Brief Discourse of the Troubles at Frankfort, Answer 5 – Objection 16
Maiſter Horne and Maiſter Chambers denie the booke off diſcipline to be collected by the 15 men / bycauſe they beinge VVhithead.appointed off the 15. hauehave labored by all means that nothinge ſhulde be donne for the ſettinge off the congregation at a quyet ſtaye. And when they perceiued that they could not hinder it / they came not with the reſte / the 2. laſte daies accordinge to appointmēt ſo as by that meanes / ſome of the iuſte nō ber off 15. men ſhulde be wantinge. was not the booke therfore bothe Lawfully collected and lawfully exhibited to the congregation bycauſe 2. or 3. off the appointed men withdrew themſelues againſte right and equitie? What ſhulde be determined in anie affaires / yff the matter ſhuld tarie / till alltogether (not one except) ſhulde agree throughly in all pointes? Where they ſaie the booke was collected before this matter was committed to the 15. men is it a plaine ſlaunder. Maiſter Horne and Maiſter Chambers might be iuſtly aſhamed to caſt pouertie in oure bretherns teeth nowe in exile (and that before the Magiſtrate) and to lye ſo openly / that 24. off oure company that ſubſcribed lyue off other mennes almes. And yff ſo manye poore men hauehave forſaken Maiſter purſe bearer Chambers is it not a plaine matter that they hauehave byn euell intreated at Chambers hande before tyme? But where they gather that the poore men ſeeme to hauehave folowed other mennes myndes in ſubſcribinge to the Diſcipline / rather then their owne: it is fondly gathered: in aſmuche as on the contrary parte it is moſte true that they whiche (were they poore men) folowid not Chambers when he ranne a Waye with the bagge / regarded their conſcience more then the lyuinge forſomuche as bothe they and all other might be certeinly aſſured that they ſhulde moſte greuouſly offend not onelyonly the purſe bearer Chambers but allſo two or there other off the richer ſorte off oure congregation. But howe muche more iuſtly might we returne this accuſatiō (which they falſely bend againſte oures) vponupon M. Horne and M. Chamb. and manye other off their nomber whiche hauehave folowed Chamb. in runninge awaye from the congregation / bycauſe he caried and ſhewed them a well ſtuffed powche / as it were a ſtandard to followe▪ for neither Maiſter Chambers nor Maiſter Horne durſt euer hauehave departed from the congregation as they hauehave done but vppon truſte off the powche / which the one hathe allwayes borne / and the other hath byn euer an vnſeparable waiter vppon / where ſo euer it were caried: and and yet in the meane while / this gaye fellowe Horne / from alofte contemneth ſo great a company off his countrie men / as beggers and caitiues in compariſon off himſelff.
But in caſe there be ſo many amonge vsus that liue off other mennes almes / as Maiſter Horne and Maiſter Chambers do reaſon. And ſeinge Maiſter Chambers tooke vppon him eſpecially at the intreaty off Maiſter Horne / the charge off gathering godlye mens almes publickely in the name of the churche / for the relieff the off poore off oure congregation as it is already knowen vntounto many and ſhall hereafter by the whole matter ſeuerally ſetforth / be moſte euidently knowen to moo: what merciemercy and pitye is this off thers towardes their brethern to leaue ſo many miſerable people behinde them / contrary to their promeſſe made to the congregation / and to runne awaie not onelyonly from the congregation / but alſo owte off the cytye ſnappinge awaie the bagge with them (whiche conteinethe many mennes almes gathered for the poore in the name off the congregation / and to leaue them all deſtitute / and alſo to leaue certeine preachers appointed by them (whiche hauehave ſerued the churche a yere and moore / and to whom they promiſed that they ſhulde lack nothing) in a great deale off de…t to other men for their neceſſary bourde▪
And where they playe ſuch prankes / they caſte o… brethern in the teeth ſtill with pouertie / by the waie off reproche / before the Magiſtrate. Let them go too therfore / ſeinge their pleaſure is ſuche and nomber their owne cōpanye and leaue owte their ſeruauntes / their boyes / and ſuche as depende vppon Chambers purſe (for he hathe made it his owne / and dedicated it to his owne propertie) and let them tell vsus then / howe many there be left on their parte / yff they be not aſhamed to tell howe manie they be: Where we did comforte our poore brethern to oure power whom Chambers running awaye with the bagge Had made aſtoniſhed / and woulde hauehave had them vtterly diſcouraged / they lay it to oure charge as euell done: what is there manifeſte declaration els but that the poore of our congregation ſhuld be vtterly deſtitute not onelyonly of relieff but alſo off all hope of reliefe whiche hathe euer bin the vttermoſte comforte off ſuche as be in myſerie.
