Defense of Perkins Book Called a Reformed Catholic, Point 6 – Point 7

Defense of Perkins Book Called a Reformed Catholic · Point 6 – Point 7

p. 344The sixth poynt. Of Satisfaction. Our consent.

speaker W. P. Conclus. I. First, we acknowledge and hold Ciuill or Politike satisfaction; that is, a recompence for iniuries, p. 345and damages offered any way to our neighbours. This Zacheus practised, when at his conuersion he restored foure-fold things gotten by forged cauillation. Againe, by ciuill satisfaction I vnderstand, the imposition of fines, mulcts, and penalties vponupon offenders, and the inflicting of death vponupon malefactors. For all these are satisfactions to the lawe, and societies of men when they are wronged. All these we maintain as necessary: for, neither Church, nor common-wealth can well bee without them; considering they are notable meanes to vphold ciuill peace: and otherwhiles they are fruits of true faith, as the satisfaction of Zacheus was.

speaker A. W. This is wittily acknowledged by him, but little exercised among Pro D. B. P. Luk. 10. Are you so p… …y to their a… counts?Luke 10testants, for where the Sacrament of Confession is wanting, there men vse very seldome to recompence so much as onefold, for their extorsion, bribes, vsury, and other craftie ouer-reaching of their neighbours.

Whatsoeuer our practice be (and yet if it did not exceed yours, we had good cause to be ashamed of it) the question is now of our doctrine; which Master Perkins hath truly deliuered. As for the helpe you would hauehave imagined to come from Auricular confession, to the exercise of satisfaction; who is so ignorant of your courses in appointing penance, that he knowes not how little you inioyne this satisfaction, and how easily it may be bought out, if it be enioyned, with some contribution to some of your Abbeyes, Frieries, Churches, Chappels, and such like?

speaker D. B. P. But of this kind of Satisfaction, which we commonly call restitution, vve are not here to treate: nor of that publike penance, which for notorious crimes is done openly.

speaker A. W. There was reason to mention this publike penance: as well that all men might the better vnderstand what is in question, as also because the testimonies, which in this case your men alleage, are wholy, or principally of that kinde of satisfaction.Then there may be satisf… ction not voluntary.

speaker D. B. P. But of such priuate penance, which is either enioy…ed by the confessor, or voluntarily vndertaken by the penitent, or else sent by Gods visitation p. 346to purge vsus from that temporall paine, which for sinnes past and pardoned, we are to endure, either in this life, or in Purgatorie, if we die before we hauehave fully satisfied here.

speaker A. W. Your speech and matter are both very strange: who would speak so? By visitation, that is by punishment, to purge men from paine that should be endured? May a man satisfie against his will, or without his knowledge? for both these fall out in Gods visitations, that a man is visited against his will, wholy, if hee could helpe it; and that hee doth not so much as once thinke vponupon satisfying for his sinnes by it: yea sometimes, if he should, he should thinke amisse: for all visitations of God are not ccIon. 9. 1. 2. Iob. 1. & 2.Job 1chastisements for sinne, but speciall trials and meanes of Gods glorie.

speaker W. P. Conclus. II. Wee acknowledge Canonicall or Ecclesiasticall satisfaction: and that is, when any hauing giuen offence to the Church of God, or any part thereof, doe make an open publike testimonie of their repentance. Mirian for murmuring against Moses, was stricken with leprosie, and afterward by his prayer shee was clensed, and yet for all that shee must goe seuen daies out of the tent and congregation, that shee might make a kinde of satisfaction to the people for her trespasse. And in the old testament, sackcloth and ashes were signes of their satisfaction.

Conclus. III. We hold that no man can be saued, vnlesse he make a perfect satisfaction to the iustice of God for all his sinnes; because God is infinite in iustice, and therefore will either exact an euerlasting punishment, or satisfaction for the same.

The dissent and difference.

The points of our difference and dissent are these. The Church of Rome teacheth and beleeueth, that p. 347Christ by his death hath made a satisfaction for all the sinnes of men, and for the eternall punishment of them all: yet so, as they themselues must satisfie the iustice of God for the temporall punishment of their offences, either on earth or in purgatorie. Wee teach and beleeue, that Christ by his death and passion hath made a perfect and all-sufficient satisfaction to the iustice of God for all the sinnes of men, and for the whole punishment thereof both eternall and temporall. Thus wee differ, and herein wee for our parts must for euer stand at difference with them: so as if there were no more points of variance but this one, it should bee sufficient to keepe vsus alwaies from vniting our religions, and cause vsus to obey the voyce of Christ, Come out of her my people. For as in the former points, so in this also, the papists erre, not in circumstance, but in the very foundation and life of religion.

speaker D. B. P. M. Perkins in his third conclusion, decreeth very solemnely, That no man can be saued, vnlesse bs make a perfect satisfaction, vntounto the iustice of God, for all his sinnes. Yet in the explication of the difference betvveene Not by himselfe hauing made satisfaction by and in Christ.vsus, defineth as peremptonly, that no man is to satisfie, for any one of all his sinnes, or for any temporall paine due to them: Which be flat contradictorie propositions, and therefore the one of them must needs be false. But such odde broken rubbish doth he commonly cast into the ground vvorke of his questions, and therupon raiseth the tottering building of his nevv doctrine: and lets not, like a blind man, to make an outcrie, that in this matter the Papists erre in the very foundation and life of religion.

speaker A. W. Is it contradiction to say, that eueryevery man must make satisfaction, and that Christ hath made satisfaction? Might you not easily hauehave vnderstood (if you did not) that the satisfaction which Christ hath made, is made by eueryevery one that beleeues in him? So then the latter proposition doth not contradict the former, but shew by what meanes that satisfaction is made, which in the former was required. Euerie p. 348man must satisfie, and eueryevery man doth satisfie, by and in Christ, are not contradictorie propositions, as a man with halfe an eye may see.

The very foundation and life of religion, is the acknowledging of full redemption by the sacrifice of Iesus Christ. But how can that be acknowledged, where satisfaction remaines to be made by (perhaps) many thousand yeeres punishment?

Our reasons.

speaker W. P. I. A satisfaction that is made imperfect either directly or by consequent, is indeede no satisfaction at all. But the Papists make Christs satisfaction imperfect, in that they doe adde a supply by humane satisfactions: and thus much a learned schooleman, Biel Super lib. 3. dist. 19. concl. 3in plaine words confessed: Although (saith he) the passion of Christ be the principal merit, for which grace is conferred: the opening of the kingdome and glory: yet is it neuer the alone and totall meritorious cause: it is manifest, because alwaies with the merit of Christ, there concurreth some worke, as the merit of congruitie or condignity of him that receiueth grace or glorie, if hee bee of yeeres and hauehave the vse of reason: or of some other for him, if he want reason. For that which admitts a supply by another, is imperfect in it selfe. Therefore humane satisfactions cannot stand.

speaker D. B. P. This is a substantiall argument to raise the cry vponupon: vvhichwhich hath both propositions false. The first is childish: for he that satisfieth for halfe his debts, or for any part of them, makes some satisfaction, vvhichwhich satisfaction is vnperfect, and yet cannot be called no satisfaction at all, as eueryevery child may see.

speaker A. W. Satisfaction is a full discharge of the debt, so that the bond thereupon is voide: but hee that paies halfe, or three quarters of his debt, if he pay not all in such sort as the bond requireth, hath the bond still against him in ful strength and p. 349vertue: so that, though hee hath paid part of his principall debt, he hath made no satisfaction at all.

speaker W. P. Learned Papists make answere, that Christs satisfaction and mans may stand well together. For (say they) Christs satisfaction is sufficient in it selfe to answere the iustice of God for all sin and punishment: but it is not sufficient to this or that man till it be applied: and it must bee applied by our satisfaction made to God for the temporall punishment of our sinnes. But I say againe, that mans satisfaction can bee no meanes to apply the satisfaction of Christ: and I prooue it thus. The meanes of applying Gods blessings and graces vntounto man are twofold: some respect God himselfe, and some respect man. Those which respect God, are such whereby God on his part doth offer and conuey his mercies in Christ vntounto man: of this sort are the preaching of the worde, baptisme, and the Lords supper, and these are as it were the hand of God whereby he reacheth downe and giueth vntounto vsus Christ with all his benefites. The other meanes of applying on mans part, are those whereby the saide benefits are receiued. Of this sort there is onelyonly one, namely faith, whereby we beleeue that Christ with all his benefits belong vntounto vsus. And this is the hand of man, whereby he receiueth Christ as he is offered, or exhibited by God in the word and sacraments. As for other meanes beside these, in Scripture we finde none. Foolish therfore is the answere of the Papists, that make mens satisfactions meanes to apply the satisfaction of Christ vntounto vsus: for by humane satisfactions, Christ is neither offered on Gods part, nor yet receiued on mans part: let them prooue it if they can.

p. 350speaker A. W. His second is as vntrue: but mans satisfaction is not to supplie the vvant of Christs satisfaction, but to applie it to vsus, as M. Perkins saith, his D. B. P. M… hath resi… ted this pag. 121 Proue there is such a vvill.faith doth to them, and to fulfill his vvill and ordinance.

First, the speech is beyond any ordinarie mans vnderstanding; to make satisfaction, is to applie another mans satisfaction to vsus. Secondly, to make satisfaction, is to deserue, that because of our satisfaction for the temporall punishment due to our sinnes, Christs satisfaction for the eternall may be auailable to vsus. Thirdly, if mans satisfaction be not to supplie the want of Christs satisfaction, either there is no temporall punishment belonging to sinne, or Christ hath made satisfaction for that, as well as for the eternall; and then God cannot require any satisfaction of vsus, because he is alreadie satisfied both for the eternall and temporall punishment. Fourthly, if wee doe nothing by our satisfaction, but applie Christs satisfaction to vsus, which is onelyonly for the eternall punishment, the temporall remaines wholy without satisfaction made for it.

speaker D. B. P. God doth in baptisme for Christs sake pardon both all sinnes, and taketh fully avvay, all paine due to sinne, so that he vvho dieth in that state, goeth presently to heauen. But if vve doe aftervvard vngratefully forsake God, and contrary to our promise transgresse against his commaundements, then loe the order of his diuine iustice requires, that we be not so easily receiued againe into his fauour: But he vponupon our repentance pardoning the sinne, and the eternall punishment due vntounto it, through Christ, doth exact of euerie man a temporall satisfaction, ansvverable vntounto the fault committed: not to supplie Christs satisfaction, which was of infinite value, and might more easily hauehave taken away this temporall punishment, then it doth the eternall. But, that by the smart and griefe of this punishment, the man may be feared from sinning, and be made more carefull to auoide sinne: and also by this meanes be made members conformable to Christ our head, that suffering with him, we may raigne with him. And therefore he hauing satisfied for the eternall punishment, which we are not able to do, doth lay the temporall paine vponupon our shoulders, that according vntounto the Apostle. EueryEvery man do beare his ovvne burden.Gal. 6.Gal 6

speaker A. W. Here is a long discourse to little purpose; neither answering any part of Master Perkins syllogisme, nor defending any point of your owne answere; but onelyonly affirming that, which before was said, that God exacts a temporall satisfaction; p. 351and affoording vsus some reason to confute your opinion by, in this sort.

If Christs satisfaction was sufficient more easily to take away the temporall punishment than the eternall, how will you prooue it did not? It stands you vponupon to shew vsus good euidence out of the record of Scripture, that God agreed with Christ, not to take the full desert of his sufferings and satisfaction, but to leaue man still indebted to him, though in truth the debt were paid. If no such agreement can be shewed, for my part I see not how God in iustice can aske the same debt twice, being once fully satisfied.

That which you adde is wholy our doctrine, viz. that God, by smart and griefe, would feare vsus from sinning, and make vsus conformable to his Sonne our Sauiour. But you teach, that he punisheth vsus, and so takes satisfaction for sins past, as if he were to be reuenged on vsus, at least by temporall punishment, for our sinnes committed.

You repeate your conclusion, but with no dependance vponupon your former matter, or proofe from that which followes: where ddGal. 6. 5.Gal 6:5the Apostle tels the Galathians, that they may not be alwaies finding fault with other men, and so grow into a conceit of their owne goodnes, but looke to themselues; because eueryevery man must giuegive an account to God for his owne sinnes, and not for another mans. If you will needs abuse the Apostle, and applie his words to that he thought not on; why doe you not, by the same reason, lay the eternall punishment vponupon vsus too? for that was our burthen, as well as the temporall.

speaker W. P. Others, not content with this their former answer say, that our satisfactions doe nothing derogate from the satisfaction of Christ: because our workes hauehave their dignitie and merit from Christs satisfaction: he meriting that our works should satisfie Gods iustice for temporal punishment. But this is also absurd and false, as the former was. For if Christ did satisfie p. 352that man might satisfie, then Christ doth make eueryevery beleeuer to be a Christ, a Iesus, a Redeemer, and a priest in the same order with his owne selfe. But to make sinful man his own redeemer, though it be but from temporall punishments, is a doctrine of diuels. For the holy Ghost teacheth that the priesthood of Heb. 7. 24.Heb 7:24Christ is incommunicable, & cannot passe from him to another. Now to make satisfaction for sinne or any part of the punishment thereof, is a dutie, or a part of Christ his priesthood, and therefore to make satisfaction is a worke that cannot passe from his person to the person of any man.

speaker D. B. P. Nay (saith M. Perkins,) we must then be new Christs, and redeemers, and Priests of the same order with himselfe: Nothing so, but hauing grace from him, we may in vertue therof satisfie, not for the crime it self, or euerlasting punishment, which is lincked with it: because that would require an infinite vertue: But for the temporall paine of it, one indued with grace may satisfie, for the measure of stripes must not exceede the rate of the fault, the punishment then resting vnsatisfied being limited, a creature may pay it.

speaker A. W. It was not for nothing that you would not set downe Master Perkins words. For you saw well enough, that if you should doe so, your poore blinded Papists would venture to reade them (which now they dare not doe) and so your weaknes in answering might be discouered. Master Perkins hath refuted your answere of applying Christs satisfaction, before it was hatcht: you passe it by as not seene, and propound his answere to another obiection by halues, leauing the obiection out altogether. I will make the matter as plaine as I can with shortnes. You Papists say, that Christs satisfaction merited, that mans workes should satisfie for temporall punishment: Master Perkins denies it vponupon this reason:

If Christ did satisfie that man might satisfie, he made eueryevery beleeuer a Christ, a Iesus, a Redeemer, a Priest, in the same order with himselfe:

p. 353But he did not make men Christs and Iesuses, Redeemers and Priests, in the same order with himselfe.

