Brief Discourse of the Troubles at Frankfort, Answer 17 – Answer 32
The anſwere.
VVhitheadHere is maniefolde fyndinge off faulte as in a matter off moſte waightie importance / and wherwith Maiſter Horne and Maiſter Chambers are wonderfully rubbed on the gall. But paſſinge ouer the firſte member as vaine / and mingled with others / we will firſte ſpeake of the ſeconde. Yff this be to the preiudice off priuate men / what hauehave yow Maiſter Horne and Maiſter Chambers done / whiche nowe a greate while hauehave by your meſſengers and letters ſtopped all the priuate almoſes off all men / and drawen them into your owne handes? And that yow / Maiſter Horne / threatned owte off the pulpit that yow woulde do / and that yow woulde make poore miſerable men to eate haye. Where they ſpeake off an vnknowen collectour / we anſwere / that the leſſe he ſhalbe commonly knowen / the leſſe daunger ſhall he cauſe to them / that he ſhall hauehave to doo with all. For thoſe collectors off yours / are nowe by this your diligence in gathering (would to god ye were as liberall in diſtributinge) and by theis your cloſe and moſte diſcreet means / ſo knowen / that no man dare bydd them god ſpede / muche leſſe talke withe them.
Therfore it is wonderous fyne / that Maiſter Horne hathe forged here cōcerninge an vnknowne colectour▪ where he ſaithe that a feare and a terror ſhall be ſtricken into ſuche as ſhall ſee manie names ſubſcribed / we vnderſtande not howe that cā be. It ſemeth he woulde ſaie / that oure meſſagers wil ſhewe not oure names but the meſſagers names ſubſcribed. Furthermore / we demaunded off Chambers and Horne / why they hauehave done the ſame nowe theis 3 yeres / and compelled men …o ſubſcribe againſt their willes.A ſmall fault in theis daies. In them this is a godly matter in vsus an horrible abhomination.
Where he ſaith / that this will be exceedinge Hurtefu…l to h…r congregatiōs / certeinlie / it hathe bin a moſt an vndooinge bothe to our congregation and others tha… M Horne and M. Chambers hauehave in this behalff done yet hithertoo / For one while they ſaie / they hauehave gathered alonely for this congregation: When any bodie off an other churche (ye muſt vnderſtand) craue ought off them An other while they boaſte that they hauehave a great deale for other congregations / that is when they be offended with vsus as they are nowe moſte greuouſly. For nowe (we beleue) they will ſaie plainly they hauehave nothinge for oure poore / therfore though they ſpeake it not / yet / they ſhewe openly by their dedes that they hauehave all to themſelues / and keepe all to themſelues. Where he ſaithe / the Queene ſhall vnderſtande by this meanes that oure congregations are noriſhed by hir ſubiectes▪ how ſo? Doo we name Engliſhe men? or vniuerſally all good men by whoſe liberallitie the poore off oure congregation be noriſhed? But the Queene will ſuſpecte ſome thinge off hir ſubiectes. O fine witt…e men: She ſuſpected nothinge forſoothe before we wrote this diſcipline. That / that he hathe in the fourth place ſet as i… were / in the middle ranke in ſaftie / we ſawe not▪ therfore / we will ſpeake off it laſte But this is the greuouſe matter off all / and that whiche alone tormenteth theis men in dede. for other cauſes are pretended / but this is the verie thinge whence (as the man ſaithe) comethe all this anguiſhe and anger too / forſoothe it wilbe ſuſpected (ſaieth he) iff ſome other collecte in the name off the congregation / that we like not Chambers collection / nor Hornes and his diſtribution. Hereoff will all theis waightie diſcommodities growe / that they two (ye muſte vnderſtande) maie not be in ſo great authoritie with all men / nor be ſuch buggarddes to the poore yff they maye not beare the bagge alone. O greuous and intollerable euilles that will growe off theis ſuſpitions. In dede they make an ende off all this place withe plaine tragicall termes: this geare (ſaith he) ſhall cauſe vndooinge and a moſte peſtilent plage vntounto the congregation.
We wonder that he cried not owte alſo▪ o heauen / o earthe / o neptunes ſeas / but where they feare them ſelues ſo muche off ſuſpitions / we beleue / they maie be owte off paraduenture in a while. For all men will with in a ſhorte time (as farre as we ſee) geue ouer to ſuſpect what manner off men Horne and Chābers be. Finally what faulte ſo euer they finde with vsus in all this adoo touchinge the meſſager to be ſente / they themſelues hauehave vtterly forced vsus by extreamitie and violence to attempte it. For ſeinge Chambers wou…d geue nothinge being preſent / but vntounto certeine off his owne / and is nowe runne awaie with the purce / we are vtterlie conſtrained to take this waie / that oure poore periſhe not for famine.