In the Diſcipline it ſelff an obiection.
Horne.The next thinge nowe where in we agree not / is / that whiche is ſpoken off the 2. newe Miniſters. This they treat vppon in the 7. Article. Th…s we defende / that the ſcripture doth leane and inclyne rather vntounto one / than vntounto 2. whiche one / as he muſte not be aboue the reſte by lordeſhipp / ſo yet ought he to be aboue other in charge and in burthē / in as muche as he muſte nedes geue a greater accoumpte / then the reſte for the flock cōmitted vntounto him and to his charge. Theis we are able to proue. Firſte / by the circumſtances off the places off ſcriptures conſidered / ſecondly / by the interpretacions off auncient fathers / and the beſt lerned men off oure tyme or latter daies. Thirdly / in the examples of the churches inſtituted by the Apoſtells / and moſt holy men after their tyme / foorthly / this newe order off 2. Miniſters or moo / hathe bene (as all the wyſeſte men hauehave alwaies reaſoned) the ſeeds ād fountains of all diſſentions and cōtentions. And like as for order ſake and for conſeruation off the churches in peace / oure elders thought / that one ſhulde neceſſarely be aboue the reſte: ſo alſo in this oure remembrance / the greateſt lerned men as Caluin / Brentius / and many other do think. Off theis matters the beſte inſtituted and reformed churches in Germany can alſo be the beſte witneſſes. Theis / we profeſſe that we bothe can and will more largely ſhewe as farther occaſion ſhal hereafter ſerue / whiche we cannot doo nowe for that we be lymited to ſo ſhort a time.
The anſwere.
VVhithead.As concerninge the two Miniſters off the worde. We affirme that it is lawfull by the worde off God to hauehave either 2. or moo.
Where theis men ſaye the ſcriptures do leane rather to one that is to affirme onelyonly / and to proue nothinge / where as Paule almoſte in all his Epiſtles writeth allwaies as vntounto moo off equall authoritie in euerie churche and not as vntounto one principall. Where they alleadge the ancient Doctors / Ierome whiche is the moſte diligent in H…ſtorie matters / reporteth moſte plainly that in the beginninge there were many / and afterwarde for the auoidinge of diſſentions / the chieff authoritie was cōmitted vntounto one as the chieff. But yet ſaithe he / that was donne rather by the ſtatute off men then by the authoritie off God. Where they ſpeake ſo muche off the miſch…ffe off contention in the churche / we confeſſe it is a great euell / But that tyranny …s a more peſtiferous deſtruction to the churche / and that tyranny crept into the churche by one / the Biſhopp off Rome / maye teache vsus at large. Therfore / for as muche as bothe waies / either by one or by moo / euells maie happen / we thought good to beware more diligently of the greater euell. Where they bringe in Caluin for one / we maruell with what face they can do that ſeinge it is owte off all dowte / that he vponupon one daie and in one houre inſtituted two Miniſters off equall authoritie in all thinges in the Engliſhe congregation whiche is at Geneua. And alſo ſeinge that in the 8. chapter and 42. and 52. diuiſions off his Chriſtian Inſtitution / he declareth openly that there were from the beginninge moo miniſters off the worde off equall authoritie in the churche off Chriſte. Where they alleage the examples off the churches off Germany we alſo want not examples off the dutche churche at Emden wherin their be 3. Miniſters off the worde off equall authoritie. And off the frenche churche off this Citie / and off the Engliſhe churche off Geneua / yea and Caluin himſelff is counted ſuperior to his felowes not by authoritie off office / but in reſpect off his lerninge and me rites. Therfore in aſmuche as it is alſo permitted vntounto vsus by the magiſtrates app…intement / to chuſe one or moo: let them leaue their wranglinge for a thinge indifferent / as though i… it were for lyffe and lande. Where they profeſſe that they will make large proffe off this matter at leyſure / let them profeſſe theis gaye glorious promyſes ſo longe as they will / ſo they knowe the longer they labor in this matter / ſo muche leſſe ſhall they bothe ſhewe and bringe to paſſe
The obiection to the 8. Article.
