A General View of Papistry, Book 1 · Controversy 2

A General View of Papistry · Book 1 · Controversy 2

p. 42THE SECOND GENERALL CONTROVERSIE, CONCERNING THE CHVRCH.

HAuing now finished the questions betweene our aduersaries and vsus, concerning the Scriptures, and word of God, which all do belong to the Propheticall office of Christ: in the next place such controuersies are to be handled as do concerne the Kingly office of Christ. And seeing the Church of Christ is his kingdome, where he ruleth and raigneth, we must intreat of the Church: and first in generall of the whole, and in speciall of the partes and members. This present controuersie concerning the Church in generall standeth vponupon fiue principall questions.

1 Of the definition of the Catholike Church: two partes of the question. First, whether wicked men and infidels, be true members of the Church. Secondly, whether the Catholike Church be inuisible.

2 Whether the Catholike Church may erre, and whether the visible Church may fayle vponupon earth.

3 Concerning the true notes and markes of the Church.

4 Of the authoritie of the Church: two partes. First, whether the Church hauehave authoritie in matters of faith beside the Scriptures, and whether we ought to beleeue in the Church. Secondly, concerning the ceremonies of the Church.

5 Whether the Church of Rome be the true Church: two partes. First, whether it be the Catholike Church. Secondly, whether the Church of Rome be a true visible Church: of these now in their place and order.

THE FIRST QVESTION, OF THE definition of the Catholike Church.

The Papistes.

THe Catholike Church (say they) is a visible companie of men professing the same faith and Religion, and acknowledging the Bishop of Rome to be their chief pastor, and the Vicare of Christ vponupon earth. Bellarmin. de Eccles. Lib. 3. cap. 2. Canisius capit. de praecept. Eccles. articul. 9. Lindanus. lib. 4. cap. 84.

The Protestantes.

THe Catholike and vniuersall Church is the inuisible cōpanie of the faithfull elected and chosen to eternall life. Iohn. 10.16. A particular Church is a member of the vniuersall and Catholike Church, and it is a visible companie and congregation of men, amongest whom the pure word of God is preached, and the Sacramentes rightly administred: in the which visible congregation, p. 43there may be and are many hypocrites, euill and vnfaithfull men found, and shalbe to the end of the world. Ex Amand. Polano. So then betweene the vniuersall and particular Church, there is a treble difference. First, the one is dispersed ouer all the world, the other in some one country, citie or any certaine place. Secondly, the vniuersall consisteth onelyonly of the elect, the particular both of good and bad. Thirdly, the Catholike is inuisible, the other is visible and to be seene.

The question betweene vsus and our aduersaries, is about the vniuersall Catholike Church, which they do falsly define in three points. First, they hold that wicked men are true members of the Catholike Church. Secondly, they allow not this distinctiō of the Church visible and inuisible, but do affirme that the Catholike Church is visible. Thirdly, they make the Catholike Church to be in subiection to the Bishop of Rome. Concerning this last point, it belongeth to the controuersie of the Bishop of Rome, and therefore we will not touch it in this place. The other two are now to be handled in this question as two partes thereof.

THE FIRST PART OF THIS FIRST question, whether wicked men and infidels may be true members of the Church.

The Papistes.

THey affirme that not onelyonly the predestinate, but euē reprobates also may belong vntounto the Church, and be true members thereof. Bellarmin. Lib. 3. de error 14 Eccles. cap. 7. Nay they denie that the elect which are vnborne, and not yet called, do appertaine to the Church of Christ. Rhemistes. annot. in. 1. Tim. 3. Sect. 10. This then is generally their opinion, that there is no internal grace or vertue required in the mēbers of the Church, but onelyonly the externall and publike outward profession. Bellarmin. cap. 2. And therefore they doubt not to say that euen wicked men and reprobates remaining in the publike profession of the Church, are true members of the body of Christ. Rhemistes. annot. in Iohan. 15. Sect. 1.

1 They first alledge certaine places of Scripture, as Math. 3. the Church is compared to a barne floore, where there is both chaff and corne. Math. 13. to a net cast into the sea, where all manner of fish are gathered together. 2. Tim. 2. to a house, wherein there be vessels of honor and dishonor, Ergo both good & bad are members of the Church. Bellarmin. cap. 7. lib. 3.

We aunswere. All these places must be vnderstood of the visible Church: which is knowen by the publike preaching of the word, and therefore Math. 3. compared to a fanne, and Math. 13. to a draw net, the Apostles, pastors and teachers are the fisher men. Wherefore we denie not but that wicked men may be in the Church, but not of it: yea they may be members of the visible Church for a time, but can not be truly ingraffed into the body of Christ. p. 44Fulk. annot. Iohan. 15. Sect. 1.

2 The Church (say they) is compared to a body. 1. Cor. 12. as in the body there are some partes, which hauehave neither sense nor life: so in the Church there are some mēbers, which hauehave neither faith nor charitie, which is the life of the Church, Ergo wicked men may be right members of the Church. Bellarm. cap. 10. there may be also some fruitlesse braūches in the vine, and so euill men may be members of Christ. Rhemist. annot. 15. Iohan. 1. eueryevery braunch not bearing fruit in me shalbe cast forth, Ergo there may be fruitlesse braūches in Christ.

We answere to the first, who would hauehave said, as the Iesuite doth, that there are partes in the body, that receiue neither life nor sense of the body: doth he meane the nayles and heares, as he seemeth to geue instance in the end of the Chapter: but they are no partes of the body but excrements: he is so deepe in his sophistrie, that he hath forgotten Philosophie: and yet they receiue some gift from the body, for they grow & encrease, but the wicked receiue no grace at all from the Church. The Rhemistes yet are more reasonable, that say the wicked in the church, are as ill humors and superfluous excrements in the body, rather then liuely partes therof. 1. Iohan. 2. Sect. 10.

To the second, is a dead bow or a braunch, I pray you, any part of the tree? I thinke not: the tree can not conueniently spare any one of the partes therof: but the dead partes are hurtfull and combersome, and it doth the tree good to cut them of. But that they hauehave preuented vsus, we would hauehave vsed no better argument against them, then this drawen from the resemblance of a mans body: for as what is in the body receiuing no life nor power from the body is not properly a part of the body, howsoeuer it seeme to be ioyned to the body: so the wicked although they be in the outward face of the Church, yet because they are not partakers of the spirituall life thereof by Christ, are not truly to be iudged members of it.

3 If wicked men should not be right members of the Church, but the faithfull and predestinate, we should be vncertaine which is the true Church, which is not to be admitted, because the whole doctrine, and all the principles of Religion do depend of the testimonie of the Church. Bellarm. lib. 2. cap. 10.

We aunswere. First, although it is necessarie that the true Church should be certainly knowen, yet not for that cause, which the Iesuite pretendeth: for the Religion of Christians is grounded vponupon the Scriptures, and although the true Church doth geue a notable testimonie thereunto, yet doth not our faith depend vponupon their witnesse, testimonie, or allowance. Secondly, the true visible Church is certainly knowen by the preaching of the word and the right vse of the Sacramēts: so that we doubt not but there is the true Church, where we finde these markes: neither is it needfull to know the estate of eueryevery particular member thereof, for so long, as all actions in the Church are directed and ordered by the rule of Gods word, we neede not to doubt to commit our selues to that Church, howsoeuer otherwise men do stand before God: and yet, so much as is necessarie, the faithfull may be iudged & knowen by their fruites.

p. 45Thirdly, though we admit that wicked men are mēbers: yet the vncertainty remaineth still: for they them selues hold that neither men not Baptised, or persons excommunicate, or heretikes can be of the Church: but many may liue in the Church, whom we know not to be Baptised, which may be ipso facto, by the deed doing excommunicate without publike sentence, and heretikes also: wherefore euen amongest themselues they are vncertaine, who are members of the Church.

The Protestantes.

WE hold that the Catholike Church consisteth onelyonly of the predestinate, and comprehendeth the vniuersall number of all those which shalbe saued, not onelyonly those now liuing on earth,Fulk. annot. 1. Iohan. 2. Sect. 10. Fox. pag. 609. but all that hauehave bene since the beginning of the world: of this Church S. Paule was euen being a persecuter, for he was neuer a member of the deuill nor reprobate, as Iohn Husse saith articul. 2. Of this Church Iudas the traytor neuer was, though he were reputed for a Disciple of Christ for a while Huss. articul. 7. Therefore the wicked and reprobate though they liue in the outward assembly of Christians, are no more the true members of Christ, then the tares in the field may be counted wheat or good corne.

1 The true members of Christ, are also his sheepe, the wicked are not the sheepe of Christ, Ergo neither his members.

The sheepe of Christ heare his voyce: they do not heare his voyce,Iohn. 10. vers. 3.John 10:3 Ergo if they shall aunswere, that hypocrites and wicked men do heare Christes voyce, so long as they continue in the outward profession of Christians, we thus improue it: Christes sheepe do folow him in life and example Iohn. 15.4. but so doe not they. If it shalbe yet aunswered that they may also a while walke in Christes steps: this is not enough, for all Christes shalbe saued. ver. 9. wherfore the Gospell vnderstandeth such folowers, as continue to the end.

2 Christ is the head of his Church, and all the partes thereof, but he is not the head of the wicked & reprobate, Ergo. The Iesuite graunteth that he is the head, euen of those partes that shall perish. Bellarmin. cap. 7. We thus answere, Christ is the head onelyonly of those, for whom he gaue him selfe. Ephe. 5.23.25: but he gaue not him selfe for the wicked, Ergo. If this be denied, we thus proceede, Christ dyed onelyonly for those whom he sanctifieth and cleanseth, to make them a glorious Church without spot and wrincle. Ephe. 5.26.27. But this can not agree any wise to the wicked, Ergo.

3 The Church of God is the whole familie of the children of God in heauen and earth, Ephe. 3.15. they both make but one Church, the wicked are not of this familie: for who would say that the Saintes in heauen, and wicked and reprobate men vponupon the earth, are felow seruaunts, and of one houshold, Ergo they are not of the Catholike Church.

4 Of all other that is a most euident place. 1. Iohn. 2.19. they went out of vsus, but were not of vsus, Ergo heretikes and reprobates are not of the church. p. 46Bellarmine aunswereth: though they were not of vsus, that is, of the Church: animis & voluntate, in soule, and minde, and purpose of hart, yet they were of vsus, externa professione, in externall profession. Thus they are not ashamed, such is there great boldnesse, to contradict the scriptures, for the Apostle saith, non erāt ex nobis, they were not of vsus: they say, yes, forsoth, after a sort, erāt ex nobis, they were of vsus: the Apostle saith nay, they say yea, he saith indeed exierunt ex nobis, they went out of vsus, which soundeth nothing like, as erant ex nobis, they were of vsus, as the Iesuite subtillie would conclude.

De Baptis. lib. 6. cap. 3.5 Let Augustine speake for vsus both, Illa columba, vnica, pudica, casta, sponsa sine macula & ruga non intelligitur, nisi in bonis, iustis, sanctis. That louely doue (saith he) the chast, vndefiled, and vnspotted spouse (that is the Church of God) is onelyonly vnderstood of those that are righteous, faithfull, holy, Ergo the wicked are not of the Church, which is the spouse of Christ.

THE SECOND PART OF THE QVESTION, whether the Catholike Church be inuisible.

The Papistes.

THey do affirme that the Catholike Church is and hath bene alwayes visible: error 15 not so visible, because it might be seene, but that it hath bene alwayes actually visible, & not seene onelyonly vntounto the mēbers of the church, but notoriously knowē to the whole world. Rhemens. annot in Math. cap. 5. Sect. 3. Neither do they meane any particular Church so to hauehave bene visible, but the vniuersall catholike church, which they define to be a visible cōgregatiō of all faithfull men. Canisius. cap. de fide & Symbol. articul. 18. Bellarmin. lib. 3. de Eccles. cap. 12. ration. 7.

1 The foundation of the Church is visible: therefore the Church is visible: the proportion they proue thus: for whether we affirme Christ, or Peter to be the foundatiō of the Church: both of them are now visible in him which is the Vicare of Christ, and Peters successor.

We answere. First, we vtterly denie either Peter to be the foundation of the Church, or els the Pope to be his lawfull successor: for Peter is no more the foundation of the Church, then all the Prophetes and Apostles. Ephe. 2.20. whose doctrine is the foundation, not their persons. And as for the Pope, we care not so much for outward successiō in place, which notwithstanding they can not proue to hauehave bene perpetuall without interruption, as we do require a succession of faith and doctrine. Secondly, we affirme that Christ is the foundation, but not the visible beholding of Christ, with the carnall eyes, but beleeuing in his name, for when Peter had vttered that notable confession of Christ, he said that flesh and bloud had not reuealed it but his father in heauen: but if the beholding of Christ, had geuen Peter a sight of the foundation, thē flesh had reuealed it vntounto him, his carnall eyes had brought him to Christ. Thirdly, we may much better returne this argument vponupon them selues: that p. 47because the foundation of the Church, which is faith in Christ, is inuisible, therefore the Church is inuisible.

