A General View of Papistry, Book 1 · Controversy 3

A General View of Papistry · Book 1 · Controversy 3

p. 80THE THIRD CONTROVERSIE CONCERNING COVNCELS.

A Councel is nothing else but an assembly and gathering together of the people of God, about the affaires and businesse of the Church: and they are of two sortes, either vniuersall in the name of the whole Church; or particular, which are either National, when the learned of a whole Realme are called together; or Prouincial, when as the Churches of one Prouince doo assemble into one place to consult of Religion.

There may be two especiall occasions of Councels: the one for resisting and rooting out of heresies; as the Apostles and elders met together, Act. 15. against those which would hauehave imposed the Iewish ceremonies vppon the beleeuing Gentiles. So the Councell of Nice was celebrated the yeare of the Lorde 327. to confound the heresie of Arrius, who denied Christ, as he was God, to be equall to his Father. In the Councel of Constantinople, Anno 383. or there aboute, the heresie of Macedonius was condemned, which denied the holy Ghost to bee God: In the Ephesine Councel the first, Nestorius heresie was ouerthrowne, which affirmed Christ to hauehave two persons. Anno 434. The Councel of Chalcedon was collected Anno 454. about the heresie of Eutiches, which held that there was in Christ but one nature after his incarnation, so confounding his humanitie and diuinitie together.

p. 81The other cause of the calling of Councels, is, to prouide & establish holsome Lawes, decrees and constitutions, for the gouernement of the Church: so the Apostles called the brethren together, Act. 6. to take order for the poore. And in the Councell of Nice an vniforme order was established for the celebration of Easter, which before had much troubled the Church.

The questions betweene vsus and the Papists, concerning Councels are these, First, whether generall Councels be absolutely necessarie. Secondly, by whome they ought to be called. Thirdly, of what persons they ought to cōsist. Fourthly, who should bee the president of the Councel. Fiftly, concerning the authoritie of them. Sixtly, whether they may erre or not. Seauenthly, whether they are aboue the Pope. Eightly, of the conditions to be obserued in generall Councels: of these in order.

THE FIRST QVESTION CONCERNING the necessitie of Councels.

The assertion of the Papists.

THey seeme in wordes to affirme, that Generall Councels are not absolutelie error 29 necessarie: for the Primitiue Church was without any Councel for the space of 300. yeares and more: yet they hold that some Councels, either generall or particular, are of necessitie to be had. Bellarmine de concil. lib. 1. cap. 11. And yet this is to be maruelled at, that they should so much stand for Councels, seeing they might vse a farre more compendious way, in referring all to the determination of the Pope, whome they boldly, but very fondly affirme, that hee cannot erre.

Although they seeme not to lay a necessitie vponupon Generall Councels, yet in truth they doo contrarie: for they allowe no Councels at all, without the Popes consent and authoritie, neither thinke it lawfull for any Nation or Prouince, to make within themselues any innouation or change of Religion. So in the assembly at Zuricke. Anno 1523. For the reformation of Religion, Faber tooke exception against that meeting, affirming that it was no conuenient place, nor fit time for the discussing of such matter, but rather the cognition and tractation thereof belonged to a generall Councel. Sleid. lib. 3.

And further they hold, that what hath beene decreed in a Councel, cānot be dissolued but by the like Councel, as if the Councel of Trent were to bee disanulled, it must be done by the like Synod. Bellarmine de cōcil. lib. 3. ca. 21. Which Councel they affirme to hauehave been general, & therefore another general Councel must by their opinion necessarily be expected, before it can be reuoked.

The confession of the Protestants.

WE doe hold that generall Councels are an holesome meanes for the repressing and reforming, both of errors in Religion, and corruption in manners: and that true generall Councels ought to bee much desired, and conueniently p. 82expected: that is, such a Councell, where eueryevery man franke & free may vtter his minde without feare: an holy Councel, where eueryevery mā may goe about to set vp godlines, not to oppresse the trueth. Such a Councell King Henrie the eight of worthie memorie in his protestation for the Church of England, for not comming to the Councell of the Pope, truely affirmeth, that he desired, and craued nothing so oft of God: but because there is no hope of any such Councel, seeing the Pope would be the chiefe doer in it, and it is too vnreasonable, that the same man should be both a partie, and a iudge: we doubt not, but that it is lawfull by the word of God, for eueryevery Prince, Duke, Lord, within his owne seignorie, without any further delay, or expectation, by the aduice and Counsaile of the learned and godlie of the land, according to Gods Lawe, to reforme their Church.

First, because all delay in matters of the Church are dangerous, and inconueniences are at the first hand to be met withall, as we see Act. 6. and Act. 15. immediatlie, when any question did arise, the Apostles assembled together. In the Councel of Basile, where it was decreed, that the Pope was subiect to the Councels, Panormitane a stiffe champion on the Popes side, would hauehave the decree stayed till the returne of the Princes Embassadors: But Arelatensis that worthy Cardinall stepped vp, and shewed what danger there might be in a small delay, by the example of Hannibal, who deferring his going but one day to Rome, was driuen cleane out of Italy, hauing been very like to hauehave taken the citie, if he had vsed the opportunitie. But without all controuersie, matters of faith ought not to be delayed: which could not be auoyded, if a generall Councel should alwaies be waited for.

Secondly, a Prince hath the like authoritie in his dominion, as the housholder hath in his house. But eueryevery man ought to reforme his house, without any further delay, aduisement or consultation, as Iosua sayth, I and my house will serue the Lord, 24. vers. 15. Wherefore the Prince may and ought to performe the like in his countrie.

Lastly, we finde by experience, that the Lord hath blessed such reformations, which hauehave been made by Princes in their owne territories: as that in Zuricke anno. 1523. at Berne, 1528. and the most happie reformation of our Church of England ▪ begun by King Henrie the 8. encreased by that most vertuous Prince King Edward the 6. and prosperouslie continued and established by our gracious Soueraigne Queene Elizabeth.

I will adde the testimonie of Augustine: who answering to the Pelagians, which obiected that they were condemned by certaine single Bishops in their owne Diocesse, without a Synode, he sayth thus, Ac si congregatione synodi opus erat, vt aperta pernicies damnaretur, quasi nulla haeresis aliquando, nisi synodi congregatione damnata sit, &c. cont. 2. Epistol. Pelag. lib. 4. cap. 12. As though, saith he, a Synode or Councel were alwayes necessarie to condemne a knowne heresie: Nay, wee finde that more heresies without comparison, hauehave been in the same places condemned, where they first sprang, without any such necessitie, more so, then otherwise.

p. 83THE SECOND QVESTION, BY WHOSE AVthoritie Councels ought to be called.