Horne.In the 8. Article Miniſters committ and aſſigne the burthen and cure (wherwith they are charged) vntounto others with ouer muche facilitie: We demaund alſo this / whiche appeareth not plainly inough in their Diſcipline / to whom perteineth it to allowe their allegations and excuſes / when they will leaue their charges vntounto others.
The anſwere.
VVhithead.What inhumanitie is it / not to be content / that the miniſters off the worde (vponupon waightie cauſes / as ſicknes or vrgent buſines off importance) ſhuld be eaſed off their burthens? as though they that fynde faulte at this nowe / permitted not the ſame to themſelues before / rough againſte other / and ouer fauorable to themſelues.
And where they demaunde vntounto whom it perteinethe to allowe their lawfull cauſes / we wonder / that they / nother redde ioyntly in the ſame place the name off Seniors / to whom the matter is committed / nor remember that generall pointe in the 36. article / that the gouernement off the whole churche is committed to the miniſters and Seniors.
The obiection to the 13. Article.
Horne.We allowe the tranſlatinge off bookes. But that ſo open a lawe ſhulde be made for that matter / that is the thinge we fynde fault withe. For it bothe conteineth that whiche is a peſtilent matter to oure congregation / by meanes off danger off ſuch as are wont to traueile as ſtrangers vpp hither vntounto vsus owt of Englande / as alſo it maie be reprehended in that it ſemeth to ſmell and tend openly to the priuate commoditie off ſome men.
The anſwere.
Where it is ſignified that certeine bookes godly and fitt either to inſtructe / VVhithead.or comforte oure countrie men in this calamitie off oures and off oure countre / ſhuld be tranſlated in to our tonge then the whiche there can be nothinge more profitable or neceſſarie / they ſaie it is a peſtilente matter forſoothe / bicauſe it is ſo openly mentioned: as though by ſpeaking nothinge / it might be perſwaded that we do nothinge here but ſlepe for wher they add towching the priuate commoditie off ſome in ſo common a profit / we cannot geſſe what that meanethe in as muche as all men that hauehave in theis miſerable daies / yet hitherto cauſed bookes to be ſet foorthe in oure tonge hauehave rather loſt then wonne by them.
The obiection to the 16. Article.
In the 16.Horne. Article the cuſtodie off the treaſure off the churche perteineth not neceſſarily to the Deacons by the worde off God. And at this daye many reformed churches do not obſerue it and moreouer it ſemethe more profitable vntounto oure congregation to hauehave it otherwiſe. Fowrthly the moſte parte off the auntienteſt churches keepe a plaine other cuſtome.
The anſwere.