Therefore he did not satisfie, that man might satisfie.

The assumption he prooues; eeHebr. 7. 24.Heb 7:24because Christs Priesthood cannot be communicated to any other; the consequence of the proposition depends vponupon this, that satisfaction is a part of Christs Priesthood: you denie the consequence; but neither shew any reason of your deniall, nor answere his proofe: onelyonly you tell vsus, that a man is able to beare the temporall punishment, though not the eternall; as though wee denied temporall, because a man cannot beare it.

speaker D. B. P. And that the Reader may better perceiue what we meane by the temporall paine: Let him consider that in sinne there are two things, the one is the turning away from God, whom we offend, the other is the turning to the thing, for the louelove of which we offend: as for glorie, lust, lucre, or such like the sinner transgresseth: Novv vvhen he is by the grace of God conuerted, his turning avvay from God, both the sin and the eternall paine due vntounto it, are freely through Christ pardoned, but for the pleasure vvhichwhich he tooke in the sinne, the man himselfe is to satisfie: and so according vntounto the greatnes of that his pleasure, he is to doe penance.

speaker A. W. First, your distinction belongs not to all sinnes, and so prooues satisfaction needfull but for some sinnes onelyonly. To what doth a man turne, when (in the error of his iudgement) he denies Christ to bee God, without any respect of glorie, lucre, lust, or such like? Again, may not a man sweare vnaduisedly, and rashly, without this turning, and without any pleasure in that sinne? Yea, may not a man thinke the murthering of his Soueraigne lawfull and meritorious (as many Popish traytors hauehave done) without this turning to I cannot tell what? Sinne is the transgression of Gods commendements: as for this turning to and from, it is an idle speculation of men, that seeke a knot in a rush: he that doth that which God forbids, whatsoeuer the occasion or end of his doing be, sinnes in so doing. He that makes his money his god, sinnes; not because he loues his money, or turnes to his money, but because hee loues it otherwise than hee should, and so turnes from God to it.

p. 354Secondly, what a fond distinction is that, betwixt the sin, and the pleasure in the sinne? Is not that pleasure in the sin, a sinne too, if it be voluntarie? and if it be not voluntarie, but onelyonly be a consequent vponupon the sinne, hauing no ground in the will any way, how is it punishable?

speaker W. P. Againe, if Christ by his satisfaction giuegive power to man to satisfie, then man doth satisfie by Christ and Christ beside his owne satisfaction vponupon the crosse, must daily satisfie in man to the ende of the world: but this cannot be: for Christ vponupon the crosse, when death was vponupon him, said, It is finished, that is, I hauehave fully satisfied for all the sins of mankinde, both in respect of the fault and punishment. As for Christs buriall & resurrection which followeth his death, they serued not to satisfie but to confirme and ratifie the same.

speaker D. B. P. But Christ (saith M. Perkins) said. On the Crosse it is finished: VVherefore all satisfaction vvas at Christs death ended: as vvell temporall as eternall.

Ans. That those vvords hauehave a farre different sense: To vvitte, that Christ had then ended his course, and fulfilled all prophecies, and endured all such torments, as pleased God to impose vponupon him for the redemption of mankind: of satisfaction temporall there is no mention, neither can any thing be dravvne thence against it.

speaker A. W. There is no mention of any satisfaction at all, and yet you grant, that eternall satisfaction is there signified. You must then shew some good reason, why the one was then finished, and not the other; which it is vnpossible for you to doe; because you confesse, that both were then performed for all sinnes before Baptisme. Look by what reason you can draw that doctrine from that place, by the same will we conclude the other. If you will say, al was done that belongs to mans redemption: I aske whether Christ hauehave not also redeemed vsus from temporall punishment? You grant, from all that was due to sinne before Baptisme. I demaund further, whether these punishments were not part of that penaltie, which the breach of Gods law laies vponupon vsus? if they were, then either p. 355we are redeemed from them by Christ, or he hath not made perfect redemption. But questionlesse his redemption is perfect, and these are punishments due to sinne. Therfore he hath freed vsus from these also.

speaker W. P. Againe Paul saith, 2. Cor. 5. 21. Hee that knew no sin was made sinne for vsus, that is, the punishment of sinne for vsus: but if the Church of Rome say true, that Christ doth daily satisfie, then Paul spake too short, and should hauehave said further, that Christ was made sinne for vsus, and in vsus too: and that God was not on…ly in Christ but also in vsus reconciling the world to himselfe. But Paul neuer knew this learning: and therfore let them turne themselues which way they wil, by putting a supplement to Christs satisfaction, they doe indeede annihilate the same.

speaker D. B. P. No more can be out of this other. Christ vvas made sinne for vsus: That 2. Cor. 5.2 Cor 5is, the punishment of sinne, as M. Perkins gloseth it: but the learned say, an hoast or sacrifice for sin. But vve …raun… that he suffered the punishment For our sinne, and say consequently: that all sin is pardoned freely for his sake, and the paine of hell also, vvhichwhich is punishment of sinne: but not other temporall paines, such as it hath pleased the iustice and You begge, not proue this.vvisdome of God, to reserue vntounto eueryevery si…ner, to beare in his ovvne person. And after this sort, and no other vvas God in Christ, reconciling the vvorld to himselfe.

speaker A. W. If Christ were a sacrifice for sinne, I say, as before, either he was an vnperfect sacrifice (which to say were blasphemous) or hee wrought our redemption from the whole wrath of God, and so from all punishment ensuing thereupon: vnlesse (as I noted before) you can shew any agreement to the contrarie, betwixt God and Christ.

speaker D. B. P. And that S. Paul vnderstood vvell. that Christ suff…rings did not take Collos. 1.avvay ours, may be gathered by these his vvords. I reioyce in suffering for you, and doe accomplish those things, that vvant of the passions of Christ, in my flesh for his body, vvhichwhich is the Church.

But of this point more, vvhen vve come vntounto the Arguments for the Ca…holike part.

speaker A. W. Wee doe not say, that Christs sufferings take away ours; for we must still suffer, for diuers reasons aboue recited; but p. 356that his satisfaction leaues vsus no place for ours: we suffer, but not to satisfie: neither doth Saint Paul say any such thing.

speaker W. P. Reason II. In sundrie places of Scripture, especially in the Epistles of Paul, we are said to be redeemed, iustified, and saued Freely: which word Freely, doth import that we are iustified and saued without any thing done on our part or by our selues in the matter of our saluation: and if this bee so, then can wee doe nothing at all that may satisfie the iustice of God for the least punishment of our sinnes. If wee satisfie in our owne persons we are not saued freely: and if we be saued freely, we make no satisfaction at all.

speaker D. B. P. Novv to M. Perkins second reason. In sundrie places (saith he) of Scripture, we are said to be redeemed, iustified, and saued freely: but this vvord freely importeth that vve are saued vvithout doing any thing our selues in that matter of saluation.

speaker A. W. Ans. Not so good Sir, for euen in your owne Doctrine, it is necessary that ye beleeue, and bring forth the fruits of repentance, and that now and then, yee make some short prayers, and receiue the communion, and doe many other odde things in that matter of saluation: Wherfore the word freely doth not exclude all our working, and suffering in that All to merit or satisfie bymatter.

Master Perkins meanes not to exclude all doing, on our part, but all doing to merit, or satisfaction. As it appeares by the proposition of his syllogisme in the end: If we satisfie in our person, we are not saued freely: If we be saued freely, we make no satisfaction at all. Now although all doing be not against free saluation, yet all doing to merit and satisfie is directly against it.

speaker W. P. Reason III. We pray daily, forgiue vsus our sinnes: now to pleade pardon, and to satisfie for our sinnes bee contrarie: and for all things, for which wee can make satisfaction, we neede not craue a pardon: but we are taught in the foresaid petition wholy and only to vse the plea or pardon for our sinnes, and therefore p. 357we acknowledge that we cannot make any satisfaction at all.

speaker D. B. P. If our sinnes be mortall, we craue pardon both of the sinne, and the eternall punishment annexed, and do willingly withall satisfie for the temporall paine: as the man who is conuicted of high treason, and hauing both his life, honor, lands, and goods, pardoned and restored vntounto him, doth very ioyfully endure three monethes imprisonment, and any reasonable fine set on his head.

speaker A. W. In this, as in diuers other arguments, namely the very next before, you onelyonly set downe the first lines, and neuer propound the reason that you may answere to it directly; I must doe it for you.

If we can satisfie for sinne, we need not craue pardon for it:

But we need craue pardon for it.

Therefore we cannot satisfie for it.

Your answere cannot well be applied to any part of this syllogisme, but in effect it seemes to be as much, as if you should denie the assumption: not simply, but with this distinction, that we need craue pardon for the eternall punishment, but not for the temporall. Then the meaning of that petitiō in the Lords Prayer is, forgiue vsus the eternall punishment due to our sins: which is to aske forgiuenes by halues. ffLyra ad Math 6.Matt 6Lyra saith, We pray that our sinnes may be ggTotaliter.wholy forgiuen, both in respect of the fault, and of the punishment. And that hee meanes temporall punishment too, it appeareth by his reason; because so long as that remaines, we cannot enter into blessednes. Witnes the poore soules that …ie so many yeeres in your Purgatorie.

speaker D. B. P. …. If our sinnes be veniall: then that prayer is a speciall meane, both to obtaine pardon of the fault, and release of all the paine, as witnesseth S. Augustine: saying. That for the daily, short, and light offences, vvithout In Enchirid cap. 71.vvhichwhich this life is not ledde, the daily prayer of the faithfull doth satisfie.

speaker A. W. You seeme also to denie the consequence of the proposition, in your answere about veniall sinnes. For which (you say) we may satisfie by praying for pardon. But this is a marueilous strange satisfaction, that a man should be said to satisfie, by desiring to be pardoned. And then wee hauehave a further meaning in the Lords Prayer, that God would accept it p. 358as a satisfaction for our veniall sinnes. Can any reasonable man imagine, that our Sauiour did not teach vsus to pray for the full pardon of all punishment due to sinne, and yet neuer gaue notice of any such distinction? But of this more afterward.

Austin speakes of the different course that is to be held in repenting of our sinnes, that according as they are greater or lesse, so we should be the more or lesse carefull of obtaining pardon. Which for ordinarie sinnes, may be had by ordinarie praying; not as if this made a sufficient amends to God, which satisfaction imports, but because he lookes not for so much sorrow and care for these sinnes, as for those; by which, if we commit them, we shall highly dishonour him, and therefore neede to grieue more, that wee may the more carefully auoide them. If you will draw Austin to the worst, wee may not follow him, against the truth of the Scripture.

speaker D. B. P. And that is not true which M. Perkins addes, that we are taught in that prayer, wholy and only, to vse the plea of Pardon. For in thesame petition, we are taught also to pardon others, euen as we will looke to be pardoned.

speaker A. W. We are taught onelyonly to pleade pardon; the clause that is added, is not to satisfie God, or deserue forgiuenes, but to perswade God to forgiue vsus, as wee pardon other, or (as hhLuk. 11. 4.Luke 11:4Luke expounds it) for euen wee are so kinde, as to forgiue them that offend vsus. How then should God not shew his kindnes, when he is intreated?

speaker D. B. P. Againe, if there were only a plea of pardon, it would not serue Master Perkins purpose. For who would say, that within the compasse of the Pater noster, all things necessary to saluation be conteined.

speaker A. W. If praying for pardon of sinne be a sufficient meanes, for the procuring of it to them that beleeue in Christ, surely there is no satisfaction necessarie. That it is such a meanes, it is plaine; because our Sauiour wils vsus not here to vse any other meanes, and yet assures vsus that our requests shall be granted. You answer, that all things necessarie are not contained in the Pater noster. What of that? It will serue our turne, that the Lords Prayer prescribes sufficient meanes for p. 359the obtaining of pardon, and yet meddles not with satisfaction. But what speak you of things necessarie to saluation? The satisfaction in question is of no such nature. For you tell vsus, that all feare of eternall punishment is taken away by Christ, and a man may come to heauen, though hee neuer dreame of any temporall satisfaction; the worst is but the enduring of the painted fire of Purgatorie for a certaine time.

speaker A. W. Besides prayer is one part of satisfaction, as shall be proued hereafter: D. B. P. An easie cause to satisfie.and so by oft praying for pardon, we may well satisfie for much temporall punishment.

Praying for pardon is a poore satisfaction, else might a felon, or a traytor easily satisfie for his fault, and the punishment, especially for the imprisonment and fine you speake of. But we shall examine this better, when we come to answere your profe of it.

speaker W. P. Reason IV. The iudgement of the auncient Church. Tertul. de Baptism. Guiltinesse being taken away, the punishment is also taken away.

speaker A. W. M Perkins fourth Argument is taken out of certaine odde fragments D. B. P. You are glad i… patch vp your arguments with such fragments. Tertul. de Baptis. Pag. 28.of auncient writers.

Guiltines being taken avvay, the punishment is also taken avvay. True: he that is guilty of nothing, cannot iustly be punished: for guiltines is a binding vp to punishment (as M. Perkins defineth) then if the band to punishment be cancelled, the party is freed: but all this is nothing to the purpose, for guiltines of temporall punishment doth remaine after the sin and guilt of eternall be released.

