A General View of Papistry, Book 2 · Controversy 9 · Part 2 · Question 3
THE THIRD QVESTION CONcerning the inuocation of Saints.
THis question hath three partes. 1. Whether prayers are to bee made vntounto Saintes. 2. Whether they do pray for vsus. 3. Whether they vnderstand our prayers.
THE FIRST PART, WHETHER prayers are to be made to Saints.
The Papists.
error 28 THeir assertion is this, Sanctos defunctos piè & vtiliter à viuentib. inuocari: that Saintes departed are with great profite and piety called vponupon, and prayed vntounto: and that it is not onelyonly lawfull but godly, so to do, Rhemist. 1. Tim. 2. sect. 4. Bellarmine cap. 19. lib. 1. De sanctor. beatitud.
Argum. 1. They say, they do not pray vntounto saints, as authors of any benefite or grace, but as intercessors onelyonly: Neither do they make them immediat intercessors, but onelyonly through Christ, concluding al their prayers, per Christū Dominum nostrum. Bellarm.
Ans. 1. It is false, that you pray vntounto thē as intercessors onelyonly, for you desire them not onelyonly to pray for you, but to hauehave mercy on you: for thus they pray, O blessed Lady hauehave mercy vponupon vsus, preserue thy seruants, let the merits of S. Marie bring vsus to the kingdome of heauen. Fulk. 1. Timoth. 2. sect. 4.
2. It is also false, that they make them not immediat intercessors, but conclude their prayers per Christum Dominum nostrum: For in that blasphemous prayer, Tu per Thomae sanguinem quem pro nobis impendit, fac nos Christe scandere, quò Thomas ascēdit: Here they aske life eternal of Christ by the blood of Thomas of Canterbury. How then is it true which the Rhemists affirme in word, that Christ alone by his merites procureth all grace and mercy towarde mankind, ibid: when they hope to obtaine their requestes by the merites of Saintes? See Fulk. annot. Iohn. 16. sect. 3. where diuerse praiers to saints, as to S. Marie, S. Osmond, S. Anne, S. Katherine, are rekoned vp, and none of them concludeth, per Christum Dominum nostrum.
Argum. 2. Exod. 32.13. Moyses thus prayeth, Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Iacob thy seruants: Moyses here hopeth to hauehave his prayers heard by the merits of these holy men, Bellarm.
Ans. Moyses rehearseth only the couenant, which the Lord made with these holy men and their seede, as the wordes following do shew, To whome thou swarest by thine owne selfe, and swarest vntounto them, I will multiplye your seede: Moyses therefore pleadeth not the merits of Abraham, Isaac, Iacob, but vrgeth and presseth the promise of God, and couenant made with them.
Argum. 3. The saints do pray one for another here vponupon earth, and do one desire an anothers prayers: as S. Paul Rom. 15. Ephes. 6. Coloss. 4. and in other places desireth to be assisted by their prayers: Ergo, much more may we desire the prayers of Saints departed. Bellarm. Rhemist.
Ans. 1. To pray one for another while we liue, is a duety of Charitie, and commaunded in scripture: but to request the prayers of saints departed, hath no warrant in the worde. 2. Wee do not desire the godly liuing to pray for vsus, as our Mediators, or as though by their worthines we are brought into the fauour of God, as you say the saints do: and therefore your argument followeth not, from the prayer of the liuing to the prayer of the dead. 3. We may one pray for another, and one request the prayers of another, while wee liue, because we know our mutuall necessities: But the saintes departed knowe not what things are done vponupon earth, neither are euerie where present to heare our prayers.
The Protestants.
THat prayer is onelyonly to be made vntounto God, and to no other creature beside, as being an especiall part of the worshippe of God, which we ought not to giuegive to any other: thus it is proued out of the word of God.
Argum. 1. Rom. 10.14. Howe shall they call vponupon him, in whome they hauehave not beleeued? But wee must beleeue onelyonly in God, and therefore onelyonly pray to God. Rhemist. answer, It is true, no more can we pray vntounto our lady, nor any saint in heauen, vnlesse we beleeue they can help vsus.