Iff they be able to ſhewe ſo plaine a place in all the whole Scripture for anie other that ought to hauehave the cuſtodie off the treaſure off the churche as is in the 6.VVhithead. off the Actes off the Apoſtells / for the Deacones / we yelde vntounto them. Yea / and Caluin ſhall yelde alſo (whoſe name they oftentimes wonderous confidently and falſely alleadge) who / in the …. Chapter off the Inſtitution off a Chriſten man in the 55. diuiſion / thinketh plainly as we doo / aſwell concerninge the cuſtodie / as the diſtribution off all churche mony and vtterethe the ſame in plaine wordes. In the primatiue churche / ſaith he / the Deacons receaued (euen as it was vnderunder the apoſtells) faithfull peoples dayly oblations and the yerely reuenewes off the churche / to thentent they ſhuld beſtowe them vppon true vſes. We deſier them nowe to ſhewe vsus more plainly / vntounto what other men that charge dothe rather belonge then to the deacons / &c. But they ſaye manie reformed churches obſerue not this / ād that it will be more profitable for oure congregatiō to hauehave it otherwiſe And that the moſte parte of the aunciēteſt churches keepe ſtill an other cuſtome This (as we ſayde before) is onelyonly to affirme / and proue nothinge. But thus they doo a…moſte allwaies. But where they ſpeake off the auntienteſt churches / we beleue / they meane the popiſhe churches / but would not for ſhame vtter it: or ells let them ſhewe vsus what auncient churches thoſe be / yet this we maye not ouerpaſſe how that they affirme that it will be profitable for oure churche to hauehave it otherwiſe: that is / that one / as it is nowe / hauehave the cuſtodie alone / know alone / and diſtribute the churche mony alone and make accoumpt alone / and to himſelff alone. But we are ready to proue either to the magiſtrate / or to the worlde (in caſe the Magiſtrate ſo permit it) bothe by teſtimonies / reaſons / and matters in dede / that this is not onelyonly not profitable / but alſo it hathe and is vtterly pernitious / and to the plaine vndooinge off oure churche.
The obiection to the 17. Article.
Horne.We fynde faulte / that the election off the Deacons is not free ynough. For the riche men muſte be allwaies taken. Alſo in that they ought to depend vppon the will and councell off the elders / where nowe agreat parte off the elders bothe liue and depende vponupon the Deacons purce. There mouth therfore ſemethe to be ſtopped / ſo as they dare neuer reproue and ouerſore correcte the Deacons when they offende.
The anſwere.
There was neuer man that was in his right witt whiche denied i… to be moſte profitable for the churche / VVhitheadto hauehave ſuche men choſen to be Deacons / as the leaſt ſuſpition can be had in. Where Horne and Chambers affirme that a great parte off the Elders liue and depend vponupon the Deacons purce / it is a plaine ſlaunderous reporte.
But admit there be one or two amonge them off the poorer ſorte that ſhall perhapps hauehave nede now and then off ſome relieff off the churche monie. Do not yow (Horne and Chambers) knowe that they hauehave byn richer in tymes paſte / and excepte they preferred Religion to riches) maye be richer when they will? And nowe as they are become willingly baniſhed men / ſo are they willinglye poore men for the ſame Religions ſake that ye will ſeeme to profeſſe? Wherfore then had ye rather enuiouſly to reprehend pouertie in ſuche a one then gentlie to cōmend ſo great a vertue / but that ye are driuen hereto by griefe of your ſtomakes through malice. What? Dothe Paule require welthe in Elders (as ye doo) or vertue? Go too / and ſhewe vsus owte off Paule that this your purce welthe / is ſo neceſſary in an elder: We dare affirme that ſuche a one ſhulde hauehave byn off more authoritie with Paule as alſo with all men that be godly / and more worthie to be an elder by reaſon off his pouertie / for the whiche he is ſo contemned at your hande. But poore elders dare not (ye muſte vnderſtande) reproue offendinge Deacons: Do not yow Horne and Chambers knowe that in the primatiue churche / Biſhopps them ſelues / had their appointed liuinge owte off the treaſure off the churche / whiche was in the Deacons handes: and yet the Deacons (in caſe they did amiſſe) were neuer the leſſe ſharply corrected off them? And yet theis men that requier ſuch ruffling riche elders / woulde hauehave Deacons off the poorer ſorte. But by what example / and by what reaſon? why cannot ye beinge Chriſtians be content in exile aſwell with poore Elders as with poore Deacons? we remember that one off yow ſaied openly in our hearinge / and in the hearing of manie other that yow coulde not with your conſcience be vnderunder ſuch miniſters and ſuch Seniors as oure church hathe nowe choſen. If ye can finde no other faulte in them then willfull pouertie / the congregation alſo can not repent them yet off the miniſters and Seniors whom they hauehave choſen: and as for this pure conſcience off yours we paſſe not for it. But we think / yff welthe be to reſpected in anie that is in Eccleſiaſticall Miniſtery it is to be be reſpected chieffly in Deacons / that they medle with the churche monie with owte ſiniſtre ſuſpition. In dede abowte 4. monethes paſte / ye had Deacons / ſurely honeſt men we ſaie not nay / but yet ſuche as for their ſlender abilitie ye made ſuch vnderlinges / that ye brought not onelie the honeſt Good men but alſo the miniſterie off Deacons (to the great iniurie off the apoſtells ordinaunce) into very muche contempte. And in caſe we hauehave thought Good to be ware (by all meanes) off that euill / ye ought not to hauehave byn greued at it / but rather to hauehave reioiſed in the churches behalff. But herein there is one great ſinne / that this is not done by yow / but rather againſt your mindes ſeinge ye think nothinge to be right / nor anie thinge to ſtande in force vnleſſe it proceede off yow.
