Reproof of Howlets Untimely Shrieking, Part 2 (2 of 3)
Hereby is it not hard to be seene, that I shut out of this account, that Apostaticall & vnholy Synagogue of Rome, by the titles before mentioned: as wherewith wee cannot ioyne our selues without renounsing the vnitie we hauehave with Christe and his holy vniuersall churche. And againe we must thinke that they that excommunicate, shut out, and cut of, from all Spirituall communion, and societie with them; outward and inwarde, leauing them without all hope of reconciliation, either in this worlde, or in the worlde to come, suche I say, as are of one religion, of one and the same profession with them: that as they hauehave doone and doe; so will no easiliar handle vsus hence foorth, seeke we peace, as muche as we will; and in vsus lyeth. The summe therefore of that we hauehave to rest vponupon, is; that walking in God his feare, in obedience, and charitie towardes all men, which is the effect of a Christian life; we so edifie our selues, and other with whom we liue in all godlinesse and honestie, that in Godly zeale, … with wisedome and humblenesse of minde, we take heed there whilest, least declining, or turning to much on one hande without neede, we seperate our selues from the societie of them, that approue and shewe them selues to be God his people, vponupon a dislike of some thinges amisse, that lie not in our power or hands to redresse; that bee priuate men; if the same bee not intollerable to be borne with: As they be when they plucke vp the very foundations of doctrine, and the rootes of Christian Religion: which doyng may be imputed to too much curiositie, selfe louelove, and wilfulnesse, &c. Wee hauehave to take heede on the other hande for all this, least by ioyning our selues vntounto thē, we receiue, approue, or … things confusedly; euē abuses yt do or may creep in, hand ouer head, as they say; wtout any distinction or differēce: wt may argue wāt of knowledge, zeale, & true godlines. When I would expresse full my meaning herein, I can vtter it in no betterEphe. 4. 1. 2. 3. &c. or fitter wordes, then the holy Ghost his, set vsus downe by that chosen vessell, the blessed Apostle, who prayeth Christians to walke worthy their calling whereunto they are called, with all humblenes of minde, meeknes, with long suffering, supporting one another in louelove, endeuouring to keepe the vnitie of the Spirite, in the bonde of peace. There is one bodie, and one spirit, &c. looke the place. To discerne and distinguishe therefore thinges aright, here needeth the Spirite of the Lorde, the spirite of wisedomeEsai. 11. 2. vnderstanding, the spirite of counsaile and strength, the spirite of knowledge, and of the feare of the Lorde; that may make vsus prudent in the feare of the Lord, &c. whereof the Prophet sayth: It shoulde rest vponupon Christ; who receyued the fame for the behoofe of his Churche, and vsus to1. Cor. 2. 12. be guided by. Wee hauehave receiued (sayth Saint Paule) not the spirite of the worlde: but the spirite which is of God, that we may know the things which are giuē vsus of God. And the Anoynting which yee receiued of him, dwelleth1. Iohn 2. 27. in you (saith Saint Iohn) and: Yee neede not that any man teach you, but as the same anoynting teacheth you of all things, & it is true, and is not lying, and as it taught you, yee shall abide in him. Agayne, our Sauiour Christ:Iohn 6. 45. It is written in the Prophetes: And they shal be all taughtIohn 16. 13. and 14. 26. and 17. 17. of God. A good and sure Schoolemaister is this Spirit of truth, to lead vsus into all trueth, to bring into our remembrance whatsoeuer Christ hath tolde vsus, and to redresse and direct our wayes according to God his holy woorde, which is the truth. God only vouchsafe to … our eares and to touche our heartes continually to heare, beleeue, and obey this truth. Thus much in respect of some certaine for their better satisfiyng (if it may be.) This matter, beside the scriptures; which may and ought to suffise; hath … and is diducted at large by some writers both olde and newContra Epistolā Parmeniani. lib. 2. & 3. &c. as they are called, where the same for them that list, may be seen, namely Augustine (in his writings aforetime against the Donatists and such like) wadeth herein very godly and wisely in my opinion; and such godly men in our time also; as write against Anabaptistes and ye like, that are infected herein: that I neede not to adde there vntounto: And besides I doe but here touch the same by the way, as a caueat to preuent or cut of cauill and quarrelling, if it may be, hauing rather to occupie meselfe in answering the … sarie at this time; as one, that what reason or answere soeuer other may be thought to hauehave, and to make; he surely & his fellow Romanists, hauehave very litle or none: as who may be thought to hauehave beene, in the orders of this Churche, sufficiently; if not too muche respected and borne with, nowe aboue these twentie yeeres: whiche may serue with all the worlde to our … and the States … here towardes these men: And that a through and full reformation of the Church, need not be forborne in respect of them: I woulde this great and necessarie matter might as easily be obtayned (which our sinnes onelyonly let) as it is not harde to answere, what euer those fellowes can nowe alleadge for them selues: Unto the examination therefore of this mans particular Reasons for refusall of comming to Church, I nowe turne my selfe.
THE first Reason, why I being a Catholike in minde may not goe to the Churches, or seruice of the contrary Religion, is: because I perswading my selfe, their doctrine to be false doctrine, and consequently, venemous vntounto the hearer: I may not venture my soule to bee infected with the same.
So that the firste proposition or grounde of this first reason, to make it in forme of argument: is this. No man that perswadeth himselfe, the doctrine nowe professed and taught in the Church of Englande, is false and venemous to the hearer, may venture his soule to be infected therewith: But eueryevery Romane Catholike is a man that perswadeth him selfe, the doctrine nowe professed and taught in the Church of England is false doctrine, and venemous to the hearer. Therefore no Romane Catholike may venture his soule to be infected therewith. First, Sir, such Catholikes as are of contrary opinion vntounto you herein (for whose sake you wrote this discourse) must you suppose, will denie one of your two propositions, & finde shifts to auoyde all your proofes, which will not bee harde to bee done for those of your religion: But let them shift with you as they and you can agree. I am no patrone of theirs: I will speake and answere to the matter. Therefore, to this first Argument or Reason, I answere, that it is vayne and naught, because it is grounded vponupon opinion, fancie, and ones perswading of him selfe, and doing after his perswasion: and not vponupon the matter and truth. Nowe these two matters be diuers, and doe differ much: I perswade my selfe, that such a thing is thus or so: And such a thing in deed is thus or so. The reason why, because one may be and to often is deceiued in perswading himself of things otherwise then they be: But the truth is alwaies one, and … not according to our perswasion, neither … thereon. What if one perswade himselfe yt he is a Prince, or hauehave a bag of money, is he so, or hath he it euer the more, or euer the sooner for that: neuer a whit sure. Or if one perswade himself there is a snake in his bed, shall he not sleepe neere it, or if your fellow perswade himself you go about to deceiue him, shall hee not trust you: Surely our doing or not doing of thinges, euen appertayning to this lyfe; to hauehave the same well done; must not depende vponupon our own perswasion, which is very changeable and vncertayne: but our perswasion to doe any thing, must depende rather vponupon the trueth and goodnesse of the matter, that wee minde to doe. Otherwise, one perswading him selfe that eueryevery man hee shall meete, will kil him, may not venture to goe abroad about his …, nor come in the companie of any man: perswading himselfe, that what euer hee eate or drinke poysoneth him: hee may not venture to eate nor drinke, for being …: And so within a while, die like a foole, and be guiltie of his owne death, because hee will not lay away his owne … perswasion: In religion and matters of …, is this argument much more … & vaine, as yt which hath …, and doeth from Gods truth and is the mother and nurse of all superstition and …. So as, if this disputer or reasoner, will needes grounde this argument or reason vponupon his perswasion: yet must he giuegive seaue to … the grounde of his perswasion, whetherFol. 57. in the 9. & last reason. it bee good or bad, true or false: And not say as he doth elsewhére that he will not dispute thereof, but howe euer that bee, the perswasion may not be done against, be it true, be it false. First rather let him prooue the goodnes & truth therof: else must he heare from vsus that whiche the Galatians, … themselues amisse, sometimes … from S. Paule: This perswasion is not of him that calleth you. &c. Galat. 5. 8.Or to shewe the vanitie of the reason in an example of his owne, alleadged here. Let vsus propounde that: If dame Eue (saith hee) had not presumed to heare the serpent talke, shee had not beene beguiled. But if shee; say I, (delighting in the tree forbidden, to satisfie her eye and desire)Gen. 3. 4. 5. 6. 13. 17. had not perswaded her selfe that the Serpentes talke had beene the trueth, and so (perswading her husbande also to leaue the truth of Gods worde, to beleeue fansie and … lie) brought him to obey her voice, as shee did the Serpents: they had not eaten of the fruite for bidden, and so had not wrapped themselues and vsus in miserie. Then the neerer cause and Reason whereby both Adam and Eue were beguiled, and the more proper that we neede not run farre off, was the false perswasion they had, and admitted vponupon the Serpents talke, against Gods expressed woorde and commandement, whiche, to make like your reason, thus I …: Dame Eue perswading her selfe the tree was good for meate, and to be desired to get knowledge, and her husbande by her meanes, the like: might not venture to lacke & lease so great a good & benefite; or might not venture … do the contrary, which shee, & he perswaded themselues was euill to them. Adde you the rest if ye like to make this a good Reason: for I answer you that it is very like to yours, and all one in effect; which is grounded likewise vponupon …, and that a false, vaine, and dangerous … contrary to the truth: the scriptures phrase … this case is good: I am perswaded through the Lord, &c.Rom. 14. 14. 2. Thes. 3. 4. &c. In religion, let vsus learne to speake religiously with this religious Apostle, &c. Remember I pray you that I am the answerer: and if …, yee can proue no better then thus, I suppose ye knowe the order of the Schooles, youAge Domi, ne alià ratione, Aut … disputationi. may be … answered, for all the great bragges bee made of your dexteritie and skill, in briefe scholasticall arguments. Because you are such a Reasoner, to conuince: and so great bragges is made of this Treatise, besides you say, your. … desire …, is onelyonly to giuegive some … to them in Englande, especially to her Maiestie, & the right honourable her counsel, the learned and wise in Englande, &c. I aske of you, ouer and aboue that I hauehave sayde (to M. Howlet your fellow) when you will make this a good syllogisme or Reason (you know what I meane) to conuince or to satisfie any yt is of a contrary iudgemēt vntounto you. I say not her highnes, & her graue and honorable wise coūsellers, which are not so easily led, as you in your muses and studdes imagin: but any meane learned man of a contrary religion, vnlesse one will suppose and imagine your propositions to be principles as your … doth, & so doubte of nothing ye say, or let your proofe bee an asking of the principle, which is Sophistrie, and no good Logique. Let…. your compagnions and fellowes tell you what they will, or let this argument and reason serue, those that are already perswaded in your false religion, and so neede no Reasons to conuince them. Summe; bragge or crowe like a Cocke vponupon your owne dunghill, as much as ye will, I that … but a simple rude man, not many a day of any Uniuersitie; and so not comparable with the learned and freshe Uniuersitie disputers, will yet boldely heere make you this offer, that keeping your propositions, if you make not an Elench or fallacion of this (I may say the like in the rest)Ex … particularibus … termini, &c. that is a starke naughtie Reason, or a badde Syllogisiue, consisting onelyonly of particulars, or of foure termes (as they speake) &c. Briefely, if you make in good mode and figure to prooue and conuince by, not faultie in matter, or fourme,… siue Medius terminus. or in both: let me be the answerer, and I will yeelde you the whole cause. You heare a playne mans offer: Buckle your selfe to it, take the vantage: but it wil make you sweat ere you come to the end, or can perfourme it, you must seeke a newe midle terme as they speake in Schooles, and newe propositions to confirme and proue your …, or else … with your owne fellowes onelyonly, and stay … supposition: but howe euer they easily yeelde to false propositions and …, wee can not suppose falshod to bee Truth, and … falshod: And sure, then can not … proceede in reasoning against vsus: to conclude, that you woulde hauehave false propositions, wee can not, nor will not admit. True will not serue your turne, you knowe the LogiqueEx veris potest nil nisi verum sequi. rule: Truth can not proue falshod, wee can defende easily enough against all Sophistrie in the worlde, that the Crowe is blacke and not white: And (thankes bee vntounto God for his vnspeakeable gyft) as it is harde for you to proue Poperie to be the truth, and Popishe religion to bee the true Catholique religion: So is it on the other side easie for vsus to mayntayne and cleare the truth, and the profession of the Gospel against all your cauilling Reasons. So as one might … at your impudencie, and with what faces you dare presume, to make your great bragges and chalenges in these learned dayes. But you are knowne well enough, you dare doe what you … to doe, and pretend one thing and meane another. I am the bolder at the entrance here to mention this, that the reader may knowe what he shall …, if hee list to enter into examination of your … and …: we see the foundation of your first Reason, howe darkely it is layed vponupon a false perswasion: whereof, if the reader list to heare farder what I say, he must hauehave … to that I hauehave written ther of against M. Howlet before, and you all, touching erronious conscience and the bonde thereof. Though the foundation of this Reason thus …, it may bee seene, that it can not …, yet let … heare what this Reasoner sayth therof further. Hauing … himselfe, our doctrine to bee false, and consequently venemous to the hearer, and so may not venture his soule to be infected: He rendreth a reason to conuince and proue I trowe: For (saith hee) as it is damnable for a man to kil himselfe, and consequently deadly …, without iust cause to put his body in … danger of death: so is it much more offensiue to God to put my soule, ten thousande times of more value then my body, in danger to the deadly stroke of false … & …, &c. Note this …, …. He doth wel to set his marginal note to expresse his meaning; we might else by his much more hauehave iudged it to hauehave beene a comparison, and so taken from another place in Logique, whereby thinges greater, lesse, or equall, bee compared together. But let that goe for the forme and kinde of reasoning in proouing matters, wee had rather heare of good, strong, and sounde proofes by Syllogismes than by weake …, but let that also passe. Let vsus take such … all argumentes, as are offered vsus. Prooue your similitude what it wil, and as well as it can, it prooueth not that you bring it in for, Note your similitude your selfe, and make the conclusion, and you shall fee, you prooue not that you propounded, but reason from one thing to another, orNon ad idem as they say. propound one thing and conclude another. It is an vnlikely likelihood for the matter it is to be applied vntounto: if you would hauehave made it like to that it shoulde prooue, or whiche you bring it for: Thus seemeth me should you hauehave made it: As a man perswading himselfe, bodily foode to bee infectious to his bodie or dangerous, may not vse the same: So in doctrine perswading himselfe that it is heresie or false, he may not heare and receiue the same, or some such way. And then hauehave I shewed the weakenes and folly of the argument before, and giuen example thereof, that I neede not repeate the …: I say good meate shall be wholesome: for the bodie, and necessary too; perswade men themselues therein, as they will: And the sounde doctrine of the Gospell heere professed and preached shall be much more wholesome and necessarie for the soule, to keep to your kinde of comparing, persuade you your selues therin as you list. The testimonies of scripture, &c. that ye alleadge, make nothing to the contrary hereof, … fully against you, and the venime and danger of Poperie and Popish doctrine and heresie. The very … of the text, with a religious minde, will … a … testimonie of your abusing the same, and your …, and your followers heerein. I maruaile not a little … you grounding this your first reason vponupon …, … in the same againe ouerthrowe perswasion. For after you hauehave cited in one text, by and by as it were, by way of obiecting and answering without farther proceeding, ye reason against perswasion: If your men at least per swade themselues in that they thinke: you will obtrude to your fellow and to vsus too, your perswasiō vnderunder the title of conscience, not to be done against, though it bee erroneous: yee will not let other, no not your fellowe rest in his persuasion. Bide the law you make to other. This is a very good touch to trie perswasiō and mens doings, by the scriptures. I would you would euer keepe that ground and trial in al yt matters in controuersie betweene you and vsus: That that which is done without warrant of scripture, or is against scripture, should be condemned & reiected. With this ouerthrowe we your perswasion here pretended: with this ouerthrow we al your Reasons & your whole religion, and kingdōe of poperie mightily. Popery yt is not grounded on holy scriptures nor followeth gods booke filleth mēs minds ful of vaine perswasions and their heades ful of ydle fancies, which they that stay them selues vponupon Gods holy word are free from, & their consciences clered. As for example papists promise them selues many good thinges whereof they are in the end disapointed, and so confounded, for that they hauehave no warrant from God nor assurance of his worde. Other limiting their hope, & keeping the same within the compasse of Gods worde and promise are not confounded, but enioye the same, and are blessed: Blessed are they that put their trust in him. Hope maketh not ashamed because it hath Gods promise going before. Againe, papistes and the vngod ly are afrayd where no feare is, hauehave a faintnes and cowardlines in their heartes, the sound of a leafe shaken, chasethLook Prou. 3 from the 21. ver. to the 27. Psal. 81. &c. them, in …; they entangle and snare their constiences, without neede, whereas they that obserue … and counsell, that is: heare Gods word, stay vponupon it, and followe the … as a light to guide them by, &c. are … from such feare and liue in great and godly securitie: Poperie it is alone and not Gods word that telleth them there is danger of infection in haunting our Church assemblies. For your allegations and proofes out of the bookes that are Apocrypha, which with you are as good and substantiall as Canonicall scriptures; No distinction is to bee kept. All is one with you, I will not now charge you, because the doctrine is true and agreeing to the Canonicall Scriptures and to be applied of our men. to you and your religion, as the rest yee heape together. And yet yee must remember, what Hierome in his prologues set before your owne translation of the Byble, sayth of that booke of Iesus the sonneHieronimus, in prefat. in libros Solomonis. & Prologus Galeatus. in libros Regum &c. of Syrach, and the like. It were no hard matter to take the staffe here out of your handes, and to beate your selfe withal As the diligent reader euen in this first reason may easilye perceiue. So fitly doe these testimonies heere alleadged serue vsus against you, and can by no means bee forced against … profession, you may carry a persuasion, to ground your reason vponupon; we shal hauehave ye truth & ye matter to ground ours vponupon. Let me in passing take an example from you, in answere for our dread Soueraigne and the States dealing here with you. You tell vsus of seucre lawes in the primitiue Churche, made for prohibiting of corrupt and naughtie seruice, sermons, and reading of like bookes: yee referre vsus for proofe to the Emperours Martian and Iustinian, and to the noble and zelous first Christian Emperour Constantine. What doth her Maiestie, other then followe those and like examples, in forbidding your popish masse. Your seditious bookes ful of poyson. &c. You say Constantine made it death, for any man to read Arrius bookes, and reason, say you. Are you angred that her maiestie dealeth not so with you and your bookes, which are like: If that bee the faulte, it may be mended soone enough to your cost, your Pope and Popishe heresie, is no lesse dandgerous and hurtfull at this day then Arrius was then. If you put her Maiestie in minde and call vponupon such lawes to be made heere nowe, … like cause you maye quickely make a rodde for your selues, the matter will hardely possible afterwarde bee … with wordes, or taken vp at your pleasures againe. If you can do no more; I counsel you yet to hold your peaces, sit stil and be quiet. For the rest, where ye thunder out against … Luther and iumble vp together the Professors of the Gospell in odious tearmes with other heretikes and sectaries of your broode (as which your M. Howlet in the beginning of his Epistle Dedicatory to her Maiestie, hath before confessed, that yee neede not father the same heere on Lut her) you doe but vtter your stomacke against Gods seruant in whom there were rare and excellent giftes of God: and with whom, and by whom, his spirit mightily wrought for the aduancement of the Gospel in these later dayes, shaking the very foundations of your Antichristiā kingdome. It were not harde to shew here, your errour many waies. Examine the doctrine of those ye name, and ye shall finde it was in the world before Luther was borne. Then maye you not say they al sprung of that first sect of Lutherans and they of Luther, So as if Luther had not beene heard there had not beene now in the world any of them, &c. Consult but with N. Sanders, and tell vsus from him whether AdamiansSanders visible Monarchie. and Adamites, Trinitaries, &c. were not, & their doctrine professed in the worlde before Luther was borne; how then sprung they all thence, how know you their would not be at this day one in the world of them if Luther had not beene hearde: M. Howlet sayth Wickliffe was one of the progenetours of some of these yee heere …, … hee was many and many dayes beefore Luther was borne. How then is that true you heere affirme; Heere is a large fielde to walke in, but let vsus passe ouer it. If in England at this day her Maiestie, and the … higher for their profession and religion then Luther. I … you will shut all them out of this heape of …; & not charge them to hauehave had the beginning of Luther, & sprung thence, otherwise you doe them wrong. But … doe so, that is, … higher: leaue therefore charging with these names, … deuised and called … by you. You playe …, … heede of … spirite that saide he woulde be a lying spirite in the mouth of the Prophets. 1. King. 22, 22Ye take vponupon you to tell, not onelyonly what had beene in the worlde nowe, if Luther had not beene hearde a great while since: But (as though you were yet nearer and more … of Gods councell, ye wrap men in eternall damnation yet aliue, and presume to tell what sentence shall bee giuen vponupon these and these men at the day of iudgement. Great and rash is your audacitie in this behalfe. It is happie Sir, you hauehave not euerlasting fier at commaundement to flashe and fling amongst vsus at your pleasure, nor a throne, yet set you, to giuegive sentence like a iudge in this case. You will needes be a Prophet, and you tell vsus what you hauehave persuaded your selfe: but we tell you againe, many a man persuades himselfe in his dreame of many thinges, … when he awaketh he findeth to be false and vaine, we yt stand by seeing you in a dreame iog you as hard as we can, wee put you in remembrance what he saith: Awake thou thatEph. 5. 14. sleepest, & stand vp … the dead, and Christ shal giuegive thee …. If that will not serue to doe you good, then for the … of others we say: The Prophet that hath … dreame, let him tell a dreame: and he that hath my word let him speake my worde faithfully: what is the chaffe to…. 23. the wheate, saith the Lorde: But Syr, if the talke of our side be so greatly to be auoyded, and it be so dangerous for you, your fellowes, and such …, to giuegive our side the hearing, whence commeth it ye so earnestly now seeme to sue to her Maiestie, that you may heare vsus talke, and reason the matter with vsus; for otherwise we cannot Preache, answere, or vse … a certaine space continuall speech, whervnto M. Howlet in all your names prouoketh. To conclude this part, we may iustly say to you herein, if none had giuen eare to the Serpentes talke in your Antichristian …, if the Church … a virgin, had not been presented to an other to be corrupted, but kept pure to her one and owne husbande Christe (as the holy Ghost by the Apostle witnesseth) shee shoulde be, as for whom alone she is prepared and …, if an other then Christes Gospell had not beene preached and receiued: Popery had not now been in the worlde, nor yet should the same be troubled with papists as it nowe is, &c. Let the Reader consider that whiche the Apostle writeth to the Corinthians, And let them that hauehave2. Cor. 11. 2. 3. 4. any zeale to Christes Churche here, shew and vse the same in cleering it from Popish corruptions, and restoring it to the simplicitie that is in Christe.
