A Dangerous Plot Discovered, Chapter 16 – Chapter 17

A Dangerous Plot Discovered · Chapter 16 – Chapter 17

p. 96CHAP. XVI. The point ſet downe in the former Chapter is diſcuſſed.

HEre we enquire of three things.

1 Whether his doctrine of Images, bee true or not.

2 Whether he conſenteth therein, with the Church of Rome or not.

3 Whether he diſſenteth therein from the Church of England or not.

His conſent with the Church of Rome, is ſufficiently teſtified by their words and his. He ſaith, Images may be had in Churches: and, Honour is due; and to be giuen vntounto them. So ſaith the Councell. He ſaith, Honour is due, and giuen relatiuely. The Councell ſaith, The honour exhibited to Images is referred to the prototype: which is the ſame with his. He ſaith, They may be vſed for the inſtruction of the ignorant, recalling the memory of the hiſtory, and ſtirring vp of deuotion. The Councell ſaith: The articles of faith may be learned by them, men put in mind of the benefits by Chriſt, and ſtirred vp to giuegive thankes, for the miracles, and to imitate the vertuous actions wrought by the Saints. Which differeth nothing from him.

He concludeth the point of Images thus;

Let practice and doctrine goe together, we agree. So that the queſtion is not; what may bee giuen them. Gagg. p. 319.

Theſe words (as they lye) be voyd of ſenſe: they p. 97containe neither affirmation nor negation: they bring nothing that is affirmed of, or denied vntounto: (to ſpeak formally) they hauehave neither ſubiect, predicate, nor vinculum.

If this word your be added vntounto the words practice, and doctrine, and the word then bee put before the words we agree, then that ſentence may bee vnderſtood: but he will not abide him that ſhall doe ſo, for he rageth againſt him that ſhall doe ſo, Appeale. p. 256. &c. Whether thoſe words be added or no, his agreement with the Church of Rome, doth ſufficiently ſhew it ſelfe in them: for, 1. theſe words are ſpoken vntounto the Church of Rome, with whom he hath this preſent diſputation: for in the former part of this diſcourſe he ſaith vntounto them, Whatſoeuer you ſay, &c. In your practice, &c. So that it is all one, as if he had ſaid, Let your practice and doctrine goe together, &c. 2. By doctrine hee meaneth all the doctrine of their Church; for he ſpeaketh of doctrine without limitation, and thereby extendeth his agreement with them in their whole doctrine touching Images: which is further confirmed by ſaying, the queſtion betweene him and them is not what may be giuen them. Which is as much as if he ſaid, I conſent vntounto their whole doctrine. 3. By the doctrine of their Church, he muſt vnderſtand the decree of the Councell of Trent: for their Church hath no other doctrine but that: the reſt is opinions of ſingular men: ſo that his ſentence now ſet downe, is as if he had ſaid,

I agree with the Councell of Trent in the point of Images.

Now the Councell of Trent hath decreed in the p. 98place alledged; that,

The honour to bee giuen to Images, is kiſsing of them, vncouering the head, and bowing downe before them.

Which muſt be vnderſtood to be M^r Mountagu his ſentence alſo.

Notwithſtanding all this plaine euidence, yet I preſume he will deny his agreement with the Church of Rome: becauſe,

The ignorant amongst them giuegive them honour due vntounto God, and the learned amongst them (as Thomas by name, and others with him) perſwade, that as much honour is to bee giuen to a woodden Crucifix, as to Chriſt himſelfe in heauen.

For thus he writeth, and in this hee putteth the difference betweene himſelfe and them, Gagge, page 299. and 319.