The obiection againſt the 30. Article.
Horne.This is amiſſe / that the Deacons are bownden to viſite the poore onelyonly / to knowe iff they neede: ſeinge it is chieflye required that they maye exhorte / that they maie comforte / that they maie relieue ſuch conſciences as be ſick and burthened with ſynnes. A man maie aſke them where it apeareth by plaine wordes off the ſcriptures / that it is the Deacons office to receiue and keepe the treaſures off the churche / and that they alone ought to excecute and accompliſhe this office.
The Anſwere.
VVhithead.Let the Deacons viſit all ſicke folke vn…uerſallie yff they will and exhorte them and comforte them / we forbid thē not. OnelyOnly we ſhewe that they are bownden by reaſon off their office peculiary to hauehave charge off the poore.VVhithead Where they ſaie it is chiefly required that deacons ſhuld exhorte and comforte the ſicke conſciences off them that are diſeaſed: Iff they ſaie they be bownde to doo that by reaſon off their office / let them proue it / that they doo not onelyonly ſaie all thinges. But yff they reſpecte Chriſtian pitie towardes their brethern / neither doo we exempte from the Deacons / that whiche is the common dewtie off all Chriſtians. But for as muche as they hauehave burthened the Deacons before / with vnneceſſarie charges as concerninge the office off Deacons / by reaſon wheroff they fraied manie from that right godlie office off Deacons / we hauehave thought good to declare what thinges they be whiche properly appertaine to the Deaconſhipp / and what be the common dewties off all Chriſtians. And leaſte theis men might iuſtlie complaine as touchinge the lake off exhortinge and comforting the ſicke / that matter is ſufficientlie prouided for by the miniſters off the worde vntounto whom that charge dothe chiefly appertaine and by other lerned men alſo. And to that queſtion that they harpe vponupon againe / it is throughly anſwered in the 4. Article In that they require plaine wordes off ſcrip…ure off vsus we cannot meruaile ynoughe / ſeinge they neither proue or ſhewe anie thinge / either by plaine wordes or obſcure wordes: but as thoughe we were ſcollere and they ſcoolemaſters off Pithagoras rule / they onelyonly ſaie and affirme all thinges and confirme nothinge. But they promeſſe they will doo it at leaſure and god before. And that is ynoughe we trowe.
The obiection againſt the 38. Article.
The time is ill appointed.Horne. it were a great deale better after the marte / for the auoidinge off rumor and blowinge off diſſentions whiche maie ariſe as it is nowe in example.
The anſwere.
The time is appointed well ynough.VVhithead For theis diſſentions are not to be imputed to times / but to men. And we truſte that we ſhall by the grace off God hauehave henſfoorthe goodmen that ſhall quietlie geuerne the churche in the tru… feare off god and louelove to their brethern.
The obiection againſt the 44. Article.
Horne.The 44. Article ſpeaketh manifeſtly againſt the edicte off the Senate. For there it is ſpecified by theis clere and manifeſte wordes. Furthermore the Senate off this honorable citie hath decreed / that iff their ariſe anie diſſention or contentions amonge the ſtrangers / concerninge Religion or their Diſcipline / they be ſett at one with all diligence by the miniſters and Seniors ſpecially for this cauſe / leaſte thoſe whiche profeſſe themſelues to be baniſhed mē owte of their countrie for true Religions ſake / vtter an euell token what their minde is by reaſon off ſuch controuerſies and debates. And in caſe the matter cannot be apeaſed before the miniſters and elders let them knowe that the Senate off this citie will take order therein / who as reaſon is / will looke moſte ſharply vppon the Authors off ſuche troubles.
The anſwere.
VVhithead.It is not againſt the meaninge off the edicte / as it was declared by the Magiſtrates themſelues in oure churche before all the congregation the laſte off February / by the mouthe off Maiſter Valeran polaine / and the ſaide Magiſtrates / (ſeinge the ſentence pronounced by the ſaide Maiſter Valeran and written owte by vsus / allowed it / according wherunto / this decree is all together ſet foorth.
The obiection againſt the 46. Article.
