Answer to Campian the Jesuit, Reasons · Answer 3
WILLIAM WHITAKERS. The anſwere to the third Reaſon.
WHat is it, Campian, you further bring vntounto vsus? you propound vntounto vsus the nature of the Church, wherein you bring nothing beſides your accuſtomed manner of vaine and childiſh oratorie, neither worthy the hearing of our Vniuerſitie men, or anſwerable to the opinion that is held of you. As touching the Church there are many queſtions and great controuerſies, and at this day almoſt all diſputations about religion are reduced to this head. For youraDVR. Jt is well, that once you will acknowledge vsus to be Catholiks. WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name, my meaning is to giuegive it you no otherwiſe, thē vſually the name of man is giuen to a dead and dry corpes, where nothing is but skinne and bone. He is a Catholike, not who followeth the popiſh Apoſtaſie, but that profeſſeth the doctrine of Chriſt. Catholikes being toſſed with the boyſterous ſtormes of other diſputations, hauehave been willing to takebDVR. Is it ſo great a fault to flie into the hauen of the Church? WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we taxe you for, but that you couer all your errors by pretending the name of the Church. And if we by manifeſt arguments out of the Scripture, reproue and refell your hereſies, you cry out you are the Church, and by that thinks to defend all things, though they be neuer ſo abſurde. harbor in this hauen of the Church. Here they dwell, here they place all their hopes of ſafety and victorie, heere they hide themſelues, whenſoeuer they are beaten out of the field. Therefore they fortifie this ſconce with all the skill they can, and ſtrengthen it with munition on all ſides; for which cauſe I maruell ſo much the more to find you, from whom ſo great things are expected, in this controuerſie to be ſo ſleight and ſhallow; for you neither teach, nor conclude, nor yet propound any thing for your Church againſt ours, which hath in it either forceable reaſon or proofe. But it may be this is but your firſt skirmiſh, you will happely afterwards deale with vsus hand to hand; yet I wil trace you out in your owne ſteps, that I may lay hold of you, if happely I may find you any where certeine.
So ſoone, ſay you, as the aduerſarie heard the Church but named, he waxed wanne: yea Campian, it made him bluſh, when he perceiued ſo chaſt & holy a matron, ſo impiouſly & inſolently to be abuſed by you. The Church doth euer expell you, and deny al commerce with you. Yet you as very audacious & importunate wooers giuegive not ouer your ſuite to compaſſe her. Sure there was no cauſe why your aduerſary ſhould wax ſo wanne, vnleſſe he feared ſome euill meaſure from ſuch cutthroats as you are. Yet notwithſtanding, ſay you, he hath deuiſed one thing, which I would wiſh you to note well. You will ſure acquaint vsus with ſome great and vnheard of matter; verily I much deſire to know what is this one thing: yet I feare it will proue ſtarke nothing; and for all your throes, you wil bring forth but a mouſe. As for the honorable praiſes of the Church, you mention, we both acknowledge thoſe, and ſpeake far greater things of it: but verily they agree not to your Church at all; for it is the Babyloniſh whoore, a branch cut off from the true Vine, a denne of theeues, a broad way leading to deſtruction, the kingdome of hell, the body of Antichriſt, a ſinke of errors, a great mother of fornications, the Church of the wicked, out of which eueryevery Chriſtian ought to depart, which Chriſt ſhal one day fearefully deſtroy, and giuegive her the iuſt recompence of all her ſinnes. In vaine then do you reckon vp the praiſes of the Church, vnleſſe you can demonſtrate that they are proper to your Church, which you ſhall neuer be able to doe, ſo long as Rome ſtandeth. He would not, ſay you, ſeeme to gain-ſay the Church, hee kept craftily ſtill the name of the Church, but the thing it ſelfe by his definition he tooke quite away. We verily, Campian, cDVR. Why do you not then defend her authoritie, but diminiſh and leſſen it, yea and horriblie blaſpheme, affirming that the ſpouſe of Christ may erre and be deceiued? WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaſpheme, making the Church equall to God, to whom it is only peculiar not to erre, not be deceiued. For the Church may erre though ſhe be his Spouſe, but not perſiſt in any deadly error: as the Church of the Apoſtles did, when ſhee thought her husbands kingdome was of this world, yea and after ſhewed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles.reuerence and honor the Church, as our mother, and in our definition wee both retaine the name, and cleerely ſet out the nature of the thing it ſelfe. But you hauing loſt the Church long ſince, do yet challenge the name and the vaine title of the church. Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you; why I pray you? becauſe we deſcribe the Church by thoſe properties which doe altogether darken and hide it. Wee aſcribe thoſe properties to the Church which compriſe the true nature of the Church, whoſe preſence make a Church, and their abſence marre or deſtroy a Church. But what are thoſe properties which you affirme to darken and hide the Church? we verily iudge this to be proper to the true Church, todDVR. The Church is not to be ſought for by theſe, as by notes, but they are to be learned from the Church. WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow becauſe the word is no where elſe truly preached, but in the Church, nor the Sacramēts purely adminiſtred, that the Church is not to be knowne and found out by then? Yea the contrary followeth, becauſe they are not elſewhere but in the Church: therefore by theſe notes the true Church is to be knovvne and demonſtrated. For if only Peripatetians profeſſe the Philoſophy of Aristotle, then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians, and diſtinguiſheth them frō all other ſects of Philoſophers. DVR. Thus to ſearch out the Church, is but to ſecke out one vnknowne thing by another, which is more vnknowne. WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture vvere more hidden and vnknovvne then the Church, and the Scripture could better bee knovvne by the Church, then it by the Scripture: vndoubtedly no. 1. Becauſe the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church; and then is a ting hknovvne, vvhen the cauſe is knovvne. 2. I here are many and diuers Churches, but there is but one conſtant Scripture alvvaies like it ſelfe. 3. If at any time there vvas euer doubt made of the Scripture; yet there hauehave been many moe queſtions and doubts concerning the Church. Laſtly the Scripture is called a Canon, a rule; novv the rule as it is ſtraighter, ſo is it more certeine then the thing that is ſquared by it. DVR. The notes of the Church ought to be ſuch, as are agreed vponupon among all, as are proper to it, neither can be challeng…d probablie by any other Church. WHIT. pag. 356. I conf…ſſe as much, and ſuch are our notes in all things; vvhereas yours, are nothing leſte. DVR. But eueryevery ſect layeth claime to your notes. WHIT. pag. 256. What then, vvhat if you lay claime to the things I poſſeſſe, are they therfore not mine ovvne? Be it that heretikes do lay claime to the Scriptures, yet they doe it vvithout all ſhevv of reaſon, and out of the Scriptures only can they be confuted. heare the word of Chriſt, and keepe it, to vſe wholly and purely thoſe Sacraments, which Chriſt, when hee departed from his Church, left her, as a pledge of his louelove to her, and as a proofe of her loyalty to him. Theſe we maintaine as the moſt true and ſubſtantiall properties of the Church, and this definition, made of the naturall and inbred principles and grounds of the thing, which we define, you ſhall neuer bee able to ouerthrow. I pray you what is there heere that hideth the Church? doth the word of God; do the Sacraments hide the Church? yea theſe are they that make thecDVR. Why ſay you then that your Church lay hid for ſo many yeares together? WHIT. pag. 260. Our Church did neuer lie ſo hid, but it vvas diſcerned by your Pope, vnleſſe for ſo many yeares he perſecuted ſhadovves. Church appeare as cleere as any thing at noone day, theſe giuegive vntounto the Church ſtrength, health and beauty: aboliſh theſe, there will remaine nothing but the carkaſe of the Church. What drowſie dreame then is this, you tell vsus of an airy body? as if we denied that the Church could be found on the earth; wee neuer doubted but the Church euer hath been, and euer ſhal be vponupon the earth: though we alſo grant that the ſight of it being ſometime ſo cleere that it may be ſeen of all: at another time is ſo obſcured & euer ſhadowed, that one can hardly know it. But no Church pleaſeth you, ſaue that which is