Ans. The scripture eueryevery where teacheth that we must beleeue in God, and that they are cursed that put any confidence in man, Ierem. 17.5. Againe, they can hauehave no assurance, to settle their conscience, but out of the scriptures: They hauehave a vaine perswasion of the ability of Saintes to helpe them, but they hauehave no ground of any such beliefe out of scripture.
Argum. 2. Heb. 4.16. Let vsus come with boldnes to the throne of grace, Ergo, we hauehave no neede of the inuocation of saintes, seeing wee hauehave free and bolde accesse through Christ.
Rhemist. By this reason we should not pray one for an other, while we are aliue. Ans. we do not put our confidence in the merite and worthines of other mens prayers, as you do in the intercession of saints. Againe, this mutuall duetie of prayer one for another, is commaunded and requyred of God, as the other is not: Wherefore to run vntounto saints, and not vntounto Christ, is to doubt either of his readines, or ability to helpe vsus.
3 Iohn. 16.26. Christ saith, that after he hath by his mediation and intercession brought vsus into the fauour of God, In that day shall you aske the Father in my name, and I say not, that I will pray to the Father for you, for the Father himselfe loueth you. If then the prayer of Christ to God his Father, shall not then be needfull, what vse is there of the prayer of other creatures? Fulk. 1. Tim. 2. sect. 4.
Augustine saith, Pro quo nullus interpellat, & ipse pro omnib. hic vnus, verusque Mediator est. lib. 2. cont. Parmenian. cap. 8. He for whome no man prayeth, but him selfe entreateth for all men, he is the onelyonly true Mediator: Ergo, saintes no mediators, and therefore not to be prayed vntounto.
THE SECOND PART, WHETHER THE Saints departed do pray for vsus.
The Papists.
error 29 THat the saints in heauen do not onelyonly pray in general, but particularly for vsus ready in all our needs by their prayer and mediation to assist vsus: thus they would proue it.
Argum. 1. 2. Pet. 1.15. I wil endeuour (saith the Apostle) that you may hauehave remembrance of these thinges after my departure. Peter promiseth to be careful of them, and to pray for them after his departure. Rhemist. ibid. Bellarm. cap. 18.
Ans. This which here the Apostle promiseth, he performeth in writing this Epistle, whereby they might be put in remembrance, when hee was gone. And therefore he saith. ver. 13. I think it meete, so long as I am in this Tabernacle, to stir you vp by putting you in remembrance: he acknowledgeth now only to be the time wherein he may do them good, and therefore deferreth it not. There is no sillable, which soundeth that way, that he would pray for them after his dissolution.
Argum. 2 Apocal. 5.8. The 24. Elders are said to hauehave golden vialles ful of odors, which are the prayers of the saints: Rhemist. in hunc locum. Ergo, the Saints in heauen do pray for vsus.
Ans. The 24 Elders do represent the Church Militant vponupon earth, whose conuersation is in heauen, and they do continually offer vp their prayers. And that the place is so to be vnderstoode, it appeareth verse 10. Thou hast made vsus Kinges and priests, and we shall raigne vponupon the earth: that is, their kingdome is spirituall, in fighting against, and ouercomming the concupiscence of the flesh and all carnall desires.
The Protestants.
THat the blessed Saintes doe sing vntounto the praise of God in heauen, and doe magnifie the Lord, and praise him with a new song of thankesgiuing, which is a kinde of prayer, we deny not, Apocal. 5.9. and that they hauehave a general desire and longing, both for vsus, for themselues, and all the elect of God, that the day of our refreshing were come, and that all the people of God were ioyned in one, and their enemies vanquished and destroyed, we learne also out of the scripture, Apocal. 6.9. But that they should offer vp our speciall prayers, & make particular request for vsus to God, it no where in the scripture is found, but rather the contrary.
Argum. 1. The scripture no where testifieth, that the Saints in such manner do pray for vsus: Ergo, we may safely be ignorant of it: nay it were great presumption, without scripture to beleeue it.
Argum. 2 The Saints departed know not our wants, nor what is done in the earth. The liuing know that they shall die, but the dead knowe nothing at all, Eccles. 9.5. But of this more shall be said in the next part. See Augustine of this matter. contro. 8. quaest. 2. part. 3.
