Answer to Campian the Jesuit, Reasons · Reason 7
WILLIAM WHITAKERS. The anſwere to the ſeauenth Reaſon, which is the Historie.
NOw you call vsus to Hiſtorie, the witnes of times and reporter of Antiquity: and all that hauehave taken paines in publiſhing the Eccleſiaſticall Hiſtorie, their names you ſet downe, and like dumbe ſhowes, you carry them in great pompe: as though, Campian, the particular naming of all that hauehave publiſhed any Hiſtorie were ſufficient for the remembrance, and ſearching out the monuments of Antiquitie. What inſolent new kind of Logicke is this, to recken vp the Hiſtorians of the whole world, and of particular countries, and then conclude they are your owne? HaueHave you of late from aboue procured this priuiledge, that whatſoeuer you lay your hands vponupon, ſhall by and by become yours? we hauehave long ſince peruſed the auncient Chronicles, wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is ſet downe, and we find not that they fauour you more then vsus. If in them be ſome things againſt vsus, many moe, and more waightie teſtimonies they hauehave againſt you, and ſuch as giuegive you a deadlie wound; elſe would wee neuer hauehave collected the Hiſtories of the auncient Church ſo accuratelie, and diligentlie, penning them exactlie, and diſtinguiſhing the ſeuerall ages and times; neither would wee hauehave publiſhed them in the world, if they were ſo contrarie vntounto vsus, as you ſurmiſe: for who hauehave taken more paines to finde out, or more faithfullie reſtored the Eccleſiaſticall Hiſtories, then our men, without whoſe labours many monuments of Antiquitie had been buried in darlineſſe? We therefore will neuer denie this triall of Antiquitie, and ſeeing you appeale to auncient Hiſtories, wee condiſcend; yet with this caution, that we be not tied to thoſe things which were apparantly blemiſhes in the auncient Church. Eſpecially ſeeing that writers of Hiſtories intending to make a natration of things done, doe not ſo much teach vsus what ought to bee done, but hauehave an eye to that which was then performed, and by that meanes ſet downe many things worthie of reprehenſion, rather than imitation: and for the moſt part it happens, that Hiſtoriographers are poſſeſſed with the errors of the times wherein they writ; and euer the later writer the more corrupt. But here you exclaime that wee ſeeke euaſions, and very peruerſly you ſlaunder vsus, that becauſe wee doe not allowe all, wee refuſe all. They that reforme what is amiſſe, doe not blame the reſt that is not faultie. Striue while you liſt (Campian) and crie out of mazes and labyrinths, at length will you, nill you, by the cares muſt wee bring you to the iudgement of the Scriptures.
And herein, Campian, you very muchaDVR. And vvhy may not Campian trumph, for what impudencie is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable hereſies; and yet you cannot tell, vvhen one of them euer began, in vvhat Popes time, by vvhat meanes, hovv it increaſed in the Church? WHIT. pag. 477. A good cauſe would be defended by reaſons, not raylings. But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt, becauſe wee cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt? but being ſo manifeſt as it is, what need we ſearch the Hiſtories to ſhew the beginning? what I pray? if you ſee a man ſicke of the peſtilence, a citie corrupt with riote and wickedneſſe, a houſe ruinous and readie to fall, a ſhippe ſincking; will you deny all theſe, vnleſſe one can tell you the time when he began to be ſicke, the meanes how the city grew corrupt, who vvas ovvnet and in vvhat yeare the houſe grevv ruinous, and in vvhat da…e the ſhippe began firſt to leake? And vvhat is the force of your reaſon and demaund other then this? But, doe not your owne Hiſtories tell vvhen and by vvhom innouations and corruptions entred? ſee a fevv of them. Hee that firſt vſurped authoritie ouer other Churches vvas Pope Victor, after him Zozimus, Boniface, Celestiue, and the… ſucceſſura. Pope Syricius firſt fo…bad Prieſts marriages. The Manichies firſt denied the Cup to the people. The Nicene Councell firſt ordained vvorſhipping of Images. Pope Nicolas the ſecond, firſt taught: the bodie of Chriſt muſt carnally be handled, broken and eaten. Pope Jnnocent the third, firſt eſtabliſhed the doctrine of Tranſubſtantiation. Boniface the third, that the Pope vvas the head of all Churches. Gregorie