Discovery of a False Detection, Chapter 2

Discovery of a False Detection · Chapter 2

p. 54THE SECOND CHAPTER OF supposed Contradictions.

The 1. Contradiction.

HEre the Libeller obiecteth: 1. That Bellarmine is falsified to say, that the spirit of God is witnesse vntounto vsus, that the Scriptures are the word of God. pag. 154.

2. That the Scriptures themselues are p. 55witnesses, which words vttered by Bellarmine, shew a far different meaning, saith he. p. 155.

3. Another vntruth is noted, that Bellarmine should make no mention of the Church, to be a probation vntounto vsus of the Scriptures. pag. 156.

4. A contradiction is noted, because it is confessed that Bellarmine should say, that wee are not bound to take the Scriptures for the word of God, without the authoritie of the Church. pag. 148.

The Reconciliation.

1. FIrst, what difference I pray you, to say God himselfe is a witnesse to vsus, and the spirit of God is a witnesse (for this is one exception which the libeller taketh) is not the spirit of God, God? And think you, that when Bellarmine said, God himselfe is witnesse, he excluded the spirit? As though the inspiration, interpretation, protection and preseruation of the Scriptures be not the worke of the spirit of God? 2. Timoth. 3. 16. 2. Pet. 1. 21.

Yea but Bellarmine saith in another sense, that God is a witnesse, not by the inward testimony of his spirit, but by defending the scripture from humane profanation by heauenly punishment. Libel. pag. 154.

Cont. 1. Is this a good consequent I pray you? God beareth witnesse to the Scripture p. 56sometime by taking vengeance: Ergo, not by the inward testimonie of his spirit. Sir Sophister, if your Logicke had not here failed you, you would not hauehave made so slender a collection: for whereas Bellarmine maketh the great number of miracles the fift witnesse; doth not the Scripture say, Hebr. 2. 3. God bearing witnesse thereto with signes and wonders and diuers miracles? God then is not a witnesse onelyonly by punishments, but by signes and miracles.

2. Bellarmine himselfe saith afterward in the same chapter: Non omnes per internum afflatum Deus docet, &c. sed per corporales literas, quas legeremus & cerneremus, erudire nos voluit: God teacheth not all by inward inspiration, &c. but by corporall letters, which we should reade and see, hee would instruct vsus. We also refuse immediate reuelations and inspirations: but God by the lection and inspection of the Scriptures doth instruct vsus. God then doth vse the Scriptures themselues as meanes of this spiritual instruction, which is the inward testimonie of Gods spirit, by our outward reading and hearing of the Scripture, inwardly witnessing the truth thereof vntounto vsus: how much I pray you differ we now?

3. Whereas Bellarmine maketh these the witnesses of Scripture: first, the trueth of the prophesies: secondly, the agreement of p. 57the holie writers: thirdly, God himselfe: fourthly, the perpetuall truth of the Scriptures: may it not wel be gathered hereupon, that Bellarmine thinketh, that God inwardly working in our hearts by the Scriptures themselues, which wee finde to be most perfect, consonant, true, doth teach vsus which is the word of God: for I pray you, who maketh vsus to acknowledge the Scriptures, by the truth, harmonie, constancie thereof? doth not the spirit of God by these meanes mouing and perswading the heart? Bellarmine then is not slaundered at all, when it is affirmed, that in this place, he holdeth as wee doe concerning the meanes, how to know the Canonicall Scriptures: for we also teach, that the Scriptures by no forren or extrinsecall meanes, but from themselues, the veritie, harmonie, holines thereof, (the spirit of God hereby working in our hearts) are knowne to be the word of God.

2. Secondly, let it be seene whether in a different sense Bellarmine and wee in this place (for I deale no further) doe make the Scriptures witnesses to themselues. These are his words: Fourthly, the Scripture it selfe is witnesse, whose prophesies, if they were true of things to come, why should not the testimonies of things present be true? The Scripture then beareth witnesse to it selfe by the constant and perpetuall truth thereof: what other thing p. 58doe we say, but that the Scripture from it self doth proue it selfe, by the truth, constancie, maiestie thereof, to be the word of God.

3. Thirdly, Bellarmine maketh here no mention of the Church, among these fiue witnesses: 1. The truth of prophecies. 2. The consent of the holie writers. 3. God himselfe, &c. 4. The Scripture it selfe. 5. Postremò testis est, &c. Lastly is witnesse the infinite number of miracles. Now I pray you (sir Cauiller) is here any mention made of the Church? your dealing is too childish to send vsus to other places for Bellarmines iudgemēt: I know him to be elsewhere corrupt enough, I onelyonly vrge his testimonie against himselfe in this place.

4. Fourthly, so is your supposed contradiction also reconciled: for to say that Bellarmine in this place, among these fiue witnesses, maketh no mention of the Church, and y^• otherwhere he would hauehave the Scriptures depend vponupon the authoritie of the Church, is no contradiction in him that noteth this diuersitie, but in Bellarmine, that varieth from himselfe.

But now somewhat to answere to your blasphemous railings: as pag. 154. God may punish him for such trickes of falsification, tending to the seducing and vtter subuersion of sillie soules, &c. I say rather with S. Paul, God shall smite thee thou painted wall, Act. 23. 3. God wil iudge all such hypocrites in his time, as make p. 59no conscience to slaunder and reuile the members of Christ.

And if God doe sometime giuegive witnesse to the Scriptures, as most true it is, by punishing them, that prophane or blaspheme them, then how shall your popish writers escape vnpunished, that hauehave not been ashamed, thus vnreuerently to speake of the Scriptures? Hosius saith it is egenum quoddam elementum, a beggerly element: ex Nicol. Gall. Lodouicus saith, Scriptura est quasi mortuum atramentum: The Scripture is as dead inke: Illyric. in vorm. concil. The Bishop of Poicters, Scriptura estres inanimis & muta, The Scripture is a dumbe and dead thing: Sleidan. lib. 23. Eckius calleth it, Euangelium nigrum, & Theologiam atramentariam, A blacke Gospel, and inky Diuinitie: Kemnit. pag. 23. Pigghius, Sunt velut nasus cereus, The Scriptures are as a nose of waxe: Hierar: libr. 3. cap. 3. And that the children may fill vp the iniquitie of their fathers, of late this present yeere 1602. in a certaine colloquie at Ratisbone betweene the Diuines of Witemberge, and certaine Iesuites: one Iacobus Gretserus a Iesuite vttered this horrible blasphemie of the Scriptures:A great blasphemie against the spirit of God and the Scriptures. Spiritum sanctum per scripturas loquentem non posse esse indicem controuersiarum: That the spirit of God speaking by the Scripture, can not be iudge of controuersies. And added further: St potest me spiritus sanctus condemnare p. 60per hanc scripturam, age faciat, veniat, & dicat, Iacobe Gretsere tu erras, & statim transibo ad scamnum vestrum: If the spirit of God can condemne me by this scripture, goe to, let him come, and say, thou Iacob Gretsere art in an error, and I will straight way go vntounto your side: ex Egid. Hunnio. If the Lord were not a most gracious and long suffering God, wee might wonder, how such blasphemers could goe vnpunished. Gods bountifulnes (as the Apostle saith, Rom. 2. 4.) leadeth them to repentance: which God send them, if they belong vntounto him, that they may repent them of their blasphemies toward God, and their slaunders against men: otherwise their iudgement sleepeth not, but shall be reuealed in time. For as Ambrose saith: Si pro otioso verbo ratio poscitur, quanto magis pro sermone impietatis poena exoluitur: If account shall be rendred for an idle word, how much more for wicked speech shall punishment be inflicted? Bias said to a certaine lewd man, He feared foreign.not least he should not be punished, but least he should not see it. But wee, as we feare their punishment in the end; so wee desire not to see it, but pray for their repentance and amendment.

The 2. Contradiction.

SYnops. p. 263. it is affirmed, that mariage was lawfull for all men, vntill Pope Nicholas p. 61the 2. and yet in the same page it is said, that Gregorie the 1. inioyned his Clergie to liue single: and pag. 266. the iniunction of single life first proceeded from Siricius: which two were long before Nicholas 2. Alexander 2. or Gregorie the 7. who began by publike decree to restraine Ministers mariage.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, here is no contradiction at all, if these words may finde a fauourable interpreter: for notwithstanding that diuers decrees were made before to restraine Ministers mariage, and some attempted to impose single life, yet till a thousand yeeres after Christ, there was not a generall and constant restraint of such mariage.

1. Siricius indeede began first to inhibite the mariage of Priests, about anno 428. yet after him succeeded Siluerius sonne of Hormisda, who was also Bishop of Rome ann. 534 ex Caranz. Concil. summ.

2. Before this in the Nicene Councell they would hauehave inioyned single life to the Clergie, but that by the wise aduice of Paphnutius the Synode altred their minds. Sozomen. lib. 1. c. 11. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 11.

3. Gregorie 1. though at the first hee liked well of single life, yet seeing the inconuenience thereof, when in his mote or pond many p. 62childrens heads were found, he then altering his minde, confessed with S. Paul, that it was better to marrie then to burne: ex epistol. Hulderic. ad Nicolaum Papam. This Gregorie Gratian. distinct. 56. cap. 2. Caranza.liued anno 603. yet after him anno 636. came Theodorus Bishop of Rome the sonne of Theodorus a Bishop: so that wee see that all this while, the restraint of Clergiemens mariage was not receiued generally as a law, necessarily to bind, till the time before expressed.

Secondly, whereas the Councell of Neocesaria and second of Carthage are obiected, that forbid the mariage of Ministers: I answere, that sometime it was decreed against, and sometime decreed with: as Concil. Ancyran. can. 10. Gangrens. c. 4. which see at large, Synops. pag. 265. and that all degrees of the Clergie might take them wines, vntill this generall restraint, it is there further declared p. 269. to the which places I referre the Reader. Neither neede I to spend much time in …ifting the authorities of Councels, hauing to deale with a man vtterly ignorant in them, which receiueth thē but at the second hand: as it may appeare for that, whereas the 37. canon of the Africane Councel, is thus translated: Placuit Episcopos, &c. vxoribus abstinere: It pleaseth vsus, that Bishoppes, Priests, Deacons abstaine from their wiues: he chargeth the translator very simplie and ignorantly with corruption, because he …aith their p. 63wiues: for it is euident that this Canon inioyneth abstinence from their owne wiues, as it may appeare by the 5. Carthage Councel 3. from whence this Canon is taken word forword, as it is alleaged by Gratian. dist. 85. cap. 4. Cum de quorundam Clericorum quamuis erga vxores proprias incontinentia referatur: For as much as report is made to vsus of the incontinencie of Clergy men though toward their owne wiues. Then followe the very same words; It pleaseth vsus, that Bishops &c. abstaine from their wiues: for whose wiues I pray you doth the Councell meane but their owne?

Thirdly, the Libeller, because Pope Gregorie the 7. is said to be a notable sorcerer and adulterer, chargeth him, that so writeth, to be a notable lier: and further saith, that generallie all the historiographers of that time, did highly commend him: as Anselmus, Marianus Scotus, Guitmundus, &c.

Contrà. What two or three which were partially affected to the Pope, might write inGregorie the 7. no good man. praise of him, it is not much to be weighed: for these three, that are said to witnesse with him (and yet are they but dumbe witnesses, speaking nothing, but onelyonly named) we can produce thrice three, that discommend him. Sabellicus and Blondus doe describe his great in…olencie, when he suffered the Emperour in hard frost, with bare legges to waite at his gate three daies, Sab ellic. Enead. 9. lib. 3. Blond. p. 64decad. 2. lib. 3. Benno Cardinall saith, he poysoned sixe Popes, that hee was a Coniurer, a raiser of Diuels, and in his rage cast the Sacrament into the fire. Anselmus Rid, whom we set against your Anselme, noteth his sedition, saying, that in the time of his Popedome, both the temporall and Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction was shaken and broken, with infinit miseries.

Sigebertus Gemblacens. saith, that he troubled the states of Christendome, discharged the subiects from their oth of fealtie: Sigeber. anno 1074.

Lambertus Scaphnaburg. reporteth, that the Clergie held him to be an heretike, & vesani dogmatis, and of wicked doctrine.

Nauclerus: The Clergie said, that hee had defiled the See Apostolike with Simonie, Heresie, Murder, Adulterie, that he was an Apostata: Naucler. general. 26. The Councell of Brixia called him, a disturber of the Empire, a subuerter of the Church: Vrspergens. anno 1082. The Councell of Wormes, that he was spotted with many periuries. Yea, what neede we any other witnesse, when hee confessed to one of his Cardinals in his sicknesse, that he had fouly abused his pastorall office, that hee had troubled mankind with malice and mischiefe by the procurement and counsell of the Diuell: Sigebert. anno 1085.

If then a murderer, adulterer, sorcerer, heretike, Apostata, if a seditious, periured person p. 65bee a good man, then may you count Pope Hildebrand in the number. Now wee may see how shamelesse these men are, to call so euident an historie a lie: and to count a wicked man holie and blessed, not remembring how the Prophet crieth woe against those, that speake good of euill, and euill of good.Esay. 5. 20.Isa 5:20

Fourthly, with the like boldnes he calleth that of Gregorie a fabulous tale, that 6000. childrens heads were found in his fishpond or mote, pag. 160. yet it is extant in the epistle of Huldericus Bishop of Augusta, sent to Pope Nicolas 2. which epistle is alleaged by Aeneas Syluius, who was afterward Bishop of Rome: in descript. German. The same epistle written in parchment, in an old hand, of good record, Bishop …ewel of worthie memorie testifieth, that he had seene, defens. Apolog. pag. 237. and Master Fox also that painfull and godly man saith, he had seene an old copie of the said epistle sent by master Bale to the Bishop of Canterburie, Fox pag. 1154. Of the said epistle also Illyric. maketh mention, in Catalog. and Melancthon lib. 1. de coniug. And yet for all this the Libeller would beare vsus in hand, that the epistle is forged, and the rest but a tale.

