that is, wholy wicked, though all be blacke in regard of their nature, and faire in their head Chriſt.

You hauehave laboured to ſhew that the Proteſtants Church is not holy, becauſe it hath no holy men in it. From that point you poſted ouer to proue your owne Church to be holy. Here you returne againe to the diſgracing of our Church, as if your holineſſe were ſo darke in it ſelfe, that it needed ours to be layd vnderunder it for a foyle, that it might ſhew the better. But let vsus p. 349examine your proofe in this compariſon.

If that Church be holy, ſome members whereof hauehave bene holy; that vnholy, no members whereof hauehave bene holy: and ſome members of the Roman Church hauehave bene holy, none of the Proteſtants Church; then the Romane Church is holy, the Protestants Church vnholy.

But that Church ſome members whereof hauehave bene holy, is holy: that vnholy, no members whereof hauehave bene holy: and ſome members of the Romane Church hauehave bene holy, none of the Proteſtants Church.

Therefore the Romane Church is holy, the Proteſtants Church vnholy.

Your Minor is falſe, in both parts of it. For the former, if by To the Aſſumption.holineſſe, you vnderſtand true inward holineſſe, mmChap. 15.according to your former expoſition, no companie may be counted truely holy, becauſe ſome few among them are holy. For true holineſſe is a qualitie proper to them, in whom it is, and ſuch as cannot be communicated to any multitude ioyntly conſidered, nor affirmed of it, vnleſſe the greater part be truly holy. If any man will preſſe me with the Apoſtles authoritie, who calleth, nn1. Cor. 1. 2. & 2. Cor. 1. 1.1 Cor 1:22 Cor 1:1the Corinthians, and all Chriſtians in Achaia Saints: I anſwer, that the reaſon of his ſo calling them, is not becauſe ſome among them were truely holy, but becauſe they all made profeſſion of true faith in Chriſt, which is alwaies accompanied with ſanctification. According to this profeſſion of theirs, the Apoſtle charitably iudgeth of them, and tearmes them oo1. Cor. 1. 2.1 Cor 1:2Saints by calling; as if he ſhould ſay, that they are Saints, becauſe they profeſſe themſelues called to holineſſe of life. This appeareth the rather, becauſe ppEpheſ. 1. 1. Coloſſ. 1. 2.Eph 1:1Col 1:2otherwhere, to be Saints, and to be faithfull is all one: where faithfulneſſe is aſcribed to whole congregations, profeſſing the faith of the Goſpell. Therefore the holineſſe of ſome few, maketh not all the Church truely holy, no more then Eliah, and thoſe ſeuen thouſand reſerued by God, made the whole Church of Iſraell holy in the ſight of God; which was an idolatrous congregation, and vnholy, for all theſe holy men were in ſome reſpect outwardly members thereof.

p. 350But let vsus grant, that the holineſſe of fome few may priuiledge all for this title of holineſſe: yet in the ſecond place, we may iuſtly except againſt the ſtretching of this priuiledge to all that euer ſhall be, by ſucceſſion, of that companie. Were it not ridiculous trow you, for you Romanes that now are, to claime the reputation of valour, or the Iewes the opinion of holineſſe, becauſe the eſtate of Rome, and the Church of the Iewes had many valiant & holy men ſome hundreds of yeares ſince? How then can it be true, that a Church is holy, becauſe it hath had, I know not how long ago, ſome holy men members of it?

The other part of your Minor I acknowledge to be true, that no Church is holy, which hath not ſome holy men members of it. But I ſee not how this can ſtand with your doctrine, qqBellar. de Eccleſ. milit. lib. 3. cap. 10.that it is enough to make a man a true member of the holy Catholicke Apoſtolick Church, that he make outward profeſſion of beleeuing the Goſpell, and obeying the Pope, though he hauehave not Chriſtian vertue in him, no not ſo much as that faith, he maketh ſhew of. For if this ſerue to giuegive vsus the right of being true members, the Church may well be quite without inward holineſſe, as a matter not appertaining to the eſſence, or nature of it.

The laſt part of your Minor is falſe the, Proteſtants Churches hauehave had many thouſand holy men, euen all that euer held the truth of the Goſpell, according to the Scriptures: and your Church neuer had, nor ſhall hauehave any one truly ſanctified, that was wholly a member thereof, after your account, that is, which agreed, or agreeth with you in all points of Antichriſtianiſme. But I will follow you in your courſes, and of this ſay more afterward. Firſt you prooue the latter part, and diſpute againſt our Church in this ſort.

That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holie by miracle, or anie other certaine waie from God, hath had no members of it holy.

But the Proteſtants Church hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy, by miracle, or any other certain way from God.

p. 351Therefore the Proteſtants Church hath had no members of it holy.

I denie your Maior, becauſe it will follow vponupon granting it, To the propoſition.that no man is truly to be counted holy, but he that is declared to be ſo, by miracle or ſome other certaine way from God. For your whole diſcourſe ſheweth, that this is your meaning, where you tell vsus, that No man can be knowne to be holy, but by Gods teſtimonie of his holineſſe by miracle, or ſome other certaine way: Of miracles by and by: In the meane while I would faine know, what theſe other certaine waies are, which God vſeth, to giuegive vsus aſſurance of this, or that mans holineſſe: will you tell vsus a tale of I know not what reuelations, out of your Legends and bookes of examples, which are full of ſuch fained apparitions? Legend. aurea, & ſpeculum exemplar. paſſim.Put caſe thoſe lewde lies were true tales, and that the miracles deuiſed by ſome of your complices, were worthie of credit: ſurely the number of them that hauehave bene truely holy, Gabriel. Biel. in Can. miſs. lect. 49.hath bene verie ſmall, if no more hauehave bene holy, then can pleade ſuch miracles or reuelatiōs for proofe of their holineſſe. As for thoſe, that hauehave teſtimony of their holineſſe from God in the Scriptures, both they are verie few, in compariſon, for ſo many thouſand yeares: and that meanes of ſhewing who are holy, ceaſſed aboue one thouſand foure hundred yeares ſince.

