An Antilogy, Section 9
THE ANSWERE TO THE NINTH Section of the Authors defence to all honorable Ladyes and Gentlewomen.
The Defence.
1. I May not suffer the foundresses of so many Churches, Chappels, Aultars, Monasteries, Nunries, Colledges, to be reprooued for that pietie, pag. 107.
2. I can not suffer such a triumphant companie, so famous for miracles, renowned for sanctitie, &c. whose bodies many yeares after their death remained vncorrupted, &c. whom so many testimonies from heauen and earth hauehave confirmed to be most happie Saints, to be condemned, pag. 107.
3. Which for the louelove and honor of our religion, forsooke all temporall pleasures, &c. and became sacred Nunnes, as Edelburga, Etheldreda, &c. Alfritha wife to King Edgar, &c. Editha king Edgars daughter, &c. with many others which are there reckoned vp, pag. 108.
4. He vrgeth the fearefull examples of the principall Protestant Ladyes of England, &c. grieuouslie afflicted of God, and made dishonorable to the world, pag. 108.
5. In the next place, pag. 109. he seemeth to frame this argument, because the Ladyes of England in their daylie and new deuices, esteeme it not dishonorable to learne of the Ladyes of Italy, France, Spaine, and Rome: that therefore they should imitate them in their religion.
6. All your earthlie honors, titles, names, were either first founded, or afterward confirmed &c. by the Popes, Emperours, &c. pag. 110.
7. That religion defended your mariages to be honorable, and a sacrament; by that religion, your matrimonie was not in the pleasure of your Lords: repudiations and diuorcements at their wils were not knowne: concubines could not possesse the maintenance of your honors, their bastards might not enioy the inheritance, &c. pag. 110.
The Answere.
1. NEither doe Protestants reproue the ancient founders of Churches,Vntruth 201. Chappels, Colledges, for their pietie, but praise God for them: but for their superstition in erecting Monasteries to a false end,Abbeies builded to a superstitious end. for the remission of sinnes, and redemption of their soules: as King Offa builded S. Albons, for the murder of King Ethelbert: K. Ethelstane founded the Abbeyes of Middleton,Ex histor. Malmesbur. and Michelenes, to make satisfaction for the death of his brother Edwine. Elfrida wife to K. Edgar, Fox 149. col. 1.erected a Monasterie of Nunnes for the remission of sinnes, for the death of her husband Ethelwoldus: VV. Malmesb.as hath been declared before, answere to sect. 7. pag. 58.
2. We condemne not any, that hauehave been famous for sanctitie, renowned for true miracles, and witnessed to be Saints from heauen. But wee receiue not all those for Saints, that hauehave been canonized in the Popish Church, as Thomas Becket, that was a traytor to his Prince: and there is mention made in the decrees of one, that was worshipped for a Saint,Decr. Gregor. lib. 3. tit. 45. c. 1. that was slaine in drunkennes. And many of their miracles, as of Dunstane, Berinus, Bristanus, Brendanus, with others, wee hold be Monkish dreames and fabulous fictions: as hath been also before shewed, answere to sect. 7. pag. 55.
Vntruth 202. Fox pag. 157. col. 1. Fables of incorruptible bodies.Of the like credit are the tales of their incorruptible bodies: as that of Editha, that the rest of her bodie being consumed to earth, her thumbe, her bellie, and the part vnderunder her bellie were vncorrupted, the first for her pietie in vsing to crosse her selfe, the other for her chastitie. As that also is held to be a fable, that William the Conquerors bodie was found vncorrupt more then 400. yeeres after his buriall. The Papists themselues deride the tale, which is told from the Indies, of the bodie of Xauiere, Stow in VVill. Conquerour. Iesuit. Catechis. lib. 1. c. 17.which sixe moneths after the buriall looked as fresh, as when he liued. These are sillie arguments for one to ground his conscience and religion vponupon. And the Frier may barrell vp these fictions, to disport his Italian and Spanish dames with, our Ladies and Gentlewomen of England are more warie birds, then to be taken with such a thredbare Falconers stale.