Lastly, that Hildebrand and his fellowe Popes about that time did first make a generall restraint of Priests mariage, when mariage began by a publike law to bee restrained, p. 66it is euident out of Auentinus: hee condemned such as were maried for Nicolaitans, and directed his speciall letters to O. tho Bishop of Constance to separate such as were maried, and forbid the rest to marrie: but that good Bishoppe resisted the Popes proceedings and would not obey. And in the Councell of Brixia this is alleaged as one cause why they deposed Hildsbrand, for that he caused diuorcements and separations amongst the maried: ex Vrspergens. To say then, that mariage was first generally inhibited to the Clergie not till a thousand yeeres after Christ, and yet to grant that it might be for sometime restrained before, by particular acts of some persons and places, I hope is no contradiction: What cause then had this cauiller, to follow with open crie, a shamelesse vntruth, lies and mad trickes, when as more truly these opprobries doe rebound vponupon his owne head? I may liken him to the Lamia in Plutarch, that is fained to sit blind at home,Libr. de curiositat. laying aside her eyes into some corner, and putting of them on againe when she goeth foorth: so plaieth this companion, he is sharp sighted abroad in looking vponupon other, and blind in his owne house, he cannot see himselfe. Hierome could hauehave told him: Non facilis est venia praua dixisse de rectis: It is not a fault easily pardoned to speake euill of the right. Hieron. Asellae.

p. 67The 3. Contradiction.

BEcause pag: 63. it is sayd, Telesphorus brought in the Lenten fast, Calixtus Ember fasts, Hyginus Chrisme, that liued some 14. or 15. hundred yeere agoe: and yet before, these are called erronious and hereticall opinions.

The Reconciliation.

THe occasion of these words is to be considered, which was to answer Bellarmine and the Rhemists challenge that the authors and beginners of their religion cannot be shewed, as they can produce the authors of ours: whereupon, it is declared out of their Popes decrees, who were the authors of some of their erronious vsages: as Telesphorus, Calixtus, Hyginus brought in Lent, Ember fasts, Chrisme: which is affirmed, not ex sententia scriptoris, of the sentence of the writer, but ex confessione aduersarij, by the confession of the aduersarie: for they themselues doe ascribe the beginning of these vsages to these ancient Bishops, which their confession, is a good argument against themselues. And that this is the writers meaning, it is euident, by comparing with this place, that which is handled of this matter in Tetrastyl. pill. 1. part. 3. where all these decrees of Telesphorus, p. 68Hyginus, Calixtus are prooued to be forged. Telesphorus decree beareth date, when Antoninus and Marcus were Consuls, who were neuer together in that office. Hyginus epistles are dated, when Camerinus and Magnus were Consuls, which was neuer. Calixtus 2. epistle cōfuteth the error of Nouatus, that did spring vp long after. Other reasons are there shewed, why the decrees which goe vnderunder their name are thought not to bee theirs: loc. 15. 16. 21.

Thus then is this contradiction healed, that notwithstanding any thing here said: these may be erronious vsages, for all these forged authors: whom although you alleage as patroues of great antiquitie, yet we think your superstitious obseruations are nothing so ancient, and confesse with D. Sutclife: We shall not finde, where the Church of Christ hath enioyned Christians to fast Lent, and Ember daies, and vigils of Saints: which the Libeller noteth pag. 24. as an apparant difference betweene that learned writer, and the other whom he impugneth.

I say then to this brabler, as Eudamidas to a certaine Fidler: Magnus delinitor in re exigua: foreign.He made a great piece of worke of nothing. So hath this Carper fidled vntounto vsus with a lowd sound a matter not worth the whistling: he should hauehave done much better to hauehave followed Ambrose counsell; Solliciti p. 69esse debemus, ne quid temere vel incuriosè geramus, aut quicquam cuius non possimus probabilem reddere rationem: actus enim nostri causa, etsi non omnibus redditur, ab omnibus tamen examinatur: We must be carefull, that wee doe nothing rashly or carelesly, whereof wee can not giuegive a probable reason: the cause of our acts, though it be not rendred to all, yet it is examined of all: lib. offic. 1. cap. 47.

The 4. Contradiction.

SYnops. 70. Is it not a substantiall point and belonging to the faith to know which bookes are Canonicall, which are not, pag. 56. to know eueryevery particular booke of Scripture to be Canonicall, is not simplie necessarie to saluation. These speeches are noted to be contradictorie.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, whereas Bellarmine saith, that they dissent not among themselues in any materiall points, or such things as appertaine to faith, and it is answered, I marueile he blusheth not thus to say, himselfe knowing the contrarie: then it followeth, is it not a substantiall point, &c. Who seeth not that here he appealeth to Bellarmines knowledge, who doth affirme elswhere this a thing necessarie to bee knowne, what bookes of Scriptures are canonicall p. 70in particular: as libr. 4. de verbo Dei cap. 4. to proue traditions beside Scripture to be necessarie, hee bringeth this argument in the third place: Tertia probatur ex multis, quae ignorari non possunt, & tamen in scripturis non continentur: Thirdly this is proued, because many things, which wee cannot be ignorant of, are not contained in the Scripture. And it followeth afterward: Non satis est scire esse scripturam sanctam, sed oportet scire, quae sit illa: It is not enough to know that there is holie Scripture, but we must know which it is. SoHow it is necessarie … saluation to know the canonicall scriptures. then Bellarmine doth hold it a thing necessarie, to know which bookes are Scripture: but therein they disagree among themselues: Ergo, they dissent in necessarie points. So that in saying, is it not a substantiall point, and belonging to faith to know which bookes are canonicall? there is relation to Bellarmines knowledge and confession: for that which is necessarie to be knowne, is (I thinke) a materiall point, substantiall, and belonging to faith.

Secondly: neither is there any contradiction in these words, of themselues: for to know which are the canonicall bookes, may be held to be a substantial point and belonging to the faith, and yet not simply necessarie to saluation: he knoweth little if hee cannot distinguish betweene a simple and absolute necessitie, and a necessitie not absolute: as some things are absolutely necessarie to saluation, p. 71without the which a man cannot be saued: as Hebr. 10. 36. Patientia vobis necessaria: Patience is necessarie vntounto you, that after ye hauehave done the will of God, you may receiue the promise. But in another sense the Apostles write, Act. 15. 28. It seemed good, &c. to lay no more burthen vponupon you, then these necessarie things: yet was it not simply necessarie to abstaine from bloud and things strangled, but conuenient, and profitable for that time, because of offence: so to know which bookes are canonicall, though it be not simplie necessarie to saluation, if a man hold the foundation: yet is it necessarie, as a profitable meane for the increase of faith: and though it be not so substantiall as the foundation of faith, yet is it substantiall, as many necessarie parts in an house are beside the foundation. I may say now to our cauilling aduersarie, that triumpheth in his contradictions, as Archidamus the Lacedemonian said to his son boldly aduenturing to fight: Aut viribus adde, foreign.vel de animi elatione aliquid detrahe: Either put to more strength, or abate of your courage: So seeing the Cauillers obiections are no stronger, hee should doe well not to be so confident. As for my selfe, I say with Hierome: Non de aduersario victoriam, sed contra mendacem quaerimus victoriam: I seeke not so much for victorie of an aduersarie, as for the veritie against a lier: Hier. Augustin.

p. 72The 5. Contradiction.

BEcause it is said, that Luther was an excellent instrument stirred vp of God to set forth his truth, Sy nops. pag. 620. and yet it is confessed, that he erred in diuers points, as concerning penance, and the Reall presence, &c.

The Reconciliation.

SIr Cauiller, your collection is very weak: May not a man be a profitable instrument in Christs Church, though hee holde some erronious opinions? Tertullian fauoured the heresie of the Montanists in condemning of second mariage. Cyprian and Dionysius Alexandrinus did hold, that they which were baptized of heretikes, should be baptized againe: Hieron. catal. scriptor. Papias, Irenaeus, Victorinus, Apollinarius, Lactantius, were all Chiliastes: they did hold, that the faithfull shuld raigne with Christ vponupon the earth a thousand yeeres after the resurrection.

Many grosse errors are ascribed to Origen, The Fathers profitable instruments notwithstanding some errorsas that he should hold that in the end the diuels should be saued: that men were elected according to the merits of their soules, in a former life, before they came into their bodies: that the torments of hell consist onelyonly in the conscience of sinne: that there was p. 73another world before this: that Christ for the saluation of Diuels should suffer in the ayre, &c. These and many such grosse opinions Hierome ascribeth to Origen. ad Auitum, whether they be true or false of him, it is now impertinent to dispute.

Few of the Fathers beside can be named, but they had their speciall errors: will you therefore conclude (Sir Sophister) that these learned Fathers were not excellent instruments in their times? For notwithstanding Luther might in some things bee deceiued, (whose opinions I will neither now iustifie nor impleade, but onelyonly touch your contradiction) yet was he a very excellent and profitable member of Christs Church.

But whereas you scornefully come in with your, what if, as though master Fox were belied, or that Master Fox played some craftie tricke: and you will giuegive more credit to Roffensis, and Bellarmine for reporting of Luthers opinion? Here whether you shew more ignorāce, or malice with boldnes (Sir Controller) I cannot say: for master Fox is truly alleaged, and he truly citeth Luthers opinions, as they were condemned by Pope Leo vnderunder his bul: and this to be one, that where a Priest cannot be had, eueryevery Christian man or woman standeth in as good steed: Fox. pag. 1281. col. 2. artic. 13. he maketh no mention of boyes, as your Bellarmine saith. Now (my friend) I would think p. 74that your holie father Pope Leo in his bull, should bee of better credit with you, then Cardinall Bellarmine in his booke: you vrge me to say vntounto you as Hierome against Ru…in. Quid est, quod de ore illo tuo pudentissimo non exeat, video te frontem ferream possidere: What will not that shamelesse mouth of you… vtter; I see you hauehave a brasen forehead? Whom I may compare to that Merchant of Ch…s in Plutarke, de animi tranquillit. who sold eueryevery man good wine, and kept the sower to himselfe, of whom his seruants said: Our master, bonis praesentibus malis vtitur: when he may vse foreign.good things, doth chuse the euill▪ So doth this Carper omit the best and take the worst, hee changeth good things for euill words.

The 6. Contradiction.

SYnops. pag. 648. it is vntrue, that auricular confession hath been of ancient time vsed in the Church: in Chrysostomes time it was not: and pag. 650. it was priuate confession, which was by Nectarius abrogated, to the which Chrysostome agreed. Hence it is gathered, that auricular confession was in vse in Nectarius time, for otherwise hee could not hauehave abrogated it: how then is it not ancient? &c.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, it followeth not, if some kinde of priuate confession were vsed in the time of p. 75Nectarius, that therfore it was the popish auricular confession, which was brought in by Innocentius the 3: whereby eueryevery one was bound to confesse to the Priest, omnia peccata, all their sinnes, and that vnderunder paine of excommunication while they liued, and to be depriued of Christian buriall when they were dead: Decret. Gregor. lib. 5. tit. 38. c. 12. Such auricular and particular confession of all sinnes we denie to hauehave been vsed in any ancient time.

They confessed priuately such sinnes as were notorious and troubled the conscience: which kind of confession, if it be not turned to an abuse, as then it was, wee mislike not, but wish it might be practised.

Secondly, the taking away of priuate confession by Nectarius, sheweth an old abuseAuricular confession of no great antiquitie. of it: that when it began to degenerate and grow vntounto inconuenience, then was it abrogated: what contradiction then is there to say, that auricular confession was not vsed of ancient time, and that priuate confession was abused in former time and so abrogated? or what doe you gaine by this, if ye can shew your auricular confession to hauehave been condemned and abrogated a thousand yeeres and more since: it is not enough to alleage antiquitie, but to shew the allowance of antiquitie.

Now where you say it is a lie, that Nectarius p. 76abrogated priuate confession, as you enter not into that discourse, being as is most like somewhat beyond your reach: so I doe referre the Reader for our further answere, to y^• which is at large handled hereof Synops. pag. 649. sure it is that priuate confession after that was not vsed in the Greek Church, if your owne decree be true: Caus. 33. distin. 1. cap. 9. Some doe say that we must confesse only to God, vt Graeci, as the Grecians. It was indeede the vse of the Heathen priests to vrge confession: as the priest required of Antalcidas, what euill he had done, and he answered: If I hauehave done any such thing, the Gods know. As for your lies and other railing speeches, were passe not for them, they shew your weaknes, they hurt not him whom you shoote at. Alcibiades biting his hand, that he wrestled with, and being asked if he did bite as women: noforeign. saith he, but as lions: but this backbiter as a woman muttereth in corners, not as a manly lion shewing himselfe face to face. I wish him no more hurt, then that hee had followed Hieromes aduice: Faciam ne dum volo alium notare culpae, ipse noter calumniae: I will take heede, lest while I am a fault finder of others, I be not found my selfe to be a cauiller.

The 7. Contradiction.

HEre there is both a contradiction noted,1. because Synops. pag. 715. it is affirmed, p. 77that Siluester, as Damasus reporteth, was the deu…ser of Chrisme, and yet pag. 63. Hyginus (who liued straight after the Apostles) is said to hauehave brought in Chrisme.