Now concerning Miracles, why ſhould we in theſe daies, Mat. 16. 3. 4.Matt 16:3Matt 16:4gape after them, like the vnbeleeuing Iewes, for the confirmation of any mans holineſſe, ſince we hauehave no warrant, nor example of Scripture, to apply them to any ſuch purpoſe? Bring me one example, if you can, out of the whole Scripture, of any miracle wrought, to prooue any man to be holy. The vſe of miracles is the confirmation of doctrine, or rather the auowing of mens calling from God, that their doctrine may be receiued. If I do not the works of my Father (ſaith ttIoan. 20. 37. 38.John 20:37John 20:38our Sauiour) beleeue me not: but if I do, then though ye beleeue not me, yet beleeue the works, that ye may know, and beleeue that the Father is in me, and I in him. uuIoan. 20. 31.John 20:31Theſe things are written, that ye might beleeue that Ieſus is that Chriſt the ſonne of God. To that end did our Sauiour furniſh his Apoſtles with power to worke miracles: p. 352xxMat. 10. 7. 8Matt 10:7Matt 10:8As ye go, preach, ſaying, the kingdome of God is at hand. Heale the ſicke, cleanſe the leaprous, raiſe vp the dead. Therefore doth yyPacian. ad Sympro. Epi. 3.Pacianus require miracles of the Nouatians, becauſe they brought in a new Goſpell. And why (I pray you) do zzMat. 24. 24.Matt 24:24falſe Prophets that ariſe, ſhew many great ſignes and wonders? To prooue themſelues to be holy? No ſurely: if they deſire an opinion of holineſſe, it is that their doctrine might the rather be receiued.

But to proceed yet further; if no man be holy, that hath not miracles, to teſtifie his holineſſe, I doubt much, whether any man may be thought holy or no. For it is out of queſtion, that wicked men hauehave wrought miracles, either truely, or at leaſt (which I rather beleeue) in ſhew, ſo that men could not diſcerne the contrarie. Shall I need to name aaExod. 7. 21. 22. & 7. 8.Exod 7:21Exod 7:22Exod 7:8Pharaoes ſorcerers? Doth not bbMat. 24. 24.Matt 24:24the Scripture tell vsus, that falſe Chriſts, and falſe Prophets ſhall ſhew ſignes and wonders? Doth not cc2. Theſs. 2. 9.2 Thess 2:9the Apoſtle forewarne vsus, that Antichriſt ſhal come with ſignes, and lying wonders? Your owne ſchooleman, ddGabr. Biel. in Can. Miſſae. lect. 29.Gabriel Biel telleth vsus, that miracles are wrought often times, by the operation of diuels. And eeLyra. in Dan. cap. 14.Lyra is not afraid to ſay, that Now and then there is great deceit vſed in the Church, by miracles fained by the Prieſts, or ſome that are about them, for their worldly commoditie. Your Church affoordeth vsus examples of notorious lies in this kinde. I will name two of your principall Saints. ffTom. 2. opuſc. tract. de concept. virg, ca. 5.Saint Bridget auoucheth that it was reuealed to her, that the Virgin Marie was preſerued from Originall ſinne: ggKather. ſer. 5.Saint Katharin of Syena had a quite contrarie reuelation. From whom rrow you came theſe miracles? Many miracles (ſaith hhTheophyl. in Luc. 9.Luke 9Theophylact) hauehave bene done by the diuell. And iiAuguſt. de unit. Eccleſ. cap. 16.Sir 16Auſtin ſpeaking of ſuch wonders alledged by the followers of Donatus, reiecteth all ſuch, as deuiſes of lying men, or illuſions of deceitfull ſpirits. Let vsus heare your great Maſter Bellarmines iudgement of this matter, where he maintaineth miracles, as a marke of the Church. Till the Church hath approoued thoſe things that are done, for miracles, (ſaith kkBellar. de notis. Eccleſ. lib. 4 cap. 14. ſect. Eſt autem.Bellarmine) it is not euident or certaine, by aſſurance of faith, of any miracle, that it is a true miracle: His reaſon followeth. That it is not euident, it appeareth, becauſe then faith ſhould be p. 353euident. That it is not certaine by aſſurance of faith, it is manifeſt, becauſe it is not cleare to vsus by ſuch aſſurance as cannot be falſe, that the thing done is not an illuſion of the diuell. For though the diuell cannot worke any true miracle, yet can he in ſhew do any thing neuer ſo wonderfull. If then there be no meanes to iudge any man holy, but by miracles, nor any certaintie but by the teſtimony of the Church, to know which are true miracles; doubtleſſe you can neuer prooue, that your Church is holy, becauſe there hauehave bene holy men members of it, till you hauehave firſt prooued it to be the true Church. But of your proofe enough.