In the next and second Reason, you are muche in Scandale, I wel wote not why ye so purposedly leaue here that english worde of offence, but let that goe. Here you exaggerate, here you amplifie, here you set out the sinne of scandale like an Oratour. In a thing not doubtfull, you spend vnnecessary florishes of proofes, you paint and set out your iudgement to the ix. degree. And all of your scandale and scandalizing, vsing the same, in some textes where you finde it not, such louelove are ye in wt this new English worde scandale. And thus you reason: All scandale is …, &c, A … going to our … is scandale, … to be …, &c. As in the former reason, so here is it not hard to turne this in truth vponupon you and your religion, goe you vponupon persuasion and supposition as much and as long as you will. The thing is … and well done by the sacred scriptures of those of our … to … it vnlawfull to goe to your abhominable Masse, and Idolatrous, and superstitious Latine Seruice. I hauehave heere to answere your argument; in explanation and proofe of your first proposition, you are busily occupied, and deuide scandale into three partes, The first is, by … any to … by doing or saying that which is naught. The second, by doing a thing in it selfe lawefull; the thirde … the enimie. The whole is doone neither scholastically …, nor plainely: but let vsus admit this your diuision, and that you say of scandale in generall: Let vsus examine your Hypothesis, or second or next proposition, and the application of the whole particularly, wherein I tell you, you fault and faile. And I say, your second and middle proposition: ACatholikes going to our church, is scandale, is false, and you shall neuer be able to prooue it: For this Reason there fore, bend your self to doe that, or els you doe nothing. That you nowe say, doth it not. We graunt that for the first point, to giuegive offence by euill doing or speaking, in life, or doctrine, &c, is a heynous sinne, ye might hauehave spared your trauel in that point: we admit your examples one and other here, because they beset vsus in the Canonicall Scriptures, and agreeable to that heauenly doctrine. Your application is naught, It wyll be very right well, when, youBy … the … signified saith …. 2. 9. 7. nos. apply all to your side and corrupt religion. You are like … Priestes in the olde law, like the Moabites; you are Prophets like Balaam, and very like to Ieroboam. that ye cite out of the Scriptures in inducing to sinne, to Idolatrie and superstition, which is easily followed: and craftily vnderunder couert of wordes by you broched & couloured. The example ye bryng out of … no lesse perteineth to you. Cyprians very wordes well considered will prooue it: who in Christendome, bring vp their youth in ignorance more then you; Who persuade there the tender young children to be come Nouices in Monkeries, Nunneries Before they knowe what the matter meaneth, to vowe obedience, single life, wilfull pouertie, &c. to the vnspeakeable danger of their soules, as they finde in processe of time when moe yeeres growe. Doe you not knowe Syr, that in our religion there is catechising, and instruction in the principall pointes of christian religion, both in Churches and houses for the auoiding of this danger of ignorance and superstition; will the Pope of Rome, or your Popish religion take vp that exercise of catechising and instructing publikely and priuately now vponupon your admonition thinke you; I hardly beleeue it. There is much a doe here to persuade any of your side, that it is necessary for their children, seruants, and so foorth, and if they cannot themselues doe it, to send them to the Pastours of the church to hauehave the same there, for all her Maiesties, and the States godly care and prouision in that behalfe, and the continuall enquirie and calling vponupon by those, to whom that charge is committed. Can you for your heart, denie her Maiestie, her due commendation for this her godly care ouer her people; &c. You content not your selfe with this first kinde of scandale because this hardly serueth you, and yet herein is contained, you confesse, the proper signification of scandale. Ye comeRom. 14. 15. to the seconde point of scandale in a thing of it selfe lawful.I. Cor 8. 10. Looke how much the scriptures which ye cite, teaches vsus, so much we receiue; your addition and application wee receiue not: you giuegive vsus an example of a Priestes haunting dishonest and suspected houses, meaning honestly. This is your addition, though you giuegive much to your Priestes, and more libertie then to laye people in these cases, yet I tel you, I thinke it an vnlawfull thing for a Priest, to vse and haunt dishonest houses, and not so lawfull as you, vnderunder honest meaning, doe here cloke it to bee: you giuegive your Priests too large a scope to walke in, or else yee thinke too well of them, that they can hardely take hurt of any thing. The scriptures you cite in the first Reason, with many other make against this doyng of priestes in respect of God, the matter, and themselues; and not of Scandale to other only, as you here pretende, hauing the licentious libertie you giuegive them; they might easily washe away this blot of Scandale, … 32. q. …. & 4.if there were no more, yea they may lawfully, by your doctrine doe more than this vponupon their Ecclesiasticall Immunitie. T. dixit Sara. Intetio bona … factum excu. sat.In the sayd second parte of your golden Decree: Is it not noted & set out furder in ye margin that a clarke, embracing or taking a woman in his armes, is presumedHonest meaning with you …. to doe well? and that men should not be offended thereat, but iudge the best; Is it not sayd in your … there,Caus. 11. q. 3. absit in margine in Glossa …. If a clarke embrace or cull a woman it shall bee interpreted, that hee doeth this to blesse her withall; Is it not in an other place said by one of your men; Although groping… Distinct. 34. and kissing be occasions of naughtie behauiour in lay men, yet in Clarkes it is otherwise: for a Clarke is presumed…. glos. in margine. dist. 82. … in gloss. to doe these thinges of charitie and good zeale, &c. Heere is expressed your honest meaning sir, and shewed that many … are lawfull for your priestes, which caused that case to be noted vsus in your glose, and set out in the margin of your decrees in an other place also: Wantonnes sumetime hath more right then chastitie: and againe yet furder, they say now that no priest is to bee deposed for fornication, except he continue in it, and that because our bodies are nowe frailer then they were in times past. These & such be now the Immunities of your Clergy men. Of your third point of Scandale in respect of the enemie: I saye you take so much as you thinke will serue your turne, But you leaue out that, which if it had beene added woulde hauehave answered the whole in this case: for there is a Scandale in deede taken and not giuen, whereby too many are offended at Iesus Christ, his seruants, their doctrine and well doing: And so be there; that bee offended at godlye sermons, and at the going therto now a dayes. &c. But wee may not for the auoiding of this Scandale, leaue so necessarie a point of our saluation, as is the one and other. Nowe as I hauehave elswhere noted, our Sauiour Christ, wee see regardedMatth. …. not the offence of the Pharisees in a matter, as …, of lesse importance, and wee … not hauehave A better example to follow than his. So he that … by example, exhortation, &c. wife, children, freendes, seruan s, and other to haunt Church exercises here vsed, is so farre of from … his soule or theirs, as by abstaining or not doing hereof, he incurreth that danger, and by doing the same, doth a seruice agreeable to God, and but his duetie: & so answer I you for ye third also which falleth in … ye first point. Taking away your respect of worldly policie, for which if any man haunt our church assemblies, and not for religion and conscience sake, he greatly offendeth God and his prince our Soueraigne vnderunder God, abuseth himselfe, and the Lawes, & is disliked of al the godly, And herein you and we agree I trow, for the general end of cōming to church assemblies. For the seconde pointe of Scandale … you … comming to our Seruice, or Prayers, to bee: first we gather and must suppose, that if your Catholike offende that way, by your owne doctrine, his comming to our seruice, is a thing of it selfe lawfull, and of the owne nature not vncleane before God, but in respect of the lookers on. Otherwise hardly will your comparison and application proceed out of the 14. to the Romans, and the 8. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinthians: and how agreeth this with your whole discourse. Againe, where you say: They that knowe him in wardly to be a Catholike, will thinke him to sinne against his owne conscience, &c. We aske, how any should knowe a man inwardely, or his heart and conscience, which is proper to God to knowe; What man knoweth the thinges of a man, but the spirite of man that is in1. Cor. 2. 11. him. If you reply and say, you knowe him by his owne wordes, I answere, that where his deedes be contrary, that is no knowledge to iudge his religion by: In hypocritical Catholike religion: An hypocrite, and double man, doyng actes of contrary religion, may bee, and … a Catholike in religion, by his fayre speech and wordes, contrary to that he doth, and his example doe much with them that take him to bee of their religion still for his wordes sake, yea and knowe him inwardly to bee a Catholike (as you speake) which is more: In Christian and true religion contrary deedes waie downe wordes, for all the fayre shew, with true Christians: So as, but that you speake of your, Catholikes and Catholike religion, that is: of hypocrisie and hypocrites, whom that religion maketh such, ye might hauehave spared to talke of this kinde of men here. They that knowe him not (you say) as in deede no man doth furder then hee vttereth, and sheweth him selfe, must needes presume him to goe of conscience, and as a fauourer of that Religion and so be brought to like the better of that religion, and the worse of the Catholike by his example: You say true: This is (and if not, needes must bee) all christian and honest mens opinion of him, yea ours vnlesse he must be taken to bee the diuels childe, and of his religion. And then knowe you him inwardely to be a Catholike: a true Christian, or of Christes religion, and that we follow; we denie him to be, ridde him from vsus, and take him to your heape for his religion, if he bee suchy a one. You say Anibrose did accuse Valentinian the Emperour, for giuing a publike Scandale to the worlde, because he did but permit certaine altars to the Gentiles, saying: that men woulde thinke that he priuily fauoured them. Ye giuegive a good lesson to warne Princes, that bee professours of the Gospell, to take heede they permit Papistes to hauehave no altars to sacrifice vponupon in their dominions, for giuing the like offence. And for you Romane Catholikes, that sue for tolleration, for the free exercise of your Romane religion, may her Maiestie answere you, by your own rule and Reason. We thanke you, sir, for giuing vsus still so good weapons to beate your selues withall. This is your very case: Nowe, let the Reader applye and make his profite of the rest.
The thirde reason is this, When and where, going and not going to Churche, is made a signe … betwixt a Catholike and a …, then and there is it not lawefull for a Catholike to goe to the Protestants Churches: But so is it heere nowe, wherefore it is not lawefull, &c.