The Papists.

THey doe generally hold, that generall Councels ought onelyonly to be called and appoynted by the Popes authoritie, or his assignment: their goodly reasons error 30 are these.

1 Councels ought to bee congregate in the name of Christ, that is, by him that hath authoritie from Christ so to congregate them: see here is a goodly exposition, to assemble in the name of Christ, is to assemble by the authoritie of the Pope: so belike where Christ saith, wheresoeuer two or three are gathered together in my name, &c. Christ will not bee present with them, vnlesse we send vp to Rome for license, that two or three may come together.

2 Generall Councels should be appoynted by them, that hauehave generall authoritie to commaund men to come to the Councell: but this authoritie ouer the whole Church neuer any Emperour had, in such ample manner, as the Pope hath: Ergo. Answere: first, it is a great vntruth, that the Popes spirituall iurisdiction which he falsely challengeth, was at any time greater then the Emperours dominion: for Constantine ruled ouer both the West and East Churches: but the Churches of Greece were neuer, nor are not to this day subiect to the sea of Rome. For Pope Eugenius would hauehave dissolued the Councell of Basile vnderunder this pretence, because the Greekes, which should come vntounto the Councell for the vniting of their Church, would not passe the Alpes: but this vniting neuer went forward, Anno. 1431. Agayne, if the commaundement of one Emperour or Potentate bee not large enough to appoynt a generall Councell, as in these dayes it is not, it may bee done by the consent and agreement of Princes.

The Protestants.

WE hold it as a fond and ridiculous assertion, that generall Councels should be ruled at the Popes becke, but that this authoritie is due, and hath been of olde vntounto Christian Princes and Magistrates, and the Pope in so doing doth but vsurpe vponupon their right.

1 That the Pope hath not absolute authoritie, to call, remoue, dissolue, or establish Councels, it is proued out of scripture: for Act. 6.2. the twelue Apostles, and not Peter onelyonly, whose successor the Pope doth falsely chalenge to be, called the multitude together about the election of Deacons.

2 The Councels in times past were sommoned by the Emperours, which our aduersaries themselues cannot denie, as the Nicene first, by Constantine the great: Constantinopolitane. 1. by Theodosius the elder. Ephesin. 1. by Theodosius p. 84the younger: Chalcedonens. by Martianus. But, say our aduersaries, these Councels were not appoynted without the consent of the Bishops of Rome. I meruaile they are not ashamed so to say: for when Theodosius called the Councell of Chalcedon, Leo then Bishop of Rome, neither liked the time, for hee would hauehave had it deferred, nor the place, being desirous to hauehave it in Italy: yet he was content to obey the Emperours commaundement, and sent his Agents to the Councel, there to appeare for him: Epist. 41.47.48. ad Martianum: This was alleadged by Tonstal and Stokeslie two archpapists in their Epistle to Cardinall Poole.

3 It is a good reason which was alleadged in the Councell of Basile, that if Popes onelyonly should call Councels, there should be no meanes left to withstand a wicked and vicious Pope. Who would thinke (say they) that the Bishop of Rome would congregate a Councel, for his owne correction, or deposition?

4 The Pope hath no more authoritie, nor, by their leaue, nothing like as Peter had: but he challenged not this dignitie amongst the Apostles, to summon Councels. We reade of foure onelyonly Councels of the Apostles, say the fathers of Basile (for this also is their argument) the first was for the choosing of Matthias. Act. 1. congregate at the commaundement of Christ, who inioyned them not to depart from Ierusalem. The second. Act. 6. congregate by the twelue, not Peter onelyonly,4. Councels called by the Apostles. for the election of Deacons. The third, which was holden as touching the taking away of circumcision, and other ceremonies of the lawe, was gathered together by a generall inspiration, Act. 15.6. The fourth, wherein certaine things contained in the lawe are permitted, seemeth to be gathered by Iames. Act. 21.18. VponUpon these reasons the Councel thus concludeth: that if the Pope would resist, and hauehave no Councel congregate, yet if the greater part of the Church doe iudge it necessarie to hauehave a Councel, the Councel may bee congregate, whether the Pope will or not. Ex Aenea Syluio, Fox. pag. 676. Col. 2.

5 Augustine saith: Catholicos Episcopos & partis Donati iussu imperatoris disputando inter se contulisse. Breuicul. collation. lib. 1. cap. 1. That the Catholike Bishops and the Donatists, did meete together to dispute at the commaundement of the Emperour: There were in that Councel, which was at Carthage, of the Catholike Bishops 286. and of the Donatists 279.

THE THIRD QVESTION, OF WHAT PERSONS the Councel ought to consist.

The Papists.

WHereas there are foure sorts of men vsually present at Councels, the Princes error 31 and Magistrates, Bishops and inferiour Ministers and Priests, and other lay people: of all these, Bishops (they say) onelyonly must hauehave a deciding or p. 85determining voyce: Priests and other learned may dispute and hauehave a consultatiue voyce: Princes are there to defend the Councel, and see order kept: other of the Laitie may be there as officers and ministers, as Scribes and Notaries: but the suffrages and voyces must onelyonly be giuen by Bishops. Eckius. loc. de concil. Bellarm. de concil. lib. 1. cap. 15. Let vsus see some of their reasons.

First, to teach and to feede is proper for the Pastors only, and to establish and decree in Councel, is nothing els but to feede and teach: Ergo, Pastors onelyonly must rule in Councel: which none are but Bishops: Soli Episcopi pastores sunt (sayth the Iesuite) neque laici neque ecclesiastici quicunque: OnelyOnly Bishops are pastors, and none other of the Clergie besides, and to them onelyonly, he sayth, that is to bee applyed, Act. 20. Take heede to your selues, and the flocke, ouer the which God hath made you ouerseers.

I answere. First, what an absurd saying is this and voyde of sense, that the Bishop is the onelyonly pastor of his Diocesse, and that eueryevery Minister is not pastor in his owne parish? Nay, if the Iesuite would speake trueth, he shall finde that popish Bishops are neither Pastors nor Doctors, for the most of them neither feede, nor teach: And they be not ashamed to professe it, Ann. 1540. or thereabout, Thomas Forret Martyr, being found fault withall by the Bishop of Dunkelden in Scotland, because he preached so oft, exhorted the Bishop agayne, and wished that he did preach. The Bishop answered: nay, nay, let that bee, we are not ordayned to preach: and in further talke the blind blockish Bishop bewrayed his owne ignorance, I thanke God (sayth he) that I neuer knewe what the olde and newe Testament was. Thereupon rose a common prouerbe in Scotland, you are like the Bishop of Dunkelden, that knewe neither the old nor new lawe. Fox. Martyrol. pag. 1266.