I anſwer; this is not ſufficient to excuſe him from agreeing with the Church of Rome: for the one inſtance alleadged is matter of fact: and hath not to doe in this buſineſſe, which concernes onelyonly the faith of their Church; the other which is the ſentence of Thomas, is matter of opinion, which the Councell hath not decreed: and Bellarmine ſaith, de Imag. lib. 2. cap. 20. there be three opinions in their Church touching this thing: whereof this of Thomas is but one; ſo that we may conclude, hee differeth from them in one opinion held by ſome amongſt them: and this is all hee ſaith; and therefore for all this hee conſenteth with them in matter of faith, which is the thing wee ſeeke for.

p. 99I anſwer further; It doth not appeare, that hee doth 3diſſent from them in this opinion neither. For he yeeldeth honour vntounto Images, Gagge, page 318. but, doth not ſhew vsus what is the nature thereof, whereby wee might bee able to diſcerne the difference of that honour which he giues, from that which they giuegive.

If it be replyed, the Councell giueth little honour to Images, and that which Thomas giueth is the main and chiefe thing to be blamed. I anſwer; that honour which the Councell giueth, is falſely giuen, and is a matter of faith, which we may not receiue: for eueryevery falſe faith is an addition to the diuine reuelation.

If you aske, whether hee agreeth with the Church 4of England, or not: Hee will anſwer, he doth agree with it, and doth affirme ſo much in effect, Gagge, page 318. 319. but it is a meere pretence without ſhew of truth: hee can alleadge no one paſſage in the Doctrine of the Church of England, which appointeth that any Images of Chriſt and the Saints ſhould be ſet vp in Churches, or that any kinde of honour ſhould be done vntounto them, being ſet vp there: or, which aſſigneth vntounto them any vſe in religion: much leſſe, that they ſhould be helpes of piety, &c. The caſe being ſuch, it was a face without a face, that ſaid, wee and Proteſtants doe them all, Gagge, page 318.

The very truth is, he doth contradict the Doctrine 5of the Church of England, in ſome of theſe poſitions directly, and in other ſome by neceſſary conſequence, and I proue it thus;

The Doctrine concluded and vrged in the Homilies, is the Doctrine of the Church of England. For,

p. 100The Booke it ſelfe, and the vſe thereof, is eſtabliſhed by publike authority, and the ſubſcription of all Miniſters, Artic. 35.

But he doth contradict the Doctrine concluded and vrged in the Homilies.

Therefore he doth contradict, &c.

The aſſumption or ſecond part, will bee apparent to him, that readeth the words on both ſides, ſet downe in the former Chapter. It ſaith, Idoll and Image is the ſame thing: and alleadgeth the vſe of Scripture for it. He ſaith, Image and Idoll may be two things, that is, are not one; It ſaith, Images may not be brought into Churches, and that being there, they bee vnlawfull, and intollerable: He ſaith, they may bee brought into Churches, they are not vnlawfull, and are ſometimes profitable: all which are direct contradictions: affirming, what it denieth, and denying what it affirmeth. Laſtly, if Images may not be brought into Churches, then may they not be imployed in religion, for helpes of piety, the inſtruction of the ignorant, and the ſtirring vp of deuotion, &c. for theſe are more then that, becauſe Images in Churches may bee for ornament, or for no vſe. The Homilie doth deny the placing of Images in Churches, therefore it muſt alſo deny them to be helpes vntounto piety, &c. now he teacheth contradictory to this, in making Images helpes vntounto piety: therefore hee doth contradict that which followeth vponupon the words of the Homilie, by neceſſary conſequence. Let vsus ſee how he will auoid this obiection, and for that end, thus he ſaith, Appeale, page 260.

I admit the Homilies to containe godly exhortations: 6but not as the publike dogmaticall reſolutions p. 101of our Church, or Doctrine to bee propugned and ſubſcribed in all and eueryevery point.

I anſwer; in the 12. Chapter, no 8. hee extold the Doctrine of the Homilie, as an authenticall record of the Doctrine of the Church of England. In this place he denies them to containe the dogmaticall reſolutions of our Church, (ſo conſtant is hee, and ſo ſettled in his iudgement.) Let vsus take what he will admit; which we finde to be three things: firſt, they are exhortations; ſecondly, godly; thirdly, To bee propugned and ſubſcribed in ſome things. I require no more: Exhortations they are, (that is) matters of manners, all of them are not matters of faith, and therefore they doe not all containe reſolutions of faith: but ſome of them bee matters of manners. He grants them to be godly, therfore true, for falſhood cannot tend to godlineſſe. They are ſubſcribed, in ſome things, therefore in this that I hauehave alleadged; becauſe it is not a rhetoricall enforcement, nor a Tropicall kinde of ſpeech, but the concluſion enforced; which is ſet downe in words that hauehave no other ſenſe but as they lie, without interpretation. This is enough to proue my propoſition, and thus I diſpute from it.

