Answer to Campian the Jesuit, Reasons · Answer 6
WILLIAM WHITAKERS. The anſwere to the ſixth Reaſon, which is the foundation of the Fathers.
I Cannot wel cōiecture, Campion, what theſe new foundations of the fathers may bee, which you propound vntounto vsus. As touching the fathers we hauehave giuen you your anſwere, and hauehave plainely prooued, that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cauſe vpō. And it is probable that you thought ſo your ſelf; therefore you iudged it not ſafe for you to reſt in them, vnleſſe you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might ſtrengthen the fathers themſelues. For after you had ſaid what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might ſhew you eſteemed their ſayings as diuine Oracles, becauſe you ſaw that was too ſlender, and that no man would iumpe with you in that point, you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and ſtrengthen the authoritie of the Fathers. Now the ſtrength, and as it were the bond and ſinewes of this diſputation is this aDVR. Campian doth not diſpute ſo; but ſay he do, what reproue you? for he ſpeaketh not of one Father, but of the conſent of all, vvho flouriſhed in one age, whom Saint Paul ſaith, Christ hath made Paſtors and teachers of his Church, Eph. 4.11. WHIT. pag. 408. Then, as you confeſſe, I ſwarued not much from his ſenſe. But thinke you the reaſon is of force? The auncient Fathers hauehave diligently read and ſearched the Scriptures, therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation. If i… hold in the Fathers, why not in others vvhichwhich do ſearch the Scriptures as vvell as they? vvhichwhich if you once grant, you ouerturne your owne cauſe. And though they were Paſtors of the Church, yet vvere there many other Paſtors and teachers of the Church, vvho either vvrit nothing at all, or their vvritings are periſhed; ſo that vvhat they deliuered, vve poſsibly cannot knovv: vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the conſent of all, vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the moſt flouriſhing age that euer vvas, vvhoſe bookes came to our hands. Beſides, the conſent of all in one age in no controuerſie can you bring againſt vsus, except it vvere in the moſt corrupt ages. Laſtly, the Paſtors Chriſt gaue to his Church, vvere men, ſuch as might erre, and vvho had no promiſe to be kept from error, if at any time they turned aſide from the Scriptures.The Fathers hauehave ſearched the Scriptures moſt diligently, they hauehave heaped vp ſtore of teſtimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they hauehave attributed the chiefe place to theſe: therefore wee ought to bee content with their expoſition of Scriptures; and without ſinne wee may deſire no better. This either is the ſenſe of this place, or elſe there is no ſenſe in it. And verely I profeſſe you hauehave laid theſe things downe ſo faintlie and looſelie, that I can hardlie diſcerne their ſcope: for what, I pray you, can bee ſpoken more looſely? The fathers hauehave diligently laboured to vnderſtand the Scriptures: therefore in their expoſition of them they hauehave neuer erred. But we find many ſtrange differing and diſſenting expoſitions in the Fathers; which all may well be falſe, but more then one of them cannot be true. I will giuegive you one example for a thouſand.bDVR. VVe confeſſe eueryevery Father may err…, but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error, which vvas contrary to faith. WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith, vvhether S. Paul lyed, or vvhether he ingenuouſly reproued S. Peter as he profeſſed he did. For if S. Paul did it diſſemblingly, then may it be lavvfull for vsus to diſſemble, and after confirme it vvith a lye; both vvhichwhich are contrary to ſound doctrine. But particular diſſentions you ſtand not vponupon, you deſire to ſee ſome generall, vvhen you grant eueryevery particular may erre, vvill it not follovv that all may? But ſee an example. In the Councell of Conſtantinople held vnderunder Leo the Pope, the Fathers there decreed to aboliſh Images out of Churches. But the Nicene Councell vnderunder Iren. condemned this Canon, yea and by a third Councell held in Germany, this decree vvas againe condemned. One of theſe certeinly muſt needs be deceiued. Againe, hauehave you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Biſhop of Rome, & other Biſhops of the Church, did thinke it neceſſary that the Euchariſt