If by these odde fragments you meane the treatises of the authors whence the testimonies are fetcht, you are glad to patch vp your profes out of these odde fragments. If you meane the sentences alleaged, what bring you of this kind but odde fragments? And what else can be brought, vnlesse a man should absurdly write out the whole treatise?

speaker D. B. P. Your answere is nothing to Tertullians purpose, who speakes of washing by baptisme, in which both guilt and punishment are wholie taken away. Death (saith iiTertul is. cap. 5.Tertullian) is destroyed by washing away of sinnes, but death is the whole punishment of sinne, kkGen. 2. 17.Gen 2:17The day thou eatest thou shalt p. 360dye, therefore freedome from death, is freedome from the whole punishment.

speaker W. P. **Serm. 37. de verbis Apost.August. Christ by taking vponupon him the punishment and not the fault, hath done away both fault and the punishment.

speaker D. B. P. Iust: the eternall punishment which was due to that fault, not the temporall: as S. Augustine himselfe declareth. God of compassion doth In Enchir. cap. 70.blot out our sinnes committed, if conuenient satisfaction be not on our parts neglected.

speaker A. W. To what was the temporall punishment due? if to the fault, it is taken away, vnlesse there be some fault, for which Christ hath not satisfied, or that punishment may be due, where there is no fault. Beside the punishment that Austin speakes of, as you would easily hauehave seene, if you had lookt vponupon the place, and not answered by gesse rather then by skill, is our mortalitie, which is no part of the eternall punishment. He (saith llAug. de verb. Dom. Ser. 37.Austin in his sermon 37. de verbis Domini, not de verbis Apostoli, where there are in all but 34.) had two good things, righteousnes, and immortalitie; we two naughtie things, sinne, and mortalitie. Sinne (as he shewes afterward) was our fault, mortalitie our punishment. This Christ tooke vponupon him, that he did not, and by taking the one freed vsus from both, namely so, that mortalitie is no longer a punishment, and we by him shall be come immortall. As for the satisfaction he requires, it is not to procure release of any punishment belonging to vsus, but to shew our repentance, which God will take knowledge of by outward actions, so that when he sees them he may seale vp our forgiuenes by assurance of it.

speaker W. P. And Tom. 10. hom 5. he saith, when wee are gone out of this world, there will remaine no compunction or satisfaction. Some new Editions hauehave foisted in the worde [aliqua] and so hauehave turned the sense on this manner: There will remaine no compunction or some satisfaction. But this is flat against Augustines meaning, who saith a little before, that when the way is ended p. 361there is no compounding of our cause with any.

speaker D. B. P. To that other sentence out of him: VVhen vve are gone out of this Tom. 10. Hom. 5. Th… ▪ thought not so, that … sted in … ▪vvorld, there vvill remaine no compunction or satisfaction: It is easie to answere vvithout the helpe of any new edition. For it will be too late then to repent, and so there is no place left to compunction, that is, contrition of hart: neither consequently to confession, or satisfaction: as if he had said, before we goe out of this world, there is place for both compunction, and satisfaction, and so that place is rather for vsus.

speaker A. W. The satisfaction required by Austin, is nothing else but true repentance, or newnes of life, that we louelove God, our neighbours, and our enemies, as it followeth immediatly vponupon the words set downe, That we may (saith mmAug. lib. hom. 50. homil. 5.Austin) do all these things, that is, hauehave compunction, and make satisfaction by the help of God, let vsus louelove, not our friends only but our enemies also, that that may be fulfilled in vsus which is written, The whole law is fulfilled in one word, Thou shalt louelove thy neighbour as thy selfe: now this is a necessarie dutie, and cannot be properly any satisfaction. But for such satisfaction as we make by repentance there is place in this world. And howsoeuer a man himselfe cannot make satisfaction in his owne person but by suffering after this life, yet by your doctrine he may by other men, and hauehave full pardon and release, procured him at the Popes hands, or otherwise by masses and almes paid for, and bestowed after his departure. And therefore in your learning Austin shewes either his ignorance, or his craft, in telling vsus, that we cannot satisfie hereafter, which is not true, but of satisfying in our owne persons.

speaker W. P. Chrysost prooem. in Esa. Say not to me, I hauehave sinned: how shall I be freed from so many sinnes? Thou canst not: but thy God can. Yea, and he will so blot out thy sinnes that there shall remaine no print of them: which thing befalls not the bodie, for when it is healed there remaines a skarre: but God as soone as hee exempts thee from punishment, Luc. 22. Petri negat.Luke 22he giueth thee iustice.

speaker D. B. P. All this is most true, and much against M. Perkins doctrine of the infection of originall sin: but nothing touching satisfaction: for we hold that the soule of a sinner when he commeth to be iustified, is washed p. 362whiter then snow: so that there is no staine or print left in it, of the filth of sinne. It is also freed from all eternall punishment, but not from some temporall.

speaker A. W. nnChrysostom. Prooem, in Esaiam.Chrysostome speakes not of originall sinne, but of dayly actuall transgressions (as his whole discourse shewes) which God by pardoning of them so takes away, as that neither guilt nor shame of them remaines in his sight, yea he makes supply of the contrary vertues. To Master Perkins purpose they are thus to be applied, that Chrysostome requires nothing of him that is to be pardoned for his full release, but repentance only, which thing he repeates oftentimes in that proeme before Esay, without any the least inkling of temporall satisfaction, which is almost as needfull as the other if your doctrine be true: for it is in our shallow estimation as fearefull almost to fry (I know not how many thousand yeares) in Purgatory, as to be for euer in hell. Euerlastingnes we cannot comprehend, many thousand yeares are as much as we can reach to, therefore since Chrysostome in that one preface so many times promiseth so full pardon, and requires nothing but repentance, it is more then likely he knew not your satisfaction.

speaker W. P. Ambrose saith, I reade of Peters teares, but I reade not of his satisfaction.

speaker D. B. P. Now gentle Reader, prepare thy selfe to behold a proper peece of cousenage. Ambrose saith, I read of Peters teares, but I read not of his satisfaction: Luk. 22.Luke 22The colour of the craft, lyeth in the ambiguity of this word Satisfaction, which is not alwaies taken for the penance done to satisfie for the former fault. But is sometime vsed for the defence, and excuse of the fact: So speaketh S. Paul, Bono animo prome satisfaciam, with good courage I will answere in defence of myselfe, or giuegive you satisfaction: in Act. 24. 10.Acts 24:10like manner Ready alwaies to satisfie euerie one that asketh you a reason of that hope vvhichwhich is in you: In this sense doth S. Ambrose vse the word as 1. Pet. 3.1 Pet 3is most plainly to be seene to them that reade the place: and conferre it with the very like of his, I find not (saith he) vvhat Peter said, but I finde that he vvept: I read his teares, but I read not his satisfaction: but that which Lib. 10. in Luc.cannot be defended, may be vvashed avvay. So that nothing is more manifest, then that satisfaction in this, and the like places, is taken for defence and excuse of his fault, which Peter vsed not, but sought by teares and bitter vveeping, to satisfie in part for it, for this bevvayling of our sinnes, is one speciall kind of satisfaction as Saint Ambrose testifieth, p. 363saying: That hee vvho doth penance, must vvith teares vvash avvay his Lib. 2. de poenit. cap. 5.sinnes.

speaker A. W. A man may easlyer behold malice in you, that construe eueryevery thing to the worst, then cousenage in the allegation of Ambrose: for if your interpretation of it be neuer so true, it is such as might escape a diligēt reader, and not be seene, yea perhaps if it had not bin so prest by our mē, you would hauehave read Ambrose ouer a good many times before you had dreampt of that sense. ooBellarm. de purgat. lib. cap. 13.Bellarmine (from whom you had this as the rest of your answers for the most part) layes no such matter to Peter Martyrs charge, out of whom he brings this obiection; you see not more then he did, but write with more spleene. If Master Perkins had read, and, at the writing of this sentence remembred Bellarmines answere, either he would not hauehave alleaged it, or else hauehave giuen some speciall reason for his allegation. But this (me thinks) may be obserued out of this testimonie, that ppAmbros. Ser. 46.Ambrose accounted confessing, and crauing of pardon to be the satisfaction God lookes for, which is alwayes performed by a sinner, before he can hauehave any true hope that his sinnes are forgiuen. This therefore going before the pardon of the eternall punishment, what other satisfaction shall neede for the temporall? Now that Ambrose in that place vnderstands by satisfaction both confessing his fault to Christ whom he had offended, and intreating for pardon, it appeareth by these speeches, and such like, qqAmbros. ad Luc. 22. lib. 10 cap. Petrus.Luke 22Therefore Peter brake out into teares, intreating nothing by voyce. Teares wash sinnes, which it is a shame to confesse. Teares are as it were silent prayers. I finde why Peter hold his peace, least the crauing of pardon so soone might more offend. Teares are part of repentance, when they come from the true griefe of the heart, but not any part of satisfaction for temporall paine, which we should else indure, as that very sentence of Ambrose prooues. Hee (saith Ambrose) that repents, must not only wash away his sinnes with teares, but also couer and hide his former sinnes with better deeds, that sinne be not laid to his charge. Now where sinne is not imputed, there can no punishment be due; and where p. 364such repentance is not, there sinne is imputed euen to eternall damnation. So that the teares Ambrose speaketh of are parts of outward repentance, for pardon of sinne, not satisfaction for temporall iudgements remaining after pardon.

speaker W. P. Againe, let vsus adore Christ that hee may say vntounto vsus, De bono mor.feare not thy sinnes of this world, nor the waues of bodily sufferings: I hauehave remission of sinnes.

speaker D. B. P. The other place cited out of S. Ambrose, de bono mortis, Let vsus adore Christ, that …e may say vntounto vsus, feare not thy sinnes, nor the vvaues of vvorldly sufferings, I hauehave remission of …n…es: is rather for vsus then against vsus: for if by adoring and seruing of God, vve may be put out of feare of our sins, and the punishment of them: then doth it follow, that praiers, and such like seruice of Christ, doth acquit vsus of sinne, and satisfie for the paine due to them.

speaker A. W. This adoring of Christ is comming to him, whereupon ensueth escaping of death, as it followeth a few lines after. Whosoeuer (saith rrAmbros. de bono mortis cap. 12.Ambrose, in our Sauiour Christs person) ssIoh. 6. 35.John 6:35comes to me, (that is, beleeues in me) shall neuer see death. By this adoring we are freed from all sinnes, and all punishment due to them, whereas, if your doctrine of satisfaction should be receiued, for all our comming to Christ by faith and true repentance, we might and ought stand in feare of grieuous punishment for many yeares in Purgatory. Neither doth it follow, that if by seruing God we may be put out of feare of our sinnes, then such seruice doth satisfie, for by true repentance we may be put out of feare of eternall damnation, and yet no man will say that therefore true repentance doth satisfie for eternall paine.

speaker W. P. Hierome saith in Psalm. 31. The sinne that is couered is not seene, the sinne that is not seene is not imputed: that which is not imputed, is not punished.

speaker D. B. P. To vvit, vvith hellfire: vvhichwhich is the due punishment of such mortall sinne, vvhereof he speaketh: or sinne may bee said to bee couered, when not only the fault is pardoned, but all punishment also due vntounto it is fully paide.

speaker A. W. If it be ttHieronym. in Psalm. 31.Ps 31not imputed, how can it be punished? for punishment is laid vponupon a man in respect of sinne, which he is charged with; neither can any thing be iustly punished with p. 365any kind of paine eternall, or temporall, but only sinne. Your second answere is wholie for vsus: for if sinne be then said to be couered, when the fault and the punishment are forgiuen, doubtles he that is iustified, is freed from both: witnes uuRom. 4. 6. 7. 8Rom 4:6Rom 4:7Rom 4:8Paul, and xxPsal. 32. 1. 2. Lib. 2. de poenit. cap. 5.Ps 32:1Ps 32:2Dauid, who auouch that iustification couers sinne, and suffers it not to be imputed.

speaker D. B. P. So doth S. Ambrose take that vvord couered, saying: The Prophet calleth both them blessed, as well him, vvhose iniquities is forgiuen in Baptisme, as him, vvhose sinnes are couered vvith good vvorkes: For he that doth penance, must not only vvash avvay his sinnes vvith teares, but also with better vvorkes couer his former sinnes, that they be not imputed vntounto him.

speaker A. W. If yyLib. 2. de poenit. cap. 5.S. Ambrose take the word couered in that sense (as indeed he and all men else do that speake of couering sin) iustification takes away the fault, and punishment of all sin) so that he which is iustified needs make no farther satisfaction.

speaker W. P. Chrysostome on Matth. hom. 44. Among all men, some indure punishment in this life and the life to come: others in this life alone: others alone in the life to come: others neither in this life nor in the life to come. There alone, as Diues, who was not Lord so much as of one drop of water: Here alone, the incestuous man among the Corinthians. Neither here nor there, as the Apostles and Prophets, as also Iob and therest of this kinde: for they indured no sufferings for punishment, but that they might bee known to be conquerours in the fight.

speaker D. B. P. Novv vve must backe againe vntounto Chrysostome, belike he had forgotten this, vvhen he cited the other, or else this vvas reserued to strike it deed.

Such excellent holy personages sufferings as are mentioned in the Scriptures, vvere not for their sinnes: for they committed but ordinary light offences, for vvhichwhich their ordinary deuotions satisfied abundantly: the great persecutions vvhichwhich they endured vvere first to manifest the vertue and povver of God, that made such fraile creatures so inuincible, then to daunt the aduersaries of his truth, and vvithall, to animate and encourage his follovvers. Finally, that they like conquerours triumphing ouer all the torments of this life, might enter into possession of a greater revvard in the kingdome of heauen. All this is good doctrine, but nothing against satisfaction, that their surpassing suffering, vvere not for p. 366their ovvne sins: and thus much in ansvvere vntounto M. Perkins Arguments against satisfaction.

speaker A. W. You that are so desirous to find faults, would not hauehave let Master Perkins scape without reproofe, if you had lookt this place in zzChrysost. in Math. homil. 42. & 44.Chrysostome, and found it to hauehave bin misquoted, though it was most like to hauehave bin the Printers fault. In stead of answering to this testimonie, you fall a discoursing of the end of the persecutions of holie men, whereas many of them were not persecuted at all: and Chrysostome speaks generally of sufferings, not of persecutions. But this must be obserued in your discourse, that howsoeuer you mince the matter of their ordinatie light offences, yet they themselues had another opinion of their sinnes. If thou Lord (saith aaPsal. 130. 3.Ps 130:3one of them) strictly marke what is done amisse, who shall stand? In bbPsal. 143. 2.Ps 143:2another place one cryes to God not to enter into iudgement with his seruant, because in his sight no man liuing shall be iustified. Yea Daniel, that ccDan. 10. 19.Dan 10:19beloued man, ddDan. 9. 7. 8. 11. 20.Dan 9:7Dan 9:8Dan 9:11Dan 9:20confesseth his owne, and his peoples sinnes to God, as matters that deserue no small punishment; yea there is almost no mans story set downe any thing at large in the scripture that hath not some speciall sinne obserued and recorded, which notwithstanding, if their sufferings were not punishments, to satisfie, how do you teach, that all sinnes must be satisfied for by vsus in part?