Likewise an vntruth is obiected, that Siluester 2should ordaine Chrisme, because Cornelius before that maketh mention of it.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst: 1. If either it be answered, that Hyginus brought in Chrisme in Confirmation, and Siluester ordained Chrisme in Baptisme: 2. or that Hyginus is alleaged as the author of Chrisme by the confession of the aduersarie, as is before shewed, Siluester in our opinion as more likely: 3. or that, Siluester was the first, that made a publike decree and ordinance of Chrisme, which might be in vse before, though not by like authoritie: Any of these answers may serue to reconcile these two places obiected, whereof wee most approue the second and the third.

Secondly: But Siluester (you say) is not reported by Damasus to hauehave been the deuiser of Chrisme, but did ordaine onelyonly, that such as were baptized, should be annointed with Chrisme on the top of the head.

Contrà. 1. Well then, ye graunt vsus, that Siluester brought in Chrisme in Baptisme: it followeth, that it is no Apostolical institutiō.

p. 782. Siluester then was the first, by your confession, that made Chrisme a member or part of the Sacrament of Baptisme: others made mention of Chrisme before, but not of the Sacrament of Chrisme: as Bellarmine himselfe confesseth, that those testimonies, which hee boroweth from the Bishops of Rome, as from Clemens, Cornelius, Fabianus, non disertis verbis affirmant confirmationem esse sacramentum, do not directly affirme confirmation to be a Sacrament: de Sacrament confirmat. lib. 2. c. 3.

3. Cornelius, as he is alleaged out of Eusebius, reprooued Nouatus for that after Baptisme hee receiued not Chrisme: which was a ceremonie and complement of baptisme, omitted at that time, because Nouatus was baptized in his bed being at the point of death. If Cornelius then required Chrisme to be annexed to Baptisme, I pray you how did Siluester ordaine Chrisme first to be vsed in Baptisme? I would hauehave you salue vp this contradiction betweene them, before you picke quarrels with vsus.

4. You hauehave testimonies no lesse ancient for the proofe of Chrisme: which because you produce not, I wil helpe you with one out of Fabianus second Decretal epistle. In illa die Dominus Iesus postquam coenauit cum discipulis, sicut à sanctis Apostolis praedecessores nostri acceperunt, Chrisma conficere docuit: In the same day, after our Lord Iesus had supped with his p. 69Disciples, as our predecessors receiued of the Apostles, taught how to make Chrisme. If you speake of lies, here is a lusty one, that our Sauiour Christ taught his Apostles to make Chrisme. I marueile you did not cite this epistle of Fabians, as you did that of Cornelius to another Fabian: but I more marueile why Bellarmine omitteth it: you might misse it of ignorance, but I thinke he was ashamed to alleage so grosse and counterfeited authoritie.

Now as for your Cuckow song, in crying nothing but lies, lies, we rebound them vponupon your owne head, and cast your dirt vponupon your owne face. I may well compare you, as Themistocles did the Eretrians to the fishforeign. called Teuthis, that hath a long bone like a sword, but no heart: so you dart forth words like swords, but there is no heart, that is, truth or substance in them. God forgiue you, and make you an honest man. I say with Ruffinus: Jnuectiu. Ruffin.Demus veniam ei, qui veniam dare nescit, imitemur Dauid qui comprehensum in spelunca inimicum suum Saulum cum iugulare potuit noluit, &c. Let vsus forgiue him, that knoweth not how to forgiue, and imitate Dauid, who when he might would not kill Saul taken in the caue.

The 8. Contradiction.

SYnops. Epist. Dedicat. to the fourth book: reason, scripture, antiquitie, make against p. 80them, &c. yet the Libeller will prooue by our owne confession, that antiquitie maketh for them against vsus. pag. 173.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, Caluine (saith the Libeller) graunteth that antiquitie in diuers questions beleeued as they do: Luther refuseth diuers of the Fathers, as Basile, Hierome, and saith that the Diuell did grossely deceiue Gregorie in his Dialogues.

Contrà. 1. Is not this well reasoned of this skilfull Logician? the Fathers in some small matters held as the Church of Rome doth, as in the ceremonies of Baptisme, prayer for the dead, reseruing of the Sacrament: Ergo, generally, and in the maine points of controuersie, as for the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome, transubstantiation, adoration of images, sacrifice of the Masse and such like, they are all with them.

2. And is Luther such an eye sore vntounto you, because he sometimes refuseth, one, two or three of the Fathers? doth hee or wee any otherwise, then the Fathers themselues? Saith not Hierome? Scio aliter me habere Apostolos, aliter reliquos tractatores, illos semper vera dicere, istos vt homines in quibusdam aberrare: I make not like account of the Apostles and other writers: I hold that they alwaies speak p. 81the trueth, the other as men in some things may be deceiued: ad Theophil. aduers. Ioann. Hierosol.

Doe not popish writers take vntounto themseluesThe Fathers refused of popish writers the like libertie? Harding refuseth Tertullian and Cyprian: Turrian reiecteth Chrysostome: Arthurus Hierome: Bellarmine Augustine in diuers places, and Hilarius, Hippolytus, Apollinarius: See Tetrasty l. p. 142. 143. Bellarmine saith of Sozomene: Eum multa esse mentitum, that he lied in many things, libr. 3. de poeniten. cap. 14. Doth not the libeller himselfe grant as much? We admit not the authoritie of one, two or three ancient and holie fathers dissenting from the rest. pag. 133.

3. But you thinke hardly, that Luther should so speake of Gregories Dialogues: he might well so doe because it is a booke full of fables and lies, whereof the diuell is the author; neither was it euer written by Gregorie: for this Dialogue maketh mention of purgatorie fire, lib. 4. dialog. cap. 39. whereas Gregorie holdeth but two places after this life, libr. 8. moral. cap. 8. in these words: Whether a good spirit or euill doe receiue the soule going out of the prison of the flesh; it shall keepe it secum in aeternum, for euer with it, without any chaunge: from whence being exalted, it shall not be cast downe to punishment, nor being drenched in eternall punishment shall ascend, &c.

Hierome himselfe that learned father speaketh p. 66as hardly of one, against whom hee had no greater cause: Portat nequaquam vexillum Christi, sed insigne diaboli: He beareth not the banner of Christ, but the ensigne of the diuell, aduers. Vigilant. Yet I excuse not, whatsoeuer in the heate of affection, might drop from Luthers pen.

4. But is not this a good argument, Caluine, Luther, sometime refuse the Fathers: Ergo, the writer of SYNOPSIS speaketh contraries?

Secondly, saith the Libeller, Bellarmine in diuers controuersies plentifully citeth the fathers: as in the controuersies of inuocation of Saints, Pilgrimage, Purgatorie, vntounto the which there is no answere at all but silence, as Baal answered his suppliant seruants, which bewraieth the insufficiencie of his booke, and manifestly proclaimeth antiquitie on our side. pag. 175. 176.

Contrà. 1. The writer of SYNOPSIS intending the profit not of the learned, but of others, thought it not so necessarie to handle at large the testimonies of the Fathers alleaged by the aduersarie: 1. Because the booke would hauehave growne by this means to a greater volume, then was fit for eueryevery mans leasure to reade, or their abilitie to reach. 2. The treatise being in English, to what purpose should Bellarmines quotations be produced in that language, which the aduersary vnderstood p. 83not, and so could not make answere? 3. There be others that hauehave happily vndertaken that enterprise, as that learned man, whom the Libeller in his first part traduceth, that Bellarmine shall not want worke. 4. As Bellarmines authorities are omitted, except in some principal controuersies; so neither on the other side are our antiquities produced, in such number, as the writer out of his owne readings could hauehave alleaged, otherwise then of their owne testimonies, out of their Canons, and writers specially vrged against themselues, and turned vppon their owne heads. 5. The speciall grounds both to confirme the trueth, and conuince error in eueryevery controuersie, are to be taken from the Scriptures, which hee thought most profitable for the instruction of the Reader, and such places out of the Prophets and Apostles are specially and principally handled: wherein hee followeth Hieromes aduise to Pammach. Simplices epistolae tuae olent Prophetas, Apostolos sapiunt, non cothurnatam affectas eloquentiam, nec more puerorum argutas sententiolas in clausulis struis: Your epistles are plaine, smelling of the Prophets, sauouring of the Apostles, you affect not curious eloquence, nor as children hunt after sentences.

2. Bellarmine in deede maketh great shew of antiquitie, but most of his ancient testimonies, are either out of forged authors, or p. 82els impertinently alleaged, or by him corrupted and falsified: as, to giuegive one instance for many, his dealing in the controuersie of purgatorie euidently sheweth.

First, the constitutions of Clemens, Dionysius de ecclesiastic. Hierarch. Athanasius questions ad Antiochiam, Gregories Dialogues, the Liturgie of Basil, Testament of Ephrem, are all bastard writings, which Bellarmine produceth as authenticall witnesses for Purgatorie.

Secondly, Gregorie Nazianzen, Eusebius, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, Theodoret, Theophylact, Damascene, are impertinently cited for Purgatorie: who indeed make mention of praier for the dead, but hauehave no one word of Purgatorie, neither doth the Greeke Church beleeue that there is any purgatorie fire: prooem. ad concil. Florentin.

Tertullian likewise, Cyprian, Ambrose, Hierome, are brought in to bee of the Iurie for purgatorie, but they do not so much as mention it: who so list to take view of their testimonies, as they are cited by Bellarm. libr. 1. de purg. cap. 6.

Thirdly, Bellarmine is found to be a falsifier, as Bracarens. concil. 1. can. 39. these words are added of his owne, vt oraretur pro defunctis, that praier should be made for the dead. Likewise Concil. 6. sub Symmacho, these words are foisted in by Bellarmine: Sacrilegium esse p. 83fraudare defunctorum animas orationibus: That it is sacriledge to defraude the soules of the dead of prayer, the Councell saith only, it is sacrilege, oblationes defunctorū ecclesiae auferre, to take away the oblations of the dead from the Church, and conuert them to other vses. Wormatiens. c. 10. is falsely alleaged: Pro suspensis in patibulo esse sacrificandum: That they must sacrifice for those that are hanged: or els he had some new copie of his owne which he followed. By these particular instances it may appeare, what fidelitie Bellarmine hath vsed in other controuersies, and how well antiquitie standeth of his side.

3. Whereas it is alleaged that inuocation of Saints is prooued by Bellarmine by the Councel of Chalcedon, confirmed by act of parliament, Libel. pag. 175. as though now by the lawes of this land it were lawfull to pray to Saints. Our answere is, that in deede the Church of England alloweth the decrees of the Chalcedon, and of the other three generall Councels concerning the faith, and their condemnation of the heresies of Arrius in the Nicen, of Macedonius in the first Constantinop. Nestorius in the Ephesine, Eutyches in the Chalcedon: but all the acts of this Councell for other matters it receiueth not. 2. Neither is there any Canon or decree in this Councel extant of inuocation of Saints: for that which Bellarmine bringeth, is taken p. 86out of the colloquies and conferences, and postscripts of the Councell, not from the authoritie of any Canon, or determination thereof. 3. That which hee hath of the intercession of Proterius, and of Flauianus: Flauianus post mortem viuit, martyr pro nobis oret: Flauianus liueth after death, let the Martyr pray for vsus: doth shew the opinion which they had that the Saints prayed for them: which is another question. Neither doth it follow, that, if it be graunted, that the Saints doe pray for vsus in generall, not knowing our particular necessities, not as mediators, but as fellow members wishing the perfection of the rest of the bodie, that therefore they should bee prayed vntounto: neither can it bee shewed that those Fathers made any supplication to those Saints, Sancte Proterie, sancte Flauiane &c. Holie▪ Proterius, holie Flauiane pray for vsus: which forme the Church of Rome now vseth. 4. Neither was this the voice of the whole Councell, but Episcopi & presbyteri Constantinopolitani clamauerunt, but the Bishops and priests of Constantinople so cried, act. 11. 5. And yet we denie not, but that in this time, which was almost fiue hundred yeeres after Christ, superstition began to set foote into the Church, and these opinions of intercession and inuocation of Saints to bee embraced, though not in such manner as the Church of Rome now holdeth. Neither doe p. 87we stand so much vponupon this, what any Fathers of the Church either a part, or assembled together did hold, as vponupon what ground of Scripture their opinion was founded.

4. But as for Baals answere, Baals shauen priests hauehave better experience thereof, that worship stockes and stones, then they which detest all such abominations. As Baal was dumbe and mute, when his priests called vntounto him, so are popish Images, when they are prayed vntounto: for they can doe neither good nor euill, as the Prophet saith, Esay. 41. 23. Xenophanes wittily derided the like follie in the superstitious Aegyptians, that in their solemneWhere are▪ Baals priests. sacrifices vsed to howle and crie: They are either Gods, then mourne not for them; or men, then doe not sacrifice vntounto them. And a certaine Lace demonian to him that made collection for the Idol-temples, made this present answere: Non curo Deos me pauperiores: I care not for such beggerly Gods, that are poorer then I. Such are popish images, which of other mens purses are decked and adorned with gold: Such beggerly images, in poperie, vse to giuegive Baals answere to their miserable suppliants: which is fit enough for Baals priests, that marke and disfigure themselues with shauing and cutting, a notable badge of their hypocrisie. As Philip said to one thatforeign. misused his haire: Non posse esse fidelem in negotijs, qui mala fide tractaret crines: That hee p. 88could not be faithfull in his labour, that was vnfaithfull to his lockes.

Thirdly, the Libeller would shew vsus to be enemies to antiquitie, because it is called, the vaine shew of mothworne antiquitie: and the1 vulgar Latine translation of the Bible partly done by Hierome, partly corrected by him,2 partly receiued from another most ancient edition commended by Augustine, is termed an old blind Latine translation: and the auncient Fathers, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Ambrose, 3Augustine should bee called Heretikes, because they held that Antichrist should come of the tribe of Dan. Libel. pag. 177.