To your Minor I anſwer, that Bellarmine, out of whom you To the Aſſumption.tooke all this, maketh the holineſſe of your men, and their miracles two ſeuerall proofes, though vnderunder the note of holineſſe I Bellar. de notis Eccleſ. lib. 4. ca. 13. 14.of life. Out of him I ſay farther, that the Patriarks, Prophets, and Apoſtles, yea all that euer were holy, were members of the ſame Church with vsus, holding the ſame doctrine that we do, for the ſubſtance of it. You bid me prooue it. But by your leaue the duetie of prouing lies vponupon the replier, whoſe place you hauehave taken, not vponupon the anſwerer, whoſe perſon in this caſe, I ſuſtaine. Beſides I bring you the ſame proofe, that Bellarmine bringeth for himſelfe, that is, I ſay they were all of our Church. If it be abſurd to do ſo, let your Cardinall learne to diſpute better. It were long to enter into particulars, yet if I had brought the argument, I would for ſhame hauehave ſaid ſome what in proofe of it: but let it paſſe as it comes for this once. Againſt whom make you all this diſcourſe, to prooue that it is not poſſible to know certainly, who are holy, and who are not? Surely not againſt the Proteſtants, who confeſſe as much. If hereupon you conclude, that our Church hath had none holy, becauſe it hath had none certainly knowne to be holy, the Maior of your ſyllogiſme will be falſe, as before: viz. That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy by miracle, or anie other certaine way from God, hath had no members of it holy: and I will anſwer to your Minor, as I did, that the Patriarkes, Prophets and Apoſtles were members of our Church, certainly knowne to be holy by reuelation from God.

p. 354But whereas you ſay, that no man can tell, whether himſelfe be truely ſanctified or no, you affoord me proofe of that, which before I affirmed, that the Apoſtles were of our Church. Prooue your ſelues (ſaith mm2. Cor. 13. 5.2 Cor 13:5the Apoſtle Paule) whether you be in the faith: examine your ſelues: know ye not your owne ſelues, that Ieſus Chriſt is in you, except you be reprobates? And how doth nnRom. 8. 16.Rom 8:16the ſpirit of God, beare witneſſe to our ſpirit, that we are the children of God, if it be not poſſible to diſcerne his voice, from the deluſion of Sathan? God hath giuen (ſaith ooBernard. ſerm. 1. in ſeptuag.Bernard) certaine manifeſt ſignes and tokens of ſaluation, that it cannot be doubted, but that he is in the number of the elect, in whom thoſe ſignes continue. And ppBernard. Juper. Cant. ſer. 8.in an other place, whatſoeuer ſoule among you (ſath the ſame man) hath at any time felt in the ſecret of his conſcience the ſpirit of the Sonne, crying Abba Father: let that ſoule preſume, that he is loued with a fatherly affection, which feeleth himſelfe indued with the ſame ſpirit, which the Sonne had. Be confident, whoſoeuer thou art, be confident, nothing doubting. By the ſpirit of the Sonne, know thou art the daughter of the Father, the ſpouſe and ſiſter of the Sonne. Do you name Bernard for a principall Saint of your Church, and go ſo directly againſt his doctrine? As for that place of qqEccleſ. 9. 1.Eccl 9:1Eccleſiaſtes, what prooueth it, but onelyonly, that rrSee defence of the reformed Catholicke. Pag.no man can truly iudge, whether he be in Gods fauour or no, by the outward things of this life, or at the moſt, that an ordinarie naturall man can giuegive no true iudgement of the matter? This place (ſaith ſſAlfonſ. Salmero. in 2. cor. 12. diſp. 14.Alfonſus Salmero, no meane Ieſuite) doth not prooue that, which ſome men draw from it, that a man knoweth not the louelove of God toward him: becauſe it followeth in the text, he knoweth not whether he be worthie of hatred. But the wicked know that they are moſt worthie of Gods hatred, by reaſon of their grieuous ſins: The other place, that ttProu. 20. 9.Prov 20:9No man can ſay his heart is cleane, maketh nothing againſt the point, you would diſprooue. For what though euerie man be tainted with naturall corruption, which hath euen the nature of ſinne in it, may be not hauehave, withall, aſſurance, according to his meaſure of Gods louelove in Chriſt? Yet if want of a pure heart, be all the hindrance, your doctrine teacheth vsus, that the uuConcil. Trident. ſeſs. 5. cap. 5partie baptiſed, before he fall into ſome deadly ſinne, p. 355is wholly cleane, originall ſinne hauing loſt in him the nature of ſinne. But the knowledge of the fauour of God dependeth not vponupon the meaſure of our holineſſe, but vponupon the truth of it. Whereſoeuer xxRom. 8. 9. 10Rom 8:9Rom 8:10the ſpirit of God hath begotten true faith, there he hath begun true ſanctification, which according to his diuine power and pleaſure, be will in time bring to full perfection.