Obiections of Papists.

speaker W. P. Obiect. I. Leuit. 4. Moses according to Gods commaundement prescribed seuerall sacrifices for seuerall persons: and they were meanes of satisfaction for the temporall punishments of their daily sinnes. Answ. Those sacrifices were onelyonly signes and types of Christs satisfaction to be offered to his father in his alone sacrifice vponupon the crosse: and whosoeuer offered any sacrifice in the olde testament, did thus and no otherwise esteeme of it, but as a type p. 367and figure of better things. Secondly, the said sacrifices were satisfactions to the Church, whereby men did testifie their repentance for their offences, and likewise their desire to bee reconciled to God and men. And such kinde of satisfactions, wee acknowledge.

speaker D. B. P. Novv to the reasons vvhichwhich he produceth for it.Lib. 3. instit. cap. 4. num. 29.

And albeit he like an euil master of the campe, range our Arguments out of order, placing that in the sore-front of our side, vvhichwhich Caluin presseth out against vsus, yet vvill I admit of it, rather then breake his order.

speaker A. W. How good a master of a camp soeuer he were, he were of no great discretion, that hauing the marshalling of his enemies battaile in his hands, would not order it most for his owne aduantage. But to Master Perkins it was all one which was first, which last, if you thinke him beholden to you for your kindnes, he hath fully paid you, in bearing with your reciting of this, and diuers other his reasons.

speaker D. B. P. 1. Moses according to Gods commandement prescribed seuerall sacrifices, Leuit. 4. 5, 6.Lev 4:5Lev 4:6for the sins of seuerall persons, and ordeined, that they should be of greater and lesser prices, according vntounto the diuersitie of the sinnes. Whence we argue thus: These mens faults vponupon their true repentance, ioyned vvith faith and hope in Christ to come vvere pardoned: Therfore their charges in buying of sacrifices to be offered for them, their paines, and prayers in assisting during the time of the sacrifice, being painefull vvorkes done to appease Gods iustice, vvere vvorkes of satisfaction.

speaker A. W. To let passe your propounding the argument otherwise then Master Perkins doth, I answere to your Enthymem, by denying the consequence. Their sinnes (say you) were pardoned vponupon their faith and repentance, therefore their sacrifices, and other painefull works, were works of satisfaction. It followes not, for these very works were part of their repentance, which without them, when they could be done, was insufficient, and they were as requisite for the pardon of the eternall punishment (I speake as you Papists do) as of the temporall.

speaker D. B. P. Master Perkins ansvvereth, many things as men do commonly vvhen Hovv many Not aboue two.they cannot vvell tell vvhat to say directly to the purpose: First, that those sacrifices, vvere types of Christs suffering on the Crosse: vvhat is this to the purpose?

p. 368speaker A. W. How many things, trow you, doth Master Perkins answer? But poore two, and those more to the purpose, than you would. The obiection was, That those sacrifices which Moses prescribed seuerall persons, were satisfactions for sinne. This Master Perkins denieth directly, saying, that eeHebr. 10. 1.Heb 10:1they were appointed to be types of Christs satisfaction; which is most certaine. Do you aske what this is to the purpose? To shew, that there was another end of these sacrifices, than you imagine. But you will say, this doth not disprooue their being for satisfaction. Remember your selfe. Master Perkins answers, and you replie: who must prooue, he or you? He hath giuen you a reason of his deniall, which is as much as in extremitie can bee looked for of an answerer. Further replie shall hauehave further answere.

speaker D. B. P. Secondly, that those sacrifices were satisfactions to the congregation; and vvhat needed that, vvhen they had offended God only, and not the congregation as in many offences it happeneth.

speaker A. W. The sacrifices for those sins, by which the congregation had not been offended, were not properly for the satisfaction thereof: but onelyonly thus farre, that the people might perceiue, how carefull each man was to repent euen of his secret sinnes, and to hauehave them also purged by the blood of the Messiah to come, whereof those sacrifices were types.

speaker D. B. P. Againe, if satisfaction must be giuen to the congregation, hovv much more reason is it, that it be made to God? Read those Chapters, and you shall find, that they vvere principally made, to obtaine remission of God: as these vvords also do vvitnesse: And vponupon that sacrifice, the sinne shall be Leuit. 4. 20. The sinne as your selfe confessed vvas forgiuen before.Lev 4:20forgiuen them: So that sacrifices vvere to satisfie God, vvho thereupon forgaue the sinne, and all paine due to it.

speaker A. W. First, satisfaction was made to God alreadie, by the sacrifice of the Messiah to come, in whom they beleeued. Secondly, there was danger to the congregation by their sin, which might be an example of sinne to other. Thirdly, the people by these sacrifices was to be taught, that their sinnes prouoked the wrath of God, and were to be purged by the sacrifice of the Messiah. There is nothing in those chapters to prooue, that the end of those sacrifices was the obtaining of Gods merciemercy, otherwise for temporall punishment, than p. 369for eternall. And I am sure you will not say, they were to satisfie in that respect, though vponupon that sacrifice the sinne should be forgiuen, that is, vponupon their faith and repentance; of which those sacrifices were enioyned to be proofes and parts.

speaker W. P. Obiect. 11. Men, whose sinnes are all pardoned, hauehave afterward sundrie crosses and afflictions laide vponupon them, vntounto the ende of their daies: therefore in all likelihoode they make satisfaction to God for temporall punishments. As for example, the Israelites for murmuring against the Lord in the wildernesse were barred all from the lande of promise; and the like befell Moses and Aron for not glorifying God, as they should hauehave done at the waters of strife. Answ. Man must bee considered in a twofold estate, as he is vnderunder the law, and as he is vnderunder grace. In the first estate, all afflictions are curses or legall punishments, be they little or great: but to them that are in the second estate & beleeue in Christ, though the same afflictions remaine, yet doe they change their habite or condition, and are the actions of a Father seruing to be trials, corrections, preuentings, admonitions. 1. Cor. 11. 32. When wee are iudged wee are nurtured of the Lord: and, Heb. 12. 7. If we indure chastisment, God offereth himselfe vntounto you as children. And Chrysostome saith, 1. Cor. hom. 28. When wee are corrected of the Lord, it is more for our admonition then damnation: more for a medicine then for a punishment: more for a correction then for a penaltie. And whereas God denied the beleeuing Israelites, with Moses and Aaron to enter into the land of Canaan, it cannot be prooued that it was a punishment or penaltie of the law vponupon them. The Scripture saith no more but p. 370that it was an admonition to all men in all ages following, to take heede of offences, as Paul writeth, All these things came vntounto them for ensamples, and were written for our admonition, 1. Corinth. 10. 11.

speaker D. B. P. The reason for vsus (vvhichwhich indeed is the very ground-vvorke of satisfaction) may thus be framed: many after pardon obtained of their sins, hauehave had temporall punishment laide vponupon them for the same sins, and that by Gods ovvne order: vvherfore after the forgiuenes of the sinne, and the eternall punishment of it through Christs satisfaction, there remaineth some temporall paine to be endured by the party himselfe for VVe deny that any man hath been punished to satisfie for his sin.the same sinne: vvhichwhich is most properly that vvhichwhich vve call satisfaction. They deny that any man hath been punished temporally for any sinne, vvhichwhich vvas once pardoned.

speaker A. W. If this groundworke of satisfaction prooue ruinuos, the whole building will quickly fall. But it cannot be sound, because it is deceitfully laid. If by enduring temporall punishment for sinne, you meane no more but that, by occasion of sinne committed, many men hauehave had such chastisements, we grant your conclusion. But if you vnderstand by it, as the question is, that they hauehave borne these punishments to satisfie some part of Gods wrath, to which our Sauiours sacrifice either could not, or vponupon composition betwixt his Father and him, was not to reach, we denie the antecedent of your Enthymem, and say, that no man, beleeuing in the Messiah, euer suffered any such punishment for sinne.

speaker D. B. P. We proue it first by the example of the Israelits, vvhose murmuration against God, vvas at Moses intercession pardoned: yet all the elder sort Numb. 14.Num 14of them, vvho had seene the miracles vvrought in Aegypt for their deliuerance, vvere by the sentence of God depriued of the …ght of the Land of promise, and punished vvith death in the vvildernesse, for the verie same their murmuration.

speaker A. W. Was the eternall punishment, due to this their murmuring, pardoned at Moses request? If it were not, your example is not to the purpose: for our question is of them onelyonly, who hauehave that forgiuen. If it were, then al the people had true faith in the Messiah; which is a very bold assertion, without all likelihood of truth. But, no doubt, some of them were indeed true beleeuers. They were, and of them it remaines to be prooued, that their shutting out of Canaan, p. 371was to appease the remaines of Gods wrath against their murmuring. There is no such thing in the text, but ffNum 14. 22, Ioa 9 1. 2, Num. 14. 23.Num 14:22Num 14:23that God did it to make all the earth see his glorie. Adde hereunto, that this punishment was not occasioned by this sinne onelyonly, but by former murmurings, and those many (perhaps) not at all pardoned, by any such speciall entreatie of Moses.

speaker D. B. P. The like iudgement vvas giuen against Moses himselfe and Aaron, for not glorifying Gad at the vvaters of contradiction: both of them had their sinne pardoned, yet vvere they both aftervvard for the same de Numb. 20. Deut. 32.Num 20Deut 32barred from the entrance into the holy Land.

speaker A. W. The like answere I make to the example of Moses and Aaron; that is, I denie the antecedent. ggNum. 20. 11.Num 20:11Moses and Aaron were not punished, that God might be satisfied for the temporall punishment belonging to their sinne, but that they and the people might learne, to put their trust in Gods promises made to them, and to weight on him with patience. The end of their punishment was not Gods satisfaction, but their reformation, and the peoples.

speaker D. B. P. To this M. Perkins ansvvereth, first, that man must be considered in a tvvofold estate, as he is vnderunder the lavv, and as he is vnderunder grace: In the former estate, all afflictions vvere curses of the lavv: in the latter, they are turned vntounto them that beleeue in Christ, from curses into trials, corrections, For satisfaction vvas made by Christ.preuentions, admonitions, instructions, and into vvhat you vvill else, sauing satisfaction. Novv to the purpose: Whereas God (saith he) denied the beleeuing Israelits, vvith Moses and Aaron to enter into the land of Canaan, it cannot be proued that it vvas a punishment, or penaltie of the law laide vponupon them: the Scripture hath no more but that it vvas an admonition vntounto all ages follovving, to take heed of like offences, as Paul vvriteth: All th…se things came vntounto them for examples, and vvere vvritten for our admonition.1. Cor. 10.1 Cor 10

Reply. He that will not be ashamed of this audacious assertion, needs not to care what he saith: Hath the Scripture no more of their fact, then that it was an admonition to others? Turne to the originall places, where the whole matter in particular is related: First their murmuration, then Moses intercession for them, and the obtaining of their pardon, and lastlie, after all the rest, Gods sentence of depriuation of them from entring into the land of promise, for that their murmuration: Againe, Numb. 14. Numb. 20. vers. 24. Deut. 32. 51.Num 14Num 20:24Deut 32:51Aaron shall not enter into the land, because he hath been disobedient to my voyce: and of Moses. Because he hath trespassed against me at the vvaters of strife. So that nothing is more cleare euen by the testimony of the holy Ghost, then that their daies were shortened, and their p. 372hope of entrance into the land of promise cut off, in punishment of those offences, which were before forgiuen them. And these things being recorded as S. Paul testifieth, for our admonition and instruction: we are to learne thereby, that God so dea…eth daily with all those sinners that he calleth to repentance.

speaker A. W. Master Perkins denies not that this punishment was laid vponupon them for those sinnes, but that the Scripture affoords any proofe to shew, that it was a penaltie of the law, as a hhDeut. 27. 26.Deut 27:26part of the Curse, which appertaines to sinners by the law, iiGal. 3. 13.Gal 3:13for which Christ hath fully satisfied. The punishments, in themselues, were penalties of the law: but they are notsuch to them, who, by kkRom. 3. 25. 26.Rom 3:25Rom 3:26true faith in Christ, hauehave all their sinnes fully satisfied for by him.

speaker W. P. Obiect. III. Dauid was punished after his repentance for his adulterie, for the child died, and he was plagued in his owne kind, in the incest of Absolon: and when hee had numbred the people hee was yet punished in the death of his people, after his owne repentance. Answ. I answere as before that the hand of God was vponupon Dauid after his repentance: but yet the iudgements which befell him were not curses vntounto him properly, but corrections for his sinnes, and triall of his faith, and meanes to preuent further sinne, and to renew both his faith and repentance: as also they serued to admonish others in like case; for Dauid was a publike person and his sinnes were offensiue, both within the Church of God and without.

speaker D. B. P. What dotage is this to graunt the very same thing, which he would be thought to deny: but yet in other tearmes, that the simple (whom only What dotage is it for you to take one thing for another?he can beguile) may not perceiue it: If the hand of God were vponupon Dauid correcting him for his sinne, and that after his repentance: did not Dauid then suffer temporall punishment for his sinnes before forgiuen: Which is most properly to satisfie for them.

speaker A. W. Dauid was punished, but not to satisfie Gods wrath, remaining after the eternall punishment was taken away, by the sactifice of the Messiah, made effectuall to Dauid by his p. 373faith. The reason of his punishment (as ll2. Sam. 12. 14.2 Sam 12:14the Scripture expresly saith) was the stopping of the Heathens mouthes, who were likely to blaspheme God, because of Dauids sin; as if God either would not hauehave seene, or had not cared what manner of man by his speciall prouidence he had preferred to the kingdome of Israel.