continually flouriſhing, and which is viſible to all mens eies, which hath a continuall ſucceſſion of Biſhops to be fetched from the beginning, and which is ſubiect to the Pope. Now Campian, as for you, you come to late to tell vsus of theſe frantike popiſh dreames; wee hauehave heard, diſcuſſed, and diſtolued them, aboue a thouſand times. Doe you thinke you are able to make vsus beleeue, that the ſtate of the Church is ſuch, that it cannot be hid, that treachery ſhould preuaile nothing againſt it, an open enemy nothing, Antichriſt himſelfe nothing? Theſe can neuer quite ouerthrow the Church, they may driue it to ſtraits and thruſt it into corners.August. 4.8. Augustine compareth the Church to the Moone, which ſometime while it is inlightned by the Sunne-beames, ſhineth out, a… another time it is depriued of the greateſt part of the light, and ſometime ſhineth not at all. So the Church ſometime ſhineth moſt brightly, ſometime is more obſcured, ſometime hardly appeareth, and her whole courſe is continually gayning and loſing of light.
Will you that I manifeſt it to you by examples? while Dauid and Salomon raigned, the Church flouriſhed in Iſraell; but when Ahab raigned, the face of the Church was ſo far obſcured, that the moſt diuine ProphetfDVR. Elias ſpake not of the whole Church, but of the kingdome of Iſraell, wherein he liued. WHIT. pag. 261. He liued at that time, not in the kingdome of Iſraell, but in the moūtaine of God, Moūt Horeb. 1. King. 19.8. But grāt he ſpake of Iſraell only: it is no leſſe for our purpoſe. For that which hapned there, that no good men appeared, though many lay hid, ſo it may fall out in other churches, and at other times, that none or few of the faithfull appeare; yet God may hauehave a multitude of vnknowne beleeuers. Eliah complained that there was not one remaining ſaue himſelfe. If there could be ſuch a hauocke made of the Church,1 King. 14.10. hhm. 10.3. that of all that great number of the godly, there was ſcarce one to be ſeene, (though there was a good ſumme remaining of them.) it need be no wonder that in the kingdome of Antichriſt, who ſurpaſſeth all Ahabs and Iezabels in all brabarous cruelty, that the Church ſhould be ſo waſted, that there ſhould appeare a maruellous ſcarcity of faithfull men. And yet could Antichriſt in that great hauocke of religion and the Church, neuer ſo far preuaile, but there was a remanant of many thouſand thouſands of Saints, who neuer bowed their knees to the beaſt, neither euer receiued the marke of the beaſt. Let vsus paſſe along to thoſe times when Chriſt liued vponupon the earth, and conſider the ſtate of the Church of Ieruſalem. For no Church can be more like to the Church of Rome, then that, as the ſtate of it was, when Chriſt did performe the worke of our ſaluation. They had the Scripture, they were a people zealous of the law, they had the Temple, they had Leuits, Prieſts, yea a high Prieſt; what was wanting here to make a perfect Church? Chriſt at length ſheweth himſelfe openly, and bringeth that happie meſſage of ſaluation; this very Church hated, perſecuted, curſed, and in the end killed this Chriſt, the Son of God, the lagat of his Father, the teacher of celeſtiall doctrine; the author of our ſaluation. This Church then, Campian, was it a true Church or no, what think you? If it was, then the true Church hated Chriſt, and iudged him worthy of death. If it was not, then where and what is the true Church? for Chriſt at the firſt had a very ſmale number, that if you anſweregDVR. The Church vndoubtenly was in Chriſt and his Apostes. WHIT. pag. 262. See then what followeth for our aduantage; it it ſo fell out that the true Church was not amongſt them who had a lawfull ſucceſſion ordeined of the Lord; who alſo had the place, the name, the dignity, and magnificent ornaments of the Church; but it was in a few, who after a ſort were cut off from the Church, it is a thing without queſtion, that the Church is not alwaies to bee ſought for in a viſible multitude, and an outward ſucceſſion of men: but often times in obſcure places, and amongſt a very few. Chriſt and his company was the Church, then you fall into that crime, which you reproue vsus for. If then this might befall thehDVR. That which befell the Synagogue of Hieruſal…, cannot befall to the Church of Chriſt, whieth the Prophets hauehave plainly foretold ſhould neuer periſh. Iſay. 19.21. Icrem. 31.31. Eze…. 