2 They heape vp many places of Scriptures, but to small purpose as Math. 18. tell the Church. Actes. 15. when they came to Ierusalem they were receiued of the Church, Philip. 3.6. Paule persecuted the Church: how could the church be persecuted, how could it receiue the Apostles, if it were not visible? Bellarmin. cap. 12.

We answere, what goodly reasons here be: a particular church such as was at Ierusalem may be seene, Ergo the catholike and vniuersall. Secondly, a particular church may be sometime visible, Ergo alwayes. Thirdly, the church is visible vntounto the faithfull, as in time of persecution, for to Paule it was not knowen, when he persecuted it, but onelyonly to the brethren, Ergo it is visible to the world. For these three points they must proue that the catholike church not a particular is visible, that the Church is not sometime but alway visible, yea and to the world, or else they say nothing: for shame masters make better arguments.

3 He hath set his tabernacle in the sunne. Psal. 19. The Church is as a Citie vponupon an hill, Math. 5. Ergo it is alwayes visible. Bellarmin. ibid. Rhemist. Math. 5. Sect. 3.

We answere. First, the Apostles them selues, euen at this time, when Christ spake these wordes vntounto them, were not so in sole, or in monte, in the sunne, or vponupon the hill, that they were seene of the world, nay they were not seene nor acknowledged of the Scribes and Pharisies in Iewrie: the Church is seene of the faithfull, it is visible to them that search for her out of the Scriptures: they that cā see the mountaine, shal see the Citie, the mountaine is Christ, the Citie is the Church. No marueile if the Church be not alwayes visible to the world, for they see not, neither do they know Christ. Secondly, the church is said to be on a hill: because the truth seeketh no corners, heretikes and false t…achers flye into the desert and into secret places, Math. 24. ver. 26. But the truth is not ashamed: the Apostles confessed Christ, euē before Kings and Princes, Marke 13.19. so Augustine expoundeth it. Cont. Faustum. lib. 13. cap. 13.

The Protestantes.

COncerning the catholike church, we hold, that because, it is an article of our faith, it is alwayes vntounto the world inuisible, and not to be espyed but by the eyes of faith. Fulk. Math. 5. Sect. 5.

Concerning particular churches▪ if by visible, they vnderstand that which may be seene, so we graunt they are alwayes visible. Fulk. Act. 11. v. 24. If for that which is actually visible: we say it is not so alwayes visible to the world, nay it may sometimes be so hid and secret, that the members know not one another. Fulk. in Math. 5. Sect. 3.

1 To the Hebrues it is thus written. cap. 13. v. 18.23.24. you are not come to the moūtaine, which might be touched, but to the Citie of the liuing God, the p. 48celestiall Ierusalem, &c. Ergo the church is inuisible, and here opposed to the visible hill of Sinay.

Bellarmine answereth, that this is vnderstood of the triumphant church in heauen, not of the militant vponupon earth.

To this we make answere, the Apostle vnderstandeth the whole vniuersall church in heauen and earth, which both make but one familie, Ephe. 3.15. for here he nameth not onelyonly the spirites of iust men which are in heauen, but the faithfull vponupon earth, whose names are written in heauen: the congregatiō (saith he) of the first borne: the wordes are foreign and foreign, a gathering together, collection or cōgregation, which must needes be vnderstood of men vponupon earth. Againe (saith he) ye are come, not ye shall come: they had now left the smoking mountaine Sinay, and were come to Sion, the church vnderunder the Gospell. Wherefore this is a most firme and inuincible argument: the catholike church is the vniuersall number of Gods chosen in heauen and in earth, Ergo inuisible.

2 We will giuegive an instance: In the dayes of Elias the church was not visible, for he camplaineth, and saith that he was onelyonly left alone, 1. King. 19.10. Ergo the church is not alway visible.

Annot. in Rom. 11. ver. 4.Rom 11:4The Rhemistes answere. First, at that time the church was visible in Iudaea, the souldiers were numbred to 1000. thousand, 2. Chron. 17. We aunswere againe. First, belike they hauehave taken a more exact account of them then the Lord him selfe: for he (saith he) had reserued 7000, 1. King. 19.18. that had not bowed their knees to Baall, they say there were ten hūdred thousand. Againe Elias, if he had knowen such a number, could not hauehave bene left so comfortlesse, as in grief of hart to desire to dye. But be it graunted that the church was visible in Iudaea at this time, though it were not so to Elias: yet where was that visible church in the dayes of Achaz, and Manasseh, when Iudaea fell also to Idolatrie? Thirdly, to beleeue that there is an holy catholike church is an article of our faith, Ergo it is inuisible.

Bellarmin answereth. First, the holinesse of the church is inuisible. We reply, so the church is partly visible, partly inuisible by his confession. First, why thē do ye define the catholike church to be a visible cōgregatiō, if it be not wholly & altogether visible? they know that difinitio must cōuenire definito, the definitiō must agree wholly to that which is defined: but now it is not: for they say, the catholike holy church is partly visible as it is a church, partly inuisible as it is holy. Secondly, do we not say in the Creede, Credo Catholicam, as well as Credo Sanctam, I beleeue a catholike church, as well as I beleeue the holy church? then it is also inuisible, as it is catholike, because this also is part of the article: see I pray you what shifting is here?

Secondly, he answereth, that some thing is seene in the church, some thing beleeued: for we see that visible companie of men, which make the church, but whether that companie be the true church, we do not see it, but beleeue it.

We reply againe. First, the Iesuite hath not yet proued that some thing is p. 49seene in the church, some thing beleeued: but one thing is seene, namely the congregation as they are men, another thing is beleeued, that they are the church: the sight and beliefe now by his owne confession are not both in the church. Secondly, we denie that the vniuersall cōpanie of the catholike church, which is the number of the predestinate can be seene, therefore all is beleeued, and nothing seene. Thirdly, he saith that by faith we know which is the true church: Ergo by faith we know which are the members of the church: Ergo by faith the mēbers do know them selues to be of the Church: therefore faith is requisite in the true members of the church: thē vnfaithfull men can not be true members of the church, which point the Iesuite strongly before maintained against vsus. Mendacem oportet esse memorem, a lyar had need hauehave a good memorie: lest he tell contrarie tales, and so hath the Iesuite here, for before he denied that faith was requisite to make a true member of the church: here he saith that without faith a mēber cā not be knowen, much lesse therfore made.

3 The Rhemistes confesse in these very words, that in the raigne of (their imagined and supposed) Antichrist the externall state of the Romane church, and publike entercourse of the faithfull with the same shall cease, and that there shalbe onelyonly a communion in hart with it, and practise in secret, Annot. in. 2. Thess. 2. Sect. 10. Where then (I pray you) shalbe your tabernaculum in sole, ciuitas in monte, candela splendens in domo: your tabernacle in the sunne, your Citie in a mountaine, your candle shining in the house, that is, say you, in the world. Math. 5. Sect. 3. Ergo out of their owne wordes we conclude, that the church shall not alwayes be visible, and notoriously knowen in the world.

Lastly, we will conclude with Augustine. Aliquando in sola domo Noah Ecclesia erat: in solo Abraham Ecclesia erat: in solo Loth & domo eius Ecclesia erat: in solo Henoch Ecclesia erat: Sometime the church was onelyonly in Henochs house,Enarrat. in Psal. 128.Ps 128 sometime onelyonly in Noah, some time in Abraham alone, in Loth & his house. How then hath the church bene alwayes so visible and notoriously knowē to the world, when it hath layen hidden some time in one house, yea in one man.

THE SECOND QVESTION, whether the Church may erre.

THis questiō is deuided into two parts. First, whether the catholike church may erre at all, or not? Secondly, whether the visible church vponupon earth may fall away from God into Idolatrie and apostasie.

THE FIRST PART, WHETHER THE Catholike Church may erre in doctrine.

The Papistes.

THey do teach that the catholike church can not possiblie erre, not onelyonly in matters absolutely necessarie to saluation, but not in any thing, which error 16 p. 50it imposeth and commaundeth, whether it be conteined in the word of God or not: yea that it can not erre in these things, which beside the word of God are commaunded. And by the church here, they do meane not onelyonly the Pastors and Bishops, but the whole companie of the faithfull: so that neither that which all the pastors of the church do teach, can be erronious, nor what is receiued generally of the whole church. Bellarm. de Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 14. Rhemist. annot an Iohan. 14. ver. 16.

1 The church (say they) is the pillar of truth▪ 1. Tim. 3. Ergo it can not erre. We answere. First, it is no otherwise the pillar of truth, then a virgin without spot and wrincle, Ephe. 5.27. As that place doth not priuiledge the church frō all sinne and imperfection of life, so neither doth this place exempt her from all error in doctrine. Secondly, she is called the pillar of truth in respect of vsus, because the truth is preserued in the true church, and is not els where to be found: not because the truth dependeth vponupon the church: for S. Paule sendeth not Timothie in this place to learne of the church, as though it could not possiblie be deceiued: but (saith he) these things hauehave I written, that thou mayst know how to behaue thy selfe in the house of God. ver. 14.15. Ergo the word of God is the rule of truth, and the church hath no warrant, to be kept from error, but as she is lead and gouerned by the word of God. Thirdly, the argument foloweth not, for Peter was a pillar and yet erred. Gallat. 2.9.11.

2 They heape many arguments together. The church hath the spirite of God, to lead it into all truth, the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it. Math. 16. God hath geuen it Apostles, teachers, Euangelistes to keepe it in the truth. Ephe. 4. Christ hath prayed for the church, that it may be sanctified in the veritie. Iohn. 17. Christ prayed that Peters faith should not faile, Ergo the church can not erre. Rhemens. annot. 1. Timoth. 3.15.

We answere: eueryevery one of the elect hath the spirite of God, neither shall the gates of hell preuaile against the faith of any one of the elect to ouerthrow it: Christ prayeth for eueryevery one of his Disciples that they may be sanctified in the truth. Iohn. 17.20. wherefore it foloweth as well by these arguments, that no one faithfull man can fall into error. The pastors and teachers, so long as they folow the Apostles doctrine, may keepe the church from error, but it is not gathered out of that place. Ephe. 4. that the pastors if they swarue from Gods word can not erre.

Concerning Peter, Christ prayed for him that his faith should not faile in that greeuous tentation, which he fell into. Secondly, he prayed not for him as gouernour of the church, but as he prayeth for eueryevery faithfull man. Iohn. 17.23. Thirdly, for all this prayer Peter erred▪ Gallat. 2.

3 This argument was vsed in the Councell of Basill: the Church is without spot, and wrincle. Ephe. 5.27. Ergo without error.

We aunswere. First, S. Paule speaketh there of a glorious church, such as it shalbe in the kingdome of heauen, not of the church as it is vponupon earth: so Reuel. 7.14. The elders, which sat round about the throne, which are the Saintes p. 51in heauen, were seene in long white robes, which they had washed white in the bloud of the Lambe.

2 It foloweth out of this place that the church is as well without sinne, as free from error: which the diuines in the Councell did also graunt. But seeing by their owne confession eueryevery member of the church, being clothed in this mortall flesh sinneth, how can the church be without sinne? If the church consist of men, and all men are sinners, how is the church free? If all the partes and members be sinnefull, how is not the whole also polluted with sinne? If all the partes of the body be sicke and diseased, how can the whole be sound? The church also is not ashamed to confesse her selfe to be blacke. Cant. 1.5. she shalbe made bewtifull and glorious without all spot & blemish in the kingdome of God: and euen now also is made righteous and iust before God through Christ: not because she hath no sinne, but because it is remitted: and although some errors and imperfections remaine, yet shall they be no hinderaunce to her saluation.

The Protestantes.

WE doubt not to say, that the church of God may erre in some points not necessarie to saluation: but can not fall cleane away from God into any dānable error. Fulk. annot. in Ephe. 5. ver. 29. That the church may erre, as we say, we do shew it thus: and by the Church, we vnderstand the whole companie and congregation, the pastors with the people.

1 When our Sauiour Christ suffred, the church erred in faith, Ergo it may erre: the proposition is thus proued. The church was either in the Scribes and Pharisies, or els in the Apostles: but both of them erred: they in putting Christ to death, the other in their incredulitie, not beleeuing rightlie in the resurrection of Christ.

Bellarmine aunswereth, first that the Pharisies were priuiledged not to erre,Lib. 3. de Eccles. cap. 17.Sir 17 onelyonly till the cōming of Christ. We replie againe. First, after Christ was come they sate in Moses chaire, and Christ biddeth they should be heard. Math. 23.2. if they erred not afore, neither could they now, for they were not displaced out of Moses chaire: but the truth is, they neuer had any such priuiledge not to erre. Secondly, if the Pharisies were now prone to error, then by our aduersaries owne confession, they ceased to be the church, Ergo the church was not now visible, for in them it was not: and the Apostles fled from Christ, and shifted for them selues: how could then the church be visible to the world?