Master Perkins truly and constantly denies the same thing still, viz. that Dauids punishment was for satisfaction to God, by bearing part of the curse due to sinners by the law; which onelyonly is to satisfie. The reason of this deniall (that I may answere once againe for all) is, that mmGal. 3. 13.Gal 3:13Christ hath redeemed vsus from the curse of the law, being made a curse for vsus.

speaker D. B. P. Yea ouer and beside this punishment inflicted by God, he of his owne deuotion performed farre greater satisfaction, by putting on sack-cloath lying on the bare ground, by watering his couch with teares, and making He neuer dreamed of satisfaction in all this repentance. Psal. 50.Ps 50ashes his food, and in this most pittifull plight, he made most humble supplication vntounto God, to wash him more and more from his iniquitie: he neuer dreamed that this his satisfaction, should be any derogation vntounto the satisfaction of his Lord and Sauiour: but in the Psalme saith. That such an humble and contrite hart, is a sweete sacrifice vntounto God.

speaker A. W. Dauid had not so little feeling either of his Sauiours louelove, or his owne sinne, as to thinke that the one had satisfied by halues, or the other by such outward cariage could be satisfied for. His praying and humbling of himselfe was to another end; nn2. Sam. 12. 16.2 Sam 12:16partly to intreate for the childs life, whom he loued most dearely; and partly ooPsal. 51. 8. See 12. Art. part. 2. art. 1. ….Ps 51:8to obtaine the recouerie of that ioy and comfort, which he had formerly taken in the sense of Gods louelove to him; to which he was not to be restored but vponupon earnest repentance at Gods good pleasure.

speaker D. B. P. We deny not but the punishment of one, is a warning and admonition vntounto another, to take heed of the like: so may not they deny, but that correction is to the party himselfe, as an admonition to beware afterward, so a correction and punishment of the fault past. Which S. Augustine vponupon this verse of the Psalme. Thou hast loued truth, teacheth Psal. 50.Ps 50most plainely: saying. Thou hast not left their sins vvhom thou didest pardon, vnpunished: for thou before diddest so shevv mercy, that thou mightest also preserue truth: thou doest pardon him, that confesseth his fault, thou doest pardon him, but so as he do punish himselfe: and by that meanes both mercy and truth are preserued.

p. 374speaker A. W. That ppAug. ad Psa. 50.Ps 50punishment of a mans self, which Austin speaketh of, is not to make satisfaction, but to shew repentance; as it may well be gathered, because it is ioyned to forgiuenes; which can hauehave no place where the debt is paid. If I make satisfaction, God forgiues me not: If God forgiue me, what doe I satisfie for? Therefore the griefe and humiliation of a sinner, is not to satisfie God, that he neede not be forgiuen, but to repent that hee may be forgiuen. So farre is Dauid from pleading satisfaction by punishing himselfe, that hee intreates for pardon, vponupon confession of his fault. Because (saith qqGlossa. Ordin. ad Psal. 50. 6. è Castiodo…o.Ps 50:6the Glosse, out of Cassiodorus) he had told the truth by confessing, which God desires more than sacrifice: therefore he intreates for helpe.

speaker W. P. Obiect. IV. The Prophets of God, when the people are threatned with the plague, famine, sword, captiuitie, &c. exhort them to repent and to humble themselues in sackcloth and ashes: and thereby they turned away the wrath of God that was then comming forth against them. Therefore by temporall humiliation, men may escape the temporall punishments of the Lord. Answ. Famine, sworde, banishment, the plague, and other iudgements sent on Gods people, were not properly punishments of sinne, but onelyonly the corrections of a father, whereby hee humbled them that they might repent.

speaker D. B. P. Our fourth reason the Prophets of God, when the people were threatned with Famine, the Sword, the Plague, or such l…ke punishments for their sinnes, did commonly exhort them to works of penance, as fasting, prayer, haire-cloath, and the like to appease Gods wrath, iustly kindled against them: which being performed by them, God was satisfied. So (for example sake) the Niniuits at Ionas preaching, doing penance in sack-cloath and ashes, turned away the sentence of God against them.

M. Perkins answereth, that famine, the plague, and such like scourge… of God, were not punishments of sins, but corrections of a Father.

Reply. This is most flat against a thousand expresse texts of the Scripture: which declare that for the transgressions of Gods commaundements, p. 375he hath sent those punishments vponupon the people of Israell. And what is the correction of a Father, but the punishing of a shrewde sonne for some fault committed, yet in a milde sort? Or doth the Schoolmaster (which is Caluins example) whip the Scholler, or strike him with the f…ula, but to punish him for some fault? So that great Rabbins seeme not to vnderstand, what they say themselues, when they admit those scourges of God to be the corrections of a Father, but not the punishment for a fault. As though Fathers vsed to correct those sonnes, who neuer offended them: Or Masters to beat such Scholers as commit no faults.

speaker A. W. It is against neuer a one of those places, if there were ten thousand of them. Sinne was the occasion of those punishments, but they were not properly punishments for sinne to any of the people, who were pardoned by resting vponupon Christs satisfaction through faith, and manifested their true repentance by their humiliation. And such is the correction of a father, oftentimes perhaps more seuere, than some punishment of a Magistrate; yet not for reuenge and satisfaction, but properly for correction and admonition. You much mistake the matter, when you thinke we denie that they are laid vponupon vsus for sinne, and, because of your owne error, condemne our writers of not vnderstanding what they say. Correction is for the fault, but not to satisfie for it.

speaker W. P. O… thus, they were punishments tending to correction, not seruing for satisfaction.

speaker D. B. P. But saith M. Perkins, these punishments be tending to correction, not seruing for satisfaction: what senselesse ryming is this? By due correction of the fault, the party is satisfied in iustice: and when he that hath offended, doth abide such punishment as the grieuousnes of his offence did require, there is both due correction of the offendour, and due satisfaction vntounto the party offended.

speaker A. W. A professed scholler might know how to make difference betwixt rymes & figures of Rhetorike. Did you neuer heare of Epistrophe, when the like sound is repeated in the clauses of sentences? It is very like Master Perkins did not regard the figure, but hit vponupon it, as it were, by chance. Howsoeuer, it is not a ryme; because the vowels in the syllables, which hauehave the accent, are diuers. Well, for the matter you answer, That a punishment may be both for satisfaction and correction. What then? Therfore these are so. I denie the consequence; p. 376because (if I may repeate the same answere, as oft as you bring the same obiection) satisfaction is, in this case, made alreadie by Christ for as many as truly beleeue in him.

speaker W. P. And the punishments of God are turned from them, not because they satisfie the iustice of God in their owne sufferings, but because by faith they lay hold on the satisfaction of the Messias, and testifie the same by their humiliation and repentance.

speaker D. B. P. As we first grant that all satisfaction hath his vertue, from the grace of God, dwelling in vsus, which is giuen vsus for Christs sake: so to say that Christs satisfaction taketh away all other satisfaction, is iust to begge the principall point in question, and therefore an old triuants tricke, to giuegive that for a finall answere, which was set in the beginning to be debated.

speaker A. W. The answerer is not said to begge the question, but the replier. For to begge the questiō, is to take that for a proofe which is in question. Now it belongs not to the answerer to proue, but to the replier, whose person in this argument, not Master Perkins, but you sustaine.

speaker D. B. P. Looke vponupon the forenamed example of the Niniuits, of whom it is not certaine that they had any expresse knowledge of the Messias, and therefore were farre enough off from laying hold on his satisfaction. But most certaine and euident it is in the text, that God vponupon the contemplation of their workes of penance, tooke compassion on them, and was satisfied; as by turning away the threatned subuersion is most manifest.

speaker A. W. The example of the Niniuites is from the purpose: for if (as you confesse) they did not lay hold on the Messiahs satisfaction, how could they, by this repentance of theirs, applie this satisfaction of his to the purchasing of Gods fauour; which (as you taught vsus before) is the vse of your satisfaction? Secondly, if they had not true saith in the Messiah, rrBellarm. de poenit. lib. 2. cap. 12.their eternall punishment was vnsatisfied for; and we speake of that satisfaction which is made for the temporall, after the eternall is discharged. From this, and such like examples, wee may conclude, that God sometimes for beares to lay outward iudgements vponupon sinners, ss1. Reg. 21. 291 Kgs 21:29when, and because they humble themselues: but that these men made satisfaction to God, either by applying Christs satisfaction to p. 677themselues, or by redeeming the temporall punishment, remaining after the pardon of the eternall, or by making God amends for their former sinnes, neither can it be prooued, nor (I thinke) you, vponupon better aduice, will affirme.

speaker W. P. Obiect. V. Dan. 4. 24. Daniel giueth this counsell to Nabuchadnezar, redeeme thy sinnes by iustice, and thine iniquities by almes deedes. Behold (say they) almes deedes are made meanes to satisfie for mans iniquities.

speaker D. B. P. If by such good deeds our sinnes may be redeemed, as Holy writ doth testifie, then it followeth that such workes yeeld a sufficient satisfaction for them, for redemption signifieth a full contentment of the party offended, as well as satisfaction.

speaker A. W. This example of Nebuchadnezzar is no more to purpose, than that of the Niniuites. For the satisfaction we dispute of, cannot be performed by any, but him that hath his sinnes forgiuen, in respect of the eternall punishment, by the satisfaction of Christ: such as this King, at the least at this time, of the Prophets counsell was not.

speaker W. P. Answ. The word which they translate to redeeme, [as the most learned in y^e Chaldie tongue with one consent auouch] doth properly signifie to breake off, as if the Prophet should say: O King, thou art a mightie Monarch, and to inlarge thy kingdome thou hast vsed much iniustice and crueltie, therefore now repent of thine iniquitie, and breake off these thy sinnes, testifie thy repentance by doing iustice, and giuegive almes to the poore whom thou hast oppressed. Therefore here is nothing spoken of satisfaction for sinne, but onelyonly of testification of repentance by the fruites thereof.

speaker D. B. P. To Authours in the aire, without any pressing of the propriety of the word no answere can be giuen.

speaker A. W. Either your knowledge and reading is lesse than you would hauehave it thought to be, or you knew this answere to p. 378be true; and did but shift it off, that you might not seeme to Dan 4. 24. foreign Not of foreign But foreignDan 4:24be ouercome. The word indeed is hebrew, signifying to rub, and so to breake off by rubbing. It is properly spoken of cattell, which being yoked, rub against a tree, or wall, or some other hard thing, till they hauehave fretted their yoke in sunder, and so freed themselues. Hence is that speech of Gen. 27. 40. foreignGen 27:40Isaac to Esau: Thou shalt rub his yoke off thy necke. And from hence it is, that the word signifies to redeeme, or deliuer; yet not by making satisfaction, but by breaking the bonds in sunder. Seruants hauehave ruled ouer vsus, saith the Prophet, and Lament. 5. 8. foreignLam 5:8there is no man that rids vsus out of their hands. So Aaron bids the people to take or breake off their eare-rings, viz. by opening the ring, by which they were fastned. Agreeably hereunto Exod. 32. 2. 3. foreignExod 32:2Exod 32:3the Prophet in this place aduiseth the King to breake off his sinnes, which held him captiue, and so to free himself from them. And this is the first sense of the word; as it appeares also in the Hebrew Concordance and Dictionaries. Concor. l. Haebraic. Pagnin. Auenar.Beside, the onelyonly way for him to escape the iudgement threatned, which was temporall, was to giuegive ouer those sins, for which it was denounced: in which sense hee might bee said to redeeme his sinnes, in respect of the punishment to come; that is, to auoide and free himselfe from the euill, which else would fall vponupon him.

speaker D. B. P. But let vsus admit that it be broken off; his sinne not being co…etousnes, but pride and lacke of acknowledging al Kingdomes to depend vponupon God as the text it selfe doth specifie. To breake off this sin by almes, and compassion of the poore, is nothing else but by such workes of charitie, in some sort to satisfie Gods iustice, thereby to moue him to take compassion of him.

speaker A. W. The chiefe sinne was pride of his owne estate; the next to it, and issuing from it, oppression of many people: of that ttDan. 4. 22. 24.Dan 4:22Dan 4:24the Prophet spake in expounding the vision; here hee deales with him about the other, willing him to practise the contrarie vertues, that hee might so escape the destruction that was threatned: for the Prophet knew, that it was possible, euen for wicked men, to auoide punishment denounced, vponupon the forsaking of their outward sinnes, whereby they had prouoked the Lord to vse those threatnings.

p. 377And that by almesdeeds we are cleansed from our sinnes, our Sauiour Daniell 4. Luc. 11.Luke 11himselfe doth teach, saying. GiueGive almes, and behold all things are cleane vntounto you.

speaker A. W. That almes should be of force to clense men from their sinnes, and sinnes of a different nature from the contrarie to almes giuing, is a matter that hath no likelihood of truth in it. And much lesse can it be proued by that place of uuLuk. 11. 41.Luke 11:41S. Luke, where our Sauiour reproouing the hypocrisie of the Pharisies in washing so carefully before meats, as if they thought themselues otherwise cleane, when they respected not what wrong they did, and what extortion they vsed, exhorts them rather to purge their hearts of their couetousnes, and to giuegive to the poore, and then all these outward things, meate, drinke, and such like should bee cleane, and …it for them, without such superstitious washing.

speaker W. P. Obiect. VI. Matth. 3. 2. Doe penance: and bring forth fruits worthy of penance, which (say they) are workes of satisfaction inioyned by the Priest.

speaker A. W. Our sixt, Bring forth the vvorthy fruits of penance. That is, doe such D. B. P. Math. 3. Luc. 3.Matt 3Luke 3workes, as become them who are penitent.