THE THIRD PART, WHETHER THE Saints vnderstand our prayers, and be alwaies at hand to helpe vsus.
The Papists.
THey affirme 3. things, which they are driuē to graunt by necessity of Argument, while they stifly mantaine inuocation of Saints: For first they graunt error 30 that they know our hearts, and our inward repentaunce, and secret thoughtes, for otherwise it would not auaile to pray vntounto them, yet not of themselues, but by the reuelation of God. Bellarm. cap. 20.
Ans. We deny not, but that God may reueale vntounto them some things at his pleasure, but heereof it followeth not that they know all our affaires, and heare all our prayers.
Againe, what a preposterous order is this, and superfluous, God first reuealeth vntounto them our prayers, and then they solicite God in our behalfe? I praye you what neede this, seeing God knoweth our prayers? First, why is he not as ready of himselfe to graunt our requestes, as to staye till he be entreated?
Secondly, seeing it were in vaine to pray to Saints, if they had not power to help vsus: they also are vrged to confesse, that the saints are patrones of men, and hauehave the gouernment of the worlde committed to them: yea, that they may receiue others into the kingdome of heauen.
Argum. 1. Apocal. 2.26. To him that ouercommeth, wil I giuegive power ouer nations, and he shall rule ouer them with a rod of Iron: Ergo, the saints hauehave the gouernment of men committed vntounto them. Rhemist. ibid. Bellarm. cap. 18.
Ans. The power which our Sauiour heere promiseth, is the participation of his kingly inheritance, first, spiritually to ouercome the world by faith in this life, and after this life they shall be set in ful possession of his royall inheritance. The Rod of Iron, is the worde of God, which is also called a two edged sword, whereby they execute vengeance vponupon the heathen, Psal. 149.7. It is the sword of the spirite, whereby the wicked shall be destroyed. Augustin expoundeth it to be the rod of Iustice, whereby the good are corrected, and the wicked broken in peeces: Homil. 2. in Apocal.
Argum. 2 Luke 16.9. Make you friends of the vnrighteous Mammon, that when they need, they may receiue you into euerlasting habitations: see, the saints may receiue their friends and benefactours into their eternal mansions: Rhemist. ibid.
Ans. 1 Almes bestowed vponupon the poore do procure their prayers, but not their patronage. 2 The wordes are thus parabolically to bee vnderstoode: They shall receiue you, that is, shall giuegive testimony of you, and your almes shall be a testimony of your charity, and proceeding from a liuely faith, shall euerlastingly be rewarded. 3 That it is not meant of the persons, but of the worke, it is plaine, because almes which issue from a true faith, shall be rewarded at the Lords hand, though bestowed vponupon an hypocrite. Fulk▪ ibid.
Thirdly, They also hold that the saints at their pleasure can be present with their bodies, and be amongst vsus, and so heare our praiers Bellarm. cap. 20.
Argum. 1 Otherwise the saints should be fettered as it were in heauen, if they remaine and be kept all in one place. Ans. They are not fettered when they are limited by the Lord to a place: see also what a goodly opinion these fellowes hauehave of heauen, making a prison of it. Rhemist. annot. Apocal. 6.9.
Argum. 2 They follow the Lambe whither so euer he goeth: Ergo, they may be eueryevery where. Ans. That place Apocal. 14. is vnderstoode of al the elect, yea of those that do imitate & follow Christ, liuing vponupon earth. 2 If the souls are eueryevery where, because the lamb is eueryevery where, then Christ in his humanitie is eueryevery where, and so the Papists are become Vbiquitaries.
Argum. 3 The deuils are of great dexteritie, and celeritie in passing from one place to another. Ergo, much more the Saints.
Ans. 1 The argument followeth not: for deuils by property of nature together by the sufferance of God, do wander vp and downe the worlde, beeing thereto appointed of God: but the soules of saints hauehave no such office, as wee read in scripture, to be cursory spirites in the worlde. 2 Though it should bee graunted, that in a short time they are able to change their places: yet it is vnpossible, they should be in so many places to heare the prayers euerye where, made vntounto them, vnlesse they could be in diuerse places at once. Fulke Apoca. 6. sect. 1.