37.26. WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Hieruſalem was not the Church of Chriſt? what then happened vntounto it, which may not befall my others? And for the Propheſies you recier, they belong to the company of the elect, and not to your popiſh Church to which the Lord neuer promiſed any ſuch thing. Chriſt verily will neuer endure that his Church ſhould be aboliſhed or periſh: but it is one thing for it to periſh, and another to lye hid for a time, and not to bee ſeene; he hath promiſed it ſhall euer be preſerued, not that it ſhall euer be viſible and glorious. DVR Chriſt hath promiſed to be with his Church to the end of the world. WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church ſhall neuer be hid, nor ſhut vp in a few? nothing leſſe: for hee hath promiſed that whereſoeuer two or three are gathered together in his name, he will be in the middeſt of them. Church of Hieruſalem, that though it had, and by continued ſucceſſion inioyed the name of the Church, yet in very truth it was nothing elſe but a caue and denne of theeues: I ſee not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it ſelfe, why it may not be ſaid long agot to hauehave loſt the body of the Church, though it keepe ſtill the viſard, the name, and the veſtments of the Church. What if the Romiſh Church condemned Luther? ſhall we ſay therefore Luther is an heretike, and that it is the Catholike Church? The Church of Ieruſalem condemned Chriſt, and him and his they would hauehave denied to be the true Church, if by any colour they could, that they might free themſelues out of thoſe ſtraights, they were brought into. But happily they will ſay, there is no ſuch thing to be found in Chriſts new Church.2. Theſſ. 2. But S. Paul propheſieth of an Apoſtaſie, that ſhould be before Chriſts comming to iudgement,iDVR. The Fathers hauehave vnderſtood the place of Antichrist, or of a defection from the Romane Empire. WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Hieruſalem (a man you much eſteeme) Catech. 11. doth interpret it of an Apoſtaſie from the true faith, ſo doth Chryſostome, Oecumenius, ſo many others. Yea your Diuines of Rhemes hauehave ſo expounded it. which Apoſtafie is from religion and the Church, as the moſt auncien… Fathers do vnderſtand it: and Chriſt propheſied euidently of the ſmall number of his.Luke. 18.8. When the Soune of man ſhall come ſhall he find kDVR. Auguſtine de vultat. Eccleſiae cap. 13. ſaith, VVE vnderstand this ſpeech, either for the perfection of faith, or for the multitude of the wicked, or for the ſmall number of the good. So doth Hierome contr. Luciferano…. WHIT. pag. 270. What if theſe Fathers miſtooke the place, muſt we reſt in their expoſition? we hauehave Nazianzene cont. Arran. Theophyla. in 28. Luc. Caietan vponupon this place againſt them: nay further when Augustine writeth that there is ſignified the multitude of the wicked, and the ſmall number of the good, doth he not defend our opinion, that the number of the wicked ſhall be great, but of the godly ſmall?faith on the earth? If hardly any faith ſhal remaine on the earth, and the Church cannot be ſaid to be a Church, but improperly without faith, it followeth neceſſarily that when Chriſt commeth, their number ſhall be very ſmall, who may truly be called the Church. You hauehave now thoſe Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church vntounto vsus, vnleſſe you thinke your ſelfe better able to puttray it, then the holy Ghoſt himſelfe could do, who hath ſet out the Church in farre better colours and manner, then I find yours to be, in which there is nothing left but painted walles. But, ſay you, there are Epiſtles of Chriſt written to the ſeauen Churches which were in Aſia; there are alſo diuers Epistles which were written by S. Peter, S. Paul, S. Iohn, and by others vntounto ſundrie Churches; in the Acts of the Apostles wee find mention made of manie Churches begun and enlarged. What then, Campian, what think you may be inferred hereupon? Theſe were not knowne to God only, but alſo to all Chriſtians: who euer denied that? Theſe ſame Churches of Aſia to whom Chriſt ſent Epiſtles and the Churches of the Corinthians, Philippians, Theſſalonians, Coloſſians, to which Paul writ, were particular viſible Churches. Did we euer ſeeme to make queſtion whether a Church might be viſible or no? we verily call all thoſe viſible and apparant