Iohn, seeing the Pharisies come to his baptisme, exhorts them not onelyonly to make shew of repentance, but to bring foorth fruites, xxforeign.be seeming or worthie of them that repent. The same is otherwise thus exprest, yyAct. …6. 20.Acts 6:20To repent and turne to God, and to doe workes worthie repentance; to zzEphes. 4. 1.Eph 4:1walke worthie of their calling. But for the interpretation we agree in sense.

speaker D. B. P. Which (as S. Chrysostome expoundeth) are: He that hath stolen avvay Hom. 10. in Math.another mans goods let him now giuegive of his owne: he that hath committed fornication, let him abstaine from the lavvfull company of his ovvne vvife, and so forth. Recompensing the works of sinne, with the contrary works of vertue: The same exposition giueth Saint Gregorie, and to omit all others, Hom. 10. in Euang. In Psal 4.Ps 4venerable Bede interpreteth them thus Mortifie your sinnes by doing the worthie fruits of penance, to wit, by afflicting your selues so much for eueryevery offence, as vvorthy penance doth require, which vvill be a sacrifice of iustice, that is, a most iust sacrifice.

speaker A. W. So do we acknowledge the exposition which the auncients giuegive of it, though we thinke the exhortation to be somewhat larger then they seeme in the words alleaged, to make it: for it comprehends all kind of holie conuersation, p. 380not only the change of the grosse outward sinnes, which we doubt not was their meaning also, as it is manifest by Chrysostome in aaChrysost. ad Math hom. 10that place you bring, who describes the repentance that he speakes of to be not only a leauing of our former sinnes, but a fulfilling of good works, which he proues by that place of the Psalme, bbPsal 37.Ps 37Eschue euill and do good: and ccChrysost. ad Math. hom. 11.expounding those words, bring forth fruits &c. It is not enough saith Iohn to flie from naughtines, vnlesse we betake our selues to the practice of well doing. You see what he saith (quoth Theophylact) that we must not only auoid euill, but also bring forth the fruit of vertue. To which he addes for proofe that place of the Psalme. Yea we refuse not that of ddBeda ad Psalm. 4. & ad Math. 3. & ad Luc. 3.Ps 4Matt 3Luke 3Bede, for it is indeed a sacrifice fit for vsus in iustice to offer, that our repentance be answerable in proportion to our sinnes. But what is all this to prooue, that there remaines tempo all paine to be endured, whereby Gods wrath may be satisfied? especially when as Chrysostome saith plainely, that Iohn perswading the people to repentance, did it not that they might be punished, but that being made humble by repenting, and condemning themselues, because of their sinnes, they might come to the gift of pardon.

speaker W. P. Answ. This text is absurd: for the worde foreign, signifieth thus much, change your mindes from sinne to God, and testifie it by good workes, that is, by doing the duties of the morall lawe: which must bee done, not because they are meanes to satisfie Gods iustice for mans fine, but because they are fruites of that faith and repentance which lies in the heart.

speaker D. B. P. Reply. His answere is most absurd, for we argue out of these words (VVorthy fruits of penance.) And he answereth to the word going before, repent: which we vse not against them and for his glose or testifying our repentance, is sufficiently confuted, by the Fathers before alleaged.

speaker A. W. Surely a reasonable man might well thinke that you that hold a necessitie of satisfaction, and bring that text, did ground your argument vponupon Iohns charge to do penance. The authors alleaged do not confute that interpretation, by p. 381bringing another, which is not … …ty to it, at the least we denie your consequence vponupon their words.

And S. Iohn expresly maketh them the meanes to esca… wrath D. …. ….of God: saying, that the … was set to the …ose of the …rie, and vn lesse by worthy fruits of penan… they … God, they … …e … vp, and cast into hell fire: and … h… confute the …aying …d on Christs satisfaction by faith: saying … w…l not helpe you to say th… yee are the Sonnes of Abraham, w…o was …her of all true beleeueis: as much as if he had said, trust not to your faith hand off yee generation of vipers. For notwithstanding yee be the Sonnes of the faithfull, vnlesse yee amend your liues, and for the euill works, which ye hauehave deno… tofore, make recompence, and satisfie the iustice of God with good, y… shall be cast into hell fire.

speaker A. W. Neither doth Iohn speake of any satisfaction for the temporall punishment after the pardon of the eternall, but threatens them with euerlasting damnation, except they bring forth the fruits of repentance, as well as make a profession of it, by being baptised, so that if satisfaction be required in those words, d…btles it is that satisfaction which may free them from hell fire: but that (you confesse) is not to be performed by eueryevery man, for himselfe, but by Christ, for all that trust in him.

To whom seemes he to confute the very matter of all his preaching? not to eeBeda vbi supra.Bede, who in the place alleaged by you tels vsus, that Iohn exhorts the Pharises to humilitie, who were so proude because they were Abrahams children, that they would not confesse themselues to be sinners: nor to ffLyea, at Matt. 3.Matt 3Lyra, who writes thus, Because the Pharises & Lawyers refused Abrahams faith of Christ, therefore they lost the name of Abrahams sonnes. And certainely it had bin against reason for Iohn to hauehave disswaded the Saduces and Pharises from trusting in Christ, as well because it was his especiall commission to perswade men by all meanes to beleeue in Christ, as also for that there was not the least cause of suspition, that they would be ggMath. 11, 28, Ioan. 6. 35Matt 11:28John 6:35too forward to trust in him, who had so strong a perswasion of their owne righteousnes, that they could find no want of his help.

speaker W. P. Obiect. VII. 2. Cor. 7. 10. Paul setteth downe p. 382sundrie fruites of repentance: whereof the last is reuenge, whereby repentant persons punish themselues, thereby to satisfie Gods iustice for the temporall punishment of their sinnes. Answ. A repentant sinner must take reuenge of himselfe, and that is onelyonly to vse all meanes which serue to subdue the corruption of his nature, to bridle carnall affections and to mortifie sinne: and these kind of actions are restrainments properly, and not punishments: and are directed against the sinne, and not against the person.

speaker D. B. P. The 7. obiection with M. Perkins. Paul setteth dovvne sundry fruits of repentance, vvhereof one is reuenge, vvhereby repentant persons punish 2. Co. 7. 10.2 Cor 7:10themselues to satisfie Gods iustice, for the temporall punishment of their sins.

M. Perkins answereth. A repentant sinner must take vengeance of himselfe, and that is, to vse all meanes to subdue the corruption of nature, and to bridle carnall affections, which kind of actions are restrainements properly, but no punishments, directed against the sinne, but not against the person.

Reply. I neuer saw any writer so contradict himselfe, and so dull, that he doth not vnderstand his owne words. If this subduing of our corrupt It this he whom you so commended in the beginning?nature, be restrainments only from sinne hereafter, and not also punishments of sin past, how then doth the repentant sinner take vengeance of himselfe, which you affirme that he must doe? Reuenge as eueryevery simple body knoweth, is the requitall of euill past: We grant that all satisfaction is directed against sinne, and not against the person, but for the great good of the man, albeit that for a season it may afflict, both his body and mind too, as S. Paules former Epistle did the Corinthians.

speaker A. W. If he vnderstood not his owne words, he is like to hauehave small help of you, who either cannot, or will not conceiue his meaning aright. The reuenge that a sinner must take of himselfe is (saith Master Perkins) to vse all good meanes which serue to subdue his corruption: but this is not properly a punishment of the person, against whom it is not directed, but against the sinne, wherein now lyes the contradiction? for sooth because reuenge is a requitall of euill past, therefore the sinner in his reuenge, punisheth himselfe for his sinne. But Master Perkins hath alreadie answered, that the reuenge the Apostle speakes of, is of an other kind, being directed to the reformation of the partie, not p. 383to the punishing of him. It is called reuenge, because the Corinthians vsed the same meanes for the reforming of themselues, that men commonly do when they reuenge. If this word reuenge would not beare this interpretation (which you hauehave not proued nor can prooue) yet were not Master Perkins guiltic of contradiction, or not vnderstanding his owne words, but only of mistaking the sense of the word.

speaker D. B. P. But this sorrow being according vntounto God, doth much benefit the The text speaketh not of appeasing Gods vvrath.person, as the Apostle declareth. For besides this reuenge taken on himselfe to appease Gods wrath, it breedeth (as it is in the text following) in our corrupt nature, that loueth not such chasusement, A feare to returne to sinne, least it be againe punished. For where there is no feare of paines, and much pleasure, thither our corruption will runne headlong. It stirreth vp also in vsus, Indignation against sinne, and all the wicked instruments of it, A defence and clearing of our selues, with the honester fort, And an emulation, and desire to she as farie from sinne as other our equals, and consequently, A louelove of vertue and honest life, which freeth vsus from that sorrow and all other troublesome passions, all which are plainly gathered out of the same text of Saint Paul.

speaker A. W. Let vsus put the case to your liking, that this reuenge was a requit all of euill past, will it follow thereupon that therefore they did it to satisfie God for the temporall punishment which otherwise they were to hauehave indured: I trow not, your hhGlossa Interlin. ad 2. Cor. 7. 11.2 Cor 7:11glosse reserres it to their care to punish sinne, not to satisfie by punishing, that they might shew they mislikt and hated sinne, because (saith the Glosse) you punish euen your selues when you sinne, since you punish (saith another iiLyra ad 2. Cor. 7.2 Cor 7Glosse) your owne sinnes, and especially (since you punish) kkAliena potissimum.other mens. But if it were for satisfaction, a man would punish his owne especiallie, that he might auoid a greater iudgement. Your ordinary Glosse applies that reuenge to the sinne of the incestuous person. You hauehave shewed (saith the mmGlossa Ordin. ad 2. Cor. 7. 11.2 Cor 7:11Glosse) by punishing him that committed the incest, that nnIncontaminatos.you were vndefiled: so doth ooCaretan. ad 2. Cor 7.2 Cor 7Caietan also expound it, This (saith he) was the last effect against the incestuous person, for they vsed reuenging iustice in excommunicating him: so ppChrysostom. Theophylact. Hieronymab.Chrysostome, You punished them that had sinned against the lawes of God, so Theophylact, so Ierome.

speaker W. P. Lastly they make three works of satisfaction, praier, p. 384fasting, and almes deedes. For the first it is meere foolishnesse to thinke, that man by praier can satisfie for his sinnes.

speaker D. B. P. That praier doth appease Gods iustice, and obtaine pardon, God himselfe is witnes, saying. Call vponupon me in the day of tribulation, and J will deliuer Psal. 49.Ps 49thee. Prayer cannot be made without saith in Gods power, and hope in his goodnes, and therfore must needs be pleasing in Gods sight: by prayer we humble our selues before God, and acknowledge his omnipotencie, and our infirmity. By prayer we lament with bitter teares our owne ingratitude, folly and wickednes, and bewaile the grieuousnes of our sinnes: such prayer made King Dauid (as his Psalmes do testify) water his couch with teares, making them his food day and night: and by them he satisfied for his former offences. So did a farre greater sinner then he, King Manasses: who falling into tribulation, prayed vntounto This of satisfying is quite beside the text. a. Paral. 33. Of prayer, fasting, and almsgiuing. See 12. Art. par. 2. art. 2. C.the Lord his God, and did great penance before the God of his Fathers, and prayed, and entreated earnestly, and God heard his prayer, and brought him backe againe to Ierusalem into his Kingdome.

speaker A. W. God pardons sinners that call vponupon him for merciemercy and deliuerance, therefore their prayers appease his iustice. There is no shew of truth in this consequence. What though true prayer please God? doth it therefore satisfie his iustice? Whom doth it not please, that hee which hath offended, should craue pardon? yet is not this a satisfaction to iustice. Dauid and Manasses lamented their sinnes, and called vponupon God for merciemercy, but what scripture saith, they satisfied for their sinnes by so doing? It were an easy matter to satisfie iustice, if intreating pardon would make satisfaction.

speaker W. P. It is all one as if they had said, that a begger by asking of almes should deserue his almes: or, that a debter by requesting his creditour to pardon his debt, should thereby pay his debt.

speaker D. B. P. A begger doth not deserue his almes; because he makes not this former kind of prayer, **Such as your Aue-maries Hudled vp.but the short fleight one of the Protestants from the lippes outward: The like we say of a debter, whose creditor being a needie man, will not be paid without mony, but God who needs none of our goodnes, highly esteemeth of a humble and contri…e hart, grieued much for hauing sinned in the sight of God, and humbly suing vntounto him for pardon. To such a one he said. Did I not forgiue thee all thy debt, because thou besough est me.Math. 18.Matt 18

speaker A. W. Belike then if a begger do intreat an almes from his heart, p. 385by a set speach, as long as one of your Auemaryes, he deserues that he asks. If he deserue it, it is small charitie to giuegive it, and iniustice not to gide it. What if the creditor be not a needy man, and would be content to be paid his debt by a dayes labour, which, vponupon the mans intreatie he releaseth also, doth the detter satisfie by intreating? God forgiues vponupon intreatie, therefore intreating makes satisfaction. These loose consequences fall asunder of themselues without touching.

speaker W. P. Secondly, fasting is a thing indifferent, of the same nature with eating and drinking and of it selfe conferreth nothing to the obtainement of the kingdome of heauen, no more then eating and drinking doth.

speaker D. B. P. What an Epicurian, and fleshly Doctrine is this? Why then did the It is one thing to say fasting pleaseth God, another to say it satisfieth for sinne. Math. 6.Matt 6Niniuits fast, put on sack cloath, and lie on the ground (all which bodily afflictions are reduced to fasting) rather then eate, and drinke, and presume of Gods merciemercy, if the one had bin as acceptable to God as the other? Why is S. Iohn Baptist commended for his rough garments and thinne diet, if cherishing the flesh please God as well, as punishing of it? Christ saith expressely. That if vve fast in secret, his heauenly Father vvill repay vsus openly: Will he reward eating, and drinking so liberally? but of falling we shall hauehave a whole Chapter hereafter. Therefore Briefely I here conclude, that this Doctrine tendeth to the establishment of the Kingdome of Atheists and Epicures, whose sweet speech is. Let vsus eate, and let vsus drinke, for after death there is no pleasure. True: for such Belly-gods and th… followers.