This lawe dothe not ſufficiently forſee and prouide for the quietnes off the congregation / Horne.vnle… in this greater parte / the paſtor and ſeniors be included / whoſe authoritie men ought not to bringe into ſuch cōtempte that we woulde ſo eaſilie reiecte them. The multitude is off their owne diſpoſition / ouermuche licentious and grudginge at euerie ſuperior power and this lawe is alſo againſte the edicte off the Senate.
The anſwere.
Iff the miniſters and Elders wilbe preſent no man warneth them: yf they will not / VVhithead.who wil force them againſte their willes? It is impertinent that he ſaith / they be eaſilie reiecte / whiche will not come when they be deſired / or when they be preſent departe vppon their owne will. Where he ſaithe / that this decree is alſo contrarie to the edicte off the Senate / it is not ynough / excepte he proue it.
The obiection againſt the 49. Article.
The ſubſcribinge is ouer hardly and conſtrainedly done ſpecially in ſo often alteration and innouation off lawes as as they ſpeake off.Horne.
The anſwere·
The ſubſcribinge is not ouer hadly nor conſtrainedly done but ſo muche the leſſe hardly and cōſtainedly / VVhithead.in that there is an eaſie waye ſhewed to redreſſe Yf anye thinge be done amiſſe: Where theis men would hauehave their decrees to be reputed for holie ſacred cānons whiche maie not be moued. And as for this ſubſcribinge / whiche they ſay is ſo cōſtrained and harde / beſides that it is prouided for by the edicte off the Senate / it is required alſo in their oulde diſcipline and inſtitution.
The obiection againſt the 54. Article.
The authoritie off the paſtor and Seniors is all wiped awaie.Horne. For euerie thinge is referred to the confuſed multitude of the congregation.
The anſwere.
VVhithead.Excepte the matter be vſed as we hauehave prouided in the Diſcipline / bothe the authoritie and libertie off the congregation is wyped awaie / and a meere tyranny eſtbliſhed. Where he ſaith all thinge is referred to the confuſed multitude / it is manifeſtlie falſe. For it is allwaies added by ſuch as the congregation ſhall appointe therto: as it is alſo in the 54. article added / in plaine wordes.
The obiection againſt the 57. Article.
Horne.This Lawe is alſo contrarie to edicte off the Senate.
The anſwere.
VVhithead.This ſhulde not be ſaide but ſhewed.
The obiection againſt the 58. Article.
Horne.The aſſemblie off 4. 6. 8. or 10. is troublouſly done and withowte order / and will ſtyrre vpp newe tumultes daily in the congregation. Such lawes as this condemne the authoritie and counſaile off the Elders.
The anſwere.
Horne and Chambers condemne the aſſemblie off 4. 6. 8.VVhithead. or …. men for peace mak…nge: Where they hauehave almoſt everie daie theis 3. monethes gathered corner creepinge aſſemblies to diſturbe the peace of the church.
The obiection againſt the 59. Article.
Horne.The 59. article is manifeſtly repugnant againſt the 56. Article.
The anſwere.
The 59. is not repugnant againſt the 56. article for there is intreated off ciuill controuerſies and here off others.VVhithead
The obiection againſt the 63. Article.
This lawe alſo is againſt the edicte off the Senate.Horne.
The anſwere.
It is not againſt the meaninge off the edicte / VVhithead.as it is declared in the anſwere to the 15. Article. For it was declared by the right honorable and godly Magiſtrates openly in oure churche / that they thought nothinge leſſe then to impeche the lawfull authoritie off the congregation. And except the congregation whiche geueth authoritie to miniſters be ſuperior to the miniſters / they are not nowe miniſters / but lordes off the congregation / as to adde no further.
The obiection to the 68. article.
In this place we deſier that oure olde diſcipline maie be looked vponupon / that we maie ſe whither it be / Horne.to be ſo lightly caſte awaie / ſeinge it proceeded off ſo lerned men / and ſhall with a meane amendinge be farr perfecter then this newe Diſcipline.
The anſwere.