The Obiection againſt the 18. Article.
Horne.The miniſters ſhall be priuie howe muche monie ther is / but not howe it is beſtowed. This is agaīſte the cuſtome of the auncienteſt and beſte inſtituted churches / Yff Caluin be ſo in your iudgement I hope yow will allowe his 2. letters befor….and contrary to the Iudgemente and mynde off the greateſt lerned men that be in theis daies as Caluin and others / whiche as they permit the diſtribution vntounto the Deacons / euen ſo / will they hauehave it donne at the arbitrement and apoointment off the Elders.
The anſwere.
VVhithead.The Miniſters (ſaie they) ſhall be priuie howe muche monie there is / but not how it is beſtowed. Where find yow in oure booke theis wordes: (but not how it is beſtowed?) And yet when he hath added it / off his owne / lorde / howe he triumpheth here off the cuſtome off the moſte auncienteſt churches / off the mindes off the greateſt lerned men / namely Maiſter Caluin / &c. In this matter the man truly ſemethe not to hauehave wanted ſpace and tyme wheroff he had to muche to write ſo fonde vanities / but that he lacked his eye ſight and ſome what ells beſides.
The obiection againſt the 19. Article.
Albeit they would couer the matter / Horne.yet by makinge off lawes / they make al openly knowen: For they diſcloſe thus muche / that we ſende owte oure gatherers to bringe other mennes liberalitie vntounto vsus: whiche thinge ſhall bringe great daunger to many in as muche as the enemyes off oure religion will eaſilie coniecture from whom this ſo great libiralitie cometh.
The anſwere.
There is a great fore ſight in theis men that they can reprehende that thinge in vsus whiche they themſelues hauehave done nowe alreadie theis 3.VVhithead. yeres but it is wel knowē that they ſend owte their gatherers / no more then it is / that we be at Franckford. And then be addeth that the ennemies maye eaſilie coniecture from whom this ſo great liberalitie commethe. We wonder what he meaneth or howe muche it is that he calleth ſo great. Dothe Chambers at vnwarres meane the greatneſſe off his purce? for as for vsus we hauehave yet hitherto ſent owte no bodie to gather / muche leſſe hauehave we receiued anie thinge by anye gatherer.
The obiection againſt the 21. Article.
We w…e not what they meane by the ſcoole.Horne. but howe ſo euer the matter is / it ſhall annoye vsus verie muche / yff they builde vp ſo many thinges with ſo ſolemne a profeſſion / and ſhall bringe oure aduerſaries into ſuch a ſuſpition / that we receiue muche more off other men then commeth to oure handes in dede. And this ſhall comme off it that verie many ſhall for oure ſakes be moſte ſtraitly handled and examined.
The anſwere.