With this blind saying of the popish Bishop, our countrey men of Rhemes also doe agree, which doubt not to say, that many which hauehave no gift to preach, yet for their wisedome and gouernment, are not vnmeete to be Pastors and Bishops. Annot. in 1. Timoth. 5. sect. 13.

2 I answere, the Iesuite bewrayeth his ignorance, in making no difference betweene communis, and propria politia ecclesiae: the common and speciall policie and office of the Church: for there are proper offices and dueties, some of Pastors, some of gouernours, some of other Ministers: but this office to be performed in general Councels, is not proper to Pastors, but common to the whole Church: whereupon wee denye, that it is Proprium pastorum munus, suffragia ferre in concilijs: It is not the proper duetie of Pastors, to giuegive voyces and make decrees in Councels.

3 By the Iesuites argument, the fathers of Basile doe conclude cleane contrarie out of that place, 4. Ephes. That because Christ instituted not onelyonly Apostles and Prophets, but pastors and teachers for the work of the Ministerie, who doubteth (say they) but that the gouernance also of the Church is committed vntounto others together with the Apostles? And hence they inferre, because p. 86the worke of the Ministerie is layd vponupon the rest of the Clergie, that therefore they ought not to be excluded from Councels.

Secondly, Panormitane in the Councel of Basile thus reasoneth for Bishops: that they were the pillars and keyes of heauen, and therefore had onelyonly deciding voyces: VntoUnto him answered at that time the wise and couragious Cardinall Arelatensis, shewing Augustines iudgement vponupon those words (I will giuegive thee the keyes of heauen) that the iudiciall power was giuen not onelyonly to Peter, but also to the other Apostles, & to the whole Church, the Bishops, the Priests. Whereupon he inferreth, that if the Priests hauehave a iudicial power in the Church, they also ought to hauehave a determining voyce in Councels.

Thirdly, Lodouicus the Prothonotarie in the same Councel thus argued: Albeit (sayth hee) Christ chose twelue Apostles and 70. Disciples, notwithstanding in the setting forth of the Creede, onelyonly the Apostles were present, thereby giuing example, that matters of faith did pertaine onelyonly to the Apostles, and so consequently to Bishops. To him Arelatensis made this answere: First, it followed not, because the Apostles onelyonly are named, that they therefore only were present at the setting forth of the Creede: for wee see that Princes beare the name and commendation of many actions, which are done notwithstanding by their helpers. 2. Lodouicus cannot be ignorant (sayth he) that there be some articles in the Creede, which were not put to by the Apostles, but afterward by generall Councels: as that part, wherein mention is made of the holy Ghost, which the Councel of Lions did adde: Thus much out of the Councel of Basile.

The Protestants confession.

OVr opinion grounded vponupon trueth and scripture is this: that, not onelyonly Bishops, but all other pastors admitted to the Councel, and the learned and discreete amongst the Lay men, ought to hauehave concluding voyces in Councel: and that rather the discussing and consulting of matters pertayneth to the learned Diuines, the deciding to all, then contrariwise.

First, that inferiour pastors are to bee ioyned with Bishops and Prelates, it was amplie proued in the Councel of Basile, of the which I hauehave so often made mention, as noble Arelatensis reasoneth thus: The dignities of the fathers is not to be respected but the trueth: neither will I preferre a lye of any Bishop, be he neuer so rich, before a veritie or a trueth of a poore Priest: this is his first reason, that the trueth ought to bee receiued at any mans mouth bee he neuer so simple: and therefore Priests as well as Bishops are to bee admitted to the Councel.

2 He declareth the ancient practise of the Church: In the Councel of Nice, where there were assembled 322. Bishops, Athanasius being then onelyonly a Priest, withstood the Arrians, and infringed their arguments: In the Synode p. 87of Chalcedon, there were present sixe hundred Priests, which name is common both to Bishops and Priests. When Paul Bishoppe of Antioch preached that Christ was a man of common nature: the Councell assembled against him at Antioch, where the sayde Paul was condemned, neither was there any man, which did more confound the sayd Paul, then one Malchion Priest of Antioch, which taught Rhetorick there.

Concerning the second part, that laye men also with Priests ought to bee admitted: first we hauehave testimonie out of the word of God for it. Tit. 3.13. for this cause Zenas the lawyer is ioyned as fellow in commission with Apollos. But we hauehave a more euident place. Act. 15.22. It seemed good to the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church: here we see that not onelyonly the Elders but the whole multitude, were admitted into consultation with the Apostles. To this place our aduersaries doe thus aunswere: Lodouicus the Prothonotarie, first thus rashly and fondly gaue his verdicte in the Councell of Basile, that there was no argument to be gathered of the Acts of the Apostles, whose examples were more to be maruayled at, then to be followed:A blasphemy of a Papist. But to this Arelatensis replied, that he would stay himself most vponupon the Apostles doings: for what, sayth he, is more comely for vsus to followe, then the doctrine and customes of the primitiue Church? And Aeneas Siluius reporteth (who writeth of the actes of that Councell) that all men impugned this saying of Lodouicus, that the Apostles were not to be followed, as a blasphemie.

Wherefore the Iesuite hath found out another aunswere: he sayth that none but the Apostles gaue sentence, the rest onelyonly gaue consent, and inwarde liking and approbation: this cauill Arelatensis met withall long before the Iesuite was borne, in the forenamed Councell. Neither this worde, sayth hee, It seemed good, signifieth in this place consultation, but decision, and determination: And so it doth indeede: for seeing there is one worde applyed to them all, foreign, placuit, it seemed good to the Apostles, Elders and the whole multitude, why should it not be taken in the one and selfe same sence, and after the same manner vnderstood of them all?

2. Seeing the Councel doth represent the whole Church, there ought to be present and to giuegive sentence of all sorts and callings of men: and the tather, because the matter of fayth and religion is a common cause, and as well appertayneth to lay-men as to Bishops, it behooueth them also to bee present: And further it were more reasonable, that princes and temporall Magistrates should binde their subiects to their lawes, without their consent, then that ecclesiastical persons should lay yokes vponupon Christians against their willes, for ciuill matters are more indifferent and left to our choyce, then spirituall are: Yet we see there are no lawes enacted in our Realme but by the high court of Parliament, where alwayes some are appoynted for the commons, euen the whole neather house, without whose consent no acte can passe. So it were very reasonable, that no law should be layd vponupon the Church, without the generall consent thereof.

p. 883. Lastly, Augustines iudgement we heard before alleadged by Arelatensis, that seeing the iudicial power of the keies is committed to the whole Church, to Bishops, to Priests, they all ought to bee entertayned in generall Councels.

