Commentary on Romans, Treatise · Chapter 9 · Dialogue 6
DIAL. VI.
Verse 11. For ere the children were borne, and when they had neyther done good nor euill, (that the purpose of God might remaine according to election, not by workes, but by him that calleth.)
Tim.
VVHat is the drift of these words?
Silas.
To proue that God cannot be chargedScope. with failing of his word, so long as he keepes it with the elect.
Tim.
What is the meaning and substance of these words?
Silas.
That the saluation of beleeuers, depends notSumme. at all on our selues, but is all wholy to be ascribed to the election of God. Whereas all men are alike by creation and nature, and yet some beleeue, doe good workes and are saued, others beleeue not, but liue wickedly and doe perish, the cause of this difference is not in nobility of birth and bloud, or dignity of workes (as the example of Esau & Iacob sheweth) but in the election of God chusing some to life according to his will, and refusing others, because hee would not chuse them. Summarily, that which putteth the difference betweene one man and another, all men beeing alike, is Gods eternall election before all worlds. Whence it is, that some are not called to Christ, and some be, and of those which bee called, some beleeue being elect, & some do not beleeue, being not elect. Election being the fountaine of all our weale, therfore it would be taught distinctly, and well vnderstood, for it is a fundamentall doctrine, reuealed in the Scripture.
Tim.
From whence is this word Election taken?
Silas.
From the manners and affaires of men, who willNotation of the word. hauehave that to be firme, and to continue, which they hauehave by election chosen, and vponupon good aduice …. Whereas they are wont to alter such things which they rashly appointed, but hold fast what by good election they hauehave purposed: so are we to thinke of God, of whom the Scripture speaks after the manner of men, for our infirmity sake, noting to vsus in this word, the stablenesse of his decree.
Tim.
How manifold is Election?
Silas.
Two-fold, one humane whereby men chuse whō Diuision of the thing.and what they like aboue others. And another diuine, whereby God chuseth what and whom he loueth.
Tim.
How manifold is Gods election?
Silas.
Twofold also, one is to an office, as Iudas was elected to an Apostleship. The second is to grace and glory, as Peter and Paul were elected. I hauehave not chosen you all, one is a Diuell, yet Iudas was chosen one of the twelue.
Tim.
But is there any such thing as election, or be there any such persons as be elect?
Sil.
Yea there be, because holy Scripture mentioneth both in this and sundry other places, as Tit, 1, 1. Ephe. 1, 4. Rom. 11, 5. 2. Iohn, 1. 1. Thes. 1, 4. 2. Thes. 3, 13. & else-where mention is made of elect Angels and men.
Tim.
Seeing there is an election, tell vsus what it is?
Silas.
It is an eternall decree of God, purposing out of lost mankinde, some persons to bee saued by faith inDefinition. What election is. Christ, to the praise of God; and not chusing others but refusing them and appointing them to wrath. Herewith agreeth Augustine, saying; Predestination is a purpose in God, to hauehave mercy on some for Christ; and reprobation is the purpose not to hauehave mercy.
Tim.
How doe ye proue that election is eternall?
Silas.
Because it is written, God loued Iacob ere hee1. Election eternall. was borne, Rom. 9, 11. Also Paul saith so expresly, Ephe. 1, 4. before the foundation of the world was laid. The word predestination and fore-knowledge, prooueth it, for they note a precedent eternall counsel.
Tim.
Then they erre which thinke election to bee all one with calling.
Silas.
They doe so: for calling is a fruite of election, and is done in time after wee are borne, but election is before all time, and is the cause of our calling, as Chapter, 8, 30.
Tim.
Also if some onelyonly be chosen, then they are deceiued2. Particular. which will hauehave all to be chosen of God.
Sil.
True: First, then should all beleeue and be saued, because God changeth not. Secondly, because where all be chosen, there is no election, which is a chusing of some out of many. Thirdly, we hauehave examples of Reprobates, as Caine, Esau, Iudas, &c.
Tim.
Is there then a decree of reprobation as well as of election?
Silas.