ſhould be giuen to Infants? vvhichwhich error continued a long time in the Church. Thinke you theſe are not points of faith? S. Paul writeth,Gala. 2.11. that at Antioch hee withſtood Peter to his face: what a kinde of oppoſition this was you would know, but cannot of your ſelfe find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppoſe Peter, one Apoſtle another, and happely you ſuſpect ſome myſtery may be hid in it: you goe to the fathers, you enquire of Hierome, August. & Hieron. in Epistol.and of Auguſtine, two very famous lights of the Latine Church. What do they tell you? Auguſtine thinke that S. Paul ſpoke ingenuouſly and as he thoughte Hierome that he ſpoke fainedly. If you approue the one, you muſt needs reiect the other; for you cannot conſent with both. Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vntounto you. I know how, ſayth Hierome, otherwiſe to account of the Apoſtles, then of other writers. Hieron. in Epist. ad Theophilis.They euer ſp…k… the tr…, theſe as man hauehave erred in ſome things. Yet they read the Scriptures, they were conuerſant in them, and ſpent themſelues wholly in meditating vponupon them. From theſe you may diſcerne how your accuſation is moſt vniuſt, and our defence moſt equall and iuſt. I deſire not to diminiſh the fathers due and worthy commendations: ſo you will confeſſe they are men, extoll them with all the prayſes you can to the very heauens, where they are now free Denizens. I could wiſh, that that which they conſtantly did, either you would do, ſearch the Scripture, or ſuffer vsus to do: then I doubt not but this fight would hauehave a good iſſue. But the Scriptures which Chriſt ratified with his owne voice, and commended to our diligent ſearch, you flie from and abhorre, as theeues doe the gallowes, you abandon them out of mens ſight, and yet you hauehave neuer done ſearching; for you compaſſe ſea and land to find out old traditions and cuſtomes long ago dead and buried, mens inuentions, decrees of Popes, the corruptions of Churches, fained and forged bookes, diriges, ſcrappes; dreames and fables, but the holy Scripture you touch not at all, leſt, as I ſuppoſe, they would make againſt you. At length for ſhame caſt away thoſe your trifles which you ſo buſily hunt after, and ſearch the Scriptures, cDVR. VVe allow all to read the Scriptures, as many as can vvell and ſafely do it. And then vve account the ſearch good and ſound, vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads, but by the authority of the auncient Fathers. WHIT pag. 415. You ſhew your good nature, that you will not reproue that which is well done. But may none elſe reade the Scriptures, but men qualified as you write? then very few muſt ſpend their labour in them. But Chriſt commanded to ſearch the Scriptures, not the opinions and expoſition of the Fathers, yea and he commaunded all whoſoeuer to ſeeke eternall life, and deſire to know Chriſt, Joh. 5.39. and not the learned only.as Chriſt hath commaunded,Origen. in Iſas. hom. 1. and the ancient fathers hauehave done. And would to God (as Origen writeth) we all would doe that which is written, Search the Scriptures) If we were commanded to ſearch the fathers of the Church, vnwritten verities, the Popes Canons, wee would willingly ſet vp our reſt there; but when wee are called from them to the diligent ſearch of the Scriptures, doe not much blame vsus, if we ſo farre, as you ſpeake, ſubſcribe to the fathers, as they agree with the Scriptures. For you cannot iuſtly blame that in vsus which you confeſſe is commendable in them.dDVR. If you thinke Chriſt commanded all, you are greatly deceiued, for hovv ſhould the rude and ignorant ſearch the Scriptures? vvho as Auguſtine vvitneſſeth muſt be ſaued, not by ſharpneſſe of vnderſtāding, but by ſimplicity of beleeuing. Moreouer Chriſt gaue vntounto the people, Pastors and Doctors, and not the bookes of the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 417. Chriſt verily ſpake to the people, not to the learned, and if he commanded all the Iewes to ſearch the Scriptures, why not all Chriſtians? but that they ought, is proued by theſe places, Act. 17.11. Coll. 3.16. Chryſostome vponupon that place, Hom. 9. Hierome vponupon the ſame. Origen. in Jſaiam hom. 2. Chryſost. in Euangel. Ioan. hom. 13. Further if the people be ignorant, you take the way to keepe them ſo. But they verily ought to hauehave knowledge; and you very learnedly make an argument from their defect. Augustine