THE FOVRTH QVESTION, WHO OVGHT to be the president and chiefe moderator in Councels.

The Papists.

error 32 WIth one whole consent they all agree and holde, that the Pope onelie ought to hauehave the chiefe place in Councels, either himselfe in his owne person, or else his Legates and deputies for him: they reason thus.

1. The Pope is the chiefe pastor of the vniuersall Church, for vntounto Peter onelyonly it was sayd, pasce oues meas, feede my sheepe, and he is called and saluted in Councels by the name of father: and all other both Princes and Bishops are sheepe in respect of him.

Wee answere, first, in the Iesuites argument, there is petitio principij, a foule fault in a good Logician, though it bee none in a Sophister, still to begge that which is in question: for yet he hath not prooued that the Pope is the vniuersall pastor. 2. That place, feede my sheepe, prooueth it not: Augustine saith, redditur negationi trinae trina confessio, ne minus amori lingua seruiat, quàm timori. in Iohan. tract. 123. he recompenceth a threefold deniall, with a threefold confession, lest that his tongue should be lesse seruiceable to louelove, then it was to feare: so then, by this fathers iudgement, it was no priuiledge to Peter to bee thrise admonished, but he is thereby put in mind of his thrise deniall of Christ. Againe, I maruaile the Iesuite can so soone forget himselfe: for in the 15. chapter afore, he prooued by these words (feede my sheepe) that Bishops onelyonly were pastors, and he can now turne the wordes to serue onelyonly for the Pope. 3. What great matter is it for the Pope to be called father, seeing he is not ignorant that all Bishops assembled in Councell and other learned, are called by that name. Nay, it is no rare matter for other Bishops to be saluted by the name of Pope: as Prosper writing to Augustine, twise in one Epistle calleth him, beatissimum Papam, most blessed Pope, Tom. 7.4. Princes and Bishops to the Pope are sheepe, sayth the Iesuite. 1. For Bishops, though he had a iurisdiction ouer all, which will stick in his teeth to prooue, yet shall they be no more his sheep, then Priests are to Bishops, and Bishops to their Metropolitanes, who cannot be sayd to be their sheepe, though they hauehave some preeminence ouer them: for Augustines rule must stand, nemo se nostrum episcopum episcoporum constituit. De baptism. 2.2. No man is a Bishop of Bishops, nor shepheard of shepheards. Secondly, for Princes he hath nothing to doe with any but those in his owne Bishopricke, and as they are his sheep one way, as they are taught of him, so he and his Cardinals are the Magistrates sheepe another way, and in respect of p. 89the ciuil gouernement he is their shepheard: And both he and they, prince and priest are sheep-fellows, vnderunder Iesus Christ the chiefe shepheard: as Augustine sayth, tanquam vobis pastores sumus, sed sub illo pastore vobiscum oues sumus, in Psal. 126. we are shepheards to you, but both you and I are sheep vnderunder that great shepheard.

The Protestants.

WE doe truely affirme, that the Soueraigne Maiestie of the Emperour and chiefe Magistrate, or his legate, if he either be present himselfe, or sende, ought to be president of the Councel: Or else in their absence, one to be chosen and elected by the Councel for that function, as Cardinal Arelatensis was chosen in the Councell of Basile by the fathers to be moderator.

First, that it belongeth to the Prince, to hauehave this prerogatiue, it is hence prooued, because he is the chiefe iudge in all matters and causes, both ciuil and eccesiasticall: And it appeareth by the auncient practise of the godly kings in Israel and Iuda. Dauid gathered a Councel together, when hee brought the Arke to Ierusalem. 1. Chronicl. 15.3. where he was the chiefe doer, and director; for he appoynted the Leuites their courses, and set forth a certayne fourme of thanksgiuing to be vsed. 1. Chronicl. 16.4.7. Hezekiah assembled a Councel. 2. Chronicl. 30.2. where it was decreed, that the passeouer should be solemnly kept: & the postes were sent forth with the kings writ or commission. In Iosiah his raigne there was a great assembly at Ierusalem, of the Princes, the people, priests and Leuites, and al from the greatest to the smallest: where the king him selfe was president and chiefe agent, reading the law before the people. 2. Chronicl. 34.30.31.

Secondly, we finde that the Emperours themselues hauehave beene present at Councels: As in the Nicene, Constantine the great was present: in the Councel of Chalcedon, Martianus: in the Constantinopolitane 3. Constantinus the Emperour: in the Constantinopl. 4. Basilius the Emperour was present. Is it to bee thought that these noble Emperours, were at the Councels as inferiors or vnderlings? or had they not the chiefe places? then sure they were presidents: for in the Councell the chiefe place belongeth to the president. They might appoynt a speaker or prolocutor for them, as in the parliament house, though the prince be present, yet the Lord Chauncellour speaketh: but the chiefe power and Soueraigntie in the Councell, was in the Emperours.

Thirdly, not to heape vp many reasons in so playne a cause: I will alleadge one example most manifest out of Augustine: who writeth that in that great Councel at Carthage where the matter was discussed between the Catholicks & the Donatists, there being present more then 500. Bishops of both sides, Marcellinus was appointed to be moderator of that disputatiō: who diuers times putteth in his sentence in the disputation, and last of all, bidding both parts to go aside, he writeth the sentence definitiue, and concludeth against the Donatists, approuing the actes of the Catholike Bishops. haec August. breuicul. collation.

p. 90THE FIFTE QVESTION WHETHER Councels may erre or not.

The Papists.

error 33 THey are not all agreed, what to determine of this matter; some affirme that Generall Councels can in no wise erre, although the consent of the Pope bee wanting: thus the fathers in Basile concluded, who is it, say they, that will preferre a sinfull man before an vndefiled Church? But Bellarmine more the Popes friend then so, holdeth, that euen generall Councels may erre, vnlesse they follow the instructions and directions of the Pope: Yea that it is not sufficient for the pope to call a Councel, and sende his Legate thither, but hee must write continually for aduertisement from his maister before any thing be concluded: and therefore they doubt not to say, that the Councell of Basile erred, though it had the consent of the Popes Legate, in defining, that the Councell is aboue the Pope, because he had no such direction from the Pope, Bellarmine de concil. lib. 2. cap. 11.