There is so: for election is not the chusing and3. Election in ferreth reprobation. taking of all, (as appeareth by Gideon, Iudges, 7, 7. and Deut. 7, 6.) but a taking of some, with a forsaking of others, Secondly, Scripture speaketh of appointment to wrath, 1. Thes. 5, 9. and of an ordination to disobedience, 1. Pet. 2, 7. and to damnation, Iude, 4. Thirdly, experience teacheth this, because many vnbeleeuers and wicked men hauehave beene and be in the world; which sheweth that many be reprobates & refused, from whence it commeth, that they cannot hauehave faith and godlinesse, Iohn 10, 26. They beleeue not, because they be not my Sheep. Propositū dei ad uersu vni genus humanum sese extendit inquit. I utherus.(yet the proper cause of all misery is sinne, which stickes in mans nature, euen his Originall infection, Rom. 5.) Paul speakes heere of the whole purpose of God, as it containeth both election and reprobation, as the two examples proue, and verse 15. Whom he will be hardeneth. This makes against Huberus, who is for vniuersality of elect, and Stapleton, who restraineth this place to the elect. Also it appeareth that some be reprobated, because elect and reprobates bee opposed as contrarie, in Esay 41, 9. Lastly, God hath made Vessels some to merciemercy and honour, and some to wrath and dishonour, Rom. 9. And finally, our experience telleth and teacheth this, whilest daily wee see some called and altered, others abyde in their sinne.
Tim.
The decree of Election and reprobation, whether hathIn massa pura aut corrupta. it respect to the lumpe of man pure or corrupt, that is, were men chosen and refused as they stood vpright in Adam, or as they are corrupt in him? In which estate of these twaine did GOD consider them when he elected some?
Silas.
As they are corrupt by Adams fall, so Gods decreeIn massa corrupta was election made. of election and reprobation respects them; that is, to declare it more distinctly, God purposed to glorifye himselfe by mankinde, Prou. 16, 4. God made all things for himselfe, Rom. 11. God did purpose to create all righteous in Adam, and to suffer him to fall for causes knowne to himselfe: and of men being thus falne, hee purposed to saue some by Christ, these be chosen: and not others;Reasons. these be Reprobates: For such as we are when God iustifieth vsus, such he decreed to iustifie and choose: but at our iustification, we are vngodly and enemies, Rom. 4, 4, 5, 8, 9. therefore such he chose, and decreed to iustifie. Secondly, Christ the remedy, must needs in order of causes be purposed to be giuen to such as were falne: for man in his pure estate needed not Christ, therefore they were not then chosen in Christ. Augustin saith, that God of the same lost man originally, as a Potter made one vessell to honour, and another to dishonour.
Tim.
What is the foundation and ground of election?
Silas.
Christ Iesus, into whome hee purposed to ingrast vsus, as members into an head whome hee purposed to saue: see Ephe. 1. 4. The reason hereof is, because wee are chosen with respect of Christes merites, as the materiall cause or meane whereby all elect ones were to be saued.
Tim.
What cause moued God to elect some and not others?
Silas.
The cause is in himselfe, his own purpose and wil, calling vsus to himselfe of his meere purpose and good pleasure. Ephe. 1. 5. Iohn 3. 18. Not workes past, for men are chosen from euerlasting; nor workes present, for Iacob was loued and chosen ere hee was borne; not woorkes foreseene, for men were all corrupt in Adam: and not by workes, which in none are good by nature, but euill in allOracles is of the purpose of God, and the good plea sure of him who calleth. Origen. (contrary to Palagians;) not foreseen faith, for it is giuen according to election, whereof it is a fruite, and then wee had chosen God and not hee vsus: yea, nor Christ is not the impulsiue or moouing cause: for the louelove of God moued him to giuegive his Sonne. And finally, not our worthinesse or vnworthinesse, for by naturall corruption wee are all alike vnworthy, for Iacob and Esau were equall in this.
Tim.
GiueGive vsus some reasons to proue that nothing in man could moue God to chuse him.
Silas.
First, then election should not remaine firme by him which calleth, but depend vppon some good thing in our selues, be it faith or workes, that the purpose of GOD might remaine firme by merites; which is directly against the text here. Secondly, then we should hauehave some good thing in vsus which God giueth not. Thirdly, then grace should not be the high and soueraigne cause of all good, if there were something in vsus before it, as a moouing cause. Fourthly, election is deriued from grace, and not from ought in vsus, Rom. 11. 6. Fiftly, all good things come after the grace of election, as effects and fruites of it, Ephe. 1, 4. Sixtly, election is referred to the will and mercy of God in this Chapter, verse 16, Seauenthly, God hath as much right ouer men, as a Potter ouer his pots, which for his will sake, he maketh noble or base.
Eightly, Paul saw no other cause of election but the will of God, and it is dangerous to assigne that to bee a cause of election which Paul purposely entreating of this matter saw not; this is to make our selues wise, and him blockish, nay our selues wiser then the Holy-Ghost. Ninthly, if the cause of election were workes or faith, or vnbeleefe cause reprobation, what need he say, Oh theElection com meth from the will of the Elector, not from any thing in the elected. depth, or obiect, Is their iniquity with God? and therefore it necessarily followeth, that election is most free and absolute, without any dependance vponupon them. Yet God did not chuse vsus to the end without respect to the meanes, for his decree concerneth both meanes and the end. This is sufficient to stoppe the clamours of the Lutherans.