speaker A. W. What a bad practise and foolish question are these of yours? Master Perkins saith, that fasting (of it selfe) conferres no more to the obtaining of heauen, then eating doth. You leaue out the principall point in reporting his opinion, and then you aske, why the Niniuits fasted, if eating be as acceptable to God (you must adde, of it selfe) as fasting? because though of it selfe it pleased not God, yet as part of repentance it doth when it shewes humiliation and sorrow. But they might hauehave fasted long inough, without being humbled, and hauehave bin neuer awhit the neerer for it. But let it be granted, that fasting did please God (of it selfe) as prayer doth, will you thereupon conclude that therefore it satisfies p. 386Gods iustice? Proue the consequence; Iohn Baptist is described to hauehave liued vponupon such meate as the place where he abode did ordinarily afford, but it is not said that he vsed a thin diet, much lesse is he commended for it, as if the thing (of it selfe) had pleased God. It was fit for him, by the extraordinarie direction of Gods spirit, to follow such an austere course of life, not to satisfie for any punishment, but qqLuk. 7. 31. 32. 33.Luke 7:31Luke 7:32Luke 7:33to make the Israelites the more carefully attend so extraordinary a mans preaching. The rrMath. 6. 18.Matt 6:18reward that God will giuegive to them that in priuate repent of their sinnes with fasting, is not because fasting (of it selfe) pleaseth him, but for that such fasting is part of their repentance.

speaker W. P. Thirdly and lastly almes deedes cannot be works of satisfaction for sinnes. For when wee giuegive them as we ought, wee doe but our dutie, whereunto wee are bound. And we may as well say, that a man by paying one debt may discharge another: as to say that by doing his dutie he may satisfie Gods iustice for the punishment of his sinnes. These we confesse be fruits of faith, but yet are they no workes of satisfaction: but the onelyonly and all-sufficient satisfaction made to Gods iustice for our sins, is to bee found in the person of Christ, being procured by the merit of his death, and his obedience. And thus our doctrine touching satisfaction is cleared: and it is to be learned carefully of our common people, because the opinion of humane satisfaction is naturall, and sticks fast in the heart of naturall men. Hereupon when any hauehave sinned, and feele touch of conscience any way, their manner is, then to performe some outward humiliation and repentance, thinking thereby to stop the mouth of conscience, and by doing some ceremoniall duties to appease the wrath of God for their sinnes. Yea, many thinke to satisfie Gods iustice p. 387by repeating the Creede, the Lords prayer, and the tenne Commandements, so foolish are they in this kinde.

speaker A. W. A man might suppose, that this man were pretely well seene in Carolo D. B. P. That is for you trauailers.Bussone, that thus ruffleth in graue matters with his simple Similes.

If the similies were as simple as your answers to them, a man should lose both his time and his labour to reade either of them, shew their vnfitnes for the purpose, if you can.

speaker D. B. P. That Almesdeeds redeeme our sinnes, purge vsus from them, and make And already ansvvered. Serm. de opere & eleenios.all things clean vntounto vsus, hath bin already proued out of holy scriptures, I will ioyne thereunto this one testimonie of that worthy Maityr Saint Cyprian. Our frailtie could not tell vvhat to doe, vulesse the goodnes of God, by teaching vsus the vvorkes of iustice and mercy, had shevved vsus a certaine vvay of preseruing our saluation, which is, that vvith Almesdeeds we might vvash cleane avvay the filth of sins, vvhichwhich vve had contracted after Baptisme. The holie Ghost speaketh in the Scripture, and saith. Sinnes are purged by almesdeeds and saith.

speaker A. W. Cyprian intending to exhort all men to almes deeds, is somewhat too farre caried with his earnestnes to perswade, especiallie since he ascribes to it the purging of sin, whereas it can reach no farther at the vttermost by your doctrine, then to satisfie for the temporall punishment. His proofe ssProu. 15. 27.Prov 15:27out of scripture is not there to be found, for though your vulgar translation hauehave it, yet it is not in the originall, nor in your ttInterlin. bibl. Arias Mont. Chald. paraphr. Vatablus.interlinear Bible, nor in Montanus, nor in the Chaldee Paraphrase, nor in Vatablus. The Greek seemes to hauehave had it added out of the uuTobi. 4. 11.Apocryphall.

speaker D. B. P. Now to M. Perkins Simile. We deny that a man is bound to giuegive all the almes that he can: We are bound to giuegive that which we may well spare, when there is great want: But almes (which is a part of satisfaction) is not giuen out of our superfluity, but spared from our necessarie vses. And is many times bestowed, when there is no such great need, vponupon building Schooles, Colledges, Hospitals, and Chappels, And this may VVhom may it serue? No reasonable man.serue to answere M. Perkins Similes against these three workes of satisfaction: If any man desire to know why wee make speciall reckoning of these three workes, it is principally for two causes: First, we being to satisfie, must performe it with such things, as be our owne, which be of three sorts, either they belong to our soule, or to our body, or to our externall goods; the goods of our mind, we offer to God by prayer, by fasting, and other bodily discipline, we exhibite vntounto him, A liuing hoast, holy and pleasing God. By Almesdeeds we make him an agreeable present p. 388Rom. 12. 1.Rom 12:1of our goods. Secondly, all sinne as S. Iohn teacheth, may be reduced 1. Epist. 2.to three principall heads. The concupiscence of the flesh: that is heacherie, which is cooled by fasting and such like afflicting of the bodie; Concupiscence of the eyes, Couetousnes, which is purged and chased away by almesdeeds: And pride of life, which is suppressed by humble prayer, and often meditation of our owne miseries.

speaker A. W. When we giuegive almes, as we ought (saith Master Perkins) we doe but our dutie. You answer, that we are not bound to giuegive all the almes we can. Is this to gainsay him? We are bound to spare, euen from our necessarie vse, when the necessitie of our brethren requires it. He that hath no more meate than to fill his owne belly, is bound to giuegive his brother part of it, if he see him readie to starue. As for other giuing, when we cannot spare that wee giuegive, and there is no necessitie, it is so farre from being a satisfaction for old sins, that it is a committing of new. But whence comes this distinction? It is not either in Cyprian, or in Toby, or that place thrust into the book of Toby. And out of question it was not Daniels meaning, that King Nebuchadnezzar should giuegive to the poore, so that he should come into want himselfe by giuing; Neither (I thinke) can you prooue it was our Sauiours meaning, when he exhorted the Pharisies to almes deedes. But doe you not perceiue that you marre all by this doctrine? Who will giuegive any thing at his death to your Monasteries, if he may not by giuing make some satisfaction? And what satisfaction▪ can then be made, when a man giues all of superfluitie, as hauing need of nothing? There must be some helpe thought on for this matter, or all will be naught. That which followes, presumes there must be satisfaction made, and shewes why you thinke those the fittest meanes for to satisfie by. But where the foundation is ouerthrowne, what shall wee neede to thrust at the building. OnelyOnly I will adde here in the end of this discourse, a few, of many meanes, for the procuring of pardon by satisfaction. Pope Iohn the 22. granted seuen hundred yeeres of pardon to eueryevery one, that should kisse three times the measure of our Ladies foote (as Pardon. 700. yeares.you call her) and should say deuoutly three Auemaries to her blessed honour and worship. The measure is to be had p. 389in Spayne, printed together with the graunt of pardon, I hauehave caused it to be printed and inserted in this place.

Monstra te esse Matrem: sumat per te preces.

Qui … nobis N… tus tulit … se tuus.

Shew thy selfe to be a Mother: let him by thy mediation receiue our prayers.

Who f… our sak… vouchs… to be th… Sonne.

p. 390El Papa Iuan 22. Concedio a quien besare esta medida tres vezos, y rezare tres Aue Marias deuotamente, a su bendito honor y reuerencia, gana setecientos an̄os de perdon. Y es libre de muchos peligros. Teniendo la Bula de la santa Cruzada. Impressa con licencia. Dirigida a la deuocion del Cauallero de Gracia. Pope Iohn the 22. granted to eueryevery one, that shal kisse this measure three times, and shall say three Aue-Maries deuoutelie to her honour and worship, to hauehave seuen hundred yeeres of pardon; and to be free from many dangers; alwaies prouided that he hauehave the Bull of the holy Cruzada. Printed by authoritie, directed to the deuotion of the Knight of Grace.

p. 391Sixtus the 4. granted to all them that deuoutly say a short Horae Virginis Mariae ad vsum Sarisburiensis Ecclesiae. Fol. 42. a. Yeares 11000. Fol. 38. b.prayer (beginning Aue Maria mater Dei) before the image of our Ladie, the summe of eleuen hundred yeeres of pardon.

He that shall deuoutly say that prayer (Obsecro te Domina) &c. before our Ladie of Pitie, she will shew him her blessed visage, and warne him the day and houre of his death, and in his last end the Angels of God shall yeeld his soule to heauen, and he shall obtaine fiue hundred yeeres, and so many Lents of pardon, Yeares 500. Lents. 500.granted by fiue Popes. Enough for failing.

Sixtus the Pope to eueryevery one (being in the state of grace, which Fol. 45. a.must be obserued) that shall say (in the morning, after three tellings of the Aue-bell) three times the whole salutation of our Ladie, granted for eueryevery time so doing, of the spirituall treasure of holy Church three hundred daies of pardon. Toties quoties.Daies 300. toties quoties. Fol. 50. b. Deliuer 15. souls of Purgatory, Conuert 15. finners. Confirme 15. righteous. Fol. 54 a. Yeares 32755.

These be fist…ene Oos, which S. Briget was wont to say, &c. who so say these a whele yeere, shall deliuer fifteene soules out of Purg… of his next kinred, and conuert other fifteene sinners to goodlife, and other fifteene righteous men of his kinde, shall perseuere in good life.

To all them, that before this Image of Pitie, deuoutly say fiue Pater nosters, and fiue Aues, and a Credo, pitiously beholding these armes of Christs passion, are granted thirtie two thousand, seuen hundred, fiftie fiue yeeres of pardon.

Sixtus the 4. made the fourth and fifth prayers, and hath **Caused his pardon to be bulled. Fol. 58. a. Daies 3000. for deadly sinnes. Yeares 10000.done bulled his foresaid pardon.

Iohn the 22. hath granted to all, that deuoutly say this prayer, after the eleuation of our Lord Iesus Christ, three thousand daies of pardon for deadly sinnes.

Boniface the 6. granted tenne thousand yeeres of pardon, vponupon the saying of another prayer, betweene the eleuation, and the three Agnus Deis.

Sixtus the 4. hath granted to all them that be in the state of Fol. 60. a. Cleane remission of all their sias perpetually enduring.grace, saying this prayer following, immediatly after the eleuation of the bodie of our Lord, cleane remission of all their sinnes perpetually enduring.

And Iohn the 3. hath granted to all them that deuoutly say the same prayer before the Image of our Lord crucified, as many p. 392daies of pardon, as there were wounds in the bodie of our Lord, in of the time of his bitter passion; the which were 5465.Daies 5465. The number vvounds that vvere in our Lords body in the time of his Passion. Fol. 66. a. Yeares 1000000. Fol. 72. a.

Who that deuoutly say these prayers, shall obtaine tenne hundred thousand yeeres of pardon for deadly sinnes: granted by Iohn the 22.

Who that deuoutly with a contrite heart daily say this Orison; if he be that day in the state of eternall damnation, then this eternall paine shall be changed him into temporall paine of Purgatorie; then, if he hauehave deserued the paine of Purgatorie, it shall be forgotten and forgiuen, thorough the infinite merciemercy of God.

But, that I may not tire the reader, and make him cast his gorge at such abominations, which are Popish satisfactions for sinnes, I will giuegive you a view of the number of yeeres for which pardon is graunted in this one booke, viz. **Yet Purgatorie is to last no longer then the vvorld.1076832.

speaker D. B. P. But now to knit vp this question. Let vsus heare briefly what the best learned, and purest antiquity hath taught of this satisfaction done by man, and because M. Perkins began with Tertullian, omitting his auncients. Let vsus first heare what he saith of it in his booke of penance. Hovv Hovv many of his auncients can you alledgefoolish is it (saith he) not to fulfill our penance, and yet to expect pardon of our sinnes, this is not to tender the price, and yet to put out a hand for the revvard: for God hath decreed to set the pardon at this price: he proposeth impunity to be redeemed vvith this recompence of penance.

speaker A. W. This is but a tricke, to make a shew, as if Master Perkins had omitted some ancienter than Tertullian, which else you could hauehave alleaged. But who is so little acquainted with your courses, that he knowes not we hauehave here the best you can bring?