The first part of this reason he explaneth by diuision of the wayes, whereby the professour of any religion may be …, which he maketh there: by wordes, workes, and signe, hee setteth out the whole, by example of the Iewe in Italie, familiarly knowne by our English Romanistes, among whom the Iewe liueth in free profession of his religion, and therefore had neede to be distinguished from christians, by some markes: But among vsus heere in Englande where there is no such faction and diuersitie of religion by order of lawe vnderunder our gracious Soueraigne Queene Elizabeth tollerated, but all bounde to professe the true christian religion to Gods glory, and her Maiesties singular commendation: neither is there, neither needeth there in this policie, any such distinction deuised by mē, to seuer betwene religion and religion, that is: betweene truth and falshood, Protestants and Papistes, we content our selues with the notes and markes to knowe the professours of christian religion in Englande, which are set vsus downe in the holy worde of God, which also depende not on mens cpinions, nor are at their pleasure variable: but are stayed vponupon a … & better groūd. And therfore we returne thcse voluntarie marks & signes to note religiō, & the professors therof by, to you, to Rome, & to Italie, where volūtary religiō, or superstitiō raigne, & gaine is thought to be godlines. We thank God, and her Maiestie, for our freedom frō the same, and that we may liue at home in England in good conscience, and sincere professiō of Christes religion, without needing to runne into Italy, where there is suche danger to denie the christian faith, as yee tell vsus of. Looke, you English Italianates, to that, and other the like dangers that ye hauehave willingly cast your selues headlong into. And thus much concerning your first deuise in this reason, … that where telling vsus of a Iewe, yee affirme that to keep the Saterday holy day, is a work proper to Iudaisme: And againe, that … a christian yeelde therein, to vse the same, he sinneth greeuously, and in effect denieth his faith: Due might demaunde whether you English Romanistes, and such other Catholikes in Italie do … beare to keepe holy euen any of your late Pope canonized Saints dayes falling on the Saterday, for feare of conformitie with the Iewes in that behalfe: I weene not, Thē in an externall signe, as a yeallow cap wearing on the head, which is a matter of lesse importance: bee not too harde: wherein, though I thinke not the whole waight of our religion to consist, yet speak I not on the other side, as though I liked conformitie of the professours of Christes religion, to antichriste and his ministers, in any tokens and marks of their religion whatsoeuer: I speake heere nothing of your grosse prophane exāple of a Tauern bush, in liken ng the same to holy signes of religiō, which too prophanely, in my iudgement, yee byd the Reader marke, hee may also marke, that as yee make going to Churche to seuer vsus from you, and to distinguish our religion from yours, which is knowne by not going to Churche, or by abstaining from Church: so the haunting of Churche assemblies, argueth some religion to bee in our men, and that they carry religious mindes, and abstaining from Churche assemblies; which ye make a proper and peculiar signe of a true catholike, argueth as much religion as is in a Horse. For the proofe of the seconde part of your reason, that the going to Churche, in Englande is an apparant signe of a schismatike, and the not going of a catholike: It is manifestly to be proved, yee say: but it is not so easily doone, as saide, for vnlesse we will presume going to the Protestants churches to be hereticall, as you doe; and say a Catholike must so doe, which is starke false: your proofe will not goe forwarde. All is still grounded on your false supposition, and on the double and doubtfull taking of the termes of catholike and schismatike: Al is but hollow and double dealing; and belongeth for those wordes to the fallation of equiuocation, that yee may finde moe slights then one in your reasoning. Must the Protestant be a schismatik and a Papist a catholike, because you presume and thinke so: presume and thinke otherwise, and as the truth is, or at least, notwithstanding your presumption, giuegive vsus leaue to thinke and say the contrary as the truth enforceth vsus. But let vsus see, howe by presumption, you prooue going to Church, to be a peculiar signe; distinctiue, betwixt religion and religion. First yee prooue it by the commanndement and exaction thereof. You take vponupon you to make a Cōmentarie to expounde the proceedings heere. You make your self priuie of her Maiesties meaning and the Sates: you … imagine no other ende that men are commaunded to come to churche but to shewe themselues conformable to the religion heere professed. You might knowe (Sir) there be and may bee, diuers ends of one thing. Considering that God hath instituted church assemblies to the good and benefite of his people, if (to the end his Maiestie may be obeyed accordingly, and such commoditie reaped as is there to bee had) it be answered among the rest; bee the ende of the commaundement, of the exaction, and of the going to church, what hauehave you to say there against? Yf the Cōmissioners deale not onelyonly equally, but very mildely, and courteously, without too farre racking mens consciences, and hoping that in exercises of religion, and matters apperteining to God, men will not play the hypocrites: but hauehave farder respect then to make it an eye seruice: outwardly to satisfie and please the worlde, and knowing that comming to church, they shall heare and finde better matter of instruction, and so learne their dutie towardes G O D and their Prince, they moue suche as by you are peruerted, to come to churche; what cause hauehave you or they, to make such Tragicall adoe vponupon this vpright and fauourable proceeding? To playne of the seueritie, and suche cruell extremitie of this State, as neuer was hearde of in England before? &c. This confession of your owne mouth, greatly condemneth you. As you finde your owne religion to be but hypocrisie, so imagine you of the religion here professed, but amisse: For her Maiestie, and the lawes seeke not to make men hypocrites, they delight in no such: their meaning is, to hauehave men religious to God warde, and thereto tende their commaundements in this behalfe, &c. If you make, going to churche heere to bee a renouncing of Popery, and of your pretended catholike religion, as you say it is, we graunte, and we wish as many as goe to church to leaue halting on both sides or dissembling; to cast away that corrupt religion, and all superstition out of their heartes, to take a newe and better course, and to testifie by that meanes, and all other as they may, their religious and honest minds to Godwarde, & the worlde, which is so farre of, that wee thinke too bee hurtfull vntounto them, as wee iudge it a singular benefits, if they can consider thereof accordingly. Where, on the contrary part, we iudge their not going to church, or their going with another minde then wee hauehave expressed, not only to bee to themselues dangerously hurtful, and to others: but impious also and wicked before God. The other and seconde proofe, yee take from those of your owne side that are heere indurance: which being many in number and of long time suffering imprisonment, for this onelyonly thing, as yee say, doe make abstaining from church to bee a proper and peculiar signe of a true Catholike: For what doth make a thing to be a proper and peculiar signe, but the iudgement and opinion of men? Heereto you adioyne your example, of the Tauerne bushe to be the signe of wine: wee answere the similitude is vnapt and vnlikely, that is taken from signes and tokens of ciuill thinges appertaining to the vse of this life, which are in mens power and will to dispose and order at their pleasure: where it is otherwise, in cases of Gods true religion: for therein men hauehave not that libertie, but must take the holy signes thereof from the holy God: But you adde also your former example, brought with you out of Italie, of a Iewes yellowe Bonnet, and ye fetche vsus a thirde, out of Turkie, for to knowe a Turke and his profession, by his yellowe Torbant: which, and all the like, are vnseemely, and vnfitt to match in this case with the true religion of Iesus Christ. Let then the worlde, or men in ciuill and outwarde matters of this life, make their representations and signes as they will, let the like serue if yee will, among the Iewes, the Turkes, In fidels, Papistes, Whose religion is pleasurable, a will worship, and consisting, for the most part, in ceremonies and deuises inuented by men: Let them deuise and hauehave their proper and peculiar signes, markes, cognisances, and badges to bee knowne by, let vsus abstaine from the same: Let vsus content our selues with those that we hauehave receiued from the Authour of our Religion: Let vsus religiously frequent and vse the same. When our Sauiour Christ asketh: whence the Baptisme of IohnMat. 21. 25. was, whether from heauen or from men? He noteth fitly the diuerse fountaines, and beginning of signes in religiō. The example, of wearing a garlande in the Primitiue Church, wherewith out of Tertulian, yee amplifie the matter, perteyneth as litle to the purpose as the rest. For it was heathenishly & wickedly made by the heathen, a signe to distinguish them by, and to represent, their heathenish religion, to the dammage of Christians, and true Christian religion: marke that wee speake still of publike religious signes, not of other: in outwarde ciuill thinges, and for mens particular vses, wherein men hauehave more libertie, then in Gods religion and seruice: prophane or ciuill matters wee here deale not with. That such thinges hauehave beene and are from time to time, done by the diuell and wicked men, in wicked religion, is not harde to be founde, and that true Christians hauehave to abstaine from such markes and proper signes of superstitious and naughtie religion: as for example, frō your Popish ceremonies at this day may well and fitly bee prooued hereby, and farder can ye not stretche it, vnlesse ye coulde proue the haunting of holye Churche assemblies here, first and principally to proceede from men, or from the diuell, Which you shall neuer be able to doe. God himselfe being the Authour, and the same being sufficiently, grounded, in his holie worde. Make you, and your compagnions, of going to Churche here, what you will, and of abstayning there from: We make thereof, as God and his worde doe, and no more. If for your contempt of God, her Maiestie, and her wholsome lawes made for the abolishing of superstition and idolatrie, ye suffer any thing: Thanke your selues that so oppose your selues: Blame … God, her Maiestie, nor the State here, therefore: If for this onelyonly thing your men suffer: that they goe not to Church; then suffer they not belike for defence of the Popes supremacie, nor other pointes of Poperie: if they doe, then is it not for abstayning from Church onelyonly: which in deede is but a late taken vp scrupulositie among the moste of you: yet let all marke and obserue that ye here affirme and giuegive vsus, that the onelyonly thing Papistes suffer for here in Englande, is for not going to Churche, or abstaining therefrom. A worthy cause to stande with the Prince and State in, if all be well weighed.
The vanitie of the three next Reasons of Schisme, participation, and dissimulation, do I nothing doubt, but that eueryevery Christian can easily espie and answere the same: That therefore which hath been sayde before, being well weighed, I shall neede the lesse to tarrie thereupon. If this discourser coulde as easily proue it to be Schisme, to haunt our Churches, vsus to be Heretikes, and those hollowe hearted, that hauing afore time in the dayes of ignoraunce, been of their Popish religion, nowe haunt our Churches, which wee yet hope well they doe of synceritie of heart: If I say hee coulde as easily proue this, as he onelyonly affirmeth the same, and occupieth himselfe in prouing that requireth no proofe with vsus, wee shoulde hauehave more a doe with him. He is occupied in shewing at large howe bad Schisme and Schismatiks, heresie and heretiks bee, how to bee detested and their company shunned, what punishment they deserue and hauehave to looke for. &c. But that our religion, and we are such, and in this case: there is hee for proofe, in effect muet: And yet except that be prooued, not supposed onelyonly, the rest serueth to little purpose. For the vnitie of Christes Church we hauehave diligently to obserue, that as it is, and ought to bee with eueryevery of vsus precious, so to consider again that the same is grounded in the vnitie that we hauehave with our Sauiour Christ, & the father, without whom there is no sound vnitie: Further, we hauehave to note that it is called the vnitie of the spirit, for that it is begunne, continued, and kept by the spi: rit of God in spirituall and heauenly matters. And these two pointes be expressed in the very textes here cited by this Reasoner out of the Gospell and S. Paule for one … Iohn. 17. 21.forme of beliefe, one forme of Seruice, one forme of Sacramentes, Ephes. 4. 3.and the like that this man sayth, shoulde bee in Christes Churche, as it is very obscurely and shortly spoken, so I see no such … thereof: So we may hauehave the substance and matter, for formes we will not greatly striue. If there be any matter of importance, we like well the synceritie of Christian religion, and Apostolike simplicitie beeEphe. 2. 4. alwaies kept. The wayght & force of Christian vnity, lieth in deed in greater pointes than in outwarde formes, wherof1. Cor. 10. ye make mention out of S Paule, and may see more in the1. Timoth. 2. Acts of the Apostles, &c. Concerning the testimonies of theAct. 2. from the. 40. vers. to the end of the chapter. Fathers, we graunt with Irenaee: that heretikes that bring strange fire to the Lordes Aulter, that is, (as hee expoundeth) strange doctrines, shalbe burned, as Nadab and Abiu. They that rise vp against the truth, and exhort otherAnd againe, Act. 4. 32. &c. against the Church of God, remaine in hell swallowed vp with yt opening of the earth, as they about Chore, Dathan, and Abirom. They that cut and seuer the vnitie of the Church hauehave the same punishment of God that Ieroboam had. What is this against vsus? why may not the same bee applyed vntounto you, and your doctrines and dealinges with this Church: Let the Gospel and Spirit of life be the Piller and strength of the Church. Let it bee the foundation and Piller of our Fayth, as the same Irenaee speaketh.Lib. 3. cap. 11. & cap. 1. Doe not (as Irenaee sayth heretikes doe and we finde you to doe) who, whē they are reproued by yt scriptures are turned into the accusation of the scriptures themselues; as though…. lib. cap. 2. they were not right, nor were of authoritie, both because they are diuersly vttered, and also because the Truth cannot be found out by them, of such as know not Tradition, &c, and you will hauehave little vantage. Augustine also in his book or Epistle of the vnitie of the Church, against Petilians Epistle,Cap. 2. &. 