Contrà. True antiquitie is not called mothworne, 1but that shew of antiquitie, which Bellarmine pretendeth to prooue the name and office of Cardinals, is so called; because like as a garment eaten with moths, hath nothing to commend it, but the oldnes thereof: so are his allegations borne out onelyonly with the name and shew of antiquitie. For that alleaged out of the Romane Councell vnderunder Siluester can. 6. sheweth neither the name of Cardinals appropriate to the Church of Rome, nor yet their office, which is to elect the Pope: The Canon onelyonly saith, that there should be seuen Cardinals in Rome, because the Citie was deuided into seuen regions: and eueryevery one should be a principall ouerseer of his quarter. This prooueth not that p. 89there were Cardinals only in Rome: but the principall Ministers of other Churches were so called, as at Naples, distinct. 71. c. 5. at Syracuse, distinct. 74. c. 6. And as for the office of Cardinals in electing the Pope, Bellarmine confesseth it is but of foure hundred yeeres continuance, lib. 1. de Cleric. c. 9.

Neither is the vulgar Latine translation2 of Hieromes doing, as thinketh Sanctis Pagninus in praefat. ad Clem. 7. and Driedo lib. 2. c. 1.The vulgar Latine not Hieromes translation. de catalog. scriptur. neither is it that translation of Italie, which Augustine commendeth lib. 2. de doct. Christian. c. 15. not. c. 4. as is erroniously noted in the margin: for Augustine followeth that translation which is much differing from the vulgar Latine now vsed. But that it is an old blind translation, it may euidently appeare to him that will take but a little paine to compare it with the originall: as Genes. 3. 15. for (it) shall break thine head, the Latine hath, ipsa, she, referring it to the woman. Genes. 8. 4. for the seuenteenth day of the monethmonth, they reade seuen and twentie. Genes. 19. 18. for, not so I pray thee, the Latine hath, so I pray thee: leauing out, not. Genesis 24. 22. two sickles, for halfe a sickle. Gen. 36. 24. Aanh found out mules: hote waters, saith the Latine. Genes. 37. 2. Ioseph was septendecim annorum, seuenteene yeere old: sedecim, 16. yeere old, say they. Diuers hundred of such places might bee gathered both out of the p. 94old and new Testament, to shew the corruption of the vulgar Latine translation. See more here of Synops. pag. 21.

3. It is vntrue, that the Fathers are called, Heretikes: for none of them are named: but these are the words: It is a very fable and cousoning deuice of heretikes to make men beleeue, that Antichrist shall come of the tribe of Dan: where the Fathers are not noted, who held it as a probable opinion in their time, before Antichrist was reucaled: but the Papists, the Heretikes of these daies, who now in the manifestation of Antichrist, would blind peoples eyes, that they should not see him in his colours. Neither is it here assumed, that they are heretikes for this opinion, or that it is heresie simply to thinke that Antichrist shall come of Dan: but they which in other opinions maintaine open heresie, doe herein also vse a point of cousonage to deceiue the people. Ambrose concerning the comming of Antichrist, thus saith, The Lord shall not come before there be a defection of the Romane Empire, & appareat Antichristus, qui interficiet sanctos, reddita Romanis libertate, sub suo tamen nomine: and Antichrist appeare, which shall kill the Saints, restoring libertie to the Romanes, but vnderunder his owne name: in 2. Thess. cap. 2. Here hee deliuereth foure markes of Antichrist, which all agree to the Bishop of Rome: first, the maiestie and authoritie of p. 75the Empire is decaied. Secondly, he hath killed and murthered the Saints. Thirdly, hee goeth about to maintaine the libertie and iurisdiction of Rome. Fourthly, and that vnderunder his owne name, for of the Pope they are all called Papists.

Now to make men beleeue, that the Pope is not Antichrist, but that there shall come one a little before the end of the world to be borne of the Iewes, that shall conquer all the world, and worke wonders; what is it els but a cunning sleight of Sathan, and a cousoning tricke of his instruments to keep the people in suspence, and make them vnreadie for the comming of Christ? As Ruffinus thus saith, in Symbol. Scire debemus, quód salutarem Christi aduentū, conatur inimicus ad decipiendos fideles callida fraude simulare, & pro filio hominis qui expectatur venturus in maiestate, filium perditionis in signis mendacibus praeparare: We must know, that the enemie goeth about craftily to dissemble and colour the comming of Christ to deceiue the faithfull, and in steed of the sonne of man which is expected in maiestie, to prepare the sonne of perdition with lying signes and hypocrisie.

Fourthly, to prooue the popish religion grounded vponupon antiquitie, the Libeller giueth instance in diuers particulars. First, because Austin the Monke is affirmed in Gregorie the firsts time to be one of the Captaines p. 92and ringleaders of superstition, it is inferred that our land was first conuerted to the popish religion, a thousand yeeres agoe. p. 178.

Contrà. 1. Austin brought in some superstitious rites, which now the Romane church still retaineth: but yet the grossest points of Poperie, as of adoration of Images, transubstantiation, iustification by workes, and such other, are nothing so ancient. Neither neede it seeme strange, that some errors crept into the Church a thousand yeer since, seeing that the mysterie of iniquitie began to worke in the Apostles time, 2. Thessal. 2. 7. and 6. hundred yeeres after Christ, the Church began much to decline and degenerate.

2. Austin the Monke was not the first conuerter of the English nation: for in Hieromes time the Britaines had receiued the Gospell: De Hierosolymis, & de Britannia aequaliter patet aula calestis: Heauen is open as well in Britannie as at Ierusalem, Hieron. ad Paulin. And Origen aboue an hundred yeereAustin the Monke not the first conuerter of England before Hierome confesseth as much: Mortalium vniuersam naturam verbum peruicit, &c. nec humanum genus aliquod licet spectari, quod non huius susceperit disciplinam: The worde hath ouercome the nature of the vniuersall world, neither is there any kind of men to be seene, which hath not receiued the discipline thereof: lib. 2. cont. Celsum. This our countrie was then many hundred yeeres conuerted to p. 77the faith, before Austin was sent from Rome: And as it began in the holy Apostolike faith, so wee trust it shall make an end: and that faith which it receiued at Christs going out of the world, wee assuredly hope, through Gods merciemercy, that it shall render vntounto Christ at his comming againe to iudge the world.

2. Epiphanius and Augustine noted Aerius for an heretike, because he denied prayer and oblation for the dead.

Answ. 1. Because Augustine and Epiphanius so thought, doth it follow that all antiquitie is on your side, and that all the fathersAll the Fathers allow not prayer for the dead. so thought? Cyprian saith: Confiteantur singuli delictum suum, dum adhuc, qui deliquit, in seculo est; dum admitti cōfessio eius potest; dum satisfactio & remissio facta per sacerdotem apud Deum grata est: Confesse eueryevery man his sinne, while he, that hath sinned is in the world; while his confession may be admitted, while satisfaction and remssion done by the priest is gratefull vntounto God, serm. de lapsis. Ambrose saith: Mors deteriorem statum non facit, sed qualem in singulis inuenerit, talem iudicio futuro reseruat: Death maketh no mans state worse, but such as it findeth eueryevery man in, it reserueth to the iudgement to come, de bon. mort. cap. c. 4. Bernard vponupon these words Eccles. 11. 3. If the tree doth fall toward the South▪ or toward the North, where the tree falleth, there it shall be, thus writeth: Men are as trees, the tree is cut p. 94vp in death: which way soeuer it falleth, there it shall be: quia ibi te iudicabit Deus, vbi inuenerit, videat, quo casura sit, antequam cadat, quia postquam ceciderit, non adijciet vt resurgat, sed nec vt se vertat, &c. for God shall iudge thee there where he shall finde thee: let the tree looke which way it shall fall, before it doe fall: for after it be fallen, it shall no more rise, nor turne it selfe: Serm. paru. 49. If then the state of the dead cannot be altred, if they shall be iudged in that condition wherein they die, doth it not strongly follow, that it is in vaine to pray for the dead?

But what if Augustine himselfe sometimeAugustine against prayer for the dead. be of another minde, what is become then of your shew of antiquitie? as serm. 21. in Matth. Qualis quisque hinc exierit suo nouissimo die, talis inuenitur in seculi nouissimo die: nihil te adiuuabit quod hîc non feceris: vnumquemque opera sua iuuabunt, aut opera sua pressura sunt: Such as eueryevery man goeth hence in his last day, such shall he be found in the last day of the world: nothing shall helpe thee which thou hast not done here: eueryevery mans workes shall either helpe him, or cast him down. Then it followeth that prayer profi…eth not y^• dead, because it is not done by themselues. And y…t more euidently Serm. ad fratres in erem… 2. Si dicis, pro quo petere debeas, dico quod pro bene & male viuentibus, vt bonus perseueret, malus conuertatur, non pro sanctis, non pro damnatis, &c. If you p. 95say, for whom must I pray, I say for good and euill liuers, that the good may perseuere, the euill may bee conuerted, not for the Saints, not for the damned, &c. The author of these Sermons, maketh but two sorts of the dead after this life, the blessed and the damned, for both which it is in vaine to pray. It may bee obiected, that serm. 44. this author alloweth suffrages to be made for the dead. I answere, that that sermon is not like to be Augustines, because it disagreeth from him in other places: as cont. Pelag. artic. 5. Augustine maketh but two places after this life, heauen and hel: Tertium penitus ignoramus, immo nec esse in scripturis sanctis inuenimus: The third place we are ignorant of, nay we finde it not to be in the Scriptures.

Lastly, what if wee should yeeld you Epiphanius and Augustine for this opinion of prayer for the dead, will ye yeeld vsus them for the rest? Epiphanius directly condemneth the adoration of Images, epist. ad Ioann. Hierosoly, where seeing a painted cloath, habens imaginem tanquam Christi, hauing as it were the image of Christ, he commaunded it to be taken away, because he saw the image of a man hanging in the Church of Christ, against the authoritie of the Scripture. Augustine, against the carnall presence, the adoration of Images, the doctrine of merits, free will, and in an hundred points more, is wholy ours against p. 96the Papists. It were too long to giuegive a particular instance in them all in this place, I referre the Reader to the treatise of the controuersies.

3. Concerning Siricius and Gregories authorities for the inhibiting of mariage to the Clergie, I hauehave answered before, contradic. 2. and what the ancient Church did hold for the lawfulnes of the mariage of Ministers, it is shewed at large Synops. from pag. 262. to pag 269. Cyprian. lib. 4. epist. 10. maketh mentiō of one Numidicus a Presbyter, Qui vxorē Ministers maried in Origen & Cyprians time.concrematam, &c. adhaerentem lateri laetus aspexit, which cheerefully beheld his wife burning with him, and cleauing to his side. In Origens time Ministers were maried, and had children: Tract. 8. in Matth. Qui à Christianis parentibus enutriti sunt, &c. maxime si fuerint, ex patribus sacerdotali sede dignificatis, id est, Episcopatus, presoyteratus, aut diaconatus, ne glorientur: They which were brought vp of Christian parents, especially if they came of fathers dignified with the priestly seate, Bishops, Presbyters or Deacons, let them not boast. Hierome, that great commender of single life, maketh mention in his Catalog of Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus, who thus writeth in an epistle against Victor Bishop of Rome: Septem fuerunt propinqui mei episcopi, & ego octauus: Seuen of my kinred were Bishops before me, and I the eight. All these p. 97were long before Siricius and Gregorie. How say you now (Sir) is all antiquitie against the mariage of Ministers, or are you not proued a vaine boaster of antiquitie?

4. For the reuerencing of Reliques, praying to Saints, that it is not lawfull for Ecclesiasticall persons to marrie, that it is expedient for rich men to giuegive all their riches to the poore: they hauehave Hierome altogether on their side, who taught their faith, and wrote in defence thereof against Vigilantius. Libel. p. 18.

Contrà. 1. Whereas all these foresaid opinions are proued not to be erronious, both out of the Scriptures, and by the testimonie of Augustine, this answere is made, that Augustine is abused: but he sheweth not how, neither doth hee examine the authorities alleaged out of that father, Tetrastyl. pag. 100. pag. 101. whereby it may be gathered, that either those places were too euident to bee gainsaid, or without the compasse of this profound Clarkes reading: if hee had loosened the hold, which we hauehave of Augustine, in those places, wee would hauehave produced others to hauehave strengthened them, but now it shall not neede, where the aduersaries mouth is alreadie stopped. 2. Yet hee telleth vsus, that if wee can obtaine at their hands, that either Scripture or Augustine make for them, let Hierome a Gods name be reiected.

Why (Sir) till such time as you hauehave answered p. 98both Scripture and Augustine, which are there vrged in defence of these opinions, they doe make for vsus. But I thinke wee shall hardly obtaine so much at your hands: for you are a liberall gentleman, your manner is to graunt nothing, though neuer so euidently conuinced. Brutus was wont to say: Male is videtur florem aetatis collocasse, qui nihil negare auderet: He seemeth to hauehave bestowed his time euill, which durst denie nothing. But I thinke they hauehave bestowed it worse, that dare denie any thing. But what if Hierome be not so much your friend in these opinions, as you vaunt, where are you then? First, Hierome contendeth not against Vigilantius, for the adoration of Reliques, but forHierome would hauehave Saints reliques reuerenced, not adored. due reuerence to be giuen them: I am se intelliget Samaritanum & Iudaeum, qui corpora mortuorum pro immundis habet: He shall see that hee is no better then a Iew or Samaritane, which counteth the bodies of the dead vncleane. And againe, Nos non dico martyrum reliquias, sed ne solem quidem aut lunam, non angelos aut archangelos, &c. colimus & adoramus ne seruiamus creaturae potius quam creatori, &c. honoramus reliquias martyrum, &c. We, I say not the reliques of Martyrs, but we worship not or adore the Sunne or Moone, Angels or Archangels, least we should serue the creature rather then the Creator: but we honour the reliques of Martyrs, that wee may worship p. 99him, whose Martyrs they are: ad Riparium. What maketh this now for the Papists opinion, that doe not onelyonly honour and reuerence, but adore the reliques of Martyrs?