as you would hauehave it, doth not maintaine the ignorance of the people, only he requireth not of them any ſubtile knowledge: all muſt beleeue, vvhichwhich none can doe vvithout the knovvledge of the Scripture, but the ſame quicknes of vnderſtanding is not required in all. Finally Chriſt who gaue them teachers, gaue them alſo the Word; neither vvere the Paſtors to teach them any thing, but the Scriptures; vvhy then ſpeake you thus? as if theſe things ordeined one vnderunder another vvere contrary: It is vvorthy the obſeruing, that in your iudgement Chriſt gaue not the Scriptures vntounto the people; if then they reade them, they meddle vvith other mens right. For Chriſt commanded vsus aſwell as them, to ſearch the Scriptures. That therefore which is inioyned vsus both, to ſearch, it ought to be the purpoſe of both to finde out. And doe you iudge it equall,eDVR. VVho vvill beleeue that you hauehave found out, that they could not? or vvho are you that accuſe them of ignorance and error? WHIT. pag. 423. I verily acknowledge that the Fathers excelled in all kind of learning, I am ſo farre from accuſing them of ignorance. But if the Fathers hauehave often and greatly erred, which you muſt confeſſe vvhether you vvill or no: vvhy may not vve, vvho are commanded to reade the Scriptures aſvvvell as they, hold faſt the truth vve hauehave found, and reiect the errors they hauehave deliuered? vvho vvhile they liued, ingenuouſly confeſſed themſelues ignorant of many things, and that they erred not in a fevv, and vvould alſo doe no leſſe if they vvere aliue againe. that if they hauehave erred in ſearching, wee ſhould treade in their ſteps, and reiect the trueth wee hauehave found out? For whereſoeuer they find out the truth they ſought after, wee receiue it and conſent with them. And therefore, Campian, make you no doubt, we ſpeake vnfeinedly; wee will ſubſcribe to the fathers, while they conſent to the Scriptures. Doth this thing pleaſe you? ſo it ſeemeth. For you ſay, You will ſee that theſe moſt ancient writers, S. Denys, S. Cyprian, S. Athanaſius, S. Baſil, S. Gregory Nazianzene, S. Ambroſe, S. Hierome, S. Chryſoſtome, S. Auguſtine, and S. Gregory the great, ſhall come foorth well armed with the whole furniture of the bible. But what if they will not obey your commandement, neither ſerue for wages in your tents? will you compell them againſt their willes to beare armes in your campes? It is more then you can doe: they will not indure themſelues to bee thus compelled or forced. You call them man by man, but they wil not anſwere to thoſe names: yea, both theſe now named by you, and all auncient fathers doe proclaime open warre againſt you, and if you pleaſe, let vsus ſpend a little time in the triall of it.
This Deuis whoſoeuer he was cannot be on your ſide, while you maintainefDVR. VVe Catholikes neither defend nor acknowledge a priuate Maſſ…, for all Maſſes are ſaid by a publike Miniſter of the Church, in the name of the whole, and for the ſaluation of all the children of the Church is it offered. WHIT. pag. 428. It is childiſh to contend about the Word, you defend ſuch a Maſſe as the Church knew not in the daies when Denys liued; for your Maſſes are performed by one, but the forme he ſpeaketh of, is performed by many. And what if a publike Miniſter do it, yet that being done of one muſt needs be priuate, ſpecially when either there are no people preſent, or if they be preſent, yet they do nothing but looke on: and what profit can come to them by that hee doth? as if that meate the Prieſt eateth feedeth the people. Beſi…es Chriſt neuer ordained ſuch an offering, himſelfe once offered, is the ſacrifice which is profitable to the whole Church. Againe, what needeth the people once to communicant with him, or what greater fruits ſhall they hauehave by it, if they doe? Laſtly if the whole people may receiue ſaluation from that Maſſe which they neither taſt, ſee, nor yet dreame of, why will you not grant that Chriſt may be preſent to our faith, though we be farre diſioyned from his body. priuate Maſſe. For he hath deſcribed the publike communion of the whole Church, ſuch as Chriſt at the firſt inſtituted, and the ancient Church euer held. The very ſame thing doth Iuſtine the Philoſopher and martyr,Iustin. Apol. 2. who in his Apologie before Anthony the Emperour, layd open the order of diſcipline, which Chriſt held in his holy aſſembly. At that time the whole people receiuedgDVR. Jf you had but lightly read ouer Iuſtine, you would neuer hauehave been ſo impudent, for hee altogether alloweth our iudgement, and no vvhere ſpeaketh he of bread and wine giuen to the people. WHIT. pag. 430. If you had read the place, you might hauehave ſeene the contrary to your opinion and to all that you ſay, his owne words ſhall manifeſt all. They, who with vsus are called Deacons, giuegive to eueryevery one that is preſent part of the bread, wine and water, for which thankes are giuen. Can any thing be ſaid more contrary to your, and more manifeſt for our opinion. bread & wine, now with you they receiue neither.hDVR. Yet Cyprian vvrit thus Epiſt. 