3. &c. helpeth you and your case very little: For the question was then, where the Church was; whether eueryevery where or bounde to a certaine place, person, and sect, or no; As for example Aphrica, Donatus and Donatistes, then Rome, Pope and Papistes nowe. Augustine there tyeth the Churche to no Sea, maketh Christe alone the heade thereof, and the Churche Christes body dispersed ouer the face of the whole earth. Againe Augustine alleadgeth and prooueth also out of the holy Scriptures, as none can deny the same but hee that professeth himselfe to bee an enimie to the same Scriptures: Let vsus not heare, saith hee, I sayCap. 1 thus, thou sayest thus: but let vsus heare: Thus saith the Lord. There be verily the bookes of the Lord, to the authoritie whereof we both agree, we both giuegive credite, we both serue. There let vsus seeke the Churche, there let vsus discusseCap. 3. our cause. I will not hauehave the holy Church shewed by the doctrines of men, but by heauenly Oracles on infallible truth of God. Nowe adde your wordes that you heere alleadge out of Augustine, yet, so if it please you, as ye take the beginning of the chapter afore you, and so come orderly to your wordes here cited, which are after the beginning of the chapter: whole Christ, sayth hee, is the heade &Cap. 4. the body. The head is the onelyonly begotten sonne of God, and the bodie his Church, the Bridegroome and the Bride. Two in one fleshe. Whosoeuer dissent from the scriptures concerning the head himselfe (thus doe you, in making vsus two spirituall heades of the Church; Christ and the Pope) though they be found in all places, wherin there is a church to be pointed, they are not in the Church. And againe, whoeuer agree to the holy scriptures concerning the head himselfe and communicate not with the vnitie of the Churche, are not in the Church, because they dissent from Christes owne testimonie of Christes body which is the Church. &c. These be Austens woords agreeing with that is afore: that we learne to discerne and know the true Church of Christe aright by the scriptures and not otherwise: And that wee learne to beginne with Christ the heade, and so come downe to the Church his bodie, and keepe no preposte rous order. Now let the reader hardly reade and examine your wordes, and iudge of the whole, In ye eleuenth chapter of the same booke; of the vnitie of the Churche doth Austen notably write hereof. Touching Cyprian, Chrisostome, and the rest for the vnitie of the Church, we willingly admitte that they say, so as with Cyprian yee will saye, concerning false peace and agreement. That is no peace, but warr, neither is he ioyned to the Church that is separated from the Gospell, And wt Chrisostome, or who euer it were ioyned wt Serm. 5 de lapsis.Chrisostomes works, for them that will knowe whiche is the true Church of Christ; There is now no way to know ye same but only by the scriptures. &c. The ignorāce wherof brought foorth heresie, corrupt life, and mingled and turned all vpside downe. as Chrisostome sayth elsewhere. AsIn. 24. Matth. Hom. 49. for vsus; we ioyn with those that are built vponupon the foundationConc. 3. de … of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ him selfe being the head corner stone. &c. We broch no newe doctrine, no newe religion, we make no separation, But as we beleeue, that there is a Holy catholike church and a communion of Saintes; so, as members and partes we ioyne our selues to the same, dispersed ouer the whole worlde, in vnitie of Christes true doctrine, and in louelove and peace, with all reuerence. The Antichristian Sinagogue of Rome, as it reiecteth vsus with Christ and his doctrine, so againe doe we detest and goe out from it, as from that Babylon, whereof mē tion is so oft and much made in the scriptures. In summe, whether we be heritikes or you, Let Christ, let the worde iudge, and as many as thereafter and according thereunto list to iudge; and as much say I, of Schismatikes (in Augustines wordes thus, if you will) whether we be Schismatiks August contra. liter. ….or you, neither I, nor thou, but let Christ be asked, that heeLib. 2. cap. 85. may iudge or shewe his Church. In the application of this to vsus, and our assemblies, and to your men that haunt the same, yee say The communion of the Church confisteth in three thinges: that all christians hauehave one sacrifice, one and the selfe same seruice of God. There bee greater in warde spirituall thinges, wherein the vnitie of the Church doth … consist: In the vnitie of the spirit, one heart, one minde, louelove, peace, consent in one Christian doctrine, fayth, &c. But let vsus see these that yee thought, made for your purpose. What is the sacrifice yee meane; If it be that which Christ offered vponupon the Crosse to his Father for the redemption of the worlde, wee say it is common to all Christians, all are partakers of it, and we are directed thereunto contially, both by doctrine, and also by the vse of the Supper among vsus. If you meane the Sacrifice of your blasphemous masse, thē thank we God yt we are free frō it as frō a most abhominable blasphemie. The giuing vp of our bodies,Rom. 12. A liuing Sacrifice, holy acceptable vntounto God. &c. Heb. 13. 16. 15.The sacrifice of distributing and doing good, the sacrifice of Praise and thankesgiuing &c. These grounded on Gods word, & in vse among vsus: are belike no sacrifices, we hauehave no sacrifice at al, say you; none wt you but your massing sacrifice as seemeth; we are al made priests though, to offer vp theseApoca. 1. 6. spirituall sacrifices wherewith God is pleased. You hauehave of your selues, without all warrant of Gods worde erected a massing priesthood. Keep it, we bid you to your selues. Of Sacraments we hauehave in deede but two: Baptisme and the Lords Supper. As those which Christ instituted and lefte in his Church; we acknowledge not your number of seuen sacraments, for that the word warranteth them not. Those that Christ hath lefte, the lesse they hauehave of your superstitions and ceremonies: the more neerely they be administred, according to Christes Institution, the better is God pleased therewith, the better are wee contented also. Thus speaketh the holy Ghost of the benefite, and of the vnitie represented,1. Cor. 12. 13 & 10. 17. and bestowed on the Church in our sacraments of Baptisme and the Lordes Supper. In one Spirit are wee all baptised into one body, and hauehave beene all made to drinke into one spirit. And agayne, we that are many, are one breade and one bodie, because we all are partakers of one breade therhood. &c. Let the reader cōpare your translation withFraternitas vniuers. Hard. …. art. 4. …. 5. Cyprians or M. Hardings translation if yee will, to see your slight: then considering all circumstances; Let him iudge whether Cyprians time beare anie such orders and degreesIn sentent. Episcop Concil. as ye imagine; to be aboue a Byshop in those times. ThusCarthagine. ad …. & alibi. Tom. 1. concil. in. concil. Cartha. Aug. de baptsm. contra Donatist. …. 2. cap. 1. writeth and speaketh Cyprian in the assembly of many byshops in those daies, at Carthage in coūsel; which is also repeated by Augustine. None of vsus appointeth him self to be a bishop of bishops, or driueth his fellowes wt tyrannous feare to necessitie of obedience; seeing eueryevery Byshop according to his free libertie and power, is at his own choyse, as one that can not bee iudged of another, as hee him selfe also can not iudge another. But let vsus all looke for the iudgement ofVnus, & Solus. our Lord Jesus Christ, who one & alone, hath power both to place vsus in the gouernement of his Church, and to iudge also of our doyng. Here is more plaine wordes for the equalitie of Byshoppes in those dayes, and against that one Byshop shoulde bee iudge ouer all other Byshops, then can be pickt out of the other place for an vniuersall or generall Pastour ouer all, or thorough the worlde: yea, here is plainly shewed, there was no one Bishop of Bishops, or iudge ouer his fellowe Byshops in those dayes. And that the Byshop of Rome, was fellowe Byshop and Brother with therest, and so reputed and called. And let none cauill on that yt this Epistle was written to the Byshoppe of Rome, and therfore these words by a prerogatiue, are to be vnderstoodLib. 4. ep. 9. ad Florent. of him: when as Cyprian vseth the same testimonies, to shewe the dignitie and authoritie of a Byshop in his owne respect, and speaking of himselfe: and sayth, whence sprang and spring Schismes and …, but hence whilest the Byshop that is one, and gouerneth the church is contemned, by the proude presumption of certaine men, and a man vouchsafed with honour of God, is iudged of vnworthie men. This Cyprian, of himfelfe being Byshop of Carthage, whome though Christians seemed then to nameIn vita Cypr. their Pope, as is reported, yet I thinke these men doe not nor will not accompt him general Pastour of all the world, nor to hauehave such preeminence and prerogatiue as they chalenge to the Pope at this day heade of the Church, &c. For al this: Rome must needes hauehave that alone, he nor none els shall hauehave it. It is not the worde of one Byshop, wherewith Cyprian here calleth himself, much lesse of one Priest, as this Reasoners place reporteth, that will enforce, that he woulde gather; or such iurisdiction and authoritie as he imagineth: where findeth hee one generall Pastour ouer al the worlde? not here sure. Is not your general Pastours soueraintie, yt you dreame of, grounded on Peters supremacie, whereof there is not one worde in all the scriptures: and doth not this noble Martyre, Saint Cyprian aboue thirteeneDe …. Prelat. hundred yeeres agoe, say thus of the Apostles: The rest were that, that Peter was, endewed with all honour and power: and after him another Father, speaking of the Byshops, sayeth: where euer they bee, they are of one andHieronim. ad euagrium. the same merite or estimation, and of the same Priesthod and Ministerie. The whole brotherhood, was that particular congregation, where hee was Byshop, of whom hee treateth, were it the Bishop of Rome, or any other Bishop. For there is one Bishopricke, a part whreof is throughly holden of eueryevery one in particular saith Cyprian: but letDe simpli. Prelat. Cyprian and his place goe, which is at large answered by other, for them that list to see more: Let this man if he will gaine his cause against vsus, reason soundely out of the scripturs and booke of God, which he can not doe, and that maketh him to seeke these outleapes: But when all is sayde, the best and surest holde for this generall Byshop ouer all, is that wicked Emperour Phocas and his authoritie, and gift to Boniface a pope of Rome, many C. yeres after Cyprians time. Considering the course that this Reasoner holdeth: howe easie it is to answere all that he bringeth foorth; and that the same is alreadie answered elsewhere, by diuers in their bookes, and lately, by a godly and learned brother, for troubling the reader ouer long, and not to repeat one & the same things oftē: I wil leaue these three reasons, of Schisme, Participation with heresie, and …, after I hauehave noted a worde or two there of more, till these men can alleadge some sounde proofe that wee are, that which they bee: that is Schismatikes, and Heretikes: For Dissimulation, as we louelove plaine dealing, and Christs Religion, and the truth is ioyned with a godly simplicitie, so hope we well that thase that come to Church aslemblies here, doe the same with a single and vpright heart, wee sitte not in their heartes and consciences, we knowe not what is in them. Which thing if they doe not, they hauehave learned their dissimulation in Poperie, and not in Christes schoole, nor of ye profession of his Gospel. Though I send not them quicke to hell with this discourser, as I hauehave said, yet surely are they to be reputed very bad folke, so as hardly can there bee worse commonly among men, especially in cases of religion: let them examine themselues by the holy scriptures, learne their duetie thence, and repent in time, else will they bee founde neyther true seruantes of God, nor duetifull subiectes to her Maiestie in the ende, nor yet good common wealth men. God giuegive grace to consider hereof, & to shame the diuell: wee eyther iudge them not, or iudge the best, and charitably of them. I maruell not a litle at these words of yours in the latter ende of your Reason of Dissimulation, many a thousand now in England, being as throughly perswaded in heart of the trueth of the Catholike religion, as the Apostles and other Christians, at that time (that is in the time of the Apostles) were of theirs, are cō tent not withstanding to heare, digest, admit, and execute all or most parte of these thinges: recited contrary to the sayde religion. Here yee liken together the Apostles and olde Christians, and many of your Catholikes nowe in Englande: the Apostles and Christians religion then, and your catholike religion nowe, and you shewe these mens vsage to be vnlikely and diuerse, in sticking to these two religions. By the way heere I note, that your Catholike religion, and the Apostles and christians then, bee two religions, and diuerse, else yee speake veryeComparatio … interdiuersa, & simile non est idem. …. But let that goe, howe can you, or any in englande, be as throughly perswaded in heart of your Catholike religion nowe, which is false, and not only net grounded on Gods worde: but contrary thervnto, as the Apostles and Christians in the primitiue Churche were of theirs, which had God and the Scriptures for their grounde and warraunt. Though a house buylded on the sande, may hauehave a faire shewe: yet in strength, for want of a good foundation, it can neuer be so strong as that which is buylt on a Rocke: He that heareth Christes woordes and doeth theMat. 7. same, is like a wise builder on a Rocke. I wis, he that heareth your Masse, Mattens, &c. is farre off from that. … in blindenesse may be easily gathered thereby, and a senselessenes, whereof commeth no good, but muche hurt: As the contrary commeth by hearing Sermons, and preaching of the Gospell. Constancie and a good conscience, is rather lost then retayned, much lesse gayned or encreased by your blynd and superstitious religion. You run to your olde starting hole of perswading your selues, bee it ryght, bee it wrong. But to hauehave a true, a sounde, and a good setled perswasion for religion and matters of conscience, it must be stayed in heauen, it must be warranted by Gods holie worde and Scriptures (whiche you, for your religion, are distitute of) els can it not be. I will … say so thorough as the Apostles, &c. But in truth not good, nor to bee trusted vntounto.
Your seuenth reason, is, that our Gods seruice is naught, and dishonorable to God, and therefore must be abstained from.
