Answer to Campian the Jesuit, Reasons · Answer 5
WILLIAM WHITAKERS. The anſwere to the fifth Reaſon, which is the Fathers.
NOw Campian calleth vponupon the Fathers, from whom, becauſe hee preſumes of a firme defence, he earneſtly deſireth a conflict, not like thoſe light skirmiſhes of men in the ſtreets, but a ſerious and conſtant diſputation, ſuch as Philoſophers vſe: Campian (you ſee) hath a better minde to conuerſe with Philoſophers, than with Diuines: for being furniſhed with Rhetoricke and Logicke, and hauing ſpent moſt of his time in often declaiming and in inuenting and anſwering ſophiſticall captions, he doubteth not of a famous victorie, if Philoſophers were Iudges. But (Campian) theſe matters are not to be diſputed among Philoſophers, which are otherwhiles deceiued with probabilitie and apparance of truth, following that opinion which themſelues iudge moſt agreeable to reaſon. This queſtion in hand, muſt be diſcuſted in the aſſemblie of moſt graue and learned Diuines, whom no iugling of words, no ſubtiltie in diſputation, no wit, no cunning, no youthfull inſolent boldnes, in quarrelling lying, or ſooliſh vaunting, can once moue, much leſſe remoue them from the truth they are perſwaded of. Here can you not hauehave libertie to bragge of your counterfeit deuiſes, Philoſophie may not ſit as iudge in theſe controuerſies, neither will thoſe things, wherein you chiefely truſt, be heere of any authority: you muſt leaue your owne erroneous and endleſſe walkes, and be drawne perforce into the compaſſe and limits of Scripture and true diuinitie. For Chriſt and his Apoſtles (as that diſcreete man ſaid in the Nicene Councell) commended not Logicke and vaine ſubtiltie vntounto vsus,Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 8. but a naked opinion, conſiſting in faith and good works: And this ſimple and ſincere word of truth, will eaſilie diſſolue all your cauils, will diſpell your artificiall miſts, and will hold you faſt as in a net, ſo that the more you ſtruggle to get out, the faſter and ſtraiter are you tied. But you haſte to the Fathers, and ſay, If we may once come vntounto them, the warre is ended. Now I muſt tell you, you make too much haſt, and ouerſlippe many things. Is the battaile ended, ſay you? Why, who had the victorie? This is verily childiſh and too ridiculous, but yet vſuall in your combats, to triumphe before the victorie. But I would heare how you hauehave finiſhed the warre, with ſuch admirable expedition: For (ſay you) the Fathers are as ſurely ours, as Gregorie the thirteenth himſelfe; the moſt louing Father of the Children of the Church. GiueGive me leaue to anſwere you in your owne words: My friends who are preſent, can you forbeare langhing? What could be affirmed, more weakely, fondly, or abſurdly? Call you him, the moſt louing Father of the Churches Children, whom wee knew to bee their furious and mortall aduerſaries? And conclude you that other to bee as true as this? I graunt aſwell the one as the other, for both are moſt falſe. What thinke you? hauehave you not got a famous victorie? And thus (Campian) you vſe to make an end of battailes, and put to flight great armies of aduerſaries. What remaineth, but that as Conqueror, you bee crowned with a Laurell garland, and carried with triumph into the Vatican, and ſolace your ſelf many yeeres with your deare Father Gregorie, that good old man? But now (Campian) proceed and proſecute the victorie, which you hauehave gotten. We hauehave (ſay you) whole volumes of the Fathers, which doe fully, diſtincty, and purpoſely declare that Euangelicall religion, which we now defend. Now you muſter and reckon vp your armies; whereby you procured this victorie, looke well to them, you were beſt, and lay ſure hold of them, leſt they reuolt, and forſaking you, come to our Tents: for you force them to bee with you againſt their wils. So that in the moſt dangerous and important fight, they flie vntounto vsus with ſpeede, and doe moſt ſharply aſſault and batter you. But let vsus conſider your volumes: The two fold Hierarchie of Denys the Martyr, what orders doth it teach vsus, what ſacrifices, what rites? Aſſuredly it teacheth vsus nouelties, vnheard of in the Scriptures; we therefore leaue both them and their author wholy vntounto you. For, though this Denys, whoſoeuer he were, was both for time ancient, and in his ſtile of writing, not vnlearned; yet, that he ſhould be the Ar…pagit…, whom Paul at Athens conuerted to the Faith, is altogether incredible. If you aske me a reaſon of this my opinion, I pray you reade diligently and conſideratly that which Laurentius Valla, and Eraſ…us of Roteradam hauehave written of him. Both of them perſwade, by no fained ſurmiſes, but by very weightie reaſons, and ſuch as (I weene) you will hardly gainſay, that this Denys cannot be the partie you report him to be. You then hauehave no reaſon to be angrie with Luther or Cauſſaeus if they handled thisaDVR. You ſay that Deny… is counterfeite, but proue it by no reaſon. But Origen, Nazianzene, Zoph…ine Archbiſhop of Hieruſalem, Damaſcene, Nicephorus, Euthemius, Dionyſius Archbiſhop of Alexa…dria, acknowledge his bookes & him to hauehave been a diſciple of S. Paul. WHIT. pag. 357. But I ſay that Antiquitie was altogether ignorant of his bookes; which could not be if they bad been written of Denys Arc…pagita: for Euſ…biu: diligently ſearching out, and ſetting downe all auncient writers, and all th…r bookes and Epiſtles which they writ, mentioneth not …im, nor his workes, neither doe any … the Greeke and Latin Fathers ſpeake of him. But who can thinke that the bookes of a diſciple of Saint Paul ſhould be vnknowne, and not highly eſteemed… of all in thoſe daies? Beſides he citeth the Epiſtles of Ig…tius, as alſo the Goſpell and Reuelation of S. Iohn, which muſt needs be written diuers yeares after the death of Denys Ar…pagita: hee writeth▪ an Epiſtle to Polycarpus and calleth him a ruler of the Church, when at his detah Polycarpus muſt needs be very yong▪ for Denys was ſlaine Anno Dom 96. Polycarpe died 1…6. being but 86. yeares of age; he calleth Timothy his ſonne, who was conuerted before euer that Ar…pagita vvas: he acknowledgeth that his maiſters had their learning from the Apoſtles, doth he not thereby deny himſelfe S. Paules ſcholer? finally the Church Hierarchie and all the names of the officers reckoned vp by him, were neuer knowne in the Apoſtles time▪ For your authors they are all new and late writers, but two. The firſt Origen, whom Eraſmus denieth Annot. in Act. 17. once to hauehave made m…otion of him in all his writings: neither euer doth Nazianzene. counterfeit ſomewhat roughly, and cenſured him freely. Where you ſay Caluin and the writers of the Centuries were offended with Ignatius, Ignatius.I confeſſe they had iuſt cauſe of offence. If heretikes alleaged him, to bee a patron of a wicked and deteſtable opinion, Caluin might with reaſon and diſcretion reiect him: how aptly and truly he was by them alleaged, I cannot tell, let them look to it. Howſoeuer it be, the truth ought not by his authoritie to be borne downe, whoſe credit is little, if any at all: you are not ignorant what the iudgement of all the learned is thoſe Epiſtles of Ignatius. Euſebius indeed makes mention of ſome of his Epiſtles, and Hierome of others: but now many more goe vnderunder his name, which they hauehave not mentioned. Hierome bDVR. If diuers of thoſe things there cited out of him bee not to bee found, hovv. follovveth it that thoſe works of his vvhichwhich are extant, bee forged and noue of his? WHIT. pag. 360. From thence verely it will follow that his works are not perfect, yea many things are found in his Epiſtles, which are incredible to hauehave been taught in thoſe daies: as the ſtrict keeping of Lent, and faſting vponupon the Sabbath daies; yea it was but latelie that theſe Epiſtles were printed and publiſhed, and ſo of the leſſe credit and authority.alſo reports a ſaying of his;Hier…n. Dial. 3. con. Pel. Theod. Dial. 3. and Theodoret another, which are not found in thoſe Epiſtles which are caried about: what would you hauehave more? Gratian himſelfe fauours not ouermuch this your Ignatius. You ſee then, of how obſcure, ſuſpected and vncertaine reputation are theſe two, which you place in the forefront of your armie.