EueryEvery exhortation propounded, inforced, eſteemed godly, commanded to be ſubſcribed vntounto by our Church, is the Doctrine of our Church.

But the Doctrine of the Homilie alleadged, cap. 15, is an exhortation propounded, inforced, &c. by our Church.

Therefore the Doctrine of the Homilie alleadged, cap. 15. is the Doctrine of the Church of England.

p. 102Thus hee confirmeth the obiection which hee is deſirous to thruſt off: The ſight of truth may bee hindered, but the being of truth cannot be defeated: hee that attempteth to conceale it, in the euent makes it more apparent.

Now we come to ſee what truth there is in his Doctrine 7touching Images: but I finde no proofe for that. It may be hee expecteth arguments to proue, that Images in Churches are vnlawfull: and that no honor is to be giuen vntounto them, but that ſhould be vnorderly: for hee that will hauehave vsus beleeue that wee are bound to giuegive honour to Images by the diuine reuelation, ought to ſhew vsus record for it: and mee thinkes it had beene comely for him to hauehave borrowed proofes from Bellarmine, de Relig. Sanct. lib. 2. cap. 7. 8. 9. 10. and 11. 12. As well as hee fetched poſitions from the Councell of Trent. To anſwer Bellarmine, is but labour loſt: for I know not how farre hee will ioyne with him in his proofes, and it would be too tedious; for he brings much more then will ſort with this occaſion, and preſent buſineſſe. Let M^r Mountagu vrge what he liketh beſt, and hee ſhall hauehave anſwer: till then, I reſt ſatisfied with the Homilie, that diſputeth thus againſt Images in Churches;

1 If the worſhipping of Images doe alwaies befall Images ſet vp in Churches, then it is vnlawfull to ſet vp Images in Churches.

But the firſt is true, perpetuall experience doth ſhew it: and the affinity that is betweene mans corruption, and the worſhipping of Images doth procure it, pag. 128.

p. 103Therefore the laſt is true alſo.

2 That thing which is vſed in order vntounto ſupernaturall actions, and is not warrantd in the diuine reuelation for that end, is vnlawfull.

But Images in Churches are ſo vſed, and are not warranted &c. pag. 88.

Therefore Images in Churches be vnlawfull.

Let not M. Mountagu ſay theſe are rhetoricall enforcements, and no Doctrine of the Church of England; I will ſaue him that labour. I doe alleage thoſe arguments for the truth that is in them; not for the authoritie that doth commend them. Let him ſhew wherein they be vntrue, or confeſſe they are true, and it ſufficeth.

But he is not able to ſhew this, and therefore wee may ſafely conclude; this man was ſtrangely tranſported, when he wrote on this manner, & in theſe words;

If the Church of Rome had giuen no more to Images but an hiſtoricall vſe, our Church would not hauehave departed from them about that point (as I ſuppoſe) for ſo our doctrine is, Appeale, p. 251. Our ſtricteſt writers doe not condemne it, p. 253. Furious ones in our Church would proceed, but they are ſingular illuminates, let them gang alone.

I anſwer; what the doctine of our Church is, in this point of Images, I hauehave declared in the foregoing Chapter. If you can bring any record, for any other paſſage in the doctrine of the Church of England, that putteth vponupon Images this hiſtoricall vſe, namely of ſuggeſting vntounto, mouing, or affecting the mind, euen in pious, and religious affections, which you father vponupon p. 104it, p. 253. you may doe well to bring it forth, that, the world may ſee it. But becauſe you cannot, I muſt intreat you to take the words of Biſhop Iewell vntounto Harding in the defence of his Apology, p. 350 without offence; which are as followeth,

Leaue, leaue this hypocriſie, diſſemble no more, it is not manly: your credit faileth ouermuch, your word is no ſufficient warrant.