3. Concerning those noble Ladies,Of the superstitious choice of Monasticall life. which became Nunnes: 1, the profession simply of Monasticall & single life, is not a sufficient argument of a good religion: for the Romans had their vestal virgins, that professed single life, the Iewes had their Esseni, that embraced a strict and solitarie kind of life,Menauinus de religion. Turcar. c. 2. and the Turkes at this day hauehave their Mahometane Monks, whereof there are foure principall orders. 2. And seeing most of them had a superstitious opinion of Monasticall life, as being a state more meritorious & worthie of heauen, therein they deceiued themselues, and with the Pharisie, that boasted of his righteousnes, of his almes and fasting, were so much the further off frō true iustification: and while they placed religion, in touch not, taste not, handle not, in superstitious abstinence from externall things, in not sparing the bodie, they followed the doctrines and commaundements of men, not of God, Coloss. 2.22. 3. Though in the choice of Monasticall life, they were conformable to the Romane Church: yet in many other opinions they dissented: for transubstantiation was not yet hatched, and many grosse errors beside, since forged by that blacke Smith. 4. Neither was Monasticall life then like to Popish Monkerie in these daies: their life more chast, their time not so idly spent, their superstition not so grosse. And that there was great difference betweene old and new Monkerie, some of their owne side doe beare witnesse: Multis persuasum est aliam tunc fuisse, quam nunc est Monachismi rationem: Many are perswaded, that the profession of Monks then, was diuers from that is now, Coloniens. par. 10. c. 1. 5. Lastly, let vsus see what deuout persons some of these women were, which are here rehearsed. Ethelburga wife to Edwine King of the Northumbers,VV. Malmesb. lib. de reg. was not the daughter of Anna King of Eastangles, but of Ethelbert King of Kent: neither doe I finde,Vntr. 203.204. that she became a Nunne: so here are two vntruths couched together. It may be, he meaneth another Ethelburga, the daughter of Offa, which poisoned her husband Brighthricus K. of Westsaxons, and fled into France, where she was thrust into a Monastery,Ex histor. Malmesbur. from whence for playing the harlot with a Monke, she was expulsed. This belike is one of his sacred Nunnes.Of popish holie and vertuous Nunnes. Etheldred being maried to king Egfride, refused to companie with him, and hauing beene 12. yeares maried, she forsooke her Lord, and tooke the habit of a Nunne at the hands of Bishop Wilfride, Stowe.(with whom she is thought to hauehave beene too familiar) whom her husband had before deposed: Was this one of your sacred Nunnes, that contrarie to the Apostle, the wife hath not power of her owne body, but her husband, 1. Cor. 7.4. refused to performe the duties of mariage, and chose rather to be a Bishops virgin,Fabian…. then a Kings wife? Alfritha wife to K. Edgar, was she, that caused Edward the bastard sonne of Edgar being King to be murthered, for which fact, she built two Nunries, and became herselfe a Nun: This is another of his sacred Nunnes. He telleth vsus beside of one Kineswida, or Kineswina: one of that name there was wife to K. Offa, by whose counsell and perswasion he caused Ethelbert K. of East-angles a learned and vertuous Prince to be slain:Ex historia Malmesbur. Let her go also for another of his sacred Nunnes. Are not our Ladies of England now much beholding to this Nunnes-Nouice, to propound vntounto them such examples to follow, and I am out of doubt (sayth he) no Protestant Lady of England, will, or dareth to compare her self with the meanest, &c. What not to compare themselues with whores and murtherers, such as some of these were? you are like soone to perswade with such sweete motions.
Vntruth 205.4. But more fearefull examples of the principall popish Ladies of England might be shewed, then any can be produced of Protestant Ladies: for the further euidence hereof, I referre the reader to the 33. yeare of Henry the 8. And yet this is a simple argument, to condemne the religion of Protestants because of afflictions: for by this reason neither Moses law in the desert, nor Christs Gospell in the time of Herod, when nothing but tentations, troubles, and afflictions waited vponupon Gods Church, should find allowance.
5 But it is yet a more absurd argumēt,Of Italian and Spanish fashions in apparell. to moue our Protestant Ladies to embrace the Italian or Spanish religion, because they follow their guise in apparell: Is it not enough for them to trip, but you would hauehave thē stumble and fall? If a man chance to drinke a cup too much, shall he not giuegive ouer, till he be starke drunke? because he is ouer the shoes, must he be needes ouer the bootes? They are not to be cōmended for the one, but they might well be condemned for the other. Indeede the Israelites first followed the East maners, Isay. 2.6. and then also receiued their errors: The land was full of Idols, v. 8. But I trust that English religion shall sooner deuour Roman and Italian manners, then these shall corrupt the other. And it ought much to moue our English Ladies, that they should not disguise themselues in the outward man after their fashions, whom they are vnlike in their inward conditions, not to imitate their conuersation, seeing they abhor their religion: as Hierome well saith, Aut loquendum nobis est, vt vestiti sumus; aut vestiendum, vt loquimur: Ad Furian.quid aliud pollicemur, & aliud ostendimus? Let vsus professe, as our apparell is, or be apparelled as our profession is, why do we promise one thing, and practise another? with Italian and Romish religion, let vsus shake and cast off all other Italian toyes and fashions.