You are offended, that the Cenſors, as you call them, vpbraide Irenaeus, as in ſome thing fantaſticall. We vſe not to ſpeake reprochfully of Irenaus, whom we confeſſe to hauehave been both holy and learned: but what is this to the purpoſe? If Iraneus hauehave written ſomething fooliſhly, muſt be therefore by and by, be wholy yours? And if ſome where we hauehave noted his opinion, as not true and ſound, doe we therefore reiect all his works? Is this your manner of diſputing (Campian) is this your skirmiſhing? are you of opinion, that neuer any word paſſed from Irenaeus vnaduiſedly, or which might iuſtly be tearmed vnreaſonable? Then tellcDVR. You that acknovveledge, and admit nothing but the Scriptures, can by no argument confute this err…r. WHIT. p. 362. What may worſe beſeeme a liuine, then thus to ſpeake? What thinke you of theſe places: Chriſt when he began to preach the Goſpell was about thirtie yeares of age? Luke 3.23. After his Baptiſme Iohn maketh mention of three Paſleouers, and that in the third he was put to death? Is not the time then very plainely ſet downe? and indeede what can be more plaine and caſie? Hence we may obſerue that the Fathers hauehave plainely erred, where you would hardly beleeue any man could erre. me, Campian, Lib. 2. cap. 39.40.how Chriſt preached onelyonly one yeare, yet was baptized the thirtieth yeare of his age, and died the fiftieth? what, ſhall we beleeue, that Chriſt taught onelyonly one yeare, and that the fortieth yeare? will you denie this to be a very new, ſtrange, and almoſt franticke noueltie? Beſides that, many write Irenaeus to hauehave been one of them, whom the Fathers call Millenaries; thinke you that was not a franticke opinion? And can you doubt of Clemens, whether hee hath ſometimes ſowne Tares? what call you that, where he denieth, that Chriſt indeed did either hunger or thirſt? Againe, that Chriſt taught but one yeere, which he had of Irenaus? Againe,Clement. Stromat. lib. 3. idem lib. 1. idem. lib. 5. that the Philoſophers in hel expected the comming of Chriſt, & being taught by owne mouth beleeued? Wil you deny thoſe to be Tares? and many of this kind are his to be found in the worthieſt writers of that age. If you denie it, bring me one whom I will not conuince to hauehave erred by your owne iudgement. You dare not ſay,Tertul. we hauehave wronged Tertullian: But you will vsus to remember, that the book of Preſcriptions was neuer taxed; which, for ought I remember, neuer was: though I confeſſe that writing, which you name, is notable, in which many things are written, very diuinely, againſt your Church.dDVR. But you tell vsus not any one particular whereby this may appeare. WHIT. pag. 365. I ſuppoſe you neuer read this booke, or elſe you would not make doubt of it. Is any thing more againſt your traditions, then that hee pronounceth a curie to them that ſhall bring any doctrine, but the ſelfe ſame which the nations receiued from the Apoſtles, and they from Chriſt himſelfe? And that men cannot be otherwiſe perſwaded of the things of faith, then from the writings of faith? when he gathereth from Chriſt ſending of his Apoſtles, that no Miniſters are elſe to be receiue, but ſuch as Chriſt hath ordeined? when whatſoeuer is later brought is forraine and falſe? when he w…eth, that faith muſt be built and borne vp, vponupon the writings of the Law and of the Prophets, the Euangelists and Apoſtles? I wonder you are not aſhamed of Hippolytus; of whom Harding himſelfe was almoſt aſhamed.Hippolyt. Thinke not that we are ought moued witheDVR. VVhy do you reiect this booke of Hippolyte as counterfeite? Hierome affirmeth, that he was a Biſhop, and hath written many Commentaries vponupon the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 367. Will it therefore follow that this booke is not counterfeit? nay it is the rather forged, becauſe Hierom doth not number it amongſt his bookes. Hyppolitus was a very worthy man, of whom Euſebius. Hierom, Theodoret, Nicephorus hauehave made verie honorable mention. But this booke is childiſh in the beginning, and in the whole altogether vnanſwerable to his eloquence and iudgement. authors of ſo ſmall credit, ſo lately drawne but of darknes, as they ſcarſe yet hauehave learned to looke vponupon the light. For what was this Hippolytus? He writ, you ſay, of Antichriſt. But how worthily? that fooliſh booke of Hippolytus, which a certaine man, I know not who, of late daies publiſhed, geſſeth, that the Diuell is Antichriſt, and faineth many other things: which neither can be true, nor were euer eſteemed for true. And yet you marueile we ſet him ſo light, whom no man regards or reads, or almoſt knowes. I can giuegive you good leaue to recken him for your owne, and if you will, let him hauehave a better note in your armie.