Nay the Iesuite goeth further, that particular Councels being approoued by the Pope cannot erre. cap. 5. So they holde that the holy fathers of the cruell Inquisition cannot erre: Yea Panormitane was not ashamed to say openly in the Councell of Basile, that he would prefer the iudgement of the Cardinals of Rome before all the world. This then is the Iesuites opinion, that no Councels by the pope confirmed can erre: & that a particular Councel hauing his allowance, is to be preferred before a generall without. Let vsus see some of their reasons.

1. They abuse certaine places of scripture for their purpose: as that Act. 15. It seemed good to vsus, and the holy Ghost: I am with you to the end of the world: He that heareth you, heareth me. Bellarmine cap. 2. Rhemist. in Act. 15.8.10. so then thus they argue, Councels are neuer without the spirite of God, therefore can they not erre. A silly argument, as though the spirite of God were at their commaundement, or were tyed to places or persons: They must first performe the condition, before they can chalenge the promise: that is, to followe the rule of Gods word, and obediently to submit themselues thereunto, then will God vouchsafe to be present: The Gospell sayth, that wheresoeuer two or three are gathered together in my name, I will be present euen in the midst of them: Here promise is made not to thousands or hundreds, but to two or three: and therefore by this place an assemblie of few persons may as well be exempted from error, as Councels: but there is a condition, In nomine meo, in my name, and then followeth, in medio illorum, in the midst of them: if then they are not met in the Lords name, they cannot looke for the presence of Christ. I pray you where was the holy Ghost present in that Councel at Rome vnderunder Iohn. 23. when there appeared a great Oule, which stared and out faced the pope, who p. 91blushing at the matter, and fuming, rose vp and departed? At the sight of which Owle they whispered one in anothers eare, that the spirit appeared in the likenes of an Owle: and after that, in an other session the same Owle appeared, and could not be driuen away, vntill by throwing bats and cudgels at her, shee fell downe dead before them. ex Nichol. Clemang. In the beginning of the Councel of Constāce after the accustomed hymne song, veni sancte spiritus, a bil was set vp with these wordes, alijs rebus occupati nunc adesse non possumus, Wee are now otherwise occupied, we cannot be present with you. We see now how sure the Papists are of the holy Ghost in their popish Councels.

The Protestants.

WE doubt not to say, that Councels hauehave erred, and may erre, presuming any thing besides the warrant of Gods worde, and that neither vniuersall or particular Councels are priuiledged, much lesse any one man, no nor the Pope, not to erre in matters of fayth, otherwise, then following the trueth of the Scriptures, for in so doing, they are sure, not to be deceiued.

1. We hauehave also examples in the scripture of Councels that erred, as that assemblie in Achabs dayes of 400. Prophets, who were al deceiued: the Iesuite thus answereth, that it was an assemblie of prophets, not of priests: as though priestes were more piuiledged from error, than Prophets. And these, say they, were false Prophets, not Prophets of the Lord: We graunt so, and this withal, that wheresoeuer the Lords Prophets, and pastors, and ministers assemble, that there they will heare the Lords voyce: which the Pope in his Councels doth not. But he still supposeth, that the Pope and his ministers are Christs Disciples: which is an vnreasonable supposition, seeing we hold him to be Antichrist, and that the Iesuite knoweth.

Such a Councell was that of the Iewes, Iohn 9. where all they were excommunicate that confessed Christ, & Mark. 14▪ Christ himselfe was by the Councel condemned: It cannot be denied, that this Councell erred. Let vsus heare the papists goodly answeres: some say, that the Councel erred in a matter of fact, de facto, non de iure, not in a case of right, as whether Christ should be put to death: as though in condemning him, they denied not that he was the Messiah: other, that they erred in their owne opinion, not in the sentence giuen, for Christ indeede was guilty of death, say they, because he did beare our sinnes: the Iesuite findeth not much fault with this answere, & yet it is an open blasphemie, as is that also of the papists, that the Iewes had sinned mortally, if they had not put Christ to death. Some of them say, the Councel erred not in that which was done, but in the maner of iudgement, because it was tumultuous & disorderly,Popish blasphemies. & done by suborning of false witnesses: and this sayth the Iesuite, is probabilis responsio, a probable answere sayth hee, being most impious and blasphemous. But he dare not rest in this answere, but findeth out a fourth of his owne, that the chiefe priestes and Councels of the Iewes could not erre before the comming p. 92of Christ, but after he was come, they might. A blinde popish answere▪ for doth not Christ eueryevery where impugne the traditions and decrees of the Elders, as Mark. 7. which our Sauiour should not hauehave done belike, seeing the Elders before his comming could not erre: or will they say, that those traditions were right and good before, and afterward erronious? I know not els, what they should say.

3. We see by experience that many councels hauehave erred: we let pas those which the Iesuite himself cōfesseth to hauehave erred, as the third Coūcel of Antioch, where Athanasius was condemned, and the Arrian heresie approoued: the Councel of Arimine, where the same heresie was furthered: the fourth Ephesine approuing Eutiches heresie: These Councels, though they were generall, the papists confesse to hauehave erred, and they hauehave a trick to shift it off, but a silly one God knoweth. They were not approoued by the Pope, saye they: As though all verity & knowledge in the whole earth were locked vp in the Popes breast.

But wee will bring an instance of such Councels as the Pope allowed, and yet by the papists owne confession erred. In the Councell of Naeo-Caesarea, confirmed by Leo 4. in the 7. canon: second marriage is forbidden. In the Councel Toletan. 1. the 17. canon: it is thus written, that one may be admitted to the communion, though he hauehave a concubine, modò non sit vxoratus, so hee be not wiued: the Iesuites poore shift is this, that a concubine is here vnderstoode for a wife without a dowrie, and further sayth, that Agar was Abrahams wife, and not his concubine, agaynst the scripture: for Abraham should hauehave done euill in sending of her away as he did, if she were his wife, and the scripture calleth Sara by the name onelyonly of Abrahams wife, the other by the name of a bond woman, Gen. 21.8.12.

In the sixt Synod confirmed by Adrian the 1. canon. 72. the mariages betweene Catholikes and hereticks are adiudged to be voyde. In the second Councel of Nice, act. 5. it was concluded, that Angels and mens souls are bodily and circumscriptible.

In the Councel of Rome vnderunder Pope Stephan the 7. all the acts of Formosus his predecessor were reuoked: And in the Councel of Rauenna vnderunder Iohn. 9. Pope, Formosus actes were established, and Stephans decrees abrogate.