As if our Church had bene begun with Luther, and not Thom. in expoſ. Symb. ſect. ſanctā Eccleſ.rather with Adam, and the world; continued in the Patriarches and Prophets, and at laſt ſhewed moſt gloriouſly in the Apoſtles and Diſciples of our Sauiour Chriſt? As long as God hath giuen teſtimonie of the holineſſe of theſe worthies, our Church cannot be ſaid to hauehave had none certainly knowne to be holy. But though we builde not vponupon any ſuch ground, tel me what it wanted of amiracle, that a poore Frier ſhould ſet himſelfe againſt the Pope, and the whole ſtate of your Church: and for all the malice & perſecution of the Pope, the Emperor, and generally all the eſtates of theſe weſterne parts, as well ciuill, as Eccleſiaſticall, except a Prince or two in Germany conuerted by him, continue and grow ſo many yeares, and leaue behind him, (after a peaceable and godly death) ſo many heires of his doctrine, daily increaſing and multiplying? It is enough that the word of God beareth witneſſe to the truth of his doctrine, though we hauehave neither miracle, nor reuelation of his holineſſe. But you would make the world beleeue, that he and Caluin attempted to worke miracles. If it had bene ſo, it was not to breed an opinion of their holineſſe, but to auow the truth of their doctrine. But to whom can it ſeeme likely, that they which denied, that any miracles were to be looked for, and taught that Antichriſt ſhould come with ſignes and wonders, would go about ſuch a needleſſe, and doubtfull peece of worke? What tell you vsus of the Apoſtata Bolſec, or Staphylus, who ſolde themſelues to lie for the Popes aduantage? At the leaſt name ſome likely men, though partiall, and not ſuch knowne enemies and Sycophants.

I maruell you prooue not this point of holineſſe by the examples p. 356of your Popes, in whoſe perſons holineſſe is inueſted, and from them deriued to all other, as honour is in, and from temporall Princes. If the Popes holineſſe, be not extraordinarily holy, what ſhould a man looke for of inferiour Papiſts? Who would not rather name the Sunne, then any ſtarre of the firſt magnitude, or the Moone her ſelfe, to prooue that there is light in the skie? But you knew how filthie that fountaine of your holineſſe is. Well, let them go as they are: you hauehave named vsus three: the ancienteſt of whom is not yet ſix hundred yeares old. What ſay you of them? Firſt, that they were certainly knowne to hauehave bene profeſſors of that ſame Religion, which was then, and is now profeſſed at Rome. To whom is this certainly knowne? How many of our men hauehave ſhewed that the Religion of the Church of Rome is altered in diuers points, ſince Bernards time? The Councell of Trent is the pit, out of which the religiō of your preſent Church is digged. I referre the Reader, for this point, yyDoct. Field of the Church lib 3. cap. 7.to a Treatiſe lately written by a learned Diuine, wherein many particulars to this purpoſe are deliuered. Bernard was indeed a member of the Church of Rome, as then it was: yet either he diſſented from the doctrine of that Church, in the fundamentall points of iuſtification, or rather your Church now is fallen away from the truth, in that matter. Thou (ſaith zzBernard. in Cant. ſer. 61.Bernard to our Sauiour Chriſt) art made vntounto me of God righteouſneſſe: ſhal I feare leſt that one be not ſufficient for vsus both? It is not a ſhore cloake that cannot couer, it will couer both thee and me largely, being both a large & eternall Iuſtice. As for our righteouſnes, Bernard altogether (as we do) acknowledgeth it, to be true but vnperfect: aaBernard. in ſer. 5. de verb. Eſaiae.Our humble righteouſneſſe, if there be any, is true perhaps (ſaith he) but not pure, vnleſſe perchance we thinke our ſelues better, then our forefathers, who ſaid no leſſe truely, then humbly, all our righteouſneſſe is as the clouts of a menſtruous woman. For how can there be pure righteouſneſſe, wheras yet there cannot be fault wanting? VVe will not ſtriue greatly with you for Francis or Dominicke, though many abſurd doctrines, which your Church now holds, were not in their daies, nor before them, defined by any Councell, nor acknowledged by many of your Diuines.

p. 357To proue that theſe three were of your Church, as it is now, you alledge that which is left written of their liues, and the religious orders of Monkes and Friers founded by them. What is written of them, and by whom? Doth any man in penning their liues, affirme, that they held the ſame things in all points that your Church now holds? I trow not. But if he do, who told him ſo? If he liued in their times, he was no prophet to foreſee what would be maintained in your Church ſome hundreds of yeares after his death. If he be a late writer, what reaſon hauehave we to giuegive credit to him in ſuch a matter, farther then he is able to make good that he ſaith, by ſhewing ſuch an agreement betwixt their doctrine, and that which now you teach? That they hauehave left certaine orders behind them, we denie not; which may ſerue to proue, that they thought it needfull to hauehave people inſtructed in the knowledge of the Goſpell by preaching, and ſome trained vp of purpoſe to performe that dutie, which was the firſt end of monaſteries. But it is no eaſie matter to ſhew that your Monkes and Friers are now gouerned according to the rules appointed by them, nor any inconuenience for vsus to graunt that they were of your opinion touching Frieries and monaſteries, which are matters far from the foundation of Religion, as long as there is no opinion of merit or perfection annexed thereunto.