2. Neither is Hieromes opinion altogether currant for the inuocation of Saints: Quis enim ô insanum caput aliquando martyres adorauit? quis hominem putauit Deum? Who (O you madbraine) euer adored Martyrs? or tooke a man to be God? De Petro legimus quod Cornelium se adorare cupientem manu subleuauit & dixit, homo ego sum: We reade of Peter, that he lifted vp Cornelius, desirous to adore him, with his hand, and said, I am a man. If Martyrs and Saints are not to be adored, then not to be inuocated: for inuocation is a part of diuine adoration.

3. Concerning Ministers mariage, Hierome hath these words: Si Samuel nutritus in tabernaculo duxit vxorem, quid hoc ad praeiudicium virginitatis, quasi nō hodie quoque plurimi sacerdotes habeant matrimonia? & apostolus describat episcopum vnius vxoris virum, habentem filios cū omni castitate: If Samuel brought vp in the Tabernacle maried a wife, that is no preiudice to virginitie, as though many priests now a daies enioy not mariage? and the Apostle describeth a Bishop, the husband of one wife, hauing children with all chastitie.

4. Neither doth Hierome thinke it conuenient p. 100alwaies for a man to giuegive all his richesRich men not bound to giuegive all away. to the poore, but preferreth it only as a more perfect thing: as he saith thus to Vigilantius: Iste quem tu laudas, secundus & tertius gradus est, quem & nos recipimus, &c. This that you commend (that is, for a man to vse his riches) is the second and third degree, which we also receiue: so that wee know, that the first is to be preferred before the second and third. For otherwise Hierome should hauehave spoken against himselfe, who did not giuegive all away which he had: Quo labore, quo pretio, Barrabanum nocturnum habui praeceptorem? nostrum marsupium Alexandrinae chartae euacuarunt: With what labour, with what price did I get Barrabanus (a certaine Rabbin) to teach me in the night? the paper of Alexandria hath emptied my purse: epistol. ad Pammach. & Ocean. Hierome then had money: for otherwise he could not hauehave been at this cost. You see now (master Controller) how well Hierome standeth of your side: and yet if he were yours wholy here, you must lend him to vsus for many other points, as concerning the Canonicall Scriptures, against free will, merits, for iustification by faith, and such other, as might abundantly be shewed, if either time or place serued.

5. Fiftly: 1. In what sense Telesphorus, Calixtus, and Hyginus are said to hauehave been the institutors of these vsages, of Lent, Ember p. 101fasts, Chrisme, is sufficiently shewed before, in the answere to contradict. 3. 2. Though they could alleage antiquitie for these toyes, yet this is nothing to the substance of Poperie. 3. And if these obseruations hauehave been of ancient time, yet shall they neuer be able to shew, that they were so superstitiously then kept, with so many superfluous rites, with such opinion of merite, and with such necessitie inioyned, as now in Poperie.

6. Sixtly, that Iohns Baptisme was diuersIohns baptisme not diuers frō Christs. from Christs, contrarie to the opinion of the Protestants, Augustine (saith the Libeller) standeth on our side.

Contrà. 1. Augustine is not wholy theirs: for whereas Bellarmine denieth, that the proper end of Iohns baptisme was for remission of sinnes; Augustine thus confesseth: Tamen ne quisquam contendat etiam in baptismo Ioannis dimissa esse peccata, sed aliquam ampliorem sanctificationem &c. per baptismum Christi collatam, non ago pugnaciter, &c. Yet least any man contend, that euen in Iohns baptisme sinnes were forgiuen, but that some greater sanctification was conferred by Christs baptisme vponupon those that S. Paul bid to be againe baptized, I will not striue against it. Augustine here seemeth to graunt, that Iohn might remit sinnes in baptisme, so that some preeminence and greater sanctification be yeelded to Christs. Is not the Libeller now ashamed p. 102to say, that he abuseth Saint Augustine, I make no doubt: but who so bold as blind bayard? It is pitie that hee had not the Author by him to examine this sentence: for hee would then hauehave cried out a fresh of falsification, because I rehearsed not all the words, as they are cited now, only for breuitie sake, setting downe those, which shew that, for the which the place is alleaged: but now the whole sentence being expressed, there is the same sense, which before out of part was inferred: onelyonly in the margin the place is mistaken, the 14. chapter being noted for the tenth.

2. What if wee yeeld you Augustine for this opinion; what hauehave you gained, if other of the fathers testifie with vsus, that make Iohns baptisme and Christs all one? As Ambrose confesseth: Ioannes in remissionem peccatorum in aduenientis Iesu nomine, non in suo baptizauit, &c. Iohn baptized for remission of sinnes in the name of Iesus to come, not in his own, lib. 1. de Spirit. cap. 3. Leo saith: Christus ad Ioannis baptisma accessit: Christ came vntounto Iohns baptisme, de consecr. distinct. 3. c. 14. And wee are baptized with that baptisme, wherewith Christ was baptized. Ambros. serm. 41. Ergo fratres tingi debemus eodem fonte, quo Christus, vt possimus esse quod Christus: Therefore brethren we must be dipped in the same fountaine that Christ was, that wee may be p. 103the same that Christ is. And Chromatius saith, Nunquam aqua baptismi purgare peccata credentium posset, nisi tactu Dominici corporis sanctificatae essent: The waters of baptisme could neuer purge the sinnes of beleeuers, vnlesse they were sanctified by the touch of the Lords bodie: in Matth. cap. 6. Wee then are baptized with that baptisme which Christ sanctified, but that was the baptisme of Iohn.

Your Master of Sentences confesseth, that Iohn baptized in nomine futuri, in the name of Christ to come, libr. 4. distinct. 2. f. and that they, which did not spem ponere, put their hope in Iohns baptisme, were not baptized againe: ibid. and he thinketh that Christs baptisme was instituted in Iordan, distinct. 3. g. but that was Iohns baptisme, as Leo before saith: Ergo, Iohns baptisme and Christs were alone: And if they were not baptized again, that receiued Iohns baptisme in a right faith, then was it all one with the baptisme of Christ. I hope now it appeareth, that antiquitie will not yeeld this point vntounto our aduersaries.

7. Concerning the profession of virginitie, hee saith, antiquitie was of our opinion, because it is confessed, that the Manichees obiected vntounto Augustine, the multitude of their virgines.

Ans. 1. I marueile how the Defender here escaped the Detectors censure: for the words p. 104alleaged are somewhat mistaken: for the Manichees did not thus obiect to Augustine: You labour to draw women of eueryevery hand to this profession by your profession, that now in your Churches the number of professed virgines exceedeth the number of women: but this is Augustines obiection to the Manichees, libr. 30. cont. Faustum cap. 4. So that this testimonie sheweth a great affinitie betweene the superstitious endeuour of the Manichees, and the like practise in the popish Church, to make a multitude of virgines.

2. We grant the Fathers allowed the professionHow Augustine alloweth profession of virginitie. of virginitie, where they had receiued that gift, but much vnlike it was to the popish vowes of single life. Augustine in the same place thus writeth: Nos hortamur volentes, vt permaneant, non cogimus inuitas, vt accedant: We exhort them that are willing to continue, but we compell none against their wils to come. And againe, Ipsi tam stultum iudicamus inhibere volentem, quam nefas & impium nolentem cogere: We count it as foolish to forbid those that are willing, as wicked to compell the vnwilling, cont. faust. lib. 30. 4. They then forced no virgines, by cunning perswasion, as the Manichees did, nor otherwise to take vponupon them the profession of virginitie, neither did they hold them against their wils: But it is an vsuall practise in the popish Church, craftily to entice yong men p. 105and women to professe Monkerie, and after they are once entred, they then keepe them against their minds and disposition.

8. That Christ descended into that part of hell, which is called Limbus Patrum, and deliuered from thence the soules of Abraham and the Patriarkes, and other faithfull people, that were there kept expecting the redemption of mankinde, &c. the ancient Fathers giuegive sentence for vsus: and it is confessed, the most part of them to hauehave been in this error.

Answ. 1. Whereas Origen is alleaged in 1. cap. Iob to proue that the Patriarkes went to heauen, a place of life and light, to Abrahams bosome, the queere of Angels, &c. this answere is made, that he suspecteth that Origen is not syncerely alleaged: wherein he sheweth his great ignorance, and slender reading in the Fathers: the place is truly word for word copied out of Origen.

Againe (saith the Libeller) Origen beleeued herein as we beleeue, and to that purpose he citeth Origen, hom. 15. in Genes. thus speaking, that Christ descended to hell to fetch Adam from thence: Quod enim dicit ad latronem, hodie mecum eris in paradiso, non hoc illi solum dictum, sed etiam omnibus sanctis dictum intellige, pro quibus ad inferna descendit: For what hee said to the theefe, this day thou shalt be with me in paradice, was not said onelyonly to him, but vnderstand p. 106it to be spoken to al the Saints, for whom he descended to hell.

Contrà. 1. By this saying of Origen, all the Saints ascended to heauen, the same day, andOrigen against Christs descension to hell, to deliuer the Patriarkes. at the same time, when the soule of the conuerted theefe went to paradice. This is contrary to the opinion of the moderne Papists, that hold, that Christs soule, manebat in loco animarum illo triduo, quo corpus iacebat in loco corporum, did tarie three daies in the place of soules, all which time his bodie did lie in the place of the bodies, Bellarm. libr. 4. de Christ. anim. cap. 15. And this is one of Durands arguments, to prooue, that Christs soule went not locally into hell, but onelyonly effectually, in power and vertue, because in the same instant of Christs death the soules of the Saints were, beatificatae, made blessed, in 3. distin. 22. quaest. 3. And if the same day of Christs death, their soules were in paradice, according to Origens opinion, I pray you what time had Christs soule to be in hell, but onelyonly by the vertue and power thereof: which must bee Origens meaning? Vnlesse you will say, that Christs soule was in heauen and hell in two places at once: which shift Bellarmine is driuen vntounto, saying, It was not impossible vntounto God, to make Christs soule to bee in two places at once, libr. 4. de Christ. anim. cap. 15. All things are possible, wee graunt vntounto God: but where hath hee any warrant out p. 107of Scripture of this his presumption?

2. And that Origen meaneth not, that Christ did fetch the Saints out of any such hell and place of darknes, as they imagine, it is euident by that which followeth within tenne lines after in the same Homilie: where Origen vponupon these words of the Lord to Iacob, Genes. 46. 4. I will bring thee backe againe: Velut si diceret, quia certamen bonum certasti, fidem seruasti, &c. reuocabo te iam de hoc mundo ad beatitudinem futuram, ad perfectionem vitae aeternae, ad iustitiae coronam, quam reddet Dominus in fine seculorum omnibus qui diligunt eum: As if he should say, because thou hast fought a good fight, kept the faith, &c. I will call thee out of this world to the blessednes to come, to the perfectiō of eternall life, to the crowne of righteousnes, which God shall render in the end of the world to all that louelove him. If blessednes then, perfection of eternall life, the crowne of righteousnes, be in hell; then Iacob went to hell, otherwise not.

3. Because exception is taken against that testimonie cited out of Origen vponupon Iob, who is thought not to hauehave been the author of that booke (for the which I will not much contend, though it be ancient, and sufficiently shew the opinion of that time, that Limbus Patrum, was not generally held of the Fathers) I will declare Origens iudgement out of other places of his workes: as Tractat. 26. p. 108in Matth. Prophetis recedentibus ab hac vita, corpora eorum in sepulchris erant, animae autem & spiritus in regione viuorum: The Prophets departing out of this life, their bodies were in the graues, but their soules and spirits in the region of the liuing. Againe, tract. 30. in Matth. vppon these words, they shall gather the elect from the ends of heauen; he thus saith: Electi non solum illi qui ex aduentu Christi sunt sancti, sicut quidam magistri haerese…s dicunt, sed omnes, qui à constitutione mundi fuerunt, qui viderunt, sicut Abraham, Christi diem: They onelyonly are not the elect, which are the Saints since the comming of Christ, as some masters of heresie say, but all they, which from the beginning of the world saw the day of Christ, as Abraham did. If then the Patriarkes were in the region of the liuing, and were elected, I trust you will not say they were in hell: that is not the region of the liuing, nor yet a place for the elect.

4. Neither did Origen only of the Fathers impugne your Limbus, but others also.

Cyprian serm▪ de mortalitat. Ad refrigerium iusti vocantur; ad supplicium rapiuntur iniusti: The iust are called to a refreshing, the vnrighteous are haled to punishment. If hell bee a place of refreshing, then the Patriarkes went thither. Ambrose: Qui in sinu Abrahae sedet, susceptus à Christo est: He that sitteth in Abrahams bosome, is receiued of Christ. The Patriarkes p. 109then and Prophets were receiued of Christ, for they were in Abrahams bosome: he that is receiued of Christ, is not I thinke in hell.

Augustine thus expoundeth these words, Genes. 49. 33. he was gathered to his people: An forte populus non solum sanctorum est, verum & angelorum: This people (it may be) is not only of the Saints, but of the Angels: huic populo apponuntur, qui post hanc vitam Deo placentes fiunt, to this people they are put, which after this life please God, quaest. 168. super Geves.