Lastly, in the Councel of Constance, they are excommunicate, that receiue the sacrament in both kinds: the Councel of Basile on the contrary side permitteth and giueth leaue to the Bohemians to vse both kindes. One of these Councels, must needs erre, & both of them were confirmed by the Popes: the Councel of Constance by Martin the 5. the Councel of Basile by Foelix 5. By this induction of many particulars we inferre and conclude, that Councels euen approued by the Pope, may and hauehave erred,

4. Lastly, Augustines opinion is this, that prouincial Councels ought to giuegive place to general: Et ipsa plenaria priora posteriorib. emendari, and the former general Councels must be amended by the latter. The Rhemists hauehave found out this shift, that in matters indifferent, which are to be chāged, according to time p. 93and place, Councels may be altered, Act. 15. sect. 8. But to that it is aunswered, that the word emendare, signifieth not onelyonly a change, but a correcting of that which is amisse. And that clause of Augustines must bee put in, why Councels must be amended: si a veritate deuiatum fit, if they swarue from the truth, de baptism. lib 2. cap. 3. Wherfore we conclude, that Councels may erre.

THE SIXT QVESTION CONCERNING THE AVthority of general Councels, whether they may absolutely determine without scripture, and necessarily binde all men to the obedience of their Canons.

The Papists.

IN words they would seem to magnifie the scripture aboue Councels: for error 34 they say, that the authority of the scripture depēdeth not in himself, of Church, Pope, or Councels: but in respect of vsus, the word of God is the word of God, say they, though there be no determination of the Church, but we doe not know it so to be, but because the Church hath so defined: Bellarmine lib. 2. de con. cap. 12. Here is a goodly glosse, but nothing to the purpose: for in that they say the Church hath absolute authoritie to declare and pronounce which is the word, (which indeed it hath not without testimonie and warrant of the word it selfe) by this meanes it commeth about, that much is taken for the worde of GOD which is not: and so the Church doth not onelyonly declare the worde, but maketh that the word which is not.

First, beside the Apocrypha, which they make part of the word, as we hauehave shewed afore, they hold that their traditions are also the word of God. Bellarmine cap. 12. Secondly Gratian is so bolde to affirme that the decretall Epistles of the Popes are to be counted amongst the Canonical scriptures, dist. 19. can. in canonicis, & that the Canons of Councels are of the same authority, dist. 20. can. decretales. And Greg. 1. epist. 24. saith, he doth reuerēce the 4. general Councels, as the foure Euangelists. Thirdly, they shamefully affirme, that whatsoeuer the pastors and priests do teach in the vnity of the Church, is the word of God, Rhemens. 1. Thes. 2. v. 12.

First then they conclude, that Councels are not bound to determine according to the scriptures, but as iudges may determine of their own authority. Secondly, that al men are bound of necessity to receiue the decrees of Councels, without any further triall or examination. They reason thus; out of the scripture.

1. Deut. 17.12. He that harkeneth not vntounto the priest, that man shal die. But mark I pray you, what goeth before, v. 11. according to the law which they shal teach thee, & according to the iudgement which they shall tell thee, shalt thou do: see then, here is no absolute iudicial power giuen to the priest but according to the law of God.

2. The example of the Apostles Act. 15. is as fōdly alleadged, where it was decreed (saith the Iesuite) that y^e Gētiles shuld not be burthened with ceremonies, which saith hee, was not determined by the scriptures but by the absolute suffrages p. 94of the Apostles. Again, their decrees were absolutely imposed vponupon the Churches, without any further examination of the Disciples. Ergo, we are now also absolutely bound to obey all decrees of Councels, Bellar. de concil. 1.18.

We answere: first, it is false, that this matter was determined without scripture: for Iames alleadgeth scripture: & Peter thus reasoneth, we beleeue through the grace of God to be saued as wel as they v. 11. therfore what need this yoke of ceremonies? 2. Though there had been no scripture, who seeth not that the spirit of God so ruled the Apostles, that their writings and holy actions should serue for scripture vntounto the ages following? Thirdly, the Disciples needed not to examine their decrees, knowing that they were gouerned by the spirit, as they themselues write: It seemed good to vsus and the holy Ghost: yet we see the brethren of Bereae searched the scripture for the trueth of those things which the Apostles preached, Act. 17.11. When they can proue such a plenarie power & fulnes of the spirit in their pastors and Councels, as was in the Apostles, we wil also beleeue them.

The Protestantes.

WE doe firmly beleeue that neither the Church nor Councels hauehave any such absolute power to determine without the holy scriptures, either beside or agaynst them, or to binde other men to obey such decrees: Neither that the true Church of God dare or will arrogate such power vntounto it self: But that Councels are ordayned for the discussing & deciding of doubtful matters, according to the scriptures, and word written.

1. If the Apostles preachings might bee examined according to scripture, much more the acts of all other Bishops and pastors. But that was lawful in the Disciples of Berea, Act. 17.11. which are commended for it: therefore called noble, couragious Christians, because of this their promptnes, & diligence in searching out of the truth. Ergo.

2. All things necessarie to saluation to be beleeued, are articles of our fayth: but al such articles must be grounded vponupon the word of God, therfore nothing can be imposed as necessary to saluation without the word of God. Wherefore it is a blasphemous saying of the papists, that the Church may make new articles of fayth, Rhemens. annot. in 1. Tim. 3. sect. 9. and Eckius maintained the same poynt agaynst Luther, in the disputation at Lipsia, and brought forth a new article of faith, agreed of in the Councel of Constance, that it is de necessitate salutis, of the necessitie of saluation,Martyrol. Fox. p. 848. to beleeue that the Pope is the head of the Church. The fathers of Basile more modest then so, concluding that it was an article of fayth to beleeue that Councels were aboue the Pope, doe vse this reason: those things, say they, which we alleadge for the superioritie of general Councels are gathered out of the sayings of our Sauiour Christ.Martyrol. Fox. p. 677. Ergo, we are al bound to obey them. Therefore we conclude, that the word of God only written is the rule of fayth, and al things necessary to be beleeued, Rom. 10.10. Fayth commeth by hearing, and hearing by the word. Councels are to explane and declare articles of faith, not to establish new.

p. 953 Lastly we will heare Augustine speake, Nec tu debes Ariminense, neque ego Nicaenū tanquā praeiudicaturus proferre concilium, scripturarum authoritatibus, &c. Neither must I alleadge the Nicen Councel, nor you the Arimine, I am neither bound to the one, nor you to the other, let the matter be tried by Scripture, cont. Maximu. Arrianum lib. 3. cap. 14. By this fathers sentence therefore, no man is bound of necessitie to be tyed to Councels, but the Scripture onelyonly is absolutely to be beleeued.

THE SEAVENTH QVESTION, WHETHER Councels be aboue the Pope or not.