55. The premacie is giuen to S. Peter that it might appeare there is one Church and one chaire. WHIT. pag. 433. They are not Cyprians words, but Pamelius vvho hath corrupted Cyprian, bringing out of the margent into the text, as appeareth by auncient copies. And Gratian alſo obſerued the ſame, Cauſa. 24.9.1. loquitur. Cyprian makes all the Apoſtles equall with Peter, Cyprian. de Simplicitat. praelat. Lib. 1. Epist. 4.and directly affirmeth that they hauehave like honour and authoritie with him, and forbids all appeales to the Biſhop of Rome. Therefore he muſt needes deeſt your Pope, who preferreth himſelfe both in dignity & authority before all other Biſhops, & from all parts drawes vntounto his courts all appeales.iDVR. Cyprian in this place ſpeaketh not at all touching any appeale. WHIT. pag. 434. If you conſider the place well, you ſhall find that he inueigheth againſt certaine falſe Biſhops, who being condemned by the voices and cenſures of the Biſhops of Afrike for iuſt cauſes, vvould hauehave the cauſes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Biſhop. And in his diſcourſe. 1. He ſhevved that cauſes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed. And ſo not things done in Afrike, at Rome. 2. He affirmeth that eueryevery Biſhop hath his portion of the flocke, for which he muſt giuegive an account. Then not the Biſhop of Rome the vvhole, nor the adminiſtration of all cauſes: finally he calleth them deſperate and forlorne men, vvho thought the authority of the Biſhops of Afrike to bee leſſe then of the Biſhops of other countries, and ſo vvith reproach hee reiecteth the ſupreame authoritie of the Biſhop of Rome. Is there heere any thing leſſe then vve hauehave affirmed? Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without queſtiō.Lactan. 2. cap. 19. kDVR. Lactantius ſpeaketh not of the Images of Christians, but of the Idols of the Heathen, vvhichwhich he condemneth becauſe they are made of the earth: beſides the Ieves had their Cherubins. WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols, but Images, ſuch as your Church is full of, and ſo can there be no religion in it. Beſides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs, but made of the earth as theirs, who pretended for themſelues, as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do, that they vvorſhipped not the Images, but the God, expreſſed by them. Further for the Cherubins, they were placed in the moſt holy place, into vvhichwhich the people might not enter, not yet looke in: and ſhevv vsus particular precepts for yours, as they had for theirs, and vve hauehave done. But he that commanded theirs, forbiddeth eueryevery vvhere all others.There can be no religion whereſoeuer there is an image. If hee now liued and ſaw your Churches full of images, would he acknowledge any ſigne of true Religion? Athanaſius affirmeth,Athanaſ. conts a Gentas. That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are ſufficient to inſtruct men in all trueth: wherein with one word hee hath put to ſlight the whole armies of yourlDVR. VVill not all your Ʋniuerſity men account you a coſener, vvhen Athanaſius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanaſius, ſay aſmuch as I affirme: The Scriptures are ſufficient of themſelues, vvhy do you reptoach me? but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers: he doth, but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures, but as Commentaries vponupon them. For, ſaith he, by reading of them a man may in ſome meaſure vnderſtand the ſenſe of the Scripture. Theſe vvords make not for you, neither againſt vsus, therefore I vſed neither coſening nor diſceite. traditions. Epiphanius ſharply reprooueth certaine fooliſh women,Epipham. lib. 3. Haereſ. 