Secondly, the Iesuite aunswereth concerning the Apostles. First, the Apostles were not yet entred into their office and Bishoprike, but onelyonly appointed to it, and therefore they might erre. We replie againe. First they were not onelyonly appointed Apostles, but partly already they had exercised their Apostleship: for they were sent forth to preach the Gospell, and had power and commission to worke miracles, and heale diseases Math. 10▪ how then is not the Iesuite ashamed to say, that they were not yet Pastors nor Apostles? Secondly, if p. 52the Pharisies erred, and the Apostles erred, then all the world was in error, Ergo by their saying at this instant there was no church vponupon the earth, which is a great absurditie, for the church erreth not, they say.

Secondly, (saith the Iesuite) the Apostles erred not in faith: they were reproued for not beleeuing the resurrection: which beliefe because they had not yet receiued, they could not loose it. We reply. First, though they had not erred in any materiall point: yet if there were any error at all in them, it is sufficient for our purpose: that they erred it is manifest, for they fled away from Christ. Secondly, he excuseth them for their infidelitie concerning the resurrection, because this faith they had not yet receiued. But had not Christ (I pray you) often instructed them of this matter: and if this were no such error in them, then Christ was to sharpe in reprouing them for their infidelitie. Thirdly, it appeareth, that they wholly were deceiued concerning the Messiah: Luke. 24.21. the two Disciples say, they trusted that it had bene he that should hauehave deliuered Israell: see then what weake aunswers these are: did these felowes thinke, that their gloses should not be examined? or that their dreames should be taken for oracles?

2 The church of the Iewes erred before our Sauiour Christes comming, Ergo the true church may erre.

The proposition is proued: In the time of the raigne of good kings, they did offer sacrifice vponupon hill altars, but onelyonly to the Lord, which was an error. 2. Kings. 12.3.14.4. The feast of the Passeouer was not kept so precisely according to Gods word at any time before, no not in the raigne of the best kings, as it was in the 18. yeare of Iosias raigne, 2. King. 23.22. The feast of Tabernacles had not bene so solemnly and truly kept from the dayes of Iosua, as it was in Nehemiahs time▪ Nehem. 8.18. Ergo all this while the church of the Iewes erred somewhat in the externall worship of God. Fulk. Ephes. cap. 5. Sect. 4.

Cont. 2. Epist. Pelag. lib. 4. cap. 7.3 Augustine saith, Quomodo erit Ecclesia in isto tempore, perfecta sine macula & ruga, cuius mēbra non mendaciter confitentur se habere peccata. How can the church be perfect in this life, without spot or wrincle, whose members do truly confesse, that they are not without sinne? Ergo the church sinneth and is imperfect, and why not subiect to error? But in the Councell of Basill it was denied, as ye heard, that the church could sinne.

THE SECOND PART, WHETHER THE visible Church may fayle vponupon the earth.

The Papistes.

error 17 THey hold that it is impossible that the visible church should vtterly fayle vponupon the earth, and fall from God, but that there shall alwayes be a visible and knowen church vponupon the earth, hauing a perpetuall succession of Pastors and Doctors, where the true worship of God shalbe preserued and kept. Bellarmin. lib. 3. de Eccles. cap. 13.

p. 531 These and such places of Scripture they stand vponupon, Math. 16. the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it, Math. 28. I wilbe with you to the end of the world. Psal. 88. his throne shalbe as the Sunne, and endure as the Moone, Ergo the visible church shall not fayle vponupon earth. Bellarmin.

We aunswere: that these places must be vnderstood, of the catholike and vniuersall church, whereof we denie not, but eueryevery true particular church is a part. This church is the spouse of Christ, this church shall not perish, this is the kingdome of Christ, with this church will he alway be present to the end of the world: we denie not but that the inuisible church shall continue vponupon the earth so long as the world endureth. Secondly, those places are vnproperly vnderstood of the visible church, for therein are both good and bad: how thē can that be the spouse of Christ, where there are many infidels and wicked ones, which hauehave not espoused themselues vntounto him? how can it be called his kingdome, whereas it is not of all acknowledged? But in the true catholike church all and eueryevery one are espoused to Christ: all and eueryevery one hauehave the kingdome of God within them, as it is Luke. 17. ver. 21.

2 They do abuse that place of S. Paule Ephe. 4.11. he gaue some to be Apostles, some Euangelistes, some pastors and teachers, for the gathering together of the Saints: Ergo the church shall alwayes be visible till all the Saintes are gathered together. Bellarmin. cap. 13. Rhemistes. Ephes. 4. Sect. 5.

We aunswere: this place proueth that the church hath neuer wanted pastors and teachers for the continuance of the truth, neither shall euer be without them, as the Lord said by the Prophet Isay. 59. ver. 21. My spirite, which is vpō thee, & my words which I hauehave put into thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor the mouth of thy seede for euer. We therfore denie not but that in all ages, yea in the most ignoraunt times of Poperie, God raised vp faithfull teachers vntounto his church: although they were not mitred and croziard Bishops, neither could shew any outward pompe or boast of any glorious successiō: Such were Gulielmus de S. Amore, Arnoldus de noua villa. an. 1240. Berengarius, Ioachim Abbas, in the time of Innocentius 3. Wikclef, Bruto, Swinderby, Ex Foxi Protestat.Badby, and others about. anno. 1400. with many, which were not knowen to the world: for the truth neuer in any age wanted witnesses.

By the continuance of the truth and right faith, we gather, that there hauehave bene alwayes faithfull teachers, though not notorious to the world, and shalbe: but who they were, and where they liued, what pompe, what authoritie they were of, it is not materiall to know: wherefore an outward visible succession of Bishops and Pastors is not necessarie for the continuance of the truth: neither can it be concluded out of this place.

3 Thus they reason, there hauehave bene alwayes some faithfull men, which hauehave outwardly professed their faith: for if they dissembled or cloaked their profession, then were they not faithfull: Ergo the church hath bene alwayes visible, as in the time of persecution. Bellarmine.

We aunswere. First, the Iesuite doth cleane peruert and chaunge the state p. 54of the question: for he defineth a visible church, to be multitudo congregata, in qua sint praelati & subditi: a multitude or companie gathered together, where there are both Prelates and Bishops, and people obediēt vntounto them. And now he geueth an instance of persecution, wherein some faithfull Christians may geue an outward profession of their faith: where is now that multitude congregate together? where is that iurisdiction of Prelates? where is that visible and glorious succession? We denie not but that in time of persecution the faithfull may be knowen to them selues: and yet some time they are not: for in Israell there were seuen thousand faithfull beside Elias, yet he knew none of them. But it foloweth not, that therefore the church is then visible to the world, and notoriously knowen to men, for so the Rhemistes say, in Math. 5. Sect. 3. & Act. 11. Sect. 3. Thus they flye manifestly from the question.

The Protestantes.

WE denie not, but that the catholike vniuersall church, as it hath hitherto continued since the beginning of the world, so shall it endure to the end: the Lord shall neuer want vponupon earth a companie of faithfull men, which shall truly serue him: though it be not necessarie, neither hath alwayes bene seene, that they should be in any one place. A visible church we define to be a congregation of men, amongest whom the word is truly preached, and the Sacraments administred: such a Church hath not alwayes bene, neither can we be assured that it shall alway be found vponupon the earth, wherein the worship of God publikely and visibly is practised.

1 In the raigne of Ahaz king of Iuda there was no visible church, where the pure worship of God was practised, for both Israell vnderunder Pekah, and Iuda vnderunder Ahaz, fell to Idolatrie, and folowed the custome of the Gētiles. 2. Kings. 16.3. yea Vriah the high Priest consented with the king to set vp Idolatrie. Likewise in the dayes of Manasseh, who did euill after the abhomination of the heathen. 2. Kings. 21.2. there was no place, where God was publikely worshipped. for Iudah was corrupted, Israell was carried away captiue, Ergo there was a time, when there was no visible Church.

2 In the Passion of our Sauiour there was no visible church, such a church we still meane, as where there are, Prelati & subditi, pastores & oues, Prelates and people, pastors and sheepe. We proue it thus.

The visible Church was not amongest the Pharisies and Priests, for they shamefully and wickedly erred. Bellarmin. 17. It was not among the Apostles, for they also erred, therfore after the Papists opiniō they were not the Church: for the Church (say they) erreth not. Secondly he saith, they were yet but materiall partes, not formall, that is, not Bishops or Pastors, how then could there be a visible Church, which was without the formal and principall parts, that is Pastors and Bishops, Ergo there was then no visible Church.

3 When the abhominatiō of desolation shall stand in the temple, & there shalbe a generall defection and apostasie from the faith, then shall the visible p. 55church fayle vponupon earth: But the first is true Math. 24.15. 2. Thess. 2.3. Ergo.

To the first place the Iesuite aunswereth that it must be vnderstood of the destruction of the temple. cap. 16. But the Rhemistes more liberall then so, affirme that it shalbe especially accomplished in Antichristes time, when as the sacrifice of the Masse shall vtterly be abolished. annot. in Math. 24. ver. 15.

To the next place, cōcerning that defectiō & apostasie, which S. Paul speaketh of, first he saith, that it shalbe a defection from the Romane Empire: but the Rhemistes say, it shalbe a defection frō most points of Christian Religion. Secondly, the Iesuite aunswereth, that though it be a defection from the Romane faith, yet it shall not be generall but particular: but the Rhemistes better aduised graunt it shalbe a reuolt of kingdomes, peoples, prouinces: & the publike entercourse of the faithfull with the church of Rome shall cease, they shall onelyonly communicate with it in hart. annot. in 2. Thess. 2. Sect. 6.

Now out of their owne wordes we conclude: there shalbe a time whē as the publike seruice of God shall cease, there shalbe desolation in the Churches and temples of Christians: there shalbe then no publike entercourse with the Church, but a priuat communicating in hart, Ergo there shalbe a time, when there shalbe no outward visible Church notoriously and famously knowen: Ergo our aduersaries are in an error, & are condemned by their owne mouth.

THE THIRD QVESTION, OF THE notes and markes, whereby the true Church may be discerned and knowen.

FIRST OF THE FALSE AND ERROneous notes of the Church.

OVr aduersaries do deuise many notes, whereby their Church is discryed, as Bellarmine reckoneth vp▪ 15. in order, to many (certaine) to be found in a good Church: but there are six principall, which they doe most stand vponupon: antiquitie, vniuersalitie, succession, vnitie, the power of miracles, the gift of prophesie. We must first touch these in order, and then come to the true and infallible notes of the Church.

Of antiquitie. Note. 1.

THe Papists make great bragges of the long continuance of their Church: yea that they can shew the discent of their Church from Adam. Rhemistes. error 18 annot. in Act. 28. Sect. 5. But (alacke) sillie men they must come short of our Sauiuiour Christs and the Apostles time, by fiue or six hundred yeares, for the most of the opinions, which they now hold. Let vsus examine their reasons.

In any great chaunge of Religion (say they) the authors of the Sect, the time when it began, the persons that oppugned it may be knowen: but no such thing can be shewed of our Church (say they) as we can shew of yours, we can p. 56tell them the yeare, the places, and ringleaders of their reuolt, say our English Rhemistes. annot. in 1. Iohan. 2. Sect. 9. Bellarmin. lib. 4. de Eccles. cap. 5.

We aunswere. First, no meruaile if Papistrie herein do much differ from other heresies: they, as the heresies of the Arrians, Pelagians, Donatistes, because they were not long to continue, sodainly brake out, and sodainly againe were extinguished. But Papistrie, being the prop and pillar of Antichrists kingdome, by whom the world must be deluded many yeares, was at the beginning to worke closely and secretly, not breaking out at once into open impietie and blasphemie, but vnderunder pretense of holynesse, to set a broach her deadly poyson: therefore S. Paule calleth it a mysterie of antiquitie, which began euen to worke in his dayes. 2. Thess. 2.7.