The Papists.

THis is a matter yet not fully determined amongst the Papists. Neither are error 35 they all of one opinion: In the Councell of Constance and Basile, it was fully concluded: that the Councell is aboue the Pope: Gerson of Paris, that was also present in the Councell of Constance, and a great dooer against Iohn Hus, stifly maintaineth the authoritie of Councels aboue the Pope. Other Papists more fauorable to their new God amight, say, that the Pope is by right aboue the Councell, but he may (if he wil) submit himselfe to the Councell. But now commeth in the stoute Iesuite, and saith with the rest of the schoolemen, that the Pope hath such a soueraigntie aboue the Councell, that he cannot be subiect to their sentence, though hee would. Bellar. de concil. lib. 2.14. Yet hee is in a mammering with himselfe, for saith he, in periculo schismatis, when there is a schisme, and it is not knowne who is the true Pope, in such a case the Councell is aboue the Pope: Let vsus examine some of his best reasons.

1 Now commeth in a great blasphemie. All the names, saith the Iesuite, that are giuen to Christ in the Scriptures, as head of the Church, are ascribed to the Pope, as he is called fidelis dispensator. Luc. 12. a faithfull steward in the Lords house, pastor gregis, Iohn 10. the shepheard of the flocke, Caput corporis ecclesiae. Ephes. 4. the head of his bodie the Church, vir seu sponsus, Ephes. 5. the husband or spouse of the Church: all these titles, saith he, are due to the Pope, Ergo, he is aboue the Church, and so consequently aboue generall Councels. Bellar. de concil. lib. 2.17.

O Lord what great blasphemie is here, to appropriate the titles of Christ, to a mortall man: But goe to Bellarmine, and the rest of that packe, fil vp the measure of iniquitie of your forefathers: say with Pope Athanasius, that the people of the world are the partes of his bodie: with Cornelius the Bishop in the Councell of Trent, the Pope being the light came into the world, and men loued darkenes rather then light: with Pope Calixtus in the Councell of Rhemes, who, when hee saw the Councell would not consent to excommunicate the Emperour, impiously cried out, that they had forsaken him, as Christ was left of his Disciples: with Innocentius the third, that all things in Heauen and earth, and p. 96vnderunder the earth doe bowe the knee vntounto him: with Otho no Pope, but a Cardinall, that sitting amongst his Bishops, blasphemously applied to himselfe the vision of Ezechiel cap. 1. resembling the Bishops to the sower faced beasts, himselfe vntounto God that approched to the Prophet in the midst. Euen thus with the like spirite of blasphemie, doo the Iesuites crie out, that the Pope is the chiefe shepheard, steward, husband, and head of the Church vponupon earth.

But we will leaue to charge them so deepely with blasphemie, which notwithstanding they cannot auoyde: Let vsus heare, what the fathers of Basile say to this poynt. Bellarmine saith, the Pope is the husband: but they reason cleane contrarie: the Church (say they) is the spouse of Christ: the Pope, make the best of him you can, is but a Vicar: but no man dooth so ordaine a Vicar, that hee maketh his spouse subiect vntounto him, but that the spouse is alwaies thought to be of more authoritie then the Vicar, forsomuch as she is one body with her husband, but the Vicar is not so: thus hauehave they to the full answered the Iesuite, ex Aenea Syluio. Better arguments they hauehave none for the Popes prerogatiue, then we hauehave seene.

The Protestants.

THat the Pope is by right, and ought to be subiect to generall Councels, and that they hauehave authoritie to iudge, examine, suspend, punish, & depose him, if there be iust cause, it is proued thus. This matter was pithilie disputed vponupon by the Fathers of Basile, some of whose reasons, it shall bee sufficient heere to followe.

1 They proue this conclusion out of Scripture. First, whereas Panormitane had saide, that the Pope was Lorde of the Church, vntounto him Segouius answered, that it was the most honourable title of the Bishop of Rome, to be called the seruant of the seruants of God: and Peter, saith hee, forbiddeth pastors to behaue themselues as Lords ouer the Clergie, 1. Pet. 5. And if Christ the sonne of God, came not to be ministred vntounto, but to minister and serue, how then can his Vicar hauehave any dominion? So was Panormitane answered.

Againe, the Diuines thus argued: Christ saith to Peter, dic Ecclesiae, Peter is sent to the Church or Councell: Ergo the veritie doth remit the Bishop of Rome to the Councell. But to this the Iesuite saith, that Peter was not yet entred into his office to bee chiefe Bishop, but was as a priuate person. So then belike, this rule of our Sauiour Christ, dic Ecclesiae, tell it to the Church, did but binde Peter, till Christ were ascended, and he receiued his Vicar-dome.

This cauillous answere the Fathers of Basile wisely foresaw, and preuented it, for they shew how Peter was subiect to Councels euen after the ascension, as Act. 11. Peter is rebuked (say they) by the congregation, because he went to Cornelius an heathen man, as if it had not been lawfull for him to attempt any great matter without the knowledge of the congregation: but that seemeth to make more for the purpose, Galath. 2. where Paule rebuked Peter to his face, because p. 97contrarie to the decree of the Councell of the Apostles, hee did cogere gentes Iudaizare, hee would constraine the Gentiles to doe like the Iewes. Ergo, Peter was subiect vntounto the Councell, ex Aenea Syluio.

Other reasons many were alleaged by the Fathers of Basile. First the Bishop of Burgen: As in eueryevery well ordered Kingdome, the whole realme should be of more authoritie then the King, so the Church ought to be of more authoritie then the Pope, though he were Prince thereof.

The Diuines brought these argumēts: the Church is the mother of the faithfull, and so of the Pope, if he be a faithfull man: the Pope is then the Churches sonne, as both Anacletus and Calixtus Bishops of Rome confessed. Ergo how much the sonne is inferiour to his mother, so much is the Church superiour to the Pope. Secondly, the Pope is inferiour to Angels, he is not greater then Iohn Baptist, of whom it is said, that the least in the Kingdome of God is greater then he: but the Angels doe reuerentlie accord vntounto the doctrine of the Church. Ephes. 3.10. Ergo the Pope is bound to doo the same, who is lesse then the Angels. These Fathers thought none so absurd to denie the Pope to be inferiour to Angels, and therefore labour not to proue it. Yet Antoninus an olde Papist saith, Non minor honor datur Papae, quàm Angelis, there is no lesse honour due to the Pope then to the Angels. Nay another saith (I thinke it be Pope Paschalis) Datur Episcopis, quod ne Angelis, vt Christi corpus crearent: it is graunted to Bishops, which is not giuen to the Angels, to create the bodie of Christ. But the Fathers of Basile thought not these men worthie the answere, no more doe we, and so let thē passe. Thirdly, the Pope (say they) being the Vicar of the Church, for he is more truely so called, then the Vicar of Christ▪ he may be deposed of the Church: for a Lord may put out his Vicar at his pleasure. Ergo the Pope is vnderunder Councels.