The accuſation concerning Cyprian, Cyprian.is more haynous, whom all men reuerence for his ſingular faith and excellent learning. But Cauſſaeus tearmeth him ſenſeleſſe and without God. They of Magdenburge, call him a corrupter of penance. Shall I be tied to take vponupon me, and defend eueryevery ſpeech, which any man hath at any time vttered? This Cauſſaeus I neuer ſaw, nor before this euer heard of him. But in as much, as you ſo odiouſly accuſe him, I ſuppoſe him to bee ſome learned and godly man. VntoUnto that he ſaith of Cyprian, I anſwere that which I remember I hauehave read infDVR. That Cyprian which Nazianzene ſpeaketh of, was not our Cyprian the Father of the Church. WHIT. pag. 367. Nazianzene certainely ſpeaketh of the ſame Cyprian. for ſee how hee deſcribes him; He did not only gouerne the Church of Carthage, and all Affricke, but the vvhole VVest, and almost the East, the Southerne and Northerne parts: how thinke you, is it not the ſame Cyprian? Nazianzene, viz. that he was in his youth diſſolute and giuen to much vice, and worſhipped Diuels, and vſed the helpe of Diuels: He was (ſaith Nazianzene) a worſhipper of Diuels, and after a diſciple of Christ. Nazian. de Cypri.Your vnreaſonablenes forceth me to mention thoſe things, which I had rather hauehave concealed. For in the Fathers imperfections, you ſticke faſt like a burre, and ceaſe not to rub vp the remembrance of thoſe things, which you ſhould doe better, not once to touch, If theſe things which Nazianzene reporteth of Cyprian be true, then Cauſſaeus might ſay, that Cyprian at that time was fooliſh and godleſſe. For I cannot thinke that Cauſſaeus would write ſo of him, but in regard of thoſe times, or that any man would conceiue ſo iniuriouſly, of that godly Martyr: whereas they of Magdenburge complaine that hee corrupted the doctrine of repentance, therein they forge againſt him no new accuſation, but rather diſcloſe that which all men know to hauehave been too true. Cyprian wrote ſome thing of Repentance very vnſeaſonably and vndiſcreetly, and not hegDVR. O ſingular impudencie! O intollerable arrogancie! what, hauehave all the Fathers in that age erred ſo ſouſely in ſo great a matter? As if they were ignorant that the works of repentance had any vertue any where elſe. but from the merits and blood of Christ. WHIT. pag. 369. What neede all this heate? It had been your part to hauehave ſhewed that the Fathers who then liued, hauehave ſpoken nothing vnfitly of repentance, ſo had you confuted that I charge them with, which your heare will not cure. And what if the Fathers hauehave thought that mens works hauehave all their vertue and power from the merit of Chriſt; will it thence follow they hauehave ſpoken nothing vnfitly of repentance and works? As if Chriſt by his death had onelyonly merited that we might by our works and merits deſerue eternall life; or that they who hold the foundation may not build timber or haie vponupon it. alone, but all the holy Fathers of that time, were tainted with that error. For being deſirous by ſeuere lawes, to limit and reſtraine the euill manners of men, they made the greateſt part of Repentance to conſiſt, in certaine outward diſciplines, which they appointed: which ſeuere cenſuring of ſinne & ſharpe puniſhing of wickednes, might happely be borne withall: but when they thought the puniſhment of ſinne to be diſcharged, Gods iuſtice ſatisfied, freedome from ſinne, and certeine forgiuenes with righteouſnes hereby to be procured; herein they diminiſhed the power of Chriſts death, they attributed too much to their owne inuentions, and in a word depraued the doctrine of repentance: becauſe our ſinnes are clenſed and remoued, by no offices or workes of ours, but only by the blood and paſſion of Chriſt. And ſo your obiection of Repentance is anſwered. We doe not for all this deny the workes of Cyprian, nor reiect the bookes of any Father of that age, as you falſely affirme, ſeeing both he and they agree with vsus in the greateſt queſtions: but this is the priuiledge of you and your fellowes, that you euen greedily hunt after, and purſue, whatſoeuer is faulty in any author, as if all the Fathers errors, ſerued to make vp the body and faith of your religion. Something, you ſay, Cyprian wrote to Cornelius, which if we giuegive credit vntounto: then Peter Martyr and his cōfederats, muſt be held for worſe thē adulterous & ſacrilegious; but what that is, I cannot ſo much as couiecture. I know that Cyprian ſent many letters to Cornelius, but none of them accuſe vsus, either of adultery or ſacriledge; neither can you out of thoſe letters alleadge any thing to our preiudice or your aduantage: but this is euer your manner, to proue nothing clearely and diſtinctly, but only to name the Fathers, and from their names, to raiſe certaine rouing & vncertaine ſuſpitions. That which you write of Chambers and pillowes, I paſſe ouer as nothing elſe, but ſcoffing and reproachfull taunts, ſuch as is common in eueryevery varlets mouth. Now you come to the next age, and heere you mention Chryſostome, Nazianzene, Ambroſe, and Hierome. But to what purpoſe I pray you?Chryſostom. for what if Luther do cenſure Chryſoſtome ſharply, becauſe by too much aduauncing our works and merits, he obſcureth the righteouſnes of faith? what though Cauſſaeus find ſome thing fabulous in Nazianzene? Nazian.hDVR. You freely graunt that Chryſoſtome, Nazianzene, Ambroſe, and Hierome are on Campians ſide: and yet you pleaſantly demaund are theſe Fathers wholy yours? we, who are then true ſonnes, doe not challenge them as halfe Fathers, but wholy our Fathers. WHIT. pag. 370. When did I euer grant Campian ſo much? I ſhould certeinly doe the Fathers great iniury, if I ſhould adiudge them for Campian, who are ſo farre different from him. And for your kindred with them; it is but as the Iewes were Abrahams children: for if you were the children of the Fathers, you would hold the faith of the Fathers. For the Scribes and Phariſies were not the children of Moſes, becauſe they ſate in Moſes chaire. Neither are they the children of the Saints, who hold the places of the Saints; as Hierome. Neither hauehave they the inheritance of Peter, which hauehave