What yff 2 or 3 Papiſtes liſte to lie / that we receiue many thouſands / VVhitheadſhall this breed great daunger to vsus and others / and ſhal many be moſte ſtraitly handled and examined therfore? They maye faine daungers owte off euerie thinge iff they will. But he thinketh it woulde not be knowen that here are ſtudentes / lectures / and Diſputations / yff we had ſpoken nothinge off the ſcoole in oure diſcipline. For it was not knowen that there was a colledge off ſtudentes at Zurick before. It is a world to ſe howe circumſpecte theis men be in wordes / when they are minded to ſpeak any thinge againſt this oure fooliſhe ſymplicitie. For what madneſſe is it / to think that thoſe thinges whiche be eueryevery daie open before mennes eyes are the more knowen / by one ſentence wrytten in a booke whiche verie fewe ſhall looke in.
The obiection to the 22.23. and 24. Article.
Horne.The ſhamefaſtnes off manie / is vnſhamefaſte ynough / and to be often diligently examined. And we thinke it neceſſarie that nothinge be donne in this behalff withowte conſent off the elders / who as they beſte knowe the ſtate off euerie man ſo they can and ought to make an exhortation at the diſtributing apte and fit for eueryevery mannes diſpoſition.
The anſwere.
VVhitheadThe ſhamefaſtnes off ſome is almoſte ſo farre attempted off ſome ſhameles men that their harte is clene caſte downe. For theis diſcreete diſpoſers off other mennes almes / hauehave by paſſing to muche on monye vtterly caſte awaye men / yea / bothe together the monie and men. And yet in the meane while / theis that withowte all ſhame / reaſon of ſhamfaſtnes forſooth / whom rather then thoſe that hauehave any ſparke off honeſte ſhamefaſtnes left / woulde go vntounto / they had rather almoſte die / yea / theis ge…le and ſhamfaſte diſpoſers hauehave with their odious behaui… d…en many men off notable good wittes and towardneſſe / ſome to the printinge howſe / ſome to be ſeruinge men / and to runne into England againe / with the perill bothe off bodie and ſoule. But off this caſe off euell handlinge / we ſhall commence matter againſte thies men (yff god will) and the magiſtrate geue vsus leaue / to thentent that good men maye be the more ware henſfoorthe that they committ not their liberall almes ſo eaſilie to anie one mannes fidelitie hereafter.
The obiection againſt the 26. Article.
The lawe ordeined for thoſe that trauell by the waie ſhall call vntounto vsus all ſuche as be the moſte idle perſons and the verieſt vnthriftes / Horne.and alſo Papiſtes whiche will fame themſelues to be Religious that they may be holpen as we hauehave lerned by experience.
The anſwere.
The trauelour off oure nation hauinge neede by the waye to be holpen on his iourney (yff the treaſure off the churche will beare it) pleaſe not theis men. They ſaie / VVhithead.they hauehave lerned by experience that idle perſons and vnthriftes and alſo papiſtes are called hither by this meanes. By what experience / we beſeche yow? before this lawe was made or ſithens? yff they were called hither before this lawe was made / they were no… called by occaſion off this lawe. Let them ceaſſe therfore to impute vntounto a lawe / that prouideth onelyonly for thoſe that be godly and needie / thoſe thinges that naugtie packes hauehave euer hitherto donne and will do ſtill hereafter.
The obiection to the 27. Article.
Horne.It is not an almes / but a compulſion. Beſides this / off theis that are founde to be the ſetters foorth off theis lawes their are not paſte 17. or 18. Whiche hauehave competent ynoughe to liue vponupon and to ſuſtaine themſelues. And off them there woulde not onelyonly fiue geue heretofore / when collections were made / and the ſumme off all their diſtributions came neuer to 1…. Dallers / they gaue ſo ſparingly and ſo ſlenderly. And parhappes their is ſome what herein to keepe back and and fray awaie all ſuch as be off the richer ſorte from vsus that they came not hither / when they ſhall ſe ſo fewe riche dwell amonge ſo manie poore / whiche neuertheles ſhalbe compelled to ſuſtaine and beare verie great charges at ſundrie contributions.