4 If the Councels might not ouerrule the Pope, there were no remedie left to resist a wicked Pope: Shall we suffer all things, say they, to run into ruine and decay with him? for it is not like, that hee would congregate a Councell against himselfe. To this the Iesuite answereth, that there is no remedie left, but to pray to God in such a case; who will either confound or conuert such a Pope. Here is goodly diuinitie: we know that Antichrist shall at length be destroyed at the comming of Christ: but if he should be let alone in the meane while, and not be bridled, he might doe much hurt, as he hath done too much alreadie. Yet the Iesuite confesseth, that a wicked Pope may bee resisted by force and armes: and why not, I pray you, as well by peaceable meanes? these sayings are contrarie. Bellarm. cap. 19.

So then this is Popish diuinitie, that be the Pope neuer so wicked, doe he neuer so much harme, hee is not to bee controuled of any mortall man. Such doultish schoole poynts maintained especially by begging friers, the fathers of Basile complained of: As that they should say, that no man ought to iudge the high and principall seate, that it cannot be iudged, either by Emperour, Clergie, King or people. Other affirme, that the Lord hath reserued to himselfe the depositions p. 98of the chiefe Bishop: Others, yet more mad, are not ashamed to affirme, that the Bishop of Rome, though hee carrie soules in neuer so great number to hell, yet is he not subiect to any correction, or rebuke. For all these straunge and blasphemous positions, the fathers concluded, as yee hauehave heard, that the Pope ought to obey generall Councels.

4 Lastly, I will adioyne the iudgement of Augustine, who writing in his 162. Epistle concerning the Donatists, whose cause was heard and determined by the Emperours appoyntment at Rome before Miltiades then Bishop there, and other Bishops assistants: and yet for all this the Donatists would not bee quiet: Thus he saith, Putemus, illos iudices, qui Romae iudicauerunt, non bonos iudices fuisse: Restabat adhuc plenarium Concilium, &c. Put case (saith hee) that the Bishop of Rome and the rest, iudged corruptly: there remayned yet another remedie: A generall Councell might hauehave beene called, where the iudges and the cause might further hauehave been tried, and examined, & their iudgement, if there were cause, reuersed. Whereby it appeareth, say the fathers of Basile, that not onelyonly the sentence of the Pope alone, but also the Pope with his Bishops ioyned with him, might be made frustrate by a Councell. Here the Iesuite paltreth & saith, that a matter determined by the Pope in a particular Councell may be called againe in question by the Pope in a general Councel. First what neede that, seeing that a particular Councel hauing the Popes authoritie, as the Iesuite confesseth, cannot erre? Againe, Augustine saith, vbi cum ipsis iudicibus causa possit agitari: In the which generall Councell the cause and the former iudges, of the which Miltiades was one, may bee tryed and examined, so that the Pope himselfe might be adiudged by the Councell, and not the cause onelyonly. VponUpon the Premisses we truely and iustly conclude, that the Pope is and of right ought to be subiect to generall Councels.

THE EIGHT QVESTION, OF THE CONditions and qualitie of generall Councels.

The Papists.

THeir vnreasonable and vnequall conditions, are these and such like, as followe.

1 That the Pope onelyonly should hauehave authoritie to summon, call, proroge, dissolue and confirme Councels, and he onelyonly to bee the iudge, president and moderator in Councels, or some at his appoyntment.

2 They will hauehave none to giuegive voyces but Bishops, and such as are bound by oath of alleageance to the Pope.

3 That the Councell is not bound to determine according to Scripture, but to follow their traditions, and former decrees of Councels.

4 That no Councell is in force without the Popes assent, yea the Pope himselfe p. 99(say they) by his sole authotitie may abrogate and disanull the canons and decrees of Councels.

These and such other conditions the Papists require in their Councels: So they wilbe sure, that nothing shall be concluded against them.

The Protestants.

OVr conditions, which we would hauehave obserued and kept, in generall Councells, are these, most iust and reasonable:

1 That the Pope, which is a party, should be no iudge: for it is vnreasonable, that the same man should be both a partie and a iudge: and therefore he ought not to meddle with calling and appoynting Councels, with ruling, or moderating them, seeing it is like, he would worke for his owne aduantage.

2 That such a time and place be appointed, as when and where the Churches of Christendome may most safely and conueniently meete together: not at such a time, as Paulus the third, called a Councell, when all Princes in Christendome were occupied in great affaires: nor such a place, as he thē appointed at Mantua in Italie, whither Princes could not come without perill of iourney and danger of life, being penned in by the Popes garrisons. Thus Pope, or Bishop Leo, (for then there were no Popes) writ to Martianus the Emperour, to hauehave the Councell remoued from Calchis to Italie, but hee preuayled not. So Pope Eugenius would hauehave dissolued the Councell at Basile, and brought it vnderunder his owne nose.

3 We would hauehave it a free Councell, where eueryevery man might fully vtter his minde, and that there should be a safe conduct graunted to al to come and goe: which the Pope for all his faire promises is vnwilling to doe, as it was flatly denyed to Hierome of Prage in the Councell of Constance: to whome it was answered, that he should hauehave safe conduct to come, but none to goe. Neither if they should giuegive a safe conduct, were they to bee trusted, for it cannot bee forgotten, to their perpetuall infamie, that they brake the Emperour Sigismunds safe conduct graunted to Iohn Husse in the Councell of Constance, saying, that faith was not to be kept with Hereticks.

4 That the matter should not bee left wholie to Bishops and Prelates, but that the learned of the Clergie and Laitie besides, should giuegive voices, seeing the cause of religion is common, and concerneth all. But most of all, that nothing bee carried with violence or popularitie, against the Scriptures, but eueryevery matter determined according to the truth thereof.

Such a Councell wee refuse not, nay wee much desire, which is the true generall Councell: that is not generall, where all men cannot speake; no freedome nor libertie graunted for men to vtter the trueth, where all thinges are partially handled, and are swayed by one mans authoritie. Wherefore the Rhemists slander vsus in saying wee raile vppon general Councels. annot. in Act. 15.10. and that we refuse them. 2. Galath. 2. Whether wee or they are enemies to true, generall, free, holy, indifferent Councels let all men iudge.