79. who worſhipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worſhip, and condemneth all that ſuperſtition. duplicate page duplicate page mDVR. Epiphanius ſpeaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints, but reproueth …omen for offering vp ſacrifices to the Virgin Mary a… to a G…ld…e. WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he ſpeaketh againſt the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of ſacrificing only; his vvords are plaine. …et none of the Saints be adored. The vvord he vſeth ſignifieth to bovv and proſtrate our ſelues, and to vvorſhip one vvith Diuine honor; vvhichwhich being proper to God you impiouſly giuegive to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable SaintsLet none, ſaith he, worſhip the Virgine Mary. What would he ſay if hee now ſaw not onelyonly fooliſh women, but alſo men, and all mortall wightsnDVR No C…t…o…ike doth offer vp ſacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary. WHIT. Yet you confeſſe you do ſuch things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints: I pray you what may be the meaning of this; you offer vp ſacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints? let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of theſe women; what Scriputre …peaketh any thing of this matter? Then anſwere; your Maſſes are they offered to the Virgin Mary, or for her? whether ſoeuer, Epiphanius ſaith It is fooliſh, ſtrange, and that vvhichwhich proceeded from the ſpirit of Diuels Againe, who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and interceſſions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints? And no man is found either ſo greatly couetous, or ſo little ſuperſt…tious, but he voweth ſomewhat to ſome Saint, ſpecially to the Virgin Mary offering vp ſacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary? Baſil. in Epist. ad Cleric Neocaeſariae.Baſil is the author, that in his dayes there was aoDVR. Baſil doth not ſay it was the cuſtome of all Churches. WHIT. pag. 442. It ſeemeth you hauehave not read Baſil, reade the place and you ſhall find theſe words there. The c…ome we now keepe, is conſonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God. And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt, Afrike, Thebes, Paleſtine, and all who vſe ſinging of Pſalmes. cuſtome in all Churches, that the people repeated the Pſalmes in the holy aſſemblies. But in your Churches the people canpDVR. As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people, vnleſſe they vnderſtand the …: what a fooliſh dreame is this. WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apoſtle, then watch with you; for thus S. Paul ſpeaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6. He that ſpeaketh a ſtrange tongue, ſpeaketh not vntounto men, but vntounto God, verſ. 6. If I come vntounto you ſpeaking diuers tongues, what ſhall I profit you? Strange tongues then profit not, vnleſſe your tongues hauehave ſome more Diuine power then the Apoſtles tongue had. neither heare nor vnderſtand thoſe things which are read; but are onelyonly deluded with ridiculous geſtures and pompous ſhewes.qDVR. Gregorie neuer thought ſo, but in the ſame place he commendeth the ſolitary life as more excellent then any humane condition; neither ſpeaketh he of the common life of Chriſtians, but of that vvhichwhich is ſpent in the duties of charity. WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it eaſily out of his words. Hierome the Philoſopher, ſaith he, propoſed vntounto himſelfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vviſhed for, and more profitable, to the end he might make choice of it. And when he knew that eueryevery man was not borne for himſelfe only, but for all others, who beare the ſame nature with him, he embraced this common life rather then that ſolitary life. Doth he not now preferre this life? and from the praiſe he giueth the other, he hath ſomewhat detracted, when he ſheweth that it is only for themſelues, and ſo leſſe profitable and fruitfull? Finally what is a Chriſtian life, but that which is ſpent in the duties of charity, for all Chriſtians are bound vntounto theſe duties. Then notwithſtanding all theſe, Gregorie is ſtill with vsus. Nazianzen. de haer. Philoſoph.Nazianzene ſpeaketh no leſſe honourablie of this ciuill and ſociable life, than of the ſolitarie life of Monkes: which your cloiſter men cannot indure.Ambroſ. in Rom. cap. 1. rDVR. Ambroſe codemneth ſuffragators, not interceſſors, that is, ſuch as