the great taught Purgatorie firſt for a certeine truth. The Florentine Councell, that the Pope was aboue Councels. Jnnocent the third, brought in auricular confeſſion. If theſe vvere not ſufficient I could produce ſire hundred more. triumph, when you demaund at what time, vnderunder what Biſhop, by what way, and proceeding, was a new religion ſpread ouer the Citie of Rome, and the whole world: and doe not doubt, but that if any change and declining had been, many writers would hauehave made mention of it, or diuers, or one at the leaſt. It is hard for vsus to anſwere at what time, neither is it neceſſarie to ſet downe the very inſtant of time. All things were not at once ouerturned in the Church of Rome, ſinne and wickednes came to his height by degrees, and by leiſure to ripenes; the haires of our head are not all gray of a ſuddaine, neither doth any thing ſuddainely come to his maturitie, and the growth of eueryevery thing appeareth long after. This is manifeſt in ſuch things, as hauing ſmall beginning goe on forward vntounto a greater quantitie, vntill they come to perfection; you cannot deny, but there was a great alteration of Religion, in the Church of bDVR. It is not hard to knovv the hereſies of the Ievves, for Philaſtrius, Epiphanius, Ioſephus, hauehave vvritten of them. WHIT pag. 484. It is as eaſie to know the hereſies of Chriſtians, being more in the Chriſtian Church then euer vvere in the Church of Ieruſalem, and of theſe alſo hauehave many bookes been vvritten.Ieruſalem, what then? was the change all at once? ſhew vsus then how thoſe nouelties entred into the Church, what time, what way, who was Biſhop, and by what proceedings it increaſed. You Romaniſ… condemne the Greeke Church, and yet it is nothing ſo corrupt as yours.cDVR. You require an eaſie thing; for the authors of the hereſies of the Greeke Church, vve can eaſily number out of their ſtories, Samoſatenus, Eutyches, Sergius, Arrius, Neſtorius, Macedonius, and ſuch like. WHIT. pag. 486. It is a vvonder that you vvill obiect theſe hereſies vntounto the Greeke Church: vvhen you cannot bee ignorant but that moe and more horrible hereſies ſprung vp in the Romiſh Church, and almoſt in the middeſt of Rome: For Valentinus, Marcion, Cerdon, Florentius, Blaſius, Tatianus, Nouatus, Pelagius, Julianus, Celeſtinus, and other ſuch did broach moſt peſtiferous hereſies in Rome. If you anſvvere the Latin Church condemned theſe; I can anſvvere ſo for the Greeke Church. And if you thinke you hauehave obiected vvell in numbring certeine hereſies of the Greeke Church, you may thinke I hauehave anſvvered aſvvell in reckoning the hereſies of the Latin Church. Declare now vntounto me thoſe circumſtances of time in the declining of this Church, which you demaund for your owne. Poynt out the time, the Biſhop, and the growth of their Apoſtaſie. As the alteration of theſe Churches was then eaſie to bee diſcerned when it firſt beganne, though now it be very hard to finde out thoſe circumſtances: ſo we ſee plainely a great change in the Church of Rome, yet can we not certainely pronounce the ſeuerall times of their ſeuerall declining. Many are manifeſt, which were too long to rehearſe, and thoſe are diſtinguiſhed according to their times and ſeaſons. The caſe was with the Church of Rome, as we ſee it is in a great building: for as a houſe which is ſtrongly built at the firſt, continueth ſo of it ſelfe a long time after ſound and whole; but if for a time it be left and neglected, it beginneth in ſome place to decay, and to bee full of chinkes, which in time waxe big by degrees, till they threaten ruine to the poſts and roofes themſelues, and at length by this meanes, the whole building is ruinated and falleth downe: ſo the Romane Church in proceſſe of time declined from her auncient eſtate, and by the infection of error and ſuperſtition daily preuailing, at length ſhee loſt the very ſpirit and life of the Church. Euſebius reporteth, that one Polycrates Biſhop of Epheſus, had written of the Church, that ſhe was, whileſt the Apoſtles liued, a chaſte and vndefiled Virgin. For then they that would hauehave altered the holy paterne of ſound doctrine, did it faintly and fearefully, not daring to creepe out of their holes.dDVR. O horrible fact! ó intolerable vvickednes! vvith vvhat face can you thus ſpeak, if you remember hovv Chriſt promiſed his ſpouſe perpetuall preſeruation? Hoſe. 2.20. Iſa, 59.21. Pſal. 131.17. and ſuch like WHIT pag. 4…8. If your arguments vvere as great as your outeries, vvho could deale vvith you? That the Church may be corrupted, ſee theſe places Matth. 