Churches, which profeſſe the pure word of God and hold thoſe rights and Sacraments which are commaunded by Chriſt. And ſo at this day by the bleſſing of God there are many viſible Churches in England, Scotland, Germanie, Fraunce, and other parts of Chriſtendome, though it greeue you Ieſuits they ſhould be ſo viſible and apparant. But what kind of reaſoning is this?lDVR. All particular Churches on which the Catholike Church conſisteth, as on parts, are viſible: therefore the Catholike Church it ſelfe is viſible. WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholike, are not viſible: becauſe it conſiſteth not of the Churches of this time only, but of Churches of the times paſt, and of thoſe which ſhall be in the time to come. But ſay it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only, yet it followeth not that it muſt be viſible: nay ſo long … particulars are viſible, it cannot, for when all the parts are growen into o…, then is the whole viſible, but not each ſeuerall part; ſo when the ſeuerall parts may be ſeene, the whole cānot be ſeen, becauſe the parts are no…ow become one. So the cōtrary to your collection will follow that becauſe the parts are viſible, the whole cannot be ſeene. Thoſe Churches to whom Chriſt and his Apoſtles writ were viſible: therefore the Catholike Church is euer viſible. HaueHave you learned ſuch Logicke as this at Rome in your famous ſchoolts of Ieſuits? or doe you, Campian, thinke that theſe manner of Allegations ſhould goe for proofes in the eares of our Vniuerſity men? but where are thoſe Churches now, which were then ſo flouriſhing? Shew me the Church of Epheſus, Smyrna, Pergamus, Corinthes, and the reſt. Now they are no where to be ſeene, and are no lōger Churches. And that which we hauehave ſeen already befal thoſe Churches, teach vsus, I pray you, how it may not alſo betide the Church of Rome? And though Rome become a heap, yet the Church ſhall be ſafe: neither ſhal the downfall of any citie or Empire euer be able to aboliſh it. And at this day there are many flouriſhing Churches, which are equall to your falſly called Catholike Church, for the number, & vndoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold.
But you ſay, That for 1500. yeares we could not ſpie out one towne, one village, one houſe ſeaſoned with our doctrine. Nay, Campian, that is very falſe,mDVR. The Arrians, M…cedonians, and all other auncient heretikes may by the ſame probability ſay as much. WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures, they may anſwere the ſame which we doe, for eueryevery Church which holdeth the Apoſtles doctrine, may profeſſe that all cities, village…, … which were religous, were ſeaſoned with their doctrine. for in the Apoſtles time, all Churches, all cities, all townes, eueryevery family embraced the ſame faith and religion which we now profeſſe. After that by little and little, the purity of doctrinenDVR. Tell me then from whom, and in what age any doctrine of our profeſſion was brought into the Church. WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is ſo very ſwift, that we may ſee it hath moued, though we cannot diſcerne the mouing of it: ſo ſuch is the myſtery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apoſtolicall; but the time when, and the manner how they were brought in, is not much to our purpoſe. And it were too long to tell all, yet heare ſome, Your Romiſh Biſhop a long time together was but equall to other Biſhops th…ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church. After the Chriſtian world was diuided into foure Prouinces, when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes, after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches, and for that purpoſe counterfeited the Councell of Nice: but he was repreſſed by the African Councell. Then Gregory the great, greatly inueyed againſt Iohn of Conſtantinople, becauſe he ſought the name of vniuerſall Biſhop, and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichriſt. Laſtly, Boniface the eight with a great ſumme obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide. And ſince that hee grew to that height, that hee made not only Churches and Kings, but the Chriſtian Emperour himſelfe to kiſſe his feete. But ſee another example. Time was when there were no images in Churches: As that of Epiphanius proueth, who rent a vaile in peeces, becauſe there was in it an image of Chriſt or of ſome Saint. But in time they were receiued into the Church, but no honor giuen them: yet after that, good Biſhops brake them and caſt them out againe; as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Biſhop of Maſſilia did, whom he thus checketh for it. In that you forbad them to be worſhipped, wee commend you, but that you brake them, we reprehend you. Gregor. regist. lib. 7. Epist. 