Surely you say somewhat nowe, if you coulde prooue that yee say, this is the first, the last, and all the reasons that are worth the examining, the foundation and grounde of all the rest. Let vsus see therefore how you goe about to prooue this point, forsooth at the first entrie, ye leaue of your proofe and fall a confuting of our reason before you prooue the matter: One may perceiue it is easier with you in wordes to finde fault, then in deede to mende it, or iustly to shewe where and wherein the fault lyeth, that other might mende the same. The Scriptures lye in your way like a shrewd blocke, yee thinke good therefore first, to assay to remooue that, and then to proceede in your purpose after. Handeled Dratour like, with your figure accordingly, but florishedOccupatio. at, in deede, rather then any thing els doone. That wee hauehave the Bible and the Scriptures so familiar, and so strong on our side, that offendeth you, that angreth you, that hindreth your purpose greatly: But we thanke God therfore highly. Burne the Bibles, and burne them againe; fume, and fret, rage, and doe what you can: yet bidding battaile to God, he will be founde stronger then you, and yee shall not pruaile. Alas poore scripture, is that it so offendeth you; it is the swoorde of the spirite. It bringeth vsusEphes. 6. 17. many, yea infinite other necessary and vnspeakeable commodities, we cannot forgoe it sir, wee are vtterly vndoone, if it be takē away from vsus. I pray you giuegive vsus leaue to hauehave it, and to vse it. Can you not prooue our church assemblies naught, but you must impugne and disgrace the scriptures; Must you needes beginn, and make entrance there; Happy for vsus, vnhappie for you. A happie turne for vsus; that wee and our cause; nor our God his seruice, cannot be foiled, but with the scriptures: an vnhappie matche for you, but euen to mislike with Gods booke! What woulde you hauehave vsus, to commend our God his seruice with better then the Scriptures; Wee that are Christians, like that better then traditions, and inuentions of men, which you here talke of veryLooke for this purpose the place I tited before in the fourth reason of schisme out of Irenaus lib. 3. cap. 2. cunningly quoting vsus Augustine in the Margin, as though hee in those places condemned Scriptures, to contmende traditions, which is neither so nor so, as wee shall see after by examination thereof. Take you therefore these traditions and leaue vsus the scriptures, so we may feede … pure fine wheate, eate your Cods, huskes, chaffe, and what you will: Ye are nowe in the matter in controuersie betwene vsus, we confesse. It hath been the question betwene Papists and Protestants, that is, betweene you and vsus, full these threescore yeeres now together: who shalbe yt iudge to decide ye matters in cōtrouersie betweene vsus, we say the holy Scriptures, and woorde of God, wee appeale to that: you say no, not the Scriptures, by any meanes. It is the Heretikes booke, let the writinges on both partes be perused for proofe and try all heereof: but let vsus goe forwarde wt this reasoner. If our seruice being full of scripture, (as yee say;) it bee no good argument that the same is therefore infallible good; I pray you let vsus know the good argumēt ye wil proue your popish Latine seruice infallible good: It is cōtrary to ours, & ours to yt; an argumēt taken of the contrary, will serue (it seemeth) your turne, that is: your seruice is therefore infallible good, because it hath no Scriptures, or is contrary to the scriptures, as it is in deed shewed plainely and plainly, if not to you, yet to all those that hauehave any eyes to see, eares to heare, or heartes to consider2. Tim. 3. …. 19. thereof. The whole Scripture, sir, is giuen by inspiration of God, and is profitable to teache, to improoue, to correct, and to instruct in righteousnesse that the man of God may bee absolute, and made perfect to all good workes. Good is the Scripture, nothing but good, eueryevery way and most perfectly good. As bad as your seruice is, yet for shame, coulde your men not call it God his, or diuine seruice, without taking some patches of the Scriptures, to commend the same withall. If ours hauehave more scripture and in better order, as in deede not dalying therewith: at least let it not be blamed therefore, finde some other faulte in it. Let not the Scripture make our seruice like to wicked seruice for that respect, and vsus in it to be like Iewes, Heretikes, and the Diuell, and his talke with Christ (so ye speake) vnlesse yee can make it for some like respect, and in such sense, as Christes comming to iudgement, is to a theeues soden comming, and at vnawares. And then shall it not be preiudiciall to vsus, nor to our god his seruice, nor auaile or help your cause. But I am not carefull to expoundAugust. Tom. 6. Contra Maxim. lib. 1. Initio, & versus …. your meaning, that meane as seemeth, very vnhappily, I pray you set vsus not to make Apologies or prayses of the Scriptures nowe. You cite Augustine, that it was alwayes the fashion of heretikes to hauehave scripture in their mouth, and to cleaue only to scriptures, and to refuse traditions as inuentions of men; though we bee not bounde to Augustine: yet wee aske you where Augustine hath it; Yee say against Maximinus, wee tell you as wee are inforced still to do, that you say vntruly. Augustine findeth no fault with ye Arrian Heretike there, for citing or vsing ye testimonies of the scriptures, but for abusing the same. For hee himselfe entreth that combate with the Arrian Bishop, and by scriptures confuteth Arrianisme: Augustine graunteth that the Arrian Bishop vseth the true testimonies of God his Scripture, which is more then we can graunt you Papistes now adayes: which for your sluttish handeling & false allegation of Scriptures, shewe your selues worse then ye old Heretike, who corrupted not nor peruerted the holy Scriptures: but the faulte that Augustine chargeth him with, is that he woulde prooue thereby, saith he, theirRatione 1. false doctrine of Arrius, concerning Christe his diuinitie:Ex falsis falsum, … sequitur. which is not possible to doe. God his true scriptures can not prooue any false doctrine: The Art of Logicke wouldeEx veris … sequi teache you so much, as I tolde you before. This is the abuse then that Augustine reprooueth, and wee with him, yea with God, Christe, and all the Godly: that where Arrius doctrine was directly contrary to the scripture, with sophistrie, glosing, and other shiftes; hee woulde goe about to maintaine the same, and hale in the scriptures by the haire, as they say, to seeme to prooue that which they condemne, whome; and his wrangling, Augustine by scripture, and by no other meanes confuteth. Wee are no Arrians, we are not, nor will not bee Heretikes, shewe that wee doe abuse the scriptures, as to ouerthrowe Christs diuinitie thereby, or to establishe diuelish doctrines, deuised by our selues, or taken from other men as you doe, or els forbeare to liken vsus, and our God his seruice, to wicked Iewes, heretikes, and Diuels; What you are, and your behauiour, let your doinges tell: whereof (as occasion serueth) euer and … I giuegive the Reader a taste: here in this reason is (among the rest) some sparkes of your modestie, commended by your fellowe M. Howlet to the s kie, in his Preface to her maiestie to discerne a Sectarie by his spirite and proceeding. Because you cite Augustine heere against Maximinus an arrian Bishop and heretike, and the first booke: I wish ye learned Reader to looke on ye place to see your cunning, or sleight rather; Augustine pressing the heretike to declare his faith of the father, the sonne, and the holy ghost, the Heretike ranne, as to a starting hole, to a councell of many Bishops, saying: hee beleeued as they beleeued, this is your maner aright, you knowe your diuinitie tale I am sure of the Collier and the great Clarke his scholler, commended and set vsus downe by your side, as some heauenly Oracle. Howe beleeuest thou; Answere, as the Church beleeueth: and howe beleeueth the Church; answere, as IHosius. beleeue, further woulde hee not goe, but still repeate that,Aug. contra Maxim. lib. l. initio. and this was no table for that great doctour and Clarke to marke, and carry away for his vse, and to teache other. But Austen heere checketh the heretike for that answere, andThe righteous shall liue by his owne faith Habacuk. 2. 4. biddeth him expresse his owne faith. Howe hee beleeueth, and not runne to the councell of Ariminum and name that. The words are these, Augustine saith to the heretike:Where is … Implicita … then. Tell me thy fayth of the father, and the sonne, and the holy Ghost, Maximin. the heretike answereth: If you aske my fayth, I holde that faith which at Arminium, was not onelyonly expounded, but also by subscriptiō confirmed of three hundred & thirtie Byshops. Here was a counsel of a great many moe byshops then were at your Trent meeting) Augustine sayth, I sayd euen nowe, and I repeate the same because thou wouldest not answere me, Tell me thy fayth, of the father and of the sonne, and of the holy Ghost. &c. And by and by after therfore I sayde thou wouldest not answer because whilest I required that thou shouldest tell me thy fayth of the father and the sonne and the holy Ghost. which I yet now aske, thou hast not tolde me thy fayth, but hast named the Councell of Ariminum, I would know thy fayth, what thou beleeuest, what thou thinkest of the father the sonne and the holy Ghost. If thou wilt vouchsafe,I beleeued therfore hauehave I spoken. let me heare it of thine owne mouth; Sende me not to those writings which eyther are not nowe heere present, and ready, or I am not bounde to their authoritie, &c. …. Cor. 4. 18.No Augustine; what; not to a Councell and that of so many Byshops; No in deede neither to Councell nor multitude, but to the scriptures onelyonly. And therefore against the same Maximin: he sayth afterwardes: neither ought I preiudiciallyAug. contra Maximini. to bring forth now the Councell of Nice (whiche made for Augustine and was the first most famous generall…. 3. cap. 14. Councell after the Apostles time) Neyther oughtest thou to bring foorth the Councell of Ariminum (whiche wee hearde euen now the heretike alleadged for him) I am … bounde to this councels authoritie (sayth Austen) nor thou to the authoritie of that Nicene Councell, No Augustine; Againe I say not bound to the Nicene Councell, No verily: Let matter with matter (saith he) cause with cause, Reason with reason pleade by the authorities of the scriptures, not proper witnesses of eueryevery bodie, but common to both. &c. This am I the bolder with the Reader, to set downe, that we may see your skill and trust in citing the fathers, If one should followe all, he should make great volumes, which I doubt whether for your pleasures, it bee necessarie For the diuels talke with Christ, how I pray you did our … confute him; was it not by the … afore I sayde Augustine did the heretike; Yes, yes, still: and all by the scriptures, so necessary and profitable … are they, say or thinke you what you will. Though we finde not for that which followeth the wordes in Hierome, where ye sende vsus to seeke them, yet becauseHierom in cap. 4. & 8. Hose. it may be the fault of the Printer, I presse it not, you shoulde hauehave prooued and shewed vsus to be heretikes, before ye should hauehave applied that to our seruice: supposition is a bare proofe and serueth not: The strange howling, as of wolues and bellowing noyse of mad Bullockes that in your Synagogues you make, by your piping and singing in a strange tongue, in that you call your diuine seruice, seemeth to bee liuely expressedHier. in. cap. 7. Hose. by Hierome both in this sentence, and elsewhere also when vppon these wordes of the Prophet Amos: TakeHieron in cap 5. Amos. from me the confused noyse of thy Hymnes, I will not heare the musicke of thy Organes (that worde doeth Hierome set downe, according to the Septuagints translation) The Prayer sayth he, of the Iewes and the Psalmes whiche they sing in their Synagogues, and the heretikes curiousComposit …. and set hymne or prayer (as one would say artificially doneLaudatio. with descant and quauering) is a trouble vntounto the Lord, &In tragidor … modum Theatrales modu li. that I may so speake; it is the grunting of a hog, and the braying of Asses, &c, And in the new Testament, vponupon these wordes of the Apostle: Singing and making melodie vntounto the Lord: Let them heare (saith Hierome) whose office itHieronim. lib. 3. in epist. ad Ephe. cap. 5. is to sing in the Church; that God is to bee sung to, not with voice, but with heart: and that their throate and iawes are not to be annointed and cleered with oyntmēts like players, that (measure and stagelike noise and songuesforeign You know the meeter. maye by hearde in the Churche: but in feare, in deede, in knowledge of the scriptures although there be some manNon vox, sed votū, nō chor dula musica, sed cor non cantans, sed amans cantat in aure Dei. as they are wonte to speake of an euell brest or voyce. If hee hauehave good woorkes hee is a sweete singer with God, Let the seruant of Christ so sing, that not the voyce of the singer, but the wordes that are read, may delight and please, &c. Thus much out of Hierome whome ye cite vponupon occasion of wolues howling and the bellowing noise of mad bullockes, that the reader, may see whether the same and the like agree better, with your curious pricksong and descant in your latin seruice, or with our moderate and plain singing of Dauid his Psalines in the mother tongue. Hee…. Agrippa De incertitudine screntiaram. Cap. 17. sub finem. Annotation. …. in. 1. Cor. 14. Polidore. Virgil. de Inuentorib. …. that is desirous to see more, how fitly your wanton and fleshly melodie, or roring rather in your Popish Churches is represented by Hierom. Let him looke vponupon Cornelius Agrippa, Erasmus, Polidore Virgil, and such like: who euen in our time so great plained of yt vnreasonable & brutishe disorder in your popish Churches, and namely heere in England, for that is by expresse wordes noted of Erasmus. Yeelib. 6. Cap. 2. &c. cite Augustin here twise together, and still of the Donatist Heretikes, it was the first place ye cited in the entrance of your discourse, how litle to purpose we there examined: wee tel you againe & again we are neither donatists nor other heretikes, that shoulde you hauehave bent your selfe first to hauehave prooued, that these testimonies might hauehave seemed to hauehave beene … applied, as that vnprooued (and so is like to remaine) they iustly maye nowe bee applyed to you. Betweene your two places here alleadged out of Augustine. the same Augustine vponupon the words of Dauid: I cryed vntountoAugustin in Psal. 54. the Lorde, sayeth well (and that to the Donatiste): Crye you to the Lorde, not to Donatus: So say we to you popishe Heretikes: Crye to the Lorde, not to this Patrone, and that, which you hauehave made to your selues, not to this canonized Saint of your Popes, nor to that (whereof some, like ynough, are farre from heauen, and so from helping of you) Take the lustie prelate of Englande, Your S. Thomas Becket for example, if ye will, or some such like Saint of your making: wee say as Augustine sayde in his dayes, according to the perpetual doctrine of the sacred scriptures: Crie vntounto the Lorde, not to any creature: wee adde furder with him euen in this place: Let no man be thy Lorde, for the Lorde; (hee meaneth in steade of the true Lorde of heauen) which vnderunder the Lorde woulde not bee thy fellowe seruaunt, Whether it bee in heauen; Let God in prayer be …, per se, A, as they say: Or vppon earth, to shut out your Lorde god the Pope, and to bring him to bee but a fellowe seruaunt, with other. Let that God of heauen keep his prerogatiue, or else bee you (in exalting and setting vp that man of sinne) Heretikes with the Donatistes. Briefly, to shut vp this place, finde no fault with our seruice, for that it hath the scriptures, and put a difference between the Iewes, Heretiks, and the diuelishe peruerting and abusing the same, and the right vse thereof, with reuerence to our instruction and learning, that through pacience and comfortRom. 15. we may hauehave hope, which is an ende the Apostles setteth vsus down, the same to be written for: Let it in all things be A lanterne to our feete, and a light to our path, as holyPsam. 119. Dauid speaketh: For which causes also, the same is nowe105. Nun. published and made common vntounto vsus, by her Maiestie, and the State, Marke the great benefite the Churche of God here hath reaped thereby, and still doth: and yee shall shewe your selfe, besides your impietie to Gods worde, very vncharitable and enuious, to grudge vsus the Scriptures, or to reproche the same vntounto vsus. Nowe, whether wee be Heretikes, that sticke to the scriptures, and to the sincere, plaine, and sure interpretation therof by themselues, that one place may sufficiently expounde another, that wee neede not run to men, to hauehave the true sense, but to let the holy … euer expounde himselfe: Or you that cannot, nor will not bee content with this, but call for this doctours exposition: that doctours sense, and so foorth rouing and running at randon, if the worlde may not be iudge, yet I pray you let your owne Cannon Lawe be iudge betweene vsus: Wee must take the sense and meaning of the Truth, out of the scripturesDistin. 37. Relatum. themselues, sayth Gratian, out of Pope Clement. And yet furder out of Hierome: Whosoeuer otherwise vnderstandeth the scripture, then the sense and meaningHieronym in 5. Cap. Gala. of the holy Ghost, by whom it was written, requireth: Although he be not departed and gone out of theLib. 3. q 3. Churche, yet may hee bee called an Heretike: and it isHaeresis. among the workes of the fleshe, chosen those things that are the worse, &c. Wee knowe the Queenes coyne by the stampe, by the Image, by the inscription, if it carry not that marke wee may lawfully refuse it: euen so in the matters and truth of God, &c. But it is time to proceede with you.