Secondly, we also aunswere, that all these things, the authors of their sectes, the time, the persons that withstood them, may manifestly be detected: first concerning the time, we hauehave a manifest Prophesie, Apocal. 20. that Sathan should be bound a thousand yeares, and afterward let loose: when no doubt Antichrist should begin to shew him selfe to the world. Cōcerning this space of a thousand yeares, there are two probable opinions: some thinke they are to begin immediatly after our Sauiour Christes time, and so counting a thousand yeares, all which time Sathan must be bound, then Antichrist should begin to appeare.Fox▪ pag. 426. Thus Iohn Wicliffe expoundeth it. Others say the thousand yeares ought to begin after the three hundred yeares expired of persecution: for all that while it is most like Sathan was let loose, when he raged with opē mouth like a Lion against the Church and Saints of God: of this opinion was Walter Brute somewhat after Wicliffes time: who by this meanes maketh the Prophesie of Daniell of 1290. dayes,Fox. 480. and that in the Apocalipse 12. of 1260. dayes, to agree with the thousand yeares of Sathans binding: for taking eueryevery day for a yeare, we shall come to .1290. yeares after Christ: when the thousand yeares must be expired, beginning from the three hundred yeares of persecution. If we count the thousand yeares from Christ, we shall come to the time of Hildebrand the seuenth, who was Pope of Rome, a thousand yeares after Christ and vpward: by whom the mariage of Ministers is thought first to hauehave bene forbidden: if we begin after the ceasing of persecution, which continued three hundred yeares, we shall fall into the yeare .1300. about the time of Iohn Wicliffe, Fox. pag. 101.whē the great rabble of Monkes and Friers began to swarme, and superstition to encrease.

But we will take a litle payne briefly to touch the authors of many superstitions in Poperie, and of their erronious and hereticall opinions. Anno. 420. Zosimus Bishop of Rome did chalenge a prerogatiue aboue other Churches, that it might be lawfull to make appeales frō other Churches to that sea: and to set the better colour vponupon it, he falsely alledged a decree of the Nicene Coū cell, but there was no such thing found there: wherefore it was decreed in the Councell of Carthage at that time, that none should appeale ouer the seas to Rome.

p. 57Bonifice the third, purchased of the wicked Emperour Phocas the title of vniuersall Bishop. Transubstantiation was first concluded against Berengarius anno. 1062. vnderunder Leo the ninth, but not publikely enacted before anno. 1216. vnderunder Innocentius the third. The Dominicke Friers brought in the same time,Fox. Martyrol. pag. 1147. and their Sect established by Innocentius the third. Auricular confession also was brought in anno. 1215. vnderunder the same Pope.

Mariage first prohibited by Nicholas the secōd, Alexander the second, Gregorie the seuenth, about the yeare 1070. The Communion in one kinde forged and inuented, and decreed in the Councell of Constance, not aboue two hūdred yeares ago. By these few examples it may appeare that it is false which the Iesuite saith, that the authors of their sectes and heresies cā not be shewed.

Now we will briefly declare, what oppugners and gainsayers they hauehave had in all ages, since their grossest opinions began to be receiued: Such were Bertramus and Berēgarius about pope Hildebrands time▪ that mightily impugned the grosse opinion of Trāsubstantiatiō. Robertus Gallus 1291. Robert Grosthead Bishop of Lincolne, who was called malleus Romanorū, the mallet or hammar of the Romanes anno. 1250. Franciscus Petrarcha 1350. Iohannes de rupe Scissa, who Prophesied against the Pope 1340. with many other,Fox. Protest. which ceased not to crye out against the abhominable vices and erronious opinions of the Church of Rome. Wherefore it is a great vntruth, which the Iesuite doth so stifly auouch that we can not set down the pedegree & discent of their church and faith, and how it hath continually bene resisted.

3 Now whereas they say, that they can name the ringleaders of our sect: we hauehave none other maisters and authors of our faith, then our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles, by whose holy writings we refuse not to be tryed: But you flye from the light: you disgrace the Scriptures, making them imperfect, and insufficient: this the true Disciples of Christ would not do, you are the Disciples of Christ, as the Pharisies bragged, that they were the Disciples of Moses: And as then the true church was not in those that sat in Moses chaire, though they could alledge great antiquitie, but in Christ and his Apostles: so is not now the true Church to be discerned, by custome or number of yeares, but by that truth, which was taught and preached by our blessed Sauiour, and his Apostles.

Of Vniuersalitie. Note. 2.

OVr Church is vniuersall, say they, both in respect of time, person, & place, error 19 it hath alwayes bene in the world, in all countrys and nations it hath florished, Ergo it is the true Church.

That it is vniuersall, they first proue by the name of Catholike, which is, say they, by Gods prouidence appropriat to them, which name they affirme without ground to hauehave bene imposed by the Apostles vponupon true beleeuers. Rhem. in Act. cap. 11. Sect. 4.

We aunswere. First, the name of Christians is a more honorable title then p. 58the name of Catholikes: for it is manifest Act. 11.26. that this name was vsed in the Apostles time, and by the Apostles them selues allowed: but it is not certaine that the name Catholike came from the Apostles. Againe many heretikes chalenged this name to be called Catholikes, who did not so easily obtaine to be called Christians: which ancient and honorable name the Papistes do despise, for in Italie and at Rome it is vsed as a name of reproch, to signifie a dolt or a foole. Fulk. in Acts. 11.26.

2 We say that you doe vsurpe this name, as the Donatistes in Augustines time would be called Catholikes: for what is the name of Catholike, without the Catholike doctrine? They are the true Catholikes, that professe the auncient and Apostolike faith: to vsus therefore, be it knowen to you, this name of better right appertaineth, then to you (ô ye Papists) yet we hauehave better argumentes to proue our Church by, then by sillables and titles: Quasi nos (saith Augustine) huius nominis testimonio nitamur ad demonstrandam Ecclesiam, Epist. 48.& non promissis Dei. As though we (saith he) do leane vponupon this name to proue our Church by, and not rather vponupon the promises of God.

Secondly, they proue their vniuersalitie, by the multitude of people, that hauehave receiued the Romish faith: and their Church (say they) hath replenished the greatest part of the world. They would proue this by the propagation of the Church, in the Apostles time, in Tertulian, Irenaeus, Hierome, Augustine, yea and afterward in Gregories dayes: yea and now also besides many great countryes in Europe, they hauehave of their church in India, America, & the vnknowen parts of the world. Bellarmin. cap. 7. nota. 4.

We aunswere. First, the truth is not alwayes to be measured by the iudgement or opinion of the multitude: folow not a multitude saith the Scripture to do euill: the greatest part is not the best: Christ calleth his flocke pusillum gregem, a litle flocke, feare not litle flocke (saith he). Secondly, you hauehave nothing to do with the Church, which was propagated in the Apostles time, nor for the space of fiue or six hundred yeares after Christ: it was not your Church, for the most of your heresies are more lately sprong vp then so. And you need not bragge of your vniuersalitie now: for the Turke (I trow) hath a larger dominion then the Pope, and Mahometisme is as largely spread as Papistrie, and further to: And for Europe, I hope you neede not make your boast: the Pope had neuer lesse iurisdiction, then he hath now, and I trust eueryevery day, shall hauehave lesse. But many (you say) in the new found countryes, hauehave bene cōuerted to your religiō. In deed, if you had had grace, such an opportunitie being offered as the Spaniards had, you might hauehave won that simple people to Christ. But you thirsted more for their gold, then for their soules health: it is notoriously knowen to the world, what extreme crueltie hath bene wrought vponupon that innocent people. Was that a Catholike part of the Spaniardes to keepe dogges of purpose, to werry and destroy the inhabitants, to vse them as horse and beastes, to plough, to carry, to digge? Thus by your crueltie, there were out of one small Iland called Hispaniola, which was well peopled and inhabited, p. 59destroyed and rooted out in short time, two milions of men and women, the storie of Benzo an Italian is abroad to be seene of this matter: you hauehave none or few of your Popish Catholikes in those countryes, but of your owne brood, that hauehave bene sent thither, but enough of this.

3 We nothing doubt, but that our faith, the truth of the Gospell hath bene long since knowen and published to the whole world.

Those two cōditions, which the Iesuite putteth in, to make the Church vniuersall, do helpe vsus very well: the first is, that it is not necessarie, that all coū tryes wholly should professe the Christiā faith: but it suffiseth, if there be some of the church in eueryevery country: the second, it is not requisite, that this vniuersalitie of the Church should be all at one time, but if it be done successiue, that is, in diuerse ages, one country to be ioyned to the Church after another, it is enough.

Now keeping these two conditions, we shall easily proue our Church to be vniuersall: for there are no countryes in Europe, and few in the whole world, wherein there are not some of our faith, namely that abhorre worshipping of Images, do onelyonly hope to be saued by faith in Christ without merite, and beleeue in the rest, as we do. And againe taking one age after another, we shall easily make it good, that our faith at times hath spread it selfe ouer the whole world.

The third Note of Succession.

THey make great boast of the long and perpetuall successiō of their Popes error 20 from the Apostles for the space of these 1500. yeares and more: condemning all Churches, which can not shew the like order of succession. Bellarmin. cap. 8. Rhemist. annot. in Ephe. 4. ver. 13.

We aunswer. First, they can not shew such an entier and perpetuall successiō, without any interruptiō or discontinuance for so many yeares: for sometime there were two, sometime three Popes together, and this schisme continued 29. yeares, till the Councell of Constance, where three Popes were deposed at once, Benedict 13. the Spanish Pope: Gregorie 12. the French Pope, and Iohn 23. the Italian Pope.

2 If succession be so sure a note of the Church, it is found also in other Churches besides: as in Cōstātinople, where hath bene a perpetuall succession, as Nicephorus saith, from S. Andrew the Apostle: in Antioch from S. Peter: and in other Churches in Grecia. The Iesuite here is driuen to his shiftes, and hath nothing to say, but this: that the argument foloweth negatiuely, that where there is no succession, there is no Church: not affirmatiuely, that where any succession can be shewed, there straightwayes it should folow there is a true Church: so by the Iesuites owne confession he hath made but a bad argument for the Church of Rome: we hauehave a perpetuall succession of Popes from the Apostles time, Ergo we are the Church. It foloweth not: saith the Iesuite, we graunt it. Why then a litle before did he call it insolubile argumentum, an insosoluble p. 60and vnanswerable argument.

3 Thirdly we say, that a succession of persons in the same place, without succession of doctrine, which they can not shew, is nothing worth. A succession of the Apostolike faith and doctrine proueth a continuance of pastors and teachers, and not contrariwise. We hauehave the Apostolike faith, and therefore, we doubt not but that there hauehave bene continually in the Church faithfull teachers, by whom that doctrine hath bene preserued and kept: though they were not famous, nor carried a glorious shew in the world. For that outward succession is not necessarie, neither so much to be stood vponupon. Augustine, whē he had alledged succession against heretikes, concludeth thus: Quanquam non tantū nos de istis documentis praesumamus, Epist. 165.quā de Scripturis sanctis: although (saith he) we presume not so much vponupon these documēts as of holy Scripture.

The fourth Note, of Vnitie.

error 21 OVr aduersaries do stand much vponupon vnitie: which they thinke is the glorie of their Church: they doe embrace vnitie amongest them selues, and all ioyne in obedience to their head. Their vnitie also is seene, say they, in the wonderfull consent of all their writers in matters of Religion: and the notable agreement and concord in the decrees of their Popes and Councels. But as for vsus, and our Church, they say it is full of rents, schismes and diuisions. Bellarm.

First of the vnitie of their church, and then of the vnitie of ours. Their vnitie, they say, is partly seene in their obedience, and louing societie and felowship, partly in their Religion and doctrine.

First for their concord and louelove one toward another: we will take some paynes, a litle to decypher it. About the yeare of the Lord 900. there was pretie sport amongest the Popes, nine of them one after another. Stephen the sixth abrogated all his predecessor Formosus decrees: and not content with that, he tooke vp his body which was buried, and cut two fingers of his right hād off, and commaunded his body to be buried againe. After him succeeded Pope Rhomanus, Theodorus the second, Iohn the tenth, who ratified and confirmed the doings of Formosus. After them folowed Pope Sergius, who disanulling all their actes, tooke vp againe the body of Formosus, cut of his head, and commaunded his body to be throwen into Tiber the great riuer in Rome.Fox. pag. 146. Was not here great amitie and louelove thinke you, amongest the Popes?

Another notable example of their vnitie we hauehave in Pope Vrbanus time the 6. against whom stood vp a contrarie Pope in Fraunce named Clement: it is worth the noting, what coyle these two popes kept: between whō many battailes were fought, many thousands slaine. Pope Vrbane beheaded fiue Cardinals together after long torments. Bishop Aquilonensis, because he did ride no faster, was had in suspition, and slayne and cut in peeces by Vrbans souldiers, at his commaundement,Fox. pag. 434. behold here I pray you the vnitie of these Catholikes.

We will adioyne one other example, no longer since, then in king Henry the eights time. The Duke of Bourbon being the leader of the Emperors armie, p. 61layd siege to Rome, and sacked it: the souldiers brake in vponupon the Pope, which was Clement the seuenth being at Masse, slew diuerse of the Priests, and one Cardinall called Sanctorum quatuor: they layd siege to the Castle of S. Angell, so long till the Pope yeelded him selfe. The souldiers dayly that lay at the siege, made iestes of the Pope: sometime they had one riding like the Pope with a whore behind him, sometimes he blessed, sometime he cursed: sometime with one voyce they would call him Antichrist. See here is their Catholike obedience to their chief Bishop.Fox. pag. 988. Thus much concerning their vnitie and concord in life.