9. Laſtly the ſecond Nicene Councell decreed, that they were not to be broken, yea that they were religiouſly to be worſhipped. And thus hath it ſucceeded in other things, as S. Paul did foretell…e ſaying; The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke. 2. Theſſ. 2.7. began to be corrupted, and diuers ſuperſtitions ſpread far and neare; though the holy Fathers did as much as they could, reſiſt,2. Theſſ. 2.7. vntill that myſtery of iniquitie, which tooke rooting in the very Apoſtles time, ſpread it ſelfeoDVR. VVhat can be ſpoken or imagined more wicked and impious. WHIT. pag. 278. Then propheſied S. Paul impiouſly, when he did ſo …ell of a departing, and that Antichriſt ſhould ſit in the Temple of God. Is this any other then that the myſterie of iniquitie ſhould ſpread it ſelfe ouer the Church? by all the parts of the Church, and at length poſſeſſed it wholy. Yet Antichriſt that man of ſinne, could neuer preuaile ſo farre, but a great multitude of the Saints remained; and thoſe, whoſe names were written in the booke of life, did vtterly abhorre all thoſe filthie and wicked ſuperſtitions of Antichriſt. For in the Church of Rome it ſelfe euen in the worth times of it, yet many were euer found, who worſhipped the God of their Fathers, and kept themſelues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie. And this can hiſtories of all times witneſſe, which I could now recite if it were needful, and reckon vp to you, many houſes, villages, townes, cities, and countries, where Chriſt had many and populous Churches. ThepDVR. This is very falſe, for in the Florētine Councell the Emperour Paleolus, together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Chriſt, and imbraced the Romane faith, yea and at this day they diſſent from vsus in few things, as Icremy the Patriarke of Conſtantinople hath plainly written. WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schiſmatickes, or vvhy obey they not the Pope? why came they not to the Councell of Trent? the Pope by al meanes hath ſought to hauehave thē ſubiect to him, but they ſtil cō temne him to his no ſmall griefe. It is true, the Emperour, the Patriarke, and a multitude of Biſhops came to the Florētine Coūcel. They agreed vvith thē in many things, …hers they diſſented; your Trāſubſtantiation they vtterly renoūced. At that time Ieſaphus their Patriarke ſuddenly died. Eugenius the Pope inſtantly vrged a nevv election. They denied to make any till they came to Conſtantinople. See you not hovv vvell they agree? I hauehave a booke of yours, not of Ieremies, neither vvill a ſmall thing make me beleeue it is his: for both the Grecian…, and particularly he, hath giuer great approbation of our Churches, as vve find it in his vvorkes publiſhed both in Greeke and Latin. Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it ſelf to your Church, and it is … oppoſite to you, as euer our Church was. And yet you ſo forge theſe things, as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnderunder his ſubiection. Vntill that vnhappy Monke, as you ſay, by his inceſt… marriage had defloured a Nunne, dedicated to God by … ſole… … or vntill that quarrelling Sw… had c…spired againſt his country, or that infamous …gate had vndertaken an vſurped authority in Ge…. So, Campian, go on to raile and reuile eueryevery good man, powre out the gall of your bitternes, ſeeing you hauehave vndertaken to ſpend all your venemous darts vponupon them. Luthers name is written in the book of life; and his memory ſhal euer be ſacred among all good men, and your reproaches ſhall not be able to pearce or wound him. It is a true ſaying, that a falſe repreach pierceth not the skinne: you call him Monke, & your ſelfe is but a Frier; now Monkes were euer accounted more honeſt then Friers. But he by inceſtuous marriage de…oured … Nom…, dedicated to God by ſolemne vow.qDVR. But you goe againſt S. Paul, who directly denounced damnation to thoſe who will marry, hauing broken their firſt