After you hauehave thus declamed agaynst the Scriptures in our seruice, you goe about to recken vp all the faultes ye can imagine to bee therein, which in a bedroll yee recken vsus vp to be in all, about sixe: whereof you make two heads, one the thinges that be in it, the other the thinges it wanteth. It is happie yee can spie no moe faultes in particular but sixe: Surely, your Latine seruice, were lesse daungerous and hurtfull, if a man coulde in the whole, finde but halfe so many good thinges, amongst an infinite number of faultes, nay the whole must needes bee, not in part altered but quite vndone, reiected, and newe begunne againe, or els wil there bee no Gods his seruice among you at all. For our seruice, it may hauehave some faultes, wee denie not: As it commeth to passe in things that goe through mens hands: wee accompt not our bookes of seruice a Byble, wee make it not equall with G O D his Booke. But this wee hold; what imperfections so euer there may be therein: yet all layed together will be no sufficient Reason for you, or anye man els: to abstaine from Churche assemblies here, which is the ende of this your Reason, and that it driueth vntounto. You say our seruice is so naught, as it may not be haunted, we denie it: Let vsus see howe you proue it: first in particular, you say it is deuised by our selues: different frō your Romish Catholike seruice through Christendome: so I take your words and meaning. As this is no warrant for the goodnesse of our seruice: so is it not hereby prooued to bee naught, so that yee vnderstande the same to bee so deuised by vsus, as it hauehave a farder, warrant then mans head and fancy, as being grounded and directed by Gods holy word: The summe; the grounde, the substance Gods, the … forme and manner, or order done by godly men. There is in deede, no Lyturgie, or outwarde forme of … Prayer for eueryevery congregation set downe, and particularly described in God his worde, it had been a matter endelesse and needelesse, to hauehave prescribed eueryevery particular thing, beongling to seruerall Church assemblies. The substaunce and generall direction is to bee had in the worde of God, and thence to be taken, and thereby in eueryevery particular circumstance to be ordred, for diuers and seuerall congregations dispersed in many Countreys. The rest is; the Application is to bee perfourmed by the Churches for their necessitie and vse accordingly, and so may be lawful for … Church to doe the like, without your checke and controlement. Yee hearde before of the diuers and sundrye orders and manners of Masses, in your Romaine Church, as yee call it, in Italie, France, Englande, and so forth. And your S.Beda Ecole. hist. li. 1. cap. 27. Gregorie (as is recorded by Bede) willed Augustine the Monke, to take that frō other Churches here and there, for this Englishe Churchs seruice, that shoulde bee most conuentent: Is it not knowne to all the worlde, that your Mattens, Euensong, Complyn, Dirige, Masse, and so foorth, was of diuers Byshops of Romes patching. &c. And a long time a doyng before it was in that order you nowe vse it. Did not your Trent meeting of late, agree and appointPius. 5. your Church seruice shoulde bee reformed; did not yourAnno. 1566. Pope according to that decree, euen of late yeres reforme your breuiary, and Missall, ywis sir, wee giuegive no such scope of reformation in our Gospelling Churches, but teach and holde, that all shoulde be doen by, and according to the rule of God his booke, and holy Scriptures, as in matters appertayning to his Maiestie, with all godly reuerence, and humblenesse of minde. You say it is altogether different from your seruice, so woulde wee hauehave it to bee: for that Poperie is too bad a paterne, to reforme Christes Churche by. It is euen as vnfit to bee an example for a reformed Church to followe, as a fylthy hogstie is to frame and build a Princes Palace by and more vnfitte too. The freer our Churches and assemblies be from Popishe corruptions, the more happie be they a great deale. You knowe in that olde and vnhappie controuersie about keeping of Easter in the … Church: home the fathers … it vnmeete to followe the wicked Iewes, who had crucifted Christ, in obseruing their Easter, on the foureteenth day of the first monethmonth,Eusebius de vita constan. lib. 3. cap. 17. as Constantine then emperour wryteth. And ye gospel I am sure no better, but a great deale woorse, agreeth wt poperie, & our christiā religiō wt your romish seruice: & … we easily admit that it is false, that our seruice differeth in nothing from yours, but that it is now in English, which was then in latin, so were our English seruice too too bad: We would hauehave you and all the worlde thinke otherwise of the matter, and we wishe you take no occasion thereat to thinke so, wee are content to ease you of the paine to compare or prooue that point. You say, the hotter sort of protestants called Puritanes, condemne the seruice of the protestants here, and refraine from it as much as Catholikes doe. Though there be that wish a more full reformation of the whole Churche and religion, yet knowe I none of the godly learned, that say with you, it is vnlawfull to come at Church assemblish heere, nor themselues refraine frō them: There may bee some fewe simple vnlearned folke, that of hatred to your superstitious, and intollerable bloodie dealings afore time, wherewith by their wills they would hauehave no communion or fellowship, that may make some scruple therin, for that they of zeale defie ye remnants, steps, traces, ceremonies, and all affinitie and likelihood with Poperie: but howe agree they with you, and you with them; euen as as dogge and cat, as they say, so little vauntage hauehave you by them. Your mindes and purposes beeing so contrarie the one to the other, I minde not to bee a Patrone of eueryevery bodies cause, yee hauehave heard what I said before of that matter, whither, I here referre you till I heare your answere. Such godly moderation woulde I hauehave kept in this matter, as I trust can and will offende none that are godly. Wisedome may not quenche zeale, zeale may not destroy wisedome, godly zeale, and godly wisdome may stande together, and goe together: and so must doe, and in Gods matters, the worde of God must direct and order both. Let mee I pray you aske of you, whether they of your side that wished, and sought for reformation of your Popishe seruice at Trent meeting, condemned the same, & refrained from resorting to your Popishe Churche and seruice as much as Protestants or no; I weene you will answere me, no. Then let that serue to answere you in this point heere. You say the Scriptures are read among vsus in false and shamelesse translations. &c. This is the next particular fault you find: And this were to be hearkened vntounto, if it werē true, as it is most impudent and false; still you goe about to bereaue vsus of the Scriptures: which I would hauehave the Reader mark; it is your olde practise: Yee say this hath beene shewed in particular by many learned men, ye say so onelyonly, and there you leaue them, and that they hauehave saide: And vntill you particular out of your learned men, wee can say nothing: but that they hauehave carried shame for their malicious lying and slaundering. Yee threaten wee shalbe iolily quayled in this matter shortly, and by whome I prap you; Forsooth one of your coat telleth vsus, by Gregory Martin. Alas poore man, hee is but one, and farre inferiour, and too weake to deale with those and so many graue, learned, and godly fathers; that hauehave to God his glory, the Churches inestimable benefite, and their owne singular commendation trauelled in translating the English Bible: But let him goe, and your bragge and threate, till wee see more and heare furder from him. It may bee wee shall receiue some profite andYe wote what … meaneth: Bonus quando quedormitat bomerus & opere in longo, &c. benefite by him, to amend some little faultes that may hauehave escaped men aforetime. You know howe harde a thing it is to doe such a work so absolutely, as nothing may be missing or wanting therein. Though he bee an enimie, yet wee will not refuse to bee admonished by him: wee will maintaine no faulte as you doe, wee will stande in no errour. Let it bee shewed and prooued a faulte, and it will be mended with all thankefulnesse to the admonisher: But I am afraide all will bee but poore spight, and this maketh mee the rather to thinke so, because your faultes heere set downe are no better: you are pickling and carping at our English translation of the Bible: You cannot tarry tyll your friendes booke come foorth. I remember what was said in Queene Maries dayes, when yee burned the English Bibles, to excuse so horrible a fact withall: ye said the Bible was naughtily translated, and being demaunded a better by the people that were loth to forgoe that till they had a better, yee promised they shoulde hauehave it better translated: that promise since that time you hauehave forgotten, at least you hauehave not vntill this day perfourmed the same; possible you will better thinke thereof nowe, and yet I hardly beleeue that. But let vsus heare howe clarkely and woorthily you handle your selfe, to shewe manifest and wilful corruptions in our translations to drawe the Scripture to our owne purposes: Throughout the scripture where Idols are forbidden, they translate it Images, say you. Howe can this be better checked, and prooued a plaine lye, and a slaunder; then in looking vponupon our Bibles, which in the old Testament and the newe also vse the worde of Idols and Idolatrie. Wee neither refuse, in time and place as occasion serueth, to set downe yt name of Idols, nor yet are we in fond louelove with the name of Images. Let the Christian Reader try herein this discoursers trustie truth, by looking into the English Byble, heere authorised and vsed in Churche assemblies vnderunder her Maiestie. Yee say: throughout the scripture where Idols are forbidden, wee translate it Images. If this be an impudent vntruth and no better, but a lewde rayling against our godly translations of the Bible: then who may trust you in other matters; Howe shall wee thinke ye deale honestly and plainely in this cause; And that it is no better: will I vndertake briefly to shewe (to giuegive the Reader herein also a taste of your hollowe double dealing) though I be … in following you, it commeth so often: First in our Scripture seruice; then in some Chapters of the Bible in the old and newe Testament, besides; let the Reader looke in the 115. Psalme, the 4. verse: there shall hee finde that thus it is Monethly read in our Churches, on the three & twentieth day of the monethmonth, at Euening prayer: Their Idols are siluer and golde: euen the work of mens hands, &c. Is not heere the worde Idols, and Images; In the Epistle read on Easter day, taken out of the 3. Chapter to the Collossians: Couetousnesse which is worshipping of Idols. Heere is againe read Idols, not Images, in our trāslation. Then are your wordes of vsus vntrue, & a slaunder of our English translation of the Bible. Aboue these 40. yeeres hath it beene thus translated in our English Bibles. Lying, it seemeth cost you no money: But how is it in yourSimulacra. Romish translation; in both places Images; thē condemne you that: and yet me doe not so for that, nor in that respect, wee say all commeth to one in both places, howe say you; But let vsus leaue your translation, & answere for our owne. You say: throughout the scripture where Idols are forbidden, wee translate it Images. This is your example to shewe our translations in Englishe to be naught: let mee reprooue this your saying by contrary examples taken out of our English trāslations, & yet will I alleadge no other translation herein then yt which is aboue fortie yeres olde. The other yee hauehave lesse to complaine of, that hauehave beene since translated: And yet I diminish nothing of the fidelitie and … of that translation in King Henrie the eight his dayes, which it wel deserueth among al ye godly. If any bee well translated in Englishe; Allowe English Churche that, Bibles some bee faultlesse, euen in these places for that you carpe other for; at least before you burned all, you should hauehave giuen vsus a better of your owne translating, which you will neuer doe, vnlesse you woulde be accounted enimies rather to the Bible and matter it self, then to the translation: But I will proceede with the word and name of Idols, which yee say wee: throughout the scriptures translate Images, & take vponupon you to shewe why wee doe so, full Clarkelye. Besides that, I hauehave alredie sayd, and that the diligent reader may obserue and gather of himselfe: let, among other, these places be read in the Bybles translated in our noble King Henry his dayes, her maiesties worthie Father, to shew the … cauilling and lying vanitie, first in the Law, and the Prophets; that is the olde Testament, then in the newe, Genes. 