not the faith of Peter; as Ambroſe: neither ought faith to be tried by perſons, but perſons by ſaith, as Tertullian hath written. We verily louelove and duly reuerence the Fathers, yet wee acknowledge but one Father in heauen, and one teacher, which is Chriſt. And if you acknowledge them wholy your Fathers, why doe you forſake many of their opinions?therefore are theſe Fathers wholie on your ſide? what is this elſe but dotage, and to ſpeake without witte or feare? Some body ſaid that Ambroſe was bewitched by the diuell;Ambroſe. whether any euer ſaid it or no, I neuer knew, neither is it greatly materiall; the beſt & moſt righteous men, may ſometimes be ſo farre bewitched, as they doe not in ſome things perceiue the truth: and you doe too openly bewray your malice, by labouring to raiſe an euill opinion of him, and to make vsus infamous for ſuch ſpeeches as may hauehave a good conſtruction, though at the firſt they ſeeme odious. Certeinly I hauehave read many Papiſts, and heard of ſome, all paſſing ſhameleſſe, and malepere; but more impudent then your ſelfe, in all my life, did I neuer know any. There is no end of your lying, you feare no mens cenſure, there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you ſpeake. Euen now you ſet vponupon Beza with a freſh lye. He (you ſay) hath written that Hierome is as ſurely damned, as the diuell, becauſe he was iniurious to the Apoſtles, a blaſphemous, a wicked, and an vngodly man. That Beza affirmeth not theſe things, I proteſt and a…ow: let any man that will, ſee the place; if it be otherwiſe, let me be accounted very infamous. For as for thoſe firſt words, that Hierome was damned aſwell a… the diuell, either they are by malicious cauelling fetched out of ſome other place, as all the reſt are, or altogether forged, as the moſt. In the place alledged, there is no ſuch thing: Concerning that he ſaith of Iniury and Blasphemy, I will ſet downe Beza his owne words, that all men may know your impudency. Euen Hierome, Beza in annot. noui Teſtam. in Act. Apoſt. cap. 23.ſaith Beza, if it be true that Eraſmus vponupon this place ſaith of him, is not only iniurious to the Apostle, in that hee findeth want of moderation, in this ſpeech, wherin rather appeareth his Diuine courage but alſo is openly blasphemous, in that euen in Christ himſelfe he hath found ſome ſigne of imperfection. Thus far Beza: the matter of his complaint, is about S. Paules ſharpe anſwere vntounto the high Prieſt, in which Hierome, (as Eraſmus teſtifieth) in his Dialogues againſt Pelagius, findeth ſome want of moderatiō, & not only ſo, but euen in Chriſt himſelf, he looketh for ſome imperfection of piety; which reports of Hierome, if it be true as Eraſmus affirmeth, why might not Beza iuſtly eſteeme him, in the one iniurious to the Apoſtle, in the other ſo blaſphemous againſt Chriſt? For what can bee deuiſed more vnworthy the Apoſtle then that in his anſwere to the high Prieſt, he ſhould ſhew too much ſpleene, or what could be ſpoken more blaſphemous againſt Chriſt, thē that the grace, wherewith he was indued, was imperfect. But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldnes, in wreſting the Scriptures, wherein he hath moſt iuſt cauſe of complaint: for either Hierome wreſted the Scriptures, or they are ſo weake and eaſie of themſelues, as they may be any way turned. And truly he muſt be very deſperate, that ſhould defend Hieromes interpretations. Gregorius Maſſonius esteemeth more of Caluin, then of a thouſand Augustines: Luther is not moued though a thouſand Austens, Cyprians, Churches▪ be againſt him. The anſwere is ready: whoſoeuer ſpeaketh truth, in that reſpect, is more to be eſteemed, then a great multitude that could not diſcerne the truth. They therfore that hauehave obſerued the errors of the Fathers, either thoſe you hauehave named, or the reſt, which heere alſo you recken vp, Optatus, Athanaſius, Hilarie, Cyrill, Epiphanius Baſil, Vincentius, Fulgentius, Lee, and Gregory of Rome, and hauehave admoniſhed the Readers of them; are ſo farre from malepertnes herein; as that cōtrary, they hauehave performed a work, for the Church needfull, profitable, and acceptable to all good and godly men. For as the true expoſitions of Scriptures, are to bee expounded to the Churches, ſo are the contrary to bee reiected.Hierom. Paul. August. Hierome ſaith well, it is the worst kind of teaching, to depraue ſentences of Scripture, and to draw them perforce to ſerue our turnes. Wherefore we profeſſe with Augustine; All writers and their ſayings must bee iDVR. That trial muſt not be made by Apoſtate Monks, but by lawfull Pastors and doctors. WHIT. pag. 372. And why not I pray you? is it becauſe they are Monkes? I thinke not: or becauſe they hauehave departed frō you? That is the matter; as it none might touch, reade, & examine the ſcriptures, but thoſe who hauehave plight their troth to you, neuer to aſſent to the Scriptures, though they directly cōtradict popiſh doctrin we would willingly harkē to lawfull Paſtors, examining & interpreting the Scriptures, ſuch as you hauehave none. Becauſe with you examinatiōs muſt not be made by the rule of ye ſcriptures, but after the wil of the Pope, and all your Paſtors hauehave tyed thēſelues to the iudgemēt of the Romiſh Antichriſt: that, yt which they ſee, they wil not ſee, if it diſpleaſe ye Pope, by whoſe ſpirit they are guided.iudged, according to the holy Scriptures, the authority wherof is more excellent, then the whole nature of man is able to conceiue: not that I diſallow the opinions of the most worthy Fathers, but I follow thoſe that come nearest vntounto the Scriptures, and when the Scripture it ſelfe is manifest, I embrace it before them all. Whereas then we conſider the ſayings of the Fathers, and examine them by the light of Scriptures, we do here nothing vnwonted, nothing boldly or arrogantly; but you hauehave alwaies been fliers of the light of Scriptures, as Tertullian ſpeaketh:Tertul. de Reſurrect. and therefore do ſo diligently prouide for lurking holes in the Fathers, that you may alwaies hauehave ſome place of refuge. For ſeeing Scriptures faile you, what remaineth, but that you ſeeke aide from any, euen the meaneſt?