might informe God, what we are, not ſuch as might commēd our vvants to him. WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants, without an interceſſor, as what we are without a ſuffragator. If he do, why ſhould the one be allowed more then the other? This new diſtinction of yours, I thinke our Vniuerſity men, neither know, not wil acknowledge: or what is interceſſiō but a ſuffragation? or what do you els deſire of the Saints, but that they would ſpeake fauourablie for you to God?Ambroſe enueigheth bitterly againſt them, who thinke it neceſſary for them, when they would goe to God to vſe ſome mediatours, as men doe in courts of Princes, before they can bee brought to the King himſelfe, they muſt ſeeke the fauour of ſome of his neere attendants. Doth not this thing touch you, doth not this ſpeech draw blood of you? who neuer aske any thing of God in your prayers, but firſt you ſeeke ſome of the Saints to bee a mediatour for you, to whom you commend the care of your buſineſſe and requeſts.Hieron. Ep. ſDVR Hierome neuer vvriteth thus, but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Biſhop a Priest, and a Deacon, as was betwixt Aaron, and his ſonnes and the Leuites. Epiſt. ad Euagr. And if there be equality, it is in iuriſdiction, not in povver of order. WHIT. pag. 447. It is ſtrange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the ſame Epiſtle namely, that the Apostle doth plainly teach, that a Biſhop, and a Prieſt are all one: and this he proueth by many teſtimonies of the Scripture. And vponupon the 1. chap. to Titus, hee affirmeth plainly that a Biſhop is aboue a Prieſt by cuſtome, not by Gods ordinance. And ſo muſt that be vnderſtood you bring out of the forenamed Epiſtle. And where you acknowledge the ſame iuriſdiction of both by the law of God (which happely ſlipped from you vnawares) their vnequall power muſt needs be only by the law of man.Hierome did too much contemne your Pope, and other your glorious Biſhops, when hee writeth that a Prieſt and a Biſhop, by the law of God are all one; doe you iudge him worthy to bee a Father of the Romiſh Church, the Biſhop whereof you make not onelyonly to be farre aboue all Prieſts, but alſo all Biſhops?tDVR Leo the Pope did decree this firſt of all, and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it, leaſt any of the Manichies. vvho ſuperſtitiouſly and vvickedly abſtained from blood, might looke among the Catholikes. WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your anſwere, though your Gratian bee againſt it. But who ſeeth not what a goodly patron you are of the popiſh cauſe, who make the Manichies the firſt author of the diſmembring of the Supper. But whoſoeuer did it, Gelatius cenſureth it thus. The diuiſion of one and the ſame mystery cannot bee without great ſacriledge. And ſo by a Pope is the whole Popiſh Church condemned of ſacriledge. Gelaſius who himſelfe was a Biſhop of Rome, condemneth your drie and maimed ſupper as Sacrilegious, and ſtrictly commandeth, De conſecrat dist. 2. Comperimus. Vigil. lib. 1. cont. Eutych.that either the whole be receiued, or it be wholly omitted. Will the authoritie of the Pope moue you no whit at all? Vigilius writeth that Chriſt is departed from vsus in his humane nature.uDVR. Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrevv from the vvorld the viſible preſence of his humanity, and not the humane nature himſelfe. WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after ſhew the cleane contrary. He therfore is vvith vsus, and not vvith vsus, becauſe whom he left, and from whom he departed in his humanity, he hath not left, nor forſaken in his Diuinity. And againe, in lib. 4. contr. Eutych. vvhen he vvas in the earth, hee vvas not in heauen: and novv that he is in heauen, hee is not in the earth. And againe: hee vvas circumſcribed in a place according to his humane nature, and not conteined in a place according to his Diuinity: this is the Catholike confeſſion and faith, vvhichwhich the Apoſtles hauehave deliuered; the Martyrs hauehave confirmed, and the faithfull hauehave kept to this day. If this be the Catholike faith, then are not you Catholikes vvho iudge farre othe…vviſe of the humanity of Chriſt. The Sonne of God in his humane nature is gone from vsus: but in his diuine nature hee is alwayes with vsus, whereas you ſay Chriſt is preſent in both natures.