13.25. 1. Cor. 5.6. 2. Cor. 11.3. Iſay. 1.21. Gal. 1.6. and 2.1. Further vvhat hauehave I elſe ſpoken that Euſebius lib. 3. cap. 32. and Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 7. & 10. hauehave not before time vvritten? And vvhen I vvrit theſe things, I remembred vvell thoſe promiſes and many other of that kind. But I knovv that they belong to the Church of the elect, and hinder not, but that particular Churches may bee corrupted by error and falſe doctrine. DVR. Euſebius doth not anouch theſe from Polycrates, but from Hegeſippus, vvho called the Church a Virgin, becauſe heretikes as yet had not openly oppoſed her, and corrupted the ſeates of the Apostles: and did not ſay that ſhee vvas corrupted after them. WHIT. pag. 490. The matter is not great vvhichwhich of them ſpake the vvords, for vvhoſoeuer ſhall vvergh the vvords, ſhall ſee that the ſenſe of them is as I hauehave ſaid. And if the Church vvas euer to remaine a chaſt and pure Virgin, hovv fooliſh ſhould that Hegeſippus be in affirming that hitherto ſhe remained a Virgin, or vvhat may his meaning bee elſe then that the Apoſtles being dead, ſhe began to be corrupted, vvhichwhich the vvords follovving proue, vvhen that age vvas ouerpaſſed; then ſhe began to be corrupted vvith impious error? Yea and vvhen you ſay that as yet heretikes had not aſſaulted her, nor inuaded the tents of the Apoſtles, either you ſay nothing, or you graunt that after the Apoſtles time, they did aſſault her, and preuaile againſt her. But after that the Apoſtles departed vntounto the heauenly manſions, and none of that age left, that had been hearers of Chriſt himſelfe, neither any of the Apoſtles liuing, then began abhominable error to gather ſtrength, and openly in the Churches to aduaunce it ſelfe. What more pregnant teſtimonie of antiquitie and hiſtorie can you deſire? Whileſt the Apoſtles liued the Church was a Virgin, aſſoone as they were dead, ſhe became corrupted, and the miſchiefe no doubt in time increaſed and ſpread it ſelfe abroade. But I woonder that thiseDVR. Nay rather if hee were liuing hee would wonder at your fo…lie, who are either ſo ignorant or ſo forgetfull, that you obſerue not, hovv Polycrates ſent letters to Pope Victor touching the new cōtrouerſie about the cele bration of the Paſſeouer. WHIT. pag. 492. It ſeemeth in policie you paſſe ouer this place in ſilence, without anſwere; and tel vsus a tale of another different thing, which affordeth vsus a ſtrong argument againſt the tyranny of the Pope: for if the moſt learned and holy Biſhops of the Greeke Churches, diſſented greatly from the Pope in the celebration of Eaſter, and would not follow the cuſtome of the Pope and Romiſh Church, though the Pope ſought it by all meanes, who can doubt, but that this ſupreame power of the Pope ouer all Churches vnderunder Chriſt as his Vicar, was vnknowne and vnheard of among them? Polycrates, was either ſo ignorant or forgetfull that hee conſidered not this, that the Pope of Rome was left vntounto the Church, in the Apoſtles roomes, to defend this Virgin, and preſerue her chaſtitie. Why calleth hee the Church a Virgin? Becauſe the Apoſtles were liuing, by whom her audacious aduerſaries were alwaies diſcouraged and diſcomforted. But either in this reſpect the Church now wanteth a Pope, or elſe ſhee needes him not at all. But Polycrates, although there were none left to preſerue the puritie of this Virgin, bewaileth her want as you ſee, which ſurely had been vnaduifedly done, if his opinion had been, that this charge belonged to the Biſhop of Rome. The Church then from the Apoſtles time began to decline, and inclined to the apoſtaſie, which the Apoſtle did foretell ſhould be, and we ſee now fulfilled. Then thoſe Wolues of whom the Apoſtle did forewarne,Act. …0.19. came into the Church and ceaſed not to deſtroy the flocke. Then thoſe Antichriſts, whereof Iohn affirmeth ſome were in his time,1. Ioh. ….18. began to vndertake the worke, which after was perfected and accompliſhed: I might heere ſhew you many euident tokens of your Churches Apoſtaſie, out of theſe your owne Chronicles: they are no ſecrets, but ſuch as any man that will reade and obſerue, may eaſilie diſcerne.