The ſecond thing you affirme of them, is, that they were holy men, certainly knowne to be ſo. We are willing in charitie to thinke the beſt we may, and therefore are not haſtie to condemne them we know not. But this our iudgment is not of certaintie, vnleſſe we may hauehave better proofe for it then this you bring. Their liues (you ſay) and miracles teſtifie as much. But firſt, who ſhall aſſure vsus that they liued ſo holily, and wrought ſuch miracles? Wee muſt hauehave certaine knowledge that they were holy men, who writ and reported theſe things, ere we can vponupon their credit beleeue, that they ſo behaued themſelues. Secondly, put caſe that their liues were as they are ſaid to hauehave bene: hauehave you forgotten what you writ a little before? It cannot be perfitly knowne of men (ſay you) who hauehave truly a good conſcience, and an vnfained faith, and conſequently who be truly ſaints, p. 358vnleſſe it pleaſe God to reueale it by miracle, or ſome other certaine way vntounto vsus. Thirdly, if you thinke to ſtrike it dead by the report of their miracles, bbBiel. in Can. Miſſlect. 29.Biel hath taught vsus, that they are oftentimes wrought by the diuell, or ſhew made of them by Prieſts, as ccLyra in Dan. cap. 14.Lyra ſaith. And ddBellar. de notis eccleſ. lib. 4. cap. 10.Bellarmine reſolues, that we cannot be aſſured which be true miracles, which falſe, but by the iudgement of the Church. Then are we very far from certaine knowledge that theſe men were holy: I meane ſuch knowledge as you ſpeake of, that may be a ground of faith, to teach vsus infallibly which is the true Church, by the holineſſe of the members thereof.

But Luther and other of our men confeſſed them to hauehave bene ſaints. It had bene plaine dealing to hauehave ſaid holy men: whereas you craftily ſay ſaints, as if Luther had giuen ſome approbation of your ſaints canonized. But do Luther and Melanckthon hold them for ſaints, becauſe of their miracles, or as a thing certainly knowne to them? How could they vnderſtand what they were, but by report? They iudged charitably of them, according to the opinion that was of them in the world. And for my part, I am perſwaded of Bernard, that he was a man of a ſincere heart, and true ſanctification. But for Francis, if the report of his fiue wounds be true, I will not doubt to affirme, that he was either a wretched hypocrite in faining that miracle, or a ſilly ideot to be ſo abuſed by the diuell. The tale lies thus: that this ſame Saint Francis forſooth ſhould hauehave in his ſide, hands and feete, ſuch wounds as our Sauiour had, which continued always green, and were made in his bodie by I know not what ſtreames that iſſued from the Crucifixe, from the ſide, hands and feete thereof, to his ſide, hands and feete. This matter being cunningly caried by this Pope-holy ſaint, a woman ſaint, one Katharine of Sene counterfetted the like, and with like ſucceſſe. Afterward eeRelacion de la ſantidad yllagas de la &c en Seuilla 1589.euen of late yeares there was the like practiſe by one Marie a Prioreſſe in Portugall, of Saint Dominicks order: who caried the matter very cleanly for a time, till it pleaſed God to diſcouer her couſinage by meanes of certaine of the Nunnes, who thought ſcorne that ſhe ſhould be a ſaint rather then they; and therefore watched her ſo narrowly, and p. 359gaue out ſuch ſuſpicious ſpeeches of her, that at laſt the whole packe of her diſſembling was opened, and ſhe enioyned fauourable penance of faſting and praying, &c. There is extant a moſt abhominable treatiſe of Saint Francis conformitie to Chriſt, Barthol dePiſts conform. S. Franciſci.wherein hee is at the leaſt equalled, if not preferred before him. But becauſe this was none of Francis owne doing, let it be as it is, the blaſphemous ſinne of your Church. Dominicke was little better then his fellow Francis, as his Legend ſheweth.

VponUpon theſe premiſſes thus weakly proued, you bring in two concluſions: the former, that this holineſſe being confeſſed of thoſe three, muſt needs inferre the like confeſſion of the ſanctitie of many other, who were alſo profeſſors of the ſame Romane faith. If their profeſſion had bene the cauſe of their holineſſe, then you had not gathered much amiſſe. But their holineſſe (if the two latter had any) aroſe from their true faith in Chriſt, wrought in them by the holy Ghoſt, the author of that faith. But there were many in their times, as reſolute maintainers of the Romiſh Religion as they, who neuer attained to any ſuch opinion of holineſſe: and the faith you Romaniſts now profeſſe, is in maine points of iuſtification and free-will, other then that which Bernard taught. For though I hauehave followed you in ſaying their holineſſe, yet I acknowledge none of the three to hauehave bene holy, but onelyonly Bernard. Neither are our Kalenders any euidence to proue the holines of the reſt of your Saints, though their names are continued by Almanacke writers; becauſe many old deeds and euidences are dated by their names, and not by the dayes of the monethmonth. The Saints Athanaſius and Bernard write of, were none of your Church, and yet (by your iudgement) both of them might be deceiued in determining who were Saints. As for Antoninus and Surius, two of your Popes vaſſailes, their teſtimonie is little worth, in any indifferent mans opinion.

Your latter concluſion is, that ſome part of your Church is holy, and that therefore the whole may be termed holy. But, as I hauehave ſaid, whatſoeuer holineſſe was in any of the profeſſed members of your Church, it ſprung from another roote then growes p. 360in your church. Neither is there any reaſon to terme your whole companie holy, becauſe a few among them are holy; who in regard of their holineſſe, are indeed none of your company. That which they hauehave common with the reſt of you, makes them not holy, but rather vnholy; namely their profeſſion of ſubiection to your ſea of Rome, and their erring with you in diuers points of doctrine: their holineſſe growes from a true acknowledgement of ſaluation by faith onelyonly, and a reſting vponupon Ieſus Chriſt accordingly, without any opinion of merit in their owne actions, either before or after grace; together with a beleefe and feeling, that not they themſelues by their free will enlightened, but God by his mercy and grace made difference betwixt them and other, vouchſafing them the gift of faith, and not beſtowing it vponupon other. Your ſimilitude of painting, painteth out the fondneſſe of your conceit. For being a Christian, anſwers to being a painter, in this ſimilitude, and being holy, to being skilfull. Now as eueryevery man that is free of that Companie, is by his freedome a painter, but not thereby skilfull: ſo all that profeſſe Chriſtian Religion, are thereby Chriſtians, but not therefore holy. Neither if one or two, or a few of theſe painters were skilful, would any diſcreet man ſay, that the whole company might be termed skilfull, becauſe all make profeſſion of the ſame art of painting, wherein ſome of them are skilfull.