Let vsus likewise take a view of their vnitie in doctrine. We heard before how Pope Stephen and Sergius abolished the decrees of Formosus: how then saith the Iesuite, that the decrees of Popes do consent together? The Councell of Basile, and Constance before that decreed, that the Pope should be subiect to generall Councels: but this Canon was afterward reuersed, and now generally the Papists hold the contrary, that the Pope is aboue Councels.

Let vsus see the consent of their writers: Bellarmin. lib. 1. de verbo. cap. 12. maintaineth against Lyranus, Driedo, Genebrard, and others, that Iudith was in Manasses time. Against Alphonsus de Castro, that heretikes are no members of the Church. Lib. 3. de Eccles. cap. 4. Against Iohannes de turre cremata, that faith is not necessarie to make one a member of the Church. Lib. 3. de Eccles. cap. 10. And eueryevery where the Iesuite taketh great libertie to confute and controll other his felow Papistes: belike hauing found out some starting holes, that they either knew not, or were ashamed to creepe into, as the Iesuite doth.

But (saith he) we denie not but that we hauehave dissentions, but they are not in materiall points, but in such things as appertaine not to faith. I meruaile, he blusheth not thus to say, him selfe knowing the contrary. Is it not a substantiall point and belōging to faith, to know which bookes are canonicall Scripture, which are not? But in this question they do much disagree. Caietanus the Cardinall saith, that we must acknowledge no Scripture, but that which was either written, or approued by the Apostles. But Catharinus a Papist, doth reiect that opinion. Hugo Cardinalis, Arias Montanus, do hold no bookes of the old Testament to be canonicall, which are written onelyonly in Greeke: the Papistes now generally hold the contrary. Ex Whitacher. 1. contr. c. quaest. cap. 6. Bellarmin saith, that all those opinions, which the Church holdeth, as articles or preceptes of faith, were deliuered by the Apostles: & that the Church must not now seeke for new reuelations, but content her selfe, with the Apostolike traditions and doctrine, de Scriptur. lib. 4. cap. 9. Out of the which words it doth necessarily folow, that the church is not now to foūd any new article of faith: but this generally is denied by the Papistes: and Stapleton an English Papist, is not ashamed to say, that the Church, may adde more bookes to the canonicall Scripture, by her absolute authoritie.

Further, to beleeue that the virgine Marie was without sinne, yea conceiued without originall sinne, is now amongest the Papistes receiued for an article p. 62of faith: and therefore in Paris none are admitted to be Doctors of Diuinitie, which doe not first confirme this article by their oth. Yet this was a great question betweene the Scotistes and Thomistes, and a great and hote contention arose about this controuersie anno. 1476. betweene the Dominicke Friers, who affirmed that she was conceiued in sinne, and the Franciscanes, that held the contrary.Fox. pag. 801. But these Franciscanes had the vpper hand, and foure of the other order were condemned and burned for it at Berne: and yet for all this our aduersaries will say still, that they varie not▪ in matters of faith. Thus we hauehave seene, what is to be thought of Popish vnitie.

Now to answere briefly to their false accusation, whereby they charge vsus with manifold schismes and dissentions: yea Bellarmin is not ashamed to say, that an hundred seuerall sectes are sprong amongest vsus. cap. 10. lib. 4. de Eccles.

1 We say with S. Paule: oportet haereses esse. 1. Cor. 11. there must be heresies and diuisions in the Church. And it is a signe we hauehave the truth, when the deuill goeth about by schismes and contentions to hinder the preaching thereof. We answere to you, as Augustine did to the paganes. Non proferant nobis quasi concordiam suam: hostem quippe, quem patimur, illi non patiuntur: Let them not boast of their concord, and cast in our teeth the dissention of Christians: the enemie assaulteth not them as he doth vsus: Quid ibi luchri est, quia litigant, vel damni si litigant: the deuill shall get nothing if they should disagree, nor lose any thing by their agreement: for he hath sure hold enough of them already, consenting all in Idolatrie. But amongest Christians he laboureth to hinder the truth by discord, because he can not otherwise withdraw them frō the true Religion. Hearken now (ô ye Papistes) if you consent together, it is in euill: so long it pleaseth the deuill well enough: he should destroy his owne kingdome in sowing dissention amongest you, for you fight for him. He vseth to cast fire brands amongest good Christians, to withstand by this meanes the proceeding of the Gospell.

2 It is a great sclaunder, that there are so many diuisions amongest vsus: an hundred saith the Iesuite, but he shall neuer proue ten. He might hauehave bethought him selfe of a full hundred of sectes amongest his owne darlings the Monkes and Friers, as M. Fox hath faithfully gathered the number. pag. 260.

3 Those few schismes and dissentions, which we hauehave (and yet to many, we must needes confesse) are not about points of faith, and articles of Religion: but concerning some things belonging to discipline and Church gouernement: which matters we denie not, but hauehave bene somewhat to hotely and egerlie folowed of some amongest vsus: but God be thanked, this contention hath not bene pursued by fire or death, as the Franciscanes did persecute the poore Dominickes: nor yet to the pronouncing of ech other heretikes, as Eugenius your Pope was condemned as an hereticke in the Councell of Basile.

p. 63The fift Note of the power of working miracles.

THis they affirme both to be necessarie in the Church, to hauehave power to work error 22 miracles, for the confirmation of the faith, when there is any extraordinarie chaunge or innouation of religion, and that it is a sufficient note to describe the Church: for it cannot bee, say they, but that, wheresoeuer this power is found, there should be the true Church.

And hereupon they take occasion to extoll the miracles of their Church: beginning at the Apostles time, and so in euerie age they take vponupon them to shew, that their Church neuer wanted those that were endued with this power. Bellar. cap. 14.

We answere. First, the gift of miracles doth no more prooue that to bee the true Church where they are wrought, then they to be holie men and elected of God, that doe them: The Magicians wrought many straunge things in Aegypt, cōtending a great while with Moses: Antichrist shal come working with signes and wonders. 2. Thessal. 2. Therefore this proueth not a Church. But heere they hauehave a double euasion: these were false miracles, wrought by the diuell, as those of the Magicians, or els but forged, and onelyonly to the eye, and in outward appearance, as Antichrist is sayd to come with lying wonders. We replye. First, they are called lying wonders, not that they are done in shewe onelyonly, and hauehave no such thing indeede, but because they are wrought to confirme lyes, and discredite the trueth. Secondly, your miracles are very like to be such, both wrought by the power of the diuell, and some of them but iugling feates of cousoners. Thirdly, yet a wicked man may hauehave power to worke miracles, not in shewe, but verily and indeed, as to cast out diuels, and to doe it in the name and power of Christ, and yet be none of Christs disciples. Matth. 7.22.

2 Concerning your miracles wee answere, that they are either fables, and old wiues tales, and no credite to bee giuen vntounto them, or els they are one of those two sorts, whereof Augustine speaketh:De vnitat. eccl. cap. 16. Remoueantur ista vel mendacia fallacium hominum, vel portenta mēdacium spirituum. Away with those miracles, which are either cousoning trickes of deceitfull men, or wonders of lying spirits.

First, Monkish fables are not a whit daintie with our Romish Catholikes, their Legendes are full of them: As that of Berinus, how being in the middest of the sea, sayling into France, hauing forgotten somewhat at home,Fox pag. 122. went back walking vponupon the sea, and came to them againe hauing not one thred of his garment wet. Many like tales are reported of Aldelmus Abbot of Malmesburie, as how he caused an infant at Rome of nine daies olde to speake, to cleare Sergius the Pope, who was thought to be his father: how he drew along a great piece of timber, that went to the making of the Church at Malmesburie. Such good stuffe also they hauehave of Iohn of Beuerley, of Egwine Abbot of Euesham, who when he had locked his feete in fetters, and cast the key into the sea, afterward a fish brought the key againe into the ship where he was sayling. Reade M. Foxe p. 64pag. 125. All these and a thousand more are but Monkish fables and dreames, whatsoeuer the Iesuite maketh of them.

Secondly, it is out of doubt, that some of them were well practised with the diuell, and through his helpe could doe much. We will begin with Dunstane, who caused a Roode to speake, which was more strange, then that of Balaams asse: for the asse had life, though she had no reason, but this image had neither: Polidore Virgil thinketh little better of Dunstane for this deede doing, but that he was a sorcerer. Fox. pag. 158.

It is famous in histories, how Siluester the 2. was aduaunced to the Papacie by the diuell, and gaue himselfe vntounto him, and how, hauing some remorse before his death, he confessed the fact before the people, and willed that his bodie should be drawne of wilde horse when he was dead,Fox. pag. 167. and there be buried where the horse left it of their owne accord. How much such diabolicall practises are fauoured by the sea of Rome, may appeare by this one example, which we will now touch: In Pope Adrians dayes, not many yeares agoe, there was a most abhominable thing practised in Rome, euen vnderunder the Popes nose, and by his permission and sufferance. The citie of Rome being at that time grieuouslie scourged and punished of God with the pestilence, there was one Demetrius a Grecian, who with the good liking of the whole citie, to appease the wrath of their gods, tooke a wild Bull, whom with magicall enchantments he made so tame, that he led him with a twine thred,Ex Paul. Iouio tom. 2. lib. 21. and so sacrificed him: And this being done, the sicknes somewhat slaked. Call ye this the Church of God, that suffreth such heathenish and abhominable superstitions to be done in it? Or shall I take these men for Christians, that doe allow the idolatrous and diuellish sacrifices of the heathen?

Thirdly, let vsus see what pretie fine iugling casts hauehave been wrought by the Papists to deceiue the people. In King Henries dayes, there was a monstrous Idoll called the Rood of grace, which was made so with wiers and ingins, that one standing within could make eueryevery part of the Idoll to moue, the hands, the eyes, the mouth: if a man brought but a small piece of siluer, it would hang downe the lippe; if it were a good piece, then should his iawes goe merilie: This abhominable Idoll by the Lord Cromwels meanes was broken downe, and the engines and parts thereof shewed at Paules Crosse. Such a like thing was the bloud of Hales, which they made the people beleeue was some of Christs bloud, but in the ende it was found to be but the bloud of a drake, and shewed likewise at Paules Crosse. Fox. pag. 1188. At Calis in the Sepulchre, it was said, there were three hostes besprinkled with bloud (as it was put in writing vnderunder Bull and Pardon:) but the place being searched at King Henries commaundement, they found three white counters sodred in the stone with the top-bone of a sheepes tayle. pag. 1223. A thousand such forged deuises the Papists had, which they are not ashamed to maintaine for straunge and holy miracles. By this that hath been shewed, it is euident (I hope) to the indifferent reader, what small cause our aduersaries hauehave, to boast of their miracles.

p. 653 Now to adde somewhat concerning the miracles of our Church. First, we truely say, that our doctrine is not newe nor straunge, and therefore, they are not to call for miracles at our hands. The miracles of Christ and his Apostles, are also our miracles, seeing we professe the same doctrine, which was confirmed by those miracles. Secondly, yet, the Lord be thanked, we are not destitute of miracles, as Augustine saith: Modò caro caeci non aperit oculos miraculo domini, at cor caecum aperit oculos sermone domini. Now, saith he, the blind doth not receiue his bodily sight by the power of Christ, but the blind heart is lightened and illuminate through the Gospell of Christ: Such miracles (the Lord be blessed) we can shewe: sinners are conuerted, afflicted consciences are comforted, the ignorant are instructed, many are called by the preaching of the Gospell. Thirdly, if this will not content them, but they still crye with open mouth, and say, where are your miracles? Behold, to stop their wide and clamorous mouth, we will shewe them also such miracles, as they looke for, like to which they hauehave none. Was not that a miracle, which Oecolampadius reporteth to hauehave been done at the Martyrdome of Master Hugh Spengler: who being cast into the water and so drowned, presently all the water was coloured with bloud,Ann. 1525. he hauing receiued no wound nor hurt in his bodie before: at the which all the people were greatly amazed?

But what thinke you of that straunge signe which George Scherrer shewed at his death, who being beheaded, the bodie lay a pretie space vponupon the bellie, till one might hauehave eaten an egge, and then turned it selfe vponupon the backe, & crossed the right hand ouer the left, and the right legge ouer the left: the Magistrates seeing it, hauing condemned his bodie to be burned before, being moued at the sight hereof, caused it to be buried. Fox ex Math. Illyrico.

It is worth the remembring, that is reported in the French stories of Petrus Burgerius a blessed Martyr: who was cast into a filthie dungeon, where a theefe had lien the space of eight moneths, being almost eaten vp with lice, and in such miserie, that he cursed his parents that bare him. This man through the teaching and the prayers of the Martyr, felt such comfort in the Gospell, that he became very patient in his affliction: and after his conuersion this straunge thing was wrought vponupon him: that whereas before he was so full of lice,Fox ex Ioh. Crispin. pag. 907. that he might hauehave plucked out twelue at once betweene two of his fingers, the next day he had not one.