And ſince you call vsus vntounto Hiſtories,fDVR. Two things here are, of which you would perſvvade the Reader, one that the Fathers of the Councell allovved not that vvhichwhich the Pope affected by his Legates: another that the Legates did malitiouſly produce a forged Canon. What vvould you doe if you could find any thing of vvaight in any ſtorie againſt vsus? WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would inſtruct the Reader, and what can any ſtorie afford vsus more ſolide and perſpicuous, for whether you reſpect the a… bition and fraud not vſed in former times by the Biſhops of Rome, or the authority of the Councell, or that famous ſentence giuen againſt the Biſhops of Rome, there is no man ſo ignorant and vnexperienced, but he will confeſſe that they enacted and decreed a great matter, and of no ſmale importance. I will put you in mind of one thing related in an auncient ſtorie, conſider it well whether it touch your Pope, or no, and then anſwere fully concerning the whole matter. A Councell was aſſembled in Africke, of 217.Concil. Carthag. 6. cap. 3.1.7.9. Biſhops; whereof Augustine himſelfe was one, the glorie and ſtarre of Africke: I will ſet downe the ſtory briefly. Zozimus Biſhop of Rome ſent thither his Legates, which ſhould perſwade the Fathers of Africke, that appeales might be made to the Biſhop of Rome from all other Biſhops. The Legates make relation hereof vntounto the Fathers, and withall produce a Canon of the Councell of Nice, wherein the priuiledge was recorded: the Fathers wonder at this new decree, and anſwere the Legates that they neuer ſaw any ſuch Canon in any copie Greeke or Latin, and that, as they thought, the true and perfect copie of that Councell remained with them, which Cecilianus Biſhop of Carthage, which was himſelfe preſent at that Councell, had brought into Africke; notwithſtāding they determine to ſend to Conſtantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch, ſuch as might receiue the true and naturall copies, from the Biſhops of thoſe cities. The Popes Legates would faine hauehave ſtayed them from ſending, but could not. Cyrill Biſhop of Alexandria, and Atticus of Conſtantinople deliuer vntounto the meſſengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Africk, wherin they do auouch that thoſe copies were moſt true and ſincere.Concil. Af…c. Can. 105. Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Councell of Nice no ſuch thing can be found: ſo they writ to Celestine then Pope, and command him to ſurceaſe from making any ſuch claime euer after and not to ſend abroad his Collectors, leſt thereby they may ſeeme to bring the preſumptuous ſmokie pride of the world into the Church of Chriſt. The Pope for the time yeelded not voluntarily, but perforce: for an hundred yeeres after Boniface the ſecond in an Epiſtle vntounto Eulalius inueigheth bitterly againſt Aurelius Biſhop of Carthage, which was now Preſident of the African Councell, and affirmeth that hee and his fellowes, whereof Augustine was the chiefe, were all moued by the deuill to withſtand the Church of Rome; thus Pope Boniface cenſureth as ſchiſmatikes, Aurelius of Carthage, & other the African Biſhops, yea and Auguſtine himſelfe among the reſt, becauſe they reſiſted the Biſhop of Rome in that matter: as for Eulalius then Biſhop of Carthage, he giueth him great thankes becauſe he made friendſhip with the Church of Rome, that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Biſhop of Rome ouer the Church of Africke. Theſe things I hauehave related out of their trueſt records, and of this kind I could rehearſe many more, ſo little cauſe hauehave you to promiſe your ſelfe much helpe out of Hiſtorie.