Likewise epistol. 99. Ne ipsos inferos vspiam scripturarum locis in bono appellatos reperire potui: I could neuer finde in Scripture, hell to bee taken in any good sense: and there hee concludeth, non esse membrum aut partem inferorum tantae illius faelicitatis sinum: that that bosome of so great felicitie, was no part or member of hell. The Patriarkes then that were in Abrahams bosome, by Augustines sentence were not in hell, but in a place of great happines. If they were not then in hell, Christ could not fetch them from thence. Wherfore it is a great vntruth, which the Libeller hath vttered, that all the Fathers, yea Origen beleeued as wee doe, that Christ in soule descended into that part of hell which is called Limbus Patrum.

9. Ninthly, whereas it is affirmed, Synops. p. 110p. 523. that there was no question about the reall presence for 1000. yeeres after Christ, till the time of Berengarius, who was sore troubled for maintaining the truth: Hereupon it is inferred, that the Church, till that time, generally beleeued the Reall presence, before Berengarius taught the contrarie; otherwise how could he hauehave fallen into any troubles at all, if his doctrine had been consonant, to that which was receiued before, &c. p. 188.

Contra. 1. That till 1000. yeares after Christ, no other presence was held of Christ in the Sacrament, but spirituall to the faith of the worthie receiuer: neither that his bodie and blood was otherwise eaten and drunke then by faith; & that the substances of the bread and wine, remained after consecration: it plencifully appeareth by the testimonies of Tertullian, Irenaeus, Augustine, Ambrose, Theodoret, Hesychius, Emissenus, Bede, Haymo, Bertram, Rabanus Maurus and others, cited by M. Fox p. 1137. and 1138. it were too long to bring them in speaking here: I desire the Reader to hauehave concourse thither.

2 We hauehave our aduersaries confession,Transubstantiation and the Carnall presence, but new doctrines. for the antiquitie of this opinion: Decr. p. 3. dist. 2. c. 44. Non hoc corpus, quod videtis, manducaturi estis, &c. Ye shall not eate this bodie, which yee see, nor drinke that blood, which they shall shed, that crucifie me, I hauehave p. 111commended vntounto you a sacrament, which being spiritually vnderstood, shall quicken you. c. 48. Suo modo vocatur corpus Christi, cum reuera sit sacramentum corporis Christi: It is called the bodie of Christ after a certaine manner being in deed a sacrament of y^e body of Christ. Dist. 4. c. 131. It is not to be doubted, but eueryevery faithful mā, Corporis sanguinis que dominici participem fieri, quando in baptismate membrum Christi efficitur: To be made partaker of the bodie and blood of Christ, when in Baptisme he is made a member of Christ: so that Christ is as well present in Baptisme as in the Eucharist, which is not after a carnall manner, but spirituallie. Twentie such places might be alleaged out of their owne decrees. Concerning transubstantiation also; Cuthbert Tonstal saith, Liberū fuit ante concilium Lateranense: It was free before the Councel of Lateran, and eueryevery man was left to his owne coniecture. libr. 1. de Euchar. Cusanus saith: Quidam veteres theologi intellexisse reperiuntur, &c. Certaine auncient diuines are found of this mind, that the bread in the Sacrament is not transubstantiate, but clothed with a more noble substance: Excitat. libr. 6. How then is not the libeller ashamed to say, that the doctrine of the Reall presence was generally beleeued before Berengarius taught the contrarie?

3 At what time Berengarius impugned p. 112the Reall presence, certaine superstitious Monkes, as Lanfrancus, Guimondus, Algerius, Fulbertus, Hildebrand, held the contrarie, so that there was an opposition and partes taken: then the Pope Leo the 6. (not Leo 9. for the figure is mistaken, and the Libellers skill did not serue him to correct it) anno 1049. tooke part with the Monkes and their Monkish opinion, and condemned the opinion of Berengarius: So did Nicolaus 2. that suceeded not long after, cause the said Berengarius to recant in a synod at Rome: ex Wilhel. Malmesburio de gest. Anglor. libr. 3. And this was the cause of Berengarius trouble, because he opposed himselfe not against the auncient doctrine of the Church, but against the new superstitious conceite of certaine Monkes, with whom these Popes tooke part for their aduantage. And this may appeare by the recantation of Berengarius reported by Gratiane, that he did hold the same faith, Quam Dominus & venerabilis Papa Nicolaus, & haec sancta synodus authoritate Euangelica & Apostolica tenendam tradidit: Which the Lord and venerable Pope Nicolas and this holy synode, by their Euangelicall and Apostolicall authoritie, did deliuer to be held. De consecrat. distin. 2. c. 42. This synode then was the first, that decreed the carnall presence.

4 Whereas Berengarius subscribeth to the fayth of Pope Nicholas: the bodie and the p. 113blood of Christ Sensualiter & in veritate manibus The Papists are fled from the Popes faith of the Carnall presence.sacerdotum tractari, frangi & fidelium dentibus atteri: To be sensiblie, and in truth handled by the Priests, and broken and rent with the teeth of the faithfull: how commeth it to passe, that the Papists are now fled from this faith? For Bellarmine dare not say, that the bodie of Christ is chawne and rent of the teeth, but the shewes and accidents of the bread and wine: de Euchar. lib. 3. c. 10. And the contrarie to this faith of Nicolas is alleaged by Gratian out of Augustine dist. de consecr. 2. c. 47. Quid paras dentes & ventrem? crede & manducasti: Why doe you prepare your teeth and belly? beleeue and you hauehave eaten.

Now let any man iudge, whether, as this challenger maketh his bragges, antiquitie stand soundly with the Papists in the doctrine of prayer for the dead, inuocation of Saints, adoration of relikes, prohibition of mariage, Limbus patrum, the Carnall presence: it falleth out vntounto him, as Cato wasforeign. wont to say: Qui ridiculis rebus seriam impenderent operam, in serijs fore ridiculos: They which were serious in ridiculous matters, should be ridiculous in serious: so whereas in many friuolous obiections before this Sophister was very earnest, and layd on load, in this waightie contention about antiquitie, he hath made himselfe ridiculous. I wish rather, that his eyes were opened, that he might p. 114see the nakednes of their religion, and how true antiquitie fauoureth them not. Thus by iustifying their errors, he doth adde vntounto his fault, as Augustine saith: Nolens se esse reum, addit potius ad reatum, sua excusando peccata, ignorat non se poenam remouere sed veniam: He that will not be guiltie, doth adde to his guiltines, and he little knoweth, that he doth not remoue the paine, but the pardon: de continent. c. 5.

The 9. Contradiction.

SYnops. p. 924. He that is once the sonne of God is alwaies to the end: this doctrine is noted to be 1. dangerous, 2. false, 3. contradictorie to it selfe.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst it is dangerous (saith he) that whereas it is said that the children of the faithfull are holy euen before they be baptized: and so consequently can neuer fall out of Gods grace, it spurreth to all desperate villanie, as to too much experience hath taught vsus.

Contra. 1. The Children of the faithfull are said to be holy, not in respect of their eternall election, as though all such were sure to bee saued, but in respect of the outward coueuant made to the Church: whereof they are members, p. 115being the seed of the faithfull: and therfore this is impertinently alleaged; and it is as simply inferred, that because the children of the faithfull are holie, as the Apostle saith 1. Corinth. 7. 14. Ergo, they cannot fall out of Gods grace.

2. Not the Protestants faithfull assurance of saluation, but popish religion spurreth some to all villanie, as this land hath had too wofull experience, in their conspiraci…s, treacheries, rebellions and traiterous practises both against their Prince and Countrey, though (God be thanked) they hauehave failed of their wicked hope. Assurance of saluation breedeth not carnal securitie, but godly carefulnes, that they may walke worthie of their calling: as the Apostle saith, We are chosen in him, &c. that we should be holy, Ephes. 1. 4. And if Princes, that should giuegive securitie of their goods to their subiects, were able to guide their hearts, and keepe them in obedience, as God doth gouerne the elect, there were no daunger.

3. This disputer ignorantly confoundeth two questions: one of the certaintie of election before God, the other of the assurance thereof to our selues: the first is here affirmed and grounded vpō that text, Io…. 13. 1. Whom Election certaine.God loueth, he loueth to the end: which text he is neuer able to answere: and therefore windeth himselfe to another matter of assurance p. 116of saluation: but that our election is certaine in Gods eternall decree, the popish Diuines themselues doe graunt, as Thomas Aquinas, Peter Lombard, Gratian, Espenceus, as they are alleaged Synops. pag. 824. and I know none of learning amongst them, that denie it, but this brabler, that eueryevery where proclaimeth his owne ignorance.

Secondly, where that text is vrged, Galath. 5. 4. Ye are euacuated from Christ, which are iustified by the law, ye are fallen from grace: to prooue that election may bee lost, the answere is soone made.

1. They which seeke for iustification by the law, are said to fall from grace, not of election before God, but in respect of their apparance vntounto men, in losing and falling away from the meanes, which should bring them to saluation. As Ambrose saith writingElection certaine. vponupon these words of the Lord to Moses, Exodus 32. 33. Him that sinneth, will I blot out of the booke of life: Secundum iustitiam iudicis tum deleri videntur, cum peccant; iuxta praescientiam verò nunquam in libro vitae fuerunt: In the iustice of the Iudge they then are said to be blotted out, when they sinne; but according to Gods prescience they were neuer in the booke of life: in 9. ad Roman.

2. Concerning Saul, I hauehave shewed before,Saul neuer ele…ed before God. that …ee was neuer elected before God, or truly iust: answer to the 11. vntruth: and p. 101you hauehave brought a goodly text to proue it: Saul was a choise young man and afaire, &c. higher by the shoulders, thē the children of Israel: Ergo, he was chosen before God: Ambrose saith, Qui credere videntur, & non permanent in fide, à Deo electi negantur, quia quos Deus eligit, apud se permanent: est etiam, qui ad tempus eligitur, sicut Saul & Iudas non de praescientia, sed de praesenti iustitia: They which seeme to beleeue, and continue not in faith, are denied to be elected of God, for whom God electeth, doe continue with him: there is also, that is chosen for a time, as Saul and Iudas, not in Gods prescience, but in their present iustice: in 8. ad Roman.

3. Thirdly, the same answere we make to the supposed contradiction, that Adam was made subiect to euerlasting condemnation by his transgression, not before God, but inHow the grace of God may be lost. respect of himselfe and his present state, because by his sinne he had deserued it: he was subiect to damnation, ex merito suo, non ex decreto Dei, by his desert, not by the decree of God: neither had he vtterly lost the grace of God to which hee was restored, but in part only in respect of his present feeling. As Dauid saith, Psalm. 51. 12. Restore me to the ioy of saluation: hee had not lost his saluation, but the feeling, the ioy and comfort of it. As Ambrose saith: In terris quateris, in caelis possides: Thou art tossed and shaken in the earth, and p. 118yet doest possesse in heauen: de obit. Theodos.

The 10. Contradiction.

SYnops. pag. 1067. to affirme, that Henoch and Elias went vp to heauen in their bodies before the ascension of Christ out of Scripture, it cannot be proued; it is euident that they were taken vp aliue into heauen, but not that they continued aliue: out of these words the Libeller, first noteth a contradiction: secondly, a notable vntruth.

The Reconciliation.

1. FIrst, to remoue the contradiction: in that it is said, they were taken vp aliue, or in their bodies into heauen: it is not meant that they went into heauen with their bodies, but that they were aliue in their bodies, when they were taken vp from the earth: so that the words must be read with a distinction; their being aliue, or in their bodies, must be referred to the first clause, they were taken vp, not to the second, into heauen. Thus the Sophister vseth a fallacie, conioyning those things, which are to bee disioyned: As where it is said, Act. 1. 11. This Iesus, which is taken vp into heauen, shall so come, as ye hauehave seene him go into heauen: the words must not be taken in a ioynt sense, as though they did see Christ going p. 119or entring into heauen, for a clowd took him frō their sight, v. 9. neither was that heauen, whither Christ went, euer seene with mortall eye: but the words must be distinguished: they did onelyonly see him goe, that is, taken from the earth, and going from them: As there is no contradiction in these words, that a clowd tooke him from their sight, and yet they saw him going into heauen, no more is there in the other.

2. Secondly, whereas the Libeller affirmeth, that Henoch and Elias are yet aliue in their bodies, but not in heauen, belike in the terrestriall paradise, as some hauehave thought, Rhem. in 11. Apocal. sect. 4. And that Henoch and Elias shall come in person in the time of Antichrist, I wil briefly shew how vncertaine both these opinions are.

First, that they are aliue in their bodies inHenoch and Elias not aliue in their bodies. paradise the Scripture sheweth not: that place Ecclesiastic. 44. 16. (which is scripture with them) that Henoch was translated into paradise, is corruptly translated: for the word paradise is not in the Greeke, as Pererius hath wel obserued, lib. 3. in Genes. qu. 5. Where that place is vrged, Matth. 11. vers. 11. Elias indeed shall come, or is to come: it is rather to be read, venturus erat, was for to come: so readeth Hentenius a Papist in Euthym. so the vulgar Latine translateth vers. 3. where Iohn sendeth this message to Christ: Art thou he, that art to p. 120come, without any sense, for Christ was come alreadie: it should be rather read, foreign, which should come, or was to come.

2. The booke of Macchabees, which is Scripture with them, saith, 1. chap. 2. 58. Elias was taken vp, foreign: vsque, euen into heauen: which word, euen, importeth not his taking vp onelyonly into the ayre, but into heauen indeede. Hierome saith that Henoch & Elias, mortis necessitate superata ita vt erant in corporibus de terrena conuersatione ad caelestia regna translati sunt: The necessitie of death being ouercome, as they were in their bodies, were translated from their terrene conuersation to the celestiall kingdome. And of this opinion hee saith was Theodorus Heracleotes, tom. 4. Miner. & Alexand. that they were translated to heauen, we beleeue with Hierome, but not in their very bodies: therein I preferre rather Origens opinion: Sicut ex mortuis primogenitus Christus, ita primus carnem euexit in coelum: As Christ was the first borne of the dead, so he first caried his flesh into heauen, ex Pamphil.