How falſly our doctrine was ſlaundered by you, with inducing men to libertie, I ſhewed in my anſwer to your accuſation: now let vsus ſee wherein yours is better. Firſt you propound two general points, that it forbids expreſly all vice, and preſcribes lawes contrary to libertie. And are you able to charge vsus with the contrary? Doe we not more ſtrictly interprete the lawes of God then you do? Are we not further from idolatry, allowing no religious Homily againſt perill of idolatrie. par. 3. pag. 94.vſe of any image? Do we not more abhorre ſwearing, and expound the third commandement againſt your prophane othes of Maſſe, Marie, Ladie, and all your Saints, which you account matters of ſmal moment? Who teach men to keepe the whole Sabbath, you or we? Who make a maine point of Gods law, the louelove of our enemies, a counſell, and not a commaundement; we or you? Who maintaine aequiuocation & officious lies, p. 361but you? Are not you they that hold murdering of Princes, yea euen of your owne Soueraignes, to be meritorious workes? What ſhould I name particulars? You are the men that make the corruption of our nature to be nothing elſe but the want of righteouſneſſe, that ought to be in vsus. You are the men who teach vsus, that originall ſinne in the regenerate, is not properly ſinne; that vncleane, vnnaturall, vnruly, ambitious, couetous, murderous, and ſuch like thoughts and motions are no ſinnes, vnleſſe we yeeld to them, or delight in them. Doe not you perſwade men, that many ſinnes are not mortall, but veniall; and ſo make men ruſh into them, without feare or ſhame?

Your ſecond point is, that your religion containes moſt ſoueraigne meanes to incite men to perfit vertue and holineſſe of life. What, more ſoueraigne, then God hath appointed in his word? You will not dare to ſay ſo, for very ſhame of the world. It remaines then, that you ſhew what meanes we neglect of al them that God hath commaunded vsus to vſe. Do we not miniſter the ſacraments to our people? Do we not offer vp prayers, ſupplications, and interceſſions to God for them? But, that I may not runne through all particulars at once: let vsus ſee what you bring peece by peece.

This firſt point giueth a taſt of that maine difference, which may be obſerued betwixt your Religion and ours. You ſo carie the matter, that you alwayes prouide for the freedome of mans will, whatſoeuer become of the glorie of God. We make it our chiefe care to aduance Gods glorie, though thereby we take ſomewhat from the pride of man. Let vsus make this manifeſt in the particular queſtion we hauehave in hand. Wherein firſt wee graunt as much as you affirme: that Gods predeſtination doth not take away mans free will. But herein lies the difference betwixt you and vsus: you teach that God doth onelyonly giuegive a man abilitie to beleeue, and doe good workes, leauing it to himſelfe, to beleeue or not to beleeue, to do good, or not to do good. We contrariwiſe auouch, that God, beſides this abilitie, doth alſo incline our hearts to beleeue, and do, according to his owne holy purpoſe: yet doe we not any way imagine, that a man is forced p. 362to beleeue; but onelyonly teach, that whereas any man beleeueth it was fore appointed by God, that hee ſhould beleeue: neither could it in the euent otherwiſe fall out, though he did beleeue willingly, and by his owne choiſe. ffSee my anſwer to 12. art part. 2. art. 4.Your doctrine maketh a man more beholding to himſelfe then to God, for his faith and good workes: becauſe God did no more for him, then he doth ordinarily for many other men, who are yet vtterly caſt away. God indeede gaue him abilitie to beleeue, if he would; but for all that, he might hauehave refuſed to beleeue, and ſo hauehave bene damned. Therefore whereas he doth beleeue, and is ſaued, he may thanke himſelfe, and not God. Thus you prouide for mans free will, with the impeachment of Gods glorie. We on the other ſide acknowledge, that as we hauehave power to beleeue, from the grace of God, ſo it is he that worketh our hearts to beleeue, and certainly and neceſſarily in regard of the euent, though freely in reſpect of our will, brings vsus to beleeue in Ieſus Chriſt. So that you by this opinion, giuegive man the glorie of his ſaluation: wee leaue it wholly to God.

Now for the deſpaire of ſhunning euill, and doing well, which (in your conceit) enſueth vponupon our opinion: there is no ſuch matter. Who ſhall be in deſpaire of ſhunning ſinne, by this doctrine? No man that hath grace. For with him the ſpirit of God is alwayes preſent, to prouoke and incline him to well doing. And this muſt needs encourage him thereto much more, becauſe he is the abler to performe any good action. As for him that is ſtill in his naturall eſtate, I hope you graunt, that there is no good to be looked for at his hands: I meane ſuch good, as may further him to euerlaſting life. But (ſay you) he can hauehave no hope to obtaine faith and grace, becauſe it is not within the compaſſe of mans free will to make choiſe of it, when it is offered. What though it be not? Do not we teach withall, that euerie man, to whom God affoordeth the meanes of faith, that is the miniſterie of the word, may and ought to aſſure himſelfe, that the ſpirit of God will be get faith in him, if he will ſhew himſelfe willing to be inſtructed and inclined, as he may doe, if he will aduiſedly conſider what his eſtate is p. 363by nature, and what offer is made him by God? onelyonly he cannot feede his naturall pride with a conceipt of being the chiefe procurer of his owne felicitie.