Tim.
Doe ye thinke so of reprobation, that it is free also without dependance on infidelity or ill workes fore-seene?
Silas.
In that some are not chosen to life, it is withoutReprobation priuatiue and positiue. all respect of their vnbeleefe, as a mouing cause; but in that they are not onelyonly refused, but also appointed vntounto destruction, this is not without reference to infidelity & sinne, which as it is the proper cause of damnation, so it moued God to ordaine to destruction, but not to refuse and cast out from saluation: for this was done to Esau ere he had done euill. Secondly, it is written, God hardneth whom he will; his will then is the high and first cause why men are not saued. Thirdly, God as a Potter mayWe ought to be content with this that Gods will is the onelyonly cause of election. Phocius. make vessels to ignominy for his wils sake. Fourthly, as we were corrupt in Adam, God could see nothing in any man, saue vnbeleefe and sinne. And therefore if these had moued him not to chuse, all had beene reprobated, then Paul also should hauehave said that the purpose might remaine according to merite. Lastly, there is no vnrighteousnesse to cast off and refuse for sinne, all will confesse this to bee iust.
Tim.
What is the end or finall cause of election?7. end of elec tion Gods glory.
Sil.
The vtmost end is the praise of his free grace, Eph. 1. 5. hence elect are called vessels of mercy, Rom, 9, 23. The nerest cause is mans saluation, to attain eternal life; and the final cause of reprobation, is the praise of his iustice, and the destruction of sinners.
Tim.
What be the effects of election?8. effects of election.
Silas.
Two: First, grace in this life, as redemption by Christ, vocation, faith, iustification, adoption, sanctification, repentance, good works, perseuerance in grace. Secondly, vnspeakable and endlesse glory in heauen.
Tim.
Are men and women elected to both these?
Sil.
They be so: for first, Iacob and Isaac were chosen to the grace of the promise, verse 8. but this comprehends al. Secondly, it were absurd to separate the means from the end, or end from the meanes. Thirdly, Scripture speaketh thus, Acts 13, 48. So many as were ordained to life beleeued. Fourthly, hec speaketh of election, which is a preparation of the Vessell of merciemercy to glorie, and which is ioyned with louelove, which is a willing of eternal life to men, and all things which bring thither.
Tim.
What vse of this point?9. election vn changeeble.
Silas
It confuteth the Papists, which say it is to grace, and not to glory; this they attribute to mans merits. Secondly, it reprooues such as thinke themselues elect to life, they wanting notwithstanding the meanes of effectuall calling and good life. Thirdly, it comforts such as hauehave the means; that they are sure they be elected to the end, for meanes and end be linked together.
Ti.
May they perish whō God hath chosen & purposed to saue?
Sil.
No they cannot, for the purpose remaines firme. Secondly, God is vnchangeable, and his louelove is so too. Thirdly, then God should not be Almightie, if he were not able to saue such as hee was once willing to saue. Fourthly, there would be no sound comfort to the godly, except this foundation of God remaineth sure, God knoweth who are his, 2 Tim. 2, 19.
Tim.
May such as be elect know themselues to be such?10. election knowne.
Silas.
They may know it by their calling; therefore isRom: 9, 23, 24 election heere ioyned with calling, and before Rom. 8, 28, 30, because the counsel of election, being hid before in the counsell of God, is manifested in our calling.
Tim.
What should this teach vsus?
Silas
First, that such as hauehave but an outwarde calling by the Gospell, ought to hope well of their owne election, that it cōmeth of his purpose to saue them by saith. Secondly, because many are called which be not chosen, it should stirre vp all sorts of Christians to examine their owne hearts, whether they hauehave obeyed their Calling, hauing their hearts changed from vnbeleefe and louelove of sinne, to faith, and louelove, and practise of righteousnesse. Thirdly, let such as yet feele not this calling, not dispair, for who knoweth what may be tomorrow? God calleth and turneth at all houres, Mat. 20, 1, 2. Example in Paul, and the theefe, &c.
Tim.
What are we to thinke of the election of others?
Silas.
First, let eueryevery man be most careful of his owne, to assure it to himselfe by graces of the Spirit, 2 Pet. 5, 6, 7. Secondly, in charitie we are to hope well of all which heare the word, and outwardly obey it, 1 Thess. 1, 6. Leaue to God the iudgement of certainty and the searching of hearts.