Now, because the Iesuite hath such a spite at Luther (he is a great eye sore to him) we will in a word or two declare what straunge things were wrought by Luther. It is credible reported of him, that a certaine young man had bound himselfe by obligation to the diuell, sealed with his bloud to giuegive him his soule, so he might hauehave his wish and desire satisfied with money: In short time hee grewe to great wealth: the matter being disclosed with much adoe to Luther, he calleth the congregation together, and ioyneth in prayer for this yong man: and as they prayed, the obligation was cast in at the windowe.Fox. pag. 864. A notable and straunge miracle, which is crediblie reported of Luther.

p. 66He was a man feruent in prayer: one might hauehave seen the teares falling from his eyes as he prayed: And as he was earnest in prayer, so his prayers wanted not effect, for as he himselfe confessed, he had obtayned of God, that so long as he liued, the Pope should not preuayle in his countrey. And is not this also a thing to be wondred at, that for all the Pope and Emperour ioyned together, & bent their forces against this silly poore man; yet the Lord defended him from the Lyons teeth, and graunted him to end his dayes in peace?

Thus it is apparant and manifest, that the Lorde sheweth his miraculous power manie times in his Saints, to astonish the wicked: The great miracles which hauehave been declared in their holy martyrdomes, would fil a large volume: And by the grace of God, hereafter we may hauehave occasion in an other treatise of purpose, more at large to publish them. But these arguments wee doe not chiefly stand vponupon: Yet thus much was not amisse by the way to be put in, to requite our aduersaries withall, who doe so greatly magnifie and extoll their Antichristian Church, for their lying and fayned miracles.

The sixte Note of the gift of Prophecying.

error 23 THis also our aduersaries holde to be a perpetuall marke, whereby to knowe the Church: for they say that the true Church of GOD wanteth not those which are endewed with the spirit of prophecie: And so they beare vsus in hand, that in eueryevery age there hath flourished some Prophet in their Church: the first, that the Church shall alwayes hauehave Prophets, they would prooue out of Ioel 2. I will power of my spirit vponupon all flesh. The second, that they hauehave had such prophets, they do infer vppon a few forged examples, of Saint Barnard, and S. Frauncis, a popish Saint, and the founder of the superstitious order of the Franciscanes.

To the first we aunswere. 1. The prophecie of Ioel was accomplished in the Apostles time, Act. 2. as S. Peter expoundeth it, and therefore we need not looke further for the fulfilling of it. 2. The Church of the Iewes wanted Prophets for the space of 4. hundred years and more before the comming of Christ: for we read of no Prophet after Malachy: and the Church complayneth of this want, Psalm. 74. verse. 9. that they had Prophets no more: wherefore, the Church of God after the comming of Christ, may better spare this extraordinary function of prophecying, seeing both Christ is already come, who was the very subiect and matter of all the auncient prophecies: And wee hauehave also most euident prophecies of the Apostles, Rom. 11. cōcerning the calling of the Iewes, 2. Thes. 2. of Antichrist, in the Apocalipse of the general estate & conditiō of the Church to the end of the world: Som of which are already accomplished, som to be fulfilled in their seasō: In these prophecies we must rest & cōtent our selues, not looking for new reuelations. 3. There hauehave been Prophets amongst the heathen, out of the Church of God: they also can bring foorth diuers olde prophecies: so that if the issue lay in this poynt, they might as well contend to be the p. 67Church of God.Iustin. lib. 1. Astiages dreamed that hee sawe a Vine growing out of his daughter, that couered all Asia: which came to passe in Cyrus. Augustine reporteth a prophecie of Hermes Trismegistus, De ciuit. dei lib. 8. cap. 26how that all the Images and Idols of the heathen should be broken downe through all Aegypt. The Indians were foretolde of the Spaniards comming many a yeare before their arriuall in those places: Their Zemes, that is, their diuels, which they worshipped as Gods, told them, that there should come a people with long beards, fierce and cruell, that at one stroke should strike men off by the middle: And all these thinges fell out afterwards to that nation accordingly.Benzo. lib. 1. cap. ….

But they wil answere, that these were not true prophecies inspired of God, but vncertaine predictions of the diuell. What will they say then to Balaam, that prophecied of Christ? there shall come a starre of Iacob (saith he) Numb. 24.17, and in the same place he sayth, he heard the words of God.

The prophecies also of Sibill are wonderfull: which many yeares before the comming of Christ, prophecied of his incarnation, and of his passion, with the circumstances thereof, as how he should be crowned with thornes, that they should giuegive him vineger to drinke, how the vaile of the temple should be rent, & darknes should couer the earth for three houres: & he himself should rise the third day: yea she setteth down the very name of the Messiah, Iesus Christ. Aug. cont. Iudaeos. ca. 16. Tom. 6.These prophecies came not of the diuell, for these mysteries, without all doubt were not known to the euill spirits: for they were not fully reuealed to the Angels thē selues before the cōming of Christ. Eph. 3.10. Wherfore we conclude thus, that as the gift of prophecying is no sure signe that they are mēbers of the Church & elected of God, which are endued with it: as Christ saith, Math 7.22. that many which had prophecied in his name, in the day of iudgemēt should be refused: & Balaam is set forth as an example of a false Prophet & wicked mā: Ep. Iude. 11: so neither is this gift an infallible mark of the Church of God, whersoeuer it is foūd.

To the second part, concerning this miraculous gift which our aduersaries pretend to hauehave: we answere. 1. They are but fables which they bring: for if al that is reported of Saint Bernard in his life, of his miracles, and prophecies, were true, neither S. Paul nor any of the Apostles were to be compared vntounto him for number of miracles: such casting out of diuels out of men, women and children, healing of strange diseases, foretelling of thinges to come: the Gospell almost hath not stranger things of our Sauiour Christ.

As for Saint Francis, you may gesse by this, what spirit he was of, that prescribing to his followers, a certaine strict order of liuing, as to wear no girdle, to goe barefoote, and such like, he called it regulam euangelicam, the rule of the Gospell: belike making himselfe an other Christ, and so bringing in another Gospel: for to all Christs Disciples Christs Gospel… is sufficient. 2. But if they hauehave any prophecies of credit, which they can shew, they are such, as are reported, of Pope Siluester the 2. who had warrant from the diuel; that he should not die before he sung Masse in Ierusalem: and so it came to passe, for hauing sung Masse in a chappell so called, he immediately dyed. Not much vnlike to this was that of king Henry the 4. who ended his life in a chamber at Westminster p. 68called Ierusalem, as he had an olde prophecie. Edward the 4. also was tolde that his successours name should begin with G. which was the cause of George the Duke of Clarence death, his owne brother: but the diuelish prophecie notwithstanding tooke place,Fox. p. 717. for Richard Duke of Glocester was king after him. In like manner Valence the Emperour had a blind prophecie, that one should raigne after him, whose name began with Theod. which made Theodorus to rebell against him: but so it came to passe in deede, that Theodosius was Emperour after him. Such blinde prophecies we denie not but the popish Church hath had many, which as you see, doo cause murder, sedition, and bloodshed: but other good prophecies comming of GOD, wee knowe them not to hauehave any.

3. Wee denie not, but that there hauehave liued some amongst them in their Church, which in those dayes were counted Prophets and Prophetisses, as Hildegardis, anno 1146. likewise Briget, Catherine Seuensis: whom Bellarmine reckoneth vp amongst others that wrought miracles. cap. 14. but concerning these we wil answere, as the Iesuite doth for Sibilla a Prophetisse amongst the heathē: that she prophecied as touching such matters as should fall out to the Church, for a testimonie of the faith of the Christians: And so to bee counted herein a Prophetisse of the Church rather than of the heathen. cap. 15. so wee say, that if those three abouenamed were Prophetisses, they were of our Church, and not theirs: for they prophesied of the decay of their Church and raising vp of ours. Hildegardis first prophecied of the beginning of Friers, and of their destruction, saying, that in the end, when their gifts and rewards ceased, they should goe about their houses like hungrie and madde dogges,Fox. p. 261. drawing in their neckes like doues. Briget prophesied of the Church of Rome, that it should be as a body condemned of a iudge, to hauehave the skinne flayne off, and the flesh to bee cut in peeces: Catherine de Senis, speaketh of a reformation of the Church, & such a renouation of Pastors: that the onelyonly remembrance thereof sayth she, m…keth my spirite to reioyce in the Lord.Fox. p. 842. All these things we see nowe accomplished: the sects of Friers in many places put downe: the Popish iurisdiction cast out; a notable reformation to be wrought in the Church. Our aduersaries (I thinke) hauehave not to reioyce in these prophecies: neither hauehave any great cause to chalenge them for their Prophets. But I will help them a little, and bring to their remembrance a notable Prophetisse of theirs in king Henry the 8. dayes, which was one Elizabeth Barton, a Nun, commonly called, the holy mayd of Kent, who beeing instructed by the Friers, fayned, as though she had many reuelations: she prophecied, that if the king proceeded in his diuorce, then in question betweene him and Q. Catherine, that hee should not be king one yeare, no not one monethmonth: But (GOD bee thanked) hee liued almoste twenty yeares after that, by whom many worthy things were wrought for the good of Christs Church. This prophetisse was afterward iustly met withall, and worthily suffered for her demerites, with all her accomplices: amongst the which, Fisher B. of Rochester was one,Fox. p. 1055 who thereupon was imprisoned, and forfayted his p. 69goods to the King. If they will bragge of their Prophets, let not the holy mayd of Kent be forgotten in any wise.

4. Now lastly because they shall not outface vsus with a vaine brag of Prophets: I will shew what prophesies the Gospell hath beene adorned withall. Was not Iohn Husse a Prophet, who thus sayd at his death: centum reuolutis annis deo respondebitis: after an hundred years you shall giuegive account of this your doing vntounto God? Likewise Hierome of Prage, post centum annos vos omnes cito: I cite you all to make answere after an hundred yeares. Which prophesie of theirs tooke effect accordingly: for both these holy men suffered martyrdome about anno 1416. and iust an hundred yeares after, anno 1516. the Lord raysed vp Luther, who indeede called the Pope and his doctrine to account.

Was not Sauonarola a Prophet, that sayd one should passe ouer the Alpes like Cyrus, who should destroy all Italie? and is it not so come to passe? for neither Cyrus, nor whosoeuer els could hauehave more layde wast the popish Italian Church then the word of God hath done, and the liuely preaching of the Gospell. Walter Brute prophecied that the temporalities should be taken from the Clergie for the multitude of their sinnes:Fox. p. 500. this Walter liued in king Richards dayes the second. Bilney that constant martyr and faythful seruant of God prophecied, that many Preachers should come after him, which should preach the same fayth that hee had taught, and should conuert many from their errors. And many such examples wee hauehave of holy martyrs and worthy Prophets: But we hereby doe not proue our Church: Yet this I hope hath not been out of the way, to hauehave aunswered a little to our aduersaries vaine and vntrue bragges.

Hitherto, we hauehave touched the principall notes and markes whereby the Papists doe decipher out their Church vntounto vsus: Now it followeth, that we declare the right and certaine signes of the true Church.

Of the true and infallible Notes of the Church of Christ.

THe outward tokens whereby the true visible Church is discerned, are not many in number, as our aduersaries doe reckon vp many: the Iesuite no lesse than 15. supplying belike in number that which they want in waight. Neither in this place doe we speake of the vniuersal Catholike inuisible Church which is beleeued and not seen, being an article of our faith: but of particular visible Churches, which are discerned and knowen by these two essentiall markes, the true preaching of the word, and right vse of the sacraments: Some also doe adde a third, namely, ecclesiasticall discipline. Beza confess. de eccles. art: 7. Hooper vponupon the Creede articul: 72. But this partly is comprehended in the 2. former: for there cannot be hearing & preaching of the worde, & the frequenting of the sacraments, vnlesse there bee an exercise of Church discipline: partly also we say that it is not so essential a note, as the other are: for the absence of the other make a nullity of the Church: If the word or sacramēts in substance p. 70be corrupted, the Church also is defaced: but if there be not an exact forme of discipline, it doth not straightway cease to be a Church: Wherfore we conclude, that the true preaching of the word, and right vse of the sacraments, are the only necessary and essentiall notes of the Church: Where these two are rightly vsed according to Gods worde, there is a right Church, as here in England God be blessed: Where they are falsely and impurely handled, there is a false and corrupt Church, as among the Papists: where they are not at all in vse, there is no Church, as amongst the Turkes, Iewes, and Infidels. First we will examine our aduersaries arguments, and then bring foorth our owne.

The Papistes.