Hence may bee perceiued what the purpoſe and endeuour of the Biſhops of Rome hauehave bin theſe many yeares, viz. to make themſelues Lords of all Churches, which alſo at length they obtained. But becauſe you aske the queſtion and deſire anſwere, when Rome loſt her faith ſo much commended, and what that, which once was; ceaſed to be? I may truly affirme that though in many things ſhe had made ſhipwracke of faith before, yet thē did it begin to be the ſeate of Antichriſt, when Phocas the murderer granted vntounto Boniface the third, that the Church of Rome ſhould be head of all Churches, and the Biſhop of Rome ſhould be called Vniuerſall Biſhop. I will not too curiouſly ſearch into the moments of times, a miſchiefe creepeth priuily, for a time vneſpied of men. But the common opinion which men conceiued of thoſe times was, that Gregory the great was the laſt good, and the firſt ill Biſhop of Rome. He was no better then he ſhould be, and all that ſucceeded him were ſtarke nought, eueryevery one ſtriuing to goe beyond his predeceſſor in all lewdnes: ſo that, now a ſincke of all wickednes hath violently burſt into the Church, and hath poſſeſſed all the parts therof. You force me, Campian, to open the ſores of your Church, which I had rather not touch, but you are ſo vnreaſonable, yt you neither ſpare vsus nor your ſelues. Barnard, who was the only religious man, your Church had for many yeares, how often, and how grieuouſly, doth he bewaile, the moſt deſperat eſtace of your Church?gDVR. Bernard ſpeaketh not of the doctrine of the Church, but of the manners of the vvicked. and in the Church the euill men were euer mixed among the good. WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder vvhat was in your mind, when you confeſſe that the manners of your predeceſſors were ſuch, as he deſcribeth both heere, and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongſt theſe you being their Pastor, vvalke decked vvith much pretious apparell. If I durst ſpeaze it; theſe are rather pa…ors for diuels then for Christs ſheepe, Your Court vſually receiueth good men, but maketh ſevv good. There the vvicked are not made better, but the good farre worſe. A number of ſuch places I could alledge out of him, neither bewail…th l…ethe mixture of the bad, as you ſay, but the periſhing of the good, and the ru…ne of the Church. A ſhamefull contagion ſprea…h ouer the body of the whole Church: Bernard. in Cant. Ser. 33 De conuer. Pauli.the ſeruants of Christ ſerue Antichrist. From the ſole of the foote to the crowne of the head nothing is ſound. With theſe and the like ſpeeches vſed Bernard to bewaile and complaine of the intolerable wickednes of your Church, which he would neuer hauehave done without ſufficient reaſon, mouing thereunto.Aeneas Syluius ad Casparem Schlik. Aeneas Syluius, afterwards Pope, writeth that charity was waxed cold, and faith vtterly gone, and what manner of Church ſhall we iudge this to hauehave been, when ſhee had loſt both faith and charity? But it may be you will ſay that he wrote this of malice vntounto the Church, and that after hee changing his opinion, when of Aeneas he was made Pius, for that was euer his vſuall ſpeech. Cast away Aeneas & take Pius. What ſhal I further recite Petrarch, Mantuan, and other Poets both learned and famous, which feared not with Satiricall verſes to inueigh againſt the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie? all things were then ſo out of order, that all ſinnes might without controul…ent both be practiſed and openly blamed. I need not to ſeeke farre, remember what Cornelius Biſhop of Bicontine, not many yeares agoe, at the Councell of Trent ſpake openly in the preſence and audience of the whole Church: whoſe witnes muſt needs be ſtrong and effectuall againſt you, though of it ſelfe it bee little worth. Thus he ſaith,Cornel. Bicontin. in concil. Crident. Would to God they had not all with one conſent turned from religion to ſuperſtition, from faith to infidelity, from Christ to Antichrist, from God to Epicuriſme. Behold the Marks of your Church, ſu…ſtition, infidelity, Antichriſt, Epicure, for all this you are not aſhamed to affirme that no Hiſtorie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or teſtified any ſuch matter. But Campian, the more you defend the integrity of your Church, the more you cauſe vsus to manifeſt the corruptions of it.