It is not vnpoſſible to obſerue the law, but to keepe it perfectly, ſo that a man cannot be charged with the breach of it in any point. Why doth ggPſal. 143. 2.Ps 143:2Dauid crie out, Enter not into iudgement with thy ſeruant, O Lord: for in thy ſight ſhall none that liueth be iuſtified? Why doth hhDan. 9. 20.Dan 9:20Daniel confeſſe his ſinnes to God? iiSee my anſwer to 12. art. part. 2. art. 4.It is verie like, that many of your Friers are able to performe that, in which theſe worthies of the Church failed. The commaundements of God indeed are not grieuous to anie man regenerate by Gods ſpirit, becauſe (as kkRom. 7. 21.Rom 7:21the Apoſtle ſaith) he delighteth in the law of God: and by reaſon of his louelove to God, thinketh nothing too heauie or too hard: as llOecum. ad 1. Ioan. 5. 3.1 John 5:3Oecumenius expoundeth the place of Iohn. But it doth not follow thereupon, that therefore the whole law may be perfectly kept. Yea mmHieron. ad Math. 11. 30.Matt 11:30Ierome vponupon that place of Mathew, directly affirmes, that many things are commaunded in the law, which (ſaith he) the Apoſtle moſt fully teacheth vsus, cannot be fulfilled. nnBeda. ibi.Bede maketh this burden and yoke, not the commandements of the law, but the doctrine of the Gospell.

What? cannot a man hauehave any heart to do well, vnleſſe hee puffe vp himſelfe with a proud conceit of being able perfectly to fulfill the whole law? How did Dauid and Daniel? Theſe are the Phariſaicall thoughts of you Papiſts, who thinke ſcorne to be beholding to God for his merciemercy, in forgiuing your ſinnes after baptiſme, without your owne ſatisfaction: and who will hauehave all of deſert, in the rigour of iuſtice. Is it not enough for a poore ſoule, who is priuie to his owne grieuous infirmities, many ſlips and great corruptions, that the Lord vouchſafeth to accept of his weake endeuours, and will crowne them with reward of glorie, for all their imperfections; but that he muſt alſo preſume of his power to keepe the whole law? You are the men that valew the pride of your corrupt nature, at an higher rate, then the glorious riches of Gods mercy in Ieſus Chriſt.

Here you manifeſtly bewray the pride of your hearts, p. 364and ooo See my anſwer to 12. art. part. 2. art. 7.your ſeruile nature, who will do nothing in thankfulneſſe to God, but vponupon perſwaſion of meriting by that you do. We acknowledge, that our vnperfect obedience is acceptable to God, and that he will certainly reward eueryevery leaſt good worke of any of his children, with a great meaſure of glorie in heauen. Only the doctrine of the ſcriptures, the knowledge of our owne imperfections, and our deſire to giuegive all glory to God, makes vsus to renounce all opiniō of merit, & to appeale to Gods gracious promiſe onelyonly for our reward. If theſe reſpects be not of ſufficient force with any man (as with none of you that are grounded Papiſts, they are) but that he can contemne or loathe doing of good, for all them; what ſhould I ſay, but that he ſhewes himſelf to be a ſeruant, and not a ſon: and therefore can hauehave no claime to the kingdome of heauen, which is the inheritance of children?Luc, 12. 32.

VVhereas, to deceiue your owne hearts with an opinion of deſert, you aſcribe the merite of your workes to the merits of Chriſt, and teach that they are meritorious, by being dipped in his bloud: you ſhew either your ignorance or your dallying. If you thinke as you ſpeake, you bewray your ignorance: if otherwiſe, you dally with our Sauiour and his bloud. Are you able indeed to keepe the commaundements perfectly? what need hauehave you then of Chriſts bloud, to dip your workes in? For the perfect obſeruation of the law, brings of it ſelfe euerlaſting life, without any merit of Chriſt. Let it be from his merits, that you hauehave this abilitie to performe the law. VponUpon the performance of it, the hire of eternall happines is abſolutely due vntounto you. VVhy do you then trifle thus with our Sauiour, as if you would make him beleeue, that you thinke your ſelues more beholding to him, then indeed you can do? If you need Chriſts bloud, your works are vnperfit: if they be perfit, you need it not. Leaue this halting betwixt Chriſt and your ſelues, leſt he be auenged of your dallying.

To what purpoſe do you mention this your teaching, that exceeding puniſhment is due to ſinne in the next life? Doe not we teach this more effectually then you? We make the leaſt ſinne liable to euerlaſting condemnation: you teach, p. 365that qqBellar. de amiſſ. grat. lib. 1. cap. 3.there are many veniall ſinnes, which rrVbi ſupra. cap 13. Bonauent. in centiloq. cap. 6. Thom. in 4. diſt. 85. art. 3. Rhem. Teſt. ad Math. 10 v. 12 Extra. de paenit. & remiſſ. cap. omnis vtriuſque in Gloſſa.Matt 10:12deſerue little or no puniſhment: in ſo much, that a knocke on the breaſt, or a ſigh, or the ſaying of one Aue-Marie, maketh ſatisfaction to God for it. But the point is, that you perſwade men, there is no aſſurance to be had of any forgiueneſſe of ſinnes committed after baptiſme. We teach the contrarie, that as many, as in the ſight of their ſinnes, with true ſorrow for them, caſt themſelues vponupon Chriſt by faith to be iuſtified by him, both obtaine pardon of all their tranſgreſſions, and alſo receiue euerie one in their meaſure, and time, aſſurance that they are pardoned.