3. Whereas he vrgeth that place Heb. 11. vers. 5. By faith was Enoch translated, that hee should not see death, to proue that he is yet aliue: the Apostle onelyonly sheweth, that he died not after the vsuall manner, and common condition; as they which shall be aliue at Christs comming shall not die, but they shal p. 121be changed, 1. Cor. 15. 51. which is a kinde of death. For otherwise how should that sentence of Scripture be verified, Heb. 9. 27. It is appointed vntounto men, that they shall once die, that is, to all men: wherefore Henoch and Elias, though they died not a common death, yet were they chaunged, which was in steede of death vntounto them.

4. Origen thinketh, that Elias descendens Paradise is Heauen.ad inferna, &c. did descend to hell, &c. Hom. 4. in Luc. Ambrose taketh paradise to bee heauen: Tum saluus fuero in paradiso cum coepero viuere inter electos angelos: Then I shall bee safe, when I shall liue in paradise among the elect Angels, serm. 15. in Psal. 119. If Henoch and Elias be in paradise, they are then in heauen.

Chrysostome Hom. 21. in Genes. If any man doe curiously aske into what place Henoch was translated, and whether hee doe liue to this present: discat non conuenire humanis mentibus curiosius ea, quae à Deo fiunt, explorare: let him learne, that it is not fit for men curiously to search out those things which God doth: Hom. 21. in Genes. Augustine: Quid de Helia factum sit, nescimus, hoc de illo tamen credimus, quod verax scriptura testatur: What is become of Elias we know not, that we beleeue of him which the Scripture testifieth, cont. Faust. lib. 26. cap. 4.

Theodoret qu. 45. in Genes. dare not determine p. 122into what place Henoch was translated.

Rupertus, that Henoch was not translated into the terrestriall paradise, lib. 3. de trinitat. cap. 33.

Thomas affirmeth not, that Henoch and Elias are in paradise, but with this addition, vt dicitur, vel creditur, as it is said, or beleeued; 1. par. qu. 103. ar. 2.

Iansenius a popish Bishop is of opinion,Henoch, Elias, not in the terrestrial Paradise. that Henoch and Elias are not in the terrestriall paradise, in Comment. super cap. 143. concord. Euangelic. Of the same iudgement is Pererius a lesuite, lib. 3. in Genes. qu. 5.

Now for the second point, it is as vncertaine out of the Fathers, that Henoch and Elias shall come in person in the time of Antichrist.

1. Cyprian saith: Nobis in spiritu & virtute Eliae non alium quam Ioannem solum, &c. The Angell and our Lord Christ doe insinuate none other to come in the power and spirit of Elias, but Iohn onelyonly, de singular. Clericor. Likewise Origen: Vide fortassis si Ioannem baptistam possumus ponere in loco Eliae: See if happily wee may not place Iohn Baptist in the place of Elias: in 11. ad Roman.

2. Concerning the two Prophets mentionedOf the two Prophets. Apocal. 11.Rev 11 in the Apocalypse chap. 11. Augustine vnderstandeth the two Testaments, and confuteth them, quiputant hos duos testes duos p. 123viros esse, which take these two witnesses for two men, &c. Beda also vnderstandeth the doctrine of the old and new Testament: Ambrosius Ausbertus, the holie Church in generall in her preachers.

3. Victorinus vponupon that place sheweth, that some vnderstand Helias and Moses, but he would hauehave it to be Ieremie. Hilarius contendeth they must be Moses and Helias. Iustinus thinketh not onelyonly Henoch and Elias to be aliue, but also those whose bodies arose at the resurrection of Christ, qu. 85. ad Orthodox. Hippolytus will hauehave, not onelyonly Henoch and Elias, but Iohn the Diuine also to come with them before the comming of Christ.

Now I referre it to the iudgement of the discreete Reader, whether this conceit of Henoch and Elias, be not more like to be a fable, then to hauehave any likelihood of truth, wherein there is such diuersitie of opinion, and vncertaintie amongst the ancient writers. The Libeller bringeth foorth nothing but painted papers and emptie Poticaries boxes: he hath painted his lines with the names of Fathers, but produceth not their testimonies: he setteth foorth no new stuffe, but the scrapings of other mens platters. And as Flaminius host at Chalcis, when he wondred at the multitude of the dishes, said vntounto him, omnes carnes suillas, they were all but swines flesh,foreign. diuersly dressed: so this homely host entertaineth p. 124his reader but with their wonted grosse meates, though he would shew in the new kind of dressing it, a piece of slouenly cookerie of his own: I say then vntounto him, with Hierome: Aut profer meliores epulas & me conuiua vtere, aut qualicunque hac caenula nostra contentus esto: Either bring foorth better meate, and let me be one of your ghests, or els (pull downe your stomacke) and taste of my prouision. And I would that he, that first bid vsus to eate of his swines dish (too grosse meate for a sound stomack) had grace to receiue the holesome meate that is presented to him for his health.

The 11. Contradiction.

SYnops. pag. 908. A true liuely faith, &c. can neuer finally fall away, &c. a iustifying faith is alwaies actuall working by louelove. pag. 881. no louelove no faith: Hereof it followeth, that either Dauid and Peter had no faith, when hee committed adulterie, and the other denied his master, or els that Peter loued his master, when he denied him, and Dauid loued God and his neighbour, when he committed adulterie with the wife and slew the husband, &c. pag. 197.

The Reconciliation.

FIrst, there is a difference betweene a true faith and a perfect faith: a true faith alwaies p. 125remaineth in the elect, though it be not alwaies a perfect and glorious faith: likewise a true faith is not alwaies a like effectuall or working, but yet alwaies accompanied with louelove, though not in the same degree.

2. As then Dauid and Peters faith failed in these their sinnes, so also their charitie: but it therefore followeth not, that because in one act their faith and charitie failed, and in part was empaired, therefore it was wholie extinguished.

3. And that neither of them was giuen ouer to a reprobate sense, it may appeare, because Dauid vponupon Nathans admonition repented, and Peter presently vponupon his deniall went foorth and wept bitterly.

4. Wherefore your Logicke (sir Sophister) here faileth you, and you conclude weakely, from a part to the whole, that because their louelove failed in part, it was wholy lost: was there no sparke of louelove in Dauid neither towardDauid and Peters faith not vtterly extinguished. God nor man, nor no goodnes left in Peter during their seuerall tentations? When the Moone is in decreasing, hath she lost all her light? the seede, that lieth all the winter buried in the earth, hath it no life in it? So the seede of faith and charitie alwaies remaineth in the faithfull, though not alike greene and flourishing. Because you (sir Cauiller) hauehave shewed your selfe at this time in slaundring and railing, an vnhonest man, shall I therefore p. 126inferre, that there is no goodnes or honestie left in you?

4. For Salomon the same answer wil serue,Salomons faith not wholy lost in his fall. that though in that hainous sinne of Idolatrie both his faith and louelove failed, yet it was not generally or totally extinguished: as the Lord saith, 2. Sam. 7. 15. My merciemercy shall not depart away from him: but where no faith nor louelove is, there is no merciemercy. As merciemercy on Gods behalfe therfore did not vtterly depart from him: so neither in Salomon was faith quite rooted out: the seede of faith and louelove lay buried in him, in that his heauie sleepe; and was afterward, by Gods grace awaked and reuiued. But how is it inferred, that vnlesse the fire of charitie were cleane put out in Salomon, idolatrie must be a good worke and the louing of God? for this wicked act sheweth a partiall and temporall failing of faith and charitie, not a totall or finall: was there, thinke you, no goodnes, vertue, iustice, wisedome (the fruits of faith and charitie in Gods children) remaining in Salomon in the time of his fall? The contrarie is extant in Scripture, Eccles. 2. 9. My wisedome remained with me, euen in the middest of his pleasure, the light of wisedome and knowledge was not extinguished in him.

5. Concerning Paul, we affirme, that hee was alwaies a member of the Catholike Church (as it comprehendeth the number of p. 127the predestinate) not onelyonly when hee was a persecutor, but euen before he was borne, in respect of the foreknowledge and decree of God: yet was hee not then an actuall and present member of the Church, to the which faith is required: wherefore to dispute that Paul had no faith, when he was a persecutor, is a needlesse labour, for as yet he was not in act a member of the Church, neither had faith, before hee was called, and therefore could not lose, that, which he had not.

6. You blaspheme the Church of Geneua,A slaunder. and the Protestants, as though they should say or thinke, that adulterie, murther and idolatrie in the children of God, be no sinnes, but good workes, and fruites of faith, pag. 202. We are further off from iustifying vngodly workes, then Papists are: for they hold that some sins are veniall and pardonable in their owne nature: we affirme, that all sins in themselues, without Gods merciemercy, are mortall, that is, worthie of damnation: they say, that a iust man doth not sinne in his good workes, so much as venially. Synops. pag. 922. we hold that euen the best workes of the righteous are blemished with some infirmitie: they teach, that the motions of the flesh, though neuer so wicked, are not sinfull, if a man giuegive not any consent, Libel pag. 134. we professe, that the very euill concupiscence, though the will concurre not with it, is sinfull. Now let p. 128the world iudge, which of vsus the Protestants, or Papists are furthest off, from allowing, or commending wicked workes.

7. But where you charge vsus to say, that inThe vertues of the Pagans, are no true vertues. Infidels to honour their parents, to fight for their countrie, be damnable sinnes, pag. 202. wee say with the Apostle, Whatsoeuer is not of faith is sin, Rom. 14. 23. which place Augustine vrged against the Pelagians, that iustified the glorious acts of the Pagans: and he further saith, Non officijs, sed finibus virtutes à vitijs discernendae sunt: That vertues are to be discerned from vices, not by the act but the end, contr. Iulian. libr. 4. cap. 3. And againe, Virtutes nisi quis ad Deum retulerit, vitia potius sunt, quam virtutes: Virtues, if they be not referred to God, are vices rather, then vertues, de ciuitat. Dei lib. 19. cap. 25. Wee condemne not then the good things, which are in Infidels, but their euill affections, whereby they corrupt that which is good: and so this point shall be concluded with that saying of Augustine: Colligitur, ipsa bona opera quae faciunt insideles, non ipsorum esse, sed illius, qui bene vtitur malis, ipsorum autem esse peccata, quibus bona male faciunt: It is gathered then, that the good workes, which the Infidels do, are not theirs, but his, that vseth the euill well, but theirs are the sinnes, whereby they doe good things euill, con…. Iulian. 4. 3.

Now hauing refuted this Cauillers friuolous p. 129obiections, my leisure doth a little serue me to answere his iniurious speeches: and as for his particular taunts, of crowes, birds, and apes, foule puppies, pag. 201. such scoffers wee vouchsafe not an answere: but as Magas sent to Philemon threatning warre, dice and tenice balles; so wee doe rebound vponupon this warlike challengers head, his popish bullet shot. But seeing he goeth further from mens persons to gall religion it selfe with his prophane iests, of Puritanical principles, and the regenerate generation of Geneua; this iniurie done to the Church of Christ I cannot passe ouer with silence. Wherein, as Hierome compareth Heluidius, hee is like to him that set Dianaes Temple on fire, Vt qui bene non poterat, male omnibus innotesceret, That he by euill doing might be famous to al, that by wel doing could not: so he in kindling a fire against the church of Christ, nobilis factus est in scelere, maketh himselfe famous in his euill doing. And like as Philoxenus and Gnato two gluttons, did vse to blow their noses in the platters, that no man should eate with them: so plaieth this trencher man in vomiting his gall vppon the table as it were of Christs Church, that all men might lothe it. Therfore seeing he spareth not to reuile the mother, the children must not thinke straunge to be euill spoken of: but wee say with Hierome: Illud dico maledicta tua mihi gloriae fore, cum eodem, p. 130quo Ecclesiae detraxisti, ore me laceres, & canina facundiam & (filius) pariter experiatur & mater: This I say, that your ray lings are a credit to mee, when with the same mouth, wherewith you derogate from the Church, you wound mee, and the sonne and mother together, do tast of your doggish eloquence: aduer. Heluid.

The 12. Contradiction.

TEtrastyl. p. 118. It is an absurd thing to say a man may lose the confession of his 1faith, and yet keepe his faith sound: Synops.2 p. 165. Peter lost the confession of his faith, he denied Christ in word: Againe, Peter lost not his iustification: but it is a perfect faith which doth iustifie vsus before God: If Peter were iust3 still, then was his faith perfect, and so his faith was perfect, because it was a iustifying faith; and not perfect, because hee denied Christ: to this purpose the Libeller. p. 205.

The Reconciliation.

1. IT is true, that faith cannot be sound and whole, where a man faileth in confession: and therefore Peter, who lost his confession as Bellarmine saith, was not sound and perfect in faith.

2. Where it is said, That Peter lost the confession p. 131of his faith, he might hauehave considered, that those words are vttered, ex confessione aduersarij, from the confession of the aduersarie, because Bellarmine saith, that Peter lost the confession of his faith, and not faith it selfe: but we say, though Peter failed in confession, yet he vtterly lost it not.