Where they deſier that the olde Diſcipline maie be looked vppon / we anſwere / the more they ſhall looke vponupon it / VVhithead.the more euedently ſhall the naughtynes and imperfection off it appeare / And it ſhall alſo more plainely appeare howe muche the cōgregation hathe bin beholdinge to them that hauehave reteined ſuch an vnperfit diſcipline ſo lōge in the churche / onelyonly / by cauſe it permitteth all to the paſtor. Where they ſaie that the Diſcipline proceded off ſo lerned men / yet / the ſame that wrote it / (were they neuer ſo well lerned) confeſſe themſelues both that it was gathered in haſte / and geuen to the congregation as imperfit / onelyonly for a tyme. Where …hey ſpeak off the amending off that Diſcipline / we marueille that it neuer came into their minde before.
The obiection againſt the 72. Article.
Horne.That concerninge teſtamentes in this daungerous worlde is a pernitious Lawe.
The anſwere.
VVhithead.We cannot tell what ſerpente the lawe concerninge Teſtamentes hathe lurkinge vnderunder the herbe. They ſaye it is a pernitious lawe / and they onelyonly ſaye ſo / But we ſaie it is verie wholſome / and profitable againſt the fraude off falſaries and to the ſuccours of the fatherles and widdowes.
The obiection the 73. Article.
Horne.Quietnes is not ſufficiently prouided for by this meanes / in aſmuche as it is commaunded (as it were) that euerie one ſhuld looke and ſtudy for an innouation.
The anſwere.
VVhithead.Quietnes / is prouided for ſufficiētly / in as muche as the matter muſte paſſe quietlye and peaceablie / and alſo by writings mennes conſciences / are alſo neceſſarely prouided for / that in caſe any thinge be founde in the Eccleſiaſticall ordinaunces vngodly or diſagreinge / or ells vnprofitable for the church it maie be chaunged ſtraight waies / ſo as mennes pleaſures be not holden for holy / ſacred / and vnmouable as the papiſtes would.
The obiectours concluſion.
In all this a doo / we ſaie this for a concluſion / Horne.that there be thre thinges / whiche they onelyonly ſeeke / the innouation off miniſters / a purſe and treaſure / I wote not what / and the purginge off their owne offences before committed
Nowe hauehave we alleadged as muche as we handſomely coulde bringe / conſideringe the tyme. We woulde alſo hauehave alleadged verie many other thinges / ſo as it ſhulde plainly appeare / that oure brethern hauehave in ordeininge their Diſcipline reſpected neither ſo great waightie reaſons / nor ſo great commodities off oure congregation But hauehave in the meane while geuen that / that ſhall be offenſiue and ſlanderous to all good men / and to oure aduerſaries and goddes enemies the papiſtes high reioycinge and pleaſure. The booke off the olde-diſcipline with a verie litle and ſmall correction and amending would cauſe manie more plentifull fruites off Chriſtian hartes to be brought foorth / and would ſettle a great deale more conſtant and more durable quietnes amonge vsus.
The anſwere to the concluſion.
In all this adoo / Maiſter Horne and Maiſter Chambers go abowte nothinge ells but to diſquiete the cōgregation / VVhitheadthat Horne might rule the roſte ouer all: Chambers beare the bagge alone / and they 2. together exerciſe a moſte vnworthie lordſhipp ouer the poore / and by them all other / and that they might hauehave no certeine diſcipline / but that their pleaſures might be holden for lawes / and that nothinge ſhulde be thought right or ſtād in force but what they doo / yet hithertoo / and the ſame they go abowte nowe: And it ſemethe they hauehave vtterly determined either to eſtabliſhe a tyrannie / or to leaue no common wealth at all in the congregation. Where Horne and Chambers make reherſall here off the purginge off offences comitted by vsus / they ought iuſtly to hauehave byn aſhamed to make mention off offences ſeinge they hauehave neuer left for theis 3. or 4. Monethes to lade themſelues with wicked doinges And as for occaſion of offence and ſlander geuen to good and godly men and to oure aduerſaries and goddes enemies the papiſtes high reioicinge and pleaſure / they accuſe vsus theroff ſo falſely / as they themſelues hauehave geuen the occaſion in dede.
For they coulde neuer abyde to hauehave anye thinge amended nor themſelues to be admoniſhed off any thinge / or to be cōmoned withall in anie wiſe. But for the moſte light / yea / no cauſes in dede / they forſooke their miniſterie ſtraight waies / the paſtor forſooke the flocke / the Treaſorer the poore and bothe forſooke the churche and moued others by their example to do the ſame.