31. 35. Thus readeth the English Byble: So searched he, but found not those Idols. Leuit, 19. 4. Ye shal not turn vntounto Idols. 4. Kings. 17. 12. They serued most vile Idols. For the Prophets looke, Esay. 42. 17. and, 44. thrise; verse, …. 17. 19. A God and an Idol: an abhominable Idol, &c, and, 45. 20. HaueHave they any vnderstanding that set vp the stockes of their Idols, & pray vntounto a God that cannot helpe them, &c. Ezek, 8. …. and the 6. foure times, verse. 4. 9. 13. twise. &c. For Idols & Idolaters you hauehave this word in ye very last booke and last chapter of the new Testament. ver. 15. & Reuelatiō. 2. Idols twise. verse, 14. 20. Let this serue to note your vntrue slander. To woorship or religiously serue besides God, we make the same an Idoll. The outwarde representation also thereof, or Image, is in scriptures called an Idol: Hee nameth an expresse place here: where we shall find Images for Idols, in the very last wordes of the fifth chapter of Saint Iohn his fyrst Epistle. First, that is but one place and one example, which is a very bad proofe to shewe that wee translate Images for Idols throughout the scripture: next thus it is read in our Church assemblies at this present, what euer this lying quareller dreame: euen in the Byble translated vnderunder her maiesties gouernement and printed with priuilege, by her highnes Printer Richarde Iugge. 1568. and. 1572. and set into Churches and there dayly read and expounded Babes keepe your selues from Idols. Then are you not … onelyonly, but a shamelesse lyer and a slanderer and abuser of the people. So is it likewise translated in the english Bible printed at Geneua. 1560. in the beginning of her maiesties happy raigne and dedicated vntounto her highnes: So is it translated in that worthie Theodore Beza his newe Testament dedicated also to our Soueraigne &c. But how is it translated in your authenticall translation I pray you: that must alone bee approoued and receiued without checke, and all other in comparison therof reiected: There is that faulte ye charge vsus with, if that be a faulte; as in … I iudge it to be none, or not so greate; Idole beeing the Greeke, and Image the Latin and English word: Then if any English Bybles hauehave left the word Idols and vsed the word Images in this place of S. Iohn yet is no more done, thē you permit your selues: and therfore yee need not call it manifest and wilfull corruption, &c. Except it be to discredite that, you account your owne translation: If that bee your griefe to see or heare the word Images in I. Iohn the. 5. 21. forbidden: though it be not greatly materiall, the circumstance considered, yet to satisfie and please you (if that will serue) that word Image is remooued, and the Greeke worde Idole kept in diuers of our english translations, why mend you not your own common latin translation, not here onelyonly; wherewith we charge you not; but in infinite other places, wherein the same is verye corrupt. Where you would cleere your church of Idols and Idolatrie, by his childish distinction betweene Idols and Images: It is so wel answered as I neede adde nothing to that the Godly learned hauehave here of sayd. Ye know it is Hierome his manner on the Prophets to applie to the times and persons vnderunder Christ, that which is spoken of Idols and Idolatrie, vnderunder the Prophets, to shewe their are among Christians Idols & Idolatours; that wee neede not cast the same from vsus to the Heathen; as though Christendome were free frō Idols and Idolatours. Which I would it were (if it pleased God) but wil neuer be, so long as you maintain Images in churches, & the worship therof: which is cleere & plaine Idolatry: In yours & all other religions, mans vaine fancie, braine, & idle head, is the source, fountaine, and first-shop, to conceiue and … Idols and Idolatry in, afterward the hand is made an instrumēt to fashiō & frame an outward forme or picture of that Lye, which is there first conceiued. &c. Call the same a God, an Idole, an Image, a Picture; or what you will: In grossenes, & in cunning there may be some diuersitie; in effect al is flat Idolatry, whatsoeuer we choose. Let al yt world iudge who be shamlesse corruptors and wylfull to drawe, yea to peruert the scripture to their owne purpose in this point that I talke of, to goe … further now: They that heere translate Images; as your vulgare translation …; and some other doe; But not (as I hauehave shewed) the english Byble, printed in her maiesties raigne, and read at this day in our Churches, as yee vniustly slander: Or you Papists, that for the retaining and maintaining of your IdolatryThe papistes in reckoning vp the ten comman dements leaue quite out the second commanment. or Images and Image worship among the people; hauehave quite rased out the second commandement of the ten, agaynst Images and Idolatry, or if you will hauehave it gentlier spoken, hauehave left it out of those latin and english primers and bookes wherein the ten commandementes were expressed to be learned of the common people here in times past: IIerem. 10 14. 15 Abacuck. 2. 18. Lactant. lib. 2. ca. 19. know your shift for such forgerie: but … me thinketh, hauehave let the wordes stand, and follow in order as God pronounced and propounded the same to his people in the scriptures,Origen. contra. cel sum. ten wordes are not many, you might hauehave kept your shift for a better purpose; if it so had pleased you: For the… Gent lib. 6. matter, as the scripture telleth vsus, that such stuffe teacheth lyes, & is contrary to the doctrine of the same scripture: So Lactantius sayth; vndoubtedly there is no religion where an Image is, Images are voyde of religion, &c. And the Heathen and heretike charged the Christians in the primitiue Church with this, that they had no Images; as though Christians had beene too blame, for being without Images, who if they had had Images, coulde not hauehave beene so charged, or might hauehave answered at the least, otherwise than they doe. And as one of your owne men writeth out of Hierom; almost all the ancient fathers condemned the woorshipping of Images for feare of Idolatry, than the which, no wickednes can be greater. &c. Famous is the story of Epiphanius translated into Latin by Hierom; who cutPolydorus Virgilius, de Inuent. lib. 6. cap. 13. in peeces the paynted vaile wherein the image of Christ, or some saint was hanging at the dore of the Temple: for that it was against the authoritie of the scriptures; that a mans image should hang in the Church, and against our religion,Epiphan. Iohanni. Episco po. Hierosolym. sayth hee: And more famous yet, is the publike edict of sundry the olde christian Emperours, in forbidding Images, and the worship thereof; not thinking it to pertaine to religion, that the Image of any should be worshipped, no not ofHieronym. Christ; whose Image, by name they forbad: as in their decreeTom. 2 inter Epist. Hieronim. is to be seene. &c. You see the hanging of Christes Image in the Church, or any Saintes: the worshipping also of such Images is condēned and forbidden: Now wouldVide. Pet. Crinit. de honest. disciplin. lib. 9. cap. 9. I know of you in what commandement, the same is forbidden, vnlesse it be in that which forbiddeth Idolatry & Idols? Plead against those of your side, against these anciēt fathers ye emperours. &c. If ye needs wil? Say what ye wil, ye shal neuer be able to cleere your Images set vp in Temples, from being Idols, nor your woorshipping thereof, from idolatry: which you must doe better than hitherto, before you can make vsus beleeue the contrary, or otherwise of them then the scriptures and antiquitie teach and report of Images; Blame them not and say; they should hauehave sayde: of Idols. What though the Image of God according whereunto man was made, be not, nor be translated by vsus, nor called an Idol; As we vse the word at this day? What though (to goe furder) her maiesties image in her coine or otherwise be free from that grosse terme? &c. what maketh all this, for excusing and cleering your religious Images (that I maye so speak) or those that are made for religion, from being Idols; which are painted, carued, grauen, set vp in churches, decked senced, clothed, crouched vntounto, kissed, offred vntounto, praiers made before them, and lightes set vp, with such other superstitions? Is the one case and the other like? Doe you finde your Bybles faultie in this point? Or can you reprooue our speech and talke? You roue at your owne pleasure and at randon, to maintaine your fooles bable: howe will you maintaine your Paraphrasis, or farre fetcht Periphrasis andLooke Ephe. 5. 5. Circumlocution vponupon the fifth to the Ephesians, to be a better and more faythfull translation than our english Bybles set vsus downe; you shall neuer finde, I trow, the wordes yee heere set vsus downe, in the fyfth to the Ephesians, in any Byble, Latine, or English, Greeke, or other. You are the first peruerter and falsifier of the Greeke, Latin, and Englishforeign. translation, in that place, that I know: Thus saye you, S. Paule satth; that a couetous man maketh his money his Idole, Thus say some of our English translations, A couetousVulgat. Aua rus, quod est Idolorum. persō, which is an Idolator Thus other (which in sense is all one) A couetous person, which is a worshipper of Images. The former translation of the two, keepeth theSeruitus. Greeke worde vsed now in english, the other rendreth the same in meere english termes and both well. You neither keepe the Greeke nor render vsus the same in english faythfully; but tell vsus your owne meaning: For the matter you vtter your owne great folly in so foolishly dallying with the scriptures. If your common translation maye render vsus these wordes Idolatry and Idolatours sometime; seruice of Idols as here, sometime seruice of Images, as Coloss. 3. 5. &c, Why may not our english translatiō likewise render the same, sometime Idolatry and Idolators, sometime woorshipping of Idols, as Coloss. 3. 5. and worshippers of Images, as heere. &c. Checking our translation, you checke by more right your owne: But I maruaile howe you that looke so narrowly into our translations, passe so great fault here in your common translation, as you construe the matter: To excuse your Idolatry withall, you make a curious distinction betweene foreign, and foreign; that is, worshipLatrie and Dulia. & seruice, And here your own translation rendreth foreign; seruice, so confounding both wordes: howe agreeth this with your subtile distinction; Let the reader now hardlye, iudge of the whole betweene vsus, and in conscience tell; who … more sinceritie and more fidelitie in translating and handling the scriptures: you; or wee; Thus much concerning the first fault you vniustly finde with our english translation of the Byble; taken out of 1. Iohn. 5. 21. and of Images Idols and Idolatry; and your subtile distinctions betweene images and idols, Latria and Dulia; and your vame excuse of your Popish idolatrie, &c.