Our aduerſaries, ſay you, doe grant that the Romane Church was once a holy Church. This we confeſle, and that then it was holy when Paul publiſhed thoſe her worthie praiſe, which you remember; and yet thoſe praiſes by you mentioned, doe not belong to that Church alone, but were giuen alſo to other Churches.Rom. 1.…. For what if the faith of the Romanes were publiſhed in the whole world? this was no proper or peculiar priuiledge of that Church. Hath not the Apoſtle written aſmuch of the Church of Theſſalonica,1. Theſſ. 1.8. Your faith to wards God is ſpread in all places? What if hee made mention of the Romanes without ceaſing? Rom. 1.9.ſo did he alſo inceſſantly remember the Theſſalonians. 1. Theſſ. 1.3.What though he doubted not but hee ſhould come vntounto the Romanes in abundance of the bleſſing of Chriſt? Rom. 15.29.thinke you his comming into other Churches was leſſe fruitfull?Rom. 16.19. What if all Churches ſaluted the Romanes, and their obedience was eueryevery where ſpoken of? know you not that all the Saints vſed to ſalute one another? or ſuppoſe you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apoſtles as this? But we grant you, that at this time it was holy: what would you more?Act. 28. Then alſo when Paul preached the Goſpell there in his fauourable reſtraint. This alſo wee grant: what more?1. Pet. 5.13. And then alſo when Peter gathered and gouerned the Church there, calling it Babylon. We deny not this. And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon, for I doubt not, but it is the ſame of whichhDVR. Saint Iohn ſpeaketh of Rome vvhen it yet abhorred the ſaith of Christ, a…d perſecuted Chriſtians. WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. J…n deſcribed Rome as it was reſtored and reedified by Antichriſt, for when …e w…teth Apoc. 18.…. who ſeeth not that this cannot be vnderſtood of auncient Rome, but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Diuels, and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foule ſpirits. Iohn writes ſo much in the Reuelation, the mother of whoredomes, and abominations of the earth; yet I cannot be ſo eaſily perſwaded thatiDVR. Yet Oecumenius, Hierome, Euſebius. Tertullian, to ſay nothing of others, do graunt it And to make question of Peters being at Rome, is as if you ſhould doubt, whether euer Romulus, Iulius Caeſer, or Pompeie was there. For if Cyprian, Euſebius, Do…o…heus, Epiphanius, Optatus, Hicrom, and many others may not be beleeued, vvhat ſhall euer be certeine in any History? WHIT pag. 508. All theſe teſtimonies proue nothing that I hauehave either doubted of or denied; for I deſire authority of Scriptures, not the opinions of men; I deſire eueryevery man who deſireth ſaluation to weigh this one thing well. That whereas the whole gouernment & Hierarchy of the Papacie hangeth on this ſoundation, that S. Peter was Biſhop of Rome, yet they hauehave no word in the Scriptures to ſhew that he euer was ſo: and ſo the whole Papacie is hanged vponupon the coniectures of men, as vponupon a rotten threed; for what if many Hiſtories ſay he was there, if the Scripture ſay no ſuch thing, what aſſurance can be of it for matter of faith, the mind muſt needs bee ſuſpicious and doubtfull; it is true that the receiued opinion is that hee was there. But who knoweth not that, that which one deliuereth at the firſt, may increaſe by fame, and be by many reſerued to poſterity. At the firſt an auncient writer mentioned S. Peters appoſing of Symon Magus and ſaith it was at Rome, and him hauehave many followed ſince: and hence from the common rumors and ſuſpi…ions of men ſprung vp the Popes chair…. And who ſhall then giuegive aſſurance of faith in this thing, when there is no place of Scripture for it, nay when many places are againſt it. Theſe ſpecially Galat. 2.7.9. Now if S. Peter ſhould be Biſhop of Rome & for ſo many yeares, it vvas againſt both his order of life and his faith. Act. 28.22.23. Novv they could not be ſo ignorant, if that S. Peter for ſo many yeares before had gouerned that Church: S. Paul abode in Rome tvvo yeares and thence writ many Ep…ſtles, and in them ſpake of many of the brethren, but neuer once named S. Peter; ſupole you hee vvould bee tvvo yeares from his Church? Galat. 2.1.2. But he ought rather to hauehave been at Rome, as a good Biſhop ought to be vvith his flocke, vnleſſe you can proue he might ſubſtitute a Vicar. Beſides the Hiſtories themſelues are in ſuch …ariety of opinions, that you can hardly tell vvhom to follovv: ſome ſay he came …o Rome in the firſt yeare of Claud…us the Emperour, ſome in the ſecond, ſome in the fou…, and ſome in the tenth yeare: and it may be that none of theſe is true, ſure it is all cannot be true. Peter meanes Rome in this place; here Campian you are alwaies at a nonplus, & could yet neuer pro…ue that Peter was at Rome. But you take this for granted, and as alreadie prooued; which if any man once deny, then like the Mathematicians, you hauehave done, and can goe no further. But why may I not reaſonably think, that Peter meaneth that Babylon, which once was the chiefe Citie of the Aſſi…ians, in which Citie certeinly were many Iewes,Galat. 2.9. vntounto whom Peter was appointed Apoſtle peculiarly. If I ſhould ſet downe that which I could alleage in this cauſe, I feare I ſhould trie your patience too much. In the meane time I allow well your confeſſion that Rome is Babylon, and hereafter, at your leiſure, you may declare vponupon what occaſion the name of it was altered. You may not now bee angrie with vsus, if following Peters example, from hencefoorth wee alſo call Rome Babylon.