*DVR. Chryſoſtome, becauſe hee ſavv many ſo addicted and giuen to theaters, ſtage plaies, and impious Interludes, did thus admoniſh them, lest they ſhould distast the reading of the Scriptures. WHIT pag. 458. Be it ſo: hauehave you alſo no impious places and ſpectacles and prophane exerciſes? And yet vvith you any thing is lawfull, ſaue reading of the Scriptures. But vvho ſo readeth Chryſostome, in Ioan. hom. 13. in Epist. ad Coloſſ. hom. 9. de Lazaro hom. 3. ſhall find that he required this ſimplie, neceſſarily, and generally of all men. Chryſoſtome exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles,Chryſost ad Coloſſ. hom. 9. & in Ioan. hom. 8. reade the Scriptures, and that at home in their houſes the husband with the wife, the father with his children, would conferre among themſelues of the Scriptures. But this neither can, nor lawfully may be done in your Church, yea, it is a certaine proofe of an heretique, for any to hauehave the Bible in his houſe. What ſhall I ſay of Augustine, who in the greateſt and moſt principall controuerſies, as of grace, predeſtination, free will, iuſtification, the Scripture, the Law, the Goſpel, ſinne, good workes, Sacraments, and Church is wholly and fully ours. I ſhould neuer make an end if I ſhould purſue particulars, and collect but a little of eueryevery thing.Gregor. lib. 4. Epist. 30. & 34. Gregory the great, though he was a Biſhop of Rome, yet will he take our part againſt you: For tell mee, doth hee not touch your Pope to the quicke, when peremptorily he affirmed, that whoſoeuer ſhould call himſelfe thexDVR. Gregory condemned Iohn, becauſe he ſought for ſuch an authority ouer all Biſhops, as the Emperour had ouer the Kings, vvho are ſubiect vntounto them. WHIT. pag. 460. Whether Iohn of Conſtantinople ſought ſuch a povver or no; it is not certaine: but no man can be ignorant, how the Pope affecteth it: And long ago hath not only got authority ouer the Biſhops, but hath ſubdued the Emperour himſelfe: which Iohn of Conſtantin…ple neuer once aſſayed to do. Gregory telleth vsus what he meaneth by vniuerſall Biſhop, he vvho endeuoureth to bring into ſubiection to himſelfe all the members of Christ by the title of vniuerſall. Whereby he toucheth home your Pope, who ſubiecteth all the members of Chriſt to himſelf as to their head: neither did euer any Emperour rule more tyrannouſly ouer his Kings and vaſſals, then the Pope hath ouer the Biſhops of all Churches. vniuerſall Biſhop, vndoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichriſt? Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Biſhops of Conſtantinople and Rome. Iohn of Conſtantinople being a proud man, and very inſolent, and ambitious, firſt challenged this vntounto himſelfe: Gregory while hee liued earneſtly and conſtantly withſtood him. And within a while after this title was taken from the Biſhop of Conſtantinople, and giuen to the Biſhop of Rome. Leaue trifling, Campian, and euen tell me plainely,yDVR. VVho ſeeth not in vvhat ſenſe th…ſe Biſhops of Rome vvould not this name vntounto themſelues, though they alwaies profeſſed them Biſhops of the vniuerſall and Catholike Church, and the Vicars of Christ. WHIT pag. 463. It ſeemeth you did not meane to be vnderſtood of any who ſpeake on this manner: but tell vsus, is the Pope vniuerſall Biſhop or no? If he be, how commeth the change, that, that which was Antichriſtian in the Patriarke of Conſtantinople by the iudgement of Pelagius & Gregorie, both Biſhops of Rome, ſhould be Catholike and holy in the Pope? For that which ſo inſolently Iohn of Conſtantinople tooke vntounto himſelfe, and enioyed for a while, not long after Boniface the third earneſtly tooke vntounto himſelfe, and tranſlated to his ſucceſſors, as ſaith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. & Sabellicus Ennead. 8. lib. 6. Vispergenſis in Phoca. They then hauehave not only the thing, but the name, and ſo are Antichriſtian. if that name in the Biſhop of Conſtantinople was a ſigne of the approching of Antichriſt, why may wee not iudge it in the Biſhop of Rome, a notable enſigne of the ſame Antichriſt? now I hauehave giuen you a taſte by which you may iudge other things: you muſt either get you other fathers, or for all theſe you muſt needes yeeld as ouercome. Doe wee at length ſpeake without riddles? what is it you els deſire of vsus? wherefore Campian, get you into this campe, and ſhew forth all your valour: you ſhall verily finde you hauehave to deale, not with naked and vnarmed beggars, but with well appointed and well harneſſed aduerſaries.