But you tell vsus, why we do ſo much anoid the Fathers. I had rather you would tell vsus why you doe ſo carefully auoide the Scriptures. For (ſay you) they that cannot away with ſet times of Faſting, must needs be offended with Baſil, Naziancene, Leo, and Chryſoſtome, which hauehave publiſhed excellent Sermons of Lent. Chriſt ordeined no ſet and ordinary faſts in the Goſpell,kDVR. Who hath but ſo much as ſaluted the Fathers, and knoweth not this to be ſalfe? for the obſeruation of Lent is most auncient and ordained by the Apoſtles. WHIT. pag. 371. I deny it not to be moſt auncient, but not inſtituted by the Apoſtles; for Apollonius writeth that Montanus firſt made lawes for let and certaine faſts; and Tertullian when hee was become a Montaniſt, writeth as much in his booke wherein he defendeth the faſts of Montanus. Againe, the Apoſtles neuer put any religion in choiſe and change of meats, Rom. 14.17. Coll. 2 16. Tit. 1.1…. and ſo ordeined not Lene. Laſtly the Churches of the Apoſtles differed much in this faſt, both in their times, & in their kinds of meat; as Euſebius & …ocrates record; which would neuer hauehave bin if it had bin Apoſtolical, at leaſt as Papiſts do affirme, who take in for a truth, that thoſe Churches would faithfully perſiſt in the Apoſtles decrees. Lent was appointed long after, and the manner of obſeruing it in thoſe times, was not one & the ſame in all Churches. We both allow and vſe publike and Chriſtian faſts which are fitted to the time and the Churches occaſions: as for your appointed, and yearely ſolemne faſts, we do with good reaſon reiect them, becauſe they are full of ſuperſtition, and iniurious vntounto Chriſtian liberty. Our iudgement of faſting is the ſame which Augustine hath taught:August. Epiſt. 86. I find it not ſet downe in any Commandement of the Lord, or his Apostles, what daies we ought to fast, what not. Augustine then knew not theſe your ſet yearely ceremonies of faſting, not your Lenten faſt, which hath a certeine time and number of daies preſcribed. Further (you ſay) they that hauehave ſet their ſoules to ſale for gold, lust, exceſſe, and worldly oſtentation how can they be but most oppoſite to Baſil, Chryſoſtome, Hierome, and Auguſtine, whoſe bookes of the profeſſion of Monkes are in eueryevery mans hands? what will you cenſure all to be couetous, luſtfull, gluttonous, or ambitious that are not Monkes? backe with that foot you were beſt, for feare of your head: for neither the Pope, nor his Cardinals and Biſhops, hold it either neceſſary, or conuenient for them to lay aſide, their abundant wealth, continuall pleaſures, their dainty fare, their kingly honor, and thruſt themſelues into a Monaſterie; whoſoeuer liueth after their faſhion, cannot be well affected to Baſil, nor any man that is holy.lDVR. VVhen you are ouercome by the truth, you ſlander our liues, and ſpeake euill of our perſons. WHIT. pag. 377. I do not ſlander you, nor detract from you, the world hath vnderſtood long agoe what manner of men you vvere. If you be grovvne better I ſhould be glad of it. But I knovv men hauehave iudged othervviſe of this order, and ſuch as did not hate your Monaſticall life. For the Romiſh Cardinals and Priors did vvrite thus to the Pope himſelf. There is another abuſe amongst the orders of religious men, for many are ſo deformed and out of order, that they are a great ſcandale to the people, and hurt much by their example. VVe thinke that all orders ought to be aboliſhed. For they are altogether ſo drowned in ſenſuality and exceſſe, making themſelues drudges vntounto their ambitions, banquets, and delights. And to conclude: in the whole courſe of their liues, ſo behauing themſelues, as becommeth better ſenſuall and voluptuous perſons, proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures, then graue teachers out of Chriſts Schoole. Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth ſhame vponupon you, and hath done continually and moſt deſeruedly? you for all that bluſh not to lay thoſe things to our charge, which are well inough knowne to bee your owne fault; your Prelates and Monkes, whoſe goodly order and ſtraite rule of ſeuere diſcipline, (you report) differ as much from other men, as the Tarrentines were wont to affirme that they excelled all others, who giuing themſelues wholy ouer to pleaſures, (while the moſt tooke great paines and alwaies did ſomething whereby to liue) thought their life the only true life. Such is and hath bin your life, that others muſt ſeeme not to liue, if that be to liue which you hauehave eſteemed. But what need I anſwere you any more of faſting and Monkiſh orders, which hauehave not one Monke in your whole Church any thing reſembling thoſe of auncient time, neither do you obſerue the old manner of faſting? but you goe on, and vpbraide vsus with fouler matters. They that hauehave brought a bondage vponupon mans will, which hauehave taken away Christian funerals, which hauehave burned Saints reliques can they (ſay you) be well pleaſed with Auguſtine? we (Campion) hauehave wronged no Saints, we hauehave neither burned their reliques, nor taken away their funerals:mDVR. Therefore you hauehave taken away the reliques of the Saints, and the funerals of Chriſtians, as ſuperſtitions and iniurious to the maieſtie of God. WHIT. pag. 370. Are you ſo vvithout iudgement, that you cannot diſtinguiſh betvvixt things and the ſuperſtitious vſe of them? It is not theſe not any comely buriall vve diſlike, but Popiſh pompcions funerals and impious vvorſhipping of reliques. only we could not ſuffer any prophane ſuperſtition, iniurious to the Maieſtie and glorie of God; and for this we hauehave the direction of God himſelfe, being our patterne whom we follow, and Augustine alſo herein conſenteth with vsus: But we hauehave captiuated the will of man, and then (you ſay) how can we be well affected vntounto Auguſtine? well inough, why not? for (ſay you) he writ three bookes of free will. A moſt witles and ridiculous collection: Augustine writ three bookes of freewill, ergo Augustine affirmeth that men hauehave freewill. If that reaſon be currant, then this alſo: Augustine writ a booke of two ſoules againſt the Manichees; alſo a booke of lying; another of the quantity of the ſoule; ergo Auguſtine defendeth two ſoules in a man; ergo he praiſed lying; ergo he attributeth greatnes & quantity to the ſoule. I pray you what difference is there? I graunt Auguſtine writ thoſe bookes you mention, but they ouerthrow not our opinion, who affirme that the will of man is in bondage: & if euer you had peruſed thoſe bookes, you would neuer hauehave affirmed it, nor once named the bookes in this matter. Auguſtine writ theſe bookes againſt the Manichees, wherein he diſputeth not of mans freewill, which is the point in controuerſie, but of the cauſe of ſinne which proceeded from freewill, and he entituled thoſe bookes of freewill, becauſe in them he intendeth to ſhew, that the originall and beginning of ſinne is to be found in mans freewill, not in God. This you might eaſily hauehave learned out of his retractations; for thus he writeth.Retract. lib. 1.1. q. The diſcourſe was vndertaken for them that deny ſin to hauehave his originall from the free action of our will, affirming, that from this would follow, that God himſelfe the author of nature is culpable. And ſo proceedeth, vtterly denying, that he had any purpoſe in thoſe bookes, to ſpeake of that will, which is made free by Gods grace. And whatſoeuer in theſe books paſſed his pen, which ſeemed to fauour the Pellegians, then Patrons of freewill, as you are now, all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke, and cleareth it from their cauils. HaueHave we any cauſe to be offended with Auguſtine, which in this queſtion is not againſt vsus? And that you may plainly perceiue, how indiſcreetly you alledged theſe bookes of freewill, marke what hee writeth of the will of man in thoſe ſame bookes:nDVR. Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce? all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man, though free, is able to do nothing to merit heauen by, but by the grace of God. And you are ignorant that the freedome of will conſiſteth in this, that by no neceſſitie it is carried to either part. WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much. But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace, and not made good by grace: ſo you teach that no new will is infuſed, but the natural is helped, and as it were vnlooſed by grace; which is not much from Pelagianiſme: for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature, that it need not be giuen him from aboue, but only by the helpe of grace, to be drawne out of certeine difficulties, in which the corruption of ſinne had left it. And as for my ignorance I confeſſe it, and thinke it more learned then your knowledge; for if thoſe who do things neceſſarily, do them not freely, then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely; for God worketh well, and the diuell euill, neceſſarily. So you ſee neceſſity is not oppoſed to freewill: for not neceſſity, but force and compulſion taketh away the freedome of the will. Hold thou faſt (ſaith Auguſtine) this principall of piety, Delibere Arbit. 61.2. cap. 20.that no good thing happens vntounto thee, either when thou thinkeſt or vnderſtandeſt, or any way imagineſt, which is not from God. And this was Auguſtines conſtant opinion of freewill: after that being ſtirred by the Pellagians, he throughly vnderſtood the queſtion, viz. that he iudged it, to be vtterly loſt and gone.oDVR. The meaning of the place is this, that man ſo loſt his freewill, that be lost himſelfe; yet ſo as no man in his right wits will deny, but he is a man ſtill. WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we deſire: for as man loſt himſelfe, and yet remained a man, but not ſuch as he was, good, iuſt, holy, indued with perfection, but cleane changed: ſo the free will of man was loſt, not that no wil remained, but that it was changed from good to euill; for we ſay not there is remaining no freewill at all; but no good wil: as we affirme not, there is no man at all remaining, but no good man. Man (ſaith he) by abuſing his freewill loſt both it and himſelfe.Enchir. 3.