Now I hope at length you will reſt and be ſatiſfied. Nay, but you proceed ſtill vntounto the ages that ſucceeded: Then when Clemens gouerned the Church: then alſo, when the Heathen Emperours maſſacred the Biſhops of Rome: Euen then I confeſſe, Rome was an excellent Church of Chriſt. Will this content you? Nay further you ſay; Then alſo when Damaſus, Siricius, Anastaſius, Innocentius executed the Apostolike function. This is not to diſcend by degrees, but to leape; for you haſten too faſt from the forenamed to theſe. But how will you perſwade vsus to yeeld you thus much; Becauſe Caluin (as you ſay) frankly confeſſeth, I…ſt. lib. 4. cap. 2. ſ…ct. 3 & Epiſt. ad Sad…l.that as yet they had not digreſſed from the doctrine of the Goſpell: Doe not you, Campian, catch hold of that which no man will giuegive you, nor be too confident of others liberalitie? Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted: therefore you muſt redeliuer it. Caluin in that place anſwereth to your ouerworne argument of ſucceſſion, and ſhe weth that the purpoſe of the Fathers, when they alleaged the ſucceſſion of Biſhops, was not to proue thoſe to be true Churches, where Biſhops ſucceeded one another: but this firſt they aſſumed as moſt certaine, that from the beginning of the Church vntounto the ages, whereof they ſpeake, there was no alteration in religion; and thus they oppoſed to the new broched errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apoſtles was ſtill preſerued in the Church. Caluin then ſaith not that they hadkDVR. Do you acknowledge it to bee the Church of Chriſt, vvhichwhich ſwarueth and ſtrayeth from the Apoſtles doctrine▪ vvhat can be ſp…ken more abſurdly. WHIT. pag. 513. You that obiect abſurditie to others are moſt abſurde your ſelfe, for vv… not the Church of the lewes euen then when it abounded with many errors, the Church of God. The Corinthians and Galathians, when they had many waies declined from the doctrine of the Goſpell, yet S. Paul ſaluted them … Churches, 1 Cor. 1.2. Gal. 1.2. which he would not hauehave done, if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors. altered nothing in any point of faith, but that the Fathers vſed this argument of ſucceſſion onelyonly in thoſe caſes, wherein it might appeare they had innouated and altered nothing. Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of theſe Biſhops was the true Church of Chriſt; but that they in nothing digreſſed from the doctrine of the Goſpell, that Caluin neuer confeſſed, and wee conſtantly denie. To ſay nothing of the reſt. ThuslDVR. This error is common to you and many of your fello…es: for Syricius vvas not the firſt, vve ha…e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage, vvhichwhich numbreth this among the Apoſtolike tr…ditions, Carthag. 1. Can. 2. ſo hath Clemen… it in his Epiſtle to S. Iames the Lords brother. Amongeſt the Grecians the cuſtome of the Prieſts wa… not to keepe their wiues as wiues which they bad before their Prieſt-bood, Epiphan. h…rel. 59. And Hierome against Vi…ilantius vigeth this auncient cuſtome of the Church. WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the firſt maker of this impious law. The which many Prieſts before him of their owne acccrd embraced ſingle life, yet none was compelled by law againſt his will: and as for the Councell of Carthage, it was held in the time of this Syricius. And ſo not before him, for your Cleme…s you knovv hee is of no vvorth, but a meere counterfeite. That you report of the Grecians is incredible, vvhen as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindred this lavv, neither vvould the Grecians euer endure this ſnare: Hierome indeed produceth an old cuſtome, but no Apoſtolike, nor yet perpetuall cuſtome. Syricius ſwarued from the doctrine of the Goſpell, when he intangled the Miniſters of the word with the ſnares of inforced continencie: and this doubtleſſe