3. We confesse, that it must be a perfect faith, that is, working by louelove and effectuall, that iustifieth vsus before God, Galath. 5. 6. though no faith is simply and absolutely perfect before God, but in a certaine measure: Then the obiection inferring a contradiction, if it conclude any thing, standeth thus: A perfect faith iustifieth before God; Peter was iustified by that faith, which hee had when he denied Christ, Ergo it was a perfect faith. The second part of this reason is vntrue, for Peter was iustified by his former faith working by louelove, and not by this imperfect and defectiue faith: his iustification in deed was not lost, which he formerly had obtayned by faith, but yet as his faith was weakened, soPeter lost not his iustification, though the feeling thereof was for a time suspend…d. his present feeling of his iustification for the time was suspended. It followeth not then, Peters iustification was not lost, when his faith was weake, Ergo, he was iustified by that weake faith: like as a mans life is not lost in his sicknes, yet he cannot be said to liue by his sicknes. But it will be said, that his iustification begun before, was vpheld and continued p. 132still by the same faith. I graunt, that a perfect, that is, a working faith, doth perfectly iustifie, that is, doth both iustifie in the sight of God, and giueth a sense and feeling to the soule of the iustified: Rom. 5. 1. Being iustified by faith, wee are at peace with God. Now when faith is weakened, though our iustification stand firme before God, because the substance and seede of faith remaineth, yet is it also weakened in our assurance and feeling, and so to our sense for the time as imperfect. This then prooueth not a perfect faith, when as our iustification remaining in substance, in working and feeling is not perfect. Your sillie argument then (sir Sophister) hath no good consequence. I perceiue your Logicke and Diuinitie are both much alike: but you are not so much to be blamed, as your master, that taught you no better: as Diogenes seeing an vnmanner lie boy, gaue his master a blow on the eare, that had instructed him no better. And as Hierome said of Iouinians eloquence: Tam elinguis & sermonis putidi, vt magis misericordia dignus fuerit, quam inuidia: His stile is so rude and so base, that he is to bee pitied rather then enuied: Dial. 1. aduers. Pelagian. Such is this detectors kinde of disputing (to speake nothing of his stile) that he hath more neede of pitie and compassion, then of any confutation.

4. But this contradiction in making Peters p. 133faith perfect and imperfect, may better be returned vponupon themselues: for Bellarmine saith, that Peter lost not his faith, but the cō fession onelyonly, lib. 4. de Roman. pontif. cap. 8. And another saith, Petrus non fidem Christi, sed Contradictions of Papists, about Peters faith.Christum salua fide negauit: Peter denied not the faith of Christ, but he denied Christ, his faith remaining sound. Alan. Cop. If Peters faith were sound and whole still, then was it a perfect faith: but on the other side this stout champion affirmed, that Peter had no faith: What followeth (saith he) seeing Dauid committed adulterie, and murther, and Peter denied his master, but that they had no faith? pag. 197. So Peter had a sound faith and yet no faith. Thus they agree like harpe and harrow together. But we say, that neither Peter had at this time a perfect faith, because hee failed in confession, nor yet no faith, because Christ prayed his faith should not faile, Luk. 22. 32. but that, though his faith were shaken, yet the substance and seede remained still: as Theophilact well sheweth in Luc. cap. 22. Quamuis breui tempore concutiendus sis, habes recondita fidei femina: etiamsi folia abiecerit spiritus inuadentis, radix tamen viuet, & non defi…iet …ides …ua… Although for a while thou shalt be shaken, thou hast the seedes of faith laid vp in store: although the spirit of the tempter do… cast off the leaues, yet the roote shall liue, and thy faith not faile.

p. 134The 13. Contradiction.

TEtrastyl. pag. 97. True faith, whereby wee are iustified &c. cannot be lost and vtterly extinguished &c. the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, Rom. 11. 29.

1. These texts, &c proue not onelyonly, that faith cannot be lost, but also that no other gift what soeuer.

2. Againe, Synops. pag. 485. The children of the faithfull are▪ …olie alreadie, euen before they are baptized, for they are within the couenant &c of they … holie, being borne of the righteous …eede, haw can they possibly perish, although they be vnbaptized? In so Howeth euidently that all children borne of faithfull parents dying without baptisme, are saued, &c▪ hereof also in followeth▪ that all the Iewes that came of Abraham be in…allibly saued, &c. L… bel. pag. 207.

The Reconciliation.

1. FIrst the Apostle speaketh not of al kindWhat gifts are without repétance. of gifts, when he saith, the gifts of God are without repentance but such gifts as doe follow election, and accompanie speciall and effectuall vocation for of election the Apostle spake before … 8. As …ching election they are beloued for the father … and p. 135of vocation in this verse, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. The Apostle▪ then vnderstandeth not generall gifts, but the speciall graces of sanctification giuen to the elect, wherof faith is the principall. Thus Ambrose vnderstandeth the Apostle, epist. 8. Noueris Christi dona irreuocabilia, vt credas, quod semper credidisti, nec nimio moerore tuam in dubium adduc as sententiam: Know that the gifts of Christ are irreuocable, that thou maist beleeue, what thou hast alwaies beleeued, and not with too much heauines make thy sentence doubtfull. He inferreth specially that faith is this irreuocable gift.

2. Secondly: 1. Where children are said to be holie euen before baptisme, it is not vnderstood of such holines and sanctification asHow children are …aid to be holy. followeth election, but because they are within the generall couenant, which God maketh to the faithfull and their seede: so that holines maketh not here a difference betweene the elect and not elect, but betweene the children of the faithfull and of Infidels: For if the one were not more holie then the other, why should they not be indifferently admitted to baptisme? which I think the grossest Papist will non graunt.

2. Neither do we say, that all the children of the faithfull are saued; that die vnbaptized (though in charitie wee are so to thinke) because they are within the couenant, and p. 136hauehave committed nothing, wherby they hauehave made themselues vnworthie of it) but that the want of baptisme is no impediment vntounto such infants, as are within Gods gracious election: as the words doe expound themselues, how can they possibly perish, though they die vnbaptized? So then infants are not by the want of baptisme depriued of their election.

3. But how followeth it, that all the Iewes that came of Abraham be infallibly saued? whereas the question is of those onelyonly which the vnbaptized, which liued not to the yeers of discretion to receiue or refuse faith. But it will be againe obiected: All the children of the faithfull are holie, and once holie, alwaies holie, therefore they cannot choose but bee saued.

Ans. They are holie, as I said before, being the seede of the faithfull, not by any speciall sanctification, but by a generall vocation, being borne of faithfull parents, and so members of the visible Church, admitted to baptisme & other Sacraments of the Church. This externall holines and vocation may be lost: for when they come to yeeres of discretion, and then shew themselues stubborne and refuse the holesome meanes of their calling, they doe fall away: and so is verified that saying of our Sauiour, Many are called, but few are chosen. Some then are Loly by election, p. 137which cannot perish: others are holieTwo kind… of holines, generall and speciall. by vocation, which may be cast off. As Ambrose saith: Tu quidem Domine omnes cupis, sed non omnes curari volunt: Thou O Lord desirest all (in their generall calling) but all will not be cured. And againe he saith: Inter generalia promissa &c. Deus quaedam à communibus excepta causis, occultiore nouit ordinare ratione: Among generall promises God excepting some from the common cause and condition, doth deale with them after a more secret manner, lib. 2. de vocat. Gent. cap. 1. So the generall promises are made to all the seede of the faithfull, but they are specially performed onelyonly to those which beleeue: Confirmauit generalem bonitatem super vniuersos, &c. God hath confirmed his generall goodnes to all; but part of them, merito fidei diuinitus inspiratae ad aeternam salurem specialibus beneficijs prouehitur, by the worthines of faith inspired by God, by speciall benefits is promoted to saluation: Ambros. lib. 2. de vocat. Gent. c. 10.

4. Thus then are the Cauillers frinolous objections answered concerning the saluation of the Iewes of Saul & Iudas, the Church of Rome: all these tasted of Gods generall goodnes in offering to them the externall meanes of saluation, but they wanted the speciall benefits of true sanctification, and effectuall vocation: Where the Libeller by the way is detected of falsehood, pag. 209. p. 138vrging eternall sanctification: which are wordsFalsehood. of his owne putting in: for where the children of the faithfull are said to be holie, eternall and internal holines and sanctification, is neither mentioned, nor yet intended, but the holines of their generall vocation.

5. Yea, saith he, Turks and Iewes also shalVntruthes. bee saued, whose forefathers were faithfull Christians: yea, and the diuels also, which sometime were in Gods grace, pag. 210.

Ans. 1. Are Turkes and Iewes, I pray you, holy seede? or doth not the Apostle speake of such children, whose immediate parents were faithfull▪ 1. Cor. 7. 14. Els were your children vncleane but now are they holie. And are diuels in your diuinitie holie seede?

2. The Papists doe more incline to thesePapists, not Protestants fauourers of infidels. grosse opinions of the sauing of Infidels and Diuels then Protestants: for concerning Infidels▪ they hold, that they in part may beleeue by their owne free will, Rhemist▪ Act. 13. sect. 1. and that their actions which seemed outwardly glorious▪ as in honouring their parents▪ in fighting for their countrie, and such like▪ were not sinfull: Rom. 14. sect. 4. contrarie to the Apostle, who saith, Whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne.

As touching Diuels: first, they doe forbidDoctrines of diuels. to marrie and abstaine from meates, which the Apostle▪ calleth, the doctrines of diuels, 2. Tim. 4. 3. Secondly, they hold that iustifying p. 139faith is a generall, or vniuersall beleeuing of the articles of Christs death and resurrection, Rhemist. annot. Rom. 4. sect. 9. which is no other faith then such as diuels may hauehave, to beleeue the historicall truth of the articles of faith: for they beleeue and tremble, Iam. 2. 19. Now let any reasonable man iudge, whether Papists or Protestants hauehave a better opinion of the Diuels and Infidels. The fables of the deliuering of Plato and the Emperour Traian out of hell at the prayers of Gregorie, and of Falconilla at the prayers of Tecla, are their dreames and deuices, and not ours. The first reported by Nicetas to be currant in the histories of the Fathers, in commentar. ad secund. oration. Nazianzen de pasch: the other by forged Damascene, oration de defunct.

5. Now because this …errie companion maketh himselfe pretie sport with Balaams counsel to send women among the Israelites, with the virgins of the word in Cheshire (disciples of Master Haruie) as hee scornefully calleth them, that g…d▪ vp and downe the countrie to heare Preachers, &c. pag. 181. we will continue this iest a little, and shew him his owne face in a … ▪

1. For …alamites info…nieation, and BaalitesWho are most like to be Balamites. in idolatrie, let popish sectaries carrie the bell. Doe▪ ye thinke wee hauehave forgotten what cleane birds, both cockes and hennes, were found▪ in the Abbey nests, in England p. 140at the suppression thereof? I say with Ambrose: Malim falsum crimen subire, quam verum referre: I had rather beare a false crime, then bewray a true, epistol. 44. Or think you, we know not what your owne writers testifie of the chastitie of your Clergie: as Constitution. Othon. in gloss. Clerici huiusmodi concubinas tenent communiter apparatu honesto nomine appellationis sororiae: Priests commonlie keepe such concubines in honest apparell, vnderunder the name of sisters. And in the same place: Videtur, quod hoc crimen meretricij ecclesia sub dissimulatione transire debeat: It seemeth good, that the church should dissemble and to passe ouer the crime of whoredome. These are more worthie the name of Balamites, then those whom you slaunder.

One of your late Councels thus complaineth: Videmus monasteria mulierum in pleris que locis in suspectas de int…m inentia domos, ne quid grauius dieam esse commutata: We see the monasteries of women in most places to bee chaunged into suspected hou…es of incontinency, to speake no worse of them: Coloniens. part. 10. cap. 9.

2. As for Master Har…ie, though I know him not, I iudge him the honester man for your unliking him. For as Diogenes said toforeign. one that railed vponupon him, Neither would any man beleeue me, if I praised you, nor you in dispraising of me: so I thinke your discommending p. 141of the Ministers of the Gospell, will bee of no more credit with the wise and discreet, then if I should commend you for an honest man, whom I know not. Your spite and enuie is most against those that labour in the Gospel, and striue against your superstitious doctrines: but God that hath hitherto strengthened vsus, will I trust open our mouthes yet wider, to crie out against your abominations.

3. It grieueth you, that women should be giuen to heare sermons, and to sing Psalmes: and I doe not marueile at it, for if you might hauehave your minde, both men and women should be as blind as beetles. You are like those, that Hierome speaketh of: Quam viderint pallentem & tristem, miseram & Manicheā vocant: If they see a woman pale and sorrowfull, they count her miserable and a Manichee: ad Eustoch. So doe you those women, that desire by the Gospell to be brought to true sorrow and repentance for their sinne. And doe you mislike, that deuout women should be well affected to the Ministers of the Gospell, and minister to their necessities againe? I will answere you with Hierome: Mulieres ministrant saluatori de substantia sua; ille qui de quinque panibus millia hominum pauit, escas sanctarum mulierum non recusat accipere: The women minister to our Sauiour of their substance, and hee that with fiue p. 142loaues fed thousands, refused not to receiue the prouision of women: ad Princip. It may be thought, if this disciple of Rome had then liued, hee would hauehave carped at our blessed Sauiour and his disciples, because they suffered women to resort to their Sermons, and to minister vntounto them.

Thus hauehave wee taken a view of his supposed contradictions, the third chapter followeth of this goodlie treatise containing pretended falsifications: I make no doubt but to hold him here also at the staues end, that he shall not fasten a blow: for wee feare not his slanderous tongue: as Chabrias said, A weake mans strokes, and an vnwise mans foreign.threats are not to be feared. And as Hierome saith: Possum omnes propositionum riuulos vno aaEcclesiae.veritatis sole siccare: I can drie vp the streame of his obiections with the sunne of the truth.