Your doctrine (you ſay) maketh men warie, not to fall into ſinne. It reſtraineth mortall ſinne onelyonly. For veniall ſinne cannot be puniſhed but in Purgatorie, vnleſſe a man be guiltie of mortall alſo: and if a man can make friends to the Pope, as it is no hard matter to do, eſpecially if he be well monied, he may eaſily auoid all thoſe exceeding great puniſhments. Or if he can but hauehave a Prieſt to ſing maſſe for him euerie Vide ſpeculum exemplar. paſſim.day (and maſſes are not verie high rated) he ſhall be ſure to be deliuered, within a ſhort ſpace. If the worſt come to the worſt, Purgatorie cannot out laſt the world, and then he goeth vp to heauen, without any more ado. But yet men are kept in awe from committing of deadly ſinnes. Neuer a whit. For it is generally preached by your Friers and Prieſtes, that confeſſion purgeth all ſins: and your people (ordinarily) are not ſo skilfull (no not one among a thouſand) as to diſtinguiſh betwixt ſinnes in this ſort: but they beleeue, that vponupon their confeſſion, and abſolution (if they doe the pennaunce appoynted by their ghoſtly Father) they are as free from all their ſinnes, as when they were newly baptiſed.

Now concerning our doctrine, though we teach men, that aſſurance is to be had; yet we withall inſtruct them, that it is neuer in this life abſolutely without doubting, at all times: and ſ See my anſwer to 12. Art. part. 1. art. 5.that no man can be aſſured that his ſinnes are forgiuen, but he that with feare and trembling maketh conſcience of falling into ſinne; which are eſpeciall meanes prouided by God to keepe p. 366men from ſinning; and without which, ſinne will ſo ouertake vsus, and the ſenſe of Gods wrath ſo follow, & vexe vsus, ttSee my anſwer to 12. art. part. 2 art. 1that a man were better frie a yeare in your Purgatory, knowing that he ſhall one day get out of it, then lie one monethmonth vnderunder the heauie hand of God, preſſing him with the remembrance of his ſinne, and for the time hiding his gracious countenance from him. If you neuer fealt this, offer not to iudge of the extremitie thereof, for you will neuer come to giuegive any reaſonable geſſe of the terribleneſſe of it.

To preſcribe lawes of faſting, and praier as you do, that A man refraine, vponupon ſuch and ſuch daies from fleſh, or patter ouer a number of Paternoſters, Aues, and Creeds, is ſo farre from teaching men to auoid ſinne, that it thruſts them neceſſarily into it. For both the opinion and doing of it as a ſeruice of God, is a grieuous ſinne, as if the Lord hated fleſh more then fiſh, or cared Durand. ratiō. lib. 6. cap. 7. n. 22.for ſuch vaine lip-labour; and alſo the verie conceit that men hauehave, of doing ſuch extraordinarie ſeruice, maketh them preſume, that God will beare with them, though they chance to ſinne againſt him. The like I ſay of confeſſion, but of theſe two I ſpake before in defence of our doctrine. uuSee my anſwer to 12. art. part. 2. art. 4.With what fitneſſe your remedies are applied, or rather penance is inioyned, the verieſt child may ſee; when for the moſt part they are ſuch, as I named ere while, abſtaining from fleſh, mumbling vp a certaine number of praiers, going on pilgrimage to ſome ſhrine, or ſuch like. As for true comfort in affliction of conſcience, or good direction in time of temptation, or wiſe inſtruction for a mans ſpirituall behauiour, few of your ordinarie Prieſtes, Sir Iohns Lacke-Latine, hauehave any knowledge or care of them.

This laſt point concerneth you, no more then vsus. For who knoweth not, that we continually teach, that God hath called Chriſtians to holineſſe, whereof they make profeſſion, and wherein, if they do not daily exerciſe themſelues, they can hauehave no ſufficient aſſurance, nor reaſonable perſwaſion, that they are iuſtified by the bloud of Chriſt. Becauſe as many as hauehave any part of redemption by him, xxGal. 4. 4. 5.Gal 4:4Gal 4:5hauehave receiued his ſpirit, and yyRom. 8. 9. 11Rom 8:9Rom 8:11If the ſpirit of him that raiſed vp Ieſus from the dead, dwell in vsus, p. 367our mortall bodies ſhall be quickened by the ſpirit dwelling in vsus. OnelyOnly it may ſeeme, that your diſgrace, and danger ſhould be the more, if you liue not holily: becauſe you brag, that you are able perfectly to keepe the Law, and your Plea for heauen, is the deſert of your good works, together with the inward grace of faith, hope, and charitie.

Becauſe there is nothing in this glorious concluſion, but a heaping vp of thoſe falſe aſſertions, which I hauehave alreadie confuted, I will neuer make the Reader more worke then needs, by repeating of that which hath bene formerly deliuered.