If you will fall into your wonted fury, it is the Biſhop that muſt beare it; They are his words not mine and vttered vponupon the like occaſion that you offer here. I could adde a farther refutation, and pull off this falſe imputation from the ſhoulders of the Church of England, by the teſtimony of Biſhop Iewell; but I defer it vntounto the next paſſage, where the reader ſhall find it.

He wanted proofes for his doctrine of Images: but 9hee will make amends by his confident affirmation thereof, and negation of the contrary: For thus hee writeth:

There is no Popery in the hiſtoricall vſe of Images,

Appeale, pag. 252.

I anſwer; There is Popery in it: for it is the faith of the Church of Rome, as I hauehave ſhewed in the chapter going before: and it is contrary to the word of God, as I will ſhew anon; both which are ſufficient to make it Popery, euen in your owne iudgement: for thus you write,

Popery is contrary to the word of God, Appeal. p. 310.

But he doth deny that this vſe of Images is contrarie the word of God: for thus he writeth,

1 The hiſtoricall vſe of Images, is true doctrine in it ſelfe, Appeale, p. 251.

p. 1052 That Images may be made, for ornament, memory, hiſtory, no law of God forbiddeth, Appeale, p. 265.

I anſwer; Biſhop Iewell is a witneſſe ſo competent, to ſhew vsus what is true, or not true; what is forbidden or not forbidden in this caſe, that I ſhall need to produce none but him. Thus he writeth in his anſwer to Harding the 14 Article, p. 378. &c.

1 The firſt end of Images is, the attaining of knowledge, although perhaps ſomewhat may bee learned by them; yet is not this the ordinary way appointed by God to attaine knowledge. Saint Paul ſaith, faith commeth by hearing, not by gazing. This ſeemeth to be no handſome way for to teach the people, for where greateſt ſtore of ſuch Schoolemaſters be, there the people are moſt ignorant, ſuperſtious, and ſubiect to Idolatry.

2 I grant Images do oftentimes vehemently moue the mind, but eueryevery thing that may moue the mind, is not meet for the Church of God. Gods houſe is a houſe of prayer, not of gazing. Whoeuer adoreth, or maketh his prayer beholding an Image, is ſo moued in his mind, that hee thinketh the Image heareth him, and hopeth it will performe his prayer. Alleadged out of S. Auguſtin, p. 318.

3 Touching remembrance it is like the firſt, and therefore is already anſwered. Thus farre the reuerend Biſhop.

If old learning can ſatisfie this illumination, the Biſhop muſt gang alone. If it cannot, old learning ſhall hauehave a writ of dotage. The Biſhop ſhall hauehave the Church of England that furious one, and all her children to beare him company.

p. 106The Homilie concludeth p. 132. That Images ought to be aboliſhed: ſo doth the Biſhop p. 383. But Maſter Mountagu will none of that, Appeale, p. 255. The reaſon which our Church and the Biſhop doth alleadge is this, viz. becauſe they are the cauſe of much euill, M. Mountagu ſaith no; they are ſometimes profitable, Gagg. p. 318. But I will follow the Church of England, and the Biſhop: let him gang alone for me.

By theſe arguments of our Church, propounded, 10and defended againſt his exceptions, it doth euidently appeare, that Images in Churches, and imployed (as he appointed) are vnlawfull; and from thence may neceſſarily be inferred againſt the Church of Rome and M. Mountagu; that,

Honour is not due to Images.

If hee doth not reſt content with this proofe, it ſtands him vponupon to ſhew vsus the diuine law, which inioyneth man, to giuegive honour to Images: foraſmuch as, without ſuch a law, the honouring of them, is an humane inuention, & a ſeruice done vntounto God, which he reiecteth as odious and abhominable: and conſequently the faith decreed by the Church of Rome, and receiued by M. Mountagu, touching the hauing, imploying, and honouring of Images, is erronious.

p. 107CHAP. XVII. Of workes of ſupererogation.