The Protestants.
FIrst, it is a great vntruth and blasphemie to say, that the saintes do know our thoughts, inward repentance, prayers, as the Rhemistes affirme.
Argum. 1 God onelyonly is the knower of the heart, neither doth he communicate this property of the Godhead to any creature: hee may reueale what hee thinketh good vntounto them: but for them, when they wil them selues, to know our secret praiers and meditations (for this is the question) it is impossible.
Argum. 2 Augustine, Out of those wordes of the Prophet Isay 63.16. Abraham is ignorant of vsus, and Iacob know vsus not, concludeth thus, Si tanti patriarchae, quid erga populum ex his procreatum ageretur, ignorauerunt, quomodo mortui viuorum rebus atque actibus cognoscendis adiuuandisque miscentur, De cum pro mortuisIf so great Patriarks were ignorant what became of the people which was borne of their loynes, how is it like, that other dead can be present to vnderstand, and be helping to mens affaires?
Secondly, We acknowledge no patrones, protectors or captains in heauē, but our Lord God and Sauiour Christ.
1 Psalme 73.25. The Prophet Dauid saith, Whome hauehave I in heauen but thee? and Iacob calleth only vponupon the Lord God, to be the guide of his iourney. Gen. 28.20.
2 By appointing saintes to be patrones of places and countries, at length they brought in a multitude of popish saintes, and were not in superstition farre behinde the Gentiles, who gloried in the number of their gods: For hauehave they not alloted some to countries, as S. George for England: S. Andrew for Scotland S. Denis for Fraunce, S. Patrik for Ireland? So likewise diuerse saintes were called vponupon for diuerse diseases, as S. Rombal for the tooth-ach, S. Petronil for the Ague: One for horse as S. Loye, S. Antony for Pigges, S. Gregorie for Schollers, S. George for souldiers: Euen thus the heathen inuented diuerse gods, Neptune for the sea, the Satyrs for the woods, the Nymphes for the water, Ceres for corne, Bacchus for wine, Venus for the Troians, Pallas for the Grecians, Iupiter stator for the Romanes.
Nay they were yet more ridiculous, they appointed many Goddes for one thing: As for Infantes Vagitanus, that made them to crye, CuCuninus, that kept them in their Cradle, Adeona, Abeona, to teach them to goe: So for the entrie of the house,August. li. 4 de ciuitate dei. ca. 8. they had Limentinus the God of the thresholde, Cardea the God of the hinges, Forrulus that kept the dore: for their corne, they had the Goddesse Seia when it was sown, Proserpina whē it sprouted, Nodotus when it knotted, Hostilina when it …ared, Flora when it waxed white, Runcina when it was cut downe. The like superstition almost raigneth in poperie. But what need we run to so many for these things, when as at the Lords hands we are promised, as king in the name of Christ, to receiue al things we neede? This great folly of theirs sheweth what good commeth by the deuised patronage of Saints.
Thirdly, it is also another popish fable and dreame, that the Saints may be present eueryevery where, as it pleaseth themselues, at their tombes and sepulchers, and wheresoeuer els they are called for.
Argum. 1 Acts 3.21. The heauens containe the humanity of Christ; it hath pleased him there to rest himselfe, vntill his comming to iudgement. Ergo, much more are the saints kept in their resting places.
Argum. 2 The Saints are at rest, they do cease from the affaires of this life, Apocal. 14.13. They rest vnderunder the Altar in the peace of Christ, Apocal. 6.9. there expecting and waiting the comming of Christ to iudgement: Ergo, they do not wander nor stray abroad in the world, neither do entermeddle with humane affaires.
Augustine saith, Si rebus viuentium interessent animae mortuorum, meipsum pia mater nulla nocte desereret, quae terra marique secuta est, vt mecum viueret: de cura pro mortuis. If the soules of the dead were present at the affaires of the liuing, my deuoute mother would neuer a night be from me, who when she liued, followed me by sea and land, to hauehave my company, and to liue with me: Ergo the saints departed are not present with vsus, when they would.