But yet further you vrge Auguſtine againſt vsus, for (ſay you) they that make their captious deuiſes, the rule of their faith, muſt not they bee offended with Auguſtine, which hath an excellent Epiſtle againſt Manicheus? An Epiſtle (Campian) do you call it? it was euer accounted a booke: but what is there in that Epiſtle (as you call it) againſt vsus? in which he profeſſeth himſelfe to agree with Antiquity, vnity, perpetuall ſucceſſion, and with that Church, which alone amongſt ſo many hereſies, hath attained vntounto the name Catholike by preſcription. We alſo agree with that Church, which hath all theſe. And yet to theſe muſt be added (as Auguſtine ſaith in the ſame place) ſincere wiſdome and truth; elſe all the other bind vsus not; for they are of no value without that wiſdome; but this wiſdome and truth, though without theſe, is of it ſelfe to bee preſerred before all things: ſo ſaith Augustine, Cont. Fundam. cap. 4.if the truth appeare manifestly, ſo as it cannot be doubted of, it alone is more to be eſteemed then pDVR Auguſtine affirmeth, that theſe cannot be without the truth. WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine ſheweth the contrarie: for if truth cannot be ſeparated from theſe, he had ſpoken very vnfitly, when he ſaid, he preferred the truth before all theſe. If you can take or rightly challenge the poſſeſſiō of truth, in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity, Vnity, & Succeſſion.all thoſe reaſons, that keepe me in the Catholike Church. Thus then Auguſtine ſetteth more by the truth it ſelfe alone, and ſincere wiſdome, then all thoſe things you mention, Antiquity Vnity, Succeſſion, and we perceiuing this truth and wiſdome ſo manifeſtly in our Churches, that none, that will ſee the truth, can doubt whether we hold the truth or no; do willingly giuegive you free liberty to bragge, whileſt you liſt, of antiquity, vnity, & ſucceſſion, without the truth. There is then, as you ſee, no cauſe, why we ſhould be angry with Auguſtine, either now or before.
But at length you leaue Augustine, and call out Optatus, Biſhop of Miletum; of whom you ſay, you deſire to know, what our opinion is. I verily thinke he was a good Father, and very like vntounto Auguſtine, and I take the things to be true, which many worthy men hauehave ſaid in his commendation. But he diſproued the Donatiſts by the communion of the Catholike Church. Why ſhould he not? or what doth that cōcerne vsus? Auguſtine alſo obſerued the ſame courſe, and it was a good motiue, that the communion of the Church ſhould be obiected to the ſchiſmaticall Donatiſts, which ſeditiouſly without cauſe, ſeparated themſelues from the Church. But wee deny your Church to be Catholike, and therefore you cannot thus conuince vsus, though Optatus might therby confute the Donatiſts. It muſt firſt appeare, that it is the Church, before we can be conuicted of ſchiſme. TheqDVR. So indeed Caluin anſwereth, but it will not ſerue your turne: for Opratus proueth himſelf to be in the Catholike Church, becauſe he ioyned himſelfe to Saint Peters chaire. WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire? the externall ſeate, or the ſucceſſion of Biſhops? you ſhall neuer proue it, and the contrary I cen eaſily obiect out of Optatus himſelfe. Optatus calleth Syritius Biſhop of Rome his fellow, and the companion of other Biſhops who held a ſound and Catholike iudgement. With all thoſe Syricius agreed in one ſociety and fellowſhip, by their letters ſent one to another as witneſſes of their conſenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination: Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike, becauſe he kept the Catholike confeſsion and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Biſhops. Finally his argument was good againſt the Donatiſts, who did ſeparate themſelues from the communion of the Catholike Church, while they conſented not with theſe Churches, where the doctrine of the Apoſtles and a lawfull ordination of Biſhops did euer flouriſh. But it is nothing to vsus and you. Church of Rome was then the preſeruer of Religion, the maintainer of the true faith, and ſhined like a ſtarre in the ſight of all other Churches: no maruell then though the moſt holy Fathers, eſteemed much the reuerence of this Church, & vrged the heretikes with the example of it,Irenaeus. August. as a great preiudice vntounto them. Hence it is, that ſometimes they alledge the decrees and ſucceſſion of the Biſhops of Rome, therby prouing that the hereſies, by them refuted, were not heard of, in the moſt famous and honorable Church. But ſince that time the courſe of the Church is turned, and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her ſincere faith, to deteſtable falſhood. Reſtore vsus (Campian) the old Church of Rome, and we will neuer ſeparate our ſelues from her: but of that Church you hauehave nothing left, but the walles and old rubbiſh, yet ſtill you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church. And whereas you mention Altars, on which the members of Chriſt are carried, and Chalices containing his blood, I know well many things concerning Altars, are to be found in the auncient Fathers, which Altars in Africa, were not of ſtone, butrDVR. VVhat difference is there? the Donatiſts ouerthrew vvoodden Altany, and you Altars of ſtone. WHIT pag. 389. They troubled ſacred tables by their ſacriledge: not reprouing the adminiſtration of the Sacrament, but the ordination of Biſhops, which yet was lawfull: we hauehave caſt downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Maſſe and prophane Idolatry. Is there no difference, thinke you? woodden, as you may ſee in Auguſtines Epiſtle to Boniface: and I graunt the members of Chriſt, and hisſDVR. Optatus writeth that the body of Chriſt dwelleth vponupon the Altar. WHIT. pag. 390. I anſwere that the ſacrament of the body of Chriſt is after a ſort Chriſts body, and the name of the thing is giuen to the ſigne,, as is vſuall in all Sacraments. For the body of Chriſt is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father, where it ſhall remaine to the end of the world. blood are receiued in the holy myſteries, but after a heauenly and ſpiritual manner,Epiſt. 50. appropriate vntounto our moſt holy faith. As for your deuouring of fleſh, Optatus was not acquainted with it, and the auncient Church of Chriſt, not ſo much as euer dreamed of ſo great a monſter.