6 And what if many honors and dignities hauehave bin confirmed by Popes, Emperours, &c. doth that bind vsus to be of their faith? them must we also be Paganes, for many Castles, Cities, townes, honors, priuiledges, were founded and erected by them, which Christians now inioy: If, from whom we receiue temporall benefites, we should imitate in things spirituall, neither should Iosias hauehave reformed religion, comming of idolatrous parents, both father and grandfather, nor yet the Apostles hauehave embraced Christs doctrine, being borne of parents obediēt to the Pharisaicall traditions, nor yet K. Lucius in England descended of so many Pagane predecessors, would hauehave receiued the Christian faith, nor yet Constantine succeeding in the Empire, so many vnchristned Emperours.
Vntruth 206.7 Though Protestants make not Matrimonie a sacrament, yet it is more honorable among Protestants, then Papists.Mariage more honorable among Protestants then Papists. Some of them call Mariage a profanation of orders, they forbid mariage to be solemnized at certaine festiuall times in the yeare, as not fit for such holie seasons: they hold Mariage betweene Infidels not to be firme, but that the mariage knot is dissolued, if either of the parties become a Christian: in these and diuers other such points they shew, that they hauehave no great reuerent opinion of Mariage.Sclaunder 207. It is also a sclaunder, that among Protestants Matrimonie is at the pleasure of the husband, or diuorcements at their wils. We only allow diuorce for fornication, according to Christs rule, not as the Church of Rome, that allow separation between man and wife for the louelove of Monasticall life, sometime with consent, sometime without, as Etheldred did forsake her husbands companie, and became a Nunne, as was touched before. They allow also separation of mariage for other causes, as for infidelitie, heresie: the Protestants then allowing but one exception of fornication, are freer from this accusation, then the Papists are. As for concubines and bastards, though all Protestants in outward profession can not be excused, yet they were both more vsuall in the popish Church. Many of the Kings had their concubines, Ethelbald his Iudith: Edgar had his Elfleda: Henry the 2. his Rosamund: Edward the 3. his Alicia: Edward the 4. Iane Shore. And he might with shame enough hauehave concealed bastardie, so much magnified in Poperie: The Papall Bishops set vp Edward, Fox. pag. 157.Edgars base sonne, and for that time put by Egelredus the lawfull heire. How many of their vnholie fathers the Popes hauehave been infamous for their concubines and bastards? Sergius the 3. had a concubine called Marozia: Popes concubines. Luitprand. Platina. Sleidan. lib. 21. Guicciardine. Agrippa de vanitat scient. cap. de. lenocinio. Sa…seuinus. Luitprand. Marullus Volaterr. geograph.Iohn the 10. Theodora: Gregor. 7. Matilda: Alexander the 6. had Iulia Farnesia: Leo 10. Magdalena: Paulus 3. Laura: Sixtus the 4. did erect stewes for both sexes: Paulus the third had 30. thousand harlots in Rome in a catalogue, of whome was gathered to their ghostlie fathers vse a monthlie rent. And as for bastards, they abounded in that holie See: Iohn the 10. was bastard sonne to Pope Landus. Iohn the 11. the son of Sergius the 3. by the famous strumpet Marozia: Innocentius the 8. had 16. bastards, whom he openly acknowledged for his children, whereas before they vsed to call thē their nephews: Alexander the 6. had also diuers basely begottē, as Caesar Borgia, Guicciard. Bastardie not rare in poperie.another Duke of Candie, and Iuffredus: Paulus the 3. had a wicked sonne like the father, Petrus Aloisius: Bloudie Bonner here in England had diuers base children, to whom he gaue in farme diuers of the lands belonging to his See. An hundred such examples might be shewed of popish Prelates, that kept their concubines, and filled the Church with bastardie. But would any man thinke, that this Ignatian Frier, so much misliking concubines, would not therein cleare his owne order, and discharge themselues of that crime whereof they accuse others? yet let vsus heare what one of their fellow Masse-priests reporteth: HaueHave you not beard I pray you, how not long since a Iesuite here in London erected a kind of familie of louelove, Manifestat. fol. 97. pag. 2.lecturing by night three or foure nights together, to his auditors all of women, and those faire ones for the most part? HaueHave you not heard of the night meeting for feare, at leastwise I am sure you hauehave heard of many, & do know some, who missing their wiues the while, hauehave scratched their heads where it itched not, and bit their lips. Therefore this obiection I returne, and cast it as his owne dirt vpō the libellers face: We may say vntounto him, as S. Paul to the Iewes, Thou that teachest another, teachest thou not thy selfe: And that old saying is verified vponupon him,foreign. He taketh vponupon him to be a phisician of others, and is diseased himselfe. Hierome well said,Hieron. Ocean. Perdit authoritatem docendi, cuius sermo opere destruitur, He loseth the authoritie of teaching, whose speech is ouerthrowne by his owne doing. And Menander could hauehave told him:foreign. That not the words, but the manners of the speaker perswade.