1. BEllarmine thus argueth: the true notes of the Church ought to be proper and particular, not common and generall, as these are: for eueryevery sect of hereticks doe chalenge to themselues the right preaching of the word, and vsage of the sacraments. Ergo they are no true notes.

We answere. 1. It skilleth not how many do lay clayme to those notes: the word of God it self is a manifest iudge, where pure doctrine is taught, and the sacraments rightly kept according to the institution. It is no matter, howsoeuer Papists and other heretickes doe make their bragges, the scriptures themselues can soone decide this question. 2. I maruaile they are not ashamed to obiect, that our notes are common, seeing theirs are most common: for not only assemblies of hereticks, but euen the heathen and Idolatrous Gentiles might as well prooue themselues to be the Church, by those popish notes, of vniuersalitie, for Idolatrie had ouer-spread the whole world; of vnitie, they all consented to persecute the Church of Christ; of antiquitie, for the worship of Idols continued aboue two thousand yeares: of succession, for the monarch of the Assyrians endured 1300. yeares, their kings all this while one succeeding another. They had also Prophets, and such as wrought miracles. Our aduersaries may be now ashamed to cast vsus in the teeth, that our notes are common, when as theirs doe well agree to the Synagogues of Sathan, and assemblies of Infidels.

2. Sayth he, the note or the marke must be better knowen and more notorious, then the thing marked or notified by it: so are not these: for we know not which is the worde of God, nor what bookes are canonicall, and to be taken for scripture, but by the Church.

We answere: the Iesuite still beggeth that which is in question: a foule fault in a professed disputer: for hauehave we not largely prooued before 1. contr. quaest. 4. that the Church dependeth vponupon the authoritie of the scripture, and not contrariwise, and that there is no more certaine and euident and vndoubted thing in the whole world, vponupon the which a man may bee bolde to builde and ground his faith, then vponupon the scriptures? This sure is a childish and ridiculous argument, to take that as graunted, which is most of all in controuersie.

p. 713 The true notes (sayth hee) are inseparable from the Church: it is neuer without them. But many true Churches hauehave wanted these: The Church of the Corinthians was a true Church, and yet they beleeued not the resurrection. cap. 15. The Galathians were a true Church, and yet they held that Moses lawe was to bee obserued together with the Gospell. And, the Corinthians likewise did not sincerely obserue the Sacraments. 1. Corinth. 11. Ergo, they are no true signes.

We answere. First, this argument may with better right bee returned vponupon their owne head: for many true Churches hauehave wanted their markes: Christ and his Apostles had neither succession from Aaron, nor vniuersalitie, and yet they made the true Church. The Church of the Iewes after Malachies time had no Prophets, nor miracles, for the space of 400. yeares before Christ, & yet were they the true Church, and so of the rest of your notes, the Church of Christ hath many times wanted them. Secondly, It was not the whole Church of Corinthus that doubted of the resurrection, but certaine false Apostles that laboured to seduce others. 1. Corinth. 15.34. Some of you (sayth the Apostle) hauehave not the knowledge of God: he saith, not all. So likewise amongst the Galathians, there were false teachers, that stood for the lawe of Moses: Galath. 5.9. a little leauen doth marre the whole lumpe. It was not therefore a publike doctrine in the Church, but secretly taught by false Apostles. Thirdly, there may be some error in the Church, but being not fundamental, such an one as destroyeth faith, it doth not dissolue the Church: as there was some abuse amongst the Corinthians in receiuing the Sacrament: but the forme and institution and substance of the Sacrament was kept. Nay, yet to graunt a little more: though the error bee daungerous and of great waight and moment, and such an one, as being stifely maintained would destroye the faith and Church too: yet if they hauehave fallen into it rather of ignorance, then any other cause, and doe not continue in it, but doe submit themselues to bee reformed by the word, it ceaseth not for all that to be a Church. So the Corinthians referred themselues wholly and their opinions to the iudgement and determination of the Apostle. Hetherto our aduersaries hauehave sayd nothing agaynst vsus: now wee will say somewhat for our selues.

The Protestants.

1 FOr the sufficiencie of these Notes, we would desire no better arguments, then those which our aduersaries alleadged against vsus: for first our notes are proper onelyonly to the Church, and cannot bee found in any place, where the Church of God is not. Secondly, they are most notorious markes, and a man by the Scriptures may more easely knowe, what true doctrine is, and which are the right Sacraments, then which is the true Church. Thirdly, these markes can not be absent from the Church, but doe alwayes accompanie it, and it is no longer a true Church, then it hath those markes.

p. 722 We are able out of the Scriptures to proue these marks, which may stand in stead of many reasons. Iohn 10. my sheepe heare my voyce: Ephes. 5. clensing it by the washing of water through the word: Ergo, the Word and Sacraments are true notes of the Church.

Bellarmine answereth to the first place, that the hearing of the word, is not a visible note of the Church, but a signe vntounto eueryevery man, whereby he may knowe his election. Wee replie agayne: looke which way a man is knowne to bee a member of the Church, by the same way the Church also it selfe is discerned: if the hearing of the word doe make one a sheep of Christ, then doth it also shew which is the flocke and fould of Christ: As I knowe my hand or foote to bee a part of my bodie, because it hath life and motion of the bodie: euen so the bodie is discerned from a carkas, because it moueth and liueth.

To the second place he answereth, very simply: that the Apostle there sheweth not, which is the Church, but what good Christ hath wrought for his Church. We replie againe: But the Church is best knowne by the benefites that Christ hath bestowed vponupon it, amongst the which the Word and the Sacraments are not the least: Ergo, by these the Church is knowne, and in that place by the Apostle described: And let the reader iudge, whether that place of the Apostle, where there is direct mention made of the word and sacraments, be not fitly applied to our purpose, concerning the description of the Church.

3 Let Augustine speake: In scripturis didicimus Christum, in scripturis didicimus ecclesiam: epistol. 166. In the scripture we doe learne Christ, in the scripture let vsus likewise learne the Church. His argument is this: Looke how Christ is knowne, so is his Church, but Christ is onelyonly knowne by his word: Ergo, so is his Church.

The fourth question of the authoritie of the Church.

THe Papists affirme, that the authoritie of the Church consisteth in these fiue poynts. First, in authorising the scriptures, and defining, which are Canonicall. Secondly, in giuing the sense of the scripture. Thirdly, in determining matters besides scripture. Fourthly, in making lawes & constitutions for the Church. Fiftly, in exercising of discipline.

Concerning the two last, we doe not greatly stand with them. We acknowledge the Church hath authoritie to make decrees and constitutions, but so, as the Apostles did: Visum est nobis & spiritui sancto, It seemed good to vsus and the holy Ghost: the Church must be directed by the wisedome of the spirit speaking in the scriptures.

We also acknowledge the holesome power of the Church in exercising of holy discipline: but it must be done in the name and power of Christ. 1. Cor. 5.4. not according to the will of men.

Concerning the two first: we hauehave alreadie shewed, that neither the Church doth giuegive authoritie to the word of God, but doth take her authoritie from thē: p. 73for the scriptures are of sufficient credite of themselues. 1. controu. quaest. 4. Neither that the sense of scripture dependeth vponupon the interpretation of the scripture, but that the word expoundeth it selfe: 1. controu. quaest. 6.

There remaineth therefore onelyonly one poynt to be discussed of the authoritie of the Church: namely in deciding of matters beside the scriptures: which are of two sorts, either necessarie appertayning to faith, or indifferent concerning ceremonies: of both these in their order.

THE FIRST PART, WHETHER THE CHVRCH hath authoritie in matters of faith beside the scriptures.

The Papists.

WE ought to take our faith and al necessarie things of saluation at the hands error 24 of our superiours. Rhemist. Act. 10. sect. 8. In poynts not decided by scripture wee must aske counsaile of the Church. Praefat. sect. 25. The Church is the onelyonly piller and stay to leane vntounto in all doubts of doctrine, without the which there can be no certaintie nor securitie: we must therefore beleeue it and trust it in all things. annot. 1. Timoth. cap. 3. sect. 9. Yea it hath authoritie say they, to make newe Articles of faith:Rhemist. 1. Timot. 3.9. as in the Councell of Constance it was decreed to be necessarie to saluation, to beleeue the Pope to be head of the Church. In the Councell of Basile it was made an Article of the faith, to beleeue that the Councell was aboue the Pope, and therfore Pope Eugenius in not obeying the Councell was adiudged to be an heretike.

1 VponUpon these words in the Gospel. Iohn. 15.27. the spirit shall testifie of me, and you shall beare witnesse also: they conclude thus: Ergo, the testimonie of the trueth ioyntly consisteth in the holy Ghost and Prelates of the Church. Rhemist. Iohn. 15. sect. 8.

We answere. The witnesse of the spirit, and of the Apostles, is all one witnesse: for the spirit first testifieth the trueth to the Apostles inwardly, and the Apostles inspired by the spirite did witnesse it outwardly: so the Pastors of the Church witnessing with the spirit, which is not now inspired by reuelation, but onelyonly found in the scriptures, are to bee heard: but if the spirit testifie one thing in the word, and they testifie another, there we must leaue them.

2 The Church erreth not: Ergo, we must heare her in all things. Rhem. 1. Timoth. 3. sect. 9. We answere. First, the Church may erre, if she followe not the scriptures. Proued before. 2. controu. quaest. 2. Secondly, so long as the Church heareth Christs voyce, we are likewise to heare hers: and so long as she is preserued from error, she will not swarue from Christs precepts, neither impose any thing vponupon her children, without the warrant of her spouse.

p. 74The Protestantes.

THat the Church hath no such power to ordaine articles of faith, or impose matters to be beleeued necessarie to saluation not contayned, or prescribed in the holy scriptures: We prooue it thus, and wee are sure, that the true Church of Christ will neuer chalenge any such prerogatiue.

1. All truthes and verities in the scriptures are not so necessary to saluation, that the ignorance thereof should bring perill of damnation: Ergo much lesse are any verities out of scripture of any such necessitie: the first is manifest: for to know the iust chronologie of time or space of yeares, from the beginning of the world to Christ, is a veritie in scripture, yet not necessary: so to beleeue that Marie continued a virgin euer after the birth of our Lord, was thought by Basile to be no necessarie poynt to saluation, if wee did hold her to hauehave beene a virgin afore: and many such other poyntes there are in scriptures, which a man may be ignorant of without perill of saluation, Ergo much more may we be ignorant of vnwritten verities, or rather Popish fables.

2. The Church hath no more authoritie then the Apostles, nor yet in all things so much: But they had no power to make articles of faith: for Saint Paul deliuereth that which he had receiued concerning the sacrament, he durst not adde vntounto it, as the Papists hauehave been bolde to doe since, 1. Cor. 11. Ergo the Church may explane and open articles of fayth out of the scriptures, but not make new.

3. We prooue it by the confession of our aduersaries. The fathers of Basile, that concluded, it was an article of the Christian fayth to beleeue the superioritie of the councel,Fox. p. 677. did gather it out of the saying of Christ, dic ecclesiae, and therfore enforced it as an article. Whereby wee gather, that they helde, that the Church could establish no article of fayth without scripture. Bellarmine likewise sayth, that the Church is not now gouerned by newe reuelations, but wee ought to be contented with those decrees, which wee hauehave receiued from the Apostles:Cont. de scriptur. quaest. 6. c. 4 Ergo, as D. Whitakers doth strongly conclude, the Church cannot coyne new articles of faith.

4. Lastly, we hauehave before prooued at large out of the worde of God, that the scriptures containe all things necessary to saluation: and therefore all articles of fayth must be deriued from thence. 1. controu. quaest. 7. And so we conclude with Augustine: Epistol. 49. quaest. 2.Linguae sonos, quibus inter se homines sua seusa communicēt, pacto quodā societatis sibi instituere possunt: Quib. autē sacris diuinitati congruerent, voluntatem dei sequuti sunt, qui rectè sapuerunt: Quae omnino nunquam defuit ad salutem iustitiae pietati que hominum. Men, sayth he, may deuise among themselues what language they will vse to expresse their minde: But howe to serue God, wise men euer followed the will and commaundement of GOD▪ which neuer hath failed men in all necessary matters concerning righteousnes and godlines. By this fathers sentence, the scriptures, which containe the will of God, containe all necessary things. Ergo, we neede not seeke elswhere.

p. 75AN APPENDIX OR MEMBER OF THIS part of the question, whether we are to beleeue in the Church.

The Papists.

WE ought to beleeue and trust the Church in all things: yea to beleeue in the Church. Rhemist. 1. Tim. 3. sect. 9. the scripture also vseth this speech error 25 to beleeue in men. annot. in 10. Rom. sect. 41.

1. Exod. 14.31. they beleeued in God and Moses. Ergo. We answere, your owne vulgar text hath it, crediderunt deo & Mosi seruo eius: they beleeued God and his seruant Moses: that is, hauing seene the great power of God in the destruction of the Aegyptians in the red sea, according to the word of Moses, they gaue credite vntounto Moses, which spake vntounto them from God.