They ſing (ſay you) in their Churches, the Creed of Athanaſius, but they fauour him not; and why? becauſe he praiſeth Antony the Hermit. You ſpeake wiſely; astDVR. But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praiſe, whom Athanaſius praiſed in the perſon of Antony? WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits, yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes, as vve hauehave done and profeſſe it for iuſt cauſes, ſeeing they differ both ſo much in manners and iudgements. Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to ſay, that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage, as for fiſhes to leaue the water. If you praiſe Antony ſo much, vvhy do you not follovv him? vvhy do you ſvvarme in all cities and famous places, and doe not rather liue in ſome remote wilderneſſe, as fiſhes ſwim in the Sea? ſo ſhould you be more like to Antony, and free theſe parts from great damage. though we were ſo enuious, that we could not with patience endure any man to be praiſed: nay there is ſomewhat elſe.Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria, humblie appealed vntounto the ſentence of the Apoſtolike Sea: this Epiſtle is all counterfeit, compacted of many lies, and monſtrous flattery. Prudentius I grant as auDVR. Becauſe he was a Poet, forgate hee to be a Christian? or did he any thing in verſe, which infinit & learned …athers hauehave not done before in proſe? WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verſe required, more then vvhat piety called for, and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the ſtreight doctrine of the Scriptures? And ſuch liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith: yet ſee hovv fooliſh it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reaſons in the controuerſies of religion. And if Prudentius follovved ſo many Fathers, vvhy name you not one of them▪ For 300. yeares after Chriſt there vvas no ſuch cuſtome in the Church, vvhichwhich you affirme ſo infinite a number of Fathers vſed: and it roſe vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies; but both this and all other ſuperſtitions muſt be corrected by the authority of the vvord. Poet, ſometimes called vponupon the Martyrs, whoſe acts he deſcribes in verſe, and the ſuperſtitious cuſtome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church: which as a Tyrant haled ſometimes the holy Fathers into the ſame error. As for Vigillantius and Iouinian, againſt whom Hirr… writeth moſt bitterly; if they taught thoſe things that are laid to their charge, we maintaine them not. That*DVR. It ſeemeth you hauehave nothing to anſwere to Ambroſe at all. WHIT. pag. 393. HaueHave I anſwered nothing, when a few lines before I affirmed that this ſuperſtition had got great footing in the Church? was it not anſwere enough to ſhew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of ſome Fathers? What gaine you by this, if we profeſſe freely that ſome Fathers were infected with the errors of the time, who yet kept ſound doctrine in the fundamentall points; whereas notorious corruption hath ſpread it ſelfe ouer your whole Church & cōſumed it, & the beginnings of corruptions in them, is growne to an height in you without hope of cure? Ambroſe ſhould be carefull, to commend and ſet ſorth the praiſes of his friends Geruaſius and Protaſius, we willingly permit. Neither doe we wholy miſlike Gregory, with whom ſurely you hauehave more cauſe to be offended, then we. But wheras he ſaid that Images were lay-mens bookes, hee neither learned inxDVR. Anſwere me, in vvhat ſchoole did you learne to breake downe Images? not in the ſchooles of Chriſtians, but of Iewes. WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the ſchoole of the holy Ghoſt, Deut 5.8. Ioſh. 24.23. where wee are taught to worſhip one God with religious worſhip, and to caſt out of the Church, to breake and burne the Images of men, though neuer ſo holy. Moſes beate the Calfe to powder, & the holy Ghoſt commended Hez…a for breaking aſunder the brazen Serpent, though it was ſet vp by God… authority, when the Iſraelits abuſed it to ſuper…ion; how much more ought we to deſtroy prophane Images & monuments of curſed idolatrie? Epiphanius being taught in this ſchoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple, hauing painted innt the picture of Chriſt or ſome Saint. As alſo Serenus Biſhop of Maſſilia, who tooke downe & broke the Images of his time. I hauehave learned this then not out of the ſchooles of the Iewes, …innike… and Idolaters, but out of the ſchooles of Chriſtians, which may not be polluted with Images. the ſchoole of the holy Ghoſt, nor foundyDVR You ſhevv your ignorance or impudency, vvhen you knovv not, or deny that vvhichwhich is eueryevery vvhereto be read among the Fathers, as in Theodoret, Domaſen, Auguſtine, Gregory Niſſen. Metaphraſtes, Athanaſius and others. WHIT. pag. 399. Theſe teſtimonies do rather ſhew your raſhnes & deſire to deceiue; for they are partly faired, as that of Gregory Niſſen and Athanaſius, & partly not to the purpoſe by them I vnderſtand that Images were made, but they proue not that they were placed in the churches & worſhipped. Your reaſon concludeth not, There were Images among the Chriſtiās before the times of Gregory: therfore they placed them in their churches to teach the people, and to be worſhipped of them with holy worſhip. it in the books of the Fathers yt were before him; and thus at length, hauehave you finiſhed this longe catalogue of the Fathers. The reaſon I would faine know, that moued you to go thorough them on this manner. For what? are you ſo blockiſh your ſelfe to thinke, or hope you, that any others will like of this kind of reaſoning: viz. Luther, Caluin and their confederates, doe write that Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chryſoſtome, Auguſtine, Hierome, Ambroſe, Gregory, Baſil, and Nazi… zen, do otherwiles erre in ſome queſtions in this or that booke, and they ſaw not the true meaning of ſome Scripture, but were ſometimes deceiued, that is, they were men: therefore they baniſh, reiect and condemne all theſe Fathers? Is this your meaning, Campian? why then do you your ſelues, being verie often by plaine authorities of the Fathers cōuinced, deny flatly that you are tyed to the authority of any father, and from them you appeale to the iudgment of the Church? Would you not thinke your ſelf hardly dealt withal, if hence I ſhould inferre, that you diſallow the Fathers whole volumes? But this is the iſſue of your diſputation, and the marke whereat all this your diſcourſe aymeth, namely, that becauſe we diſlike ſome things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a hainous and vnhard-of wickednes.