Neither was it ynough for them to geue ouer their owne functions but they muſt drawe other preachers and readers with them alſo / to the intent the congregation ſhulde by this meanes be deſtitute off Goddes worde / and vtterly ſcattered as thoughe it colde not poſſiblie ſtande withowte them. And when they had forſaken their owne churche / they haunted / partly the french churche and partly / the dewtche churches and ſo raiſed rumors abroade and ſpred oure diſſentions / firſte / though this citie and then thorough other cities off Germany. And laſt off all / when they wolde not come to the churche in the marte time / but by the Magiſtrates commaundement / neither coulde they then be quiet they ſpreed the like rumours almoſte throughowt all Europe.
Then I hope, it may be now ſpred againe withowt offence, all thinges wel waied.And when they hauehave plaied theis prancks themſelues / they charge vsus with their owne faultes and go abowte to laie the infamie vppon vsus whiche they themſelues hauehave ſtirred vp. Iff yow ſhall crie owte that olde matters are reherſed by this meanes / yow ought to hauehave abſtained from prouokinge vsus hereunto: neither to hauehave mentioned offences committed / olde ſubſcriptions / ne yet to hauehave called vsus vsus backe thus to the olde diſcipline the fountaine off all contentions.
The names ſubſcribed to the obiections with a poſtſcripte.
Robart Horne
Edwarde Iſaac
Richard Chambers
Chriſtopher Brickbeck
Anthonie Mahewe
Richard Dauids
Cutbert warcope
Robart Harrington
Iohn Binkes
Iohn Eſcot.
Nicholas caru…
Iohn Machet.
The reſte off oure conſentinge brethern we coulde not call together vntounto this ſubſcribinge / Horne.by reaſon off ſhortnes of time / whoſe names ſhall be put afterward hauinge your H. licences therto.
The anſwere to the poſtſcripte.
Where they complaine off ſhortnes of time in the ende as they did in the beginninge / VVhitheadand that they could not by reaſen therof cal their cōſentinge brethern together to the ſubſcribinge: What meaneth that? For where they hauehave ſet to the names off them whiche dwell moſt farr aſunder and hauehave left owte almoſt none but the names off their owne ſeruants whom they hauehave allwaies at a becke / yet they could not call the reſt off their brethern together forſoothe / to the intent they might by this ſhift make a ſhewe to ſuche as knowe not the matter / off ſome multitude off men off ſome eſtimation whiche are leſte owte. And they deſier alſo as in a matter off waight that they maye ſet too the names off the others afterwardes. And as here in the ende / they vaunte a certeine ſhewe of ſome great multitude that will ſubſcribe: Euen ſo / in the beginninge and in many other places of their booke they make a great bragge as though they would exhibite ſome notable matter to the magiſtrate / ſo they maie hauehave time ynough geuen them to bethink themſelues. But maiſter Horne and maiſter Chambers ſhall with theis their mightie and great promiſſes bothe off ſubſcriptions declarations and confirmations bring… to paſſe as good as nothinge. But yet this they are deſirous to bringe to paſſe in the meane time / that whiles theis gaye glorious promiſes off thers be loked for / they may a longe time hinder the peace and quietnes off the churche whiche their onelyonly deſier is to hauehave diſquieted. And iff it be poſſible that thei maie recouer a moſte intollerable lordeſhipp ouer the congregatiō or in caſe they cannot obtaine the chief ſtate in the cōgregatiō / that they may leaue the churche in worſte / or in no ſtate at all / but that they maye rendē it and all to ſcatter it. Theis be the deuiſes off Horne and Chambers. Theis be therfetches / right honorable and moſt righteous Magiſtrates. And yet we hauehave no diſtruſte but almightie god for his mercies ſake towardes oure moſt afflicted churche / and that your authoritie for your equities ſake and ſinguler beneuolence towardes vsus / will withſtande the ſame.
And for as muche as we hauehave proued that one off theis thinges whiche they hauehave reprehended in oure diſcipline / be other againſt gods worde / or againſte good reaſon: and for as muche alſo as we are ready to proue / that all thinges conteined in oure Diſcipline / are taken owte either off Goodes worde or off the edicte off the Senate and Magiſtrate / either owte off their owne olde diſcipline which they ſtick ſo faſt vntounto / either ells off the iudgement off good reaſon / we humblie beſeche the right honorable and righteous magiſtrates that they will vouchſaffe to confirme it with their authoritie.
Where as bothe partes gaue conſent that certeine others / very worſhippfull / ſhuld alſo deale in this controuerſie betweene them / to appeaſe (yff it might be) the ſame I hauehave here folowinge placed the order whiche they tooke for their quietnes.