Tertullian, as the ancient writers generally, speakes of repentance, without which it is vnreasonable and vaine to looke for pardon. Now, whereas they mention, and vrge oftentimes the outward workes, it was, because without them, neither the Church could be satisfied, and men would easily deceiue themselues with an opinion of repentance; or at the most with some slight thinking vponupon, and grieuing for their sinnes. This appeares in xxTertull de poenit. cap. 6.that very place immediatly after: Therefore if they that sell, first trie the coyne p. 393which they are to receiue, that it be not clipt, nor washt, nor countenfeit, we may well thinke that God will first make triall of the repentance, especially since he is to grant vsus so great a reward of eternall life. But let vsus deferre the truth of repentance a while. By which words it is plaine, that Tertullian speakes of testifying our repentance to be true, by those outward signes of it, which doe ordinarily accompanie it where it is true.

speaker D. B. P. His equall in standing, and better in learning Origen, thus discourseth. But worse for errors. Hom. 3. in lib. Indic.See our good Lord tempering mercy vvith seuerity, and vveighing the measure of the punishment in a iust and mercifull balance: he deliuereth not vp a sinner for euer. But looke hovv long time thou knovvest thy selfe to hauehave offended, so long doe thou humble thy selfe to God, and satisfie him in the confession of penance.

speaker A. W. That which I answered before of Tertullian, is made good by this place of Origen: that repentance is the satisfaction they required. Looke not (saith yyOrigen. hom. 3. ad Iudic.Origen) immediatly vponupon the former words, That Chusarsacon should humble thee, and necessitie driue thee (spight of thy teeth) to repentance: but preuent thou this tormentors hands: because if thou amend and correct thy selfe, God is pitifull and mercifull, who will temper reuenge toward him that hath preuented it by repentance. So that it is not satisfaction, but amendment that God lookes for.

speaker D. B. P. That glorious Martyr, and most learned Arch-Bishop S. Cyprian, is vvonderfull vehement against them, that vvould not hauehave seuere penance done, by such as fel in persecution, saying. That such indiscreet men, labour tooth and nayle, that satisfaction be not done to God, highly offended against thē. And saith further, That he who withdraweth our brethren from these workes of satisfaction, doth miserably deceiue them, causing them that might doe true penance, and satisfie God their mercifull Father, vvith their prayer and vvorkes, to perish dayly. And to be more and more seduced to their further damnation.

speaker A. W. The former testimony out of **Cyprian. Epist. 10. §. 1.Cyprian is falsely alleaged. The words are these: Our brotherhood is deceiued by certaine amongst you, who while they desired to be plausible, without regard of restoring zzSalutis.health, doe more hurt them that are fallen. There is no word of satisfaction to God. The case was this, certaine Christians had fallen from the profession of religion in time of persecution, who were restored to the enioying of the word and Sacraments, before they had sufficiently p. 394repented, and testified their repentance to the congregation. By this presumption and rashnes in receiuing these men; the honour of the Martyrs, shame of the Confessors, and the peace of all the people (as Cyprian saith) were disturbed. He therefore writ this epistle, against that bad practise of admitting them that had denied Christ, to the Sacrament…, before either the Church were satisfied, or these men had repented toward God, as was meete. Whereby it came to passe, that whereas by being held out, they might hauehave been brought to true repentance, by this hastie receiuing of them they made light of their grieuous sinnes, and remained in state of damnation. Which is the very thing, that Cyprian affirmes, in the other testimonie, which followes in the same epistle, presently Cyprian. Fp. 10. §. 2.after the amplifying of the sinne, by certaine places of Scripture.

speaker A. W. S. Basil saith. Looke to thy selfe, that according to the proportion of thy fault, thou maist hence also borrovv some helpe of recouering thy health. Is it D. B. P. Lib. 1. Epist. Lib. 3. Ep. 14. Orat. in illa verba attende Libi. Idem Am. …d virg. lap. cap. 8a great and grieuous offence? it hath then need of much confession, bitter teares, a sharpe combat of vvatching, and vncessant and continued fasting: if the offence vvere light and more tollerabte, yet let the penance be equall vntounto it.

aaBasil. in illa verba attende tibi.Basil saith no more than we grant; That our repentance must be proportionable to our sinne. If you gather from thence that we must satisfie God therby, I deny your consequence. The end is, that wee may become more carefull of sinning, and more truly humbled, to increase our thankfulnes to God, for pardoning vsus.

speaker D. B. P. S. Gregory Nazianzen saith, It is as great an euill to pardon vvithout some punishment, as to punish vvithout all pittie. For as that doth loose the Orat. in sanct. lum. Idem de paup. amor.bridle to all licentiousnes, so this doth straine it too much.

By compassion on the poore and faith, sinnes are purged, therefore let vsus be cleansed by this compassion, let vsus scoure out the spots and filth of our soules vvith this egregious herbe, that makes it vvhite, some as vvoole, others as snovv, according to the proportion of eueryevery mans compassion and almes.

speaker A. W. bbNazianzen. …ratione 39. in sancta lumina.Nazianzens end of requiring punishment (as himselfe makes it plaine) is the restraining of vsus from sinning: but this prooues not, that wee can, or must satisfie for the temporall punishment of our sinnes to God. For this effect may easily be wrought in vsus, though wee be not pu…t vp with a p. 395conceit of our abilitie to satisfie. What is it that should encourage vsus, but hope of immunitie? But neither do we promise, nor can any man looke for freedome in this case. For though God looke not for any further satisfaction than our Sauiour Christ hath made him, yet he will chastice our sins sharply, for example to other men, and our owne amendement.

His other ccNazianzen. de pauper. amore.speach is an earnest exhortation to compassion and mercy, and (as Sixtus Senensis hath taught vsus) may not be prest to the vttermost. There is no doubt, but God likes of mercy and pitie on the poore very highly, and rewards it with increase of grace euen in this life, by which we may be said to finde fauour with God for the auoiding of diuers chastisements, not because of their worth, but for that the Lord by them gratiously takes knowledge that we hauehave a desire and care to please him.

speaker D. B. P. S. Ambrose saith, VVe hauehave many helpes vvhereby we may redeeme our De Helia & ieiun.sinnes, …ast thou mony? Redeeme thy sinne, not that our Lord is to be bought and so…, but thou thy selfe art sold by thy sinnes, redeeme thy selfe vvith thy vvorkes, redeeme thee vvith thy mony.

speaker A. W. ddAmbros. de Elia & ieiunio, cap. 20.Ambrose hauing taught before, that being redeemed by the blood of Christ, we are not to hauehave to do with the works of the deuill, and that if we do sinne, he that once hath pardoned vsus will not remember the wrongs we hauehave done him, proceeds to exhort vsus to the redeeming or satisfying for our sinnes, by all outward meanes of true repentance, and namely by vsing well the goods that God hath bestowed on vsus: he that will presse this by the word, may vrge satisfaction for sinne by it, not only for punishment. Redeeme thy sinne. Beside, you told vsus before that satisfaction is not made, but by that, which is spared from our necessarie vses. Ambrose here speakes of abundance. Make (saith he) of the instrument of co…etousnes, a help of mercy. And he brings that out of the eeProu. 13. 8. D. B. P. Epist. 82.Prov 13:8Prouerbs, though misaplied, A mans riches are his redemption.

speaker A. W. And, Hovv could vve be saued, vnlesse vve washed away our sinnes by fasting.

ffAmbros. Epist. 82.The other testimonie also speakes of washing away, not p. 396satisfying for the punishment due to it in Purgatory. He that will reade the place, and see the weake proofes that are brought for it, will not greatly rely vponupon the authoritie of the writer in that case, yet I had rather expound this and such like passages, of repentance so testified and assured to our selues and God, then of satisfaction.

speaker D. B. P. S. Hierom maketh Paula a blessed Matron say, My face is to be dissigured, which against the commandement of God I painted: my body is to be afflicted, that hath taken so great pleasure: my often laughter, is to be recompenced vvith continuall vveeping: my silkes and soft cloathing, it to be Ad Eustoch. de obitu Paulae.chaunged into rough haire.

speaker A. W. The like may be said to that of ggHieron. ad Eustoch. de obitu Paulae.Ierome, and this beside, that Paula had now resolued, as it followeth in that place, to giuegive hir selfe to please Christ, and not the world, which she could not well doe if she continued in the vanities thereof.

speaker D. B. P. Read another Epistle of his to the same Eustochium, about the preseruing of her virginity, and see what penance himselfe did, being a most vertuous young man.

speaker A. W. As for the penance (as you call it) that Ierome himselfe did, it was not to satisfie Gods wrath for his sinnes, but to subdue his owne corrupt affections, which makes me the rather so expound the former of Paula. I subdued (saith he hhHieron. ad Eustoch. de virginit.in that place) the rebelling flesh, by fasting diuers weekes. And afterward, if they suffer this, (that is as the place shewes, if they be so tempted) who, their body being consumed, are assaulted by thoughts only, what temptations is a virgin subiect to, who liues in the abundance of delights? Yea, Ieromes whole epistle to hir, perswades to the auoyding of courtly temptations, by the forsaking of the place of danger, not to satisfaction by penance.

speaker D. B. P. S. Augustine saith, He that is truly penitent, lookes to nothing else, then that he leaues not vnpunished the sinne vvhichwhich he committed: For by that Epist. 54.meanes, not sparing our selues, he vvhose high and iust iudgment no contemtuous person can escape, doth spare vsus.

speaker A. W. The argument of the iiAug. Epist. 54. ad Macedon.epistle to Macedonius, is the anowing of the priests praying for them, who hauing sinned, promise ecclesiasticall penance. The clause you alleage out of it makes nothing against vsus, who confesse, that our looking p. 397into our owne faults, and condemning our selues for them, and (if you will) afflicting our minds and bodies to, became we hauehave offended, is many times an occasion that God withholds his hand from shiking. For his end being our reformation, by the sight of our sinne, and his iudgement due vntounto it, in the nature of the thing, when this effect is alreadie wrought in vsus, to what purpose should God draw his sword to chastice?D. R …. Lib. … hom. Ho…. 50. cap. 1….

speaker A. W. And he sheweth how that a penitent sinner doth come to the Priest, and receiue of him the measure of his satisfaction.

The very beginning of the kkAug lib. hom. 5. homil. 50. cap. xi.homily sheweth, that it is true repentance Austin there intreates of, because he proues the necessitie and profit of that which he there requires, by those places of scripture which vrge humiliation, and amplifies the parable of the Publican, who was iustified in his humilitie, rather then the Pharisie, though he fasted twice a weeke, and gaue tithes of all that he possessed. The end of comming to the priest, Austin makes this, that he may iudge whether the sinne require any publike satisfaction to be made to the Church, or no, that if his sinne (saith Austin) be not only to his great hurt, but also to the offence of other, and it seeme expedient to the priest, for the benefit of the Church, he may not refuse to do penance before many, or euen before the whole multitude, and not by shamefastnes adde pride to the deadly sore.

speaker D. B. P. And he saith directly against our Protestants position, That it is not Cap. 15.sufficient to amend our manners, and to depart from the euill vvhichwhich vve hauehave committed, vnlesse we do also satisfie God, for those things which vve had done.

speaker A. W. How is this testimonie of llAug hom. 50 cap. 15.Austin against our position? do we say it is inough to leaue sinne, though we sorrow not for it? nay do we not teach, that no man can leaue that sin, for which he is not truly and hartily grieued, vnlesse perchance he change one sinne into another? The satisfaction that God requires is that which Austin there describes out of the mmPsal. 51. 17.Ps 51:17Psalme, The sacrifice to God is a troubled spirit, an humble and contrite heart God will not despise. This is all that the Prophet whom he alleageth requires in that place. Austin p. 398addes almes, which we willingly acknowledge as a sacrifice greatly pleasing God, and fit to testifie true repentance, that hauing found mercy at Gods hands, we may also shew mercy to other.

speaker A. W. S. Gregorie saith, That sinnes are not only to be confessed, but to be blotted out with the austerity of penance.D. B. P. Li. 6. in 1. Reg.

speaker D. B. P. What saith nnGregor. lib. 6. cap. 15. in 1. Reg. In Psal. 1.Ps 1Gregory more then I hauehave oft acknowledged? that we may not thinke it sufficient to confesse we hauehave sinned, but must also bewaile our sinnes committed.

I will close vp these testimonies, with this sentence of our learned country-man venerable Bede: Delight (saith he) or desire to sinne, vvhen we doe satisfaction is lightly purged by almesdeeds, and such like: but consent is not rubbed out, vvithout great penance: novv custome of sinning is not taken avvay, but by a iust and heauie satisfaction.

speaker A. W. You were ashamed to set downe Beades proofe of these three points, least the weakenes of his reasons might lighten the waight of his authoritie. Delight in sinne (saith ooBeda in Psalm. 1.Ps 1Bede) is likened to Iairus daughter, who was raised to life by the touching of her hand, (he forgot that Christ bad her rise) so is that purged by almes, and such like light satisfaction. Consent is signified by the yong man that was carying out to be buried, and is not wiped out but by heauie penance. Will you heare his proofe, for our Lord doth not reach out his hand to him, but saith to him as it were ppPulsu & grauitate.with a certaine mouing of him, and grauitie, yong man I say vntounto thee arise. By Lazarus, hauing lien foure dayes in the graue, and stincking, both the simple act, and the custome of sinning is signified, which is not taken away and pardoned, but by a right and heauie satisfaction, which is vnderstood by the lowdnes of our Lords voyce, and his groning in spirit at the raising of him. As weake as this groundworke is to beare so waightie a building, we will not offer to push at it, if you will giuegive vsus leaue to make that reasonable interpretation, which I hauehave prooued to be intended by diuers of Beades auncients, that he meanes only to teach vsus, that as sinnes differ in heinousnes, so must our ret entance in waight and measure: if this like you not, whatsoeuer damage this worke of Beade shall hauehave, the fault shall be yours wholie, and not ours at all.

p. 399speaker D. B. P. And if you please in few words, to heare the Protestants works of penance and satisfaction: Insteed of our fasting, and other corporall correction: they fall to eating, and that of the best flesh they can get, and take in the Lord, all such bodely pleasure, as the company of a woman will afford. In lieu of giuing almes to the poore, they pill them by fines and vnreasonable rents: and by vsury and crafty bargaines, are not ashamed to cousen their nearest kinne. Finally, in place of prayer, and washing away their owne sins by many bitter teares, they sing meerely a Geneua Psalme, and raile, or heare a railing at our imagined sinnes, or pretended errors. And so leaue, and lay all paine and sorrow vponupon Christs shoulders, thinking themselues (belike) to be borne to pleasure and pastime, and to make merry in this world.

speaker A. W. This spitefull and slanderous inuectiue of yours sauouring neither of conscience, nor ciuilitie, whereby you charge your soueraigne, his counsailers, nobles, gentrie, and all, that any where in sinceritie professe the Gospell of Iesus Christ with flat Epicurisme, I wittingly omit, holding it more Christian like to be railed vponupon without cause, then to raile vponupon desert. We vse our libertie with moderation, how you priests and Iesuits obserue that which feare of damnation, hope of reward, the lawes of your superiors, and your owne vowes bind you to, I had rather eueryevery man should iudge according to his knowledge, then suspect by my reporting of that, which would not seeme very vnlikely.

The seuenth point. Of Traditions.

speaker W. P. Traditions are doctrines deliuered from hand to hand, either by word of mouth, or by writing, beside the written word of God.