Thinke not (Campian) our Vniuerſitie to be ſo childiſh that they cannot diſcerne the indifferencie of our proceeding herein, from your vniuſt calumniation. The Fathers wee eſteeme highly, wee peruſe them daily, we commend them to the reading of all ſuch as exactly and diligently ſtudie Diuinitie. By this meanes we encreaſe our knowledge, and are better furniſhed with armour of defence againſt you. You are afraide to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epiſtles, Sermons, Homilies, Orations, Works, Diſputations of Fathers, by which the Catholikes opinions are confirmed. Some fragments perhaps, ſay you, throwne in corners, which without much paines and wearines you could not collect, yet your fellowes of late yeares hauehave diligently ſought out and publiſhed: Whileſt they (ſay you) are to be ſolde at the Stationers, ſo long our mens bookes are in vaine prohibited: we are ſorry you ſhould write ſuch things, as we muſt of neceſſitie reſtraine, your bookes are ſuch as it behooueth vsus to ſtoppe their paſſage, vnleſſe we would ſuffer the State to be ſtirred to ſedition, the Church in danger of hereſie, and mens minds filled with curſed opinions. For if Magiſtrates ought carefully to preuent, leſt the infection of the plague, be from other places brought into their cities; much more care is to be had, that peſtilent and pernicious bookes bee nor openly ſpread abroad, out of which ſimple and vnlearned men doe ſucke poyſon of deadly error. Neither are we the firſt that hauehave taken this courſe. You may remember in Queene Maries time, that they proceeded by marſhall law againſt all thoſe, with whom any of our bookes were found. If this were in vsus a matter worthie of death, ſo that we were by and by drawne to puniſhment, as men guiltie of high treaſon, and that without any iud…al proceedings, ſmall reaſon hauehave you to looke, that your bookes now, ſhould hauehave ſuch free libertie, to bee eueryevery where publikelie ſolde. We take order, that the bookes of the holy Fathers, are brought vntounto vsus from eueryevery matte, we buie them, we hauehave them in our priuate ſtudies and publike Liberarie a wo… place them in open view, that they be knowns; nor onelyonly by face, but by dailie familiaricie. Where you affirme, that neither Sanders, nor Harding, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, doe more …gerly inneigh againſt thoſe dreames, then the Fatherd before mentioned: you hauehave added this ſaying as an ouerplus to the things that went before. Theſe your old ſouldiers hauehave imployed in this caſe, whatſoeuer, either reading or leyſure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could ſupply vntounto them, and for all this hauehave gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with theſe, to performe that, wherein they hauehave failed? yet you ſaid, that thinking of theſe things, your courage increaſed, and you deſired the combate. I bewaile (Campian) your raſhnes, and fooliſh hardines, which will needs take vponupon you, the patronage of a deſperate cauſe, with the vndoubted loſſe of your credit and ſafety; and I wiſh that the day may once come, wherin you may make triall of your ſtrength in the combate which you deſire.
Iohn Iewel (ſay you) challenged the Catholikes, when you were a young ſtudent, calling vponupon and deſiring the helpe of the Fathers, as many as flouriſhed 600. yeares after Chriſt. That worthy man, did that he knew himſelfe able to performe: he had read ouer all the Fathers with ſpeciall iudgement and diligence; hee ſaw how you deceiued the ignorant, he had a care to preſerue his countrimen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boaſting, as you would hauehave it, but truſting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cauſe, he calleth forth all the generation of Papiſts vntounto this triall, viz. if they could confirme their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witnes of Fathers and Councels, they ſhould ouercome: if they failed, they ſhould confeſſe themſelues were vanquiſhed. Certeine renowmed men (ſay you) liuing as Exiles as Lo…ane, entertaine th… offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captaine of theſe, he aduentured himſelfe hand to hand, in this combate, but how worthily performed he the condition? I…wel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certeine Clements, Abdies, Martials, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes, and others of this rancke, Fathers of worſhipfull antiquitie: If all the auncient Fathers of the Church, be (as you bragge) of your ſide, why ſhould Harding turne his backe ſo cowardly, bringing in for witneſſes in a moſt waighty cauſe wherin we demaunded the iudgement of antiquitie, a company of vpſtart baſtards, I know not fromwhence, whom no man before had ſaluted, ſeene or heard of, paſſing by of purpoſe, the knowne and truly noble Fathers? Is this the reuerend antiquity you talke of? muſt wee hauehave theſe fellowes digged out of their graues, to helpe you in your deſperate cauſe? heare me (Campian) that which Iewel then ſaid moſt truly and confidently, challenging you to the triall of ſixe hundred yeares antiquity, offering alſo to yeeld you the victory, if you brought one plaine and manifeſt authority, out of any Father or Councell; that ſame we do all profeſſe and promiſe, and will ſurely performe it.
Twentie yeares are expired, and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition: if you perſwade your ſelfe to hauehave more ſufficiency hereunto, then your maſters before hauehave had, why ſtay you? why ſit you ſtill? why diſcontinue you the defence of ſo good a cauſe? But alas, you are no body, you hauehave read nothing, you hauehave no ſtrength anſwerable to ſuch an endeuor. The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel, as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers, or performed leſſe then he promiſed; but only that he had yeelded further vntounto you, then he needed, and called backe the cauſe which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he diſtruſted any thing, the triall of Scriptures; for hee knew that they were ſufficient to refute all popiſh errors: but that hereby he might beate downe that their inſolent and moſt falſe bragge of antiquitie, which preuailed with many. You ſay further that you hauehave conferred ſometimes familiarly with To…y Matthew, and w…led him to anſwere freely, whether hee that read the Fathers diligently, could bee of that part which …e fauoured. Although in priuate and familiar conference wee ſay many things, which we would not hauehave further reported, or diſperſed, yet I doubt not, but the worthy Mathew gaue you ſuch an anſwere, as was both agreeable to the truth, and fit for his iudgement and wiſdome. Wee muſt not in all things beleeue the Fathers, nor doth our faith depend vponupon their word. Sometimes they hauehave erred and been the occaſion of errors vntounto others; yet may we reade them, & by their truthes be more learned, by the contrary more wary. And this alſo thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man, whom you ſurmiſe to bee the only man amongſt vsus conuerſant in the Fathers. And this alſo is all our opinions. After you hauehave thus finiſhed your diſcourſe, you will now (as you ſay) without feare come into the battell and fight with vsus. You are ſtill telling vsus of armies, skirmiſhes, warres, campes and of your battailes: but you ſhould remember that the triall of warre is common to both ſides, and the iſſues of battailes vncerteine. The and of warre lieth in the ſtrength of armes, not in the ſtoutnes of words.