ſaith; which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of ſingle life by incestuous marriages. WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apoſtle vnderſtādeth by that faith, the vow of virginity? Nay the ſcope of the place ſheweth vsus the contrary, for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes, whom he perſwadeth to marry, ſhould be taken into that office; only ſuch as were threeſcore yeares old, who may well abſtaine from marriages & follow this calling. Now if they be not of this age, he ſheweth what may be feared of them namely leſt that rather then they ſhould not many, they would wa… wa…on againſt Chriſt, and breake their firſt faith, which is not their vow, but the profeſſion of Chriſtian religion, which ſuch light buſwiues would eaſily co…, that they might inioy their pleaſures. And that this is his meaning the 1…. verſe ſheweth: For certeine are already turned backe after Satan; ſhewing what ſome had done, he admoniſheth them to be wary leſt others ſhould do the like. And as for the Fathers, if they did alſo expound theſe words, (as indeed they doe not) yet the argument is very weake in diuinity: The Fathers hauehave thus expounded it, therefore the expoſition is true. Luther indeed tooke to wife in holy wedlocke, a Virgin that once was intangled by a raſh & ſuperſtitious vow, after ſhe had bin more rightly inſtructed in the truth of religion. Exclaime bitterly as you liſt. Call Zuinglius alſo a ſwaſh buckler, ſeeing your ſelf is a player of a Price. But tell vsus wherein he did euer ſhew himſelfe ſuch a cutter? forſooth he boldly ventered his life with his fellow citizens.Slerdum lib. 8. Occolam. Epheſ. lib. 4. If Zuinglius at the commaund of the Senate went to warre againſt the enemies of his coū trie & religion, where he periſhed by cruell theeues, who lay in waite for him, what did he vnbefitting a valiant man, a good citizen, and a faithfull Paſtor to do. For whereas you challenge him with conſpiracie againſt his country, beſides that it is a ſhameleſſe lie, I wonder why you ſhould obiect ſuch a crime to him, ſeeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conſpire againſt their Prince and country. As for Caluin whom you call a ſeareback: runagate, the whole Church of Chriſt knoweth to be an excellent man, and a moſt conſtant ſeruant of the Lord: who was as farre from lewdnes and diſhonaſtie, as you are from ſhamefaſtnes and honeſty. If he was ſeared, S. Paul was ſo too,Gal. 6.17. yea & diuers others: but indeed he was not. And whereas you call him a runagate, I pray you tell vsus, where you hauehave liued for theſe diuers yeares, and remember what your ſelfe were. Caluin neuer forſooke the Church, hee once tooke vponupon him to gouerne, but there he liued with the ſpeciall louelove of all, and there he ended his daies: but why doe I anſwere you anything in defence of thoſe excellent and worthy men, whom you ſhal neuer iuſtly defame, though you burſt your hart with lying.
But let vsus now heare your communication as you call it. And heere you demaund, Whether we will ſubſcribe to the Church which flouriſhed theſe many hundred youres? we anſwere, we will ſubſcribe: but ſay you, to which Church? I anſwererDVR. He did not demaund whether you would ſubſcribe to that Church, which had continued in the precept of the Apostles, but vvhether to that Church, vvhichwhich hath flouriſhed theſe many hundred yeares; vvhichwhich if you vvould, you must needs yeeld as ouercome, vvhen none but ours hauehave flouriſhed thus long. WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romiſh Church had flouriſhed theſe many hundred yeares: or for many ages together in the opinion of men, it only h… the name of …e church: … will ſubſcribe to all Churches whether they flouriſhed now … they hold the Apoſtles doctrine: but you ſhall neuer proue … we muſt neceſſarily ſubſcribe to place, Sea, & ſucceſſion, no more then Chriſt & his diſciples were bound when there was no true Church flouriſhing vponupon the earth. to the Church which is built vponupon the foundation of the Prophets and Apoſtles: that is, to the Churches of Hieruſalem, Antioch, Epheſus, and all thoſe famous and excellent Churches of which wee reade in the Epiſtles written by the Apoſtles, yea euen to the auncient Church of Rome, to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oyſte…. Finally we ſubſcribe to thoſe Churches, of whom we reade in hiſtories that they kept the ſeed of that doctrine, which the Apoſtles taught among them, ſound & vncorrupt. Theſe Churches as long as they did continue in the Apoſtles doctrine, were true Churches; & to thoſe Churches we hauehave and euer will ſubſcribe. And by this I thinke we hauehave cut off the progreſſe of your conference, for we hauehave not giuen you ſuch an anſwere as you fained to your ſelfe. Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of ſand. but no anſwere will pleaſe you, vnleſſe we offer to ſubſcribe to your Romiſh Church: but that we iuſtly diſclaime, becauſe it hath fouly corrupted the … ſtles writing. You muſt find you out other ſubſcribers, Campian, for wee will ſubſcribe to none but the Apoſtolicall Churches. But one thing, ſay you, they will ſtill ſtand vponupon in darkenes, that where and in what place ſoeuer the Church is, there are con…eiued therein only Saints, and ſuch as are predestinate to go to heauen. We ſpeake not ſo of the Church as you write: for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to diſtinguiſh the Church, that it is ſometimesſDVR. I beleeue only one Catholike Church, as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me, which conteineth both the elect, and as many as profeſſe true religion. Now you teach me to beleeue two Churches. WHIT. pag. 286. This diſtinction taketh not away the vnity of the Church, no more then when the Church is ſaid to be m…an and u… phant, vniuerſall and particular. For the viſible and …uiſible Church make but one: called viſible, for the outward policy or order of it, which is ſeene and diſcerned; inuiſ…ble becauſe Gods election and the electes faith is not to be ſeene with eies. And this diſtinction we hauehave, Eſay. 1.9. Matth. 22.14. As for the Creedes you mention, we beleeue them in this point aſwell as you. But tell vsus; this one Catholike Church what is it? If you reſtraine the name to the viſible Church; firſt, you exclude both that in heauen of the Saints, and that which ſhall be of theſe which a…e vnborne, and yet do belong to the Catholike Church: ſecondly you place faith in the ſenſe, which the Apoſtle ſaith is of things which are not ſeene, Heb. 11.1. As for that Catholike Church which we beleeue, it is the company of all the elect, euen as many as hauehave been from the beginning of the world, and ſhall be to the end; therefore it is called the Apoſtolike and holy Church, the communion of Saints. And to this communion belong no prophane and wicked men, no hypocrites; becauſe they hauehave no fellowſhip with Chriſt. For the holy Church is the myſticall body of Chriſt, of which body no member can at any time periſh. viſible and ſometimes inuiſible. In a particular viſible Church, of which they are members, who will heare the Word, and receiue the Sacraments: we confeſſe there are many fained Chriſtians, who had rather hauehave the viſard of faith, then true faith indeed. An inuiſible Church we affirme to containe only the godly, who with a true faith lay hold on the Goſpell. Theſe though they may bee ſeene as long as they liue amongſt men, ſeeing they are men as others bee, yet becauſe neither their faith nor Gods louelove, which maketh them members of the Church, is viſible, we affirme that this Church, conſiſting of holy and faithfull men, is altogether inuiſible. Chriſt is the head of this Church, to this only the elect ca… ioyne themſelues, wee then acknowledge another Church beſides that, which cōteineth only Saints (for ſo ſhould there be no viſible Church at all) but what company of men ſoeuer vponupon the earth doth profeſſe the doctrine of the Apoſtles and Prophets, we profeſſe that to be the true Church of Chriſt, though many wicked men be found in it. Neither are we the firſt who did inuent and deuiſe theſe things, as you ſay of vsus, but are ready to proue thē both by the holy ſcripture and by authority of Antiquity. Comfort then your ſelfe, Campian, as much as you can, with the wits of our Vniuerſity men, and promiſe to your ſelfe great things from vsus, but ſee you bring more dexterity of wit, or elſe without doubt you can neuer deceiue vsus with this ſhallow conceit. If you ſhould propound theſe fooliſh and childiſh things in the populous aſſemblies of our Vniuerſity men, I perſwade my ſelfe, they would not only teare to pieces theſe your childiſh ſhifts, but do as much by you too, for abuſing ſo ſhamefully their learned conceites.