was no ſmall digreſſion, but a plaine departing frō themDVR. VVhat Catholike euer ſaid that marriage was euill? S. Paul teacheth vsus to take beedo of the Manichies and Gnoſtikes, and other heretikes of that ſort. WHIT. pag. 516. To your queſtion my anſvvere is eaſie: your Syricius and Innocent vvhen they feared Miniſters from marriage, vſed thoſe reaſons vvhichwhich either condemned marriages ſimplie, or els they conclude nothing. For vvhen they thus reaſon, Prieſts may not marrie, becauſe they muſt be the temple and the veſſell of the Lord, and the Chappell of the holy Ghoſt, therefore they ought not to giuegive themſelues to chambering and vncleannes, becauſe they ought to be holy: becauſe they ſhall bee polluted vvith carnall concupiſcence, and to the vncleane all things are vncleane: becauſe they vvho are in the fleſh cannot pleaſe God. What I pray you is this elſe but to affirme that marriages are euill, impure, and vvicked? Make theſe then no Catholikes, or elſe your queſtion is anſvvered. To tye S. Paul to thoſe auncient heretikes only, is abſurde, as if he deliuered not a perpetuall doctrine for all times: yea and he hath taxed not thoſe only vvho condemne marriage, but vvho forbid them, vvhichwhich cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth. Apoſtolike doctrine.1. Tim. 4.3. Heb. 13.4. Now at length you make a ſtay, and purſue the hiſtories of the Church no further: only you demaund, when Rome ceaſed to be as formerly it had bin; vntounto which queſtion we hauehave ſufficiently anſwered. If you make doubt whether it now bee the ſame it was, you may alſo if you liſt doubt whether the ſunne ſhine at noone. For this is as cleere and without queſtion, as that the preſent citie of Rome, is become vnlike the auncient flouriſhing Romans common wealth. And as hee could not find Samnius in Samnius, and the other of whom the Epigram ſpeaketh wittily, who found nought of Rome in the middeſt of Rome. So if you would now in the preſentnDVR. VVhat impudencie is this? there vvas neuer hereſie that aſſaulted this Church, of vvhichwhich it caried not the victorie. As ouer the Donatiſts, Iouinian, Pelagius the Britaine and others. WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproches, and ſtand to that I hauehave ſaide. The Church of Rome vvhichwhich once flouriſhed is novv ſo oppreſſed vvith Antichriſt, that beſides the outvvard face, image, countenance of a Church, & a vaine pompe, there is nothing elſe left in it. There is no vvord but it is corrupted vvith peſtiferous leaued, no Sacrament but polluted vvith ſacriledge and corruption, no diſcipline but Antichriſtian: I paſſe not for your Popes chaire; your Colledge of Cardinals, the glorie of your Biſhops, your Prieſts, Monkes, Temples, riches, nothing moue me; I ſearch for a liuing Church, not bare walles, for a man, not a picture, for a body, not a ſhadow: as for your criumphes you boaſt of, they are no more proper to the true Church, then the triumphes of old Rome ouer Pyrrhus, Anniball, Perſes, Antiochus, are to be eſteemed the triumphes of Rome novv being. Finally as for Pelagius, he triumphed ouer the whole Popiſh kingdome. For did he not teach that grace was inbred in nature? and your Popiſh crevv defendeth the ſame; who ſeeth not then Pelagius ſitting in your triumphant chariot? Romiſh Church, ſeek for the auncient Church of Rome, you ſhall neuer find it, for ſhee hath now loſt, not the life only, but the very colour and appearance of the true Church.
Seeing therefore all other things faile you, and alſo Hiſtories themſelues, on which you ſeemed much to relie, helpe you nothing, what remaineth but one of theſe two? either muſt you yeeld before the battaile, or die in the battaile. I wiſh you would once at length take knowledge of that which Nazianzen writeth. We hauehave learned it to bee commendable, aſwell to yeeld vntounto reaſon, as with reaſon to ouercome.