2. Philem. v. 5. Hearing of thy louelove and fayth which thou hast toward the Lord Iesus and vntounto all the saints. See, say they, here is faith toward the saints.

Wee answere: there is no man, that is not peruersly disposed, but may easily distinguish the Apostles wordes: to attribute fayth to Iesus Christ, and louelove to the saynts: Which may appeare by the altering of the preposition, as they themselues read in their owne translation, louelove and fayth in Iesus Christ, and toward the sayntes: so it must needes bee thus vnderstoode, fayth in Christ, and louelove toward the sayntes: this therefore is but a sophisticall cauill.

The Protestants.

THis word, Credo, beleeue, is taken three wayes: for there is credere deo, to beleeue God, that is to trust him in all things, credere deum, to beleeue God to be, credere in deum, to beleeue in God, as our creator, Lord, and redeemer. So we doe credere ecclesiam, we beleeue there is one holy Catholicke Church: credere ecclesiae, we doe also beleeue and giuegive credence to the Church, following the word of God: But we do not in any wise credere in ecclesiam, beleeue in the Church.

1. We must not beleeue or put any confidence in a creature: the Church is but a creature, Ergo: for to beleeue in God, is onelyonly proper to the Godhead: and therefore, Iohn 14.1. where Christ sayth, ye beleeue in God, beleeue also in me: we doe necessarylie out of these words inferre, that Christ is God, because we are commaunded to beleeue in him.

2. Fayth is of things that are absent, and not seene: but the Church is present alwayes vponupon earth, and alwayes visible, as our aduersaryes hold: how then can it bee an obiect of our fayth? We can not beleeue in that which is visible & seene, for it is agaynst the nature of fayth.

3. Augustine sayth, sciendum est, quòd ecclesiam credere, non tamen in ecclesiam credere debemus, quia ecclesia non est deus sed domus dei: De tēpore serm. 131. We p. 76must know, that we are to beleeue there is a Church, not in the Church, for the Church is not God, but onelyonly the house of God.

THE SECOND PARTE OF THE QVESTION concerning the ceremonies of the Church.

The Papists.

THey doe holde that the Church of God may vse and blesse diuers elements error 26 and creatures for the seruice of God: as holy water to driue away diuels: the hallowing of salt, waxe, fire, palmes, ashes, oyle, creame, milke, honey, Rhemist. 1. tim. 4. sect. 12. & 13. Yea that the Church may borrow rites and ceremonies of the Iewes: ibid. sect. 18. Yea by the creatures thus blessed, or rather coniured, they say, remission of sinnes is obtayned, sect. 14.

2. Remission of sinnes was annexed to the oyle wherewith the sicke were annoynted, Iames 5. Ergo, remissions of sinnes may be applied by the like consecrated elements, Rhemist. 1. Tim. 4. sect. 14.

We answere: First, it followeth not, because the creature of oyle was vsed in the miraculous gift of healing, which ceremonie was no longer to continue, than that miraculous gift indured: it followeth not, that other elements may be vsed so now, there being not the like occasion, seeing all such myraculous giftes are now ceased. Secondly, it was not the oyle whereby their sinnes were forgiuen them, neither was it applied to that ende, it was onelyonly a pledge vntounto them of their bodily health: but the prayer of fayth shall saue the sick, sayth the Apostle, v. 15. for God hath promised to heare the faythfull prayers of his children both for themselues and others.

3. Saint Paul vsed imposition of hands, which was a ceremonie of the law vsed in consecrating of Priestes. Ergo, it is lawfull to borrowe ceremonies of the Iewes.

We answere: It followeth not, because Christ and the Apostles by the spirite of God retayned some decent actions vsed in the lawe, therefore now the Church at her libertie may take of the Iewish ceremonies: this is great presumption, to thinke it is lawfull for the Church to doe whatsoeuer Christ and his Apostles did. Fulk. 1. Tim. 4. sect. 18.

The Protestants.

ALthough there be great moderation to bee vsed in the ceremonies of the Church, and there is also some limitation for them: yet hath the Church greater libertie in the rites and ceremonies, which are appoynted for order and comelinesse sake, then in the doctrine of fayth and religion: The doctrine of saluation is alwayes the same, and cannot be changed, and toucheth the conscience: But rites and ceremonies are externall, and commanded for order sake: and neither are they vniuersall, the same in eueryevery Church, nor perpetuall, but are p. 77changed according to times, and as there is occasion. Againe, the precepts of Christianitie are either directly expressed, or necessarilie concluded out of the scriptures: but externall rites and ceremonies are not particularlie declared in the word: there are onelyonly certaine generall rules set downe, according to the which all ceremonies brought into the Church, are to bee examined: as for the Sacraments of the Church, they cannot bee altered, hauing a perpetuall commandement from Christ: Therefore the Church cannot appoynt, what, how many ceremonies soeuer she shall thinke good, but according to these foure rules and conditions, which followe here in order.

1 All things ought to bee done to the glorie of God, euen in ciuill actions, much more in things appertayning to the seruice of God, 1. Cor. 10.31. Our aduersaries offend agaynst this rule, applying and annexing remission of sinnes, to their owne inuentions and superstitious ceremonies, as vntounto penance and extreame vnction, which they also make Sacraments: for this is greatly derogatorie to Christs institution, who hath only appoynted the hearing of his word, and vse of the Sacraments, for the begetting and encreasing of faith, and by this faith only is the death of Christ applied vntounto vsus for the remission of sinnes.

2 All things ought to be done orderly and decently, 1. Cor. 14.40. Wherefore al ridiculous, light & vnprofitable ceremonies are to be abolished: such our aduersaries hauehave many, as knocking, kneeling, creeping to the Crosse, lighting candles at noone day, turning ouer of beades, and many phantasticall gestures they hauehave in their idolatrous Masse, as turning, returning, looking to the East, to the West: crossing, lifting, quaffing, and shewing the emptie cup, with many such toyes.

3 All things ought to bee done without offence, 1. Corinth. 10.32. But to whom, that hath but a little feeling of religion, is not the abhominable sacrifice of the Masse offensiue? What good conscience doth it not grieue, that the Priest should create his maker, as they say? should offer vp the bodie of Christ in sacrifice, and be an intercessor as it were for his mediatour, desiring God to accept the sacrifice of his sonnes bodie? As also to make it a propitiatorie sacrifice for the quicke and the dead? But of these matters we shall hauehave fitter occasion to entreate afterward, when we come to the seuerall controuersies.

4 All things ought to bee done to edifying, 1. Corinth. 14. vers. 12. But the popish ceremonies are so farre from edifying, that by reason of their infinite rabble and number, they are a clogge vntounto Christians, and more burdensome, then were the obseruations of the Iewes: They hauehave hallowed fire, water, bread, ashes, oyle, waxe, flowers, braunches, clay, spittle, salt, incense, balme, chalices, paxes, pixes, altars, corporals, superaltars, altarclothes, rings, swords, and an infinite companie besides: doe these tend (thinke you) to the edification of the minde? Nay, they doe cleane destroy and extinguish all spirituall and internall motions, drawing the heart from the spiritual worship of God, to externall beggerlie and ragged reliques and ceremonies. Fulk. 1. Timoth. 4. sect. 1. Beza. lib. confess. de eccles. articul. 18.19.20.

p. 78The fift question, whether the Church of Rome be the true Church.

THis question hath two parts. First, whether the Romane Church be the Catholike Church or not. Secondly, whether the Church of Rome be a true visible Church.

THE FIRST PART, WHETHER THE ROMANE Church be the Catholike Church.

The Papists.

BEllarmine defining the Church, maketh this one part of the definition, to be error 27 subiect vntounto the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction. Lib. 3. de eccles. cap. 2. And therefore they conclude, that they are out of the Church and no better then heretikes, that doe not acknowledge the Pope to be their chiefe Pastor. Canis. de praecept. eccles. cap. 9. So they make the Romane faith, and Catholike, to bee all one: Rhemist. annot. in 1. Rom. sect. 5.

Their reasons are none other, then we hauehave seene before, taken from vniuersalitie, antiquitie, vnitie, vntounto the which wee hauehave alreadie answered, quaest. 3. of this controuersie, Not. 1, 2, 3.

The Protestants.

WHile the Church of Rome continued in the doctrine of the Apostles, it was a notable and famous visible Church, and a principall part and member of the vniuersall Catholike: but now since it is degenerate and fallen away from the Apostolike faith, from being the house of God, to be a synagogue for Antichrist, we take it not to be so much as a true visible Church. But neuer was it to be counted the Catholike Church, as though all other Churches were parts and members of it: but it selfe onelyonly was a part as others, and Catholike too, while it continued in the right faith: but not Catholike as hauing iurisdiction ouer the rest, and all to receiue this name of her.

1 The vniuersall Catholike Church is so called, because it conteyneth the whole number of the elect and first borne of God, Heb. 12.23. Whereof manie are now saints in heauen, many liuing in the earth, many yet vnborne. But all these were not, neither are of the Romane faith: the holie men departed knewe not of these superstitious and prodigious vsages, which now doe raigne in the Church of Rome: nay, many of them neuer heard in their life so much, as of the name of Rome: Ergo.

2 It is called Catholike, and vniuersall, because they that are to be saued, must belong vntounto this companie, and be of this Church, for without the Church there p. 79is no saluation, for Christ onelyonly gaue himselfe for his Church to sanctifie it and cleanse it. Ephes. 5.25. But all that dye out of the faith of the Romane Church, do not perish. Nay verely, we doubt not to say, but that all which depart this life in the communion thereof without repentance, are barred from saluation, and dye out of grace. We are in the right faith: neither will we be our owne iudges, the scriptures shall iudge vsus: EueryEvery spirit that confesseth, that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. 1. Iohn 4.2. We beleeue aright in both the natures and all the offices of Christ: which you doe not, which doe greatly deface his prophetical office, in not reuerencing his word, but making it imperfect: his kingdom, in appointing him a Vicar and Vicegerent vponupon earth, as though he of himselfe were not sufficient to gouerne: his Priesthood, in setting vp another sacrifice: Ergo, your spirit is not of God.

3 The Catholike Church is so called, because it embraceth the whole and onelyonly doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles. Ephes. 2. vers. 20. But the Romane Church receiueth many things contrary to scripture, and addeth many things vntounto it, as it shall appeare throughout this whole discourse. Ergo.

4 The Catholike Church hath the name, because it is dispersed ouer the whole earth. Acts 1. vers. 8. But so was neuer the Romane faith, which is now professed, as we hauehave shewed before. Quaest. 3. de Eccles. Not. 2. Ergo, ex Amand. Polan.

THE SECOND PART: THE CHVRCH OF Rome is not a true visible Church.

The Papists.

THeir arguments are as wee hauehave heard. Quaest. 3. of the notes of the Church, error 28 grounded vponupon their succession, miracles, gift of prophesiyng: answered sufficiently afore, Not. 4.5.6. Wee neede not, nor must not for breuities sake repeate the same things often.

Protestants.

WE denie vtterly that they are a true visible Church of Christ, but an Antichristian Church, and an assembly of heretickes, and enemies to the Gospell of Iesus Christ.

1 That cannot bee a true Church, where the word of God is not truely preached, nor the Sacraments rightly administred according to Christs institution: So are they not in the Popes Church: For the word is not sincerely taught, but they hauehave added many inuentions of their owne, and doe preach contrarie Doctrines to the Scripture: the Sacraments also they hauehave not kept, for first they hauehave augmented the number: they hauehave made fiue more, of confirmation, orders, penance, Matrimonie, extreame vnction: beside, the Sacraments p. 80of Christ they hauehave corrupted. In baptisme, beside water, they vse spittle, salt, oyle Chrisme, contrarie to the institution: and they lay such a necessitie vponupon this Sacrament, that al, which die without it, say they, are damned. In the Lordes Supper, they hauehave turned the Sacrament to a sacrifice, made an Idol of bread, chaunged the Communion into priuate masses, taken the cup from the lay people, and many other abhominations are committed by them. Ergo, neither hauing the word, nor Sacraments according to the institution, they are no true Church.

2 They which are enemies to the true Church, and doe persecute the members thereof, are no true visible Church: they cannot be of that Church, which they persecute; as Bellarmine saith of Paul: how could he bee of that Church, which he with al his force oppressed? de eccles. lib. 3. cap. 7. But they persecute the Saints of God, & are most cruel towards them, as their consciences beare them record. Ergo.

3 The habitation of Antichrist cannot be the Church of Christ, so is theirs: the Pope himselfe is Antichrist: for who else but hee sitteth in the temple, being an enemie to Christ. 2. Thes. 2. Where hauehave you a citie in the world built vponupon seauen hilles but Rome? Apocalyps. 17.9. But of this matter we shall of purpose intreate afterward. Ergo. they are not a true visible Church.